asking a DADT SO to go for therapy

[pamela7]

My SO is happy and accepting. Throughout our relationship we've dealt with problems along the lines of "the one who has the problem with the other has to sort it out", and it's worked really well. I've seen so many threads and members bemoaning unaccepting SO's. So here is my proposal:

the DADT SO/spouse/partner should be referred to a therapist to sort out their lack of acceptance.

My philosophy is that the only thing to be intolerant of is - intolerance.

Discuss:

[Teresa]

Pamela,
As far as my circumstances are concerned ," Pigs will fly " I've tried it three times now !!
Try convincing someone that joint therapy will help when one side believes it's not broken ! Yes maybe they are hiding something and may not wish to expose it, I can only respect that decision .

This time I prepared myself for it, I designed a gender sheet to describe exactly where I was between male and female. I then wrote a unbiased summary of my CDing history and where I am now. Finally I realised that the gender sheet needed an explanation of how my CDing started. I let my counsellor read through it to see how far off the mark I was and she could find little fault with it . In fact she showed the gender sheet to her group as a different and useful way of describing gender problems.
I picked my moment and asked my wife to read all this after, she finally read the summary sheet and realised the reality of the situation. At that point we considered if the gap between my needs and her acceptance was too wide, at that point we decided they were and decided to try a separation. I could see the idea of losing me was hurting my wife too much and the hurt and the responsibilities of my family were too much to walk away from so we decided to keep things intact, the important thing is my family know my needs and how much I've compromised my life to support them .

[taylormercedes]

I'm currently in a difficult situation with my wife, where her previous acceptance of my dressing has turned into wishing I didn't dress up anymore. Now this sudden turn around in view points of my wife had me a bit confused and I felt like she wasn't accepting me. But she did bring up a valid point during our discussion. She had asked "what if the circumstances were flipped." What if she was the one wanting to have short hair, wear men's clothes, put stubble on her face, and present as a male with a man's mannerisms, how would I feel and react to that? In her mind she married a manly guy, but now she has trouble seeing me as anything other that my female persona. It's not so much intolerance and it doesn't require therapy to "force" someone to accept but rather the SO knows who and what they are attracted to and who they want to be married to.

[Marcelle]

Hi Pamela,

I have seen this a lot on this forum . . . my SO is intolerant and she/he should just get over it and deal. In a sense there is sound logic to such a statement as remaining in relationship where one is intolerant of the other is not a sound basis for a strong relationship. Specifically, one becomes subject to the whims and fancy of the other and this will most likely cause emotional distress on some level and damage the relationship from within due to pent up resentment and anger. Those of us with accepting SOs can count ourselves very fortunate and to be honest I don't even know where I would be emotionally if my wife did not support me as she does (probably some place very bad). However, even those of us with accepting SOs are only "one straw" away from breaking the proverbial camel's back and I wonder how hard we would fight to keep that relationship alive even if that meant retreating to the closet again.

It may seem easy for us to say as Nike so aptly put "Just Do It" However, we don't truly know what each relationship where a DADT exists is comprised of and telling your SO to "just get to therapy and deal" could be that proverbial straw. Besides as the old saying goes "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink." Likewise you can tell an intolerant person to get to therapy and deal but as you know therapy only works if you want it to work . . . it is not a magic bullet to cure.

Cheers

Marcelle

[Nikkilovesdresses]

The snags are, who is to do the referring, and who is to force the reluctant SO to attend the sessions?

It all sounds a bit optimistic to me...

You're used to an SO who is accepting and open to change. Few are as fortunate!

Or, you can lead your wife or daughter, but you can't make them think.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Pam :hugs:, My wonderful:love:wife of 52yrs. is in the DA/DT mood now she tolerates my dressing,
but just don't want to see me while I'm dressed I know my boundaries and stay with-in them
and life is great.

About 15yrs. ago we went to a few therapy sessions and she didn't like what the therapist had to say.
We are both in our early 70s' and we both know that the other is not going to change. ~~...:daydreaming:...

[Lisa85]

So many issues with therapyl where most are looking for a good salesperson to sell their point of view to the other.

But the crux of this issue is the statement "My philosophy is that the only thing to be intolerant of is - intolerance."

For many this is a new commandment to be esteemed as higher than "thou shall not steal". But why shouldn't the SO ask the other to go to therapy to fix intolerance. Diversity philosophy is just that, a philosophy and definitely not even close to perceptions of right and wrong. Moreover perceptions of right and wrong are a level below right and wrong.

A much more interesting question could be posed from the Isha/Marcella experience. What has worked to help a SO move from strict DADT to more accepting of CD and say having no SO issues with her SO CDing at least two times a week. But that would be a new thread

[mykell]

hi pamela,

this is an older thread that i inquired in the loved one section,
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?229554-lack-of-interest-of-understanding&highlight=

since i have started going to support through the P-flag organization and met some professional folks, brought home business cards from them and of course some handouts from meetings....they are in my office where she can find them and offered the cards for her to see, no interest, so horse to water theory or as nikki stated you cant make them think. i offered the older thread as it has responses from our GGs in it, food for thought kinda....

[Heidi Stevens]

Hey Pam, in my case it's knowing your SO would never go to a therapist that I deal with. My last two sessions with my gender therapist have mostly dealt with my wife's set in stone views on my dressing. The therapist and I have discussed to no end on how to get my wife to ease off her position. Recently I tried a method the therapist suggested to get my wife to look at a recent photo of Heidi. (Only ones she's seen were from two years ago) the therapist thought this may give my wife a fresh view of Heidi and not the one in her mind. So I showed my wife the scenery photos from my trip to the Erie Gala last month. I then asked if she could look at one more. My wife is no slouch when it comes to a person's motives. Before I could tell here anything else, she said " is it of Heidi?" I said yes. Immediately I got a "no, thank you!" And then I was told that she never wanted to see Heidi in a photo or in person, period! I did the only thing I could do and reassure her that I would follow her wish.
What this all boils down to is if one of the parties is not budging from their beliefs, then you find ways to improve your conditions knowing they are rock solid set. That's how I've handled it. I'll continue to grow as a TG with the knowledge of where my spouse stands on the subject.

[NicoleScott]

Let's flip it.
What if my wife shops, spends, sleeps, drinks, gambles, and avoids work excessively? Any push back is considered my intolerance with her preferred lifestyle, so I should go to.....I mean be sent to.....therapy so I can learn to accept it, turning my intolerance into acceptance.

Let me guess.........that's different.

[Gabby6790]

I think asking a DADT SO to go to explore therapy is reasonable. It's doesn't have to be about them being wrong. It should be about them getting an outside non-biased opinion. I think a lot of a couples (including myself) have communication issues where one party says that the sky is blue 1000x times but the other doesn't believe it. Then a good friend could say the sky is blue and all of a sudden they get it.

It is amazing to me how strong society norms are. There are so many stories of otherwise amazing relationships having issues because of the kind of clothes one party wants to wear. I am finding it tough to swallow as I understand more about myself.

Oh, and regarding the flip the tables argument, I get it and have thought about it. My answer is that it would be weird but ultimately I would be accepting of something that doesn't harm our family.

[Sandra]

So here is my proposal:

the DADT SO/spouse/partner should be referred to a therapist to sort out their lack of acceptance.



Really, maybe she just doesn't want to accept and she has that right to do that.

[STACY B]

How could the SO go to therapy? If it's a DON'T ASK-- DON'T TELL ? How could you ask or tell them? Must be Mind work,, If they don't want to see you dressed or have anything to do with it I don't think they subject themselves to a therapist much less a Gender therapist,,,lol,,, There not the one with the problem, You would have to agree to be in a Do ask Do tell relationship,lol,,,,,,

[Anne K]

Ouch, Nicole! You described my first wife! When I pushed back, she demanded that I go to therapy. After a couple years, I decided that it was time to move on. A hard decision after 20 years. I have never looked back. BTW, I was totally in the closet, so CD was not an issue.

[BLUE ORCHID]

My wife is no slouch when it comes to a person's motives. Before I could tell here anything else, she said " is it of Heidi?" I said yes. Immediately I got a "no, thank you!" And then I was told that she never wanted to see Heidi in a photo or in person, period! I did the only thing I could to and reassure her that I would follow her wish.
What this all boils down to is if one of the parties is not budging from their beliefs, then you find ways to improve your conditions knowing they are rock solid set. That's how I've handled it. I'll continue to grow as a TG with the knowledge of where my spouse stands on the subject.

Hi Heidi:hugs:, It sure sounds like you really are stuck between a ROCK and a HARD PLACE .~~...:daydreaming:...

[pamela7]

i guess it is optimistic. i'm lucky, yes. and addressing Nicole's post, the issues that do arise come about in terms of causing harm - i can see our habits out of control can do that, that's why these things go two ways. I don't see a therapist as an advisor, more as someone who asks the questions that allows the judger to release their perceptions. you can't force anyone to do anything, else its a harm. in our case we agreed in the beginning to process everything that ever came up between us, which has kept love life as clear and strong as day 1; removing the non-acceptances works - for us. We also do have the f2m child.

Responding to the excellent question as to "what if my SO wanted to dress/do the male thing?" She really did that earlier in her life, or as close to. i'm the one in dresses, she's the one in jeans, and she loves doing the normally man-things too. To quote Captain America, "we're with eachother to the end of the line".

[Suzie Petersen]

Pam: My SO is happy and accepting. Throughout our relationship we've dealt with problems along the lines of "the one who has the problem with the other has to sort it out", and it's worked really well. I've seen so many threads and members bemoaning unaccepting SO's. So here is my proposal:

the DADT SO/spouse/partner should be referred to a therapist to sort out their lack of acceptance.

My philosophy is that the only thing to be intolerant of is - intolerance.

Discuss:

If I am reading your post right, it is along the lines of "I will do whatever I want and if you dont like it, thats your problem!".
I really to think you two have a very different relationship than most of us married people, or at least, one of you do!
In my view, your philosophy is built on a selfish and ego-centered nature and, to me at least, that is not what a marriage is about. I really dont think that attitude would fly in most marriages.

I think what is missing in your philosophy, to make it acceptable, is the word "Reasonable". If the idea is that each party should be able to do anything that is Reasonable, then if the other has a problem with it, the other should work on that. But if you include all things under that same umbrella, then you are saying that the other should just accept whatever you come up with! For instance: One wants to spend all the household money on something for him/her-self, or One wants to go have sex with the neighbor, or One wants to go on a vacation alone for a month ... etc etc. You cannot, with any reason, say that if the other doesnt like these things, he/she just need to get some help and just get used to it!

For the CD situation specifically, it is not Reasonable to make it the wife's problem if she cannot, or will not, accept this part of you.
I am not saying it is not a good idea to try and get some help to better understand the hubby's needs, but that is a far cry from just making it her problem to deal with.
I have also read many a story here and other places about the wife not being interested in talking to a therapist about this. My own wife was the same way, she had no interest, or willingness, to meet with someone she perceived to be the enemy and who wanted to talk her into something she was fundamentally against.
We did talk to 2 outsides many years ago, both people she chose specifically because she was convinced they would be on her side. I took the chance that maybe, just maybe, they would be Reasonable and also see it from my side and we could work toward a compromise, but I was wrong and she made god choices. Both took her side 100% and nothing good came from it.
So should I have followed your philosophy, I should have told her "tough deal", I am doing what I want and you can go get some help dealing with it, it is your problem, not mine!
Sure, I can see that approach having an effect, but at least in my marriage, it would not be a good effect and I would not find it reasonable to demand that of her when I can clearly see that I am the one who is causing the issue in the first place.
You can also turn it around and say that I am the one who have trouble accepting her rejection of it .. so who should get therapy?

I wonder if WelshGirl actually agree with you on this? But then again, if she doesnt, that is her problem .. right! ;-)

Suzie

[Eryn]

The problem with this concept is that the DADT spouse will feel that there is nothing wrong with her position. She views the TG spouse as "having the problem" and allowing the DADT relationship as her magnanimous concession to it.

Having established an "armed truce" by agreeing to DADT, the TG spouse has also agreed to not discuss the issue further. Breaking that agreement will invariably result in an initial negative reaction.

Perhaps a better approach is for the TG spouse to start therapy, attend a few sessions, and then invite the DADT spouse along for a joint session. No guarantees, but a neutral third party might swing the pendulum a bit.

Another approach, if one is going out regularly, is to develop a relationship and a social life with an accepting couple. The presence of an accepting spouse, as well as the ability to talk frankly to someone in a similar position, can be beneficial. Talking about how much fun you had at the dinner, concert, movie, etc. (not simply being dressed at these events!) can demonstrate that other couples are making the most of the situation.

[xNicolex]

Don't ask don't tell oh hell :brolleyes: everyone reacts different to this, I told my now fiance at the begging of our relationship it almost split us apart :sad: But that was because she googled for information and unfortunately she found sexual content first which did not help at all :eek: but after sitting her down and talking to her to help her see it did not change me as person or change my feelings for her and was not a threat to her in any way she soon grew with the idea and is now fully supportive, she even helps me shop :daydreaming: as for therapy well what ever works for you personally I think the middle man is for some women at least more in the way of questions they really want to ask like are you gay or do you find me attractive anymore. It is a very sensitive area that must be approached with caution but in opinion the DADT option is for some a fair compromise but still technically hiding but thats just my :2c:

[pamela7]

@Suzie, Welshgirl would respond if she wanted/chose to. I don't think your reading is right, but then as i did not use enough words to explain how it works in practice, not surprisingly judgemental of me/us.

There was a time, for about a year, when she went out one evening a week to meet with an old male friend of hers, and for the first time in my life I felt jealous. It was my problem, my trust issue, I had to deal with it. He was bigger/taller, better with words, good with charming and it triggered my responses. If you think that it's egocentric for the person having an emotional reaction to something to be the one to deal with it, then you have little understanding of how emotions work and how deeper healing is achieved by processing them through.

It's the same with the "emotional attachment" to the crossdressing; I have processed and reprocessed it; it wasn't WG's problem, though certainly she had to deal with the consequences, and she processed what she needed to in her reaction. The underlying love and trust, tested over years of being there for eachother in life-threatening situations, provides the platform for this. I guess if a DADT arises from years of closet secrecy the trust has been flawed though. Food for though.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

...each party should be able to do anything that is Reasonable, then if the other has a problem with it, the other should work on that.

But 'reasonable' is subjective! To many people, it's reasonable to push to the front of a line; to others it's reasonable to use terrorism to bring about social change, or to tax hardworking people at a rate in excess of 50%, or to award hundreds of millions of pounds to a wife who has done nothing but spend her husband's money since the day they married.

Reasonable doesn't exist. What it's really about is love. Love can shift the goalposts like nothing else.

[Suzie Petersen]

Pam,

I realize it might seem like I am deliberately being judgmental of you, but that is not actually it. It is more that I am .. intrigued .. by how different people in this world are. Not specifically the T* spectrum, but all over. I have often wondered why it is we humans just cannot seem to get along, on a global level, but constantly seem to be drawn into conflict of one kind or another. One would think we would have the same basic instincts, desires, dreams and general outlook on life, but I am finding that this is not at all the case. Not to draw any comparisons of course, but the current terror uprisings in several parts of the world are an example of this. To me, and anybody I am around, these are horrible and unacceptable acts, yet there are apparently some people out there who find it perfectly acceptable and a great victory both to perform these actions and even to die as a result! I find it close to unbelievable that we can be that different.

Anyway, that was a stray thought, a little off the path.

I am interested in hearing yours, and everybody elses, opinion about these things, so I just took your invitation to discuss.


Pam: If you think that it's egocentric for the person having an emotional reaction to something to be the one to deal with it, then you have little understanding of how emotions work and how deeper healing is achieved by processing them through.

No, I dont think that.
First of all, you got it turned around there! The egocentric behavior I was talking about was when the person having the emotional reaction, ie you in your example, is told (referred) to just go and see a therapist and get over it, by the person who is doing something that causes the commotion, ie your wife in your example.

If the person who is having a problem with the other persons behavior is able to deal with these feelings, either on her/his own or through help from someone else, then thats fine of course, _IF_ that person understand that the feelings are irrational or unreasonable and actually desire to grow and learn and find a way to be more accepting.
Maybe your words just didnt clearly express what you meant to say, but your choice of words in your original post sounded more like the person who struggled with the other persons behavior should just be told go deal with it and get over it. That seems very insensitive and ego_centered to me:


Pam: the DADT SO/spouse/partner should be referred to a therapist to sort out their lack of acceptance.
My philosophy is that the only thing to be intolerant of is - intolerance.

Your example of the jealousy situation is a good and interesting one because it is a well known and common situation many people have felt. It is not in any way deviant in nature and it is understood by most people, weather they have felt it or not. This makes it very different from the CD situation, if I may add!
But it is interesting because both parties can actually do something to remedy the situation.

Jealousy can be a very powerful feeling and it can lead people to do some very bad things if it gets out of hand. So who should "fix" the problem in the scenario you described?
Both can do something to solve the issue. The partner who is feeling jealousy can try to realize that there is nothing to be worried about and that the relationship is not at risk, assuming that is in fact true, and that is of course the problem! How do you know that?
The partner who is going out with someone else now and then, for whatever reason, can also stop the problem by realizing that her actions are causing severe distress and potential long term damage to the relationship, not to mention the potential for violent or stupid actions by the jealous partner. She needs to consider if her friendship with the other male is so important that she is OK with having her SO/hubby suffer like this. If she is actually cheating on her SO and is having a sexual relationship with the other male, then this story gets a lot longer and the problem gets bigger.

Back to the original topic. I think my reason to respond to you is the notion, that the huge problem of an unaccepting wife/gf, can be easily solved by simply "referring" her to a therapist, and that she just need to deal with it her self and get with the program, is a little on the naive or even insensitive side. For most people it is not that simple, not at all.
I know from your previous writings that you do have a rare ability to not care too much what others think, for instance regarding peoples reaction to your dress code, and I think some of that nature shines through here as well. You have the ability to completely justify your own actions and thereby, obviously, if someone else has a problem with it, ie your wife, then it is simply their/her problem to solve. But for most of the rest of us it is more complex than that. We might be struggling with both the justification of the dressing and also with making it our wifes problem.

I do not intend to be judgmental of you with this, I am just observing that your views are different than most peoples, because they are based on a different set of norms. I sometimes wish I could be more like that, care less about what others think of me or about anything for that matter, but I am not good at that and I often complicate my life significantly by trying to be and do what the world around me expect of me.

- Suzie

EDIT:
Nikki: We were typing at the same time there :-) Very true, reasonable is very subjective and that makes it difficult, but I still believe there are subjects that fall in the "Definitely reasonable" and in the "Definitely unreasonable" category. For instance, it is Reasonable to go fishing or golfing a few times every month, but Unreasonable to go all weekend every weekend.
Yes, love shifts goalposts, but even the definition of Love will vary from individual to individual. To me, love is putting your partner above your own needs and wants .... within reason ;-)

[Stephanie47]

So, the wife needs therapy because her cross dressing husband does not want to accept his wife's desire to NOT participate in any manner his desire to wear women's clothing. Did the husband makes a full disclosure prior to say "I do" that he has a desire to wear women's clothing? Or was he a "late boomer?" Is it possible the husband has some issues himself such as lacking the self confidence to venture forth into the world attired as a woman? So, rather than addressing his fears with a therapist he should have his wife go to therapy so he can be able to be en femme around her? "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" does not imply the wife does not know her husband is a cross dresser. That's a different story. That's where the wife truly has no clue. He is afraid for some reason to come clean and tell his wife he likes to wear women's clothing because she may not or will not accept that side of him or maybe he has not accepted himself.

If you want to impose your cross dressing upon a non accepting wife, then, just perhaps the husband is in need of therapy to find out what motivates him to disregard his wife's desire to NOT be part of it.

Many years ago my wife told me, "If you want to go fishing go ahead. Just don't expect me to clean it!"

[Tracii G]

Another example of pushing their CDing on a spouse that wants no part of it.
If you are in a DADT relationship its pretty much a done deal and you agreed to it.
Now you want to go back and tell them they need therapy?

Also another example how none of us can agree on anything.

[Tina_gm]

DADT.... That is not necessarily a bad thing. If- the CDer agrees to this type of arrangement, then their partner may not have any particularly ill feeling, or any real need for "therapy". The CDer who wants more than a DADT, but their partner does not, just having the non CD partner get therapy may not resolve much. It could just be, depending on the partner, how long after a relationship has been established, how it came to be found out or told.... So many variables besides just this feminine thing. How strong is the feminine aspects of the CDer? How much do they want or need?

My wife has told me several times that the feminine part of this is ONLY a part of her struggle. Just as much, probably more comes from a feeling of betrayal. Lack of or broken trust, a feeling of not knowing who they are really with. What lies may have been told. How long they were told. Those issues belong in the therapy session if there is a need for one a lot more than getting over it of the feminine aspects.

Lastly, the non CD partner is wired as individually as anyone else is. Some will have a greater ability to deal with it than others. Women who are into the strong masculine type of men are likely to have a harder time dealing with it all, and it might just be that a DADT is the best they are capable of. THAT is not a bad thing, or wrong IMO. If DADT keeps a marriage or LTR intact and healthy in the other aspects, best to leave it alone. It is not the end of the world.

[Adelaide]

I tried the therapist route before, following my SO's suggestion. She thought it would help me stop CDing. On the contrary, it made me feel more confident than ever. I felt so comfortable with the therapist that I dressed up at the 3rd session. The therapist invited my SO to join us for our 5th session. She mentioned to my SO that I was really a beautiful woman inside & out. That she should accept me for who I really am, and also support me, embrace it and participate! I was ecstatic...until my SO blew up in front of the therapist. That was the end of the session....and CDing has been a major source of disagreement between my SO and me ever since...
Hopefully, my "therapist " story will not happened to anybody here on the forum....

[LelaK]

I wanted to get counseling with my SO. She didn't like the idea, but she tentatively consented a couple of times. Then I found a "counselor" who makes Youtube videos and he said counseling is not a good idea, if you want to stay in your relationship, because they have a poor track record on that score. He said couples often end up breaking up after doing counseling. He said he helps couples stay together, if one of them wants to. So that made me leary of getting counseling.

[Eryn]

Tiptoeing as gently as I can...

Like it or not, a DADT relationship carries with it the implication that the CDing spouse is doing something wrong, that should be hidden and not talked about. By accepting that relationship the CDing spouse is validating the implication.

This is not, in my opinion, a healthy way to carry on a marriage. When a person feels it is more important to maintain their idealized image of how they want their spouse to be than it is to know and love the actual person it does not indicate health.

That said, it is unlikely that someone who is convinced that their CDing spouse is doing something wrong will be amenable to change. It's very sad, but that person's lack of empathy will block any attempt to reach her. It's a Korean situation, where the war has been fought to a standstill, but hostilities lie just below the surface.

[sometimes_miss]

My wife and I initially looked online and found a therapist that specialized in both gender issues and substance abuse (my wife's mom was an alcoholic); she was very accepting, and was helpful. However, she got my wife into support groups where she started seeing everyone who WASN'T in the support group as someone who was trying to abuse her. First she blamed her mom; then her dad for enabling her mom; then it was her brothers, then she saw abusive behavior in her coworkers and boss; then it became me. Everyone had become her enemies, she looked for potential abuse 'behind every tree'; and, of course, she found it. She was going some type of
codependent meetings every free night. When I suggested that perhaps she was overdoing it, her response was to accuse me of trying to get her to stop going to her meetings, and that she was warned that i would try to do that by the people at her meetings, and that it was because i was trying to control her life. Things kept spiriling down out of control, the therapist didn't know what to do, and we eventually wound up in a divorce. Of course it was all my fault, and she blackmailed me for our assets during the divorce by threatening to out me to my family, friends and coworkers, and she had the pictures of me dressed as a woman, so she could do it.

So it may help, it may not. It all depends on the couple. If she thinks that it's YOUR problem, then it probably will be a tough road ahead of you, even if she does go with you. At least that was my experience.

[char GG]

Why is it that because the SO is unaccepting, they are the one with the problem?

From my limited experience, it's not the so much the "dressing" that causes an SO's lack of acceptance but the behavior that sometimes accompanies the dressing. If that is the case, who needs the therapy?

Intolerance usually comes with a reason behind it. The reason needs to be examined before it can be determined that the SO has the problem.

[NicoleScott]

In a DADT relationship there is no implication that the CDing spouse is doing something wrong, as Eryn suggested. Over the years I have read many posts mischaracterizing DADT and then telling us why DADT doesn't work. In the OP, suggesting therapy for a DADT spouse is itself a violation of DADT. There is a mutually acknowledged incompatibility between his need to crossdress and her need to see him as her man - all man - and DADT is the arrangement that accommodates both. DADT isn't for everyone, but it works for those who make it work. There is no implication in marriage vows that both parties must be fully engaged in everything together. We are still individuals. I like the go fish-clean fish example.

[pamela7]

@Suzie, thank you for your lengthy reply. I agree we do all have different perspectives, our world are shaped by nature and nurture to make unique beings with vastly diverse perspectives. If I were intrigued I would ask more questions and make less judgements.

My relative indifference to others' perceptions of me (i'm not completely invulnerable :-)), comes from years of processing that removed most of life's conditioning. I know we can only see our reflection in others, I know that no-one's going to see me as i am unless they're a buddha, but what i can ask, and normally do have in agreement with people with whom i relate, that we do accept each other as we are, that we don't judge. [It's a diversion but the "game" of "crime and punishment" is played out in a fractal worldwide and i try not to be part of if.]

As Nikki says, only love is the basis. What I find in the DADT is that the person loved the image of her "lumberjack man" on the outside, not the pink lacy's hidden beneath the rugged exterior. It seems to me its not the whole person/being being loved. Welshgirl loves me wherever my TG goes, and the love goes both ways. The "go see a therapist" is done lovingly, but then we can help eachother there by using our own process.

It took months-to-years of me proving that we would talk and sort and process before it normed and the deeper trust and acceptance emerged from realising how emotions and projections work and how to escape the patterns inherited mainly from parenting.

Going back to the perceived indifference, while I do put it out there like that, given a tough shell, the sensitive inners still have to deal with. So while someone may make a comment i know says more of them, I take the time to look inside me too. What the world shows me, is me, so i do my best to understand what i'm being shown, and become ever more accepting of others.

The stories i could tell - recovering drugs barons going straight, abusers reformed into loving males, torture abandoned for clean question patterns. I reserve my jousting for tilting at authorities by and large, :-) xxx

PS I'd still like to see a good argument for DADT

[Lorileah]

PS I'd still like to see a good argument for DADT

because when mama's not happy...nobody is happy? :idontknow:

[pamela7]

ah, so it's emotional blackmail and sex for good behaviour, huh?

[Eryn]

In a DADT relationship there is no implication that the CDing spouse is doing something wrong, as Eryn suggested....I like the go fish-clean fish example.

In the DADT relationships I have observed the enforced separation is far more than non-participation. It often extends to prohibition of any mention of CDing or sign that the partner engages in the practice. I doubt that any spouse would go so far as to prohibit any mention of fishing or to force the fishing spouse to keep their tackle and boat completely out of sight lest their friends and neighbors get some inkling that a fisherman might live there.

Since CDing is handled in a manner so different from any other activity there is an obvious implication that the spouse thinks that CDing is wrong.

[NicoleScott]

OK, Eryn, fair enough. In the fishing example there is no prohibition against talking about it. But the point of the example is that one person's interest or passion doesn't require participation or acceptance from the spouse.
But there is no obvious implication that the wife thinks CDing is wrong, it's just not in the best interest of their relationship for her to see her man dressed as a woman, so she chooses not to see it while knowing he does it privately.
Most importantly, if DADT works for a couple, then it works, if only for them.

[JessieA]

I think my idea of what a good therapist would do are a little different. I do not expect a therapist to fix or change someone's mind. Their job is to help you identify the feelings and reason behind them so they can be sorted out for some to better deal with. You could very well reach the same decision but at least understand why and where to go from there. I think too many people have the idea when you suggest talking to therapist you are saying your broken and this person will fix you the way I want. If some how you can over come these feeling you might have better luck at getting some people talk to someone.

[pamela7]

yes JessieA,

The idea is the therapist enables the client e.g. to discover the origins of a response, it's never about fixing the person, its rather about helping the symptoms(signals) to do their job, to reveal the big bang origins of the background radiations of life.

[Kate T]

I dislike DADT. I think it originates in a lack of communication that I personally could not cope with in an intimate relationship.

BUT beware Pamela (and others). Beware you do not fall into the trap of patronising an SO. You do not know that couples circumstances. Maybe the CD individual is also very selfish and thinks of nothing other than him/herself when crossdressing. Maybe the SO is treated like something of an optional extra, a handbag if you like to complete the fantasy for the CD? Maybe the CD cannot express their feelings or needs without either getting angry or sulking (both situations have been described in relationships on these forums).

So, if you and your SO are in a DADT relationship, DONT tell them or ask them to go to therapy. You BOTH need therapy, together. DADT is a communication problem between two individuals, not one individuals problem to be "fixed" like a stuck door.

[Eryn]

...So, if you and your SO are in a DADT relationship, DONT tell them or ask them to go to therapy. You BOTH need therapy, together. DADT is a communication problem between two individuals, not one individuals problem to be "fixed" like a stuck door.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, but it is a tough nut to crack. A spouse who believes that CDing is deviant behavior will view any attempt to sway her view as trying to make her into a deviant as well, similar to an drug addict attempting to get their spouse hooked on drugs.

I do know some married couples who are not TG who are also very disconnected from each other. They even go so far as to have separate vacations and won't be in communication for days! So, lack of communication isn't just a TG issue.

[Allsteamedup]

Quite often when SOs do make it as far as some support they still find it difficult to express their confusion, anger, emotional distress and bewilderment to another woman. If you go to a therapist you at least want to feel that you have a point of view or something to say and bewilderment and confusion prevent this.

The notion that the SO seeking therapy will change her mind is amusing. Does the OP not realise that a therapist could equally reinforce any misconceptions expressed, that the person needing the therapy would then become himself....

What has happened to those seeking counselling is that they get an expansive overview of the situation which then has to be reduced to what the cder sees as where he fits. So the SO gets a huge amount of information which goes well beyond that her partner wishes to dress and then they both have to work out what it means for them. This does not always reach a better situation than they had in the first place!

Now that it has become acceptable on here for a SO to say she does not wish at the present time to be accepting perhaps some cders might like to take a closer look at this. At support groups you have like-minded friends who are very supportive; it is not that you are alone.

As a footnote I would like to add that a better situation can arrive at the twinkling of an eye. It would appear to be a matter of circumstances and timing.

And to Adelaide, whatever it was your wife shouted at the therapist, at least it left you in no doubt as to her feelings on your problems. That gave you something to work with.

[Tina_gm]

Pamela- you asked earlier in this thread for someone to make an argument for DADT. I don't think anyone is going to be able to produce an argument that DADT is the better way to go for a CDer. Perhaps though, it is a compromise of a difficult situation, often made in part by the CDer who did not reveal for many years, or was discovered after many years. The partner was deceived. They were not given the truth, or the information about their partner they should have had when making the decision to commit to a relationship.

If there is one thing that sometimes really bugs me with attitudes on here when it comes to wives and partners, is that they should just deal. A CDer lives a lie for years and years, finally comes out and then when their partner is having difficulties of having the dynamics of the marriage or relationship changed on them without any consent, the answer is to tell the partner to go to therapy to get fixed??

DADT isn't the best way for a CDer, not usually. Although there have been a few on here who have said they prefer their wife or GF not to be involved.... Sometimes, it is a workable solution given the circumstances. I do not have a true DADT arrangement with my wife, we do talk, but I like many, revealed after marriage. It didn't go over to well. Not just because there is a dynamic of me that she never knew (although that one is not easy for my wife by any means) but also the lack of trust as a consequence for the years of deception. The feelings of betrayal. My wife not knowing the man she married the way she thought she did. I did that. The problems are every bit mine as they are hers for the difficulties. I caused all of this with my deception. I take it upon myself to offer limitations I might not otherwise have with my dressing as a result of what I did. I owe my wife that. I do not dress in her presence. If I had told her from the beginning, and allow her to make a decision based on the whole truth rather than a deception, then I could give her the ultimatum of this is who I am, take it or leave it. If you are having problems with it, go to therapy because you are having problems dealing with it but don't want to leave me....

We are asking a lot from our partners when it comes to CDing. And not just to buck all of the society norms and expectations. We are also asking them to go against the grain of what they were literally born with. Partners of CDers literally have to be able to re write their own internal born genetic programming. Some are more capable of going opposite of society and to be able to deal with their own internal stuff than others. CDing is a very difficult thing for most people to deal with, especially partners of CDers.

Lastly, for those who may be somewhat new on here, maybe new to CDing itself, and the needs are not great.... say just a few hours of some dress up time every couple of weeks or maybe even less. Otherwise they are fine with their male identity, I think these people shouldn't be thinking or feeling like they need some grand acceptance from their partners. Life for the most part will not change much, so for these people, a DADT arrangement is hardly going to change much for them anyway. Why rock a boat that sails mostly in calm waters?? If a person finds their needs to be greater, that their identity is as much female or perhaps more, then perhaps getting past a DADT arrangement is probably in their best interest.

[Krisi]

"My philosophy is that the only thing to be intolerant of is - intolerance."

That's a pretty intolerant statement in itself. Suppose I decided to have a mistress and keep her in our house. Should my wife be tolerant of that? Most folks would say no, she doesn't have to tolerate that.

Suppose I started drinking heavily and beating my wife. Again, should my wife be tolerant of that? Most folks would say no, she doesn't have to tolerate that.

It may be difficult for crossdressers to understand this, but many people think crossdressing is perverted or weird. Many think it's a mental illness.

The bottom line is, the DADT relationship is a compromise between acceptance and divorce or giving up the crossdressing. If it works for some people, why would you change it?

[ReineD]

the DADT SO/spouse/partner should be referred to a therapist to sort out their lack of acceptance.

There are two forms of DADT:

1. "I know that you crossdress and I realize you need a wardrobe and the time to do this. I'm happy to cooperate, but I prefer to not see you dressed. So, can we work on a compromise where I will keep busy while you CD, or you can go out without me."

2. "I don't want to know about it, I don't want to see any evidence, I want to keep my head in the sand and if I do see evidence of it I'll leave you."

Pamela ... should both these wives seek therapy, in your opinion?

My opinion: I think therapists would agree with wife #1's compromise, since both spouses in this scenario are free to honor their internal landscapes, no one is being forced to do anything they don't want to do.

And since the therapist's function is to help a person be true to themselves, chances are the therapist would encourage wife #2 to leave the relationship if she cannot live with the CDing, knowing that the likelihood of getting her husband to stop is slim.

[NicoleScott]

Getting someone to agree to go to counseling would be easier than sending them to therapy. Look up the definitions and see why. Is non-acceptance a disorder in need of therapy?

[pamela7]

yes Reine, in those two scenarios i agree with you. there is a plentiful middle ground though, where perhaps there is room to come to some level of understanding or acceptance - or non-acceptance.

Nicole, I'm not going to split hairs on semantics between counselling/therapy/coaching/personal development/group support network. I'm sure a decent coach or counsellor would be sufficient for the purpose, and that's what I meant, if i did not explicitly say.

[NicoleScott]

Pamela, my point was that to suggest talking to a counselor would be better received than saying you have a mental disorder in need of treatment. (Even if the "counseling" is to be done by a "therapist")

[ReineD]

yes Reine, in those two scenarios i agree with you. there is a plentiful middle ground though, where perhaps there is room to come to some level of understanding or acceptance - or non-acceptance.

If a wife is so turned off the CDing that she does not even want to entertain the thought that her husband might crossdress, even if she is not involved, (which according to stats is a low percentage of women), I'm afraid that no amount of counseling or coaching would help ... just as no amount of counseling or coaching would convince a husband that he does not want or need to crossdress any more.

A case like this would indicate major incompatibilities between this couple, and a divorce might be the best option so they can each find partners who are more compatible. Certainly, people divorce for all kinds of incompatibility reasons (differences of opinions about money management, lifestyles, feeling they don't love each other any more, feeling their needs are no longer being by their partners, etc). Often, couples simply cannot come to an agreement.

[Nikki Elle]

This is a hard topic to pin down unless the DADT situation is defined:

variations
1) One person cooks the best chicken dish, the other doesn't like chicken - should this be a secret
2) One person has a drug problem but only indulges one day per year - should the this be a secret
3) The CD dresses one time per year - should this be a secret
4) The CD dresses every time the wife leave the house (even if there is only time for lipstick or a bra) - should this be a secret

We are discussing specifics about a general definition.

My answer: cross dressing on a regular basis (you can define frequency) would be a major paradigm shift for the SO, especially the more years that pass by in secret. Is it a good idea overall, "NO" but there are always circumstances that contradict. How many "family secrets" are kept to preserve the peace, marriage, appearances; it just happens to be the cross dressing is an extreme on the acceptance list. Marriage/relationships are more fluid today than in the past and dissolving one and beginning a new one barely raises an eyebrow in most circles. The best case is full disclosure up front, but when years go by it's tricky and I would never advise anyone without knowing both parties and the situation in great detail.

Final comment: counselors, therapists, etc come in all flavors and competence; and unfortunately are influenced by there personal viewpoints