Why If We Are Known to Have Once Lived as Men, Folks Won't Accept Us as 'Real' Women?

[Beth-Lock]

The title I have chosen is bold and perhaps controversial, but let us just take a look at it anyway. Maybe there is something to be learned from it, even if it is not true.

It seems to me, that some personality traits or other personal traits, of even a having a "history," seems to taint us in the eyes of others. Like, what does having big hands got to do with being masculine or feminine? Why do people even want to look at our hands, at least, once they hear from someone that we are or may be transwomen? One elderly woman, even rejected the idea a transwoman at the church could be a woman, because her hands were too big, "for a woman." Well, since she was a professional music teacher, it is unlikely she would have been so good at that, if her hands weren't big enough to span enough keys on the piano. But what on earth does it have to do with being a"real' woman, or something. An excellent pianist perhaps, but a real or natural woman? I got to know a cis-woman who had been teased and perhaps a little bullied, in school, because she was quite tall, and a bit hulking. But surely, once one is long out of school, could folks not just leave that nonsense behind? I mean judging someone on something superficial.

I think there is a general rule somewhere in what is behind this. Something about tainting and too much information here, and a general principle too. We trans are not alone in being tainted in some strange way by our past history. Recently a new friend asked me, and persistently, in a way hard to evade,where my parents were from, and eventually, clarified the query, by asking what I was ethnically. Does this matter? Would I be unwelcome to go out and eat with, if say, I had said I was from Switzerland, generations ago, and they might be afraid I was too enthusiastic about Yodeling? Wouldn't I be embarrassing if I could not control it, and shouted to them, from a distance too far to ordinarily be heard, and so might try yodeling so it would carry better? If instead, I answered, I was Ukrainian, long ago, would that matter? Would they be wary of inviting me to a Russian restaurant, in case I suddenly embarrassed them, by getting up from the table, and doing that dance shown in the Nutcracker Suite ballet, as dancing on the seat of one's pants, a Ukrainian folk dance of some physical virtuosity as well as likely to attract some unwanted attention to us, in public, for that reason alone? Like, what does my ethnic history have to do with anything? So, what does my gender history have to do with anything or need to be known in advance, to anybody I am not going to be intimate with?

Why is this important to us? If this is right, it may mean that in waiting for society to become more accepting of us as "real" women, we may have to wait a very long time indeed. It also may point to ways we can fight, dodge or avoid this sort of tainting. An even worse problem, is how much of our thinking about ourselves and our personal story of transition, is distorted (or tainted, in a way), in our own minds, because we want only to accept a theory that may not be correct, just because it makes it harder by those who accept that theory, on our urging, to taint us. Is that where our faith in the gender binary comes in, accepted perhaps more as a useful myth rather than examined carefully for logical proof, by many transwomen?

[Sara Jessica]

Attack of a body part in defense of what it is to be a woman is nothing compared with the low-hanging fruit of chromosomes which many haters are quite quick to dish out.

Perhaps garnering societal acceptance of trans women will be a necessary stepping stone towards acceptance as simply women (without the adjective, of course).

[ReineD]

I don’t know that I’d use the word "taint". It’s more like "disbelief", in my opinion. I think it has less to do with individual physical characteristics (like height or large hands that vary among individuals anyway), and more to do with birth sex.

I think some/many/most (?) people have difficulty accepting or believing that gender identity can be different from one’s birth sex. There aren’t enough individuals in most people’s daily lives who experience GD and follow through with full transition, to make the condition evident and therefore generally accepted as true.

Transsexualism is obviously discussed at length and accepted in the T community and it is studied in pertinent academic spheres, but it doesn’t come up much in the general population other than as rare instances like Kaytlin Jenner and other people in the news/tabloids. I think that many people do look upon Jenner et al as being brave and have the attitude, "Good on her for following her heart", but deep down I suspect they feel that Jenner was born with some sort of affliction that would cause her to reject her male body; they may recognize that she needs to do this, but I think that a lot of people feel she is somewhat disillusioned, in other words, they believe that she really is a male but she cannot see this even though they may accept that she needs to transition. This results in looking upon her differently than as a genetic female.

I’m using Jenner as an example, because the wide reporting of her coming out earlier this year gave me the opportunity to ask many people who are not familiar with our community, what they thought of her and transition in general. I was limited to people I know in the US and Canada, so I don’t know if general populations in Europe, Australia, or other parts of the world feel the same way.

That said, I believe that the people who are exposed at length to transitioned individuals, for example coworkers or family members, do cease to look upon them eventually as belonging to the gender associated with their birth sex. I believe they construct a hybrid third gender in their minds to classify them into which results in being thought of, not as "her" or "him" in the same way as genetic females or males (for MtFs and FtMs), but as "one who has become her or him". In other words, I don’t think that people ever forget the birth sex if they know about it. This doesn’t mean they look upon a transitioner unfavorably.

:2c:

[PaulaQ]

I believe that people who know about my past, but never saw it, view it with disbelief. Sure, some don't - I had a thread about an "ally" who inquired about my surgical status - because she felt it necessary to be a "real woman."

Seriously though, I think some people I know forget about or don't believe my past. This may sound impossible, but all my life I've known people who forget about my handicap. Maybe I'm just lucky, or good at finding such people. I've had a lifetime of practice.

I will say that someone who treats me as some type of third gender would find themselves cut from my life rather quickly. I'm a woman - I know it, and if you tell me you feel otherwise, I'll talk to you about it, but if you persist, then we're done.

As for men, there are guys out there who just see us as women. They are hard to find, but they are out there. My boyfriend is totally straight - there is no way he'd be with another dude. I wouldn't care if he was bi, just pointing out that he really does NOT like men. You might claim he's more accepting because he's trans, but I don't think so. In my experience, many trans people are THE WORST about refusing to date other trans, especially the straight ones, but I know trans lesbians who refuse to be with another pre-op trans woman.

I'll be honest, my experience with people who view me as something else, neither really man or woman also tend to be the ones ho tend to view me as not a human being really, and might not be so disturbed if I were murdered. (Keep in mind, I live in Texas...)

[MissDanielle]

I just recently came to terms over the last month with being trans. Even though I have yet to start HRT (living situation won't allow me until February), my closest friends are already accepting me as one of the girls. I'm really lucky in that I have a number of friends that are psychologists.

[LeaP]

... how much of our thinking about ourselves and our personal story of transition, is distorted (or tainted, in a way), in our own minds, because we want only to accept a theory that may not be correct, just because it makes it harder by those who accept that theory, on our urging, to taint us. Is that where our faith in the gender binary comes in, accepted perhaps more as a useful myth rather than examined carefully for logical proof, by many transwomen?

One only need look into themselves to discover whether they are chasing a myth or not. Are you?

[PretzelGirl]

Interesting points. I am in the same situation as Paula as there are situations I am certain I am being treated as a woman. Others are vague enough that I am treated as a person and gender is irrelevant to the situation. I generally feel that this is across the board. If others view me as a third gender, they aren't showing it (okay, maybe in the trans* community as that is the lens we view each other through sometimes).

And in keeping with what I think Lea's point is, we are very good at looking for the enemy all the time. To the point where we see something that either isn't there or not a large as it seems. It probably comes from the same mind's eye we went through where we won't believe the positive outcomes we do achieve post transition or post HRT. I do believe that to move on and really enjoy life, you have to let go of the bogeyman, real or imagined. If you are always looking for a problem, there will always be a problem. And lord knows we do have enough of those already.

[ReineD]

Except you are not just at the bottom of their list of females to date, but men, nice straight men, don't even want you on their list, in their little black book. I would call that looking on you "unfavourably.".

Maybe we disagree on the meaning of the word "unfavorable". These men may not want you as a girlfriend/wife because deep down they don’t believe you are a real girl (if they cannot separate your birth sex from your gender), but this doesn’t mean they dislike you as a person or think less of you because you transitioned?

I think you should meet people who don’t know your past and who don’t know anyone who will tell them. But then the question arises (provided you’ve had SRS and there are no "tells"), should you tell a prospective male partner that you transitioned?

There have been a few discussions about this in this section and people were divided as to the best course of action to take.

[Contessa]

I feel as a woman. Whether I am a woman is only true in my feelings. I will never be an actual CIS gendered woman. So I can only live out the rest of my life as a trans woman. That needs to be understood by me and others that see me as I feel as I hope I appear! And that is as a woman. I feel as a woman as I will never perform as a man. Since I am pre op I want to be thought of as a lesbian, because my sexual orientation was not affected. Therefore I best be a trans woman. Anyone saying I was a man before would neither be wrong nor right. I can't care how some think of me. It won't change me. I do look like a male sometimes cause that is a trait of some trans women. My hands may be small, but not as small as a cis woman.

I think that you must believe there is some difference in you. And be proud of it. Yes I do try to strut when I walk and sure I will smile about it. There may be a time when I can't. Then? Don't go on acceptance unless you accept yourself. Don't go on what I say just think about it. Don't be the person you say those that don't accept you are.

Contessa

[PaulaQ]

I forgot to mention in the other post. There are two types of people who really don't seem to view me as a "real woman":
1. The gay dudes in my neighborhood who watched my transition. They view me as some sort of "super gay dude", despite the fact that my breasts apparently emit an invisible gay male repelling force field. I'm like their queer (or am I straight - they can't figure that out) gal pal. I can show them my "before" picture, though, and some of them are all over that. Cognitive dissonance, at it's finest. They are respectful, and on some level, they really DO respond to me as a woman, even if many of them are too dumb to recognize it in their heads! So we're pals.
2. Old (ex) friends, particularly the men. With some of them, I just have too much past history. We no longer speak.

I think that the primary reason straight cis guys, or for that matter, lesbian cis women reject us comes down to genitalia, and homophobia / transphobia. For straight cis guys that reject us, I think a lot of them are often more worried about what other people will think. It's not so much they don't view us as real women - they are straight, and if they didn't, they wouldn't date us at all. I'm not talking about the ones who just reject us out of hand - they are just transphobic. A number of cis lesbians that me and my friends have encountered are quite willing to view us as women, and some of them will have sex with us. Or rather, they'll let us perform oral on them - but they won't reciprocate unless the trans woman has had GRS. As best I can tell, though, most cis lesbians won't have much to do with us. There are exceptions - I know other trans women who've found relationships with cis lesbians. It's just sort of difficult, honestly, more difficult than straight guys.

I think the best odds for us with cis people are to look for bisexual / pansexual men or women. Although I've run into transphobic bisexual people, or bisexual people who for reasons I cannot fathom as a bisexual person myself, really just want one particular type of genitals to play with, there are of bi men and women who simply will not care about your history, your surgical status, etc. They are more likely to become interested in you if your profile is an interesting read, and they find you to be an interesting and attractive person. You are possibly better off listing yourself as bi / pan yourself - but you don't have to, at least on OKCupid.

I list myself as trans on OKCupid - this reduces the amount of traffic I get by about 99%. This is dismal, and it's depressing, but it reduces the "omg, ur trans, bye...", "omg, u have a ___! I hope u die!" messages, and I've gotten two relationships from the site that might not otherwise have happened. (I may not get heaps of action, there, but I don't get many folks who I have no chance with wasting my time, and theirs.) I know others who have had some luck - mostly with women. That said, the women I know tend to be queer, so that isn't surprising. I think it is probably easier with bi guys - I've talked to some on that site, despite the fact that I was not looking for one. (Had one already, needed a woman.) There is also a massive amount of stigma and objectification of bisexuals, so your odds are also helped if that's NOT what you are doing. Most of the traffic I get from cis people on OKC, frankly, is couple's looking for a unicorn. Hey, if you don't mind being some couple's unicorn, you could always respond to those messages, and probably have fun as long as they aren't completely creepy and gross.

Other options are dating within the trans community. There are trans men and women who will date trans women. There are some really, really great trans men out there. Some of them are extremely handsome. And many of them are just exceptional men, in my experience.



BTW, I don't really feel like I'm trans anymore. I just feel like a woman. I know I am trans, and I disclose my history up front. I also don't disclose my surgical status. Anyone who cares about that is not someone I would care to be in a relationship with.

[flatlander_48]

B-L:

Real Women is an unfortunate term. While it does express the dividing line that some people are concerned with, it does work to denigrate and discount.

However, there is one particular point that seems to rarely get mentioned and may have bearing on your topic. I assume the vast majority of people who have transitioned into females, or are about to, were reared as male children. Now, there are those who will say that they have always been female, but at best that would have to be in opposition to how the world viewed them and how they viewed the world. Somehow, as they approach transition, they have to deal with working out that deficient of experience and perspective of female compared to male. Remember that parents allowing their transgender children to dress and interact with the world as their appropriate gender is a relatively recent phenomenon.

So, the question is does this difference in early experience play into the so-called notion of Real Women?

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

I don’t know how appropriate this is to your point, Beth, but here’s an excellent article from the UK about the necessity or desirability of passing as "real" men and women for both transmen and transwomen.

https://www.vice.com/read/passing-when-youre-transgender

Here’s a quote:


As long as the focus remains on physical appearance, trans people will feel pressured into chasing an outdated, superficial notion of femininity or masculinity, at the expense of money, time, and health. And until the transition itself is celebrated, rather than scrutinized or ridiculed, they'll remain marginalized, locked out of employment, and subjected to violence.

Their solution:



With the number of trans people making up the UK's population estimated at less than 1 percent, visibility is essential to normalization; to wider acceptance across society and greater understanding.

[PaulaQ]

So, the question is does this difference in early experience play into the so-called notion of Real Women?

This is one of the arguments that TERFs make. My answer is flatly - "no."

The idea that there is a universal set of experiences all women equally share because of our culture's reaction to our assigned at birth sex is a fiction. The people who promote these ideas are, typically, white, relatively well off, and as members of the women of the world go, in relatively little position to bitch about life compared to what many, many other women endure, particularly women of color and trans women.

[Nicole Erin]

When people do not accept due to genitalia, it makes me wonder -
Unless someone is a prospective lover, why do they care what is in someones underwear?
You know someone by their face. You like or dislike them for their personality.

I used to go to beauty school with some lady who said, "Boys have a penis, girls have a vagina". I said, "what if someone gets (SRS)?" and she was like, "I don't know..." kind of annoyed. Of course she was pretty dumb anyways. She had two brain cells and they were fighting each other.

[AmandaM]

Certain segments of society will never accept TS's not in stealth. There will be discrimination, stares, whispers. It makes me sad. Partially for me, but mostly for those of you who are in transition.

[Zooey]

The misogyny is strong with this one...


One problem is that so many of us late transitioners have only become used to the idea of being a woman, through cross-dressing and doing so in a quite feminine way, so there is that factor in the way that it makes us feel good, and helps us adjust, by dressing as an ordinary women, and as stereotypically as possibly, and even in an over the top, feminine way. It would be a psychological sacrifice for many of us to do otherwise. It has become a part of the way we secure our identity as a woman, in our own mind, and override the bad feelings from the way we may have been criticized and even bullied, by not being manly enough, etc. On the other hand, we have already tried, when growing up, deliberately or accidentally to mix gender characteristics, and many of us have been deeply scarred by the blow back. I think it is easier in some cases, for those remaining in the cross-dressing/transgender stage, to defy convention of conventional feminine dress and appearance, since their identity is already secure, as still being male. .

Do people actually have this experience with out, transitioned women who are living their lives? I've met my fair share, across a pretty wide range of age groups, and pretty much all of the transitioned women I've met gave up the hyper-femininity long ago. I won't speak in absolutes, but based on my experience I would think that this represents an incredibly small minority within our incredibly small minority. I'm not talking about people who present as femme, but those who retain the over-the-top caricature style of presentation?

Also... I'm confused. This seems to contradict the beginning of your post?


Yes, DeeAnn, that seems to be a real objection men have to dating transwomen, the fact they are not brought up a women, from the little girl stage, and so will not act like or feel the soft emotional approach to the life of a woman and the role of being an easy-to-get-along-with girl friend, as expected of a traditional woman, and also will not have the instinctive taste to dress in the sort of feminine way, that signal to a male, that they are of the opposite sex.

[Badtranny]

I've met my fair share, across a pretty wide range of age groups, and pretty much all of the transitioned women I've met gave up the hyper-femininity long ago.

Um EXcuse me?

I'm a damn dainty feminine angel! I practically float!

[whowhatwhen]

I like how people think chromosomes matter to a fully developed adult, little do they know I have a whole drawer full of 'em.

[Zooey]

While reason may make the long transitioned transwomen adopt a more realistic style of dress, the hurt, in the form of an irrational emotion lodged in the unconscious from the person's pre-transitioned era, during the long period of cross-dressing, still has its force, and even if the style of overconformity is gone, we still have a phobia of being perceived in ant way, as still having a masculine side. Of course, when you come out as trans, then that worst of fears ends up reactivated, as people start to address you with male pronouns, by accident, and so on, and treat you enough like a man, that you may respond,as you used to, as a man. Then your identity shifts a little, back to bi-gendered, and the gender dysphoria and doubts about who you really are, can resurface. I would be afraid that those out as trans publicly, may end up getting into considerable psychological trouble, should they expose themselves to the experience of being perceived and treated as a male again.

<snip>

The next generation of cis-women of the baby boom, stopped dressing that way, as did many older cis-women who adopted more comfortable styles. This did arouse some suspicion that hyperfemininity as well as other gender-marker intensive fashions adopted by females, might not last, as well as that trans-women would revert to masculine styles at least part of the time. (and frankly, I have to some degree, and I know some others have.). Even worse, is the fear that transwomen may rediscover and reactivate other male traits at some point..

Define 'masculine styles'. i spend most days in t-shirts and jeans, as do pretty much all of the women I work with, but there's absolutely nothing masculine about it.

When I read what you wrote, what struck me was that you described two groups extremely well.


Male-to-female transgender individuals who have not themselves accepted that they are, in fact, women
Crossdressers (arguably a specialized subset of #1)

Again, amongst transitioned women who have actually accepted their identity (at least from what I can tell), I don't see this caricature-style of presentation. All the women I know, cis or trans, dress more or less appropriately for what they're doing at any given moment, and the day/month/year/decade they're currently in. I also certainly don't understand this irrational fear that a pair of jeans implies that somebody is "reverting to male" anything.

I see the caricature almost exclusively from people who are not women, like CDs. It stems from this concern that any chink in their "female illusion" will lead to them being "found out". Well, that, and the desire to recreate an image of "the perfect woman". AKA a woman from a time when men didn't feel like they had to listen to or respect them, and who was totally fine with all of that. While there are lots of signs for detecting this, you can definitively recognize this when somebody starts suggesting like "Vacuuming the house while wearing pantyhose and 5 inch heels makes them feel so connected to their femininity".

Look, if you like dressing like it's the 1950s, good for you, although I think there's a difference between dressing like normal women in the 1950s and dressing like a stereotype-laden image of a "1950s Woman". What I don't understand is all of the rhetoric you've surrounded that with, and some of it seems downright dangerous/concerning. The idea that your identity would change because people misgender you? Seriously? That doesn't make you bigendered. It makes you angry, sad, or any number of other things, but it doesn't change your identity. If you are a woman, you are a woman.

If your "identity" can be so easily affected by those things, I would suggest that it may not be your identity at all.


Dear,dear, this is awfully complex analysis isn't it? I fear it could be easily misunderstood, because it is so complex and nuanced. 73

Not really.


Um EXcuse me? I'm a damn dainty feminine angel! I practically float!

There are always exceptions. ;)

[PaulaQ]

To the question of there being one set of experiences of growing up as a woman, is complicated, in that even in our multi-ethnic, multi-class society, dismissing this complaint by saying, it merely means that one had to adopt the definition and concept of being a woman in the milieu and the era, you are in, as an adult.

I'm simply saying that most of the complaints about our history come from a very, very narrow group of rather hateful women, most of whom are amongst the MOST privileged of cis women. There is no universal female experience. It only looks that way to white girls who can't check their freaking privilege and poke their head out of the tiny bubble they occupy.


It is not usually a situation any trans wants. The role of being a good will ambassador from the trans community, is just too heavy a burden to bear.

I'm fine with being out. I'm out everywhere. After 50 years in the closet, I didn't transition to go right back into another closet. I understand and respect people who want to be stealth. No thanks, not for me. I have sufficient passing privilege that I don't have to hassle with being viewed as trans by every single person I meet. This is lucky, and a blessing. If I know you for any length of time, you'll know I'm trans because I will tell you. I do this because unlike many of us, I am completely unafraid of what they might do to me. I don't mind public speaking. Since I am able to do these things - speak to people about being trans, I feel an obligation to do them. Because many of us can't do this, whether they pass or not, or are stealth or out.

If someone wouldn't treat me as the woman I am because they know I'm trans, I want no relationship with them, period. So I save myself time and trouble and eliminate such people early on. I shed no tears over their rejection - I'm glad they aren't going to be part of my life.

Obviously if my life wasn't survivable this way, I'd do my best to be stealth. Hopefully it never comes to that.


I also certainly don't understand this irrational fear that a pair of jeans implies that somebody is "reverting to male" anything.

I don't wear jeans or pants very often because I had no choice but to wear them for 50 years, and I'm tired of them. I like wearing a dress or skirt. There is nothing wrong with jeans or pants. I'm just bored with wearing them. I wear them when doing something where wearing a skirt isn't appropriate or functional. Other than that, I'm done with them.

[Inna]

Good subject, as it ventures outside of trans into the realm of existential perception.

As it were, human beings do not obey strict rules of intelligence and perceive the world around them in so to speak "need to know basis", formulating the picture of environment based on their basic observation.

Now, this truly goes for everyone, and these are the rules of basic survival. Then comes emotional depth and belief system, which differs.

So, if visual and behavioral cues do correspond with female look, then everyone will take her as a natural woman. She will be treated as one, interacted as one, associated as one, all in all, she will be a natural woman. Until that is, when information is presented that states of birth abnormality.
Sad but true.

[Zooey]

My intent was certainly not to sling mud, and I also don't think the thread has gone so far off topic. I'm saying that the behavior you're describing is (to me, at least) suggestive of somebody who either is not a woman, or has not accepted their identity as a woman to the degree where that identity is certain, regardless of minor threats to it from the outside or the way someone chooses to dress themselves.

Given that, the topic was "why don't people accept us as women if they know our past?" My response is, why should they do so if we barely accept that we are women? Why should they believe that this is about identity, when we present an image as a shield that is inconsistent with modern women, emphasizes appearance before all else, and so much more that women have worked hard and long to free themselves from as a requirement?

Btw, Paula, I think it's great that you don't like jeans. Everybody has a style, and reasons for it. Jeans or skirts, I don't think you're anywhere close to the hyper-feminine legacy "ideal woman" image that I'm talking about, and that's a good thing. There are women who adopt aspects of that style too, or a version of it, like Dita Von Teese, but doing it to own it is vastly different from doing it because you feel it's the only way to be a woman, or at least the only way people will see you as one.

[LeaP]

Beth, I took, as apparently did others, your comments in post #20 as an explication of how one's history is revealed… thus how the "taint" is activated. I.e., it sure seems to be on topic to me.

You're arguing both sides of the history point. On one hand, you ask why it should make any difference at all. On the other, you lament the things that manifest it. Well, if the first is true, the second should have nothing to do with identity, so presentation should effectively be irrelevant. It's hard for me to read anything into this other then you don't like how some people dress. I get that, at least – neither do I.

As for being "tainted," people are entitled to their views, right or wrong. If someone wants to view me forevermore as a man, that's just a point of information. As there are plenty of others who will not view or treat me that way, I have plenty of scope to construct my own life. I don't share your concern about trans people themselves taking on the taint. But I do get concerned that the views you express in the last paragraph of your OP might compound some people's problems at a difficult time.

[PretzelGirl]

I don't wear jeans or pants very often because I had no choice but to wear them for 50 years, and I'm tired of them. I like wearing a dress or skirt. There is nothing wrong with jeans or pants. I'm just bored with wearing them. I wear them when doing something where wearing a skirt isn't appropriate or functional. Other than that, I'm done with them.

I always find it interesting when clothing/styles comes up for a validation point. When I went out for the first time and posted my picture (my profile picture now), Veronica posted "And what's with crossdressers wearing flats, casual tops and jeans, don't they know that sort of thing is TS wear? It's in the rulebook! Oh I kid. :-)". It was funny, struck home, plus I later realized the stereotyping wasn't helpful (not her's as she was joking, but when people say it seriously) So we get into the stereotyping of a crossdresser dresses up and a transitioned woman eschews heels and wears jeans. I just left a friend who transitioned the same time as me. Except when she is doing "roll up your sleeve" work, she is in a nice dress, hose, and heels. The point being, to be a woman, you just have to be you as each person's point on their appearance demonstrates.


While reason may make the long transitioned transwomen adopt a more realistic style of dress, the hurt, in the form of an irrational emotion lodged in the unconscious from the person's pre-transitioned era, during the long period of cross-dressing, still has its force, and even if the style of overconformity is gone, we still have a phobia of being perceived in ant way, as still having a masculine side. Of course, when you come out as trans, then that worst of fears ends up reactivated, as people start to address you with male pronouns, by accident, and so on, and treat you enough like a man, that you may respond,as you used to, as a man. Then your identity shifts a little, back to bi-gendered, and the gender dysphoria and doubts about who you really are, can resurface. I would be afraid that those out as trans publicly, may end up getting into considerable psychological trouble, should they expose themselves to the experience of being perceived and treated as a male again.

I believe that when people know you, they might use the wrong pronoun or name by accident, but they won't treat you like a man by accident. I just don't see it or at least I don't see it as being common. Heck, today I was accidentally called by my dead name in an email from my Chief Engineer and later "He'ed" twice by my Director who apologized and corrected himself midstream. I didn't get mad as it is muscle memory and I sure wasn't treated like a man. I "trained" them over years of working together on my old pronouns and name and that subconscious memory comes up rarely (I think that is a first for my Director), but it can. If you then respond as a man, than that is on you. Feeling bi-gendered and then having increased dysphoria when sliding into that mode doesn't compute to me. If you act out *naturally* in a male way, then that is naturally you. You shouldn't have dysphoria acting as you, you have it when you act otherwise. So if you shift to what you perceive as a male acting self, then I would say that maybe you are not all the way over on the spectrum where you are binary.

[PaulaQ]

This thread has gone off topic and I see no point in arguing the last couple of posts.

I apologize if any of my remarks in my last reply seemed to be personal or aimed at anyone on this forum. I can assure you they were not, and I sincerely apologize if anyone took them that way. Specifically, my observation was that TERFs like Greer Garson are the ones who complain we can't be real women because we weren't socialized as women. Those are the ones I was referring to.

I also read what I said about being out again, and I hope no one got the impression that I think anything less of people who are stealth. I don't. I respect that decision. And if it seemed I was accusing anyone of cowardice for not being out everywhere, then please forgive me, that isn't at all what I meant. Being out, being visible, is scary. It is sane to be scared when you are in a situation where bad things can potentially happen. All I really wanted to do is point out that there are other points of view than the one Beth-Lock stated. I know many activists who are out and highly visible. You kind of have to be to do that work. It isn't for everyone, and there's no shame if it's not for you. But I realize the tone of my post might have been taken in a way I didn't mean.

As for hyper femininity - no, I don't consider myself to be an exaggerated stereotype of femininity, although I am pretty darn girly. I have friends who are hyper-feminine - heels, skirts short enough to best be described as a belt, etc. Their style isn't to my taste, and if asked, I'm glad to give them pointers on what I think would look better on them. However, I have little enough regard for cis-het normative standards that if that's how a trans woman wants to look to best represent who she is, then I'm fine with that, it's her choice. I am fine with any particular way a trans woman wants to present, from butch to high-femme.

I will say that I see a lot of trans women who present in jeans, a cute top, and no makeup, not because that best represents them, or because they don't have TIME to do any more, but because they seem to fear being noticed, and somehow feel dressing that way will make them invisible. Nobody says you have to present any particular way - at least I don't. But I don't know that it's healthy when people act based on fear, rather than on what is the best and truest representation of themselves. Unfortunately, some I've observed aren't invisible at all, mainly because of their physical size, or other obvious, indicator that they are trans. So it's not bad, in my view, that they don't want to be seen, but it doesn't seem to work that well in many cases, and so I question if it's such a helpful strategy. I'm of the opinion that if you are going to be noticed anyway, you are probably better off socially to be seen as that large, rather well dressed trans woman, than as the large trans woman in a rather mousy outfit. I also know that it's expensive being a woman, and so some of us have to do the best we can with what we can afford, and that for some of us who are quite large, finding clothes that fit, any clothes, can be a serious challenge.

I know trans women who are FAR more masculine than what is being described in this thread. I have no problem with this - the ones I know who do this are butch lesbians. It's just who they are. I simply think it's healthier if a person expresses themselves based on a positive feeling "this is who I am", rather than a negative one "I am afraid of other people." That said, there are those of us who have social anxieties, and other issues, so for some of us, we do the best we can do. That's OK too. (I do know trans women with really serious social anxiety issues who rock some great clothes though, and get noticed positively because of them.)

One of the things that annoys me that I've observed in the trans community (in real life, not on here), are trans people who feel they can tell us how we should dress. "That trans woman in 5 inch heels needs to understand SHE REPRESENTS ME, ALL OF US, and she shouldn't look like that, I'm going to give her a piece of my mind!" That makes me angry. (I really have heard this. More than once. Actually a bunch of times.) Some of the same people, will then turn around and complain about how drab the other trans women in the room look. This is misogyny, plain and simple.

So there are lots of other reasons than just "fear" that some of us eschew things like dresses and skirts. I appreciate that, and even if a woman doesn't change a thing she wears, I'd much rather see her wear her clothes because "they are comfortable, convenient, affordable, and I like them", rather than "oh god I hope nobody notices me." (Oh, and please understand I'm not talking about anyone on this forum - I'm thinking of a number of women I know locally.)

[Suzanne F]

I just want to respond about how I feel about the latest issues brought up here. I am trying to find my way in the world as a woman now and it is difficult. I think I like Paula's attitude of being a visible trans woman. It has been my plan to wear that mantle proudly. However, it has been difficult out in the work world. Today I was told a prospective customer would not appreciate my gender change. A person in my industry who I don't even know told this to one of my colleagues. Ouch the real world just raised up and bit me. Then tonight I was in line at grocery and there were 3 good looking fireman in front of me. The cashier looked right at me and said sir oh I mean mam aisle 4 is open. Everyone heard him at the front of the store. Ouch!
I guess I am admitting that yes at times I am finding I would like to just be a regular woman out in the world. That isn't going to happen and I know it. I keep telling myself that I knew all of this but the pain is real no matter that I knew it was coming. I had sailed through a lot of obstacles but there is no escaping the fact that I am looked at as different.

As far as clothes go who gives anyone the right to criticize what we wear? Surely we are smart enough to determine what environments we are comfortable in and how we want to present ourselves. It seems everywhere I go people think because I am trans they can comment on my wardrobe. My president asked me at our first meeting as me being out if I was going to dress like a ****! He said he had done research and new trans women tended to dress like that. Wtf! Not to mention my trans friends who have been condescending about that I would eventually find my style. Others in our community have said I was too girly. Again wtf!

So now I am trying to navigate being a professional woman. Nothing feels right now! My clothes aren't good enough my hair sucks , well my wig sucks. My makeup isn't refined enough. Blah blah blah! What is important is who I am, I know that. I don't even know what I am trying to say. I am struggling. It seems like I got lost for a second.

Suzanne

[PaulaQ]

Others in our community have said I was too girly. Again wtf!

There is a tendency in many spheres in which we find ourselves, both in the cis and trans worlds, to criticize femininity. Women are viewed as weak. It is misogyny, and it isn't the truth. Unfortunately, masculine traits are *always* viewed as being superior to feminine ones.

When I met you in person, Suzanne, I thought your outfit was very flattering to you, and in keeping with something a professional woman in Dallas would wear. It seemed appropriate to me for the Bay Area, as well. Stick to your guns, Suzanne, you have good instincts based on what I've seen.

I know it's hard to not disintegrate into a puddle of self-doubt when you get all the criticism that's been lobbed at you. Stick to your guns. If you are to critique your appearance, only listen to people who you KNOW have good taste, and your best interests at heart, and who will be honest. Know that you are putting forth effort to be the best you can be, and do that. Be confident - again - easier said than done. Confidence makes a lot of things easier.

And I really do feel for you and relate to what you are going through. I've been there - misgendered, criticized for my clothing choices, told I was too feminine, all manner of things. It isn't easy doing this. I wish it was. You can do it, but yeah, it sucks while you are going through it. All of us suffer many indignities, large and small, especially early on.

[PennyNZ]

I so much know what you are going through Suzanne. Persevere and we will get lucky..
Btw.. I think you look fantastic

[becky77]

@ Suzanne. Go easy on yourself it's a learning curve. Some things you will ditch, others you will refine and some you will keep, maybe all of it you will keep but learn to own it.
Criticism is hard but we can learn from it.

I don't understand why jeans are considered masculine? I wear jeans most of the time and they are female fitted. If your jeans look masculine shop around, I can pick up the same style from the same shop and one might fit great while the other hangs wrong.

Wear the clothes that represent you, no point in Transitioning only to step into another clothing closet, but if you want to be taken seriously you will need to be selective.
I rarely wear skirts day to day, but I often put one on for when I have to go into head office, no one pays any attention, but if it was a miniskirt........

Thing is clothing is important and we shouldn't just avoid the subject for fear of sounding like a CD. Some early Transitioners may need guidance and dare not broach the subject here, shame.

Beth I can't relate to a lot of the stuff you say, things like (I'm paraphrasing) 'Being misgendered as a man can make you slip into male mode and affect your identity'. What on earth does that mean?
To me that says anyone who shares that view is only acting at being a woman, if your identity is so easily shaken something is wrong. I can understand being hurt or feeling bitter or even questioning how you will cope.
Then you mention hyper femininity as a cloak, again acting?

I'm not going to say your views are wrong just that you write them as if they apply to us all and they very much don't.

As for dating it's a non starter till after SRS. Then?
Well if I'm honest it's such a minefield I might stay celibate!

You can't be stealth when finding a partner they will find out at some point and if it's not till Christmas dinner with your family and Dad slips up on a childhood story, that partner is going to feel a sucker punch! Most likely due to the deceit.
I don't intend to start a relationship with a lie, but if I start with the truth it probably won't start at all. Sucks to be this way.

[ReineD]

So now I am trying to navigate being a professional woman. Nothing feels right now! My clothes aren't good enough my hair sucks , well my wig sucks. My makeup isn't refined enough. Blah blah blah! What is important is who I am, I know that.

I don't know if you want my :2c:, but over the years I've discovered the perfect style for work that absolutely no one can criticize. :) The trick is to not draw any attention by wearing stylish clothing. When I was a young woman building my career I bought clothes that were stylish and flattering, but discovered that the men I dealt with paid more attention to the fact that I was female than what I wanted them to pay attention to, which was my work and my competence. So the secret to dressing professionally, are plain styles that do not emphasize body parts. Button and collared shirts that don't cling, plain straight skirts that are not tight, don't suggest your legs or your butt as you walk and that are knee length in not eye-catching colors (blues, grays, etc), or slacks that are not tight fitting, modest 1-2" plain pumps, and business-like jackets that hide everything. Basically, the women's version of what men wear to make sales calls. You can accessorize with a scarf and jewelry, but not too much jewelry and not too much makeup. Just a pair of earrings and a watch will do. The sexy way that professional women are portrayed in movies does not work well in real life, not for a woman who wants people to look at what she has to offer more than what she looks like.

Now before some of you pick this apart, of course once a woman has her work reputation established and she is respected, she can wear what she wants. This advice holds for young women who are building their careers (or older women like me reentering the workforce and wanting to build a new career) and newly transitioned women who want people to pay attention to the work that needs to be done and not other things.

[Zooey]

Beth I can't relate to a lot of the stuff you say, things like (I'm paraphrasing) 'Being misgendered as a man can make you slip into male mode and affect your identity'. What on earth does that mean?
To me that says anyone who shares that view is only acting at being a woman, if your identity is so easily shaken something is wrong. I can understand being hurt or feeling bitter or even questioning how you will cope.
Then you mention hyper femininity as a cloak, again acting?

I'm not going to say your views are wrong just that you write them as if they apply to us all and they very much don't.

This is exactly what I was getting at - thank you for stating it more clearly than I did.

[Jennifer Hopkins]

Hi Suzanne
I love this side as it gives me a chance to learn and get more confident.
Yes i fully understand how you feel and that is what makes me scared to transition. I want to be feminine and the women i am inside but other so called normal people i know will make it very hard. I hope in time and before it is to late i will get the courage to be myself to all the world. This side is.giving me a little more confidence.
You look fantastic.

[Badtranny]

I am struggling. It seems like I got lost for a second.

It's a struggle Suze, and it never ends.

You will vacillate between wanting to be open and wanting to be normal. One minute you're feeling fabulous and the next you're feeling like a great ape.

I know this. I know it's hard. I know it's worth it.

[Michelle789]

I will say that I see a lot of trans women who present in jeans, a cute top, and no makeup, not because that best represents them, or because they don't have TIME to do any more, but because they seem to fear being noticed, and somehow feel dressing that way will make them invisible.

I think a lot of cis women do the same thing because they don't want to be noticed. Although they won't get clocked as trans, they still risk getting lots of unwanted male attention. Dressing down decreases the amount of male attention they would get as opposed to if they dressed more femme.

I do think that time does play a role in how femme someone presents. To do hair, makeup, skin care, have time to buy nice clothes, and the works takes time. I find that I spend a considerable time on my appearance, although it's totally manageable. But going to the store to buy makeup takes time. It takes time to apply makeup every day. Going for eyebrow waxing appointments and plucking - takes time. Going to the store/mall to buy new nice clothes - takes time. Styling hair, or in my case, properly maintaining my wig - it all takes time. And it all adds up, and we have plenty of other responsibilities to tend to in life. Now, most women have to work at least one paid job (sometimes more), commute to and from those jobs, shop, cook, clean, raise the kids, and sex. Add on top of that needing adequate time to exercise, eat right (yes, this costs time and money), and take care of your emotional, mental, and spiritual state - such as prayer, meditation, church, AA, therapy, other forms of self help. Add on top of that trying to get 8 hours of sleep every night. Honestly, it can be practically impossible to do it all. There's only 24 hours in a day. My belief is many people - both men and women - skimp on sleep to get it all done, and spend their entire lives sleep deprived. Maybe some people skimp on their emotional, mental, and spiritual care. Some people skimp on exercise. People skimp on eating healthy. And yes, women may skimp on their appearance. Unfortunately, there isn't time for it all, unless you're superwoman who can safely and sanely live on two hours of sleep.

Also, everything costs money too. I'm sure there are plenty of GG's who have to cut corners financially too, especially when they're raising kids. When you have kids, your time and money rightfully goes into raising the kid.

Also, I think if you're going to get clocked, it won't matter too much what you're wearing. We get clocked in half a second. I don't think people in half a second are going to clock you because of your clothing style being too over the top femme. People clock you in half a second because of your physical size, male facial and body features, male walking, male movements, male mannerisms, and vibes you emit from within. Those vibes about how you feel about yourself that can show through your face - that can change the appearance of your face. Feeling confidently femme can erase some male features thus allowing you to pass, while feeling not confident, worrying about being clocked, or fighting yourself, can erase female features and get you clocked. Ok, it doensn't literally erase male/female features. But rather, your inner vibes can enhance female features and disguise male features, or vice versa.

Wearing clothes that stand out may only get you clocked if you're borderline on passing, and will likely not get you clocked instantaneously but rather after being initially gendered as female. But in most cases, you're clocked instantaneously, in that first half second. Most likely someone isn't thinking - dress and hose - must be a tranny. More likely, their thinking, what a well dressed woman. Or if they clock you, that's a tranny/dude in a dress/etc, but they really can't offer you a reason why. They clocked you in half a second, and it was very subconsciously done. Most likely, the person who clocked you has no clue why they clocked you. They just know, or at least suspect it. Yes, there were things that screamed male, but if you asked someone who clocked why they clocked you, they likely won't be able to give you a reason. They most likely won't even be able to think of a reason, unless it was your voice or facial hair or something VERY obvious that gave you away.



I'm of the opinion that if you are going to be noticed anyway, you are probably better off socially to be seen as that large, rather well dressed trans woman, than as the large trans woman in a rather mousy outfit.

I agree. Being well-dressed can help us in many situations. It can make a beautiful women look even more beautiful. It can make a plainer women look more beautiful. It can make a non-passable transwoman be more accepted. Not universally, there are plenty of haters. But dressing nicely can help boost people's perceptions of you at least some of the time, to at least some degree. I personally believe in making a good first impression, and dressing nicely accomplishes that. However, it's not required that you dress really femme. Honestly, I believe whatever style of dress makes you happiest and most comfortable is what you should wear. Whatever style of dress best represents you is how you should dress.



I also know that it's expensive being a woman, and so some of us have to do the best we can with what we can afford, and that for some of us who are quite large, finding clothes that fit, any clothes, can be a serious challenge.

Agreed to both. Some transwomen either can't afford nice clothing or are limited by whatever they can find in plus sizes.



One of the things that annoys me that I've observed in the trans community (in real life, not on here), are trans people who feel they can tell us how we should dress. "That trans woman in 5 inch heels needs to understand SHE REPRESENTS ME, ALL OF US, and she shouldn't look like that, I'm going to give her a piece of my mind!" That makes me angry. (I really have heard this. More than once. Actually a bunch of times.) Some of the same people, will then turn around and complain about how drab the other trans women in the room look. This is misogyny, plain and simple.

I think this comes from insecurity and jealousy. I have been told by people that they don't like my femme style of clothing a few times. I am a wearer of femme clothing, and I have never personally criticized anyone on their style of dress. That's really not my business.



I've been there - misgendered, criticized for my clothing choices, told I was too feminine, all manner of things. It isn't easy doing this. I wish it was. You can do it, but yeah, it sucks while you are going through it.

I've been through all of that too. I have had people say things like "are you going to wear 'normal' clothes to the meeting next time?" or have been told that I dress "age inappropriately" and will get clocked because of it, or that I just don't know how to put an outfit together. I have also been told by a few people that I should go with shorter hair because it's more mainstream or because shorter hair suits my facial shape better. In spite of these insults, I have been complimented on my clothes, hair, makeup, shoes, and overall appearance WAY more than the few insults I have endured.

I believe that people who criticize our clothes, hair, and makeup, are probably jealous of us, and wish they could dress like us. People who wear jeans & cute tops who are comfortable with and genuinely like that style aren't going to be the ones criticizing us.


Of course trans-people who have this trait of a love of hyperfemininity, picked it up decades before, (mostly in the 1950's and early 1960's, when the hyper feminine was the style for cis-women), and so, are becoming a minority, as they age, (now being in their 60's, or in their 70's), and either have passed on or have stopped socializing much in public, so one would not encounter them if you hang with a younger, socially active generation.


I was born in the 80s, and I picked up hyperfemininity. I wear dresses, skirts, hose, nice shoes, makeup, and long hair. I personally know of older transwomen who don't wear dresses. So, maybe mostly older transwomen dress as I do, but there are always exceptions to the rule. And once again, you're most likely not getting clocked on your clothing. More likely you're getting clocked in 0.5 seconds by physical features, movements, vibes you emit, or by voice.


I don't think you're anywhere close to the hyper-feminine legacy "ideal woman" image that I'm talking about, and that's a good thing. There are women who adopt aspects of that style too, or a version of it, like Dita Von Teese, but doing it to own it is vastly different from doing it because you feel it's the only way to be a woman, or at least the only way people will see you as one.

I'm not some hyper-feminine legacy "ideal woman" image either. I choose the elements of hyper femininity that I really like (and also within time & budget). I forgo heels and don't find them very comfortable. I wear stylish ballet flats, boots, and open-toe sandals and they give me a sense of style and comfort. I don't do eye makeup very often, mostly because I literally can't take 10-15 minutes every morning to do it. I'd rather pray and meditate for those 10-15 minutes than add eye shadow. Maybe when my facial hair is finally completely removed and I no longer have to shave, maybe I'll use that time to apply eye makeup. I don't mind doing basic eye shadow, but applying eyeliner is absolutely burdensome to me. I do foundation and powder, lipstick, long wavy hair, a dress (or skirt with nice top) and black stockings. I go bare legged sometimes during the summer months. I wear pants only for situations I feel it's more practical to dress that way, or if I really feel like wearing pants on a given day. I have shortened the length of some of my dresses and skirts a bit, although I don't like to go too short. Let's say that I have gone from just above the knee (1-3 inches) to 3 to 6 inches above the knee. I also wear a bracelet on my left wrist. I have a few that I rotate between, depending on how it matches with the outfit I'm wearing.

If the ideal you're talking about includes loads of makeup (eye, face, and lips), short miniskirts/dresses, cleavage revealing clothes, 4-6 inch heels, super long curly/wavy hair, finger and toenails completely done, with or without stockings, then yeah, I agree with you that most of us aren't going for that full on look, but are picking and choosing the elements that we are comfortable with.



One minute you're feeling fabulous and the next you're feeling like a great ape.

I can totally relate.

[Zooey]

I'm not some hyper-feminine legacy "ideal woman" image either. I choose the elements of hyper femininity that I really like (and also within time & budget). I forgo heels and don't find them very comfortable.

You're not even close to hyper-femininity.

I think some people might be misinterpreting what I mean by "hyper-feminine". When I say "hyper-feminine", it's related to "feminine" in the same way that "hyper-space" in sci-fi relates to "space" - it's a level beyond reality. It is a make-believe notion of a plutonic-ideal of femininity and what a "good woman" is that is not representative of any woman that actually exists (or has ever actually existed) in the real world. It encompasses all aspects of presentation, as well as the motivation behind them. In most cases, it is a very historically masculine view of femininity. It's woman as a demure, opinion-less, visually-perfect, sexually-available (but not too available), object. It's "I'm unacceptable because I don't do <something demanded of me>" rather than "I'm awesome because I'm doing <something amazing I love>". Yes, there are styles of dress that often go with it, but it's a holistic thing.

Perhaps more relevant to this conversation, it is the notion that the validity/integrity/stability/worth of your identity as a woman is predicated on executing a particular costume well enough to meet somebody else's imaginary standard.

You can be very feminine, and not be what I'm talking about. I actually DO wear eye makeup every day, because I like it when my eyes pop, whether I'm wearing jeans and sneakers or not. I have friends, cis and trans, who love to dress girly girly girly girly. They are also unquestionably strong women, and some of them are among the staunchest feminists I know. In all cases, it's all about being ourselves - that's just what we each like. There is a huge difference between being/expressing yourself and your self-identity being predicated on wearing a woman costume based on a hyper-feminine ideal. They can look similar in a given moment, but observed over time they would rarely be mistaken for each other.

I don't care what Beth-Lock or anybody else chooses to wear. You do you! What concerned me were the descriptions of the motivations and thought processes that supposedly led to those choices, and the suggestion of (what seemed to me) a very fragile self-identity as a woman. If you are a woman, you are a woman. The notion of needing to adopt regressive notions of femininity in order to convince yourself of that seems incredibly counter-productive to me, both for the individual trans-woman doing it and for our collective relationship with the broader population of women.

[becky77]

One minute you're feeling fabulous and the next you're feeling like a great ape.
.

So true, why is that? :(

[Michelle789]

@Beth

Based on reading your posts, you'er talking about some theoretical feminine woman that doesn't actually exist in real life. It's like the theoretical elements or other aspects of the physical world that have never been observed in the real world, but exist according to scientific theory.

I think when most people talk about style of dress, I think we're talking about that. I think we talk about degrees of casual vs dressy or degrees of feminine style of dress. This whole "pants/jeans vs skirt/dress" debate is exactly that. It's just a style of clothing, and your choice in clothing is no different than whether or not to wear makeup, or how much makeup you're going to wear. In the case of makeup, there's face makeup, eye makeup, and lip makeup. For each of these three, you can choose to wear or not to wear, and also it's a matter of how much. I personally know of women who wear just a tad of foundation but there look is still "au natural." This means just enough makeup to say they are wearing makeup, but not enough that it becomes noticeable. With eye makeup, there's eye shadow, eyeliner, and mascara. You can wear either one shade of eye shadow, or two or more shades of eye shadow blended together.

I guess what I'm saying is that with makeup, we can wear varying amounts of it. Wearing no makeup means exactly that, you're wearing absolutely no makeup. Wearing makeup can mean just a tad of foundation and nothing else, just the lipstick and nothing else, or maybe some foundation + lipstick + a small amount of eyeshadow, or you can go for the works and completely make your face up - this means lips, foundation, concealer, powder, contouring, multiple eyeshadow shades blended properly, eyeliner, mascara, lipstick outlined with a lip pencil, plus anything that I forgot. I think there are some women who go for the works with makeup, but plenty of women wear varying degrees of makeup, but we still wear makeup.

As for dresses and skirts vs pants and jeans, it's simply a matter of style in today's world. Yes it's true that dresses and skirts were more commonly worn by women in the old days, and today women wear pants more often. Even within the world of wearing jeans or pants, there are degrees of girliness.

A butch woman likely wears looser fitting (but not necessarily baggy) jeans / pants plus a more masculine looking top - solid stripes or plad patterns - but the patterns are always very angular or square. They may be more colorful than a male would be. I have seen butch women who like bright pastels, including pink, purple, blue, and green. They may wear converse or even men's shoes. They usually wear their hair very short. Sometimes it's buzz cut short, and other times it's in the men's range of short but not uber short hair - that is the hair can still be styled and parted, but hits above the ears.

A tomboyish woman may wear little or no makeup at all. They may go for looser fitting (but not necessarily baggy) jeans or pants, but there tops are more feminine. This means non-angular patterns and a wider array of colors. They prefer sneakers or flip flops. A tomboy or a butch woman may femme it up from time to time too. I personally know of women (trans & cis) who usually present butch or tomboy who occasionally femme things up. Tomboys often wear their hair below the ears but above the shoulders.

A girly girl typically wears more makeup, but not necessarily the works, although once again, they may wear the works. When they wear pants or jeans, they usually wear very form fitting pants or jeans. Leggings and jeggings are a common staple of the girly girl. I know girly girls who wear pants most of the time and rarely wear skirts and dresses, but they're still girly girls. Some girly girls may choose to wear dresses and skirts predominantly. Most girly girls don't wear hose regularly, but there are some that do. Girly girls may wear heels regularly. Others don't wear heels often, but choose stylish ballet flats, boots, open toe sandals, and even stylish sneakers. Hair is typically shoulder length or longer. Even when choosing heels, there are different styles and heel heights. Lots of girls may vary their heel heights from day to day, and may choose flats or heels depending on the day or situation.

Are the girly girls who wear copious amounts of makeup more girly than the ones who war subtle amounts of makeup? Are girls who wear dresses and skirts girlier than girls who wear form fitting pants? Are girls who wear longer hair girlier than girls who wear shoulder length hair? I do find that the style of pants or jeans is does matter. Girly girls, as I said earlier, tend to wear tight, form fitting pants or jeans if they choose to wear pants.

Also, girly girls, like you said, can be very strong, independent, and even partake in male activities. I identify as a girly girl (although there are girls who are more femme than me), but I also have opinions. I work in the male dominated, logical profession of computer programming. I can hang mirrors, and use a staple gun to hang Christmas lights.

So while very few women, if any, in real life, fit a theoretical "hyper feminine" image of a woman, there are plenty of girly girly girly girls out there who embrace some or all of the elements of stereotypical femininity, who are distinctly different from tomboyish or butch women. Even butch women present and behave distinctly differently from men. There are elements of masculinity in a butch woman's outfits, but it's still a feminine or androgynous style. Many of the differences between men vs butch women, butch women vs tomboy, tomboy vs girly girl, and girly girl vs girly girly girly girl are often very subtle differences. In the end of the day, how we present is just a matter of degree of femininity. Or maybe more appropriately, it's just a matter of style, or personal preference. So I like dresses and skirts, you like tight jeans /pants. Someone else likes looser (but not necessarily baggy) pants or jeans.


@Becky

Women are unfortunately judged by their appearances in our culture. Our value as women is sadly determined by how good we look - makeup, clothes, hair, physical features. We can easily see another woman whom we perceive to be prettier than ourselves and then think we look like an ape. We can be told how beautiful we are by our boyfriends, a guy who is hitting on us, a female friend or stranger, or anyone for that matter, and feel super fabulous.

As transwomen, we're overcoming the obstacles of male bodies and decades of gender dysphoria. We not only feel beautiful vs ugly, but can feel feminine or downright manly. When we pass or have our gender validated by someone else we can feel like we're completely on top of the world. When someone clocks us and misgenders us (or stares, shouts a slur, tells us not to use the women's restroom, etc...) we can feel very dysphoric over it. We can suddenly feel like shitty man apes. Honestly how we feel on any given day depends on the circumstances of how we were treated that day (or in the days leading up to it).

[MarieTS]

This is one of the main reasons to go stealth. Otherwise we can never be TRULY accepted. There will always be rejection, even if we don't see it or it is hidden from us. Deep down we will always be a caveat to the conversation.

[Jennifer Hopkins]

I know when i eventually transition i am not a genetically real women but why can't society treat us with respect and accepted us for what we we are. We are no threat do them all we want is acceptance and tolerance. Problem is that people are at.times very narrow minded ut i think the younger generation is more understanding and accepting. I hope.

[Stumble]

The idea that there is a universal set of experiences all women equally share because of our culture's reaction to our assigned at birth sex is a fiction. The people who promote these ideas are, typically, white, relatively well off, and as members of the women of the world go, in relatively little position to bitch about life compared to what many, many other women endure, particularly women of color and trans women.

Your first sentence is indisputable. The next is exaggerated and unmerited hostility against White, financially well-off females. While you may have heard a lot of White, well-off Women (WWOW:doh:) bitch about life, you have not understood the constraints of their lives that lead to said bitching, and your life experiences may not position you to understand easily.

Your argument is not helped by making some women the Bad Bitches who undermine feminine solidarity. Women will not pull together until compassion rules.