Is the world today leaving us here behind?

[jenni_xx]

Just reading through the first page of the male-to-female crossdressing page, which at this moment includes threads such as:

* Trying on clothes at a store for the first time
* First Time shopping tips
* A documented experience on shopping
* A purchased pair of shoes
* Going out in a car
* Trying on shoes in a store
* Having a pedicure
* Reactions from SA's
* Playing a video game using a female character

This got me thinking, considering just how much transgender issues are in the news recently, how much is being written and debated on, do such concerns (which are undoubtedly valid to the person writing them (and are "concerns" which I'm not for one moment shouldn't be asked)) pale into insignificance in the respect that they are actually quite trivial when it comes to the issue of acceptance?

Just reading through the replies to such threads, a commonality seems to spring out. One that points to a "just get out there and do it" kind of attitude. That strangers (be it people in the street, or sales assistants in a store) don't really care.

Yet the same kind of threads on this site appear again and again, so these issues are clearly important to the person raising them, and it's this reason why I create this thread, asking whether our own worries relate more to our own insecurities which themselves are born out of, for want of a better word, out-dated concerns that we may have in regards to how others, most notably strangers perceive us.

Or, in short, and put rather crudely, are we (or more specifically, is this site) now being left behind?

Currently I am hearing about how children who, at a younger and younger age, are being taken to gender specialists because they are showing a preference for toys/colours/clothes/mannerisms that are traditionally associated with the opposite sex. I am reading about how many now regard gender to be a social construct, separate to sex, which is seen as biological. I am hearing criticism in certain quarters about how trans-activists are offending the feminist movement by advocating and upholding stereotypical ideas about femininity, which feminists are finding insulting and demeaning to women. I am hearing how the meaning of the word "transgender" has changed down the years. I am also hearing about a petition to remove the "T" from LGBT. I am hearing about a backlash from women, who refuse to acknowledge that a transgender person (previously referred to as a transsexual) should ever be regarded as woman in the, quote "true sense of the word" (in the case of MTF), or a man in the, quote "true sense of the word" (in the case of FTM). I have read about TERF's - standing for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. And I am hearing about death threats from members of the transgender community to such people (TERF's).

And yet, even in such groups which can perhaps be labelled "extreme", groups that have received death-threats, there are not many who have ever expressed a problem with a man dressing as a woman. Their problem rather lies towards "men" who express a desire/need to be regarded AS a woman. In their eyes, from a biological perspective, that being an unobtainable goal, no matter how much they cosmetically alter their body.

I am hearing about a backlash in regards to transgender prisoners having to serve time in a prison that houses members that align the transgenders birth-sex-identification (although this only seems to be an issue in regards to MTF - the argument being that female prisons are now becoming yet another female-only space that is being "infiltrated" by men). And of course the issue of gender specific toilets - a debate that has been had (and deleted on this site) in the past, much to my own personal annoyance.

I have even come across a discussion that puts the words for male genitalia and female genitalia in quotation marks, because men and women are now being encouraged to align their own genitalia, pre-op and indeed post-op, or indeed no op at all, to the gender of their preferred choice.

And I have even read about how children should no longer be identified as male or female at birth, because this is an identification that is ascribed to them by someone other than themselves. Instead, children should only be identified as male or female by the children themselves, when they are ready, at an age when they are able to correctly identify themselves in accordance to how they feel.

I have read about how lesbians can be regarded as being transphobic because they don't wish to sleep with a MTF transsexual.

All of these issues are in the news, are readily available to read about online, and are at the forefront of trans issues, and indeed a backlash to the current plethora of trans-related stories in the media.

I have yet to read about any such issues on this site (and the one issue that was discussed - that being toilets - Instead, as it currently stands, the majority of threads on the first page are about topics such as those mentioned at the beginning of this post. The most controversial topic on the first page, interestingly, being the most replied to - namely "have you been with a guy?"

This is a site called crossdressers dot com. Could it be that all of the issues above do NOT relate to crossdressers, and as such, crossdressers are being left behind, forgotten about, a subset of a group of people who fall under the transgender umbrella, a subset who have a desire to present as female only temporarily, yet refer to each other using a pronoun usually associated with the "gender" that is opposite to their own biological "sex"? Yet is nevertheless a subset that is not really taken seriously at all? Men who like to dress as women, yet don't want to be women, are happy, by and large being men. Is it that this particular "subset" is most confusing to all?

It does (kind of) beg the question, if you were born today, and as a baby/child expressed a preference for something/anything that was usually associated to the opposite sex, would your parents be rushing you off to a gender specialist as opposed to brushing it under the carpet. As a phase. As a quirk. As something you'll grow out of. Which begs the further question - is it the problem that it IS other people assigning an identification to yourself, when it is only really yourself who can correctly identify yourself.

Which is, after all, something that takes a lot of time to be able to do. Don't we all, ultimately, fall into ourselves, find ourselves, and accept ourselves, over time? As opposed to being TOLD who we are by someone else?

[AlleyKat]

Could it be that the hot topic debates aren't in this site, because it is oriented towards support more than politics?

While I'm fairly new here, the overwhelming trend is celebrating personal victories and supporting each other through individualized struggles.

Is the world more cd/tg friendly? Undoubtably. It's still hard to shake the feeling that this should be hidden, which is a feeling that is most easily overcome with a good support network.

the site isn't out of date until no one needs that encouragement, and the lack of hot button debates is because you have missed the point.

[jenni_xx]

Yes, it could well be that the hot topic debates "aren't in this site". Precisely because of the reason you mentioned.

Why did you feel it necessary to state "because I have missed the point"? You call it "hot button debates". I call it topical. Much the sameness all said and done. But I will say that asking a question is not tantamount to "missing the point". And as such I find your reply rather condescending, as though I'm not aware of "what the point of this site actually is". I've been hear since 2006. Trust me, I'm fully aware of "the point of this site". My very last sentence in my OP alluded to this. As did several other sentences throughout my (rather long) post.

Every single question, point, which you have decided to not answer by the way. Should I respond to you (as you have responded to me) by saying that you have missed the actual point being made?

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Could I also state that, just because the "hot topic" debates "aren't in this site", does that mean that they never should be?

If that is a recipe for stagnation...

[Sarah Doepner]

It does us little good to make progress as individuals and then discover the world outside this comfy support group rejects us. I agree that the larger issues in society merit discussion but it may be something that is a little out of place on this main page. I would suggest there be one more tab added that would encourage discussion of the struggle faced by crossdressers and other transgender face in the day to day world. This main page has been a boon to me personally as I've attempted to work through issues or have had questions that welcomed a lot of input. I would be disappointed to see that change, but it would be nice if we could have a moderated discussion of broader issues. As it is now, if I want anything like that I'm forced to look at facebook and that deteriorates so quickly into name calling and fact challenged positions that I've just been ignoring it recently out of frustration.

[suzanne]

You don't give any indication how old you are. But my impression of this site is that the average age of posters is over 40, conservatively. I think the general mindset is one of discovery that whereas non standard gender or sexual behaviors were once TABOO, there is now much wider acceptance and its okay to be yourself. Well, duh, you might think, but the conditioning we experienced in the sixties and seventies was much more powerful than younger generations can imagine. And escaping the shackles is not a trivial feat.

I am in my mid fifties. Growing up in the late sixties a seventies, it was common to hear in normal, everyday conversation, talk that would now be prosecutable hate speech. In my own home, my father talked freely about:edit: if he ever saw one and how sickening he found any male with even the slightest feminine presentation. It was the same in school. Gender non-conforming boys were fair game for teasing at best and physical assault at worst. Your only recourse is to hide as best you could, because the school officials could do no more than tell you you brought it on yourself.

So, when I discovered how much I enjoyed the wonders of my mom's lingerie drawer, I was filled with a toxic brew of emotions, from fear to disgust. My defense was to hide in my sports, since I was a big, top level athlete. But not really a conscious form of hiding. I just guessed, correctly, that I would be the last person anyone would suspect. All I had to do was keep my mouth shut.

I successfully repressed my femme tendencies until well into my married life, when it all came back and caused all kinds of problems for my wife, who was raised in the same era as me. It's better now, thanks for asking, but not without a lot of tears, long talks and counseling.

My point is that there are lots of people who have been similarly conditioned and need a lot of help to overcome it. This site provides a huge service by encouraging those girls who are beginning their journeys out of the closet. It is still much needed, I regret to say.

[jenni_xx]

Thanks Sarah, that is an honest, well intentioned reply, and one that I really appreciate.

I do have to ask - why do you feel that it would be a discussion that is "a little out of place on this main page"? It is a discussion that doesn't have to take the place of any other discussion, and it is one that is topical, and one that doesn't need to be at the detriment to any other discussion (that is, it doesn't have to take up a space on the main page that would have otherwise been given to a more "apt thread" (for this site). We are part of the issue - this site is the number one place for crossdressers (or at least it advertises itself as such).

[PaulaQ]

Yes. Crossdressers are being left behind.

For the most part, y'all aren't out, don't participate in trans activism, and gain benefit from efforts to make sure you have access to public facilities en femme because of the efforts transsexuals and non-binary trans. Sure, I know some CDs who fight the good fight. Most of you don't.

Most people have NO IDEA how many of you there are. You are invisible, and powerless because of it.

Be out. Be visible. You would have a big effect on the politics of trans people.

Believe me, I have to fight fairly often against trans people who are happy to throw CDs under the bus.

I don't have time to address all your other points right now, but let me say unequivocally that trans woman are WOMEN, trans men are MEN. Period. Those who say otherwise are wrong, and history will judge them bigots. There are few beliefs I'd die for, but this is one I would.

Edit: I will say one thing about death threats against TERFs. I deplore this and don't approve of it. I would point out though, that 271 trans died this year, compared with zero TERFs. I'd also observe that if they are going to put out hate speech, they should take a page from the KKK, who is at least smart enough to wear masks.

[AngelaYVR]

If this site ever turned into the site that you describe, I'd be long gone.

[Nicole Erin]

Living life anywhere on the TG spectrum is not easy. The earlier the stage someone is in, the harder it is. You don't quite have your look or confidence in place yet. Even small victories seem like a big deal.
As you pass more milestones, it becomes less of a big deal.

Usually in any type of life, the only ones who get a lot of recognition or respect are the ones who are established. People tend to not take beginners or part-timers real serious.

For TG, it doesn't even matter if how someone identifies. Well like Virginia prince identified as a crossdresser yet is well known and respected at least within our community.

There is another path that works for many of us - just living your life and not being concerned with politics or with what others are doing or thinking.
That is the way to establish yourself and find what works best for you.

[AlleyKat]

My intent was not to be condecending, but given the tone of the op I do t feel there is a whole lot of room to talk.

As for putting it in another forum, I can see that working. Look at how many guest are in here at any given moment. How many users with low post counts. We come, we read people's experiences, we take joy from the happy ones, we read the feedback from the not so happy, and learn from that as well.

Debates don't lead to good feelings. It tends to bring out the more combative sides of people, especially in an environment as emotionally charged as this one.

Unity is such a major part of this site, and I'm along with Angela in that if its not here, I won't be either.

[jenni_xx]

Angela - I didn't describe any site. No such site exists.

You do understand that everything that I said I had become aware off was from various outlets - media, blogs, forums, etc etc?

I was in no advocating that this site becomes an accumulation of such such sites, an "all in one place" site if you will.

Paula - thank you. The first person to reply to my post who actually understands AND addresses the points that I was raising.

And the reason for that is the reason that you state - we are not all out. I have long held the belief that we are our own worst enemy - a group of people who wish to remain invisible while asking for acceptance at the same time. We're an idiosyncrasy at best. We strive for acceptance yet want others to do the dirty work that enables us to enjoy such a status. And in that respect, I do understand why we are not exactly looked upon as advocates who can help further the acceptance of trans-people. We ride on the coat-tails of acceptance, and mumble under our breath our annoyance when such acceptance isn't attained. We're the bullied little brother, not able to stand up for himself, instead asking others to stand up for us instead. And when that doesn't work, we'll go back to asking "why did that person look at me funny when I asked to try on a dress in a shop". Or "why do I find it hard to be myself in public" without actually going out in public and experiencing it first hand. I.e. those kind of thoughts reside only in our head, safe in the knowledge that we can go back to living a life that is expected, without actually putting ourselves out there to be judged, and live, accordingly.

And then I'm met with a reply that says that I miss the point. That this site is all about acceptance. That, to me, is a joke, and one made in very poor, and very ignorant, taste.

[CynthiaD]

Actually the "hot" issues do come up from time to time. Mostly it's just the same old stuff being hashed out again for the umpteenth time. Mostly we've moved on to more important things, like how to deal with personal issues, how to deal with family, how to go out for the first time, or how to walk in high heels. These things are infinitely more important than removing the T from LGBT. No, the world isn't leaving us behind. We've left the world behind.

[susan54]

It could be said that there are three main categories on this site, with little overlap. There are those who are on their way to transitioning to female, novices to the whole thing, and experienced crossdressers (me included) who are confident going out dressed. The recent publicity about famous people re-assigning their gender rather leaves us mere crossdressers out on a limb. I am not sure how far we need to go - I find no problems AT ALL in going out and trying on clothes, getting beauty treatments, or dining out or even staying on hotels. But all of this is anonymous - the last hurdle is being able to do all this openly, going to work or socialising in whatver clothes we want.

[NicoleScott]

I won't comment on all the issues, but only about newborn identification:
When I was born they looked between my legs and said "it's a boy" and wrote "male" on my birth certificate. I was then and still am a biological male. With rare exceptions, people are born male or female. Your suggestion that children be allowed to determine their own , I hope you are referring to gender. That is not so easily determined. There are still way too many people who think gender is just a nicer way to say sex. Note which is asked for on forms you fill out.
A child showing signs of gender-variance doesn't necessarily need gender therapy, but the parents sure could use some counseling.
I'm all for acceptance and accommodation for those who are variant, but not by neutering everyone's sex and gender.

[jenni_xx]

Cynthia - and those things are deleted from this site.

The issues you mention are personal. You say "we've moved on to more important things". I'm sorry, I completely disagree. That is the reason why I highlighted the several threads that appear on the first page of this site. Those are important things, but they are not "MORE important things".

You say that "these things" are infinitely more important than removing the T from LGBT. Too whom? To you?

Your response is one of the reasons why I wrote my post. Your view is so self-centered. It's all about YOU. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. But it need not be at the expense of anything "other" ("other" to you). This IS an issue, and it should be talked about. You have effectively dismissed it, because it's not something that YOU need to talk about. And that, all said and done, is my issue.

I want to climb out of myself and talk to others who are willing to do the same. Get out of our comfort zone - address the issue, talk about it, not censor it based only on the reason that "I can't be bothered", or "it doesn't affect me".

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Your suggestion that children be allowed to determine their own ,

I have to stop you there.

That is NOT MY suggestion. That is something that I have read.

[AlleyKat]

If that indeed was the entirety of the message in that post, then you are correct and I grossly misinterpreted it, though as you can clearly see, I'm not the only one. Read in the correct light, it sounds like a call to stop the small discussions about day to day life as a cd and to tackle bigger issues. Doing that would be missing the point of this site.

I truly meant no personal disrespect, and am sorry for the misunderstanding.

[NicoleScott]

Yes, you did say you read that. I thought your next sentence, beginning with "Instead", was your comment, not a continuation of what you read. It seems that your entire post was "I have read....."

[Eryn]

Anyone who has been here for a while knows that a chilling effect applies to certain topics of discussion. Some are prohibited directly by the rules, while others are avoided regardless of merit because we have learned that those topics tend to get deleted.

It's a tough balance to maintain, and the admins do as they see fit.

I do feel that the forum is oriented towards older folks. They're the ones who need support and they are the least likely to get it from their own age group. The forum was instrumental in helping me to overcome my irrational fears. Even though certain important topics are verboten, I have at least been able to get in touch with other TG people to discuss them.

[jenni_xx]

If that indeed was the entirety of the message in that post, then you are correct and I grossly misinterpreted it, though as you can clearly see, I'm not the only one. Read in the correct light, it sounds like a call to stop the small discussions about day to day life as a cd and to tackle bigger issues. Doing that would be missing the point of this site.

I truly meant no personal disrespect, and am sorry for the misunderstanding.

Alley

I said in my opening post that "such concerns (which are undoubtedly valid to the person writing them) are "concerns" which should be asked. I'm not for one moment advocating a site in which such concerns shouldn't be asked.

After that I put such concerns in "their place" in the greater scheme of things - what I meant by that was that more serious concerns should and can be discussed, but not at the expense of such personal concerns (which should always, and will always be raised).

For me it's not "one OR the other". It can simply be both.

Alley, I know that you mean no disrespect, but I appreciate you saying that anyway. No need to apologise. I'm finding that in having to explain myself more is down to me not explaining what I meant in the first place, so for that the fault lies with me, not you. I will say though, that the "seemingly" trivial nature of this site, as in "do I look good in this" (as much as it is valued and appreciated and welcomed), may have left to a false sense of security - that everything can be ok, when the truth is that there are so many issues still to be resolved, and we are part of the group who can help resolve them. Instead, we seem to be becoming a subset of the "T" community that is distancing ourselves from the topical issues, and as a result, being left behind.

I've heard so many trans-related stories in the media, on feminist sites, and indeed in public, including my own friends, that simply do not include crossdressers. A while back, we were afforded our own name on equal terms to transgendered people (at that time they were referred to as transsexuals), but now we're falling under the same term - the same umbrella - as transgendered. Yet we are not the same. Just as we're not the same as genderfluid, or bigender, is misgendered. These are all terms that encompasss the subset of the T of LGBT, but it is nevertheless a definition that doesn't define who we actually are. And this is something that is being lost. In translation so to speak.

I see it as a serious issue. And want to discuss it here, with a group who identify the same as I do. Put simply, I want a voice. I don't want to be bracketed with someone who I'm not, even if it is convenient to do so.

[MissDanielle]

My parents think I am mentally ill and don't understand that LGBT isn't a choice.

[AlleyKat]

A little ways off topic, but this really makes me wonder where I fit into all these labels. I am trans g, but do not plan on ever under taking any physical changes. So I will be biologically male in most every sense in the word, and dressing as female. If a clear line needs to be put between trans and cd, where do I, and others like me, fall?

Not really looking for an answer, just musings that come up reading that reply.

[ReineD]

I want to climb out of myself and talk to others who are willing to do the same. Get out of our comfort zone - address the issue, talk about it, not censor it based only on the reason that "I can't be bothered", or "it doesn't affect me".

You are advocating for education, change and activism. This is a good thing. The world does need to become more aware of the rights of TSs (and in a different way CDs … more on this later).

But, in order to engage, one needs to find agreement among a group of people who will then be willing to join in the vehicles for change. This is not going to happen here for the simple reason that the spectrum of CDs/TGs/TSs/non-binaries/fetishists/agenders/polygenders/pangenders/bigenders/man-in-skirts/and every other TG-umbrella faction you can think of is wide indeed and is extremely diverse, not only in self-identification but in the intensity of the desire to dress. Members either have staunch opinions in favor of or against any issue you might want to bring up, or it is not important to them. In other words, not everyone here crossdresses for the same reasons. It’s been my experience that many people come here with a pre-defined idea of who they are and what they want, which no amount of discussion changes.

Back to the parenthetical note in my first paragraph, a great many of our members are not interested in dismantling or upsetting their male status-quo or the notion that gender is non-binary even if it is fun to fantasize about being a woman. This is why you find so many fun-type threads here. This forum is a place to relax for a lot of people and is not a life-line for them.

Besides, just about every topic you mentioned has been and will continue to be covered here. Mods do not delete threads because they are sociological in nature or they are controversial. Mods delete threads because often, members cannot agree and the discussion devolves into flame wars by the vocal few, which I dare say would be counter-productive to your aims. Still, those who are interested in these topics do participate when they come up. Some topics actually are discussed a great deal here (bathroom threads and "TG" definition, sometimes ad nauseam). Some topics dealing with transsexualism are discussed more in the TS section. You’ll find articles dealing with many of the topics you mentioned in the Media section. Sociological topics simply don’t interest everyone, and so those threads seem to have low participation.

So if you’ll take a suggestion, whenever you do find a blog, article, etc that you feel merits discussion, please do post it in the Media section. It will not be deleted, but often there will not be a lot of participation. And of course you will get a lot of discussion about any transition-related topics in the TS section.

In order for this forum to survive, a prevailing attitude has to be, "live and let live". :)

[Meghan4now]

Wow, Jenni, I think you raise a lot of issues and questions. I really don't see this forum being well equipped to address everything you mentioned in one fell swoop.

First of all, I don't see the demographics of this forum being very homogeneous. Members here are an aggregate of many people on the "TG" spectrum, and are here for a variety of reasons, and are often in vastly different circumstances. We have everything from post op TS ladies to kids spoofing for fun and other trolls. (don't believe me? I got a bridge I can sell you) This is social media. It is going to self organize to a large degree.

I do see some of the topics that you mention from time to time, some with well thought out answers, but just as often poorly tthought out wishful thinking and out and out delusional responses. There are separate areas for interests and topics of greater interest to certain segments.

And yes there are taboo topics that greatly dissapoint me. Religion for one. I get that we really don't want flame wars and I have no interest in starting one, but for many here religion is a hugely important topic. Especially to those who may have a serious issue reconciling past hurts or have been disaffected.

Anyway the forum, as I see it, generally follows what the members want it to be. If you are keen on improving the content, my question for you is what are YOU going to do about it? 430 posts since 2006 doesn't seem like you are contributing to the change you want.

[AngelaYVR]

Angela - I didn't describe any site. No such site exists.

That's why I used "if". "If" this site were to turn into a political, banner waving forum then I would depart. I do not muster under some flag, I venture out on my own terms so that can express myself and find balance in my life. I come here to read the stories of others as they relate to the daily ups and downs of being a CD and occasionally interject my own views.

Fortunately, I can't foresee any of it happening. We are part-timers, most of us, a point that brings the scorn of a lot of TS (not all) down on us with some frequency. We are therefore not so likely to get political as we have an exit hatch and nice silky parachutes.

When I get dressed and interact with the rest of the public, I feel like I'm doing a lot more than the people squabbling over nomenclature and whether or not Jenner is helping or hindering the cause.

[Tracii G]

I understand the activism part as in feminism,trans whatever but some activists can be rude as all get out and super pushy demanding you acknowledge them.
Sort of being in your face and having something to prove.
Types like that nobody likes just because the are rude and hateful.
Most trans women I know just go about life as the woman they are and don't see any reason to be rude.
As a TG/CD I do what they do just go about my day being kind to people I come in contact with.
To me being kind and positive to the general public will do some real good for the trans community in the long run.
Being a snarky, bitchy,rude activist just makes things worse.

[Gretchen_To_Be]

In order for this forum to survive, a prevailing attitude has to be, "live and let live". :)

The best comment on this thread--thanks Reine. I sense a bit of a combative attitude with the OP...spoiling for a fight because we just don't get it.

My posts tend to be trivial and about fashion, but that is just a way to express the tip of the iceberg. Maybe the OP can compartmentalize her (or should I say "his") CD activities and be happy as a man. Great. I think there are many of us who dress to express repressed femininity (try saying that 3 times fast) and we use superficial topics and some levity to keep from going crazy. I just want to look and dress like a woman...and situation permitting, I would do so 24/7. Frankly, I don't care where that puts me on the spectrum. It's obvious from this forum that there is gender expression all over the map, and after all, it's uniquely personal.

I don't feel an obligation to educate society about CD or advance our cause as a new pillar in the diversity wars.

Thanks again Reine for your contribution.

Gretchen

[jenni_xx]

I do not muster under some flag,

You do actually, whether you like it or not. You are a representation. Again, whether you like it or not. You are not living your live in isolation. You are posting (some) of your life on the internet, which is world wide, and permanently available world-wide. Ok, you yourself may be still be able to be anonymous, but your words, and what you say, online, are not. Those are here to stay.

Once again, I'm not asking for this site to turn political. By the same token however, I'm asking that this site doesn't ignore political issues.

Your response does not help, for what you have effectively stated is that you'll have your (anonymous) say, then retreat back into your own safe world. You, by definition, are helping no one. If you're ok with that, then fair enough. Just understand that when push comes to shove, when issues that do affect people like you, you will equally have no say, and instead have people, whether you agree with them or not, speak for you.

[AlleyKat]

I'm confused about why it's so important that these matters are on this PORTION of this site. When ever anybody has stated that they are in favor of your subjects being in their own segment, you argue against it. It has also been pointed out that there is a section specifically for the topics you requested. You are calling for a change in atmosphere for the site, and when a majority says we don't want it, you tell us we are wrong.

But then you state that you are not being combatative.

[AngelaYVR]

This claptrap above (Jenni's) is PRECISELY the reason I hate pseudo-political discussions, someone is always trying to tell you what to think and what you are. You have just answered your own question as to why there isn't much of it here.

[jenni_xx]

Angela, you seem to be angered by my post. I'm sorry that you feel that way.

I'm not trying to tell you what to think. My last post was merely saying that what you DO think has an affect.

You ARE expressing your view PUBLICALLY, on a PUBLIC forum. That matters, at least to me. I do think that, in general, CD's are being left behind when it comes to trans-issues that are being discussed politically. I, for one, don't want to ignore that. Nor can I control how such issues are being discussed in the public realm. I just want a voice in such a discussion, and my post here is ultimately a call to arms - to get some support or recognising that we, us, crossdressers should have a say, or at least have our voice heard, in such a public debate.

You have instead chosen to see my post as an attack, a "spoil for an argument" between ourselves. I can't help that. But that does sadden me that you think that way.

My post has made one enemy. I'm just sorry that you feel that way. All I ever wanted to do was to open up a discussion that can speak for all of us, and our current standing in the very public, very topical, debate that is happening right now.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm confused about why it's so important that these matters are on this PORTION of this site. When ever anybody has stated that they are in favor of your subjects being in their own segment, you argue against it. It has also been pointed out that there is a section specifically for the topics you requested. You are calling for a change in atmosphere for the site, and when a majority says we don't want it, you tell us we are wrong.

But then you state that you are not being combatative.

Who, exactly, have I said is wrong?

[AlleyKat]

I was talking to a friend earlier about people not understanding some things, and just won't and that you just need to move on. I'm taking my advice and abandoning this thread, it's turning into the very thing we are arguing that we don't want.

[ReineD]

You, by definition, are helping no one.

Well, Angela is helping herself to the best of her ability. Doesn't this count? :)

There's a children's book that my SO (who is a part of this community) has kept since childhood because its wonderfully philosophical message is deeply meaningful to him.

The book is "Frederick (http://www.teachingchildrenphilosophy.org/wiki/Frederick)", about a mouse who is different from the other mice, but whose contributions are just as valuable. It's a lesson in accepting that we all contribute to our own, unique abilities.

[jenni_xx]

Well, Angela is helping herself to the best of her ability. Doesn't this count? :)

There's a children's book that my SO (who is a part of this community) has kept since childhood because its wonderfully philosophical message is deeply meaningful to him.

The book is "Frederick (http://www.teachingchildrenphilosophy.org/wiki/Frederick)", about a mouse who is different from the other mice, but whose contributions are just as valuable. It's a lesson in accepting that we all contribute to our own, unique abilities.

Reine, does that message not work both ways?

I've expressed my view, said when I disagree (I've gone through my replies in this thread and not once have I dismissively said that anyone is wrong - the closest to this was when I said that I "completely disagree").

I've had a PM insinuating I'm a "colossal twat". I've said that I don't want this site not to discuss issues that are important to any individual (see my op). The overall point to this post is that I'm worried that cd's are getting left behind when it comes to the plethora or transgender issues that are abound in the media today. My over-riding point being that I want us to maintain a voice, have a say, in such.

Of course it counts that Angela is helping herself. Does it count for anything that I'm expressing my own concerns here in the hope that I can help myself also?

But this isn't just about me. It is about all of us. I don't wish to speak for all of us, but I would like to think that what I do say, as a member of this community, is at the very least something that is worth listening to. As it stands, I feel that I my voice means nothing, that I'm just being a "twat", a colossal one at that. My post here wasn't intended to ask everyone to stop talking about what THEY want to talk about. It was simply "I've heard this, I've heard that, and I want some back-up because I feel what I've heard isn't representative of my part in the transgender community.

Maybe I am Frederick. Maybe I am different from the other cd's here (the other mice). Using your analogy, does that make Frederick the mouse a twat who should "give it a rest"?

[Sky]

Ladies, gents, or whatever name you identify with, personal attacks only detract from the ideas you're trying to convey.

My (hopefully non-aggressive) comment is, no social movement, construction or organization is fully comprised of activists only. Lots of people support universal health care or the right to own guns (to mention two on opposite sides of the political spectrum) yet only a few participate actively of the political debates. It's human nature. Let those who only want to discuss nail polish hues live in peace.

[jenni_xx]

Let those who only want to discuss nail polish hues live in peace.

I'm not saying that those things shouldn't be discussed (as I said in my OP).

Just to be clear, I'm all for such discussions (I've created threads on the same things myself, and valued the feedback from such threads).

Again, this isn't an Either or Or scenario.

I do agree with the general premise of your post though. I actually don't think anyone on this thread has posted a reply that is actually aggressive (that was saved for PM's to myself).

I don't know what else to say, other than sorry that I misjudged this site. Sorry that the members of this site felt that I was making an attack on them. Sorry for raising an issue that is seemingly controversial. Sorry to anyone who I may have offended.

[AlleyKat]

Let those who only want to discuss nail polish hues live in peace.
I'm pretty sure that was an attempt at levity.

Final observation.

No one is saying theses things shouldn't be talked about. We are saying we don't want to talk about them here. Mainly because it introduces negativity and hurts cohesion.

For consideration on this point, we were not able to successfully discuss wether or not we could succefully host these discussions without feelings getting hurt.

Not casting blame, just stating fact.

[jenni_xx]

Alley, no disrespect, but you joined this month, you're 29 posts in, and it seems that you've got a better handle on this site than I have, despite me being here since 2006 (although admittedly I'm hardly a frequent poster).

Anyway point taken on board. :)

[ReineD]

Reine, does that message not work both ways?

Absolutely!

So in this thread it means that you voice your desire to speak of more political things (as you did), but at the same time acknowledge that it's OK if other members don't want to participate. And the members who do only dress at home or go out in public and do their own thing should acknowledge that there are some people in this forum who want to participate in the more political threads, and that's OK too.




I've had a PM insinuating I'm a "colossal twat". I've said that I don't want this site not to discuss issues that are important to any individual (see my op). The overall point to this post is that I'm worried that cd's are getting left behind when it comes to the plethora or transgender issues that are abound in the media today. My over-riding point being that I want us to maintain a voice, have a say, in such.

Well, that's unfortunate. People shouldn't call each other names when they have differences of opinion. Still, you are saying that you want "us" to "maintain a voice" (a common voice?) but some members don't feel the need for a common voice. So these people should be allowed to go out and do their own thing, without being judged by the people who want to be more political. And they shouldn't judge you for wanting to discuss some political things.

There is a middle ground, there always is.




Maybe I am Frederick. Maybe I am different from the other cd's here (the other mice). Using your analogy, does that make Frederick the mouse a twat who should "give it a rest"?

We're ALL Fredericks, no matter what we contribute. :)

And no one is a twat.

[Greenie]

I do have to say that I prefer threads that are of a political or philosophical nature. As a GG I often find it hard to participate in the forum and have taken to not posting often. It's when I see posts that I think I can contribute to that I partake. I often have the feeling that I would love to see more discussion based threads of this nature. However, when I see a post that doesn't interest me, I just don't respond. This seems to me that it could go both ways.

[Gabby6790]

I love the post about the little things. As someone who is recently exploring this thing, I find them immensely helpful.

I also love the support from everyone that covers the whole TG/CD spectrum. That are so many different ways of doing this but most people are accepting and inviting.

If I am reading it right the OP is pretty specifically speaking about CDs who want to be OUT. For that segment of the group I do think that some more thoughtful activist type discussion would be nice. I also DO feel that us CDs are being left behind. I have thought about how wonderful it is that transsexuals have gotten so much positive media representation. On the other hand, I don't see that for CDs.

Wouldn't it be great to have a CD character on a family sitcom? I don't think we are far from that but we aren't there yet(not that I know of or in my definition of a CD). There is also a big problem with violence against TGs. Couldn't we who fall under that umbrella rally around that flag discuss how to bring awareness to that situation.

Like I said, I kind of get the OP.

[Jonni Lin]

I have be a member for about 2 weeks, I am 50 not married (anymore, thank you God) straight and came to terms with myself about my feelings and fears. While I won't call myself a cross dresser because I am not cross dressing I am putting on the clothes of either Jonni Lin or Randy.
Saying all that, I just love this site, it fills all the questions that we may have and that we know we are not alone (at least tell they shut down the internet) and other people have the same type of feelings. I was on a lot of other site, mainly 'man' stuff in my 'man mode' before, I left them all because it was all about who was or had the most macho thing, #ucking society. Shit I forgot the main point I was thinking, oh well.
love and peace

[kittie60]

I have read all the posts here and I would have been thrilled to death to have all this discussion going on back in my day. There was nothing,nothing at all to help us older ones out. Not even much in the libraries. Sure if you were in the city probably,but I grew up in a small rurall farming community. This has been a very informative sight for me and probably for the seniors as well.

[PaulaQ]

I understand here why politics is an unappealing topic for most of you. You feel this compulsion to dress like a woman, and you just want some peace and some fun, an escape from a world that will strip you of at least some privilege if you are out. Further, because you can present as men, you feel you'd lose that privilege for nothing.

I get it, I really do. The same thoughts went through my head too.

What you need to think about, though, is that this past year, extreme social and religious conservatives lost on same sex marriage. They'll do their best to stop further gay rights advances, but they've lost on gays. They know it too.

So these folks are coming after trans people.

Many states have floated legislation to limit trans rights. My state, Texas tried 7 different anti-trans bills, the worst of which would've slapped us with a high fine and a year in jail for using the women's restroom. These bills failed - we stopped 'em in Texas. We've stopped 'em pretty much everywhere this year.

However, last month, Houston voters, overwhelmingly voted down an equal rights ordinance because it was called "a bathroom bill", by the right. Houston is the FOURTH largest city in the US. It has a huge LGBT population, and an out lesbian serving as mayor. This ordinance should have passed. It didn't because the opponents of it used a simple, but nasty slur against trans people: "No men in women's restrooms." The governor and lt. Governor called us rapists and pedophiles, bankrolling a nasty commercial showing a shadowy man confronting a little girl in a restroom.

They are going to bring this strategy to your town, unrolling LGBT friendly laws town by town.

One of the presidential candidates has vowed to remove the executive orders that Obama has put in place for trans people.

And all the failed anti-trans bills will be back next year, new and improved.

You can ignore this stuff, but you do so at your peril. It would not take much for some of these folks to pass laws that outlawed crossdressing, and effectively trans people. So go ahead and pretend this doesn't matter, but don't be surprised if you one day find yourself in a cell next to mine.

We are not talking about differing political views here. Some of these people are irrational.

And if you still don't take this seriously, consider that in Houston, the folks who defeated the equality ordinance used 1/3 the budget of the LGBT forces who supported the ordinance. That's right - we outspent them three to one, and they still kicked our asses. And folks, their war chest is way bigger than ours.

[Acastina]

Wow, Jenni, I think you raise a lot of issues and questions. I really don't see this forum being well equipped to address everything you mentioned in one fell swoop.

That was pretty much my take on the OP. It comes across as an overwrought potpourri of impressions from media stories, issues that have seemingly been raised in the general culture but not fully developed or thought through, and more than a little incipient hostility and exasperation. I kept trying to catch my breath reading it. Perhaps a legal analogy will help explain: in California direct-democracy law, initiative measures (laws proposed by popular petition rather than originating in the legislature) have to deal with only one subject matter and cannot be omnibus measures (such as combining a property tax change with gun regulation). Closely related provisions pertaining to a single issue, yes, but only one subject matter per initiative.

The format of forums like this one is somewhat similar: A topic is raised for discussion. If it's not prohibited content, it goes up and draws whatever responses it draws, whether it's inherently trivial or profound, highly personal or of broadly general interest. The problem I have with the OP is is its breathtaking scope of matters that might seem to fit in relation to each other but are really quite separate, as if a broad net had been dragged through the media ocean and everything gender-related came up with the fish. It's difficult to respond meaningfully to such a scattershot OP because it asks too many questions in no particular order or logical scheme.

Yes, some radical feminists have strong negative opinions about some variations on the gender binary. Yes, heterosexual male, part-time crossdressers are different from transitioning transsexuals or non-op transgenders. And so on. But I don't really grasp the call of the OP question about being "left behind". Regardless of progress in the larger culture in the direction of greater diversity and tolerance of gender variance, there will always be biological males who are drawn to wearing traditionally female clothing but have no larger agenda around it and gingerly explore how big and public a deal they want to make of it, and that's the central focus here.:2c:

[Vickie_CDTV]

Not everyone has to be out and proud. Someone who just likes to wear dresses at home to relax does not need to be out about it, and in some cases really should not be. Some of us just like to wear the clothes and fashion and such, and it is natural some just want to talk about shoes and hosiery and whatnot.

[Rhonda Jean]

An excellent post, Jenni. Not that I'm in total agreement, but your point was very well made.

As to the topics on here. I think we see the same (trivial to many of us) topics arise because there are new people arriving all the time, and to them they're asking the question/commenting in their own unique way. Sometimes it just feels good to have a place where it's OK to talk about it. It doesn't bother me. In fact I often wish that those small things excited me as much as it does the not-yet-so-jaded. I remember those times pretty fondly. Those of us who've been at this for a while and in particular those who've been on the forum for a while rarely participate just from disinterest. I sometimes participate when something strikes me. I'm not one to save up for the intellectual topics. In fact, given how I like to wind down in the evening I'd rather talk about short skirts and high heels than be pissed of at being a politically disenfranchised entity.

As far as activism goes, I'm no activist. Maybe it counts for something that I go out, try to look my best, and always go out of my way to treat people kindly and with respect. I buy things at the shops I visit, I tip well at restaurants, and help old people cross the street (well, maybe not). I don't/won't do outreach, visit schools or civic groups or lobby the legislature. I'm not sure you'd want me to speak for you, nor am I sure I'd want you speaking for me.

I think we sometimes take ourselves too seriously. I'm certain I don't deserve any special dispensation. If I were to be an activist I'd probably need to feel persecuted, or at least wronged. I have no expectation that the general public will ever understand me. I don't understand myself. I have spent a hell of a lot of time in public. I've been infrequently afraid. Probably no more often than a genetic woman. My truly negative experiences have been few. I've avoided places and circumstances where I predictably would be met with ridicule, hatred, and violence. I don't see trans activism softening those places much. Just maybe, indirectly, we'd soften the redneck view of us by having his wife come home and say "I had the nicest person come into the shop today...". I know that sound like a p---y way to go about it, but we'll never have that much effect by yelling at him or legislating acceptance.

We (those of us on this forum) do not have a unified voice. We all have one unifying thing, habit, need, desire, but we come at it from an infinite number of directions. As a group, our differences are greater than our similarities. We're cliquish and judgmental of one another. There are a few of us with Miss America looks, and a few who'd kick anyone's ass who would suggest they should shave their beard. There are a lot of points along that line, and at each of those points is someone who thinks their way is the right way, their ideas are the right ideas. Hardly a coalition. But maybe, just maybe, if we'd all sing a few bars of Alice's Restaurant... well, we know what they'll think if there's two of us (obscure, I know).

Jenni, I think your heart is in the right place on this. I hope you're not always this serious, though. I feel better when I wear panties under my male clothes at work. You should try it!

[OCCarly]

Many states have floated legislation to limit trans rights. My state, Texas tried 7 different anti-trans bills, the worst of which would've slapped us with a high fine and a year in jail for using the women's restroom. These bills failed - we stopped 'em in Texas. We've stopped 'em pretty much everywhere this year.

However, last month, Houston voters, overwhelmingly voted down an equal rights ordinance because it was called "a bathroom bill", by the right. Houston is the FOURTH largest city in the US. It has a huge LGBT population, and an out lesbian serving as mayor. This ordinance should have passed. It didn't because the opponents of it used a simple, but nasty slur against trans people: "No men in women's restrooms." The governor and lt. Governor called us rapists and pedophiles, bankrolling a nasty commercial showing a shadowy man confronting a little girl in a restroom.

They are going to bring this strategy to your town, unrolling LGBT friendly laws town by town.

They are trying to do that with a ballot initiative here in California. Some bunch of "Christians" from Texas is going around to all the evangelical churches here gathering signatures. But we are not going to let a bunch of carpetbaggers from Texas tell us how to run things here in Cali. Things have changed a little since the bad old days of Proposition 8.

To the OP, Jenni, FWIW, there are other places on the web that address just the concerns you listed, but they are different from this place. They lack the stability, the sense of community, and it gets depressing spending my time among a bunch of much younger transgenders who are transitioning at the speed of light compared to me because I am (successfully so far) trying to preserve a marriage and a career.

I am here because this is a stable community of folks who are here for the long term, and I am here because this is a fun place to be. I go to other places on the web to engage in activism. I am a member of the Transgender Law Network (as my male self) and I do engage in activism in the real world.

But not here. To me at least, this is a place to relax and have fun.

[heatherdress]

One of the strengths of this forum is the diversity of topics, which probably reflects the significant and wonderful diversity of our members. Topics range from requests for help, individual progress reports, favorite colors, work issues, to intense relationship and self-discovery issues. Most people seem to participate on this site for enjoyment. Many participate to escape, share dreams and reduce stress. I do not feel this site is a primary vehicle for advancement of political issues. Information sharing, education, support, learning, encouragement - yes. Promotion of political agendas - no. And the world is not going to pass us by because of what is discussed or not discussed here. Letting the world pass us by is a personal decision we individually make. There are many other venues and opportunities to voice our opinions and fight for our personal rights and issues that are important to us. That's what I do. And as already noted, there is also opportunity to engage in hot topic discussions, if we want to, but those topics usually have limited appeal and site life span.

Acceptance of one another and respect for each other's opinions are further strengths of this site. I am disappointed, however, when someone takes it upon themselves to directly criticize and diminish individuals and replies, as has occurred in this thread. I also have never seen anyone publically share a private message in this forum that another member sent them. What is shared privately should stay private, and problems reported to moderators.

[Stephanie47]

Over the years I've had a post or two moved to and from one section to another because an administrator thought it was more appropriate elsewhere. There are many heady issues in other sections, such as "Loved One" or "Media." The format also limits access bu casual observers. I have to assume there are many out there reading those superficial issues you annotated and laughing their asses off over a beer or glass of wine.

I've also had a comment deleted once or twice because I absently used an incorrect pronoun. I saw in a prior post that jenni would prefer to have a male pronoun used for him. Yes, there are some on this site who are just plain ordinary cross dressers...men who like to wear the clothing of women for some reason that we do not know. There are a lot of gut wrenching posts of this site. Marriages destroyed. Ongoing marital disputes. Loss of friendships. Shunning by employers.

I read about Texas not being friendly. Move to Washington State and several of its more populated cities. The law protects gays, lesbians, transgenders and cross dressers. We're legal here. We're protected here! Yet, I like to keep my cross dressing in the closet because legal protection does not confer acceptance.

If you want to post about trying on a dress in a store or driving en femme, I'm here to listen.

And, if I want to read about heady stuff I just read two article from Good Housing about transgender boys and girls in one family, and, a husband who became a woman's wife. The heady and serious stuff is readily available.

[MissDanielle]

Wouldn't it be great to have a CD character on a family sitcom? I don't think we are far from that but we aren't there yet(not that I know of or in my definition of a CD). There is also a big problem with violence against TGs. Couldn't we who fall under that umbrella rally around that flag discuss how to bring awareness to that situation.They did that with Bosom Buddies years ago. They tried it again with Work It and it crashed and died.

[PaulaQ]

I read about Texas not being friendly. Move to Washington State and several of its more populated cities. The law protects gays, lesbians, transgenders and cross dressers. We're legal here. We're protected here! Yet, I like to keep my cross dressing in the closet because legal protection does not confer acceptance.

Dallas is friendly. It's a little oasis of (semi) tolerance. We've had laws that protect us for 13 years here. The forces of uptightness are trying to roll it back. I pass, I've had GRS, and I have documents. Basically every place is friendly for me. Many of us are not so lucky, and the laws that are on the books don't actually protect you from much. They just discourage, slightly, people who would harass us. The fines for discrimination in most city ordinances are not sufficient to stop a business from discrimination. How safe Dallas is, is another matter. Three months ago, a guy was convicted of killing his trans girlfriend here in Dallas. He got 10 years probation. No jail time. Yep. So rolling back these laws, and ratcheting up the rhetoric, encourages certain kinds of people to attack us.

The way to gain acceptance is to come out, and have people understand you. This is a strategy that is being pursued by trans people, and (hopefully) supported by our often feckless gay allies. Ideally, we'd do what gays did to gain acceptance over the past 20-30 years before the next presidential election. I'm not optimistic that we'll succeed at that.

I don't believe they can win in the long run, by the way. However, things here could become exceedingly unpleasant for quite some time. Hopefully nothing too unpleasant happens, like a major terrorist strike, that makes some of the more dangerous candidates seem sensible to voters.

Talking about things like this on this forum make me really sad. One of the things I worry about is the rest of us in the trans community throwing y'all (and the drag queens) under the bus in exchange for a modicum of survivability from a hostile administration. Believe me, there are some of us (not me), who would do this in a New York minute. If the religious extremists start to jack with our access to medical transition, or otherwise put transsexuals at risk, using crossdressers as a pretense, we won't honestly have much choice but to try to distance ourselves from you. It'll be nasty, really nasty. And it'll probably kill some people - which is why I would never support it. But I'm only one woman, and I've heard others in the community who'd throw CDs to the wolves on a good day. And what I worry about are days that are far from good.

Look, I'll drop this because I know two things:
1. Not everyone is cut out to be an activist, or even up to coming out. I get that. I'm not trying to shame anyone, I promise.
2. I don't think that most of you who aren't out really have a sense of what can happen if people who are actively hostile to us all gain the white house and the congress.

Well, let's hope really awful things don't come to pass.

[Eryn]

They are trying to do that with a ballot initiative here in California. Some bunch of "Christians" from Texas is going around to all the evangelical churches here gathering signatures. But we are not going to let a bunch of carpetbaggers from Texas tell us how to run things here in Cali. Things have changed a little since the bad old days of Proposition 8.

It would not do to be too confident. Remember that the carpetbaggers from Utah easily pushed through Prop 8 by rallying the Morman, Black, and Catholic church populations. It took the courts to stop the madness. Unfortunately, I don't see the courts giving our issues the same weight as they did gay issues.

[NicoleScott]

I thought there were forum rules against religious and political discussion. Or does it depend on what's said and who said it?

[CarlaWestin]

Men who like to dress as women, yet don't want to be women, are happy, by and large being men. Is it that this particular "subset" is most confusing to all?

Why does this need to be confusing? It just is what it is.

As I've stated numerous times, being genderfluid, I just enjoy being wherever on the gender compass that I enjoy at the moment. Even in full fem, I'm still male by definition. It just depends on whose definition. Look at all the comments about Caitlyn Jenner. Yet, as she told her mom, "It's still the same me."

So, how do I want society to view me? Either positively or, not at all! The real issue is that gender and gender emulation is skewered by archaic and primitive superstition.

[pamela7]

there is at least one elephant in this discussion room (and I don't mean in this thread) that cannot be discussed. I find it foolish but live with it for the benefit of the other aspects. However, being a holistic therapist whose work has been described as more gestalt than gestalt, i know a lot of the stuckness and trivia is due to "skirting" around the elephant, and that a lot more progression, healing and more rapid acceptance would emerge if the existence of the elephant were acknowledged.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Pamela's comment reminds me of Disney's elephant with long girly eyelashes and a tiny skirt. Perhaps that's what the studio had in mind?

[Mayo]

I thought there were forum rules against religious and political discussion.


Politics, with the exception of TG rights in the Media Section
Religion of any sort, no exceptions

I'm not entirely sure what constitutes a 'political discussion', though I have a feeling it means mentioning specific real-world groups and explicitly advocating for or against their positions.


[N]o social movement, construction or organization is fully comprised of activists only [...] yet only a few participate actively of the political debates. Many people will often support a cause but remain silent and leave the work to the activists on the front line. Often the challenge of activism is to get these voices heard, in a voting situation or in terms of financial support for the cause or just to stand up and be counted. If the silent majority stays silent, it doesn't count for anything. If you oppose how certain groups are treated in public or in the media, for example, but don't speak up about it, such treatment will continue because 'nobody objects'. Silence is approval.


For the most part, y'all aren't out, don't participate in trans activism, and gain benefit from efforts to make sure you have access to public facilities en femme because of the efforts transsexuals and non-binary trans. Sure, I know some CDs who fight the good fight. Most of you don't.Agreed. CDs don't have much representation in the general activist community. I myself confess to being mainly an 'armchair activist', though I do attend several rallies each year (mainly in support of Indigenous peoples' issues and against racism and violence against women) and occasionally sign petitions and write letters to politicians.


But, in order to engage, one needs to find agreement among a group of people who will then be willing to join in the vehicles for change.Exactly. If marginalized groups don't stand up and make themselves visible, they'll continue to remain marginalized and invisible. Asexuals and bisexuals are gaining visibility to combat the myths about them, as are trans (TS) people and bigender/genderqueers. There's no reason CDs can't get together and do the same, if they wish to. At a minimum, people who want to change the status quo need to agree to engage in activism.


I understand the activism part as in feminism,trans whatever but some activists can be rude as all get out and super pushy demanding you acknowledge them.Sometimes you need to be 'in your face' in order to get your message across. Being nice and polite often means you can be ignored by the establishment because you're not causing any problem and therefore they don't have to deal with you, then when years, decades or centuries of being ignored erupts and there's rioting in the streets you get vilified. Many conservatives appear to object to gay rights because they just 'don't want to see that'. I agree that it's a difficult line to walk, but advocating for one's right to exist involves some discomfort for all concerned.


In order for this forum to survive, a prevailing attitude has to be, "live and let live". :)We need to respect each others' positions, and that includes acknowledging that some people would rather be left alone to mind their own business. But 'live and let live' doesn't mean you can't take an activist role. Acquiring or defending rights doesn't necessarily mean taking them away from someone else. People (both within and outside this forum) may disagree about the right course of action, but there's no question that discussion is needed. Naturally, threads dissolving into flame wars is not 'discussion' - sometimes people need to 'agree to disagree'.


So if you’ll take a suggestion, whenever you do find a blog, article, etc that you feel merits discussion, please do post it in the Media section. It will not be deleted, but often there will not be a lot of participation. And of course you will get a lot of discussion about any transition-related topics in the TS section.I would certainly be in favour of seeing some more explicitly activist threads.

[Sarah Doepner]

Thanks Sarah, that is an honest, well intentioned reply, and one that I really appreciate.

I do have to ask - why do you feel that it would be a discussion that is "a little out of place on this main page"? It is a discussion that doesn't have to take the place of any other discussion, and it is one that is topical, and one that doesn't need to be at the detriment to any other discussion (that is, it doesn't have to take up a space on the main page that would have otherwise been given to a more "apt thread" (for this site). We are part of the issue - this site is the number one place for crossdressers (or at least it advertises itself as such).

Basically it's a formatting issue. One of the things that is attractive about this site is the ability to focus our attention on things that we are interested in at the time. Since time is a limited resource for many members here, the ability to drill down into sections on "Clothing and Makeup" or "Photos" or "Media" or "Writers", etc. is a real boon. My suggestion is also based on the wide variety of opinions represented in this thread by the members as well as the difficulty in finding the right words to actually define our concerns. Much of what we see in this thread isn't disagreement about the merits of understanding and supporting Trans issues but expressing it in a fashion that is understood by all. As such, we have a thread that for a period of time was rather combative and generated some hard feelings. That sort of thing tends to drive some members away as they are really looking for examples of success stories on first time out trips. Having a distinct area for Activism or Controversy would allow the user to understand what they were headed for and hopefully allocate the time needed to fully explore the issues being addressed.

The strength of the site is it's diversity and, unfortunately, some of our sweet spirits see enough controversy in real life or over on Facebook and I'd be afraid that too much of the same here would drive them away. Maybe not. Maybe I don't give them credit enough for their strength or remember how easy it is to skip over threads that don't interest them. I advocate for a distinct area because I agree we need to be aware of those forces in society that are a potential threat and need a response or represent measurable progress and merit support. With that area in place, those who still need to focus on their own progress can do so and still understand that when they are ready to expand their horizons to community, there is a resource for that as well.

[Eryn]

I thought there were forum rules against religious and political discussion. Or does it depend...

What I stated is the reality of an initiative passed that oppressed part of the LGBT community and the likelihood that a similar initiative will be passed targeted directly at us.

My mention of churches is not a discussion of religious ideology, simply a statement of who our enemies are. This has been well documented.

[Sky]

Sometimes you need to be 'in your face' in order to get your message across. Being nice and polite often means you can be ignored by the establishment because you're not causing any problem and therefore they don't have to deal with you, then when years, decades or centuries of being ignored erupts and there's rioting in the streets you get vilified.

I wish I could believe this. I support mass movements and public demonstrations, although to be honest cd rights are not my main concern. However, modern world (and likely ancient too) political decisions are fueled by lobbying and behind-the-curtain deals, not by direct popular action. A single guy/girl/noun of your choice talking for five minutes to the right congressman, secretary or frigging rich guy (usually over wine and hors d'oeuvres) does more than a hundred rallies. And I think that's the real story behind the exponential growth of the LGBT movement.


But 'live and let live' doesn't mean you can't take an activist role.

Of course not. It means that while some do take an activist role, some others stay at home watching Tootsie (yes I have a thing for levity, sorry)

[IamWren]

If marginalized groups don't stand up and make themselves visible, they'll continue to remain marginalized and invisible. There's no reason CDs can't get together and do the same, if they wish to. At a minimum, people who want to change the status quo need to agree to engage in activism.
.

I'd have to disagree with your statement that "there's no reason CDs can't get together and do the same..."

The reason CDers can't get together and do the same is because there are a hundred different reasons someone chooses or (more importantly for our sisters with GD) feels compelled to their core to wear women's clothes. There is no consensus that we can point to that gives leverage and momentum for activism.

The other reason is trying to change the perception of the general public about CDers is an uphill battle is that some in our community make it more difficult because of the very reason they dress. I'm speaking specifically of the fetish dressers who like to go out in public. Yep... I went there.

Look, if that's your thing, more power to ya. But that person who is a fetish dresser is going to be looked at with contempt by the general public. It is what it is. And that fetish dresser becomes a representative of CDers by being spotted in public. Unlike some of the very passable, very blending CDers who simply mingle, do their daily life, go unnoticed and go home, it is the over-the-top, six-inch heels in a micro-skirt going to the grocery store crossdresser who gives the general public their impression of what a CDer is all about.

[Lorileah]

OK people, start playing nice. Flaming not allowed. Calling other members names, not allowed.

Jenni- If you would look at the whole site, the things you bring up are often in the media section.

This whole thread is going south in a hurry. Before anyone posts anymore read the FAQs. If you have questions about that contact an Admin or Mod. One warning, this gets anymore inflammatory or divisive, it is gone. Keep it polite

[Mayo]

I agree that the diversity of the CD population prevents adopting a monolithic front, just as trying to ride the trans wagon won't work as a strategy. Several ideas occur to me off the top of my head, however, and there is some commonality with trans (TS) people - the whole arbitrary construct of gender. I see no reason why it couldn't be done.

[Teresa]

Jenni,
We all chose to be here for our own reasons, whether trivial or life changing , if you use the forum correctly you will find a section where you can air your views .
I found it very easy to forget that the MtF section is an open forum, what you post is read by members and non members alike around the World, it might be the reason why many subjects are trivial to your mind. The point to remember is they often describe small stepping stones members make along their journey, in that context it's a little unfair to dismiss them as unimportant .
Does it really matter what is passing us by as long as we can live with our CDing needs and problems with the people most important to us ?

[IamWren]

Several ideas occur to me off the top of my head, however, and there is some commonality with trans (TS) people - the whole arbitrary construct of gender. I see no reason why it couldn't be done.
I can buy off on that Mayo. I assume what you mean is rallying behind the idea that gender is not the binary/black&white concept that is so pervasive to but to try and educate and inform the masses to the idea that gender is more of a scale?

I'll concede that. Certainly that is an idea that a majority of CDers could get behind despite the reasons for crossdressing.

[PaulaQ]

I have a more nuts and bolts reason for suggesting commonality between us - it's basically impossible to differentiate in any practical way between a CD and a TS just starting transition. Likewise, it's impossible in any practical sense to say which CD will or won't transition until they do.

People in transition need access to public facilities - some of us will die if we don't transition. CDs need access to public facilities too - but for most of you these are "nice to have", you'd survive if you couldn't really go out en femme. Still, because of the overlap between our groups in terms of members and needed public access and non-discrimination protection, it makes sense to me for us to work together.

[Beverley Sims]

My goodness this thread took off.

If you want to change the world overnight there are a lot more political, savage and sarcastic sites you may visit.

The attraction of this site is that it is more of a help forum for those just out and discovering themselves.

We generally don't throw crap at each other either.

Others can tell stories of their past and others relate to it by telling of their experiences.

There is the lounge to discuss that building stuffup or crap car purchase in your life and others will laugh with you and make you feel better.

If your interests are transgendered there are other sections to read.

These also contain help and suggestions.

No there is not an opportunity to change the world overnight here but it can be done ever so slowly and nicely to boot.

Maybe I will go out and buy me a pair right now.

Does that mean this reply should be in fashion? :-)

[IamWren]

...but it can be done ever so slowly and nicely to boot.
Maybe I will go out and buy me a pair right now.
Does that mean this reply should be in fashion? :-)

Only if you had said what color panties you're wearing right now. :D
(sorry... couldn't help myself. just trying to interject a little humor)

[arbon]

What are you being left behind from really?

Most crossdressers are really only held back by their own ego and fear - not so much because of how they are viewed and treated by others.

The issues of a crossdresser and transsexuals are oceans apart.

[Tina_gm]

I have been a moderator on a political forum. They really should just 1st be called a cage match forum with politics being what is fought about. I have seen political discussions disrupt and ruin what was otherwise nice family functions, holiday parties. Political discussions are a beast within themselves. Whether they should or shouldn't, they are

From what I am trying to follow of this thread, the OP is advocating getting out and having our voice be more heard. Well, true enough words. However, there are a great many of us on here who like to dress, but also like the lives we have. For many of us, it isn't our biggest issue in our lives. possibly because we are just not far enough on the TG scale, and other priorities in life are higher than our gender issues are.

This forum is a great place for those of us who fall in such a category. We still need lots of support, and a place to go. We are quite a minority in the grand scheme of things. While I am all up for intense discussions involving family and friends, workplace acceptance. Still, I am glad we do not get hardcore wrapped up into political discussions. I left that far behind. Not because I am no longer interested or involved in political discussion, but just not on here. I do not come here for that. Sometimes, it might just be a good thing to discuss how to polish my nails too.

[Jazzy Jaz]

I largely agree with Mayo and Paula Q that activism, awareness, education, and political assertion of our rights is not only important but essential for us as a group. I also agree that what takes place on this main page is very important, particularly as individuals looking for support in our own journeys and being able to share that in a fun, supportive, community like environment. I myself am guilty of not using the media page as the title misled me and I assumed it was more to do with pop culture, celebrities etc. I think that if it becomes MORE clear (not just to experienced members but new ones too) that the media page is a/the arena for activism/awareness then more of us might start using it and have some deep discussions develop on it while those who arn't ready or interested in it can still get what they need.

As far as cders uniting, I think diversity IS our strength and IS the point. Dispeling the long and deeply held gender binary assumption and achieving equal human rights and acceptance as human beings is our most basic goal. It won't happen over night however if they didnt start building Rome, then there wouldn't be one. Fetishist cders simply ARE a sub category of who we are as a group and rather than being embarrassed of them or feeling like they hold us back we should emrace them and stand solidly with them as we would wish for others to stand solidly with us. Again, diversity IS our strength and point. We don't want the general public to assume cders are all the same (including that we're all blend ins) because we're not. BDSM, fetishism, and sexuality for that matter are beginning to lose thier "taboo" stereotype (look at the impact of 50 shades of grey) and like cding it is an area that needs awareness/education, maybe in a sense that area would be like part of the socially active fetishists' portfolio. Its up to all of us to let the world know that we're NOT all fetishists but also that we're NOT all blend ins etc etc and thats the beauty of it. I also think its important to remain allied with our TS sisters/brothers. We don't need to leave the arena that they lead, we just need to show up for the fight and let it be known that CDers exist under the TG umbrella and we have the right to exist and we are here to stay. This is coming from someone who is largely NOT out YET, but I do have TG disscusions with people and use education/awareness as my primary tool and I am deeply involved in asserting Indigenous rights, cultural revitalization (which will include our perspective on LGBT) and cross cultural teaching with the public which is an essential strategy for Indigenous as well as LGBT folks and any other group looking for acceptance and understanding. But I also love to hear about high heels, garterbelts, and lipstick!

[Meghan4now]

Oh and by the way, "Religion" may be banned, but constantly malignant it with total impunity and total lack of aknowledging that some people have a GOOD experience is perfectly fine. Well unless it is secular humanism, druidic paganism, scientology or some new age crystal hawking cult. Those are ok and really cool dude.

[AlleyKat]

#edit# I was reminded politely where that quote applied, and am recending that comment, the rest still holds

Honestly. Everyone. I think this thread needs to die. I know I was one of the first to flame, I'm dealing with personal issues and exploded here, which isn't right. But this is a bunch of people are arguing the same side and everybody is so heated that no one notices.

Would it be nice if cd's got together (with tg's and tg or not) and made themselves heard? Yes. Is this main page the place? No.
My favorite word to describe why not has also been used to describe this thread. It's divisive. The whole reason I was worried about politalk here is that I was afraid it would rupture this safe haven. Yes, I'm new here, and yes, as a tg its not the perfect fit (something I didn't realize was an issue until this thread) but it had a huge impact on me accepting me. The amount of support here is amazing. This has been likened to burying our heads in the sand... But that's the point, really. We all know that there is shit out there. This is a place to be comforted and focus on the positives.

Admin, can we please get a forum for this, so those who want these kind of talks can start their discussions and we can let this thread go?

[PaulaQ]

I understand why people don't want threads like this one on this forum. And I think it wouldn't be helpful to have these types of discussions continually. Walling this off in a new forum, or "Media" isn't too great either though because those sub-fora just don't have the readership of this one. I'm hesitant to spend a lot of time writing something that will be seen by 10 people.

So I really think that the best answer is for discussions like this to pop up once in a while, then die down. I realize that isn't so much a rule as a flexible bending of the rules, provided people don't go nuts.

What I really wish we had here was a place to seriously discuss relationships and sexuality.

@arbon - I assert CDs have the same fundamental issue as transsexuals. Namely that society won't let either of us be true to ourselves without exacting a terrible price. The difference is transsexuals die if we don't pay the price, while they have the "luxury" of putting on a fake front indefinitely.

[Eryn]

...The issues of a crossdresser and transsexuals are oceans apart.

In that case, I've had a very long swim!

I may have more mature attitudes about them, but the issues I face are pretty much the same now as before.

[Mayo]

Walling this off in a new forum, or "Media" isn't too great either though because those sub-fora just don't have the readership of this one. I'm hesitant to spend a lot of time writing something that will be seen by 10 people.
What about a subforum named 'Activism'? Those who want to look can do so, while those who don't can stay in the main forums. I get the feeling, however, that your audience would probably be limited to a dozen (or fewer) regular contributors regardless of where it's located. In addition, the rules on 'political discussions' might have to be somewhat modified (or at least clarified) for such a forum as activism is pretty much inherently political.


What I really wish we had here was a place to seriously discuss relationships and sexuality.
I realize that 'Have you slept with a guy' doesn't constitute a serious discussion of the sort I imagine you're contemplating. I don't see anything in the FAQ/Rules forbidding frank discussions of sexuality as long as nobody's posting images or using 'foul language', though I'm not sure if the rule against 'explicit sexual content' might shut something like that down.


I myself am guilty of not using the media page as the title misled me and I assumed it was more to do with pop culture, celebrities etc.
Likewise.

[Jazzy Jaz]

I agree with Mayo's forum title Activism. Then it would be clear to everyone what the forum is about and those who wish to partake can while others dont even need to look at it. I share Paula Qs concern about small numbers reading it and I would encourage for non member guests to be able to access it as it would have the potential to provoke thought and maybe encourage some of the guests who are looking for this type of discussion to become members.

[Gretchen_To_Be]

What are you being left behind from really?

Most crossdressers are really only held back by their own ego and fear - not so much because of how they are viewed and treated by others.

The issues of a crossdresser and transsexuals are oceans apart.

Well put. There are plenty of crossdressing members who are brave and tough enough to go out in public, and readily explain to people they meet that they don't want to be women, they just enjoy dressing that way. There is no pretense there; they know they are men, don't pretend to pass, and I think some enjoy the engagement--and yes--controversy of it. They have conquered the fear of what people think of them...and they are "stateswomen" for the CD cause indeed. I respect them greatly! That requires quite a bit of ego and self confidence. If that's what you mean by ego and fear, I agree. Those that move beyond that are amazing free spirits. Then there are those that wonder what would happen if they met a boss, coworker, relative or friend in that situation. Fearful indeed.

I believe part of that fear is not of whatever repercussions or embarrassment one would face personally by presenting in public, but of the thrall or inexorable pull those public outings might have. So, you go out dressed the way you see yourself in your mind's eye. You are not outed, you have pleasant interactions...you meet kind, sympathetic people or fellow CDs...doesn't that reinforce all the good feelings about CD? You do it more and more, get better and better at it...and then wonder what it would be like to just live that way? I suspect many self-proclaimed crossdressers are really on the TS end of the spectrum but the fear wins out.

Maybe some CDs will never experience or feel that pull, but as many have expressed here...going out and interacting with the wide world are the first steps. They thrive on living as the alter ego until it is no longer "alter."

What about the effect a transition would have on others? How do you deconstruct a few decades living a lie without doing major damage on loved ones? There is big fear there--and justified. We don't live in a vacuum.

The longer I spend on this forum, the more I believe that most CDs...if they were honest with themselves...would or could envision more. But as you point out, they are held back. For some, the pull forward wins out. For others, situational factors give them pause. I don't know that it is all ego and fear. Maybe it could be love for others, or respect, or knowing the destruction transition would leave in its wake.

You have my immense respect for following your path, but it's not for everyone, and the timing has to be right. They are oceans, to be sure...but you start with tidal flats, then shallows, and at some point after treading water you see the drop-off of the continental shelf and then just abandon caution and swim for the other shore. Some drown. Some make it to the other side.

Gretchen

[CathyWallace]

The world has radically changed in the last 2 decades. No person is getting left behind, but some are being run over. This forum may no longer be on the cutting edge of social change, but thank goodness that it isn't.

[Rhonda Jean]

[QUOTE=Gretchen_To_Be;3857953 So, you go out dressed the way you see yourself in your mind's eye. You are not outed, you have pleasant interactions...you meet kind, sympathetic people or fellow CDs...doesn't that reinforce all the good feelings about CD? You do it more and more, get better and better at it...and then wonder what it would be like to just live that way?
Gretchen[/QUOTE]

Excellent point. My therapist points out that one of the factors in my gender equation is that I only do the fun stuff when I'm dressed. That's a big part of the escape aspect of it. When I'm dressed I don't do anything I don't want to do. It's left to the male side to do all the work and shoulder the responsibility, so I get an even further skewed view of being a woman.

[sometimes_miss]

Your response does not help, for what you have effectively stated is that you'll have your (anonymous) say, then retreat back into your own safe world. You, by definition, are helping no one.
I disagree. I'm one of the closeted. As such, I get to hear the uncensored opinions of what people REALLY feel about us. And that's very different from what they all will say to your face, whether you want to believe that or not.
It also allows me to argue on our behalf as one of their own; one of the 'normal' people. And it makes a much bigger impact when it comes from 'one of their own' than it does when it comes from one of those whose lives that are under discussion.

[PaulaQ]

I believe part of that fear is not of whatever repercussions or embarrassment one would face personally by presenting in public, but of the thrall or inexorable pull those public outings might have. So, you go out dressed the way you see yourself in your mind's eye. You are not outed, you have pleasant interactions...you meet kind, sympathetic people or fellow CDs...doesn't that reinforce all the good feelings about CD? You do it more and more, get better and better at it...and then wonder what it would be like to just live that way? I suspect many self-proclaimed crossdressers are really on the TS end of the spectrum but the fear wins out.

Yup, that's certainly possible, that more folks here than are suspected would transition. But I'll say more about that in a minute.



What about the effect a transition would have on others? How do you deconstruct a few decades living a lie without doing major damage on loved ones? There is big fear there--and justified. We don't live in a vacuum.

The longer I spend on this forum, the more I believe that most CDs...if they were honest with themselves...would or could envision more. But as you point out, they are held back. For some, the pull forward wins out. For others, situational factors give them pause. I don't know that it is all ego and fear. Maybe it could be love for others, or respect, or knowing the destruction transition would leave in its wake.

Allow me to say some things about this:
1. You seem to be under the illusion that you, me, or anyone else who transitions had a choice in this. We did not. Your gender is a force that you cannot stop. If you need to transition, you will, or you will be destroyed.

2. Most of the damage to loved ones is self-inflicted. My ex-wife didn't have to kick me to the curb after I came out to her. In the process of doing that, she did a lot of damage to herself because of her reactions. Those reactions aren't my fault. Indeed, if you want to think about the damage we do, my plan B was suicide. I'd already tried it once. As crappy as this plan - transition - seemed, it was a LOT better than plan B, both for me, and for my family.

A lot of us do put this stuff off for a very long time just because we are trying to preserve the status-quo for loved ones. I certainly did that. I should've transitioned in 1990. I didn't because of my infant son. I then proceeded to make things worse for others by marrying my second wife, and never telling her about any of this stuff. So for 20 years, her life was materially better than it would otherwise have likely been.

So in that case, I helped one person, my son, and hurt another, my future wife. How much I really hurt her, as opposed to how much she hurt herself is debatable. Yeah, I get it she didn't want to stay married to a woman. I'd agreed to that, and we'd worked out a plan to ease her transition to life without me - when she just abruptly kicked me to the curb. At that point, I was in self-preservation mode - I needed a place to live!

It's a miracle I didn't end my life before the end of 2013 - I was that miserable. Had that happened, the damage she sustained would be far, far worse, at least financially, and at least as bad emotionally for her, and worse for our kids.

3. You also seem to think that the common path is to CD more and more, going out in public more and more, until transition is inevitable. That does happen for some, but that's not true for most of us. It definitely was not true for me. I didn't leave the house, fully dressed, until after I'd come out, and realized that I had to transition, at least in some form. I didn't fully dress until about a month before I came out to myself as trans, and two months before I came out to my wife.

Let me just reiterate this - you do not control this. You can feel you have control by stopping it for a time, but you do this at your peril. By the time I started transition, I'd waited far too long, and had HRT not had a rapid and dramatic effect on how I felt emotionally, I'd have been dead before the end of the year. I barely hung on until I got HRT. Not all of us experience this - but it's a lot more common than you'd like to believe.

[Sky]

You seem to be under the illusion that you, me, or anyone else who transitions had a choice in this. We did not. Your gender is a force that you cannot stop. If you need to transition, you will, or you will be destroyed.

Sorry but that's not an illusion, it's a fact. We humans have choices in every decision we make. Whether repressing a decision you want to make because of external social factors -family, work, environment, you name it- may be terrible (though not necessarily so), it's always a possibility and does not have to end in your "destruction". I understand you went through really bad times, and I respect your drive to make others consider the issue seriously. But every one of us is a universe in itself. There are no "one size fits all" rules.

[PaulaQ]

Sorry but that's not an illusion, it's a fact. We humans have choices in every decision we make. Whether repressing a decision you want to make because of external social factors

You need to listen to me. For people who really are transsexuals, without transition, destruction is a likely outcome, and for some of us, it is inevitable.

I've been sober for 26 years. I tell people "I'm powerless over alcohol" - and that's true. If I drink, I'll completely lose control and be back where I used to be. I cannot control it. Should that happen, there is no assurance that I'll ever return to a state of sobriety again. Death, in my case, would be a probably outcome. That's the path I was on 26 years ago. My only choice, the only path where I have control, is the choice to not drink at all. All other options lead to destruction for me.

So I have some familiarity with forces that are beyond my control. Sobering up was not easy - I was a chronic alcoholic. I had to drink in the mornings to steady my hands. I'd been drinking for all of 8 years by that point. Many, many people do not recover from alcoholism.

When the gender dysphoria I experienced hit a new, all-time high in 2012 / 2013 - I realized that I was dealing with something that made the compulsion I had to drink alcohol seem trivial, by comparison. It wasn't a little bit more powerful than I was. I wasn't powerless in that it was twice as powerful as me, or ten times as powerful. No, it felt orders of magnitude more powerful than I was. And it did very nearly destroy me.

I have watched the same thing happen to other trans people. It doesn't happen to all of us, but it happens to enough of us that this is nothing to trivialize. I really thought I could control this, keep it clamped down. I did so for 18 years or so - during those times, I didn't dress *at all*. No cross gender stuff. During my suicide attempt, I realized what a fool I'd been.

The emotional pain I suffered from GD was not survivable. There is NO physical threat or torture you could make that I fear more than having those feelings again. If you held a gun to my face, and told me, "go back to being a man, or I will shoot you here on the spot", I'd tell you to pull the trigger, and get it over with. I wouldn't think twice about that. There is, and I want you to really understand this, NOTHING I wouldn't do to avoid those feelings again. Should I ever suffer from them again (unlikely - I feel great now and believe I'm unlikely to have them again thanks to my transition), I'd end my life immediately. I will not go back to those feelings. Medications didn't stop them. Nothing stopped them except for my transition.

I've seen people on this forum from time to time who are similarly afflicted to me. Some of them have gone on to transition, and are living reasonable lives now. Had they not, my opinion is that their survival was unlikely.

So no, most of you won't face this. But enough do that you should take this seriously. A great many of us suicide, and that might seem selfish, but if it does, it's only because you don't understand what this feels like. I wouldn't wish what I experienced on convicted terrorists.

If you are fortunate enough to be able to put off transition for your entire life, then you are lucky. You didn't get what I got, I guess. The trouble is - I didn't know how bad this was until it got really, really out of control bad. Had someone told me what I risked, I might have taken different actions earlier in my life, before it became a situation where my choices were "transition, or die."

[Acastina]

Sorry but that's not an illusion, it's a fact. We humans have choices in every decision we make. Whether repressing a decision you want to make because of external social factors -family, work, environment, you name it- may be terrible (though not necessarily so), it's always a possibility and does not have to end in your "destruction". I understand you went through really bad times, and I respect your drive to make others consider the issue seriously. But every one of us is a universe in itself. There are no "one size fits all" rules.

With respect, I'm not sure you comprehended Paula's whole quote or the rest of her explanation: "If you need to transition, you will, or you will be destroyed." and "Plan B was suicide."

I read her post as much more personal and as advice offered to the deeply conflicted, not at all as a universal prescription for anyone else here. I disagree that we have choices in every decision we make, unless you mean that denial to the point of despair, substance abuse, or self-harm is a choice. Hanging fire indefinitely IS a choice in that sense, but her point was (I believe) that you can run, but ultimately can't hide, from gender issues that are larger than wanting to cross-dress now and then (or even often). It is no favor or service to loved ones to live in misery on the edge of despair because you fear the truth will hurt them, because there's always something (and a lot a big things) held back and not fully lived. Trouble is, life goes on, and each of us only gets so much time; put it off too long, and you have a wasted life.

I suspect that most members here are not that deeply conflicted, but choosing to deal with it some other time can be a trap from which one may find it's too late to exit. Correct me if I'm wrong, Paula, but that's how I read your post.

[ReineD]

We humans have choices in every decision we make.

With regard to transition, I think there's a large swath of people who could go either way and honestly, their own personal life circumstances will dictate how far they want to take this. This explains, IMO, the decision to not transition fully for so many people.

But, there are a few individuals who have NO choice. They are at the furthest end of the disphoric spectrum and for them, the choice is to either transition or die.

[PaulaQ]

but her point was (I believe) that you can run, but ultimately can't hide, from gender issues that are larger than wanting to cross-dress now and then (or even often).

Yes, that's precisely what I meant. You don't know how big this is for you until you do. And by then, it may be too late.

Look, if you feel little or minimal depression and anxiety, and have never felt suicidal because of gender issues, you are likely in no danger at the moment. The thing is, if you start to feel those things, and they are worsening, then you need to seek help. People here look at positive stuff - stuff like how much and how often you dress. That is really the tip of the ice berg. The part below water is things like depression, and so that's what you need to pay attention to. It's the stuff you can't readily see that us so dangerous.

[Gretchen_To_Be]

1. You seem to be under the illusion that you, me, or anyone else who transitions had a choice in this. We did not. Your gender is a force that you cannot stop. If you need to transition, you will, or you will be destroyed.

You also seem to think that the common path is to CD more and more, going out in public more and more, until transition is inevitable. That does happen for some, but that's not true for most of us. It definitely was not true for me. I didn't leave the house, fully dressed, until after I'd come out, and realized that I had to transition, at least in some form. I didn't fully dress until about a month before I came out to myself as trans, and two months before I came out to my wife.

Let me just reiterate this - you do not control this. You can feel you have control by stopping it for a time, but you do this at your peril. By the time I started transition, I'd waited far too long, and had HRT not had a rapid and dramatic effect on how I felt emotionally, I'd have been dead before the end of the year. I barely hung on until I got HRT. Not all of us experience this - but it's a lot more common than you'd like to believe.

Hi Paula. Thanks for the discourse. Your experience is just that--your experience. It's not transferable to everyone suffering from some level of gender dysphoria. Believe me, I've had bad days, where I am sickened by the hypocrisy in my life, and ashamed of how much mental energy, time, and money I devote to CD, which could be devoted to my wife, children, job or some more productive endeavor. I'm often repulsed by my male--hairy--muscular--bony body, and I lament the effect of decades of testosterone. I've been a click away from ordering black market hormones from online pharmacies. I've had two visits with a gender therapist. I've looked into the local Planned Parenthood clinic to find the name of the transgender sympathetic doc that will start me on my journey.

Other days, I enjoy being a successful husband/father/business executive. Life is good. Those days I tell myself it's not worth throwing it all away, especially at my age.

Sure, GD never goes away...but it's not the all-consuming force for me that it was/is for you. I am under no illusion that you had a choice. I am grateful that I have one. But I also know that I am on that ledge...and if I ever got really good at CD...to the point that I could contemplate transition without making an absolutely farcical spectacle of myself...that it could influence my decision. I don't like making people feel uncomfortable. I don't want to be some champion of diversity. I'm not saying you are any of those things; again, this is very personal for me. I want to be graceful and classy, and behave with conviction and principle--the way I believe I present as a male. If I progress to the point where I could do that, then maybe all bets are off. Then there are my wife and my children. My wife is an adult and if I get to that point...well I guess it's her decision. But my children are innocent. They will be affected. And until they are older, I feel the weight of that responsibility.

For you it was black and white--transition or die--I get it. Can you accept that for some of us, there is grey? Under the right circumstances, I can see myself living as a woman. Hell, I think about it every day. But on the bright side, I have never been suicidal. I can't imagine that. I'm sincerely happy that you got out of that dark place.

The "more and more" path is well documented. I've only been actively CDing for 3 years, and I've seen many go this route. It may not be the path for everyone, but it is certainly common. My gender therapist told me that she's seen quite a few cases. I guess we can debate the statistical difference between "common" and "most" but what's the point? I concede that you are a verified TS, and your experience is valid. Can you envision a CD with TS tendencies that is able to keep the genie bottled up, for whatever reason?

Cheers

Gretchen

[PaulaQ]

@Gretchen - of course I can accept that there are shades of grey, many paths people take to start transition. The majority of this forum will die of natural causes without transition. There is no question about this.

The important things to really look at within yourself are two things:
1. How badly do I feel about my gender? Is that getting worse?
2. Who am I? What is my gender?

I hope none of you reading this view my hitting the wall of "transition or die" as some kind of acid test. That would be a lot like having your doc tell you - "you have blockage of your arteries, you need to make some changes," and then waiting until you were in the hospital for angioplasty, thus confirming your heart trouble, to do anything about your heart disease.

Waiting to hit the wall is an idiotic thing to do! I was certainly stupi

As for it being a unique experience to me, I beg to differ. I spent my summer vacation trying to get a trans woman I know out of a psychiatric hospital after her suicide attempt that was brought on by her insurance provider refusing to cover GRS for her. So she tried to jump off a roof, and got put into the men's ward of a psych hospital, which of course had no idea how to treat a trans woman.

There are plenty of other examples of this that I'm aware of. There's a highly probable one on this very forum right now.

I don't know if you know this about me, but I lead a support group for trans people here in Dallas. Unfortunately, I deal with things like this frequently. I know a great many trans people, both men and women.

I've reached out to a number of members here who were in crisis.

What all of you need to understand about your lives is how little control you have over them, really. At best you are on a surf board, riding a wave. You control your reactions, but you have zero control over the wave you ride.

To get back to the original topic, about being left behind, many LGBT people are being visible, open, and leading more authentic lives. Not doing this can be shown for every single group to lead to serious emotional and health consequences. Do any of you SERIOUSLY think you are immune from such effects? That your closet is actually making you safer? Because it isn't.

Living a lie, being fake, even if the truth is just "I'm a feminine man. I cross dress, I don't know why," will grind you down and make you sick of miserable. I'm not talking about transition unless that's what a person needs. But look, millions of other LGBT people have come out. I know it's hard, but most of them survive the process, and their lives are at least better because they no longer hide constantly.

edit: one last thought. Would everyone who feels they are in good control of their gender please stop crossdressing altogether, because it will make your life so much easier? What's that? You can't? Then why are people who aren't in control of something like this so sure they are in control over whether they will ultimately transition or not? I'm not saying y'all will - most won't. I'm telling you that YOU are not driving this. IT is driving you.

[Mayo]

For you it was black and white--transition or die--I get it. Can you accept that for some of us, there is grey?
With regard to transition, I think there's a large swath of people who could go either way and honestly, their own personal life circumstances will dictate how far they want to take this. This explains, IMO, the decision to not transition fully for so many people.

But, there are a few individuals who have NO choice. They are at the furthest end of the disphoric spectrum and for them, the choice is to either transition or die.
It seems that everybody is arguing the same point from different directions. I believe that both can be true, for different people - or for the same person at different times. While it isn't exactly the same thing, there are many gay men and lesbians who spend their lives in heterosexual marriages and never cheat, but who are unhappy because they are not with the person with whom they'd prefer to be; sometimes they do cheat, and marriages come to an end. Similarly, there are trans people who suffer little to no gender dysphoria but are still unhappy because they are not living as the people they should be. For many - GD or not - the stress eventually takes its toll, and the stats on suicide and mental health among trans people clearly support this. Yes, some can and do handle it without transitioning. Many cannot and do not. Some do not make it.

The more it is an integral part of your being, the more strongly trying to deny it will affect you, and I think this is an important part of what PaulaQ is trying to say. I might even suggest, for the sake of argument, that there's a difference between 'a man who sometimes puts on women's clothing' and a 'crossdresser' - the latter is an identity and denying that identity will create stress and pain, whereas the former is essentially a hobby and those who don't really care if they dress or not, or who do so only rarely, may not be impacted in a major way if they can't. It seems to me that most of the people on this forum experience various (non-zero) levels of compulsion about dressing, such that not doing so will cause at least some psychic discomfort, which will in turn have physical effects on health. Can we say for certain that someone's heart attack wouldn't have happened five years later, or even at all, if they'd been able to freely express themselves rather than repress that part of their identity?

[PaulaQ]

Mayo gets it.

Trading material possessions or even relationships for happiness or at least being who you truly are, is for suckers. These are the things most of you fear to lose. I understand that. But NOTHING outside of you will make you happy. Happiness, feeling like your life has meaning and richness, that comes from within. I can't promise that being open about your identity will bring you happiness. In fact, it may cause you some problems. (Feel free to read *any* thread I've started here if you think I have a "you go girl, nothing bad can happen!" attitude about any of the things we discuss here. I talk openly about plenty of problems I've encountered.)

What I can tell you with certainty, though, is that lying about who you are will insure that you aren't happy. This applies as much to CDs as it does to trans women. The difference between someone like me, and someone like a lot of you, is that I didn't have the luxury to keep up the pretense any longer. I hit the wall.

[Sallee]

Great post I just post my thoughts on spending almost a week as Sallee, one word "Fun" I think you make some good points, a lot of them I personally think are non issues, but others probably need to be discussed. This forum should be the place for that and they can be open, honest, and non threatening.
Thanks for you post I''ll have to think on it awhile

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Mayo gets it.

Trading material possessions or even relationships for happiness or at least being who you truly are, is for suckers. These are the things most of you fear to lose. I understand that. But NOTHING outside of you will make you happy. Happiness, feeling like your life has meaning and richness, that comes from within. I can't promise that being open about your identity will bring you happiness. In fact, it may cause you some problems. (Feel free to read *any* thread I've started here if you think I have a "you go girl, nothing bad can happen!" attitude about any of the things we discuss here. I talk openly about plenty of problems I've encountered.)

What I can tell you with certainty, though, is that lying about who you are will insure that you aren't happy. This applies as much to CDs as it does to trans women. The difference between someone like me, and someone like a lot of you, is that I didn't have the luxury to keep up the pretense any longer. I hit the wall.

What a terrible and mean thing to say. I admire your courage, no doubt. I've read your posts...all the pain and suffering. What you went through was supremely difficult.

I guess I am a sucker if I put the well being of my wife and children before my own. I guess I was a sucker when I spent 25 years in the United States Army, when my version of courage was putting my life on the line defending a free society, giving you your right to be who you are without prejudice. Definitely a sucker for having a happy 15 year marriage and 3 beautiful children. And how misguided was I for succeeding in business to give my family a comfortable life, wanting for nothing?

It's not a "trade." Who I will be is yet to be determined. Who I am/was is clear. I've been a selfless leader to my family, business, society, the military, my employees and Soldiers my entire life. There has been pride and joy with all of that which dwarfs any gender issues I have.

I guess I don't get it. What I do get is this: I fear becoming a selfish, self-obsessed vain old woman lording over others in the TG spectrum because they just don't understand, and aren't moving 2,000 mph toward transition. Are you looking for allies? Validation?

You aren't making any sense...you say it's a "luxury" to be able to compartmentalize GD, yet you lash out at those who are able to. This "Woe is me, I am more trans than you, you don't get it" recurring theme on the forum is tiresome. There is no greater zealot than the convert. Maybe a bit of respect for individual circumstances is in order. If you represent what being a trans woman is, I want no part of it.

[PaulaQ]

I guess I am a sucker if I put the well being of my wife and children before my own. I guess I was a sucker when I spent 25 years in the United States Army, when my version of courage was putting my life on the line defending a free society, giving you your right to be who you are without prejudice. Definitely a sucker for having a happy 15 year marriage and 3 beautiful children. And how misguided was I for succeeding in business to give my family a comfortable life, wanting for nothing?


Hon, I apologize for saying it that way. Listen, you aren't a sucker at all, I shouldn't have said that. *I* was a sucker. I put everyone's happiness ahead of my own. I did it for decades. It doesn't always have to be about me, but the thing is, it was NEVER about me. The thing is - we only get one life to live, as far as any of us know. So when do we get anything for ourselves, those of us who sacrifice all for others?

I worked an enormous number of hours. I made a LOT of money. My wife had houses, cars, designer handbags - all sorts of things. My kids were happy. My wife was happy. I was miserable. I had all this stuff, all these things to show for my work - and it was all hollow to me. It was meaningless. I loved my wife. I hated having sex with her. I could buy anything I wanted, practically, at least within reason. I didn't want anything. None of it meant a thing to me. Ultimately, I bought a few things for myself because my wife really wanted me to have SOMETHING - I think she maybe felt a little guilty. So I did, but they meant little to me, for the most part. There was one exception to that, my observatory. I loved that. It took me a lot of time to build it and make it work. I grieved losing it after I came out. But it still didn't make me happy. It was a welcome distraction though - I was getting pretty burned out on work by that point, because that's all I ever did, work.

I had many of the things you speak of. I was married happily for 17 years. I had two kids. I grieved the loss of many things, during my transition. But at the end of the day, I found those things really weren't real - I had them because I lied about who I was. And they gave me little satisfaction or happiness. Don't get me wrong - I loved my wife. I miss her. I love my children still - only one of them really talks with me anymore. I continue to help all of them.

I'm handicapped, so unfortunately, the armed forces were not an option for me. But I'm not in a contest with you over bravery - I'll gladly concede that you are far braver than I am.

However, I'd challenge you about this one statement:


giving you your right to be who you are without prejudice.

I respect what you did, but this country is about as prejudiced as can be. I've experienced a great deal of it first hand, and I haven't had the worst of it. I know that.

I used to believe what you said. I tried to live as a conservative, straight, white male. I believed in what the US stood for, believed we could do no wrong. And then I fell out of the bubble of privilege, and noticed a great many things that are just terribly wrong with this place.


You aren't making any sense...you say it's a "luxury" to be able to compartmentalize GD, yet you lash out at those who are able to.

In a sense it is a luxury - you don't face death because you hide something about yourself. And not facing the worst of GD is definitely a blessing. You have time to plan what you might want to do, explore who you are, and figure out what, if anything you want to do about it.

Those things are nice. I didn't get them.

By the same token, I had to change. I had to come out. So now, I live a life that is authentic in ways that yours probably isn't. I hide nothing. It's wonderful. And I'm happy. And honestly, at this point, I can assure you that your GD is worse than mine is. Mine's basically gone. So which of us is better off? I mean I can't tell you or anyone else what would be better for you. But a lot of the things you take pride in sound like things I would've said - it was all stuff someone shoved down my throat at some point. None of it was what I wanted, and none of it made me happy. I hope it's different for you. I share my experiences because perhaps others will relate to them. If you don't, then I'm actually quite happy for you.

So I'm not saying you are wrong to do what you do, but I am challenging you to consider the alternatives. All of the stuff you speak of so proudly, and they are all great accomplishments, I am not trying to take that away from you - except for this:


I guess I am a sucker if I put the well being of my wife and children before my own. I guess I was a sucker when I spent 25 years in the United States Army, when my version of courage was putting my life on the line defending a free society

Which of the things you did so well were for you? If these things feel like choices you made because they best represent who you are, then I stand corrected, and you have done precisely what you should've done. I only ask this, because I really did put others ahead of me to the point that my life was just terrible. It was unsustainable. Eventually, I was used up.


I fear becoming a selfish, self-obsessed vain old woman lording over others in the TG spectrum because they just don't understand, and aren't moving 2,000 mph hour toward transition. Are you looking for allies? Validation?

Well, I guess I am an old woman. I'm certainly vain enough. I'm probably self-obsessed, although really, I'm no big deal. I don't think I'm selfish, but then again, I wouldn't. (If you have an example of that, I'd appreciate hearing it. You can PM it to me, I suspect the mods will lose their sense of humor if this turns into a name-calling bout between us.) I'm sorry that you feel I'm lording things over you, or anyone else here. I'm not or at least that's not my intention - but I can understand why it comes across that way, and I apologize for saying things in a way that has clearly hurt your feelings. I'm very sorry, Gretchen, and anyone else here who's taken offense at my words. I have had a fair amount of experience dealing with my own gender issues, and with those of other trans people over the past nearly three years, that's all I was trying to convey. I'm very heavily involved in support and activism work in the trans community. Even an old bat like me can learn stuff when immersed in it! :)

I'm here because two and a half years ago, I attempted suicide, in part because of feedback I got from this forum. After I regained some small (and at the time it was quite small) modicum of stability after starting transition, I came back to this forum and started looking for others who were getting advice that was, on the whole, as ill conceived as some that I got. I looked for people who seemed to be having a hard time here. People who were WAY more desperate than the typical CDer here. Most of the people on this forum don't worry me in the slightest. You, and so many others here, in my opinion, are in no danger of harming yourself any time soon, if ever. I think the worst problem some of you have is that you just feel compelled to hide part of who you are. I know what that's like - I think it's hard to be happy while hiding yourself. Perhaps it's a small enough part of you that it isn't such a big deal, and I simply don't understand what it's like for you. If so, I apologize.

But no, I'm not looking for validation. I'm not looking for allies. I definitely don't want any of you to go at 2,000 MPH towards transition. I did that because I was desperate. It is about the worse way to deal with this stuff that I can possibly imagine. I hope, in that regard, that I am a negative example. I don't want you to look up to me! I want you to go "Geeze! I don't want to end up like her!" and then do SOMETHING to avoid such dire straits.

I'm mostly looking for people who seem as if they are liable to kill themselves, or at least thinking a bit much about it. And I try to steer those people towards help. I do that in my daily life, as part of the volunteer work I do in the community. People tell me I've saved some lives. I know the truth - it isn't enough. It will never be enough. I am just a person - I am limited. I will never be able to do enough. Nevertheless, I try. And I do this because I get things from it that, unfortunately, forum rules do not permit me to discuss.

As for threads like this, I'm trying to accomplish several things:
1. CDs and TSs have some common ground in the fight against people who'd suppress us both. Please help yourselves, because it will help others like me, too. (I guess in that sense, I am looking for allies.) Being out, and being visible, will in the longer term, solve a lot of problems all CDs face.

2. Gender dysphoria - which most of you have to some extent, in my opinion - is unpredictable, and often progressive. If it starts to get worse, please don't be like me - seek help, rather than burying the feelings until they are unstoppable. Note - by "seek help" I'm not saying you should transition. But counselling couldn't hurt.

3. I know you and others feel like you are in control of your gender issues. But you can't even stop cross dressing. How are you in control of anything? And I am not saying this to put you down - I didn't have any control over it either. Maybe it doesn't take you as far as I had to go. If not, I'm really happy for you. I mean that. But it will take you where it takes you - you have no say in the matter, whether you believe it or not. If you seem to have choice, it's because it allows that.

4. I am also suggesting that a side benefit of being out is that you will get to be authentic and real as a person in ways you almost certainly do not understand. If nothing else, doesn't the prospect of no longer hiding seem appealing? I hated hiding all the time. I'm asking that you at least consider this. Doesn't the thought of not hiding have an appeal? I've never met a gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender person who looked me in the eye and said "Dammit Paula, I long for my days back in the closet." And I know quite a few LGBT people.

One last thing:

This "Woe is me, I am more trans than you, you don't get it" recurring theme on the forum is tiresome.

I'm very sorry you took that from anything I have said here. Believe me, I have fought that attitude here, and in my real life. If somehow I have conveyed that I think you are lesser than me, then I am sincerely sorry for that, because nothing could be further from the truth. I usually refer to this attitude you've stated as "Trannier than thou." (Think "Holier than thou...")

I don't think my pain is any worse than yours - or rather, I don't think that makes me more valid than you. Actually a lot of folks on this forum are in quite a bit of pain. I don't think I'm better than you are. I think we are the same, really. That probably doesn't make you feel any better though! So let me say it like this. I tell the world who I really am on a daily basis. I didn't do that in the past, and I find that to be uncomfortable, and ultimately intolerable. Perhaps I'm simply a weak person. I don't know. Now that I do not do that, though, I find I am MUCH happier, and I find that not hiding who I am is a relief.

Please understand that there are quite a few CDs here who are out. I wouldn't recommend anyone be like me - I'm a hot mess! But there are many here who are pretty open or at least partly open about who they are. They survived, and they seem pretty happy, and are pretty cool people (again, unlike me) too! Isn't it worth thinking about what they have, even if you think I'm awful? (I'm really OK with you feeling that way about me - don't be like me! I waited until I could do nothing but barrel head first into something that needs planning. I survived, but I have to believe it was dumb luck, because I was dumb.) I offer my story as a cautionary tale for people here. If you identify with anything I write, please seek professional help immediately.

[Jazzy Jaz]

Interestingly, similar to what Mayo said, I agree with MOST of what both of you have said.


Oh, and I agree with Reine D except I'd say more than a few.

[Mayo]

I've been a selfless leader to my family, business, society, the military, my employees and Soldiers my entire life. There has been pride and joy with all of that which dwarfs any gender issues I have.
In retrospect, I lost 11 years of enjoyment
If you feel that what you gained in validation was worth what you lost from denial, then you came out ahead and you are one of the lucky ones. On the other hand, if you are Leelah Alcorn, who was isolated by her parents, forced into 'conversion therapy' and committed suicide at 17, then it did not work out for you. I understand that your wife knows about your dressing and supports your need to do so. Do your neighbours? Your employer? Your old military buddies? If you don't need to do that, that's great. Leelah Alcorn did need to be out and to live as a woman, and she died as a result.

Again, you and PaulaQ are arguing different things, but they're just in different places on the same continuum. You're talking about your situation, and she's talking about hers, and they're different and so demand different responses.

[ReineD]

Oh, and I agree with Reine D except I'd say more than a few.

A few or more than a few ... I guess we need to use vague terms because there are no real statistics to draw from. :p

I said "a few" based on how many people have joined this forum over the years (in the tens of thousands), vs. how many people have fully transitioned (in the hundreds, if that). I'm not counting people who get on mild doses of HRT but who live male lives save for occasional crossdressing and can give the appearance they are male if they keep their hair short and wear male clothing. I don't think that a TS whose Gender Dysphoria was pronounced, could live that way.

[Beverley Sims]

With regard to transition, I think there's a large swath of people who could go either way and honestly, their own personal life circumstances will dictate how far they want to take this. This explains, IMO, the decision to not transition fully for so many people.

But, there are a few individuals who have NO choice. They are at the furthest end of the disphoric spectrum and for them, the choice is to either transition or die.

This to me shows the heart of the discussion here, leaving out individual discussions later in the thread, the first paragraph applied to me many years ago and the second paragraph illustrates two of my friends who just had to transition.

They were very successful I might add.

[Rhonda Jean]

All of us argue against a binary view of gender. Paula, I know you know that binary does not apply in the CD vs. ts argument, either. I'm certain your transgender issues are far greater than mine. Probably far greater than Gretchen's. They drove you to do things that neither she nor I will do. Gretchen is fully capable in speaking for herself, but I'll tell you (and you already know this) I've SUFFERED MIGHTILY because of what I am. Transitioned TS's don't have a monopoly on the difficulties brought on by cross-gender expression.

I agree with Reine on the "large swath of people who could go either way". I'm probably one of them. I may or may not be TS, but more importantly I'm not Paula. Your circumstance were/are uniquely yours. Your involvement and knowledge of this community is far greater than mine. I'm hardly and expert. I have, though, traveled way down the road. I don't think it's necessarily so that those of us who didn't go as far down the road are somehow less than someone else who didn't.

[PaulaQ]

All of us argue against a binary view of gender. Paula, I know you know that binary does not apply in the CD vs. ts argument, either. I'm certain your transgender issues are far greater than mine. Probably far greater than Gretchen's.

Well look, I needed a bunch of medical stuff, but that's really neither here nor there. That isn't really the hardest part - at least if you have resources to get medical care. Not all of us have those resources. Not all of us NEED medical stuff. I did, but really, there's nothing special about that in my opinion. I am no more, nor no less legitimate than you, or Gretchen, or Mayo, or anyone else on here. Yeah, the label "transsexual" fits me well. There's nothing special about that compared with anyone else on the transgender spectrum though, at least in my opinion.

I think the really hard issues all of us face are how other people treat us, and how society does not want us to be who we are. And I think those issues are really common ones between us for the most part. Because they really aren't about who we are or our unique circumstances - they are about how other people don't want us to be ourselves, whatever that may be for us.

Here's the common kernel we share - all of us in this discussion at one point or another greatly feared rejection from:
- spouses
- family
- friends
- employers
- churches
- many others
simply because we aren't like other people in some way. We feared (or still fear) judgment, ostracism, loss - and we rightly feared these things. The discrimination, stigmatization, and erasure we've all faced is, I believe, common.

There may be some people here who love being closeted. But I think most would welcome being able to be ourselves - in the case of a CD, to cross dress, at home, or in public, without judgment, or really comment, other than "you look lovely today", perhaps. In my case, I did an entire gender transition. Most of you would do nothing of the sort. But all of us feared how the world would treat us. And that is our central problem and it isn't any worse for me than for you. Why shouldn't you be able to be open about who you really are? I mean, is that right? The fact that you feel you can't, isn't that something worth doing something about?


Gretchen is fully capable in speaking for herself, but I'll tell you (and you already know this) I've SUFFERED MIGHTILY because of what I am. Transitioned TS's don't have a monopoly on the difficulties brought on by cross-gender expression.

I can't imagine that there are any significant differences between your experience or Gretchen's and mine. Different stuff may have happened, but I have no doubt that virtually everyone on this forum who is gender variant has suffered because of it. What they've suffered has been unfair, unjust, and uncalled for. We did nothing wrong - but we're characterized as rapists and pedophiles by some in society. So I completely agree with you, and please, anyone, if anything has said leads you to believe that I think you don't suffer, or that your suffering is trivial, please understand that isn't the case. I know many CDs, both online, and in person. I can see the pain in your eyes. It looks exactly like the pain that was in mine. Our journeys will be different, but the pain is the same.


I agree with Reine on the "large swath of people who could go either way". I'm probably one of them. I may or may not be TS, but more importantly I'm not Paula. Your circumstance were/are uniquely yours. Your involvement and knowledge of this community is far greater than mine.

My circumstances are my own. No argument from me. The only point I try to make on this forum is that all of us, it seems to me, face some type or degree of gender dysphoria. Some of us just need to look like women, to some extent, once in a while, or at least wear the clothes. For others of us, we just are women. For still others, we're something in between. None of us chose this - and none of us ultimately know for sure where it will go. Most of you will NEVER EVER do what I've done. I'm happy for you, I really am. But there have been any number of members here who stated clearly "I've been doing this a long time. I know myself. I'll never transition!" who are now in transition.

So I think that, plus the fact that not a one of us can stop these things we feel for any great length of time, tells us we don't control this part of ourselves. We just don't. This is the thing I try to warn people about. I'm NOT saying you are going to transition, or even that you should. I'm saying that if that's what is in the cards for you, you'll do it, or it will ultimately destroy you. It's possible that "destruction" will come in the form of a life you are in, but really never fulfilled or happy. In some ways, that's the worst outcome.

I'm saying "if you have symptoms like I did, seek help immediately because you are very likely in real danger." Because I know what I went through, and I know I almost didn't make it. And I know that many trans women and men will NOT make it - they will die. And so I feel compelled to warn others about it. I literally could not sleep at night if I didn't. And sure, it's wasted on most of you - indulge me if you can, but it's helped a few people, or so I'm told.


I'm hardly and expert. I have, though, traveled way down the road. I don't think it's necessarily so that those of us who didn't go as far down the road are somehow less than someone else who didn't.

I value the identity of everyone on this forum as much as I value my own. I think you are all legitimate. I'm a transsexual - big deal. I am no better than any of you. I'm not special. I do have some experiences - I try to share them. I hope they help someone. That's really my point for being here. I look for desperate people, and try to get them to seek help.

I suppose the main point I've tried to make in this thread, though, is that being closeted is, increasingly, a thing of the past. It's one thing to hide because you are doing something wrong, and don't want to get caught. But the folks on this forum who CD are NOT doing anything wrong. You should be able to express this part of yourself openly, honestly. You should be able to tell people about it, and do it in public. It should be OK to be a CD!

I assert that the fact that so many here feel they can't be open about this is just wrong. Not that y'all are wrong - there are good, practical reasons you feel the way you feel. Believe me, I know, I know pretty well what many here would experience because I've had to go through it myself. It's wrong I was treated the way I was treated. It's wrong that many of y'all feel you have to hide to avoid the same treatment I got!

So I suggest that, hard as this is, y'all would be better off, in the long run, to stand up and fight this battle. It's not fair to ask this of you - like I said - you didn't ask for this. But if you want a world where you are free to express yourself and to present as you want, you are going to have to come out and take it.

Living half a life, feeling the need to hide all the time, that is no kind of a life. A life where you are free from fear, where you can just be yourself, whatever that means to you - that is what is leaving you behind.

And the longer you wait, the further behind you'll be left.

[Rhonda Jean]

I don't disagree with anything you said. Thanks for saying that. Let me offer something from the CD side.

I think there's a tipping point that I've yet to reach (and hopefully won't). Although it's impossible to ignore the difficulties, let's ignore the difficulties for now. Crossdressing adds something to my life. I have been compelled/felt a need to do it in varying degrees since I was a preschooler. I've had very few times in my life when I couldn't express it to some degree, but when those occasions arose, or if they were less frequent or somehow less of what I needed/desired it effected me from a well-being standpoint. Ahh, so it effected my well being! Poor me! I know that's so insignificant compared to you, and I know and accept that. Glad of it, in fact. I know enough of your situation to know that I don't want any part of it, and I know you wouldn't wish it on anybody.

Consider, too, that when I've indulged whether it was for an hour, a day, or a week, my satisfaction level with that experience wavered. Plenty of times I was an emotional wreck when it came time to go back. Plenty of times I thought "this is the way I'm supposed to live my life". Other times I was going through the well-known motions with little effect. There are even plenty of times when, by the time it's time to "go back" I'm ready. I'm tired of it. I don't know why I went to the trouble. In fact, the older I get the less I get out of it. I look in the mirror and see a woman struggling to stay young... and losing. That takes a lot of the fun out of it. It's a new thing that in recent years (especially since I cut my hair) I experience true dissatisfaction with it all. That used to never happen. Maybe I've peaked out. I was so close to joining you on the "other side" 6 years ago. What if I had?

Look. From a cd standpoint (at least mine) we look up to our TS sisters. We know that what you've done comes with enormous difficulty and requires unfathomable courage. When we say we wouldn't sacrifice our families, that means WE at our level of gender dysphoria wouldn't, and don't understand those who do. Surely that's not wrong. Otherwise we'd just all dishonestly claim an equally high level of gender dysphoria just so we'd fit in with the big girls.

I understand the hierarchy. Most of us probably recognize some. I know I do. We just rarely verbalize it. We probably all feel like we're a little better, a little prettier, a little more feminine than some of the other. Their particular brand of transgender expression is different from mine, therefore wrong. It's just more common and more acceptable for the TS community to reject the CD community out of hand. Then we get our panties in a wad. We tend to get a little defensive when a TS looks down her nose at us because to her we're just playing dress up.

I'm quite familiar with the fluctuating nature of gender dysphoria. Can I swear I won't be where you are in several years? Of course not. But, I can't see it coming. I'll admit that among the people who know only my girl side probably 34 of them think I'm transitioning. Yes, I lied. It was the pragmatic thing to do. I'm better accepted if I'm transitioning than if I was just dressing just for the fun of it. I'm not sure why people are that way about it, but they are. In those situations claiming to be TS was easier than admitting to being a CD. Doesn't mean it's easier to be TS, but there are situations where it is.

Paula, we've gone back and forth on a lot of very personal things for many years. We've been forthright about our opinions whether we agreed or disagreed. I've always left those discussions with respect for you. That's still intact from my side, and I hope it is with you.

Rhonda

[PaulaQ]

Paula, we've gone back and forth on a lot of very personal things for many years. We've been forthright about our opinions whether we agreed or disagreed. I've always left those discussions with respect for you. That's still intact from my side, and I hope it is with you.

I feel the same about you Rhonda. I like and respect you, and would be honored to meet you someday. I can be friends with someone and not agree with them 100%. That's OK - sometimes that means I need to learn something.

Back to the topic. Here are some groups that are often not out:
- cross dressers
- polyamorous people
- BDSM / kinky people
- bisexuals
- asexuals

Here are some groups that are often out:
- Gays
- Lesbians
- Drag queens
- trans people / transsexuals
- gender queer

Doesn't it seem weird for crossdressing to be in there with BDSM & poly, in terms of hiding it?

[Eryn]

I don't know about your grouping. CDers often do go out. Many don't dress unless they are going out!

[ReineD]

Yes, my SO and I go out too and lots of people see us. :)

[Teresa]

Paula,
We have exchanged many words in PMs and I'm grateful to call you a friend. We both have one thing in common that through CDing we nearly ended our lives, you have had a far tougher time than me, I know how sincere you are about helping others so they don't travel down the same road as you with the same level of suffering.
I find it frustrating that some members comment from a far too flippant point of view because CDing is a hobby to them, if it were just the clothes I wouldn't be doing it and put myself and my family through it . The levels beyond CDing finally ending in SRS are far more complex, we may get there by different routes or just stop short as I have but it's some rollercoaster ride and we need all the help we can get and thankfully we have the forum.
I try very hard to read between the lines on members threads, it's often what they leave out that's important and I try to get them to open up rather than give them a roasting and shoot them down in flames, it doesn't help anyone, we come here sometimes in desperation , we all need help at some point. Thanks for giving yours so freely !

[ReineD]

I find it frustrating that some members comment from a far too flippant point of view because CDing is a hobby to them, if it were just the clothes I wouldn't be doing it and put myself and my family through it .

What flippancy? There were one or two heartfelt attempts at lightening up the mood because people were beginning to insult each other, but I do not see the majority of CDers taking TSs lightly in this thread.

Besides, the thread topic isn’t about transition. As clearly stated, the OP was concerned about how different factions of society perceive CDers and TSs and if as the result, CDers and TSs are being left behind. The OP then made some suggestions about topics (listed in the order mentioned in the OP):


The current support of TS children by their parents.
Whether gender is a social construct.
How trans-activists offend feminists by upholding stereotypical femininity.
The definition of the term "TG".
Removing the "T" from "LBGT".
Women who do not acknowledge that TSs are women.
TERFs and the death threats directed towards them.
The acceptance of men who wear dresses vs. men who want to be regarded as women.
TSs imprisoned according to birth sex.
The women’s toilet issue.
People who advocate for the realignment of genitals according to their wishes.
Not assigning any babies a gender until they can choose for themselves.
Are lesbians transphobic if they are not attracted to TSs.
Are CDers, specifically, being left behind.
Are parents too quick to support TS kids.
Having adults prematurely assign a gender to babies.


I think the OP should start one thread per topic and enjoy the conversation that ensues. There is too much material here to discuss all in one thread.

But, this thread has since narrowed considerably into just the topic of trying to get people who do not want to dress full time, to tell everyone in their lives that they dress occasionally (that, BTW was not covered in the OP), without regard to a member's personal circumstances (where they live, where they work, how open-minded are their communities and their families). This too, deserves its own thread, although I think this attitude disrespects the people who have made a conscious decision they want to keep part or all of their male lives intact because this is what works for them. This forum is filled with adults. Those who do eventually decide they want to tell others, I’m sure do. :)

[PaulaQ]

But, this thread has since narrowed considerably into just the topic of trying to get people who do not want to dress full time, to tell everyone in their lives that they dress occasionally, without regard to a member's personal circumstances (where they live, where they work, how open-minded are their communities and their families).

That's really an overstatement of what I was saying.

My only point was millions of gay, lesbian, bisexual and trans people are out. Most CDs aren't. Being in the closet really is the past. Not everyone needs to be out - indeed not all LGB people are. It's north of 70% for L's & G's, and like 20% for B's. (Only 11% for male bisexuals)

We get threads here all the time on topics like:
- Why can women wear masculine clothes, but not vice versa?
- Why don't any GG's date us?
- How do I come out to my wife?
- Why do I have to lose my "man card" if I come out?

Visibility for CDs as a whole would solve these and other problems.
Want acceptance for feminine straight dudes? Fight for it - women did.

Want a woman to date? I bet there are plenty of women who'd date a CD if only both the woman and CD felt free to tell one another what they want.

Want to avoid coming out to your spouse? Be out when you start dating her.

Want equal rights? Fight for them.

I understand not everyone can or wants to do this. But more of you being out and visible would make a difference.

Or just stay closeted. You'll be left behind - you are your own best advocates. Maybe that's for the best and CDs are a dying breed. I was talking to a trans woman I know who is a former CD, and who was active in lots of CD clubs. She told me many of the ones she was a part of had morphed into trans support groups. Maybe more CDs are transitioning? I dunno.

But you know what? Never mind. Obviously y'all are better off as a group staying highly closeted. You get to keep your male privilege, for only the cost of lying and hiding stuff from spouses, friends and family. If y'all are happy with that, who am I to judge?

Just one thing I don't understand. At CD gatherings I've attended post transition (I never went to one until after transition), why is it all the CDs seem really freaking sad when they leave the event, and many of them are fearful and worried the whole time they are at a venue? I mean, if it's the choice that leads to happiness, why don't more seem happy?

[SabrinaEmily]

Bingo. Bingos all over the board, Paula.

I suspect that a lot, perhaps most, of the younger generation who would, born earlier, have identified as CDers are either transsexual and realizing it and transitioning young, or coming to identify as something non-binary and expressing this in a more integrated, less compartmentalized way than classical CDing.

One problem for CDers in being out is that, rightly or wrongly, CDing reads to a lot of people as "pretending to be someone you're not." For transsexuals, one can say they were pretending before and only now telling the truth. For people who are non-binary, genderqueer, etc., the same, with perhaps less pretense, because there was less discrepancy to hide, leading to less drastic change. Some CDers who aren't transsexual seem to go this way. But the classical CDing presentation ("all man" with the occasional "all woman", for some definitions of "all woman") seems by its nature to fit poorly with being out.

[Veronica27]

At CD gatherings I've attended post transition (I never went to one until after transition), why is it all the CDs seem really freaking sad when they leave the event

Two simple reasons. When you are enjoying yourself, such as on a vacation, there is usually a sadness about it coming to an end. Secondly, the focus of such events has increasingly become about transitioning, which to a CD is of no interest. For that reason, my enjoyment of these events became less and less which was sad.


many of them are fearful and worried the whole time they are at a venue? I mean, if it's the choice that leads to happiness, why don't more seem happy?

They are closeted. That in itself lends a degree of concern about being discovered. One of the primary purposes of these events used to be to provide a safe place, a sort of sanctuary, where crossdressers could go to more fully enjoy their pastime and socialize with other like-minded people. The camaraderie and discussions used to help one to put aside those concerns for a while, in relative safety. Today, their concerns are ignored and it is all about being out and about and open to everyone. Crossdressers come away feeling more intimidated than helped. Their situation is unintentionally belittled.


Or just stay closeted. You'll be left behind - you are your own best advocates. Maybe that's for the best and CDs are a dying breed. I was talking to a trans woman I know who is a former CD, and who was active in lots of CD clubs. She told me many of the ones she was a part of had morphed into trans support groups. Maybe more CDs are transitioning? I dunno.

This denigrates CD's. Your friend stated the point I made above and in several other threads. CD support groups and events have increasingly become TG/TS leaving CD's without any voice or support. I don't believe more CD's are transitioning, but I do believe they have been subjected to the repetitive theme that their crossdressing is because of gender identity issues and they begin to believe it, whether or not it is true.


But you know what? Never mind. Obviously y'all are better off as a group staying highly closeted. You get to keep your male privilege, for only the cost of lying and hiding stuff from spouses, friends and family. If y'all are happy with that, who am I to judge?

But you are judging. I have tried to stay out of this conversation, but your comment about male privilege really annoyed me. This terminology has come to be accepted as a universal truth in recent decades, but it is a gross insult to the men I knew growing up in the 40's and 50's. They were hard working men who took their responsibilities seriously. There was nothing privileged about being the sole earner of the family, working 6 days a week, and striving to give an education to your children. They grew up not knowing if and when they might be drafted into the military. There were no governmental handouts in bad economic times, but they took their responsibilities seriously. There were few broken homes. Any differences between the lives of women and men, were rooted in our biological differences, and neither sex had any privilege over the other. When I observe the lives of younger people today, I often wonder whether all the social changes have done them any good.

Veronica

- - - Updated - - -


One problem for CDers in being out is that, rightly or wrongly, CDing reads to a lot of people as "pretending to be someone you're not."

There is nothing wrong with playing "let's pretend". We did it all the time as kids, and it is still enjoyed by historical re-enactors and comic fans. The theatre is basically a huge game of lets pretend. About twenty years ago, crossdressing was starting to become more socially acceptable, as support groups were opening up, and specialty shops geared to crossdressers were appearing in larger cities. But then the transgender activists began imparting the serious gender problems experienced by a few onto the much larger community, which tended to remove the fun and enjoyment from the crossdressing experience. Suddenly, if you crossdressed for pleasure, you were made to feel you were making light of the gender issues suffered by others, and so you retreated to your closet or you considered yourself to be gender conflicted.

[ReineD]

I just don’t understand why some members are so insistent on homogenizing the members of this forum, as if everyone wants to live the same way. There is only one thing that is true here, and this is:


Everyone is different, with different desires and different goals.


The idea that most CDers don’t enjoy being men is false.
The idea that most CDers want to be women in bed with their wives is false.
The idea that most CDers are genderqueer or genderfluid is false.
The idea that most CDers think about CDing all the time is false.
The idea that most CDers deplore not being able to go to work while dressed is false.
The idea that most CDers deplore not being able to go to family picnics or their neighborhood block parties while dressed is false.
The idea that if all CDers: one or three men out of one hundred people walk around wearing a dress or presenting as a female, this will make everyone embrace the CDing is false.

CDers who want to do any of the above are perfectly free to do so, and some do, depending on whether their life circumstances are amenable to a larger degree of outedness and the degree to which they identify as "not-male". But the decision to be out to any degree will hinge upon many factors: how much CDers feel compelled to dress, where they live and work, the open-mindedness of their families, bosses, coworkers and community members, how willing they are to live as outliers in the margins of society if they live in communities that tend to ignore the CDing rather than embrace it … all these things that are not even being considered by the "You go girl, you come out to everyone" cheerleaders. :p

So to highjack a thread where the OP was not even about whether crossdressers in general should come out to everyone and live publicly as birth-males who dress or present as women, and insist that full public and private disclosure and follow-through is the only thing that will help improve the quality of life for most CDers, is wishful thinking. In fact, it is more than wishful thinking, it demonstrates a dire lack of understanding of most members in this forum and also a disillusioned view of a crossdresser’s chances for marital bliss or finding new partners if single, job advancement, doing things with all their friends while dressed or making new friends outside of the LGBTQ community, civic involvement in any form … for people whose largest number of social contacts are outside of the LGBTQ community.

If someone works at home (or goes to work as a male), has a fully supportive wife and family, and limits their social contacts primarily to the LGBTQ community, then this is a different matter. Of course they can come out there. :)

That said, I support transsexuals who have chosen to absorb significant losses in order to transition to live as women, whether it is stealth or not-stealth (being known as someone who used to be male). But is this everyone’s goal? No.

[PaulaQ]

Why should lesbian, gay or bisexual people have come out as a group? I mean look - most of us don't have sex in public, so why isn't that just like CDing, mostly done in the privacy of your own home? I mean, there were all these married people who weren't straight, but were in straight relationships - coming out screwed up some of their lives. They risked employment over this too. They risked loss of standing in their community. Some of them lost their lives over who they were.

Wouldn't they have been FAR better off if they'd stayed in the closet? I mean do people REALLY need to know your sexual orientation? (Unless you are straight - everyone wants to know about your wife, kids, etc.)

After all, what could 3 or 4 out of a hundred people who loved someone of the same gender do to change people's opinions about homosexuality. Seems like a hopeless task to me! I mean, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY people are going to accept gay people as friends, not ostracize them from families. They'll NEVER be a TV show showing them in a positive light. I mean, it's not like they're ever going to be allowed to be married, or anything...

So yeah, I guess y'all are right. The plight of CDs is hopeless. You are better off, as a group, staying closeted. There's just no chance for improving your lot in life, of society accepting, even a little bit, who you are. I mean, look at the gays...

I'm not denigrating any of you for not coming out. Your lives are obviously yours to live, your decisions about them yours alone to make. My only point is that if you are unhappy with the limitations on your lives as CDs, YOU are the only ones who can change them. No, it will not be easy. Yes, you'll likely face consequences initially. But I guess I have to say that the fundamental reason people don't come out is this - fear. Often times the fears you have are justified. However, I think it's not much of a life to live driven by fear. It's your choice to make - but I'm simply suggesting that you look at what others have done, what they've gained, and think about it.

And this is highly relevant to the thread - staying in the closest is causing CDs to be left behind.


But you are judging. I have tried to stay out of this conversation, but your comment about male privilege really annoyed me. This terminology has come to be accepted as a universal truth in recent decades, but it is a gross insult to the men I knew growing up in the 40's and 50's. They were hard working men who took their responsibilities seriously. There was nothing privileged about being the sole earner of the family, working 6 days a week, and striving to give an education to your children.

You mean, like the guys who denied promotions to my mother, a single mom, giving them instead to a much less qualified man, because (they really told her this) "He really needs the raise - he has a family to support after all." As if my mother didn't. The idea that the man was the sole earner for the family is an example male privilege.

I'm not judging anyone.

[faltenrock]

this threat is a little exhausting to read, but probably important. As a CD, I'm not about to change the world to accept me as a woman, I'm a man and that's good. I do my best presenting as female when I'm out and about, this is only for me. At he same time, I think I actually do something positive, because people see me and therefore think about the theme/concept of crossdressing - eventually. If that helps acceptance in general, that's perfect.

[Sky]

this threat is a little exhausting to read...

A little? :tongueout

[Veronica27]

You mean, like the guys who denied promotions to my mother, a single mom, giving them instead to a much less qualified man, because (they really told her this) "He really needs the raise - he has a family to support after all." As if my mother didn't. The idea that the man was the sole earner for the family is an example male privilege. I'm not judging anyone.

I know nothing of your personal background or your mother's circumstances, but it has no bearing on my contention that male privilege is a myth. Men can also be single parents. I lost my first wife to cancer, leaving me as a single father with two kids, the youngest still in diapers. Nobody gave me any special considerations, and I had to knuckle down and make the best of the situation for the sake of my kids. That background had nothing to do with my comment. In my childhood, it was considered sinful to have children out of wedlock, marriage was until death, fathers were expected to provide for their family, while women were expected to raise the children and maintain the home. Responsibilities were considered more important than rights. Neither sex had any privilege over the other. Times have changed, but it is debatable whether it is for the better. Society has been turned upside down to the point that one income cannot support most families. My personal observation is that all the technology and stress today has not made anyone happier than they were when I was young. However, this is way off topic so enough.

Veronica

[AlleyKat]

Male privilege (among other privileges) do happen from time to time, on the flip side, when you are at the bottom, it's actually much harder to get help if you are "privileged"

It does seem like this has become a debate over wether or not cd's should feel morally obligated to come out.

Isn't the whole struggle of the lbg and cdtg spectrums that people should be free to do what they want? If you want to come out for your sake, great! You don't? That's great too. You do you, and I'll do me and let's support each other regardless of the decision.
If the support is there we wil see more people comfortable with coming out, and they will be a better representation of the group as well. If you pressure people out, there will be much more stress involved, and the side that others see of us will be auch less happy presentation, which really hurts the its natural, and it makes me happy statement we want to make.

[Mayo]

There are many different sorts of privilege, which many members of this forum (myself included) most likely partake of. Just because one has one or more (white, male, christian, etc) doesn't necessarily mean one has the others (education, class, financial, etc.). But the more you have, the better off you probably are.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gina-crosleycorcoran/explaining-white-privilege-to-a-broke-white-person_b_5269255.html

As I see it, CDs will be 'left behind' to the extent that they don't step up and claim their rights as people, in the same way that gays & lesbians did starting in the 70s, and that trans people have been doing in the last 5-10 years or so. Standing up makes you a target, but someone has to shoulder that burden in order to advance the cause. That's where the discussion changes to one about activism - it's always possible to stay stealth, let others take on that responsibility, and benefit from it when it comes through, but the fewer who stand up, the longer it will take.

[Zooey]

I know nothing of your personal background or your mother's circumstances, but it has no bearing on my contention that male privilege is a myth.

...said a bunch of men, while giving each other consoling pats on the back. Not picking on your post, but there's a theme. Just because your life isn't easy, doesn't mean a whole class of other folks' lives hasn't been rendered institutionally worse.


It does seem like this has become a debate over wether or not cd's should feel morally obligated to come out.

Isn't the whole struggle of the lbg and cdtg spectrums that people should be free to do what they want? If you want to come out for your sake, great! You don't? That's great too. You do you, and I'll do me and let's support each other regardless of the decision.
If the support is there we wil see more people comfortable with coming out, and they will be a better representation of the group as well. If you pressure people out, there will be much more stress involved, and the side that others see of us will be auch less happy presentation, which really hurts the its natural, and it makes me happy statement we want to make.

What Paula's talking about has NOTHING To do with a moral obligation, or morals at all. i've bolded part of your post. How do you think that the LGB (and now T) community built up the support they have now? It wasn't by pretending not to exist. It was by being out and visible, even when it was really hard, and saying "Hey! We're fine, actually, and pretty cool to boot, so let's hang out sometime". Neither support nor understanding can build when you spend your lives trying to be invisible.

All Paula is saying is that you can't expect other people to fight your battles for you and make it easy. TS people are not being left behind - we're being talked about more than ever. It sucks in some ways, but it's part of the process for getting to a better place. Make no mistake though, when push comes to shove and it's time to negotiate, I'm not fighting for CD rights and support - it's not my problem. I'm somewhere between happy and thrilled if we can get them as a package deal, but I'm fighting for e.g. ALL women to have consistent access to women's facilities while they still exist; not for men who like to dress up to be in the ladies room.

If you want support, rights, or any of a host of other things, you're going to have to be the ones that fight for them. Fighting that battle is going to require being out, and in numbers. Or, as the thread title suggests, you will likely be left behind.

[Adriana Moretti]

I'm going to stick with the O.G post and say YES !!!....and NO ....LOL All the original points made in the OG post have absolutely nothing to do with crossdressers, and everything to do with being Transgender....this is after all crossdressers.com. Thats why threads like...

Trying on clothes at a store for the first time
* First Time shopping tips
* A documented experience on shopping
* A purchased pair of shoes
* Going out in a car
* Trying on shoes in a store
* Having a pedicure
* Reactions from SA's
* Playing a video game using a female character
are popular here.....
BTW....you forgot the pantie threads...LOL....all too I agree can be boring as sin, but are major milestones for some ( lets not forget we all be there at one time too )

and your later points are not covered here becausemost of the gals here are just cd's...part timers at that, . There is a big deifference between crossdressers & TG's...
most of my friends today are TG's...and yet...I am a crossdresser...so I see the things that concern them, all those issues you mentioned are discussed and shared regularly on social media..... and yet those issues have nothing to do with me as a crossdresser ( except the bathroom issue) ....there is a big difference if I go out with my trans friends to a vanilla resturant in the real world, and if i go to a cd party....2 totally different worlds with totally different set of issues, attitude, and acceptance.

Neither world is better than the other...they are just different.

[ReineD]

this threat is a little exhausting to read,
A little? :tongueout

It's OK. :) There has always been a faction here who take any topic and turn it into a stab at convincing crossdressers they should be as public about the CDing as transitioning TSs (who obviously cannot keep it private). The more the merrier? :p And we will continue to have such threads, among the hundreds of other threads.

[NicoleScott]

Left behind unless CDers step up and claim their rights as people? Well, that puts me in a dilemma, because according to some, as a male I already have too many.
Many of us identify as males and like it, crossdressing a few hours a day, week, or month. For us, it IS about the clothes, and we are happy to wear them for our comfort or pleasure privately. Yet we are often characterized as cowards filled with shame, hiding in our closets. I'm sure some wish for greater acceptance so they can get out and be out, and they can take action to help make that happen. The rest of us are happy doing our thing privately and have no need to come out, less concerned with being left behind than left alone. So there is no need for those who choose activism to dislocate your arm patting yourselves on the back for all that you fantasize you do for me. What you do is for yourselves.

[ReluctantDebutant]

Well something about this exhausting Thread woke me out of my slumber. :)

In regards to the theme of this site:

I love the more deeper philosophical topics. The ones that really explore the hard questions about what it means to be CD,TG,TS etc... But I get very much why those serious topics aren't for everyone. Cross-dressing is about escapism and fun. It is hard to find people in your life who also find it fun or even interesting even if they provide 100% support. I equate it to why I go to Star Trek messages boards to talk Trek with like minded folks and not my immediate circle of friends who just aren't that interested in the subject. People here tend to choose the deeper topics at their leisure which is just fine. As the great philosopher Cyndi Lauper once observed "Girls just want to have fun.":)

To the idea that CDs are being left behind and need activism:

As many have already pointed out CDers are not a monolith. The reasons for why we dress, how we dress, when we dress, where we dress, what we dress, and who we like to see us dress can vary in a millions ways. But we all still dress, we can unite on that right? Well what rights do CDers need? The right to purchase female clothing? The right to go out dressed in female clothing? We have those rights this message board is proof of men purchasing women's clothing and wearing it without interference from the law. CDers talk about the issues that face them on this board every day. They mostly deal with problem with the spouse or bad reactions from a few people in public. But these discriminations are personal and private ones not public and do not require public government intervention. What would we have a federal injunction against a wife's DADT policy delivered by a U.S. attorney? Should we have police fine or arrest people who points and laughs at a CDer in public? I wouldn't want to live in that society. The fundamental right that allows us to express ourselves through cross-dressing is the same right that allows people to feely have a contrary opinion to our cross-dressing.

To the issue of CDers coming out:

I used to dream about going out fully dressed it seemed like the ultimate experience and yes it was my fears that kept me back, but those fears were unfounded. I finally did go out went to a transformation service and everything. I would go out from time to time always waiting till I could afford another makeover. ( I never had the inclination to learn cosmetics) Sometimes I couldn't wait until my makeover bank was full again so I would go out. Yes out without makeup or a wig. Just me from the neck down enfemme 40DD filled bra in my sleeveless blouse that had a bunch of gauzy fill , homemade hip pads that gave me very shapely 50" hips in my jeans, and 6" heels, neck up all me scruffy beard and buzzed cut hair. Well I don't know about you but that has got to be one of the most fearless ways to go out in public cross-dressed. And do you know what? People didn't care I wasn't chased through the streets by an angry mob with torches and pitchforks. Sure there were some odd looks, some eye-rolls but so what the trick is not to take it personally and to own it. Whenever I saw a person looking a me with a huge smile that was stifling a giggle I would smile back knowingly and giggle myself. This would break the tension for both them and myself. I realized that it wasn't about me personally but it was just a natural reaction to the odd situation I was presenting them with, a man wearing women's clothing with a Rubenesque body and a scruffy guy's head. People are allowed to fine that odd without it being personal. Wrapping too much of your own identity into cross-dressing leaves you vulnerable to taking reactions to your cross-dressing personally.

But as I was getting the hang of being out and brave I also wasn't having much fun, certainly not as much fun as my fantasies were advertising. I often found myself all dressed up with nothing to do. I rather do my usual hobbies dressed as a guy for comfort and other simple practical reasons. And if I was going to dress up I wanted whatever activity to involve being dressed. Being dressed at the mall just became mundane and I didn't really feel like I was being me. So I stopped going out not out of fear but because to just be out wasn't why I cross-dress. It was easier and more relaxing just to be out dressed as a man for many reasons but mostly because it is who I am and how I want the world to see me as.

So fear may keep a number of CDers from going out but that is their own personal hurtle that they need to get over. And reading stories here is probably the best way they can get over it. But I would say the larger number of CDers don't go out because simply it just not who they are. They simply enjoy doing it for escapism when and where they like and engage the rest of the world simply as themselves.

[Judith96a]

Are we still on crossdressers.com?
Thanks Reine - you have said what needed to be said in a much more articulate manner than I ever could.
Yes, it's a truism to say that if CDers want their 'rights' then they need to get out of the closet and go get 'em (their rights that is!).
However, to those who suggest that, by not adopting a "damn the torpedoes" approach, we closet-dwellers as somehow "letting the side down" I will simply say this -
We are all different. Each of us has different circumstances. Just like you, I have a cost/benefit analysis to do. Your cost/benefit analysis had led to you taking a certain path which may have resulted in you being more or less visible as 'T'. That's fine.
However, you are not me. Your circumstances are not mine - they never were. You may once have had circumstances that looked a lot like mine but, trust me, they were different. So please, let me come to my own conclusions as to how 'out' I can/want/need to be.
I'm not going to presume to comment on your choices except to say this - I think that I can safely say that the vast majority will have been governed by your perception of what was/is best for you rather than the potential benefit of any cause. Please let me do the same.

[Mayo]

The rest of us are happy doing our thing privately and have no need to come out, less concerned with being left behind than left alone. If you are content to be left alone to do your own thing in private and aren't concerned with how a CD who is out or who has been outed might be treated, then that is entirely your business - and your right. Not everybody here sees a need for activism, or wants to be involved, and that's their prerogative. And nobody is saying that you must be out or, if you are, that you must be an activist - only that, if you want to be out, someone has to engage in activism on your behalf, because public acceptance does not come automatically.

[ReineD]

Yes, it's a truism to say that if CDers want their 'rights' then they need to get out of the closet and go get 'em (their rights that is!).

I agree. People can say it as much as they want to, but it's just not realistic. Even if ALL CDers were to come out immediately, tell their families, bosses, and everyone else they are CDers and follow through by dressing at work and in their neighborhoods, the world would not change. And this is because there simply are not enough CDers to sway the 95%-99% of the population into thinking that doing this is a good thing.

It took 100% of women wearing pants to make it normal. If only 1%-3% had gone for it, it would still be considered outré and these women would still be thought of as "different" along with all the negative consequences of being thought of that way.

[emma5410]

Maybe I am misunderstanding but I thought to say something is a truism means it is self evident. That surely means it is realistic. If all CDers came out then it would surely have an effect. It does not even need that. Prejudice works best when a minority can be dehumanised. When the minority has a face, be it Caitlyn Jenner or your best friend, then it is harder to discriminate.
If you are right, Reine, then there is no hope for CDers and it is probably best if they stop wanting acceptance and just accept that they are lost.

Did it really take 100% of women to start wearing pants to make it normal. I doubt 100% of women wear pants now. More likely it became acceptable long before the majority joined in.

Making something acceptable requires action and courage. Visibility is the key.

Personally I do not care if CDers come out or not. That is their problem. I am fed up of TS being told that they are letting the "transgender community" down by people who are happy to stay hidden. I know how tough it is to come out to everyone and live your life as a woman. I have done it.

By the way I think Paula Q has really nailed it on this thread.

[PaulaQ]

What would we have a federal injunction against a wife's DADT policy delivered by a U.S. attorney? Should we have police fine or arrest people who points and laughs at a CDer in public? I wouldn't want to live in that society. The fundamental right that allows us to express ourselves through cross-dressing is the same right that allows people to feely have a contrary opinion to our cross-dressing.

Of course not.

I understand this is hard to imagine, but imagine a world where you could tell women this stuff, and have a decent chance of it being acceptable because women who do like this, few though they may be, would feel free to talk about it themselves, and actively seek such partners. That's what wider acceptance could get you.

I'm sorry so many of you don't see the benefits of being out has had for the broader LGBT community. I think it's kind of sad that some of you who do know those benefits deny them for whatever reasons you have. But look, it's your lives. If you think staying hidden, conforming to a world with standards that don't really seem to fit people like you, is the way of the future, then I guess you aren't being left behind. If you think gays and lesbians were MUCH better off in the closet, if you think anti-crossdressing laws were THE BOMB, then maybe all this coming out stuff is really a terrible idea. Maybe you have fun hiding? That wasn't my experience, but hey, that's just me.

As for any agenda I might have, or feeling that CDs need to be out for the same reasons as transsexuals, that's just silly. Honestly, the case for people like me who do identify solidly as women (or men, for the trans guys) is easier if we ignore crossdressers. Talking about y'all really muddies the water. Doesn't help that there's a certain amount of prejudice against you in some segments of the trans community. The sex stuff that goes on with CDers is viewed as making you not legitimate in the eyes of some trans people I've spoken with. (You have no idea how frustrating it is to talk with a couple of transitioning former drag queens and listen to them badmouth CDs. Talk about hypocrisy.) There are plenty of us who'd throw y'all under the bus to help our own cause. All I can tell you is that as someone who's lived through being thrown under the bus, I suspect that should that happen, you might not like it very much. And history and human nature being what they are, that's probably what will happen, unless some of you stand up for yourselves. Believe me, given some of the past history some CD groups treated those of us who transition, there are some who'd argue y'all have it coming, and deserve nothing.

Oh - and for those of you who think I do this for some type of self-aggrandizement? The only way you'll get rid of someone like me who you perceive to be a self-serving fool who talks about your issues to serve their own purposes is to stand up and speak for yourselves. Otherwise, you're left with people like me doing it for you, for whatever reasons we might choose to do it. You're WELCOME! :D

If you are interested in why I care about CDs at all, the actual reason is very simple. A number of folks who identify as CDs now are, in fact, trans women. That certainly was my experience. Some number of them die rather than come out and be their true selves. The culture of secrecy some of y'all seem to be promoting kills people. It also makes certain aspects of your lives less pleasant, in my opinion. The inability to tell who's a CD and who's a transsexual, until that person transitions, means that some people like me are ensconced amongst your highly closeted ranks. The ones who can't get past the shame to come out and transition often have really terrible endings. And that I cannot abide. I will also add that I've talked to a great many of you. Very few of you seem terribly happy, and quite a number seem pretty miserable. I hate that, and it makes me hope for changes that would better your lives. Really I hope and pray for changes that will better ALL of our lives.

[Lorileah]

I have read this thread 4 times (not that I wanted to because it is like Deja Vu all over again for a lot of us) and the answer is Come out or don't. Stay in the closet or don't. You don't see the advances of even the last 5 years. 20 years ago, I was in the closet to all except my wife. Then I went out...I knew that everyone I saw would point and jeer and the police would come and arrest me and that I would be locked up and be put on drugs and shocked and...no one noticed. :eek: Why? Because the CDs and TSs before me had laid ground work. I benefited from people, like the Ts at Stonewall, who did stand up. From Rene Richards. From the gays and lesbians who grew tired of sneaking and hiding and pretending. I did. My first "outing" one person talked to me that I didn't know...they asked directions. But my fears were overblown. I have been a puppet a pirate and a poet (I have been a closet CD and Out Cd and levels of TS). I can be me now. 30 years ago, I couldn't or it would have been dangerous for me. Now I still watch but I am less worried. Why? Because people went before me.

No, we don't need ever CD to come out. In fact we don't need ANY CDs to come out. The TSs community doesn't have that choice, and by default, the whole community gains. But that's OK. Not every person in 1775 America fought the war. It worked out. Not every woman fought of equal pay and equal rights, it worked out. Not every gay wanted marriage or adoption, it worked out. As someone once said, someone has to stand on the curb and cheer the parade as it passes.

So come out if you want to. Or don't. But please don't throw roadblocks in my path either. I'll try and not make your road as rough. Fair nuff?

[ReineD]

You bring up good points, Emma!


Prejudice works best when a minority can be dehumanised.

This is true, and in recent years transition has indeed been un-dehumanized (is this a word? :p). It has not been illegal or considered pathological in decades. The NYT had a front page article last Sunday, stating that about 30% of Fortune 500 companies now offer transgender-inclusive health care benefits, up from 0 in 2002. There is wide support in the media for the rights of TSs to transition and be happy. But still, a departure from dehumanization does not necessarily lead to full support and embrace. How does this translate to individuals who come across TSs in their day-to-day lives; would a small company in the South or in more rural areas of blue states still want to hire a TS? What about classrooms all over the country, would they hire a TS? Will a GG or GM still want to marry her? Have a look in the TS section to see how difficult it still is, despite the changes in anti-discrimination laws. Have a look at comments below online articles about public transitioners. People may be brought to tolerate and be civil in a world that is becoming more crowded and diverse and basic rights may be guaranteed (health care, shelter, etc), but will people stop thinking of TSs as being "different" and include her in all aspects of their lives as they do people who have no gender issues? If it's happening, it is happening very slowly.

Granted, I'm speaking from the POV of someone in her 50s who is exposed to more ignorance than you care to shake a stick at. Maybe the Millenials are even more advanced than most of the people in my generation. Would a 23 year-old GG be more willing to marry a young TS today? Would she want her TS fiancée to maintain male sexual functioning if she wants kids or would she be happy to adopt. And if she wants her own kids, what would that do to the young TS's sense of identity if she felt a deep sense of angst over having male genitalia and using it like a man.

And the above speaks only of MtFs who change to live publicly and legally as women 100% of the time, which at least conforms to the notion of binary-gender that most people are familiar with and live by! Society still looks askance at people who want to switch back and forth. They don't understand why someone would only want to dress part-time, which brings us to your next comment:



If you are right, Reine, then there is no hope for CDers and it is probably best if they stop wanting acceptance and just accept that they are lost.

They are not lost. Most CDers already know this, if they are happy with a supportive spouse and not coming out at work and in their neighborhoods ... (instead, they go out dressed to the next town over). My SO is happy. Most don't even dress full-time at home, even if they can! They don't expect to be embraced as a female to everyone, because they're not female and they don't want to be female. They want safety and a lack of verbal abuse when out among strangers, which already exists for the most part. But, should they want to come out as CDers to everyone in their lives, what does this mean, really - that they'd want to reject their maleness, go to work dressed and dress full time in their home towns? Then they'd no longer be CDers, would they.

Even the very progressive Canadian Armed Forces has a rule: either you switch to full-time or you don't dress at all.




Did it really take 100% of women to start wearing pants to make it normal. I doubt 100% of women wear pants now. More likely it became acceptable long before the majority joined in.

Well, in the places I live in and visit (in Canada and the US), almost 100% of women wear pants a great majority of the time except when they want to dress up, which is only occasionally. As to the history, women adopted pants so quickly that admittedly it's hard to tell if it took 100% for the pant-wearing to become universally acceptable. It did seem to have mushroomed everywhere during WWII, first at work in manufacturing plants and in casual social situations (while still wearing dresses for office work and church) and then it slowly morphed to wearing pants all the time within several decades. This is because an overwhelming majority of women wanted to wear pants, as opposed to a small percentage of birth-males who want to wear dresses. Still, had only 1%-3% of women worn the pants while others refused to wear them because they were ideologically opposed to the practice (if they saw pants as being men's wear and an indication they were no longer feminine), then the women who wore the pants would have been considered "different" and would have suffered social consequences as the result.

Have a look at someone's Word Press article of the switch from skirts to pants:
https://weeklysilence.wordpress.com/2011/12/09/research-paper-pants-phenomenon-the-switch-from-skirts-to-trousers/


====================

Oops, Lori I was working on this post when you posted yours. I don't know if you meant the conversation should end.

[ReluctantDebutant]

I understand this is hard to imagine, but imagine a world where you could tell women this stuff, and have a decent chance of it being acceptable because women who do like this, few though they may be, would feel free to talk about it themselves, and actively seek such partners. That's what wider acceptance could get you.

This world isn't hard to imagine, Paula, because we already live in it. For a while now there have been dating sites specifically geared toward cross-dressers and the women who love them. Even many mainstream dating sites have this option in the choices it allows. The problem with this is that you usually find that the only thing in common is cross-dressing which isn't a good start for a lasting relationship. I can't speak for others but I would personally like to have a connection based on more fundamental values.


I'm sorry so many of you don't see the benefits of being out has had for the broader LGBT community. I think it's kind of sad that some of you who do know those benefits deny them for whatever reasons you have. But look, it's your lives. If you think staying hidden, conforming to a world with standards that don't really seem to fit people like you, is the way of the future, then I guess you aren't being left behind. If you think gays and lesbians were MUCH better off in the closet, if you think anti-crossdressing laws were THE BOMB, then maybe all this coming out stuff is really a terrible idea. Maybe you have fun hiding? That wasn't my experience, but hey, that's just me.

This is such a false dichotomy I do not know where to begin. The fact that many cross-dressers feel comfortable not being out means they prefer gays and lesbians in the closet and anti-crossdressing laws? Or perhaps these cross-dressers are just making personal decisions tailored to their own life and can be quite happy for other cross-dressers who make different decisions? They can simply enjoy a world where the can come out if they choose but just happen not to choose? Maybe many of us do in fact have fun "hiding" as you put it. It doesn't have to be your experience and we all know it's not just you. There are plenty of examples of CDs and TSs who are out and about having a good time. They will be followed by those still "hiding" who care to.


Oh - and for those of you who think I do this for some type of self-aggrandizement? The only way you'll get rid of someone like me who you perceive to be a self-serving fool who talks about your issues to serve their own purposes is to stand up and speak for yourselves. Otherwise, you're left with people like me doing it for you, for whatever reasons we might choose to do it. You're WELCOME! :D

Note: Still not seeing a denial of the self-aggrandizing :)

Could someone please enlighten me as to the oppression that cross-dressers like myself are supposedly under? What about myself am I to speak up about? To whom do I need to be speaking to? And why should they care? Wouldn't cross-dressers issues come up organically in the cross-dresser community? Wouldn't this thread be pointless if there was a real universal feeling among cross-dressers of oppression? We wouldn't need to be told by outside elements that we to rally and start a movement. We would be speaking for ourselves already. We should just be happy we don't live in such a dire situation. Sure we have a few problems but they are mostly small and individual. I don't think the CD community is likely to submit to an injustice being perpetrated on it. I give it more credit then that.


If you are interested in why I care about CDs at all, the actual reason is very simple. A number of folks who identify as CDs now are, in fact, trans women. That certainly was my experience. Some number of them die rather than come out and be their true selves. The culture of secrecy some of y'all seem to be promoting kills people. It also makes certain aspects of your lives less pleasant, in my opinion. The inability to tell who's a CD and who's a transsexual, until that person transitions, means that some people like me are ensconced amongst your highly closeted ranks. The ones who can't get past the shame to come out and transition often have really terrible endings. And that I cannot abide. I will also add that I've talked to a great many of you. Very few of you seem terribly happy, and quite a number seem pretty miserable. I hate that, and it makes me hope for changes that would better your lives. Really I hope and pray for changes that will better ALL of our lives.

I haven't seen anyone promote a culture of secrecy and certainly not one that kills people. No one has advocated that all cross-dressers have to stay in the closet just that cross-dressers who do stay closeted aren't cowards, letting down the community, and I guess now not responsible for the deaths of closeted TS. Sure secrecy can make some of life's aspects less pleasant, most trade offs do. Marriage takes away the pleasantries of bachelorhood but you gain companionship in return. Charity take away extra time and or money away but gives back in other ways. Tradeoffs are just a part of life you have to trust a person to know best what tradeoffs are good for their life. Yeah cross-dressing can make one feel bad especially someone like me who wants to look like a cross between Christina Hendricks and Sofia Vergara but I look like a cross between Rick Moranis and Danny DeVito. To be honest you don't sound happy yourself, Paula, and you transitioned. What can we gather from that? Not much You really can't judge a person by how they write about a single aspect of their lives on such message board as this without knowing more about their lives. Your wife hates your cross-dressing write about it on Crossdressers.com you went out in your new 40' boat and caught a 400lb marlin you go write about it Sportsfisher.com.

We all hope for better lives but it is up to ourselves to make it better.

[heatherdress]

After watching this thread ramble on and on, I do appreciate Reine's (and a few others') multiple attempts to achieve some harmony and mutual understanding. Unfortunately, this thread seems to be derisive and insulting to many. It is hardly heady or intellectual or inspiring.

A few have hijacked this thread and repeatedly put down crossdressers who have no desire to go public. Honestly, if someone wants to wear women's panties or nighties occasionally, is it really expected that they should proclaim their behavior? Is it realistic or even possible for all crossdressers - to "come out" - as if we are some sort of uniform group? We are such a diverse group that members here should understand and respect our diversity and our differences of opinion and not try to belittle the majority of crossdressers who prefer anonymity.

Personally, it is not a "problem" for me - that I want privacy. It is my right. I also do not feel that any one else speaks for me, as they believe they do, especially someone promoting their own beliefs and agendas which some of us might not agree with. I wish them luck and I do support the common goals and freedoms that are identified in these threads - but I will do so in my own way.

[PaulaQ]

I'm sorry that some of you may feel I've insulted you because you have no desire to come out. Please let me be clear - I understand why you don't want to come out. It is a terrifying prospect to most - it certainly was to me. A person takes a great risk coming out. Some of you would, without question, lose a lot. I know this because I lost a lot when I came out, and many people I know have lost more than I did. My story is here on this forum. You can read it - you can see what I lost. No, my story isn't the worst. Yes, what I went through still hurt a lot. Believe me, I know full well what I am suggesting that some of you do. I've done it. Odds are, many of you would lose less than many trans women lose.

I certainly don't think less of any of you for not wanting to come out. I fully understand your reticence - I deal with people pretty much continuously who have little choice but to come out, yet are terrified to do this. Even when they are in situations where it's extremely likely they will be accepted with relatively few issues, many TSs will hesitate to come out. You are not cowards - I've never used that word in this thread. It is a genuinely terrifying prospect, coming out.

Gays and lesbians are, by the way, a diverse group. For that matter, so are bisexuals and transgender people. These groups band together because there are common goals that help all of them. So I think the notion that the myriad scenarios of crossdressing makes any common goals impossible just isn't true.

As for your right to privacy, that is indeed yours. No one is going to out you. (Although some gays did this to one another in the early days. I feel such tactics are highly unethical, and I could never condone such things.)

I completely get that not everyone is in a position to be some sort of activist, really, rather few are. This is true in all other parts of the LGBT community too. Quietly asserting who you are to at least a few people in your lives could make a difference. It certainly has for gay and lesbian people. And that is really all I'm suggesting - because it has unarguably lead to progress for millions of LGBT people. I'm sort of surprised that so many of you don't see any parallels between their situations and your own. Or perhaps I'm not. I think a lot of you believe you are the cis-normative, hetero-normative people you present as in public. Many of you see yourselves as straight, manly men, no different from other men. Unfortunately, that just isn't the case - if it were the case, you wouldn't feel so compelled to keep this private. I don't mean this to be insulting - I really don't. I'm sure that many of you will find that insulting, though. I am genuinely sorry about that. You aren't like other guys for reasons that really do not matter, in my opinion. Unfortunately, in the minds of many others, your differences DO matter. And that's what coming out does for you - it gives you a chance to define who you are, rather than other people doing it for you. I think many of you see yourselves as very different from other LGBT people - this has been a historic thing with CD groups. I don't think it's a particularly healthy perspective. No, you aren't gay, lesbian, bisexual - and no, you aren't getting a sex-change. But you face stigma, same as they have - and that stigma from others is the unifying thing.

I'm sorry if you find it insulting that I suggest that the world IS leaving you behind because most of you won't do this, but I believe I have laid out a fairly good case that it is. I don't mean for that to be insulting, either. I guess nobody said you had to keep up with other LGBT folks.

BTW, I never said y'all are responsible for trans suicides. But I believe that because very few straight people understand that gender variant people are MUCH more common than they realize (hence all of you...), many trans people are trapped by the same kinds of shame that many of you routinely report. Only in their case, it's fatal. A greater understanding that transgender people of all sorts exist, including crossdressers, would help this situation.


I wish them luck and I do support the common goals and freedoms that are identified in these threads - but I will do so in my own way.

One has to ask - what would you do to support such common goals and freedoms? I ask because historically, a lot of the freedoms CDs enjoy to dress in public, at least for those who choose to do such things, to be accepted in public accommodations, have been largely won by other transgender people, primarily those of us who transition or who are otherwise out. There are a lot more of you than there are trans women and men. A LOT more. Trans causes are typically badly funded, understaffed, and dwarfed in scale by gay and lesbian organizations. So what do you do to help?

I'll leave you with one last thought:


I am not gay. I do not want a sex-change or anything along those lines. I like being a straight guy. I love being your husband.
I don’t rob banks or kill people, nothing criminal. I think I’m pretty normal, except….

Why do you think Jenniferathome had to include the parts about not being gay, and not wanting a sex change? Why are these such common questions that spouses ask? I'll tell you why - because they have no other frame of reference for a gender variant male other than "gay", "drag queen", or "transsexual". And why don't they, as a rule, these women you marry, just chime in "oh, you're just a crossdresser? Well hell, that's no big deal, my uncle Lou(ise) was one!" I'll tell you why that rarely happens, and it's because very few people know y'all exist, or know much about you because y'all aren't out, and aren't sharing your stories. So the only stories your spouses are hearing are those of gay men, drag queens, and transsexuals.

[Zooey]

So, at the risk of being more than a bit inflammatory...

I think it's REALLY interesting to take the response to TS women - one of whom (PaulaQ) is almost certainly the biggest ally you have amongst us, at least here - coming over here to comment on something we know a lot about, and compare it against the language used by CDs when they come into the TS forum and start commenting. It's fascinating to me when people expect us to lump them in with us on important issues (like restroom access) and will go on for days about how we're actually all the same/it's a spectrum/we're just "further along"/blah blah blah, but will then declare incessantly that they're DEFINITELY NOT THE SAME AS US AT ALL and that we're being unfair/unreasonable/etc. by suggesting that they might actually need to participate publicly if they want in on those conversations.

I know that's not everybody here, or even all of the CDs who come into the TS forum, but it's a thing.

[ReineD]

... coming over here to comment on something we know a lot about,

Well, you all know a great deal about transition. But, how much do you understand about people who don't want to transition.


.
and compare it against the language used by CDs when they come into the TS forum and start commenting. It's fascinating to me when people expect us to lump them in with us on important issues (like restroom access) and will go on for days about how we're actually all the same/it's a spectrum/we're just "further along"/blah blah blah, but will then declare incessantly that they're DEFINITELY NOT THE SAME AS US AT ALL and that we're being unfair/unreasonable/etc. by suggesting that they might actually need to participate publicly if they want in on those conversations.

There are lots of levels to the CDing, and then there are people who think they might be or they want to be TS. I dare say that the people who say they don't want to transition or out themselves to everyone are not the same people who post in the TS section that there is no difference between TSs and CDers?

This place is just sooo varied that it's impossible to make sweeping statements.

Seriously, you should just go back to the threads in the TS section you're thinking about, and see if the CDers who posted there, posted something different in this thread? I could be wrong, but it would be a good exercise.

[Zooey]

Well, you all know a great deal about transition. But, how much do you understand about people who don't want to transition.

I think quite a bit, actually. That said, what I was referring to were the consequences of being out, and what it takes to actually build support and respect in the public world.

[ReineD]

But you have transitioned. Aren't you talking about building support and respect as you integrate fully (not part-time) as a woman socially and professionally?

What a lot of people here are saying is, they don't want to integrate fully as women, because they are not women. They may want to present as women sometimes under some circumstances, and present as men at other times under different circumstances.

Those who do present as women sometimes, like my SO, go out and enjoy themselves. People are already respectful. If they disagree with what my SO is doing, they keep their opinions to themselves. At the same time there is no desire to come out at work, because my SO is not interested in working as a female. Nor is my SO interested in coming out to his family of origin. He is not a woman, he enjoys being a male who explores her femininity occasionally.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

I'm not saying that all CDers are like my SO. There may well be a few who want to present as women 100% of the time. But if they do, then honestly are they CDers or are they TS?

So basically, gender presentation does not always correlate with gender identity, especially with people who post the majority of the time in the CD section ... else they'd be posting in the TS section (provided they felt accepted there).

[AmandaM]

It's easy to get on a soapbox when you have nothing left to lose.

[emma5410]

The original theme of this thread was about CDers being left behind. Gays and lesbians, and now increasingly, TS are becoming accepted. Not everywhere and not by everyone. It is a process. It takes time as it did, and is still doing, for gays and lesbians but it is slowly happening. Even the non binary are making progress. Small and slow though it is.

The CDers still face prejudice and ridicule. That they do is wrong and crazy. How you present and dress should be your business. But as Paula as tried to patiently explain it will never change unless CDers take action.
Do not take action for the sake of the TS. Although greater visibility of CDers would probably help, we are already doing it for ourselves. Take action for the sake of other CDers. Take action to protect yourself if you are ever outed by accident or by a SO. Take action so we can all live in a saner and more accepting world.

That does not mean all of you. Compared to Paula I do very little. But I am living full time and I am very visible. That in itself makes a difference.

I was the first TS patient my GP had ever had. I was the first TS in my company and family. The first TS 99% of the people I came out to had ever met. It was hard (I hope) for them to put me into a little box as a freak, as a potential bathroom rapist, as delusional etc because they already knew me and knew (again I hope) those things were not true. They were forced to deal with me as a friend and as a human being who just happened to be TS. One or two had a problem but the majority were fine and now those seem to have come around as well. I know it is not always that easy but it was easier for me because of those who had gone before and those who are active and visible now. It was easier for me because of the people who had come out quietly before and because of people like Paula who devote so much time and effort to change things now.

I know what it is like to be terrified of coming out. I lived with that fear for decades until the fear of what would happen if I did not transition became greater. Zooey is right. The TS section has a lot of CDers who come on to it complaining about being hidden and not having rights and freedoms. That often spills over into blaming TS for going stealth. The question is where are they in this thread? Why do they never challenge their fellow CDers?


It's easy to get on a soapbox when you have nothing left to lose.

That is very true and a very good point but if more people got on the soapbox now then maybe people like you would not have to worry about losing eveything in the future.

[Zooey]

But you have transitioned. Aren't you talking about building support and respect as you integrate fully (not part-time) as a woman socially and professionally?

What a lot of people here are saying is, they don't want to integrate fully as women, because they are not women. They may want to present as women sometimes under some circumstances, and present as men at other times under different circumstances.

<snip>

So basically, gender presentation does not always correlate with gender identity, especially with people who post the majority of the time in the CD section ... else they'd be posting in the TS section (provided they felt accepted there).

Correct - I'm building support and respect as a full-time woman, which is presumably different from the support and respect that CDs would be interested in building. My point was simply that I know quite a bit about what it's like having to educate people about me, and I know what it's like to have to allow myself to get hurt in the short term in order to work with people in a positive way so that the future is better, both for me and those who might follow in my footsteps in my company/studio.

To Paula's point, I would expect that (based on posts here and people I know) CDs would be working primarily towards increasing social acceptance of variant gender presentation, and I believe the majority of CDs who "go out" (many/most of which are currently still closeted, but taking a risk) would/should take an interest in bathroom access issues. If they want bathroom access though, they're going to have to stand up and be counted. Accurate or not, the image of "straight men in the ladies room" (aka CDs) potentially coming for your wives and daughters is the political right's bogeyman du jour when it comes to legislation that restricts access for transwomen. When PaulaQ talks about throwing CDs under the bus, this is at least part of what she's talking about. I have very mixed feelings about CDs in the ladies room, especially when it comes to fetishistic dressers, but all other things being equal I would ultimately support reasonable access based on presentation (in the absence of available gender neutral facilities) for safety reasons. If push comes to shove though, I would gladly deny CDs access to the ladies room if it meant that all transitioning/transitioned women had reliable access throughout the country.

If nobody here cares then that's fine, but I see enough posts here about related issues that I suspect quite a few people actually do care, whether they're actively testing the limits or not.

[PaulaQ]

To Paula's point, I would expect that (based on posts here and people I know) CDs would be working primarily towards increasing social acceptance of variant gender presentation, and I believe the majority of CDs who "go out" (many/most of which are currently still closeted, but taking a risk) would/should take an interest in bathroom access issues. If they want bathroom access though, they're going to have to stand up and be counted. Accurate or not, the image of "straight men in the ladies room" (aka CDs) potentially coming for your wives and daughters is the political right's bogeyman du jour when it comes to legislation that restricts access for transwomen. When PaulaQ talks about throwing CDs under the bus, this is at least part of what she's talking about.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. There is no way I expect CDs to come out and live full time as women - that's craziness! You need to explain why it's OK for you to sometimes present as women, sometimes as men. The thing is - CDs need to explain themselves in this environment for a couple of reasons:

1. Me, emma, Zooey and the other trans women on this forum are a MUCH easier sell, even to the bigots than y'all are. Think people are going to understand "oh you're just men who like to dress up sometimes?" WRONG. We're an easier sell because we by and large conform to what people expect women to be. Many of us plan to have GRS - so the shopworn argument "U cain't be wimmen - u have a dick!!!!" goes out the window too. I'm not saying we're easy to understand - but we're MUCH easier than someone who switches back and forth. There's also the matter of sexuality while dressed - y'all do it, we don't. It would be easy to demonize you as perverts, weenie waggers, and potential rapists - because hey - most of you still like girls. (Actually a lot of us do too, but most of 'merica doesn't seem to get that.)

2. There are people out there who are waging a (I hope) desperate rear-guard action. They are going after trans people. If they fail to get us for whatever reason, or try to conflate us with you and actually begin to gain ground there (it could happen), some of us are very likely to go all truscum on you, and throw you and anyone else who is non-binary under the bus in exchange for humane treatment for those of us who medically transition. If you don't think some of us would do this, you are naïve - this is EXACTLY what the gays did to us. Heck, some of the lesbians, the TERFS, are still doing this to us! You know what rolls down hill, and sugar, if the folks who hate us gain power, you don't want to be at the bottom of the hill. Given some of the insane things they floated this year, you could be looking at serious jail time for entering a gender segregated space. If we are able to exert ANY influence on the matter, if we find a compromise between criminalizing us, or criminalizing y'all, you'd best believe some of us will push to make YOU the potential criminals.

People need to understand that you are human beings, you are (by and large) feminine men, or men with a feminine side or however you want to describe yourselves. You abide the law, stay with your wives, and sometimes you just want to look pretty. If you want that story to be the one people remember, they need to know you.

Look, I know some of you think I'm picking on CDs, trying to stir up trouble, denigrating you, trying to make you destroy your lives for no reason. Nothing could be further from the truth. I care deeply about your plight. I know many of you experience pain not unlike what I have. Many of you fear discovery - I know what this is like. I sympathize with you - hey - I've been there. So if you think I am your enemy, then you just really have no idea about what is out there, after us. Because the people that hate us DO NOT CARE that you present as a manly man, that you are a good father, a caring husband. They won't look up to you for not transitioning. Believe me, if our story, that of transsexuals, is the only one out there, people will look at you with great suspicion for not transitioning! (There's no guarantee we'll make it either - but if we don't, I can assure you that many of y'all will be just as boned as we are.)

There is terrible stuff coming down the pipe, unfortunately. It's aimed at trans people, and right now, people don't understand how you are different from us. Save yourselves - help us fight these people. This is a common interest we all have.

If you don't believe they can do it, it took five words "no men in women's bathrooms" to defeat an equality ordinance in Houston, the fourth biggest city in the US, and home to an enormous LGBT population, a city with an openly lesbian mayor at the time. They did this with 1/3 of the budget that Big Gay Inc. threw at this problem. And the scary part is, the big conservative religious groups that hate us have much, much bigger war chests than even Big Gay Inc. This stuff is happening. It's happening NOW, and it is a backlash because of marriage equality.

[Zylia]

Insert inane "herp derp I just want to be me" comment here.

Firstly, I fully agree with Paula et alii on why crossdressers need to be more visible. Actually, most good posts in this thread seem to come from people who do not identify as crossdresser (IMHO). Not sure what that means. Please don't throw me under the bus.

The one thing I want to point out is selection bias. The community on crossdressers.com, at least the one in this particular subforum, is not representative of the general transgender/crossdressing population. It's not necessarily to its detriment, but the community here is Americanocentric, generally heteronormative and 'binary-centric'.

Also, fluff topics push out serious topics, members who aren't particularly interested in fluff topics leave the website, relatively even more fluff topics are created, etc. The issues named in this thread are discussed within the community at large, even here on CD.com, but there's just a lot of noise.

[ReineD]

The one thing I want to point out is selection bias. The community on crossdressers.com, at least the one in this particular subforum,

But aren't the remarks addressed to the members who do participate regularly in this particular subforum?



... is not representative of the general transgender/crossdressing population.

How have you measured this.

Statistics are available for people who seek medical help for gender dysphoria, but how can we know how many people have a male gender identity, do not want the crossdressing to impact their male lives, and so they do not seek HRT or other body modifications nor do they seek counseling.



The CDers still face prejudice and ridicule. That they do is wrong and crazy. How you present and dress should be your business. But as Paula as tried to patiently explain it will never change unless CDers take action.

My SO is not TS, therefore my SO is likely read more than a TS who has sought HRT and other physical modifications in order to rid herself of her male gender cues. Yet, when we go out we are not treated any differently than TSs. People do not ridicule us nor do they treat us in a prejudicial manner. If they disapprove, they keep their opinions to themselves although it is likely they just don't care because we have no impact on their personal lives. And judging by all the positive posts from other members here who go out like my SO, this seems to be rather universal.




Do not take action for the sake of the TS. Although greater visibility of CDers would probably help, we are already doing it for ourselves. Take action for the sake of other CDers. Take action to protect yourself if you are ever outed by accident or by a SO. Take action so we can all live in a saner and more accepting world.

If my SO should ever be outed at work or to his family, I don't think he would suffer any more than if he were TS and announce that she was transitioning? Wouldn't the people who choose to reject my SO because they hear (not see) that he crossdresses reject him less than if she was a TS who began presenting as a female all the time?

Look at marriages. Aren't there more marriages who survive with husbands who dress part-time than with husbands who discover are TS and who need to transition? Also look at work. If an employer hears than an employee crossdresses on her time off, wouldn't this have a lesser impact than if this employee were to show up at work presenting as a woman every day.



That does not mean all of you. Compared to Paula I do very little. But I am living full time and I am very visible. That in itself makes a difference.

But again, you are living full time! This is not the same as someone who wants to live as a male and only dress occasionally. Maybe the source of our disagreement is your belief that the only reason CDers crossdress occasionally is because they want to dress full time but are afraid of the negative consequences of doing so?

[Zylia]

But aren't the remarks addressed to the members who do participate regularly in this particular subforum?
No, the topic starter ultimately seems to talk about crossdressers in general, not the particular subset on crossdressers.com, and so are many respondents, but I may be wrong.


How have you measured this.
I don't really have to. Let's look at the inverse statement: "the community on crossdressers.com is representative of the general crossdressing population". It's technically possible, but what would be the odds that a non-random selection of people who are tech-savvy enough to voluntary join this particular English/American website and are hanging around long enough to create all those fluff topics is representative? That seems unlikely, so perhaps I should have said "I seems unlikely that..etc. etc.", but I deemed that rather unnecessary. Anyway, disregard my statement if the burden of proof is on me.

[ReineD]

No, the topic starter ultimately seems to talk about crossdressers in general, not the particular subset on crossdressers.com, and so are many respondents, but I may be wrong.

I was asking more about the members whose posts are in favor of CDers coming out. I take it their remarks are addressed to the community members who habitually post in this particular subsection, although I also may be wrong.



Anyway, disregard my statement if the burden of proof is on me.

No, not at all. I genuinely was interested in knowing a good source of statistics, if there is any way to measure this. I agree there are lots of fluff topics here and this may well reflect a non-random population, but this matches the google search results when the term "crossdresser" is entered. There are millions of sites that cater to the fluff and sexual aspects of the crossdressing. I’ve taken it this is likely representational.

[Veronica27]

A MtF transsexual is a genetic male who feels, thinks and believes that he is a woman, or should be one. A MtF crossdresser is a genetic male who feels, knows and enjoys the fact that he is a man, but who occasionally enjoys wearing female clothing, and who may or may not pretend to be a woman at such times. This is a simplification, but my point is that both should accept the other for who they are. There is a big difference between accepting and understanding and another big difference between understanding and comprehending. I am a CD who accepts those who are TS, and I do what I can to understand them, by listening and reading and thinking about what I have thus absorbed. I don't claim to comprehend their situation, because that is virtually impossible. I cannot get into their mind to know how they feel and it is difficult for them to describe something as subjective as feelings. For example, I cannot fathom how my feelings about my gender could ever lead to suicidal thoughts, but that is what we often hear. I am not being judgemental, but simply admitting I do not comprehend.

By the same reasoning, I don't think that a TS person can really comprehend what being a crossdresser is all about. Many say they do, because they have been through it and that is how it all began. What they are overlooking is the fact that they crossdressed because they were TS. It was the prime subconscious motivator, and it was only after years of introspection that they realized they were indeed TS. They may understand many of the difficulties faced by CD's as they shared them, but from their writings I realize they do not comprehend how a man who is not gender conflicted would want to dress up in women's clothing and even portray at times a woman. They do not comprehend the emotional issues that CD's write about, their desires to remain closeted, and not wanting to be an activist, because they are looking at these issues from the viewpoint of a transsexual. And lastly, they seem unaware of how their comments are giving inaccurate descriptions of CD's that others, including spouses and others may happen to read or hear.

Being TS is a part and parcel of who a person is. Being a crossdresser is what a person does rather than who he is. In many cases it is a very small part of a CD's life. The same cannot be said of a TS. For them it has to be all or nothing, and is certainly a major life altering happening. I lead a very happy and fulfilling male life as a husband, father, grandfather, brother and friend. Why would I want to jeopardize that by telling these people I sometimes like to wear dresses? I have nothing to gain by doing so, because I don't want my crossdressing to be a part of my relationship with them.

And what about going out? I am told repeatedly that by not doing so, I am not being true to myself, and I am not helping the TG community. But how does being someone that I am not promote understanding of who I am and what I like to do. Secondly, the increased awareness of the whole TG scene in recent years has inadvertently painted a vastly different picture of what being a crossdresser is all about than the reality of the situation, and that picture has very negative connotations.

I have been outside the four walls of my home on occasion, but I have not done so for several years now for a variety of reasons. Firstly, as a crossdresser I have no desire to dress the way most women do about 90% or more of the time these days. The whole point of my CDing is to wear those things that women wear for special occasions that are completely different than the things I wear as a man. CDing to me is an adventure where I can experience something completely different. Finding a venue where such dressing is appropriate these days is getting harder and harder to do. CD events used to provide an opportunity for such dressing up, but they are expensive on a pensioner's budget, and they have increasingly been aimed at the TS end of the spectrum. Secondly, my age and health is making it dangerous to walk in heels, as a diabetic condition has affected my sense of balance.

I am not averse to going out again should an acceptable opportunity arise, but that is far from being a pressing concern for me at this time. I enjoy life and all it provides to me. My life has not been without its tribulations and heartbreaks, but I am an eternal optimist and believe in making the most of the life I have been given. Oh, and did I say I sometimes like to crossdress.

Veronica

[Lorileah]

OK people...back on track here. Please. Maybe we need to ask the TSs (yes even me) to stop posting here on this thread? Quit the us vs them stuff. Call this a yellow card

[ReineD]

I'll stop posting here too.

Maybe we could all instead go back to a neutral position and allow that members know how they want to lead their lives. Those who want to come out to come out will come out, and those who want to stay closeted will stay closeted, so there is no need to try to convince anyone of anything. :p

[gokatiegirl]

Coming from a LGBT neighborhood many TSs won't associate with CDs or TVs because of their part-time status. TVs don't care for CDs because most TVs are bisexual and CDs are mostly straight. I was really surprised to see everybody getting along on this site up until now. It seems everybody is lumped together here and many members don't understand each other. Nobody really knows anything about another person unless they walk in their shoes. Nobody is being left behind, if anything they are leaving themselves behind. Last week this thread pissed me off and almost posted 3 times but everyday it's still here. No good is going to come from it.. time to let the thread die.

[Veronica27]

This thread has morphed into a fairly intelligent discussion of some of the differences that exist between various factions within the community. I think we can all learn from it. Please don't close it. I am personally looking forward to some fresh thoughts on the subject.

Veronica

[Eryn]

Sure we have different goals and worldviews, but that doesn't mean that we don't share a lot as well. Many of us have changed our focus from CD to TS partially because of information that we have read here. From where I stand I think that it is profitable to reach out in both directions.

One of the loose-knit groups that I see regularly consists of everything from once-a-month CDers to fully transitioned TSs. For some reason we all get along fine. It might have something to do with the lack of a keyboard/screen anonymity barrier. We do walk in each other's shoes and the stroll is both enjoyable and uplifting for all.

[Mayo]

What a lot of people here are saying is, they don't want to integrate fully as women, because they are not women. They may want to present as women sometimes under some circumstances, and present as men at other times under different circumstances.

Those who do present as women sometimes, like my SO, go out and enjoy themselves. People are already respectful. If they disagree with what my SO is doing, they keep their opinions to themselves.
You and your SO are fortunate. Someone posted in another thread recently that his ex-wife had to move out of the town where she lived because nobody would hire her because her ex-husband is a CD. People have been fired from their jobs, subjected to abuse, and even killed for crossdressing. The tide of society, though it is slowly shifting (at least in the case of TS), is still very much against CDers (again, witness the 'men in womens bathrooms' rhetoric against Houston's HERO). CDs who feel shame at what they do, do so because society teaches them that they are filthy perverts.


But again, you are living full time! This is not the same as someone who wants to live as a male and only dress occasionally. Maybe the source of our disagreement is your belief that the only reason CDers crossdress occasionally is because they want to dress full time but are afraid of the negative consequences of doing so?
Whether or not you (by which I don't mean you personally, of course, but any CD) dress full time is irrelevant. The mere knowledge that you are a CD can ruin your life. If you are fortunate enough that either a) nobody knows or b) you have enough class privilege that you're relatively insulated (e.g. Caitlyn Jenner), or c) you live in a place where the majority of the negativity you might experience if you come out/are outed is tolerable/minimal, then you personally may not care much about 'CD rights'. The problem, as with TS folks and even gays & lesbians in some places (still), is that not everybody has those luxuries and there are still people who feel perfectly justified in harassing anybody who doesn't conform to their narrow definition of what constitutes 'normal'.

The whole issue is, not whether you choose to come out or not, but how you might be treated if you do - accidentally or deliberately. Call me deluded, but I think there should be a reasonable expectation that you should not lose your job or have obscenities spraypainted on your house or live in fear of being beaten up for something you do legally in the privacy of your own home.

What needs to change is society's attitude. This might change organically over the next 50-100 years as a corollary to changes in gay and TS rights, or it could start happening sooner if CDs themselves are prepared to step up and start the (activist) process of educating and informing people and pushing for anti-discrimination laws and so on.

The reason the TSs in this thread are supporting activism is because they have been outed (or have chosen to out themselves) for reasons that many uneducated people still see as not that much different from CDing. They know what it's like to have to navigate a system that, on an institutional and often personal basis, is not set up to accommodate them, and in some cases to actively deny and harass them. (I should say that I rather expect an out CD would probably have an easier time of it if it came down to asserting rights.) They feel strongly enough about their situation (as did gays & lesbians) that they are prepared to advocate for change. CDs as a group, on the other hand, seem rather more content to remain in the closet, perhaps because as 'part timers' or 'hobbyists' they are less invested in CDing as an identity, and are prepared to let individuals deal with any consequences on their own.

If you choose to do nothing (which is entirely your prerogative!), you may never experience any discrimination whatsoever for CDing. If you are out and fortunate, you also may not experience significant problems. If you take an activist role, you almost certainly will, including online and public harassment up to and including death threats. But the more people who stand up, the sooner rights protections for CDs will be put in place. That's the bottom line, really, and the point that I (personally) am trying to make - if nobody says anything, nothing will change, but the more people who speak up the sooner change will happen, and all CDs will benefit.


Maybe we could all instead go back to a neutral position and allow that members know how they want to lead their lives. Those who want to come out to come out will come out, and those who want to stay closeted will stay closeted, so there is no need to try to convince anyone of anything. :p
I agree with PaulaQ and the others who support activism on the part of CDs as something that leads to a desirable goal (more rights sooner), but I'm also perfectly happy to let CDs stay at home and mind their own business if that's what they want to do.

This is my last post too (I keep telling myself that! :D ) unless somebody wants to specifically address something I've said.

[Zooey]

Okay, final summary thought from me here, and then I'll evaporate barring specific responses to something I've written. This is for any of those in the CD community here that go out in public, or who would like to at some point.

Presently, you face real and genuine safety issues by using the men's facilities while dressed, and I acknowledge this. Many of you also get away with choosing to use the women's facilities, which you do for safety reasons, role realization, both, or some other reasons (hopefully appropriate). That is all you are doing though - getting away with it. In any locale without specific protections addressing your situation in place, you are at a very real risk of facing non-trivial consequences should someone decide to press the issue. The political right is making moves that could make those consequences worse.

I believe that, for many of you, this is an important part of your lives. If you would like to be living your life, rather than getting away with living it, a fair number of you will need to stand up, step up, and participate.

Seacrest, out.

[Wen4cd]

Good thread. Uncomfortable, a bit hairy, a bit hot, but in general informative and civil.

I hate to be told what to do probably more than most here due to my history, but I have to admit I've gone forth at times and presented in public, out of a sense of 'duty' as much as anything else. Some part of me knows it is an ambassador for CDing, and that's always lingering in consciousness.

I'm not dumb enough to believe that even the basest level of acceptance by my wife and friends and that I can exist in a place where I could not in the past were not gained by others' labor, and if I were to sit and collect the benefits of that effort and not pull my weight, well, let's just say I'd have a nagging conscience about it.

Not that going out and just being anonymously visible and friendly is equal to lobbying congress for new laws or marching on the capitol or anything, but it is as much as I can do, (I'm plotting ways to do more in my own way) and I think more visibility in a positive way is good medicine for all.

I understand if people need or want to remain invisible too. Being in control if your own risk management is essential. Just don't be overly cautious to the point of regret that you never lived.

[pamela7]

united in difference, differentiated by labels and identities, as the human broccoli reaches fruition each florette is its own unique part of an amorphous whole, and none worry about it cos all is accepted and consumed by the grim reaper ...

[ReineD]

OK Pamela. You've been reading way too much Deepak Chopra. :D

[PaulaQ]

The reason the TSs in this thread are supporting activism is because they have been outed (or have chosen to out themselves) for reasons that many uneducated people still see as not that much different from CDing. They know what it's like to have to navigate a system that, on an institutional and often personal basis, is not set up to accommodate them, and in some cases to actively deny and harass them.

Some of the best reasons why I hope some of you at least will consider coming out, even if only to a few people, are more personal in nature.

I understand that many of you have felt some offense by things I've said in this thread - that I'm somehow disparaging CDs, or think that I, and other TSs, are somehow better than you are. Please be assured that nothing is further from the truth, at least on my part. I have great empathy for your situation, and in many ways I think some of your lives are just as difficult and sometimes painful as my own. I know that's not true for all of you, but I've known enough CDs both here, and personally, to observe that their lives often seem difficult in many ways. I can relate, because before I came out as trans, my life was difficult in many of those very same ways. Perhaps what I experienced was more extreme, since I did need to transition, after all - I don't want to paint all of us with the same brush. But I found that hiding stuff from my wife, and then later living in DADT were both difficult experiences for me, and I think those same things are for many of you. Earlier in my life, I hid this stuff from my mother - I think many of you can probably relate to that.

There is no problem with CDs who don't want to be out, and would never consider being out. The trouble is, the way our world is right now, there is enormous pressure to not be out. So I think it's difficult for any of us to say, for sure, if we'd have hidden our crossdressing if the world were totally accepting of it. If, as a kid, you'd seen one of your friend's Dad's in a dress once in a while, and noted that nobody seemed to care about it one way or the other, would you still not reveal your CDing to the world? Of course the answer could still be "I'd still never reveal that I CD", but I think it's really hard to know how we'd react in a world that was so very different from the one we find ourselves living in.

So the first reason I hope some of you will at least consider helping us change the world by simply being visible, coming out, to even a few people in your lives, is that it sucks that there is so much pressure to hide this - that needs to change. While it's been said many times in this thread that "those who want to come out will come out, and those who don't want to come out won't," the truth is that there is quite a bit of pressure to conform to society's expectations of you, and to not come out. That pressure to not come out, the chances that you could face repercussions in other parts of your life, lead many of us to hide this part of ourselves. I certainly did that for the first 50 years of my life. I can attest that the pressure is real, even if the consequences aren't always as bad as we feared. (The thing is sometimes the consequences ARE as bad as we feared - and that's why many of us feel coerced into hiding our CDing.) Even if you are fine with never disclosing your CDing to another soul, doesn't it sort of irk you, at least a little, that so many people seem to have an opinion about something you do that is absolutely none of their concern? Wouldn't it be better if to be out / not be out were totally your choice, with no other consequences other than how YOU personally feel about the matter?

Secondly, and the thing that really concerns me personally more than anything else, is that when we hide parts of ourselves, parts of who we really are, it doesn't tend to stay compartmentalized to just one part of our lives. We may behave differently than we otherwise would, overcompensating so that no one guesses our secret. We almost certainly will put at least a little distance between us and our family and friends, because there are times when they simply can't be near us, lest they discover something about us we don't want them to know. I can tell you from personal experience, those things are real, and they hurt our relationships with our friends and loved ones, at least a little bit. It's also very difficult to not internalize some amount of shame or guilt because you feel you need to hide something. There are many threads about shame and guilt on this forum, and I know one of the good things that happens here is that many of us help others to get over those feelings. But wouldn't it be better if there were simply no reason to have them in the first place?

Hiding who I was for so long really hurt me. Now I wouldn't expect most of you to suffer from that to anywhere NEAR the degree I did - hey, you are mostly who you say you are. But I believe that hiding, lying to cover up, making excuses - the things we do to keep those around us from finding out - really do damage all of us in some ways. As I said, most of you won't experience that to anything like the degree a transsexual does - although perhaps some of you do - but I still believe it's there.

I believe that all of us here are being hurt by the lack of acceptance of gender variance in our world. The negative attitudes and stereotypes about cross dressers, trans women, all of us who are gender variant, that pervades our society hurt ALL of us. Even if we never leave the house and never experience direct discrimination or prejudice, it's impossible to keep some of the negative images and stereotypes out of your head. Hearing that stuff hurts us as people, and I believe it needs to stop.

Also, and many of us have experienced this, the act of coming out, even to a few people, is an enormous relief. Once I came out, suddenly there were people in my life around whom I didn't need keep my guard up 24/7. I could relax around them. Keeping a secret is a lot of work. It takes a toll on a person.

So I hope that some of you, for your own sakes, would consider helping us change the way the world thinks about gender variant people.

You don't need to transition. You don't need to dress 24/7. I don't expect to see many of you in a pride parade, sashaying down main street. I don't expect to see most of you at a protest rally. Very few of us, really, are called to do those things, and some of you could really ruin your lives if you did.

But what I'd ask you to consider is coming out to at least a few people in your lives. Explain yourself to them, tell them how negative things you've heard people say about crossdressers made you feel as if you had no choice but to hide this part of yourself. What that would do is make many more people aware of crossdressers than are aware of them today. It would put a human face on it. When the people you come out to hear the awful ads on TV about "No men in women's bathroom's" and see the menacing image of a man stalking a cute little girl into a stall, they'll KNOW it's a bunch of hogwash because they know you. (This is what they ran in Houston, and believe me, it is, probably coming to your area over the next year.)

The best way to change our world's view of us is to show them who we are, to put to rest the awful stereotypes about us because they KNOW us. We need to change people's hearts and minds, and there's really no way to do that other than by showing who we are. Laws won't fix any of this - they may be necessary in some cases, but wouldn't it be better if anti-discrimination laws weren't very necessary because people just didn't care enough to discriminate in the first place?

I realize this is a lot to ask, but I hope you'll at least consider what I'm asking you to do, and to imagine a world where people like us face no stigma, or at least a whole bunch less than we do now. This isn't too likely to happen for you unless you make it happen. People have to know you - at least a few. This has been the biggest instrument of change for other LGBT people - as necessary as laws, regulations, and court rulings sometimes are, ultimately, none of those things can make people accept and understand you.

Only knowing you can accomplish those things.

[arbon]

One thing I don't think we need is more activists.

Enough people out there in the public sphere doing damage already.

The best activism is just living a good normal life and not pounding people on the issue. Nothing else really needs to be said.

[ashley_addams76]

Just like anything there are serious issues that many here face and then there are things that are just run of the mill questions we want to know and just for the fun of it. Yes, depending on where you live, crossdressing is a serious issue that many face and that can ruin someone's life. In other places, you can travel freely without incident and a care in the world. The reality is that not everyone is going to be on board with what many of us do on here and even among this community, we won't agree as to what identifies us or how we behave. Sometimes, we are just either blessed or cursed in our circumstances.

[Lauri K]

Some of the best reasons why I hope some of you at least will consider coming out, even if only to a few people, are more personal in nature.

The best way to change our world's view of us is to show them who we are, to put to rest the awful stereotypes about us because they KNOW us. We need to change people's hearts and minds, and there's really no way to do that other than by showing who we are.

I agree with Paula, this is the only sure way to succeed.

This thread this is a good example of why our community struggles to move forward, we must all get aligned on the issues and stop squabbling among ourselves over the small things, there is a bigger picture so set the labels aside.

Off topic a bit, But I was in a bar one night with a younger crowd dressed up of course, a few of them close by were visiting with me and asked me my name I told them it was Lauri. As the night wore on and conversations came about discussing all the struggles we (LGBT/Q, Etc/Etc/Etc) face today were of the main topics.

There was a young man there in the small group that turned to me and said it will be the Lauri's in the world today that will pay the price, so they will have it better in the future so they are accepted and not discriminated against.

I have not forgot that conversation, and I will continue to educate and advocate for our cause one person at a time so others do not have to go through all this fear and worry.


You must know I will never forget that young mans words, and he is right we must pay the higher price so others behind us will not have to suffer through this the hard way.