More than you know!

[sbay06]

So, I read a surprising statistic based off of a gender study done in Australia. The statistic said that between 2% to 5% of all men crossdress. That means that possibly 1 of every 20 men have the desire to crossdress and do so publicly or privately. I just found this statistic quite eye opening and sort of comforting in a weird way. It also made me feel a bit discouraged that society doesn't readily accept something that so many men struggle with, that so many men think is a problem which needs to be fixed. I wish I could rally every guy I know and see if any of them are in the same boat as me and then validate in them that their desires to express and to look a certain way transcend the societal pressures and gender roles that are pushed on us daily. Our biology doesn't dictate our fashion choices or our hobbies. I am happy that so many gender topics are being discussed publicly though (despite all the rash talk and decisions being made). It shows me that societal change is possible and that people are starting to realize gender isn't as black and white as they thought.

[Brandy Mathews]

I think that it is even more then that. You have to remember that most men will not admit to it.
Hugs,
Bree:)

[LelaK]

I don't admit to crossdressing except to people I expect are accepting.

[Robin414]

Great post Sbay...I don't 'cross dress' or do 'drag' WETF that is...I'm just ME, deal with it...cuz I'll fight ya 😠 !

[MissTee]

I've never crossdressed and have never wanted to . . . . {cough, cough}

[heatherdress]

If 5% is an accurate estimate of men who admit to crossdressing, I suspect there are even more men who don't admit that they crossdress or who would like to try crossdressing if they could.

[Beverley Sims]

How many men do you know that dress up in women's clothing?

Men just don't do that, especially those bronzed Aussies that wear Speedos and fight great white sharks. :-)

[Sheila11]

I don't crossdress. I just dress up for Halloween.
(And Easter , Christmas, ground hog day, boxing day, and Tuesday's.)

[sometimes_miss]

There are no studies that will be entirely accurate simply because so many of us are in the closet. The studies that we know of (other than Kinsey) are all of people who willingly volunteer their information, or worse, those who are already in some type of psychological care. That is not an accurate cross section of any society.

[CynthiaD]

No, I don't crossdress either. This thing I'm wearing is just an ankle-length tee shirt. And what about the breastforms, wig, lipstick, jewelry and high heels you say? Well, I'll get back to you on that!

[MissDanielle]

Is it really crossdressing if that's the gender you feel you are inside?

[deirdre travesty]

Ahh ha
Would you please give us a ref to the study you are quoting from.
Sounds extra interesting to us dwelling in the great southland.
How many of my fellow fellas aren't really fellas?
Well , less boring fellas anyway.

[sbay06]

Here is the link to the article I read. It looks like it is actually a study done in the United States, but the Gender Centre of Australia is citing this study in this article.

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/resources/fact-sheets/cross-dressing-information.htm

Here is a link to the actual study: It's really interesting. While those numbers aren't cold hard values, they are great estimates according to this study. I've posted the excerpt of the article done at the bottom for you.

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html

Comparison of results with other
rough projections of the prevalence of TG conditions:

Another form of sanity check can be done on these numbers. We can determine if they are consistent with rough projections of the prevalence of related gender conditions, and with expected ratios of the prevalence of those conditions.

In the United States there are varying estimates of the prevalence of crossdressing. Most conservative estimates are in the range of 2% to 5% of all adult males engage in routine crossdressing (1:50 to 1:20). These are people who crossdress part-time either privately at home, or in private CD clubs, and who find great satisfaction in this practice. In a majority of these cases there is mainly a male fetishistic motivation for the crossdressing. However, in a moderate fraction (1/3rd?) it mainly provides an outlet for mild to moderate to strong transgender feelings.

Some fraction of the "transgender" crossdressers moving through this community will go on to "transition", and take on a full-time social role as women. Of these, some will complete a "TG transition" (without SRS), obtain new ID's, and live as women afterwards. A smaller group will complete a "TS transition" by also having SRS. In the United States those who complete a TS transition can in most states take on full legal status as women (updating their birth certificates, being able to marry men, adopt children, etc).

Long experience in the large crossdressers' clubs appears to indicate that at least 1/10th to1/20th of all crossdressers will eventually complete a full-time transition. Of those who do transition, a smaller fraction, perhaps 1/3rd of them, go on to a complete TS transition (including SRS). These numbers are what you hear if you simply ask crossdressers who are long experienced in these clubs. These rough numbers are also supported by the rough ratios of TG's and postopTS's to CD's in the major website listings of "transgender" people on sites such as Susana Marques TV/CD/TS/TG Directory [5], URNotAlone [6] and Fiona's Fantasyland [7]. Many thousands of (CD + TG +TS) girls are listed on those sites, and you can see the rough ratios by directly scanning those listings. While there are clearly many "self-labeling" problems in such sites, there is no reason to suspect that the self-labeled ratios are skewed very far from those actually encountered in the larger (non-"website") population.

These numbers provide another way to project some estimate expected prevalence of TS transitions, namely by starting at the top and working down. For example, if there only 1:50 adult males were CD's, and if only 1:20 of them transitioned, then we'd expect 1:1000 (TG + TS) transitions. This would predict a very conservative estimate of about 1:3000 for the prevalence of smaller number of TS transitions, which is of the same order of magnitude as we have calculated from the number of surgeries being performed. And of course, this estimate would be much higher if the prevalence of CD's and the fraction of CD's who transitioned were higher than the lower (conservative) values given.

There is yet another way to look at this: Most transgender activist groups in the U.S. estimate that about 1% to 2% of all people have strong transgender feelings and need outlets for expressing those feelings. Many of these people "act out" either by part-time crossdressing (and become the "transgender fraction" of crossdressers), or by adopting a full-time "gender variant" (neither male nor female) persona. Of these people, perhaps 1/3rd or so have more intense "transsexual" feelings and really would prefer to be in the other gender if they could find a way to do that. These numbers suggest some "intrinsic" prevalence of the "inner experience" of being "transgender" or "transsexual", namely for the prevalence of "strong cross-gender feelings" and for "intensely, desperately cross-gender longings" on the order of 1:50 and 1:150 respectively.

However, only a small fraction of such people could accomplish a TG or TS transition, even in the most accommodating of societies. Nevertheless, even if only 1/3rd to 1/5th of those people could transition, this would lead to a projected prevalence of TG transitions at about 1/150 and of TS transitions at about 1:500. In other words, those appear to be likely lower bounds on the "intrinsic" prevalence of such transitions if we started with young people right now and went forward into a time that is much more open to and supportive of such transitions than the past decades.

By cross-comparing all the above data and calculations, and exploiting the rough estimates of ratios of various conditions, we can construct the following table of rough projections of prevalences:

Of course, all these are very rough numbers. They are still subject to definitional and "labeling" problems. Nevertheless, this table is suggestive of what the numbers might be and how the numbers would likely cross-compare from category to category. Note that the rough numbers we get "bottom-up" by counting surgeries in order to calculate an improved lower bound on TS transitioners in the U.S. (1:2500) are seen to be consistent with rough "top-down" derivations from the estimates of crossdresser groups and activist groups in the U.S. that there are roughly 1% to 2% of people who are TG, and perhaps 2% to 5% of males who engage in frequent (private/club) crossdressing. Thus this table "hangs together" in a common-sense way, and is suggestive of where to focus further research to refine these numbers.

The resulting matrix of projections of prevalences will vary greatly from country to country and culture to culture, since each culture differentially suppresses crossdressing vs transgender expressions, and different labels and categories would need to be included in different countries. In many countries there are traditionalized "third sex" social options to which many TG and TS people naturally migrate, whereas those same people were they to live in the U.S. might instead choose to complete a TG or TS transition here. Then too, the ratio of TS vs TG transitions varies greatly from country to country. In many countries where incomes are low and where social constraints are high, very few transgender people can ever afford SRS. In such countries, TG transition is usually the only available option. It would be very useful if researchers could gradually build and cross-compare the overall matrices of prevalences of transgender conditions among more and more countries. Such culture-by-culture prevalences matrices might help us better understand the underlying commonalities of innate conditions that lead to varying transgender personas as a function of one's culture of socialization.

[MissDanielle]

Thanks for sharing that!

It truly shows that a lot of us are out there, even if many are in the closet. I have very strong feelings to the point that I identify as female, even if I can't present as such due to my living conditions for a few months. I've only met with a therapist once and am going back in a a week for another session. I'm making plans to move so that I can start my transition shortly.

[Teresa]

Sbay,
The statistics don't surprise me at all , being men shouldn't exclude us from expressing ourselves for whatever reason . Societies misconceptions are hard to deal with , if men don't fit the stereotype they must be gay or want to change sex. To many people CDing is that black and white and don't understand the shades of grey.

I find the figure comforting, I see it from this perspective, if you are in a group of people you won't be the only one wandering if someone is going to notice your bra straps !

[CarlaWestin]

I don't crossdress either. I'm just a little more focused on my appearance when I'm in other than drab clothes. Where does naked except earrings fall?

[DTelia]

The number is probably about right...but could be higher. It doesn't account for men that are just curious, or playing around, etc. And some have already mentioned that there are many more who wouldn't ever admit it, even in a blind study...but if stats are done right they often make those assumptions in the margin of error.

Since I was well aware of my own tendencies, I was more aware of other men, watching what i was watching. For example, I love watching a women do her hair, or another woman's hair. Yes, there's a very feminine beauty to this as well, and some men are probably just struck at a woman's beauty as she pulls back/up her hair, arches her shoulders...thus her back, often highlighting her breast and figure. My wife had no idea she was doing this, until I explained it to her.

However, a lot of guys watch women do this, and I think I can sometimes tell when they are looking at the women because they also want to do the same thing.

Does that make sense? My two cents.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Sbay:hugs:, Only when the Government makes Crosdressers register will we have an accurate count. ~~...:daydreaming:...

[crobeson96]

I don't crossdress either. I'm just a little more focused on my appearance when I'm in other than drab clothes. Where does naked except earrings fall?

I think 'naked with earrings' counts as a 'thumbs-up' :^) If you feel 'her', it counts.

[Krisi]

Anybody can make up statistics to bolster their particular point of view. The only way to know accurately what percentage of men crossdress would be to set up hidden cameras in their homes. Most people won't admit to something as personal as crossdressing.

And then you have to define "crossdressing". Is wearing panties once a week crossdressing or do you have to wear women's blouses and skirts?

[sbay06]

This post was not meant to start an argument as to the number of crossdressers out there. I just though it was interesting and thought it could encourage those who are feeling like me: isolated. I am an analytical. So having a statistic, even if it's more based on speculation, is comforting to me.

[Sky]

I agree, sbay. Engineers like to say that statistics can be used to disprove gravity. But as long as the reader is careful they may be helpful.

[Cheryl T]

I remember someone saying a while ago.... Gender is between the ears and Sex is between the legs.
I can see that a good percentage of the population are CD, TG, or TS. It just makes sense that there is variation in the world.

[MarciManseau]

I don't crossdress either. I'm just a little more focused on my appearance when I'm in other than drab clothes. Where does naked except earrings fall?

I think that falls in the very sexy class :devil: And I'm the class teacher!

[sometimes_miss]

For example, I love watching a women do her hair, or another woman's hair. Yes, there's a very feminine beauty to this as well, and some men are probably just struck at a woman's beauty as she pulls back/up her hair, arches her shoulders...thus her back, often highlighting her breast and figure. My wife had no idea she was doing this, until I explained it to her. However, a lot of guys watch women do this, and I think I can sometimes tell when they are looking at the women because they also want to do the same thing.
I love watching women. I spend way too much time watching girls doing their make up, hair and outfit of the day tutorials on youtube. It's like being a fly on the wall of their rooms, almost like I guess being a voyeur, but in this case, they're intentionally showing themselves off for all to see. And, of course, it brings on the feelings of do I want the girl, and or do I want to be that girl? Almost always, the answer is, both.

I really believe that there's something genetically connected, that causes endorphin release in men when we look at women that we are attracted to, whether we interact with them or not. Looking at women just makes me feel good.

[vixenvicki]

Anybody can make up statistics to bolster their particular point of view.

To quote Homer Simpson, "People can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of all people know that."

[Nancy Sue]

... I see it from this perspective; if you are in a group of people you won't be the only one wondering if someone is going to notice your bra straps !

I absolutely LOVE this insight Teresa - excellent observation! Thanks, Nancy

[brandigirl]

I never would have guessed those numbers.

[ReineD]

That means that possibly 1 of every 20 men have the desire to crossdress and do so publicly or privately.

If one out of 20 men crossdress, they do it privately or if they go out, they go to LGBT bars although my SO and I have been to many LGBT bars and usually my SO and the Drag Queens are the only MtFs there unless we've gone with members of the gender group. And if you sit at a busy spot in a crowded mall or a busy tourist attraction and observe the hundreds upon hundreds of passers-by, you will be lucky to see one crossdresser all day. But, do 5% enjoy dressing privately with no desire to go out? Maybe, maybe not. Who knows.

[Lovely Rose]

So, I read a surprising statistic based off of a gender study done in Australia. The statistic said that between 2% to 5% of all men crossdress. That means that possibly 1 of every 20 men have the desire to crossdress and do so publicly or privately. I just found this statistic quite eye opening and sort of comforting in a weird way. It also made me feel a bit discouraged that society doesn't readily accept something that so many men struggle with, that so many men think is a problem which needs to be fixed. I wish I could rally every guy I know and see if any of them are in the same boat as me and then validate in them that their desires to express and to look a certain way transcend the societal pressures and gender roles that are pushed on us daily. Our biology doesn't dictate our fashion choices or our hobbies. I am happy that so many gender topics are being discussed publicly though (despite all the rash talk and decisions being made). It shows me that societal change is possible and that people are starting to realize gender isn't as black and white as they thought.

Totally agree with you, we should be able to express our desires without worrying about society, yet society can be very cruel.
Thanks for the great topic.

[pamela7]

Bottom of our forum, right now: "There are currently 209 users online. 25 members and 184 guests"

this says to me, that there are 7-8 times more people in the closet than even get to join this forum. If this forum has 80% of CD who stay in the closet - debtable - and if only 5-10 % of us actually CD in malls then there are by definition 200 times more CD'ers than you get to see in the malls. This might help explain the rarity of emperor's wearing new clothes in public :-) It's not that we're only hypothetical, it's human sheep in action, flocking to be safe.

There could be many times more cd'ers out there who don't even dare look to see if this forum exists.

There could also be many more people in denial or disconnected from such desires, or who never thought of it but would love it.

We might even be the majority, IF only we were not in the closet!

[Pat]

It's an interesting statistic and doesn't actually have good support in the paper you cite. That paper is about calculating the prevalence of transsexualism, not crossdressing and only uses crossdressing as a "sanity check" for the TS numbers it comes up with. It says in part:


In the United States there are varying estimates of the prevalence of crossdressing. Most conservative estimates are in the range of 2% to 5% of all adult males engage in routine crossdressing (1:50 to 1:20). These are people who crossdress part-time either privately at home, or in private CD clubs, and who find great satisfaction in this practice. In a majority of these cases there is mainly a male fetishistic motivation for the crossdressing. However, in a moderate fraction (1/3rd?) it mainly provides an outlet for mild to moderate to strong transgender feelings.

It does not say where those "conservative estimates" come from nor how many such estimates are out there. To me, if I look at a statistic I do know, say the prevalence of motorcycle licenses in the US (2.5%) and compare my experience of meeting motorcyclists versus my experience of meeting other crossdressers I get the sense that these numbers are not at all similar. Also, if you look at that political clout of motorcyclists have compared to crossdressers, I start thinking that if one person in 20 had the habit, we'd live in a friendlier political climate. So unless the source of the conservative estimates is identified, I find myself unwilling to accept that number which is about an order of magnitude higher than numbers coming from The Williams Institute.

[ReineD]

Bottom of our forum, right now: "There are currently 209 users online. 25 members and 184 guests"

this says to me, that there are 7-8 times more people in the closet than even get to join this forum.

Or people log off and keep the browser window open, or wives/girlfriends are reading the forum without bothering to register. Plus there are web crawlers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_crawler). Not every visitor is a closeted CDer. :p

[Lauri K]

In 2015 there was a transgender survey done in the USA, I am awaiting those results to come back, have no idea how soon they will be available..

I also know whatever data comes back will still have a margin of error, but I think that margin of error will put to rest some of the crazy estimates tossed around over the years.

I am betting that the survey will lye somewhere in the 2 percent or slightly higher range (wild guess on my part). If you took the survey you will remember it was much more than measuring CD's

So when you throw in all the labels under the T umbrella, I will not be surprised to see a fairly good number come back from the survey.

[Meghan4now]

Good point Reine. Of course, don't forget that a large portion of the lurker population may be voyuers. It is certainly true of s**m*** porn sites. Those must have huge otherwise straight followings.

Now I want to know why nobody ever asked if I was a CD? Well other than when I'm at support group. Or here.

[Acastina]

This post was not meant to start an argument as to the number of crossdressers out there. I just though it was interesting and thought it could encourage those who are feeling like me: isolated. I am an analytical. So having a statistic, even if it's more based on speculation, is comforting to me.

Hi, sbay06, and welcome to the forum. I, for one, appreciate your analytical bent and long, dense posts. I sometimes get into considerable length as well and sometimes wonder if others find it burdensome or tiresome to wade through them or think that hard about it. I think those among us with well-developed analytically oriented educations (mine is law) tend toward the habitual search for answers to such things as "how many", "how", "how often", and, most compelling, "why". We like to elaborate our queries and hypotheses and tentative conclusions. A bit of quantification is indeed comforting. Thanks, and keep it coming. You won't feel isolated for long here...:hugs:

BTW, the low-single-digit percentage estimate pretty much matches up with various estimates over the years, such as those compiled in a book I just finished recently: Today's Transgender Realities: Crossdressing in Context (G.G. Bolich, Psyche's Press 2007). Also can be a dense read here and there, but a lot of interesting (and comforting) info in there. It's the second in a five-volume series.

[Brandy Mathews]

I think that the number should be a lot higher then that. I think that a lot of men who do dress are not telling the truth about doing it.
Hugs,
Bree :)