new thread about Coming Out

[Badtranny]

Well, the one thing Eryn said in a recent exchange that I can support is she didn't appreciate having her thread hijacked. On that I agree and will defer.

There were a couple of very good comments that popped up in said thread and I wanted to address them.

On 'coming out': It is absolutely necessary for Trans people to come out 100%. Less so for people who cross-dress in secret. There has never been a transition that didn't require the transitioner to tell people what is going on. How in the world are you going to change your name without answering questions? In the TS forum, coming out is a necessity not a theory. We are claiming our identities here, and that can't be done in secret.

On 'your own pace': There is a widely accepted fiction here (mostly propagated by someone who should know better) that the TS community here and specifically me that a transition is only valid if it is undertaken in the same manner as mine or the 'accepted' method. That is observably false, but let me clarify anyway. I will admit to being touchy on a a few things but none of them have anything to do with methodology. My gripe is always about honesty and misrepresentation. When someone comes in here and starts reporting on a transition yet the content of their posts suggests that the transition is largely confined to this forum, then I think that is dishonest and disrespectful of the gals who come in here to lick wounds from an actual transition. So when I point out that the person, doesn't seem to be transitioning at all, (rather just having a social life) I am lambasted by a host of non-transitioning people for being inflexible. The fact is I am a huge proponent of managing your transition to the extent that it can be managed at all. I think it's really smart to pick and choose your battles as it were, however, what is the difference between a cross-dresser who says they are not transitioning yet has a rather active social life in the target gender, and a 'transitioner' who hasn't come out to anyone except their carefully chosen social circle? The answer is none. There is no difference. In fact by disingenuously reporting on a 'transition' such as this you're likely just confusing people who may not be trans into thinking they they too should maybe consider transition.

It really muddies the waters for someone who is questioning and exploring, and we do the newbies a terrible disservice when we let the idea of transition get so diluted that someone who under-dresses every day seriously thinks that they are transitioning. Even though they have done nothing else. A dream, wish or even a distant goal is not a transition, it's just a dream, or a wish, or a goal. A gender transition requires determined action, anything less is just cross-dressing.

In regard to the forum, I think reports should be confined to actual experience. Here in the TS forum there are lurkers who who search desperately for anything they can cling to. If someone has a couple of thousand posts and is presenting themselves as a transitioner then their posts will very likely mean something to someone who is in a similar situation. Using myself as an example, I present myself as someone who has transitioned while working in the field of Construction Management. There are people who have contacted me for advice through this forum as well as my blog. How do you think those people would feel especially the ones who have followed my advice into transition, if it comes out that I'm not actually OUT at work? Oh maybe I'm mostly out, but yeah, when I have field meetings I butch it up, and maybe my badge doesn't have Melissa on it or something. I don't know, could be anything but the bottom line is I would have mislead someone for no good reason. I'll betcha a lot of people would rightly feel betrayed. To those that think honesty doesn't really matter, ruminate on that scenario for a bit.

So there are some who feel like they are transitioning in stealth. meaning they wear women's clothes that look like men's clothes and they are secretly growing their hair out and they assume they're out because "people surely notice something". People don't notice anything and even if they did, they're still calling you bro and dude so if you think you're "out" than think again. Here's a pro tip, transitioning has nothing to do with your clothes. The gal who wears her full male uniform to work with a full beard but is openly transitioning and honest about it is actually IN transition whether she is wearing panties or not. Conversely, the dude who has a bra under his suit and is on HRT and is meeting the "girls" after work for some shopping and drinks BUT "can never tell because of work, kids, wife, etc" is NOT in transition.

[Kimberly Kael]

I think it's critical to note that none of this amounts to a value judgement. Not coming out to the world is a totally viable way to live and it doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else. It's ultimately your choice to do whatever makes you comfortable and happy, and so long as it doesn't harm anyone else there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Trying to redefine terms in use by others starts to edge in "affecting others" territory. Closeted doesn't mean nobody knows, it means that there are people you're deliberately avoiding being open with about some aspect of your identity. That has been pretty well established in the gay community for decades so there's not much point in arguing about it unless your goal is to completely fail to communicate with others. Terms in the trans community aren't as well established because we were still a fragmented bunch of local sub-cultures until more recently, but there are still clearly conventions that it doesn't make sense to ignore if your goal is to communicate with anyone else.

[STACY B]

YEP,,Well it Needed to be said,, Cause if you let it go and let it go,, This place loses it's Value,, You can't let random folks deter from the real Truth and the real Need to knows of the whole group because of molding this whole thing to there liking. Sorry it don't work that way and as a Pretty good Bull shooter myself if I couldn't do it nether can anyone else,,lol,,,

Hell I myself would Love to play it both ways,, And I do sometimes,, But it's gets harder and harder as times goes by,, You must understand the Wide scope of all of this and there would No way you could EVER cover it all up after the pin is pulled,, Way to many trails left behind,, After all you wouldn't be Happy if it did work,, Trust me,, The whole reason for this is to LEAVE the Past the Past right?

[debstar]

You are arguing that transition has no beginning? It just seems to black and white for you and I am happy it's that clear and you are so sure of your self because I am totally not sure what is going to happen to me or even where I will be in a few years if I do not transition.

I met many people at school when I was 10-20 years of age who I have no intention of contacting. To follow the 100% rule to it's logical conclusion I should track them all down and let them know I am trans? or make a public announcement to the whole world or otherwise it does not count as full time? How silly.

But yes we get what you are saying, "It really muddies the waters for someone who is questioning and exploring" it sure does.

Using my self as an example I am intelligent enough not to blindly follow peoples advice no matter how many posts they have clocked up. This is a public forum and many differing views are prevalent. It is clear that the CD group is a safe gateway for those who are discovering or dealing with trans issues. So what's the problem? Not every one is so sure or so ready

This site also has a Safe Heaven that I have not yet joined and am guessing by the dialog here is a bundle of fun.

Look we all get the concept that transition is hard and respect all those here who have transitioned, I personally have no idea or personal experience yet, and that is exactly why I am here.


Debs

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Well, the one thing Eryn said in a recent exchange that I can support is she didn't appreciate having her thread hijacked.

You did have a good point though.


On 'coming out': It is absolutely necessary for Trans people to come out 100%. Less so for people who cross-dress in secret.

While I would agree for the most part, the boundaries between those groups aren't hard lines. So what do the people in-between do. I'm referring to those I (and some others, especially at The Other Place) prefer to call Middle-Pathers. Some of the UK folk here are starting to call them "tweens", but personally I think that term should be avoided. Just so you UK folks know, in the US "tween" is the term used for preadolescent (9-13 year olds usually) So if you say "I went out in "tween mode"" it can come across as "I went out dressed like a preadolescent" to Americans. Better to say "mixed presentation" or "femme-leaning androgynous" more words rather than fewer makes it more descriptive of what you're actually doing.

And I think that would be something Melissa and I would heartily agree on: "More words to describe what you are DOING"


however, what is the difference between a cross-dresser who says they are not transitioning yet has a rather active social life in the target gender, and a 'transitioner' who hasn't come out to anyone except their carefully chosen social circle? The answer is none. There is no difference.

Yep, none really.

Personally, I would think that if one is going full-time soon, then HR/Work is the FIRST thing you should deal with, right? Other than the immediate family one lives with of course. However, as we have seen there is a subtype of older upper class transperson who starts living full-time at near-retirement/semi-retirement/retirement. And who tries to keep boymode around as long as possible. I know of some on these boards and in the past elsewhere who changed her documentation and name, did HRT and other bodymods (often facelifts, botox, brow lift, fillers which make boymode look younger but also have slight "makes the face look more feminine" effects on some faces) but kept boymode for money purposes. I know of some who used FTM breast binders to hide their implants from work. I have "WTF" issues with such people. It's not even a new thing, saw them back on USENET too.


A dream, wish or even a distant goal is not a transition, it's just a dream, or a wish, or a goal. A gender transition requires determined action, anything less is just cross-dressing.

I might not go that far, because under that definition some folks would be defined as crossdressers who most certainly aren't. They're not transitioning-the-moment, but they're most certainly not crossdressers. They're way to female-identified to be crossdressers.

But getting down to it, we might call hair removal a necessary procedure for transition (I think it is), but then again more non-transitioners than ever are also doing it. Personally I think HRT and coming out to work is the start.


How do you think those people would feel especially the ones who have followed my advice into transition, if it comes out that I'm not actually OUT at work? Oh maybe I'm mostly out, but yeah, when I have field meetings I butch it up, and maybe my badge doesn't have Melissa on it or something. I don't know, could be anything but the bottom line is I would have mislead someone for no good reason. I'll betcha a lot of people would rightly feel betrayed. To those that think honesty doesn't really matter, ruminate on that scenario for a bit.

I'm ruminating. As you know, I have mixed feelings on the issue, which is why I believe people shouldn't take the advice of of any ONE person too closely but look for an overall consensus from different sources. It's probably why any revelations of omitted details or dishonesty doesn't bother me "too" much. I'm going to feel much more disappointmentthan any sense of betrayal. Besides, I'm pretty good at reading between the lines, thusly not being surprised if an older upper-class transition near retirement type isn't out at work yet. Usually those who ARE out at work mention it. As I sometimes say: "There are patterns of behavior for this thing of ours for those with the knowledge and skill to see them."


So there are some who feel like they are transitioning in stealth. meaning they wear women's clothes that look like men's clothes and they are secretly growing their hair out and they assume they're out because "people surely notice something". People don't notice anything....

Ha! You'd think they notice, but other than a very few "aware people", they don't. But I personally wouldn't call slip-sliding into androgyny a transition....it CAN lead into one and become one (and usually does for most people doing it from what I've seen), but isn't one itself....well not at first anyway.


The gal who wears her full male uniform to work with a full beard but is openly transitioning and honest about it is actually IN transition whether she is wearing panties or not. Conversely, the dude who has a bra under his suit and is on HRT and is meeting the "girls" after work for some shopping and drinks BUT "can never tell because of work, kids, wife, etc" is NOT in transition.

Totally agree, though the latter might end up doing an actual transition anyway...if the dysphoria gets strong enough. You know how that is.

Veronica

[pamela7]

I think BadTranny has fairly called it as it is. There's a Rubicon to cross, friends will be lost, we weigh the pro's and cons of being true to our feelings or the needs of others around, and compromise or not. Once a person has irrevocably crossed it, then they're out and ok in her books, and before then we're merely "vapour". I've seen enough trauma effect to know that a series of small changes is acceptable and non-traumatic to the person and their local world, while a massive impact creates ripples and consequences. I'm trying to tread the little-step path. If this lacks authenticity to others, then fair enough, that's their view. The only proof is in the actions and the end result.

[Suzanne F]

Debs
No one is criticizing you for your method of exploration. This argument is about what it means to be full time and out of the closet. I don't believe we have to track everyone down to be out of the closet. I believe you know if you are out or not. In my case I will be me no matter what any other person prefers. My name and gender are legally changed and I am proud to be me. It is quite simple. No I did not get there overnight or without a lot of support. It was a process. But until I was there I was in the closet. The reason this is important is the shame we all have experienced about our gender not matching our biological bodies. The fact that anyone cares what another thinks about their transition says it all. We have been ashamed. Fighting through that shame to finally say yes I am a woman and I am proud of it is valuable. It doesn't mean anyone else's process is flawed. It just says that we have achieved something that we want credit for. That is important.

[Zooey]

If you have people in your life from whom and/or periods of time where you are actively hiding who you are from the world, you are in the closet.

If you are ever worried about "being caught" as yourself, you are probably in the closet.

If you don't, then you're not.

It's not about how many people know, or whether you tracked down everybody you ever met to tell them. It's not about whether you tell everybody who you interact with from here on out (there's no need for that). It's not about being full-time. It's about whether or not you're actively hiding who you are.

I didn't disclose to everybody until I went full-time, but once I told my parents and considered myself out, any time somebody asked me if I was transitioning, said they were noticing changes, etc., I told them what was going on. No hiding.

[flatlander_48]

On 'your own pace': There is a widely accepted fiction here (mostly propagated by someone who should know better) that the TS community here and specifically me that a transition is only valid if it is undertaken in the same manner as mine or the 'accepted' method. That is observably false, but let me clarify anyway. I will admit to being touchy on a a few things but none of them have anything to do with methodology. My gripe is always about honesty and misrepresentation.

M:

When I read what you wrote previously, the point was clear and I understood the logic behind what you were saying. Funny thing is I started to send you a PM because I did have a concern and that had to do with delivery. It just seemed to me that an axe in the forehead wasn't needed, but that is how it felt to me.

From what I've seen, you are very passionate about what you believe. I understand that and I am the same way. There is absolutly no crime in that because it is what drives us to speak up. But, what I've seen over the years is that it is very easy to reach a point in the conversation where the other person stops listening. You can say whatever you want after that, but it will just not be heard. Also from personal experience, it is very easy to pass that point and not know it.

Anyway, I would characterize the take-away this way:

The delivery is almost as important as the content.

DeeAnn

[Paula DAngelo]

It's about whether or not you're actively hiding who you are.




I think this says it all, until you are not hiding who you are you're not full time. I just recently came out at work which was the last place that I was hiding who I am. At this point I now consider that I'm full time and I'm not about to hide for anyone, and as far as people from my past that I rarely if ever see, they'll see the "new" me as we come into contact again and they can either accept who I am or not, it's their choice.

[Brooklyn]

The important thing for me in this forum or IRL is that people speak from actual experience and avoid speculation when possible. I’ve had surgery on my face, the people I work with and our clients only know me as a woman, my driver’s license says I’m female, and so on. For me, there is no going back. Yet, I will avoid handing out advice about SRS/GRS because I haven’t had that yet.

[ReineD]

There are only two aspects to gender determination. One is who a person feels they are internally, and the other is how they are perceived by others.

I think a lot of people at cd.com consider the first aspect primarily: "I think therefore I am". And so they can live with how they are perceived by the people in their daily lives (their bosses, the bulk of their work associates/clients/students/etc, their full extended families, the bulk of their friends, their neighbors, and other community members or groups they may be involved with), whether the perception is male, male with a twist, male who looks androgynous, male who kinda looks femmy, etc. They are secure in their self-assessment as women, and the rest doesn’t matter or they are biding their time, secure in their self-identity and satisfied with the validation from selected people in their social lives to whom they are out, until it is safer to come out full time either at retirement, or when kids are independent, or when their tenure in civic involvements is ended, etc. It’s a way to minimize the potential losses of coming out fully. To an outsider like me, it looks as if gender dysphoria is not as pronounced in this group of people as it is in someone who HAS to transition at all costs NOW.

But, obviously the process of full transition does require an all-around abrupt change in how someone is perceived, from "man" to "woman" (for MtFs). It’s a declaration of intent together with adopting an unmistakable woman’s style initially until the full physical transition has been completed and the way the TS is perceived matches who she feels she is internally. The perception of one’s gender by all others is of primary importance to someone who suffers from severe gender dysphoria, because they cannot live another minute while being perceived as a man, or femmy man, or any other type of "man".

So maybe a good way to differentiate between people for whom other people’s perceptions of their inner gender is not as important or they're not quite sure what end result they want and so they are taking it one baby step at a time, and the people for whom it is of primary importance, is to say that a person intends on fully transitioning at a later date vs is transitioning now?

I’m putting forth this suggestion merely as a way to keep the peace, recognizing there are degrees of gender dysphoria and various resulting timelines with different severities of potential losses. My last attempt at differentiating between people who need to transition vs those whose need seems not as dire (full vs partial transition) some months ago didn’t go over very well. :p

[Zooey]

Reine,

I almost always appreciate your efforts to broker understanding, but this is (amazingly enough) not a discussion about the need to transition "fully" or not, nor the difference between CDs and TSs. This is a discussion about what it means to be "out". It's an unambiguous concept, as far as I'm concerned.

Incidentally, "Full" transition is a distinction I fundamentally disagree with, insofar as I don't think "partial" transition actual exists. It might be transition-in-progress, or it might be a transition to align with a bi-gendered identity, or it might just be cosmetic alterations that aren't really in service of a real identity issue, but I don't think it's an actual thing on its own.

If I start driving from New York to California, and decide to just settle in Michigan, I'm not "50% living in Los Angeles" - I'm "100% living in Michigan".

[Badtranny]

Okay, some excellent replies here so far but some are beginning to parse my words a bit.

Transition is a VERY personal thing and everyone will approach it in their own way. All I ask as a forum participant is that they be honest about it. If you are mostly closeted, don't try and claim otherwise. If you have never been out as your target gender, don't say you're considering transition. If you are driving an hour out of town to express yourself, then just admit it. There are a ton of people reading the TS forum looking for answers and they feel like they're the only one thinking about this stuff but maybe they've never done anything either. They need to see your honest posts.

The newbies don't have a clue about what the 3 and 4 year girls are dealing with. My life is so completely foreign to a newbie that they can barely imagine the things I complain about. I know this because I used to be one of them. This forum is not for the grizzled burnt out trannies like me. This forum is for the transitioners new and old. When the new girls are totally honest about what they're experiencing and not trying to impress anyone it can be really powerful to the people that come in here with questions and concerns.

What is the TS forum supposed to be about? Next level cross dressing? No, the TS forum is specifically for TS experiences and that is what we should be talking about.

[ReineD]

but this is (amazingly enough) not a discussion about the need to transition "fully" or not, nor the difference between CDs and TSs. This is a discussion about what it means to be "out". It's an unambiguous concept, as far as I'm concerned.

I know, and I don't think I expressed myself clearly enough. Misty referred to people who say they are transitioning, but who don't go through everything that transitioners go through. I refer to the "everything" as "fully", meaning being out to everyone, name change, living as a woman full time including at work, etc. It's just a word I use to mean doing everything one needs to in order to be perceived as a woman by everyone in one's life. I'm past thinking of it in terms of full vs. partial transition, which as stated didn't go off too well here some months back.

Misty, as a comment to your post above mine, it makes sense that if a person recounts positive experiences while out presenting as their target gender, it would also be helpful to tell newbie potential transitioners where they're at overall in their lives, lest the newbies get the impression that everything is roses? I should think that coming out to everyone, presenting as a woman full time and going through legal name change, etc, brings with it, in the big picture, some but fewer positive stories because of the emotional ramifications of doing so ... given there are still lots of people in our society who don't embrace transsexualism. Was this your point?

[Badtranny]

Yes I think you're getting the point and then extrapolating a bit. :-)

I don't know if it's possible to have a transition that doesn't experience some sadness or disappointments. I don't know every trans girl like PaulaQ does (love ya girl) but I do know a few and without exception they have all endured some pretty rough shizzle. I've had it pretty easy compared to some of them but my Cis friends are horrified at some of the things they've seen me go through. So no one gets out unscathed. Transition will absolutely leave a mark, and I'm very suspicious of those who would say otherwise.

Having said that, the success stories should be posted along with the job losses and divorces. It doesn't matter what anyone talks about actually, as long as it's honest and doesn't misrepresent anything intentionally or otherwise.

Transition is a major life change. Bigger than divorce, bigger than moving. There is nothing more disruptive to your life than a gender transition except for perhaps dying.

[Rianna Humble]

At the risk of giving Melissa a heart attack this early in the year, I agree with what she is saying (as opposed to what some people want her to be saying).

You are not out if there are periods of the day when you are still deliberately in the closet.

Like Melissa, I understand that some people have constraints and have to do things at their own pace, but I find it unhelpful when people who are hiding their true identity try to give lessons on what it means to "have transitioned" or to "be out".

Like Melissa, I also understand that there is a period in the early days when someone will be "coming out" as they let more and more people know about their situation.

This is not about saying that there is only one way to do things. Apart from the need, the start point and the end point there is little in common between how Melissa transitioned and how I transitioned, but neither of us would ever claim that the other had done it "the wrong way".

[Marcelle]

. . . Transition is a VERY personal thing and everyone will approach it in their own way. All I ask as a forum participant is that they be honest about it. If you are mostly closeted, don't try and claim otherwise.

VERY personal indeed and in some ways customized to the individual. However, the overriding factor IMHO is that you are not hiding who you are from any part of your life. I am a newbie in the sense I recently gravitated to this side of the forum when I realized I no longer held common ground with recreational dressing, going out shopping en femme but returning to guy mode . . . I wanted to live my life authentically as a woman in all aspects of that life. I started here as a self professed "middle pather / gender fluid" because while I was out to the world around me I still lived part of my life as a "guy" but, I was upfront about that here and made a few blunders, got a few smack downs (eloquently put though by some ;)) However, everyone around me knew I was TG and twice a week at work they saw that side of me. I never hid that from people I met. When I realized I missed "her" when I was "him" but not "him" when I was "her" necessity required that I go full time because emotionally I was becoming a wreck flipping back and forth but in a sense I was already there. My point is by that juncture everyone knew I considered myself a woman and not a man irrespective of whether I was in guy or gal mode. It wasn't about the clothes it was about me being a woman regardless of how the world saw me.

I think the overarching theme of the OP (Missy feel free to correct me if I am wrong) is that irrespective of where you fall "thinking, contemplating, middle pather, gender fluid, pre-op transition, post-op transition" own that aspect of your journey but be up front about it. If you are going to post on this side of the forum and have something to add from your own unique perspective then do so but be honest. I doubt anyone would be upset if you couched your responses in terms akin to "While I am not out at work I can say that . . . ".

I have no internalized drive to seek HRT or surgery as I quite like my physiology, embrace it and accept I am a woman albeit phenotypically male. As such I won't jump into posts/discussions about HRT, GRS, FFS with comments such as "As a transwoman I think . . ." because I have no experience with those aspects of this journey. It doesn't make me less of a woman, I just don't have anything intelligible to add short of a supportive comment. I will jump in to the fray when discussing aspects of coming out, living my life authentically as a trans woman because I do have something to share. I think that is all that is being asked . . . own your status and add from that perspective not from a position which you cannot identify with. It doesn't minimalize you as a contributor it just ensures that confused/questioning people who gravitate here see the whole picture and make informed decisions based on accurate portrayals. :)

Cheers

Marcelle

[Kaitlyn Michele]

We go through a process and we call it transition...it is what it is... and you can complete a project or not....but its the project that matters..not what you say about it and not how you do it.

i recall many years ago my boss complained to me that a project was half finished...i excused the delay by discussing the process...
he shut me up and said..."process is masturbation".... talking about it doesnt mean anything..and all we can do here is talk, so keep it real..

[pamela7]

There's probably only one person we actually come out to - oneself. Everything else is then excuses if I get Melissa's honesty message.
I've read a lot of stories on this forum of the consequences of coming out all in one fell swoop, of how most friends are lost, wives are lost, jobs and so on - not always but a huge price. There is another way in terms of change. Governments use it all the time; it's called the six degrees of separation from one perspective, and "entailments" from another perspective. While an instant shock marks a trauma, a gradual pacing-and-leading slowly cooks the boiled frog (it jumps out of already-boiling water). There's nothing wrong in trying this way to keep friends through the process, to keep a marriage, to make the shift from caterpillar to butterfly in a chrysalis. In the end though, the butterfly will out.
If someone has hidden this from themselves all their life then its also not going to come out in one big lump, more likely as the steam comes off a pressure cooker - many kinds of volcanoes, the least damaging of which have many small eruptions, and the world adapts readily to them.

I know where I'm heading. I've have the chems+surgery discussion with my wife, and she says its now time to see the dr. If i'd said out 12 months ago the shock might've been too great. As it is I've lost the US agent for my work due to coming out only a little to them, but the rest of my working network has remained robust.

In the grand scheme a little hiding is not a bad thing as long as the result happens. In fact according to some highly experienced psychotherapists learning to lie is a key part of human development, missing in autists. Everyone keeps secrets; honesty is in knowing the lie is a lie.

Honestly, where am I at? Having exhausted all other causes, my chronic testicular pain now lies at the psychosomatic part of dysphoria, my hate of shaving due to my ultra-soft skin being cut every time is also dysphoric in cause. I did not create the testosterone surge at puberty to stop growing for many years, and so have small equipment - no great loss then (can often get away without tucking) - and no noticeable hair on arms/legs/back/stomach anyway - don't need to shave those parts. After a year of soul-searching process I have a new understanding of my childhood and development, of why and how I interacted with the world as I did.

So I plan to have an orchidectomy and facial electrolysis, hrt to create a form in my own image. The pace will be my own. It's all talk and no trousers without the action. I'll report on that once there is some to report.

[GretchenJ]

All I ask as a forum participant is that they be honest about it. If you are mostly closeted, don't try and claim otherwise. If you have never been out as your target gender, don't say you're considering transition. If you are driving an hour out of town to express yourself, then just admit it. There are a ton of people reading the TS forum looking for answers and they feel like they're the only one thinking about this stuff but maybe they've never done anything either. They need to see your honest posts.

The newbies don't have a clue about what the 3 and 4 year girls are dealing with. My life is so completely foreign to a newbie that they can barely imagine the things I complain about. I know this because I used to be one of them. This forum is not for the grizzled burnt out trannies like me. This forum is for the transitioners new and old. When the new girls are totally honest about what they're experiencing and not trying to impress anyone it can be really powerful to the people that come in here with questions and concerns.

What is the TS forum supposed to be about? Next level cross dressing? No, the TS forum is specifically for TS experiences and that is what we should be talking about.


Ok, I totally get it now and am in 100% agreement on this. I know that I am TG, but I am closeted and when I do express myself I am doing it far away from my house, I am by no means TS, and by that I never give or will give any advise to anyone to anyone who is transitioning, maybe my downside would be to offer a shoulder because that is my nurturing personsonality to do so.

But I do get where you are coming from Melissa, I been here for over a year , so I pretty much have a handle on who I need to talk to when it comes to certain subjects , the newcomers would not know that, so if I decided to seek out advise on coming out, I would definitely seek those people out with the battle scars of the war.

Where I think Reine is coming from, and where she is coming more from our perspective, is that since the Crossdresser only contingent is grouped in with the TG contingent and with the TS group, the people who are TG tend to post outside of the Crossdressing forum because they want to express something that is outside the beauty, comportment, venturing out topics, and will look to people such as yourselves because we are confused and conflicted. So, with that, us in the TG category are sometimes scared sh$tless to post here, because it will not be sugar coated, it will be honest, but SOMETIMES, not always, be trivialized. But again, I have seen people in the short time I have been here that I thought were full time, had over 5000 posts, then proven to be not what they pretended to be.

To piggyback on Reine's suggestion, and I will definitely reach out to the admins and the veterans and admins as well is this
a) should those that are TG but not TS be allowed to post topics and/or reply to posts.
b) if the answer to a) is no, then so be it - I will abide by this as I consider this a privilege to even be here and will limit my discussion to the Crossdresser forum
c) if the answer to a) is Yes , then terrific, but perhaps maybe we should should alter our profiles to reflect where we are in our "journey" for the newbies to identify
- TG (transgender only)
- TSP (transition in progress, currently doing HRT, doing RLE, out at work)
- TS (out 100%, full time, [dont know about separate designations for those with SRS vs those without]

thanks for listening and have a great New Year

[PretzelGirl]

Gretchen, the mods have already said anyone can post in this subforum, so you are okay to do so. It isn't the who, but the subject matter unless someone defines who can reply to their particular message, i.e.: "Only those on HRT can reply". There is a "Dictionary" of terms added to the stickies so we talk the same language. But I don't think identifying ourselves as an acronym will be clear enough. I am Transgender and that is the term I use regularly with everyone and the only exception to make a clear distinction medically that I am pre-op, then I tend to say pre-op transsexual. And those meet the definition of the sticky. The TSP just hits one moment of time of being "on the path" when there are many steps. So I think using full statements is a necessity for clarity. I like the simplicity of the concept, but I don't think it would work out functionally.

I would like to add a piece here and I see it in more than one message above. No one can talk to my path and results (saying mine as an example; anyone else's path). So just because someone can say "I am fully transitioned" doesn't mean they should make all inclusive comments. As they old therapy rule goes, use "I" statements, not "we". I had a great transition and lost zero friends. I can see more than one all inclusive comment above that state otherwise ("you will...."). If we want to draw lines about who can talk about transition, they should we also draw them on who can talk about each other's transition. Share your own experience, maybe state it is extremely common for "X" to happen, so be ready. But leave the "always" or "never" out.

Misty, I am 100% with you. The difficulty of these threads (like two months ago) is that the main point starts to lose focus among all the variations that start coming in and the original thought becomes harder to trace. Heck, I may have just contributed to that in the previous paragraph. I think we will always be stuck with some amount of self policing too. FTEFW is clearly not 100% and probably meets the general consensus, but having done everything except a legal name change has proven to be argumentative. Which also lends to my statement above that an acronym won't cut it. If someone is completely full time except for a name change, that is awesome. Like you said, they can't tell me how to get a name change.

[Kimberly Kael]

There's probably only one person we actually come out to - oneself. Everything else is then excuses if I get Melissa's honesty message.

Coming out to anyone is a matter of deciding to share something that was formerly a secret. I'm not sure how anyone can keep a secret from themselves so it just doesn't apply in the same way. Learning to accept who we are is an interesting and distinct process, but it's not the same thing at all.

What Melissa is talking about is a third thing: honestly representing to people here what your life experience is. It's not a question of coming out to people here, but in being transparent about what your life is like. The whole point of sharing here should be so others can learn from your experience. If the experience is misrepresented it undermines that goal.

[Badtranny]

Perfect Ms Kael.

This discussion always devolves into degrees of transition and what should be considered transition and I don't care about any of that.

The only thing that really matters to me as a reader and as a one time newbie whose life was literally changed by this forum, is honesty. If you are closeted to any degree, than say so. If you are pretty much out everywhere "except work", but you still put on a dude suit to see your mechanic, or your CPA, then talk about it here because I can guarantee you that other people are going through the same thing but think they're the only one on the board who is.

This shouldn't just be another place on the internet where you can re-invent yourself and live the life you don't have the courage to live IRL. This is the place you come to while you're growing that courage. This is the place where you finally drop the BS and talk about who you really are and what you plan to do about it.

No pretense, no fantasies, just real life trans women playing the crappy hand they were dealt.



At the risk of giving Melissa a heart attack this early in the year, I agree with what she is saying (as opposed to what some people want her to be saying).

Yeah, I don't what the hell is going on either but I'm having trouble remembering what we used to fight about all the time. (and I'm not at all interested in finding out) :-)

[debstar]

This is a great thread and I'm really gaining a lot from it. I am closeted no doubt about it.

But I guess on this path I need small wins to help me along the way. Small things so I can feel like I am moving forward. Telling my best friend and as of today my sister (although I'm waiting to hear back from her)

Saying I'm semi out is really just about patting my self on the back to remind me how far I have come and how far I have to go.

While I get anxiety and take it out on members here from time to time I apologise for that and really do hold anyone that has transitions and is out.. yes fully 110% out as role models for my self.

My anger comes from a place of self hatred and bitterness and is not really directed at any one other then myself.

So the take away message from this, for me, is that being out is not about how many people you can tell but being true and comfortable with ones self. I guess at this very early stage I am so scared and can not see that future yet.

Debs.

[Barbara Dugan]

This is a great thread! Melissa is one of the girls I admire and play close attention to what she says, and she is 100% right on post..my short time goal for this year is being completely honest about my self.I know it won't be easy or a flawless process but its nothing I can't do...one of the things that really inspired me is the complete honesty and courage of the girls of my local Latin support group, most of the girls have lost families and live on the fringe but still live true to themselves with no regrets.

[Badtranny]

I guess at this very early stage I am so scared and can not see that future yet.

Well, Debs I hate to tell you this, but every single one of us "bitter trannies" has felt the exact same way.

This is why it's so important to just be honest here because if you hang out and pretend that you're just doing it your way, and nobody's the boss of you, and stupid badtranny doesn't get to define you, then you're only robbing yourself of a transition scarred woman telling you that she used to feel exactly that way.

None of us knew what was in store. I tried so hard to manage my transition and control the message but when you have a full life and a long career, that message will get away from you. There was a time when I was terrified all of the time. When we say stuff like "it get's easier" it's not because anything actually gets easier. It's because we just get tougher. There comes a time when you realize that you hate hiding under a blanket more than you love your old life.

There is never less fear, only more courage.

[becky77]

Some of the UK folk here are starting to call them "tweens", but personally I think that term should be avoided. Just so you UK folks know, in the US "tween" is the term used for preadolescent (9-13 year olds usually)


I'm from the UK and I know what Tween means thank you. Not sure who these people are that have bizarrely taken to using this term now. Bit weird when it relates to kids!!
As far as I'm concerned it's an adolescent word for adolescents.

Melissa I agree with your pursuit of honesty, I grow tired of the blatant bending of truth on here, being corrected by someone with scant experience makes you not want to post.

Go full-time you will soon learn how wrong you are.

When so many have their own definitions is it any wonder they think they're being honest?
I mean you can honestly think you are fully out if you stick to your own idea of fully out.

[Jennifer-GWN]

A moment of hindsight from my side. I really didn't understand nor acknowledge how much of a difference going from full time everywhere but work and full time even though realistically since I work at home I was essentially presenting full time. That big psychological step from almost there to THERE is huge one. Coming out at work is not trivial emotionally and no matter how at ease one might be being full time "most" of the time being truly full time is big. It taking off that training wheels that was attached to your bike as a kid when you'd gotten to the point they never touched the ground but just having them provided a degree of comfort and confidence. Once their gone you have no choice but to push forward without looking back. It can be quite subtle but monumental at the same time.

Don't under estimate how big a jump that is and don't assume or presume it's easy in advance. I did the annonomous stage, the acknowledgment to others stage, then the big one at work, and finally closing out with childhood home and old friends and schoolmates, capped off with official documents and name. Work and official name change for me represented the most substantial and impactful stages in become authenticity full time. For me the progression was based on my level of confidence in myself but also critically evaluating me in the 3rd person with an view on how others would perceive me in day to day interactions. Perhaps that's a more conservative approach compared to others who tend to jump first then deal with the consequences afterwards. To each there own; you choose your path and consequently have to live and deal with the impacts that come. In the end I do agree full time is full time and not a trivial mountain to climb. As much as you might think being some large percentage of time out is the same its definitely not. This is the transition reality.

Jennifer

[Nicole Erin]

With those who "transition" over a forum only -
It isn't much different than the general public who lives their entire life on facebook or other social media. Of course they are good at making their lives look perfect.

[Sara Jessica]

I am comfortable with full knowledge of who I am in my heart of hearts. I have taken some steps that will be of tremendous benefit if the day ever comes that I transition. Yet I have made the decision NOT to go down that path. This doesn't mean I won't read in this section with great interest as to how those are progressing in the real world. I want to hear of successes. I am saddened by tales of struggle. However, I have no desire to read of sugar-coated exploits.

It is not unreasonable for any reader in this section to expect 100% honesty. There is too much at stake for many who seek knowledge that may be applied to their own situation. Melissa is right on point here and she should be commended for sticking around and actually giving a hoot. Still, it is sad that it takes a dissertation such as hers to make a point which should be common sense.

[MissDanielle]

With those who "transition" over a forum only -
It isn't much different than the general public who lives their entire life on facebook or other social media. Of course they are good at making their lives look perfect.

While this year has been great for trans visibility, I'm not sure how well things will go over on social media--especially from family members--once I start posting photos of me looking very much like a female. I'm not one of those with some 200-500 FB friends. I have nearly 2,000 of them! The moment I change my name will be a very happy and scary day at the same time. Happy because it's who I am but scared because I know that a number of friends and family are so conservative in their views that they just can't accept someone who is trans.

[dreamer_2.0]

Why not create a second account for yourself and only befriend supporters? I did this and while managing two accounts gets a little confusing at times, it's been a wonderful way to be myself with supportive people. The friends list started small but it's grown. The second account also allows me to post stuff I normally wouldn't on "his" account, so it's offered some freedom. It's not the be all and end all of coming out, but it's a step. As time has gone on, I've found myself posting more and more on Holly's account than "his". That trend will continue until I've stopping posting completely on "his" account.

Just a thought. :)

[Megan G]

I thought about using a second Facebook account before I was out but then decided against it. I used the FB and LinkedIn platforms to "finalize" my coming out. I told the important people face to face if possible, or by phone/email. I still remember sitting there, with the mouse on the submit button thinking to myself "am I ready for this". I was scared shitless!! But after it was done I immediately felt better, than once the notes of support started flowing in it made it all worth it. I was done coming out...

Being able to change my old name of "Drew" to my new name of Megan on both LinkedIn and Facebook felt so great. One of the final nails in the coffin...

[dreamer_2.0]

I get shivers just thinking of that moment and how it must feel. :)

[MissDanielle]

I couldn't handle two FB accounts. I've been messaging friends and select family members in private to let them know what's going on.

[Kimberly Kael]

I'm not one of those with some 200-500 FB friends. I have nearly 2,000 of them!

I have no idea what your point is. That you have so many people connected to your Facebook account you have no way of posting anything real without getting uncontrolled feedback? That's pretty much true by the time you have one parent, one sibling, one distant relative, an ex-, and a coworker. It doesn't take a lot of people for the process of coming out to reach escape velocity and leave any ideas of careful disclosure in the dust.

Having a second Facebook account seems to work well for some of the people I know who plan to spend a lot of time in the middle path. It just seems unnecessary for anyone in the throes of transition.

[Rogina B]

I really agree with Kimberly Kael..She lives it.. So Melissa,aka Bad Tranny.. Were you out as a "gay guy" to those same tradesmen that you later came out as a transwoman? You have taken some shit ,for sure. However,not all of us are fragile..Some of us live life on our terms and are truly comfortable in who we are. So,were you seen as a different form of queer?

[Badtranny]

This is such a great question.

I came out as gay at work near the end of 2010 I think.. Those familiar with my story know that a bad car accident in January of that year prompted me to examine my life as a closet case and I decided that night to deal with whatever it was that I was dealing with. I was not a cross-dresser but I was absolutely a closeted homo who was having occasional 'relations' on the DL.

Now there's a back story to this involving a failed coming out when I moved to the SF area in 2006 but that's not important now.

Basically, I knew something wasn't right, I knew I was pretending to be something I wasn't and I knew I wanted to be free. I started coming out as gay to friends in January 2010 and started with a therapist as soon as I found one which was March I think. By that summer I was on HRT and by the end of the year I started coming out as trans. At some point in early 2011 I came out as trans at work and by that time I was openly transitioning with no secrets from anyone. I gotta say that 2011 was a pretty good year, but 2010 was a great year. I had just started crossdressing in 2009 and 2010 was a blur of coming out and going out. I did lots of fun stuff for sure.

The cross-dressing got real old near the end of 2011 and there were some heartbreaking moments in the months before I left for the first round of FFS in 2012 but that's a story for another time.

[LeaP]

I feel increasingly detached from these discussions. Two bits of commentary prompt my response, including my opening sentence: Misty's, on the personal nature of each transition, and Kaitlyn's on the meaninglessness of talking about it.

Honesty is a forum virtue, important for its own reasons. Honesty's value to the transitioner - your own honesty with yourself - is entirely different and bears directly on arriving at a personal, or even a "true" or valid transition. Transition is not just personal in the sense of making your own choices and setting your own path, it's intensely, fundamentally personal as a reflection of your self. I won't even try to characterize mine, but to say that it is SO like me. So much of the talk over the last few years, whether in therapy, here, or elsewhere, or in introspection and writing, only served to get me to see myself, feel myself, and finally, act as myself. And having arrived at that, the discussion doesn't consume me any more. It's like a bad dream.

Don't misunderstand. I care. If I can really connect with someone, I'm happy to offer what little I have. But that comes right back to the personal. The most important things I have done to-date make no difference whatsoever to anyone else's transition or needs. Such differences are one of the roots of the constant misunderstandings here.

It's hard participating here. In some ways it's like being in an asylum. One where the inmates don't know what they are. Sadly, honesty is one of least valued things here, really.

[pamela7]

It's hard participating here. In some ways it's like being in an asylum. One where the inmates don't know what they are. Sadly, honesty is one of least valued things here, really.

That sums up how i feel about the world anyway. Only one being looking out the eyes of everyone, intent on destroying itself.

[I Am Paula]

The whole concept of degrees of everything, and real/not real, and complete/not complete is absurd.
If somebody walks up to me in a long fur coat, and a black painted nose, and says 'I'm a bear' my response 'Cool, I love bears'.
If they say they are a bear in transition, all I can say is 'You look great, keep up the good work'.
If they say they are a full time bear, all I can do is believe them.
It's not a competition.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

no thanks...strawman alert
who said it was a competition?

what you are describing is not communicating...
why bother communicating at all???

nothing wrong with casually saying Have a nice day when you don't give a crap to random people...but here is different...its a community and people communicate difficult things, share intimate moments and bring forward lots of hard to come by experience...

Thoughtlessly and casually affirming assertions about identity is the PC thing to do, it seems the nice way
but it serves no one..

and without getting to in the weeds...the reason to not be so casual is that the RISK and COST of being WRONG about your identity is very HIGH.... and the unwinding of identity can take years decades and even lifetimes.... being honest and having that honesty reflected back at you is more valuable than a hug almost every time...

[Nicole Erin]

I'm not one of those with some 200-500 FB friends. I have nearly 2,000 of them! The moment I change my name will be a very happy and scary day at the same time. Happy because it's who I am but scared because I know that a number of friends and family are so conservative in their views that they just can't accept someone who is trans.

If someone spends enough time on FB to even notice a fleeting post about one of their contacts being TS, they probably live on that stupid site and it is not like you will have to talk to them in real life. Add to that the fact that most facebook zombies are too wrapped up in their own page. Things like posting yet more photos of their snot nose kids or whatever they entertain themselves with.

Out of the 2,000 "friends", maybe 50 will even see the post and maybe 5 will even care (for better or worse)

Living full time as anything means an actual life outside the web. What one needs to concentrate on is possible new social interaction with those you see in person on a regular basis.

No matter what someone does, social media should not be taking the place of a real life.

[Kimberly Kael]

I understand that strange feeling of being pseudo-stealth because I really don't know know for sure who knows and who doesn't. I'm pretty sure that's not the issue Melissa intended to address.

The way I see it, if someone's perception of you matches your gender identity then you're sufficiently "out" for 99.9% of all interactions. If anyone were to assume I was cisgender, male, or straight I'd happily let them know otherwise. I consider myself to be openly lesbian because I don't pretend otherwise and I'm perfectly happy to reference my wife when it's relevant, not because I've made sure every single person at my office knows I'm married to a woman. It sure doesn't mean I'm closeted with respect to my sexuality, either.

[Rianna Humble]

II work remotely - this isn't uncommon for software engineers. When the company handled my name & gender change - there was no big announcement. I was boy name / boy photo one day, and a week or so later, girl name / girl photo. I vanished.

There are 9000+ people where I work - I'm going on 16 years there. I'm employee #666. Even people who knew me and deal with me regularly just thought I'd quit or died or something. (There are a lot of people like that.) They have no idea who this " Paula" is who answers their emails, until I tell them, which I do without fail. Every couple of weeks, I repeat this exercise.

So am I out at work? I have no idea

I'm sorry, Paula, this is a phoney dichotomy. I work for a company that has several thousand employees and have not made the announcement to each individual employee. The fact is that for the company, I am Rianna - not my dead-name. Any employee from any office of my company in any country in the world who needs to deal with me deals with Rianna whether I have previously spoken to them or not. A non-negligible number of those employees would have known me before my transition, that is irrelevant I am no longer that person.

I am out at work and so are you.

[Cindy J Angel]

Ok it has taken me two days to read all on both threads. For one thing I am more in then out wife knows VA knows, I went to transition just to g d dam scared to This is big BIG. I can not go back to the CD side sorry. Do I cross dress yes aver time my wife makes me change. Man up as she puts it. I don't leave town to dress. Unless I am going to condo in VA Beach. All my Neighbors have talk to Cindy. U can not hide in a condo. If I'm asked I tell them I'm ts and this is me. been Ask two times one was mech. Other One Was a friend sill c both.

I come here to learn, if the poster is not true as to or who she is its not a help to me. It not all ways rainbow and unicorns.
I'm married and I read the girls post that r married and say they are making it work.
I have been here a long time but post count is not high. I don't live my life on cd.com
I read I learn I try repeat. I cry for my friends on here and for me. At times I have to leave the forum I just now started to Come back on line.
and it must be the the right time because I went to take the next step. What aver it is. This side of the forum needs to stay on Topic Related to ts. Why Is it so hard to be ture to your self even I lie to me. Love c indy

[Badtranny]

Why Is it so hard to be ture to your self even I lie to me. Love c indy

Because we've been lying for as long as we can remember.

I didn't decide to come out just because I couldn't stand looking like a "dude" anymore. That was certainly part of it, but I think the more compelling feeling was being disgusted with myself for being a damn liar and a closet case.

Lies begat more lies and I'd been lying for so many years that I was starting to confuse lies with the truth. I didn't like who I was and I hated who I was becoming.

People come in here and lie because it's all they know. A lifetime of hiding from the truth will do that to you.

[MissDanielle]

Because we've been lying for as long as we can remember.
That would be me from middle school all the way up through the start of November when I finally begin to come to terms. To top everything off, I finally came to terms on Wednesday with being interested in guys. Part of me knew a long time ago but I just was never ready to accept it because I didn't want to come off as different.

I'm finally at peace now that this is who I am. This long and maybe bumpy journey will finally really begin next month when I see the doctor after moving.

I'm done lying and repressing. I just have to hide for just about another month.

[Brianna_H]

I am so glad for the honesty and variety of discussions here. I have not been active in a while, but when I was first figuring things out, it was vital. I thought Melissa was kinda mean, but now that I'm living as my true-self-24/7-don't-give-a-crap-who-knows I'm glad I read her posts and Rianna's experiences, and so many others.

Honesty... yes, please.

I work in the construction industry, too, but in the office. I can't imagine what it would be like to work among the very macho project manager field and transition. Mad props.

My transition has been/is pretty damn easy so far. And I have no one to thank for that but all the ladies who've come before and woke the world up with their honesty.

Sorry I'm not adding much to the discussion, but I agree with Melissa's desire for honesty and Zooey's idea of being out.

[pamela7]

Coming out to anyone is a matter of deciding to share something that was formerly a secret. I'm not sure how anyone can keep a secret from themselves so it just doesn't apply in the same way. Learning to accept who we are is an interesting and distinct process, but it's not the same thing at all.

What Melissa is talking about is a third thing: honestly representing to people here what your life experience is. It's not a question of coming out to people here, but in being transparent about what your life is like. The whole point of sharing here should be so others can learn from your experience. If the experience is misrepresented it undermines that goal.

What you say is true Kimberly, and maybe only for late-onset folk, like myself, a lifetime of hiding who you really are takes some admitting. Once that is fully done there's no problem telling anyone else. My point is really that one reason a person might not tell others is because it means admitting it to themselves or reveals doubts within.
I'm booked to see the dr now (about entering the formal UK transitioning process), my facebook page (Steven Saunders - the name i'm going to be leaving) has had pictures of me dressed since September, and this week i posted a full pic which sent some shockwaves in my wider social world. Apparently this is not enough for some people, yet we're all on different paths with different destinations.