Revoking my trans identity - it doesn't belong to me anymore

[jenni_xx]

Hey all

Recently I created a thread entitled "Is the world today leaving us here behind", in which a lot of posters here contributed to. I was criticised, both within the thread itself and in private messages, for this thread.

I created that thread because, as someone who identifies as transgender, and thus has an obvious vested interest in any trans-related reporting, I was becoming concerned with a perceived back-lash that had seemingly sprung up in response to the many trans-related stories that were adorning the media. So much so, that a "meme" (of sorts) has resulted from this. Namely "trans-peak" - whereby people post their thoughts/feelings, and come from the perspective of, to paraphrase "I was ok with trans, but now it has become too much, and now I've reached my own personal peak, and now I'm not ok with it anymore".


It's now approximately one month since I posted that thread. And things, for me personally, have gotten a lot worse.

To give you a bit of background into why, before I proceed with the reason for creating this thread...

I am out. All my friends and family know. I was rejected by many, and accepted by few, and it was those that accepted me that I clung to, who helped me overcome the loss of others (friends, as family). I'm also gay. I came out as gay long after coming out as trans, and (this is only my own experience), more people accepted me for being gay than they did for being trans. Interestingly, some who didn't accept me as being trans finally did AFTER I came out as gay. Take from that what you will. (I certainly did.)

Anyway, recently I've spent some time searching the net, finding forums, reading (lurking) the thoughts of others. This is coupled with (occasionally) posting on here. And it's led me to (for me) an inescapable conclusion.

I can no longer identify with the trans community. I simply do not like what it has become. I do not agree with the trans-activists who have become so vocal. I do not agree with the way children, who when expressing a preference for toys, colours, or clothing, are being identified as trans (when in the past they were referred to as tom-boys, or girly-boys (note the use of the word "boy" in both scenarios), many of whom who went through such actually ended up not being trans at all.

I don't like the way kids today are being bracketed, labelled, and encouraged down a specific path, instead of being simply allowed to explore themselves and simply enjoy what they want to, at a specific time (childhood) without being labelled or identified in any way that could end up having a life-long consequence for them.

(That, funnily enough, was one of the reasons why I posted my previous thread. I couldn't help but feel that if I was born today, I would end up being a teenager on hormone blockers, set in concrete into a specific category, a category that doesn't include the word term "crossdresser" (which is what I actually am). I would have been identified as a boy who wanted to BE a girl, instead of being identified as a boy who simply wanted to WEAR the same clothes that girls did!)

I can not relate to the individuals who are being put forth as being spokespeople for the trans-community. I am tempted to name individuals at this point, but I'll refrain from doing so, in order to avoid offending any one here.

And I can not abide, after expressing my own thoughts and opinions, in places that I thought would be accepting of me and at the least value my opinion, even if they didn't agree with it, being told that I have to temper my own approach - which simply put equates to being told I have to temper myself if I want to "fit in".

So for all of these reasons, I no longer want to be any part of this community. Because this community no longer represents or reflects who I am.

[Pat]

Let me suggest that you've fallen into a trap of letting being transgender define you rather than describe you. When you let it define you then you have to "follow the rules" you have to align to the expectations, you have duties and commitments. But that's not what being transgender is. You are an individual with your own views and experiences. You can also say of yourself that you are a transgender individual -- nothing about your views or experiences has to change because of that. "Discovering" that principle cleared a lot of angst for me. I hope it can for you too.

[jenni_xx]

Thanks for your reply Jennie-cd

Let me put it this way.

I am an individual, with my own views and experiences. My views and experiences do not equate to the views and experiences of the trans-community. Ergo, I no longer identify with the trans-community. That doesn't mean that I don't regard myself as trans. It simply means that I no longer have, or want, any affiliation with the trans community. That community no longer speaks to me, or for me.

[suzanne]

First of all, I hope you find peace of mind, wherever you end up. That seems to be what most of the people you are leaving behind are seeking.

What seems to be happening in the world around us is an attempt to understand all the types of gender and serial identities that have come to light. The world does this by categorizing. Unfortunately, no one fits neatly into any one category. We are who we are; unique. Parts of us fit one box or another, but not completely. Moreover, we are also at different points in our personal journeys, which may be more similar than first appears. I now treasure this diversity in a way I didn't earlier in my life.

It is ironic that some participants in this forum seem to be saying "This is what a crossdresser is, or isn't" in a way that seems to invalidate an alternate viewpoint. Everyone here has felt the sting of the bi -gendered world's condemnation and want to find inclusiveness. To then turn on another and knock them for being different is incomprehensible. All in all, I find more positives here than negatives.

[pamela7]

Good luck Jennie, i think you touch on deeper problems in society here. xxx Pamela

[Shelly Preston]

Jenni

The trouble is the trans community is so diverse. Almost anything that gets said someone will have an issue with. Caitlyn Jenner is a good example. She has undoubtedly raised the profile of transgender issues but not everyone agrees with how she did it or what she says.

You can still be part of the community and an individual too.

[jenni_xx]

It is ironic that some participants in this forum seem to be saying "This is what a crossdresser is, or isn't" in a way that seems to invalidate an alternate viewpoint.

I don't necessarily think this is a slight on this forum in particular (at least, not from what I've seen), but I completely agree with the intent behind your comment here. If some in this forum are doing that, then shame on them. I have no time for that at all.

To expand on your point, I don't even know what the word "gender" means any more. I've heard the comment "gender is a social construct" too many times to mention, that when I see it mentioned again I roll my eyes. Yet I do so without giving it much thought. Then I did think about it. And that led me to thinking...

...If gender is a social construct, then it only has meaning in a social context. If Society deems "pink" for boys and "blue" for girls, then would male crossdressers be more attracted to blue rather than pink, just because "society says so"?

I banged my head against a wall trying to wrap my (now bruised) head around this idea. I've read posts on here saying how men in the 17th century wore heels, make-up, wigs, presuming to myself that the intent behind such sentiments was that it's ok for men to wear heels, make-up, wigs, 300 years later. But then I thought, if that was indeed the case, then would the male crossdressers of today be wanting to wear heels, make-up, and wigs?

Or would the male cross-dressers of today wanting to be wearing the female garb of today, irrespective of how drab it was or wasn't? They would just be attracted to it because it was more associated with what women wore?

I'm struggling to wrap my head around that to be honest.

Could it be that male crossdressers are attracted to female things, in order to express a female identity that ultimately distances themselves from the pressures that society puts upon men within that society? That is, it becomes an escape from themselves?

The only mind one can never escape from is their own. Is THAT the reason/rationale behind all of this? Which maybe would suggest that the one thing that binds crossdressers together is a sensitivity that enables us to see the world, or rather want to see the world in which we live from a different point of view?

I'm sorry, I'm rambling, it's just that I can't help myself from thinking about such things!

[Tracii G]

I will go out on a limb here and say I feel a lot like you do jenni.
I really have a problem with some that are in activist mode all the time and try to force their agenda on me. I'm a firm believer in you do your thing I'll do mine and leave me alone.
There have been many on other sites that bash me for my views and say I need to be one thing or another and to them I say you have no right to tell me what or what not to do.One said I was not femme enough and I should quit trying to be trans WTH? This girl was 18 and a total activist and I told her I have been trans longer than she has been alive and that started a poo storm.
I was told to lower my rhetoric and be more accepting. OMG I accept everyone until they step on my toes then I will say what needs to be said.
Bashed for being conservative because all TG"s have to fit the liberal dogma and be a left wing type.Sorry thats not going to happen anytime soon LOL.
One gay site where a member said I wasn't gay enough to be a forum member WTH again ???
I give up on so many sites because I am what I am and that doesn't fit their mold so I don't seem welcome there.
That really shows the trans movement is full of haters too.
The more I hear gender binary or social construct it makes me want to hurl.LOL

[flatlander_48]

I can no longer identify with the trans community.

I assume you are clear that one's identity is separate from the community?


I simply do not like what it has become. I do not agree with the trans-activists who have become so vocal.

In another thread, I might have said "Well behaved women seldom make history.". People becoming local just has to happen. Public opinion, and subsequently laws, don't change with silence. I believe it was ACT-UP that coined the phrase "Silence = Death". Things NEVER move quickly enough, but they would move even slower without people being vocal. For example, if people were not vocal, would we have Marriage Equality now? Remember that people have been working on that issue for decades.


I do not agree with the way children, who when expressing a preference for toys, colours, or clothing, are being identified as trans (when in the past they were referred to as tom-boys, or girly-boys (note the use of the word "boy" in both scenarios), many of whom who went through such actually ended up not being trans at all.

Unless we have intimate details of many different situations, I don't see how any of us can make a definitive statement. I am a parent, although mine are beyond "kids" at 40 and 34. I would not make such a move unless I was quite certain that was what needed to happen. I assume that would be the case for the majority of parents. There are also legalities involved in that doctors cannot prescribe drugs without sound medical reasons. Your statement "...many of whom who went through such actually ended up not being trans at all." sounds anecdotal. If you can back that up with statistics or definitive statements by well-respected medical personnel, please do so. Otherwise it's basically spurious text.

DeeAnn

[jenni_xx]

Jenni

The trouble is the trans community is so diverse. Almost anything that gets said someone will have an issue with. Caitlyn Jenner is a good example. She has undoubtedly raised the profile of transgender issues but not everyone agrees with how she did it or what she says.

You can still be part of the community and an individual too.

Caitlyn Jenner is a joke to me. As far removed from society and no clue about how society operates as one can be. It saddens me that such a person can raise the profile of any community, while being so distant from it. I have no time for her at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Tracii G

Thank you so much for your comment. You have hit the nail on the head for me.

What you have wrote, and what I am hinting at, is essentially about an inability of others who, while striving to make the "mainstream" accept diversity, are themselves unwilling to let diversity in.

[Rachael Leigh]

I really see your point in many areas here jenni, I agree that many will not always fall in line on the agenda others have, gender is so much of a mystery in many ways and I guess we see a lot of different ways its expressed.
To me male and female are the born identities we have based on our organs and to some extent DNA but as we all know gender identity can be very different and for me I still get confused over all the research, so to your point we all must decide where we fit and what we choose to support, this site has always shown an openess to many different people and expressions and Im greatful for that.

[Tracii G]

This site has always been the best trans site because its all inclusive.
Other sites seem to be focused on the porn/fetish side.

[jenni_xx]

I assume you are clear that one's identity is separate from the community?

Yes of course I am clear about that. I assume however you are clear that in such a community, it is all to easy to bracket people as being one and the same?



In another thread, I might have said "Well behaved women seldom make history.". People becoming local just has to happen. Public opinion, and subsequently laws, don't change with silence. I believe it was ACT-UP that coined the phrase "Silence = Death". Things NEVER move quickly enough, but they would move even slower without people being vocal. For example, if people were not vocal, would we have Marriage Equality now? Remember that people have been working on that issue for decades.

To which I would simply respond - the loudest voice does not speak for me. I refer you to your earlier comment about identity being separate from community. The only person who can truly speak for you is yourself.


Your statement "...many of whom who went through such actually ended up not being trans at all." sounds anecdotal. If you can back that up with statistics or definitive statements by well-respected medical personnel, please do so. Otherwise it's basically spurious text.

Have you ever seen a teenage girl go through a tom-boy stage in her childhood? Have you ever met an effeminate male who isn't gay or who doesn't want to be a woman? How can you seriously reduce my comment here to "spurious text"?

[Alice Torn]

jenni_xx, I feel a lot the same way, being an extreme individualist loner that i am. I cannot stand anyone left or right, or in between, putting me into a box! Some of us havw so many sidw to us, that only "complex person" seems to fit! As for kids, I have never been a dad, and cannot imagine putting them in a box for life. Most of us are pretty complex, and i would guess most here agree to some extent.

[Tracii G]

I'm all for kids being kids and deciding what they like to play with.Most will grow out of things because they have so many phases they go thru.
To box a kid up just seems wrong to me.I think a lot of parents read too much into things a kid does and won't let them just be kids.

[Sarah-RT]

Box's can be troublesome I'll agree. There really is no answer on them as everyone is different. Non binary people hate box's as they identify as all or neither depending. Then like myself I only want to be in a box, when I dress I identify as female and only wish to be in that box. Transitioners I assume are the same in that regard.
For those discovering themselves box's can help, I found when I began to realise what I was doing was out of the ordinary clinged to the word crossdresser because it was something, it helped explain that was I was doing was a thing and I wasn't entirely weird but I don't associate with the definition of it anymore.

I can agree when you say some are too vocal, I wouldn't critique that they are vocal but simply more vocal than I would be or believe things should be a certain way. I've encountered it here and I've seen it in person. I know gay people who dislike the overly vocal in their part of the LGBT community but freedom of speech and all that.

It's perfectly fine not to agree with what everyone else is saying, you conclude that you are trans but disillusioned with the community and there is nothing wrong with that. If you can accept what you are and carry on without the need to connect with similar people that isn't a problem, that's your choice.

[flatlander_48]

I assume however you are clear that in such a community, it is all to easy to bracket people as being one and the same?

No. Being part of a community or supporting a community does NOT mean that everyone is exactly the same. It is ludicrous to think so. However, what you will find is that people will want to claim that because of some ulterior motive. Restroom access by transgender people is a case in point. In order to highlight this issue, people claim that their concern is having women attacked by males pretending to be females. That casts an aspersion on the ENTIRE transgender M2F population, and not unintentionally. By that logic do we assume that EVERY male is a rapist?


To which I would simply respond - the loudest voice does not speak for me. I refer you to your earlier comment about identity being separate from community. The only person who can truly speak for you is yourself.

In recent times my soon to be former employer (I am in the process of retiring) added transgender health benefits to the program. Last year the total coverage amount was raised. For 12 years I was a part of the LGBT employee resource group. We put the issue in front of corporate management and continued to do so in spite of the fact that NONE of us (current members) would benefit, including me as I have no plans to transition. By your statement, since not of us could speak to that issue, I guess it wouldn't/shouldn't have happened. Is that what you want? Or, perhaps if the group doesn't speak for you, any gains that are made should not be applied to you? That would seem fair.

So, at some point you do have to speak collectively, even if it isn't the particular constituency. How would you expect change to happen? The thing is, regarding social issues if people don't speak up, NOTHING happens. The same was true for the Women's Movement, the Civil Rights Movement, the Gay Rights Movement, et al. If progress was so easy, it would happen by itself, but it never seems to work that way. On more than one occasion people complained exactly as you have about some group being too strident, too In Your Face, etc. But, those did see success and it would NOT have happened without people being willing to speak up. I've been around for all 3 and what I said is exactly how it worked.


Have you ever seen a teenage girl go through a tom-boy stage in her childhood? Have you ever met an effeminate male who isn't gay or who doesn't want to be a woman? How can you seriously reduce my comment here to "spurious text"?

One data point doesn't mean much. It doesn't speak to probabilities, trends; nothing. It can't. You cannot drive change on a handful, or less, of data points. That doesn't really have anything to do with your opinion. The only thing I'm trying to get at is whether it is based on reall, verifiable information or is it just rhetoric.

DeeAnn

[OCCarly]

Jenni, you have to walk your own path. No one can do that for you. If you do not like the transgender label, then don't wear it. If you do not want to be categorized, then don't be. And maybe hormone blockers and a childhood transition would not have been the thing for you. But they most assuredly would have been the right thing for me. I know myself well enough and have been struggling with myself long enough to know for a certainty that I need to have a feminine face and body. Not want, need. To keep my blood pressure down. To stop the panic attacks. To keep me sane, alive and healthy.

It's funny. I come to this forum specifically because it is an island of sanity in the middle of a maelstrom of shifting politics, attitudes, and ideas. The population here is mostly older, established, and long on sanity and wisdom and I like it here for those reasons. I hope you will reconsider leaving us.

[reb.femme]

...I really have a problem with some that are in activist mode all the time and try to force their agenda on me. I'm a firm believer in you do your thing I'll do mine and leave me alone...

Hi Jenni,

Very much what Tracii said. I get fed up with the wild campaigners affiliated to my social circle and their mad at times, rantings and leftist political rhetoric. But, what I do is let them get on with it and ignore heavily. Life is too short to be constantly angry.



...One gay site where a member said I wasn't gay enough to be a forum member WTH again ???...

Obviously only a four or lower on a scale of one to ten Tracii :heehee:. As per Tracii's response, think WTF and move on. I am a crossdresser and therefore by standard the descriptor, transgender. So, as Jennie-cd said, it describes you but does not define you, it's how it is for me. Let it be your mantra! I am me and I am unique, thank the lord for that says my wife.

[susan54]

There is a certain accuracy in this allegation- there are people on this site who seem to insist on certain behaviour in others. For examle there are those who say you HAVE to dress to blend in or you HAVE to wear women's trousers or you are not being serious. Just accept we are all different and do what WE want to do. I like to wear women's outfits based on skirts and dresses. I like to look good in these clothes and this includes a bra and forms. If I say that doesn't make me transgender then it doesn't. It is just ACTING. I only identify as male.

A little more acceptance of variation would not go amiss. This only applies to a small number of people on here - please accept we are all different.

[lynnef]

There is a certain accuracy in this allegation- there are people on this site who seem to insist on certain behaviour in others. For examle there are those who say you HAVE to dress to blend in or you HAVE to wear women's trousers or you are not being serious. Just accept we are all different and do what WE want to do. I like to wear women's outfits based on skirts and dresses. I like to look good in these clothes and this includes a bra and forms. If I say that doesn't make me transgender then it doesn't. It is just ACTING. I only identify as male.

A little more acceptance of variation would not go amiss. This only applies to a small number of people on here - please accept we are all different.


I've noticed this myself a few times,
when I post pictures, on occasion i've been asked why I don't use makeup or wear jewelry/etc... now there are people who do wear lots of makeup and jewelry, which is of course their choice, and many look rather nice with it, i just don't want to deal with it, plus I woudn't know how anyways.... (i'm also not going to be the first woman in my direct family to wear makeup :P )

yes, we *are* all different, we are different ages, situations, and also in different places on the gender/sexuality continuum (sp?) for example, I'm a homoromantic(attracted to women), grey-asexual (not for sex necessarily), non-op transgender woman (self-explanatory :P), does that make me less valid than a person who may be my opposite? nope. just different, and different is good, otherwise everything would be (valley girl) Sooooo BoooooorrrriIIInnnngggg. (/valley girl)

so no, i don't think there's any need to revoke your Transcard(tm), as only you can define it :)

[jenni_xx]

No. Being part of a community or supporting a community does NOT mean that everyone is exactly the same. It is ludicrous to think so. However, what you will find is that people will want to claim that because of some ulterior motive. Restroom access by transgender people is a case in point. In order to highlight this issue, people claim that their concern is having women attacked by males pretending to be females. That casts an aspersion on the ENTIRE transgender M2F population, and not unintentionally. By that logic do we assume that EVERY male is a rapist?

I didn't say that it was. Why you have chosen to mention a particular (important) issue in response I don't quite understand. What you have mentioned here is not what I am talking about. That is a specific issue, that does need to be addressed, but it doesn't need to be addressed to me, in respect of my response to you. My point was clear: while it is all too easy to bracket people as being one and the same, this is CLEARLY NOT the case. Your response is to seemingly agree with this. Thus you seem to be arguing against my point while making the exact same point I am intent on making. In this respect, I don't understand why you have chosen to respond to me in the manner that you have.

Oh, but then, hang on a moment, in the very same post of yours, you go on to say the following: "at some point you do have to speak collectively". Which drives exactly at the heart of what I am actually arguing against. I say, no, I don't have to speak collectively. The only way *I* could speak collectively, or rather have my voice heard *collectively* and agreed with *collectively* is if the community to which I am speaking about agree with what I am saying *collectively*.

Yet that is completely at odds to what I was actually trying to say when I created this post. My point is that how I feel DOES NOT equate to the collective voice. And it's for that reason that I don't want this collective voice to speak for me. For they do not represent who I am. And it's for this reason that, because I, as a single person, can not change that collective voice, then I have chosen to distance myself from that collective. They do not speak for me, so therefore I am not part of them.



One data point doesn't mean much. It doesn't speak to probabilities, trends; nothing. It can't.

Yet you have chosen to use one example to make your point (when you talked about YOUR experience with your "soon to be former employer".

Nonetheless, I asked a question "have you ever seen" - to which you didn't respond by saying yes you have or no you haven't. Go back and read my question again, and this time please, try to answer directly. I can cite several examples of this, but they are all anecdotal - admittedly - yet they are still examples that are widespread and common - hence why they have become a stereotype with their OWN identification - eg, tom boy, girly boy, effeminate, etc etc. These are real examples that happen and occur all the time and to deny them is to be ignorant of the truth. What is important is, not to deny that such exists (for they do), but to try and understand why such identities exist. For that is to get to the heart of the matter.

[Krisi]

I know the word "community" gets thrown around quite a bit. "African American community", gay community, transsexual community, etc. Personally, I think it's a crock. "Community" to me means a neighborhood, not a bunch of people from all over the country or all over the world. There's no way every black person, every gay person or every transsexual person feels the same about everything. It's just a way of trying to justify or amplify an agenda.

I don't feel like I am a member of any "community" except for the one I live in.

[jenni_xx]

I know the word "community" gets thrown around quite a bit. "African American community", gay community, transsexual community, etc. Personally, I think it's a crock. "Community" to me means a neighborhood, not a bunch of people from all over the country or all over the world. There's no way every black person, every gay person or every transsexual person feels the same about everything. It's just a way of trying to justify or amplify an agenda.

I don't feel like I am a member of any "community" except for the one I live in.

That's just one definition of the word of the word community. That is "a group of people living in the same place"

The other definition being: "having a particular characteristic in common"

One doesn't necessarily exclude the other, nor is one dependent upon the other. Both have equal meaning, and in turn, equal value. To dismiss one as "crock", while adhering to the other, is just, well, silly.

While you correctly state that there's "no way every black person, every gay person... feels the same about everything", there's also no way that people who live in the same area feel the same about everything either. Yet you ascribe value to one, while dismissing the other as "a crock".

[Kate T]

....I've heard the comment "gender is a social construct" too many times to mention, that when I see it mentioned again I roll my eyes. Yet I do so without giving it much thought. Then I did think about it. And that led me to thinking...

...If gender is a social construct, then it only has meaning in a social context. If Society deems "pink" for boys and "blue" for girls, then would male crossdressers be more attracted to blue rather than pink, just because "society says so"?

I banged my head against a wall trying to wrap my (now bruised) head around this idea. I've read posts on here saying how men in the 17th century wore heels, make-up, wigs, presuming to myself that the intent behind such sentiments was that it's ok for men to wear heels, make-up, wigs, 300 years later. But then I thought, if that was indeed the case, then would the male crossdressers of today be wanting to wear heels, make-up, and wigs?


Gender is not a social construct. Gender is real. Otherwise TS'ism would not exist. Gender EXPRESSION is socially constructed and dependent at times.


Caitlyn Jenner is a joke to me. As far removed from society and no clue about how society operates as one can be. It saddens me that such a person can raise the profile of any community, while being so distant from it. I have no time for her at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Tracii G

Thank you so much for your comment. You have hit the nail on the head for me.

What you have wrote, and what I am hinting at, is essentially about an inability of others who, while striving to make the "mainstream" accept diversity, are themselves unwilling to let diversity in.

Reread your entire post above carefully Jenni and beware of the insidious bigotry that can infect us very easily. You want to claim true diversity and rail against apparent (and sometimes real) prejudices, but in the same breath will happily exclude someone who has done nothing other than try to be herself and understand herself the way she feels best and present that to others.

[jenni_xx]

Kate T

Re "Gender is a social construct" comment. Like I say, I roll my eyes when I see it mentioned. Playing devil's advocate here, those who say this would seemingly counter your comment by saying you're not referring to gender, but to biological sex.

I, personally, don't know where I stand on this particular issue. I've read some very convincing arguments both for and against, but it does seem to boil down to how the word "gender" is, not so much defined, but rather interpreted. I do feel that people who engage in such a debate are arguing the same point, but from a different perception as to what the word is meant to convey. For example, some have a problem with trans women being identified as female but not being identified as women. Others however have a problem with trans women being called women at all. It's a linguistic minefield, or so it seems!

Re your comment about Caitlyn Jenner. Firstly, it's not that I'm wanting to claim "true diversity". It's that I no longer feel that I can relate to how people both within and outside of the trans "community" (sorry Krissi) are (for want of a better word) defining transgendered people. I simply can not relate anymore. So I'm looking inward, towards myself, and instead of trying to change or "rail against "prejudices"", I'm instead asking myself, maybe I'm not trans at all - if I can't relate to any perceived understanding or definition of what the word means, then maybe that's because the word and it's meaning has no value to me. So I like to wear women's clothing? Well, apparently, there are people who are now saying that that doesn't even equate to being "transgender". Rather it simply equates to being "gender fluid".

In respect to Caitlyn Jenner - if regarding her as a joke, as a person who is removed from society, makes me a guilty of bigotry, then I'm guilty of bigotry. That said, what I can't abide is the pedastal that Caitlyn resides. Just as, I presume, many many women can't abide Kim Kardashian et al. Does that make such women bigots against women? If I am a bigot for not liking Caitlyn Jenner for "being herself", then women the world over are bigots for not liking Kim K for "being herself" either.

With all due respect, I don't have to carefully re-read what I wrote. I know exactly what I am getting at. If you think that makes me a bigot at worst, or hypocritical at least, then so be it.

[Katey888]

Hello again Jenni... :)

Well done for thinking hard after New Year and giving us further thinkers something to chew on! :)

There are some good points already, a couple I think are worth highlighting:

It is ironic that some participants in this forum seem to be saying "This is what a crossdresser is, or isn't" in a way that seems to invalidate an alternate viewpoint. Everyone here has felt the sting of the bi -gendered world's condemnation and want to find inclusiveness. To then turn on another and knock them for being different is incomprehensible. All in all, I find more positives here than negatives.

Incomprehensible is the right word, Suzanne - but then when you realise that there aren't any selection criteria to come here and post, it's not really surprising that we're burdened with a bigoted minority the same as the real world is. Some of this comes down to insecurity - a lot of folk seem worried that being TS, gay/bi or both is contagious and can be caught via the interwebs... how silly. Or it may be that they justifiably fear that this might play on the minds of their presently accepting wives and be a catalyst for non-acceptance or worse - regardless: it doesn't warrant bullying people into any mode of expression or behaviour just because it better suits their circumstance. Difference is widespread here - we should not just accept it; we should celebrate our diversity. (BTW Suzanne - you should post more here!:))

Jenni - an interesting start - I picked out this segment from a later post that speaks to me:


Could it be that male crossdressers are attracted to female things, in order to express a female identity that ultimately distances themselves from the pressures that society puts upon men within that society? That is, it becomes an escape from themselves?

The only mind one can never escape from is their own. Is THAT the reason/rationale behind all of this? Which maybe would suggest that the one thing that binds crossdressers together is a sensitivity that enables us to see the world, or rather want to see the world in which we live from a different point of view?


I think this is part of it - and coming to your OP might be why the trans-activist part of the community doesn't speak for you? I think it would be fair to say that most trans-activism is focused on enabling rights for TS folk related to healthcare, employment, benefits, awareness, etc. I don't think this should be surprising as in our rather broad community, they are the ones that are most burdened by their condition, and where society and the organs of state need to change to recognise and support them. Like you, I don't feel that their activism supports me in any practical way or represents me and what I need, but it does represent my belief that in a fully fair and decent, democratic society, we should have the right representation and protection of minorities within that society that gives them access to the same rights and services that everyone have, even where that support is specific to their needs.

I don't wake up in the morning and feel part of this community in a way that I either benefit practically or feel the need to have something changed that would protect my trans* nature, but I can choose to add my voice and presence to that community, in order that some good will come of being in a community with one more countable head than otherwise. I'm trying to think of a metaphor for this and (with deference to the UK GGs here) the Women's suffragette movement is one that springs to mind. A few strongly minded and committed activists were necessary to voice the demands and take action to force the changes - I'm sure they weren't supported by every woman in the country, nor did they represent every voice, but the nature of society is that we do concede some of our individuality in order to benefit from being recognised as part of a group.

You don't have to feel that every day, and as far as feeling that some in this community are less open-minded than we'd like, you also don't have to read or comprehend what the idiots think and write here - just ignore it... :) Spare a thought for me and the other mods, as we have to go through it whether we like it or not! :lol:

I'm interested what you had to say about being accepted as trans once you had identified as gay - that kinda reinforces the truth that stereotypes remain strong in the outside world, and the apparently confusing conflict of a hetero male wanting to present as a female remains more challenging to the muggles than accepting that gender presentation has nothing to do with sexuality. I can understand that too, but that is where the benefit of more awareness comes in as the world becomes more aware of trans* folk in general and that their sexuality is as diverse as the vanilla world.

Thought provoking... :thinking:

Katey x

[marshalynn]

Jenni-xx ,I think you are happy making your own problems, feel sorry for you, good luck and good by. Marshalynn

[mykell]

hi jenni,
there are more positives than negatives, examples of both here already,
for the most part like anything in life is you get out of it what you put into it....but this being the interweb you have to take things from where they come from.

each member has theyre own personality and priority, some share only to further theyre cause, some to help selflessly, nudge a total stranger to come to terms with theyre perceived isolation or persecution, good vs evil and what-not.

so if you leave im sure you will be missed, if you stay you may be surprised, even though some dont agree we are ALL in this together, some are just better soldiers than others....some topics are more interesting than others.....some members can put theyre thoughts down better than others....but we have a common quirk that binds us together no matter where we travel on the spectrum.....were gender non-conforming and were making progress.... a snails pace perhaps....

as for the puberty blockers, i sit with lots of teens and parents in my support group....theyre doctors are not passing out these drugs like doctors spouting out way too many prescriptions for Ritalin, and when you see a childs smile when they share that they just started theyre blockers with us in the group, its undeniable that the right choice was made, i just dont think deep down a parent would be allowed to make a johnny into a jane if the soul of that child doesnt match....

[Tracii G]

I see another thread where a person lets their opinion and feelings out only to get jumped on by the social justice warrior types.
She said her peace so leave it at that and let her be her.
Arguing among ourselves is not productive.

[Dana44]

I see your point Jennie. I came to this thread not really knowing how I fit into the trans environment and what my issues were. This thread actually helped me put things in perspective. Of course there are the naysayers and encouragers but in any place where you have more than a dozen people you will get that. Also many of us have identified our sexual preferences. Even if you are gay, this trans community is a stable area where one can find answers. Whether they like those answers is another subject in itself.

[Tracii G]

Its funny when I came out and said I was gay there were several ladies here that stopped even talking to me.

[JanePeterson]

The only tie that binds us here is a bit of gender confusion... The rest of life has shaped who we are in 100 other different ways a it's no surprise to me that significant friction exists between us, as we're as different as can be. The question in my mind is... What actually DOES ties us together?

[JessMe]

Jenni,
Who and what we are "is what it is." Based on our own feelings and experience in this crazy life. Identifying or not identifying with a particular group or label is our choice. ...I'm going to try to tread carefully here (so as not to be political), but if the mods don't approve, then I expect them to do what they do. Think about it in broader terms: I'm white. I'm from the south. ...does that automatically mean that I'm somehow predisposed to burning crosses and lynching minorities? NOPE. Sure: I'm a white southerner, and I identify as such, but that's where it ends. Within almost every group, there exists a "bell curve"... and more often than not, you'll find that those you identify most closely with are somewhere in the middle. I guess what I'm saying is that your decision is just that. And it should be respected... but it should also be considered on a deeper and more conscious level. ...just my $.02. Keep the change.

[Tracii G]

JessMe get ready to be called everything but a milk cow.LOL

[Rachelakld]

My thoughts - transgender means not locked in to the binary gender system

There are more stories of children being allowed to live the way they "currently" feel, rather than being having negative lables such as sissyboy.
The adults really are trying their best to accomodate their children (and break the old trend of "manning boys up"), and to allow the world to undrestand what the child and family are going through and thus make the world safer for their children - don't we all want that?

Just the way the gays of the 80's were labled as Heroes - as when they came out and became role models to others who may have otherwise committed self harm.

[heatherdress]

Jenni - I feel for your frustration. I know I cannot understand your search for identity and a place to fit in. One belief I have about this site, or community, it does not represent or reflect anyone. It is a forum of so many different personalities, ideals, behaviors. Maybe you expect too much from such a diverse group. We have in common that we wear women's clothing but the commonality starts to end there. That's why differences of opinion are common and must be respected. I hope you do not leave this community. Everyone is important here - everyone. Your self-discovery journey through life is your own adventure and I hope you find peace, happiness and acceptance. But you are not the only one who does not have all the answers, or who feels rejected or who does not like the way society treats those of us who are different.

Maybe you should reconsider and continue being a member of this site. We need each other. We need you.

[flatlander_48]

I didn't say that it was. Why you have chosen to mention a particular (important) issue in response I don't quite understand. What you have mentioned here is not what I am talking about. That is a specific issue, that does need to be addressed, but it doesn't need to be addressed to me, in respect of my response to you. My point was clear: while it is all too easy to bracket people as being one and the same, this is CLEARLY NOT the case.

No. It may be easy, but it is silly to do so. Anyone that would actually think about it would realize that there is considerable variance within ANY group. However, where this can happen is the example I cited. People often exaggerate in order to attempt to strengthen their point; ulterior motive as I pointed out. It is not unusual that transgender folks get slandered in this way as we're viewed as sort of a throwaway population. If people remain silent, who will counter erroneous (and in many cases purposefully so) statements? The media will not fix erroneous statements, not even their own. After all, remember these are the folks who morphed the term Transgender into something that it doesn't mean. So, who's left to point out misconceptions and bad information?


Oh, but then, hang on a moment, in the very same post of yours, you go on to say the following: "at some point you do have to speak collectively". Which drives exactly at the heart of what I am actually arguing against. I say, no, I don't have to speak collectively. The only way *I* could speak collectively, or rather have my voice heard *collectively* and agreed with *collectively* is if the community to which I am speaking about agree with what I am saying *collectively*.

So, you will change public perceptions and laws by yourself? Good luck with that! Further, Speaking Collectively does NOT mean unilateral agreement. When does that ever happen? What it does mean is that there are certain points with which people find sufficient comonality and agreement that they can to go forward. You want to build in an absolute and that is not how it works.


Yet that is completely at odds to what I was actually trying to say when I created this post. My point is that how I feel DOES NOT equate to the collective voice. And it's for that reason that I don't want this collective voice to speak for me.

So, as far as you are concerned, the plight of transgender people is just fine? I assume by Manchester that indicates Manchester in the UK as opposed to New Hampshire. I don't know the specifics in the UK, but here in the US, legal protections around Gender Expression are very uneven. Some places have those protections in place, but most do not. It is silly to expect that if people quit publicly advocating for those protections, they will magically appear on the books as laws.


Yet you have chosen to use one example to make your point (when you talked about YOUR experience with your "soon to be former employer".

That was to illustrate the relationship between Cause and Effect and the possibilities of how Events and Consequences may be connected.


Nonetheless, I asked a question "have you ever seen" - to which you didn't respond by saying yes you have or no you haven't. Go back and read my question again, and this time please, try to answer directly.

Of course I have seen those those kinds of situations, but I don't try to extrapolate them into a body of evidence. That is the difference.


I can cite several examples of this, but they are all anecdotal - admittedly - yet they are still examples that are widespread and common - hence why they have become a stereotype with their OWN identification - eg, tom boy, girly boy, effeminate, etc etc. These are real examples that happen and occur all the time and to deny them is to be ignorant of the truth. What is important is, not to deny that such exists (for they do), but to try and understand why such identities exist. For that is to get to the heart of the matter.

You sound like there is an epidemic of people deliberately upsetting the true nature of their children's gender identity and I don't believe that is the case. As I said above, within any group there is considerable variance. Statistically, some variations are more common than others. This is not a measure of validity one way or the other. It is just how things occur. Similarly, some people will be 5'-8" and others will be 6'-1". It's just how it happens.

So, your turn:

How do you expect change to happen if everyone remains silent in order to prevent backlast? How does that work exactly?

DeeAnn

[docrobbysherry]

Jenni, at one time, I felt a lot like u. It was just after I came out online here after 10 years of dressing in a complete vacuum.

At first, I was over joyed to find others "like me" here. I began posting about how dressing got me excited and turned on it. This was 8 years ago and I got my head handed to me quite often!:doh:
I soon realized I wasn't like others here. And, have only I've become more certain of it since then. :sad:

However, here's my suggestion to u: Do what I did next. After a number of personal PM's from members, I was intrigued with what CD/TS's were like in person. I began attending T conventions and have met countless dressers over the years. When u meet others, hear their stories, and experience their varied personalities? I believe u will feel as I do. We r NOT the same at all!:eek:

Many dressers spend their early years struggling with their "difference" from the vanillas. And, when they find others like themselves they may feel they have suddenly found where they belong, their community, their home. After all those difficult alone years, can u blame them? But, if u talk with them one on one, you'll find most r remarkably self aware folks with VERY different opinions in private. Often, quite different from what they may post here!

I'm not sure I even identify as trans anymore. And, I know I am quite different from other T's. But, I've come full circle and have come to realize how much I have in common with them/us! Go out and meet other dressers and see how u feel about trans then.:battingeyelashes:

I identify with Caitlyn, by the way. She wants to dress her way. And, neither wants to or pretends to represent the "community". Go ahead and dislike her for being a media attention w---e. But, NOT for being the, "Wrong kind of trans", just because she's doing it her way.:straightface:
I think we ALL do our own way.:D

[Tracii G]

CJ has her own way and nobody needs to stick their nose in her business.

[flatlander_48]

doc:

No matter how you slice it, you are one of a kind and I mean that as a sincere compliment. You're definitely the embodiment of Go Big or Go Home!

It's interesting that you have said at other times how you were not brave enough to go out without sherry's mask. On the other hand, I cannot imagine going out wearing a mask. Buried in there somewhere is a fascinating commentary on human nature and human perception. Beginning with what are probably similar desires, we wind up in very different places. Simply fascinating to me...

DeeAnn

[AmandaM]

I agree with this thread. There is a vocal element that will attack conservative thought. That's not very inclusive. Everyone is supposed to have a seat at the table, whether you like what they have to say or not.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

It seems odd to me that you invest so much in the opinions of some members that you feel you have to depart. The forum is a microcosm of life- there are many people in daily life who I choose not to hang out with- vast swathes of society: I don't do sports incl F1 (sorry Katey!), religion, pubs, social media, television, parenting, political voting; but I still have a social circle and a lovely wife, and I still get enormous pleasure and interest out of this forum, and a great part of the pleasure is in reading the thoughts of people who think differently to me.

Lighten up maybe? Don't take yourself and others so seriously? And if you've received pecks to the head from certain hens...well don't stick your head under their beaks. This is a playground, not a battlefield.

[Tina_gm]

I think Jennie cd said it quite well. Is being somewhere (regardless of where) on the spectrum is what should completely define us or describe us? Is it really all of what we are, or who we are? It is definitely part of it, but 1st and foremost we are just people. People who are in a pretty small minority. Most of us take actions like dressing in opposite gender clothing. We don't actually HAVE TO. For most of us it certainly helps us cope with our minority of gender feelings. Ultimately, regardless if we are casual cders, hardly ever dressing, or ts who have or are transitioning, it is an internal feeling. How we decide to cope with it is for ourselves and ourselves alone. Nothing we do or don't do is right or wrong.

We come here seeking the advice, help, console, encouragemental or just the company of those who are also in the minority. So often we are our own biggest obstacle. We take it too seriously, when for most of us, it really isn't life or death. In some cases of severe or extreme GD it can be. But for the majority of the people who post on the general mtf section, it isnt. It's about dealing with our minority and quality of life. Often, we are the most guilty of making it all too complicated, to serious, too scary, too difficult

[jeanieinabottle]

Hey Jenni,
I spent 50+ years of chaos and confusion, trying to put myself into a specific box in an effort to understand who and what I was. Being a doc and by my training and practice, I tried to define myself by precision, by trying to fit myself into a neat little package with no questions left unanswered. But it wasn’t until a little more than 6 years ago, that I finally found peace when, like being hit in the head by lightning (bad medically), I realized while I have similarities as well as differences with many others on this forum, that I am me and only I am me. I had previously tried so hard to find exactly where I fit that I only tended to get more muddled down by names and descriptions, what I should or shouldn’t do, and therefore lost sight of the forest because of the trees, ie. who I really was. Realizing now that I am an individual when I previously tried to group myself into some ill-defined “category” is what allows me now to enjoy who I am and therefore, ALL I am.

As can be seen by my very limited number of posts, I tend to be a casual but daily observer of the threads on this forum and raise my voice only when medical matters come into discussion because this is my domain and is fun, or, similarly to what I believe you feel, when people try to talk for me or tell me what I should do. But what is good for the goose is not always good for the gander (or maybe we should include or substitute “other goose” for gander on a technical basis.). I need to be me and speak for myself when I need to say something or fear losing the peace and individuality that I found and now enjoy. Opinions are tossed around freely. But they are only opinions based around specific sets of individual variables which often may not apply to me and I’ve learned to take them, as they should be, with a grain of salt. While I do think that communities do gain benefit from looking for similarities rather than differences (just look at the mess with the political situation here in the US when differences are emphasized and nothing gets accomplished), we still cannot lose our individuality, our identity, our autonomy and therefore our individual voice. So hopefully I might understand a good portion of what you feel. The most important thing for me is to be myself, find my own peace, whether with the help of others or by myself, speak for myself and no one else, and live life according to my vision, not someone else’s and wish for you the peace that I have found.
Peace.
Dr. J.

[barbara gordon]

Hi Jenni_xx
I hope that you do not leave this group.

it is really great that we have a forum like this, and its so valuable to find that there are lots of other people out there that can't fit into ordinary expectations of gender identity .

I have been searching the web since the mid 1990"s for anything and every thing to help me understand my own perspective about my own gender status .
My perspective changes from time to time . My body says that I am mostly male . But My brain and my heart says otherwise .


This is an inclusive forum that ranges wide from those who are just
discovering this "thing about themselves" to those who are seasoned cd /tg /ts/gender-etc. veterans .

As with all of society , there are variables . So many of those variables in the bigger society are considered taboo. Crossdressing and other presentations gender variations are clearly a type of taboo to the bigger society . But here ,on this forum we can discuss it . openly to each other . We don't always have to agree on the definitions of terms and the splitting of words , but here we are .
thank you for starting this thread . It brings out a lot of critical thought and an active discussion .

[sometimes_miss]

Jenni, if you're transsexual, you're transsexual, being gay has nothing to do with self identification. You don't have to be what other people are. Each has their own niche in the huge TG community. What we have in common, is that we don't fit the average straight person list of feelings and behaviors. But the feelings and behaviors that we do identify with are quite varied.


Could it be that male crossdressers are attracted to female things, in order to express a female identity that ultimately distances themselves from the pressures that society puts upon men within that society? That is, it becomes an escape from themselves?
That begs the question of whether it's the escape from masculinity, or the rush towards femininity. Or a some of both. There is a group that believes we are all 'failed men'; that we embrace the feminine because we can't 'make it' as a male, either to society, our mate, or ourselves. Then we have the flip side, in two parts: One, those who are TS but can't face it, so say it's just all about the clothes as they go on about changing their voice, growing breasts, practicing mannerisms to be as female as possible. Two, true TS who feel so out of place that they will do almost anything to become the female they feel that they are. Three, those of us who feel like we're supposed to be female, but without most of the primarily recognized associative feelings and behaviors that would be congruent with being female. I'm sure there are more, but I can't think of them off the top of my head at the moment.

[sarahcsc]

This reminds me of the plight of the muslims, who are being misrepresented by ISIS and radicalized islamists. The muslims would argue that these fundamentalists do not represent them, but it does little to lessen the stigma and discrimination.

Sometimes, the most vocal of a group have also the most 'extreme' in values. There are militant trans both out there and here in the forum and I suspect even they themselves don't see eye to eye with with each other.

Jenni, you can leave, but the real question is, where would you go? Leave, and you risk other people misrepresenting you.

Or you can join the ranks of activists yourself and fight for what you think is right, you sound pretty articulate to me.

I like it when people send me negative pms, or when the content of my posts are censored, because that means I'm hitting the spot.

Depending on how passionate I am on the topic, I will devote energy to keep 'hitting the spot'.

Don't be afraid if nobody agrees with you, or that you don't garner a following. After all, you are not doing it for them.

Remember Charlie Hebdo? Those guys are my heroes.

And Flatlander is right, if you don't speak up, nothing will happen. The ball is in your court now.


Love,
S

[Krisi]

CJ has her own way and nobody needs to stick their nose in her business.

Until she puts her business on a web forum on the Internet. That's an invitation for discussion.

[Teresa]

Jenni,
On the whole I don't like the way the media treats any of us across the spectrum, I can't believe how they can say they researched their articles and yuet get it so wrong, the problem the mas market will read this stuff.
I wrote to the Daily Mail about an article entitled , " My crossdressing husband is a bully !" The fact was his behavior had nothing to do with CDing and yet that suggested the two could go together.
Some trans people do use or misuse the media, if we don't like it we don't have to read it but it will still affect us because others have read it and believed it all.
I guess we just have stick with it and try harder to get the voice of reason heard !

[Mayo]

As an individual who supports LGBT advocacy, I consider myself 'vocal' and an 'activist', and I've argued in other threads (including the one you started that led you to begin this thread) that activism is valuable. I also understand that you may not agree with some of the goals promoted by activists, and that is entirely your right. At the same time, others have the right to advocate for their views, whether you agree with them or not.


Sometimes, the most vocal of a group have also the most 'extreme' in values.Generally, only those members of a group who feel particularly passionate about something will stand up and make themselves heard, especially when said group is marginalized because doing so can expose one to persecution and even violence, and not everybody is prepared to take such risks. I also think many activists argue radical positions on the assumption that the more you ask for, the more you're likely to get - if you ask for 110% you might get 10%. 'Go big or go home'.

The flip side of this is that if you don't ask for things (or demand them), you get nothing, and this is a position I cannot support. For there to be change, people must speak up or the status quo will win out, whether it be on issues of sexual orientation, gender identity, the environment, race, capitalism, war, or whatever. People must demand change if there is to be any change. Existing institutions cannot be counted on to do what is 'right', only that which sustains their own continued existence.

One common response to the demands of activists (and I'm not saying that you do this!) is to suggest that they just shut up and express themselves quietly at the ballot box, but how will policy makers know what positions to take if nobody says anything? Why would any politician adopt an unpopular position if nobody's advocating for it? In the end, telling people to be quiet and to stop protesting is really just saying "don't bother me and don't inconvenience me", which is in turn another way of saying "my comfort is more important than your discomfort". Those protesters should stop blockading that bridge because otherwise I'm going to be late for work. Rosa Parks should just shut the hell up and get to the back of the damn bus because I don't want to sit near her.


There is a vocal element that will attack conservative thought. That's not very inclusive. Everyone is supposed to have a seat at the table, whether you like what they have to say or not.Conservatives, by definition, tend to favour the status quo. Where TS/TG individuals are concerned (since this is who we're talking about here), this means a continued denial of rights. Why would anybody tolerate this? If you want to discuss (for example) what are appropriate criteria for prescribing hormone blockers to pre-teens who express a gender identity that doesn't match their genitalia, fine, but to deny them outright is to maintain the status quo. Unless you can make a strong case that doing so is better than not, you should support giving people options, which means change, which requires activism.

You raise several concerns in particular at the start of this thread, but I think those are off the topic of your main point, which is that you feel the 'trans movement' doesn't represent you. As has been mentioned, the LGBT community (and even the T community) is highly diverse and not all have the same values, interests or goals. Some you may disagree with, but would you agree that anything that promotes individual freedom while simultaneously safeguarding rights is generally beneficial? If you don't want an abortion, for example, you aren't obligated to have one, but shouldn't other people have the options? And why should you have a right to interfere with someone else's right to do so?

You can be a Democrat and not approve of what the president does. You can be a vegan and not approve of PETA. You are entitled to your opinions, but so are others, and they are just as entitled to advocate for change as you are - or you can advocate for the status quo of you have reason to believe it's better than change. If you think that a position is harmful and/or based on incorrect facts and you can support your argument, you should say so. You're under no obligation to agree with anybody else, just as nobody else is under obligation to agree with you, but as long as your opinions are based on facts (rather than simple moralizing) then people should be open to discussing them.

LGBT advocacy benefits you if it gives you more rights, whether or not you participate. If you personally don't want to be out on the front lines at the protests or writing letters to media or politicians, so be it, but you still benefit. You can disagree with specific agendas, but you still benefit from having more rights. And even if you personally don't benefit from a particular activist position, others do, which improves the ability of other people to have more options. Freedom is having options.

[flatlander_48]

I also think many activists argue radical positions on the assumption that the more you ask for, the more you're likely to get - if you ask for 110% you might get 10%. 'Go big or go home'.

I think this is what happened when legislative proposals were put together here in the US for what's called the Employee Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA). As originally written, ENDA included protections with respect to orientation and gender identity. However, in the end (no pun intended) gender identity was a bargaining chip and was dropped.


Existing institutions cannot be counted on to do what is 'right', only that which sustains their own continued existence.

The progress of Marriage Equality here in the US is a recent example. Basically all people wanted was formal recognition of their relationships and to not be disadvantaged financially and legally. That didn't necessarily have to be marriage, but that was eventually the approach taken due to the overwhelming oppsition to do what was right.

In addition to "sustaining its own continued existence", granting rights and privileges always seems to be thought of as a Zero Sum Game. Going back to Marriage Equality, people actually stated that if the ability to marry was granted to gays and lesbians, their own heterosexual unions would be diminished. That's a tough sell when nothing changed regarding the requirements for heterosexual couples.


One common response to the demands of activists (and I'm not saying that you do this!) is to suggest that they just shut up and express themselves quietly at the ballot box, but how will policy makers know what positions to take if nobody says anything?

The other thing that makes this unworkable is that depending upon the office and the country, election cycles can be 2, 4 or 6 years. Very hard to have anything close to continuous progress with that degree of granularity.

DeeAnn

[nikkiwindsor]

I think tolerance and appreciating our diversity of thought and expression are among qualities that bind us together.

[Lena]

This thread ticks me off on so many levels.

1. You don't get to revoke your trans card anymore that I can arbitrary revoke my man card. We are what we are and can't change it.

2. I'm tired of people saying that rights are determined by elections. You can't vote to remove rights from people. Rights are protected by the Constitution. That's the beauty of a republic; the Constitution protects minority opinions and people from simple democracy. You don't get to ban a group of people from having rights because of majority rule. If so, maybe we could have a vote to ban all guns or ban a particular reason. Same concept.

3. I can't believe a person wearing a wig and dress defends the "conservative" victimization. You can't promote decisiveness, intolerance and contempt for one subset (LGBT) and then cry victim when they are intolerant to your intolerance. You can't complain that someone is not inclusive of your divisive views.

4. If you want to defend the victimization of "conservative" thought, why not go talk to those expressing those thoughts while wearing a dress and see just how inclusive they are.

[ReineD]

I can no longer identify with the trans community. I simply do not like what it has become. I do not agree with the trans-activists who have become so vocal.

One of the biggest issues among the entire group of people who cross some or all of the gender boundaries, is the fact that everyone uses the same word "transgender" to identify themselves. It's confusing for everyone, trans and cis alike, and it gives rise to countless debates. We do need more words that describe important subdivisions of the community, that everyone will agree to. :p

Transitioning transsexuals and the media who report on their lives and activities have appropriated the word "transgender" and this gives the public the impression that every man who wears a dress or presents as a woman wants hormones and wants to transition. This couldn't be farther from the truth and I don't blame you for wanting to disassociate yourself from this faction of the community if you are not transsexual. I don't know why the term "transsexual" was dropped in the media... maybe there was a push to distance the process of transition from the notion that it is associated with sexual motives, which was a theory proposed by Ray Blanchard during the 1990s that was sorely disputed by transsexuals.

But I agree, it marginalizes the gender-fluid or genderqueer folks. It's looking like they need their own term now different from "transgender" and they need more of their own spokespersons, preferably not rock stars or artists (as much as I adore David Bowie), because the general public will persist in seeing any expression of alternate gender as a way to be creative for artistic expression.





I do not agree with the way children, who when expressing a preference for toys, colours, or clothing, are being identified as trans (when in the past they were referred to as tom-boys, or girly-boys (note the use of the word "boy" in both scenarios), many of whom who went through such actually ended up not being trans at all.

I don't like the way kids today are being bracketed, labelled, and encouraged down a specific path, instead of being simply allowed to explore themselves and simply enjoy what they want to, at a specific time (childhood) without being labelled or identified in any way that could end up having a life-long consequence for them.

(That, funnily enough, was one of the reasons why I posted my previous thread. I couldn't help but feel that if I was born today, I would end up being a teenager on hormone blockers, set in concrete into a specific category, a category that doesn't include the word term "crossdresser" (which is what I actually am). I would have been identified as a boy who wanted to BE a girl, instead of being identified as a boy who simply wanted to WEAR the same clothes that girls did!)

I think you're reading more into it than there is. No parent will rush their child to a doctor for hormone blockers the minute a girl plays with trucks and wants to join the football team, or a boy wants to wear a fairy princess outfit. Parents tend to fight huge internal battles when their young children tell them they are not the gender the parents believe them to be, and it is only after years of unwavering, consistent insistence combined with deep unhappiness over presenting as the gender associated with the birth sex, that parents will agree to support their children's transitions ... and it is the reason to go for hormone blockers, which gives the child that much extra time to decide if they want to pursue full transition down the road.



I can not relate to the individuals who are being put forth as being spokespeople for the trans-community. I am tempted to name individuals at this point, but I'll refrain from doing so, in order to avoid offending any one here.

If you're thinking of Kaytlin Jenner and her friends, they don't speak for the trans-community. They represent transitioning transsexuals only, the very people who should have been placed on hormone blockers during puberty (even if it means the US not having won the decathlon Gold during the 1976 Olympics). So please feel free to tell others you are gender-fluid or genderqueer, or tell them that not every transgender is transsexual, if they believe that "transgender" means a person wanting to live full time as the gender opposite their birth-sex.


Interestingly, some who didn't accept me as being trans finally did AFTER I came out as gay. Take from that what you will. (I certainly did.)

I get it. I can see why the most believable transsexuals are those who are indeed attracted to the sex opposite their birth-sex, since the vast majority of cis-people are hetero and this is what they understand.


As to your other points about gender as a social construct, Kaitlyn is correct, only gender expression changes across time and cultures. The men hundreds of years ago who wore frilly cuffs, heels, tights, powdered wigs, etc, were appropriately dressed as men for their day. King Louie XVI (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Antoine-Fran%C3%A7ois_Callet_-_Louis_XVI%2C_roi_de_France_et_de_Navarre_%281754-1793%29%2C_rev%C3%AAtu_du_grand_costume_royal_en_1 779_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg/1024px-Antoine-Fran%C3%A7ois_Callet_-_Louis_XVI%2C_roi_de_France_et_de_Navarre_%281754-1793%29%2C_rev%C3%AAtu_du_grand_costume_royal_en_1 779_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg) would have dressed like Marie Antoinette (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Marie_Antoinette_1767.jpg) if he had been a crossdresser, gender-fluid, or transsexual.

Also, it is entirely appropriate today for women to climb the corporate ladder, make financial decisions, enjoy sports that were traditionally reserved for men and choose to not mask their natural beauty with makeup and ruin their posture with heels, as it is for men to enjoy cooking and taking care of their skin, and fathers to be equal partners in the caring of their children and taking on household chores, without any of this being looked upon as anyone having "gender issues".

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I hope you will decide to stay and participate in this forum. You express yourself well and we do need articulate people who can help fight the notion that most every member here wants to transition. In fact, only a small percentage of the people who cross the gender boundaries do end up transitioning to the point where they want everyone in their lives to look upon them as women (for MtFs) and men (for FtMs).

[flatlander_48]

I don't know why the term "transsexual" was dropped in the media... maybe there was a push to distance the process of transition from the notion that it is associated with sexual motives, which was a theory proposed by Ray Blanchard during the 1990s that was sorely disputed by transsexuals.

I would wonder if the change in usage merely relates to the fact that transsexual contains the word Sex. We are often so superficially puritanical and that may drive us to want to manipulate the language.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

I would wonder if the change in usage merely relates to the fact that transsexual contains the word Sex. We are often so superficially puritanical and that may drive us to want to manipulate the language.

Yes, that's what I meant by a possible desire to distance themselves from the idea there are sexual motives for transition. Transsexual.

[flatlander_48]

No, that's not what I meant. I was speaking of just the act of saying SEX openly in mainstream newspapers, radio, TV, magazines, etc. I think that's where the Puritanism comes in. We say Transgender and that someone Transitioned, but we rarely describe such a person as a Transsexual. It appears that folks are not afraid of saying Trans but they do appear to be as far as saying Sex. And think about: it is rare in the popular media to see Sex mentioned in positive terms. What you'll see is the word linked to scandals, prostitution, STD's, violence, etc.

DeeAnn