In defence of being TS, AND girly.

[I Am Paula]

On these pages, elsewhere in real life, and in numerous articles in numerous media, there has been so many arguments about what are real transwomen?
One that comes up often is -It's not about the clothes. OK. Clothes do not define anybody. I know lots of real transwomen who believe that now they are authentic, they must wear grey track pants, and a tee shirt they got for running a marathon 7 years ago. That this is the REAL DEAL. They frown on girly transwomen, and blame them for being dishonest, and superficial.
Guess what? In the cis world, there are women (born with vaginas) who love fashion, spend a lot of time and money at it, and are so feminine, and girly they push the binary envelope. Uber-women.
I can guarantee you, I am 100% woman, granted, trans. I have finished (maybe) transition, socially, business wise, every aspect of my life I am a woman.
I adore fashion, being girly, the pampering of a good day spa, or a mani pedi. I would kill for the opportunity to wear a ball gown, and I stare in bridal shop windows. I do own a tiara (long story), I don't listen to her, but think Katy Perry is a cool role model. Kaitlyn has said some dumb things in her short time on our side, but I didn't scream foul when she said she a tough part of her life is picking out a dress. I get my hair done too often, my nails have to be perfect or I'm off to the salon. I wish I had a Barbie doll. I put on makeup to get the mail.
If you care to dress like 98% of the people you see at a mall, and that's what you call authentic, that's fine. I love you for it.
If I have to shop in Yorkville, and carry a Channel purse, that's fine too. It's not an act, and there's no such thing as being too girly.

Your turn to pick me apart, and throw my bones to the vultures.

[Eringirl]

Ditto. My sister is a self confessed "girly-girl", as am I. We share clothes, like the same type of fashions etc. I always accessorize even if I am just staying in the house. I would rather die than go out without mascara, and there is never enough room for shoe storage! That's not to say I don't wear Jeans and T-shirts...I absolutely do, but when the occasion or location calls for it, etc. Grocery shopping? Jeans. Out to dinner, not so much. You get the idea I'm sure.

So save me a seat at your table kiddo....

[becky77]

Haha.
I always wear makeup as do most of the women I associate with.

I think there is a fear that if you admit to being a bit feminine your identity is in question as you must be a CD.

Of course I will show disdain for anyone tottering around on heels and it has nothing to do with being jealous because I'm too tall to wear them myself!!

[Jennifer-GWN]

Ok bobsey twin number 3... I do recall being called out for my personal style that is skirts or dresses virtually all the time in the past. I'm a professional business women where I am expected to be well dressed particularly at the senior and exec levels.

For those who have met me f2f personally you know I range on the more girly side. No jeans, never have, never did, no intention; virtually no pants either. While I don't have the extended pit crew that Paula has I do have my regular care schedules.

I've said it before... My mom instilled an approach and expectation as a woman and that is engrained in me.

On the flip side I recognize the fluidity of our space and women in general... From the sweatpants crew to goth, to who knows what. To each their own. What I have learned and observed in the process of transitioning is that those who take a more feminine appearance approach have a bit easier time with acceptance then those who; as Paula has put it In the past simply declared themselves a bear and wonder why no one accepts that simple fact.

This is not to perscribe that everyone has to follow some prescribed steriotypical female construct but looking at it this way... The average public need more than a statement "I'm a woman" to get it... Projecting as much of a feminine visual as possible is important from a que perspective. This has to be done to the degree you feel comfortable.

I have a couple of friends who educate me regularly on this point... They are women... However do not present feminine and in the process suffer with acceptance to some degree but they stand firm on not feeling they need to "play" a feminine role simply because they see this as no different from playing a male presentation just to be accepted as male. So they stand presentation fluid or androgenous. Who am I to judge them or ridicule.

Girly it is for me and comfortable with that.

Cheers... Jennifer

[becky77]

For those who have met me f2f personally you know I range on the more girly side.

Not overtly though, subtle and well executed I thought.

[Zooey]

Why would we pick you apart? I'm a jeans/tshirt kind of gal most days, but I do wear makeup every day (and not just because I have some things to cover up). I love a good spa day, and a mani/pedi with a friend is the best. When I feel like it, I love a fun dress and occasionally a bit of glam. Incidentally, I can often be found singing and "dancing" in the car to Miss Perry, much to the amusement of other drivers at traffic lights.

There's nothing wrong with being girly.

The only thing I don't care for is when people dress a certain way because they believe their identity as a woman is contingent upon it, believe that being a woman means you're supposed to/must do that to be accepted, or suggest that other women aren't proper women for not dressing that way. So long as you're not doing any of those things, I say you do you.

[LeaP]

Total straw man.

+1 Zooey.

[edit]

I realized after the fact that this probably came off a bit short. Sorry about that ... I'm pretty sick at the moment.

I recognize the theme, but I wonder how much of it has to do with sensitivity.

[flatlander_48]

I know lots of real transwomen who believe that now they are authentic, they must wear grey track pants, and a tee shirt they got for running a marathon 7 years ago.

That's funny!! Sounds like the transgender equivalent of lesbians having a closet full of flannel and engineer boots. However, fortunately we do know that there isn't just one way to be anything...

DeeAnn

[AllieSF]

This internal discrimination is always an interesting thing. The lesbians had and have it with the butches and androgynous versus the femmes. The gays have it with the more their femme and closet members, and we all something like that even in our vanilla straight world. It always seems to stand out among the minorities when as a whole they want to advance and then they have this public dissension in their ranks, very similar to some of our discussions here! LOL

[steftoday]

Wow, Paula. Where's the "like" button?

[PretzelGirl]

I think a lot is just looking comfortable in being you. I dress a little above business casual at work as it is appropriate. Casual top and jeans outside of work. I went to the gym the other day and picked up a cake sans make-up and in yoga pants and a tank. It isn't the clothes, it is you!

Becky, I feel for the taller girls as it can certainly be a problem. At 5'11", I avoided heels at work and I know I am probably just at the high end of average and no where near having the concerns some have. Then I started supporting a director that was my height and rocked heels every day. Then got a new co-worker three inches taller and she rocks her heels. There is nothing that makes it better than positive examples. I hope you get yours.

[Jennifer-GWN]

Personally I don't give heels a second thought they are a staple and I'm 5 11 to start. Becky... You carry your couple of extra inches so very well and look so good in the process heels or not.

To your point Sue your confidence and how you carry yourself plays a very big role. Getting to that point often takes much time and effort; from there your style is your style.

[Badtranny]

I'll take the bait because I'm always yammering about clothes because I'd like to clarify something to anyone who may have misunderstood me.

When I talk about clothes I am almost always talking within the context of motives for transitioning. I'm only trying to make the point that those of us who pull the pin, don't do it for the wardrobe. That's not an arguable point and I don't make it to argue anyway. I talk about clothes because I want people who are confused to think about cross dressing in a different way. As a kid I would daydream about being stranded on a desert island and hoping I would never get rescued because I wouldn't want to act like a boy anymore. Clothes are not a part of that scenario.

I will admit to not cross dressing much in my life, and I will admit to not being overtly feminine acting or dressing. I will not admit to casting aspersions on girly girls because I've never done it. I have friends Cis and otherwise who are much more or much less femmy than me. It's of no concern.

Once you transition you have earned the right to dress however you damn well please. I would only advise that you be honest with yourself and be who YOU are. What anyone else thinks about that should be of very little concern to you.

[Brooklyn]

Trans-women can do everything that cis-women do, and if being girly is your thing, then go for it. Where the OP mentions "real transwomen", however, I cringe a little. There are all kinds of transgender women, y'all, and if you take the journey to changing your name and gender-marker, that's real enough for me. Maybe you identified as a crossdresser or a drag queen or gay at one point, it really makes no difference to the wider world. I think it is prudent, however, to help others who may be temporarily over-enthusiastic about women's undergarments and high heels, for example, to avoid up-ending their lives with HRT, surgery, and social transition, because sexual yearning cannot be resolved that way.

[Leah Lynn]

Although I have a closet full of dresses, skirts and dressy tops, I'm usually in jeans, but I prefer tops other than t's. Around the house I often wear a skirt, but rarely in public. I have some rather unsightly discoloration on my legs. One doctor claims it's from spending too much time in rice paddys while participating in the Southeast Asia War Games. Another says it's caused by heart disease. Regardless of the cause, it's ugly, and I prefer to keep it covered. Now that winter is here, I do wear tights with a skirt or dress occasionally. But then, there's not much reason to dress to the nines in Smallville.

Since I do live in a cold climate, I have some flannel in my wardrobe. I do ride a Harley, so I have a pair of engineer boots, as well.

Leah

[KellyJameson]

Women share the effects of oppression, sexual objectification and powerlessness.

Often expressed as feeling inferior in relationship to men or as an individual woman compared to other women.

It manifests and expresses itself in many different ways in cis women but it is always there as she struggles against it outside herself and within herself.

It is at its core a struggle for dignity.

Trans women do not show the effects of sexual objectification, oppression or powerlessness but something else altogether. I could not understand why I rarely experience trans women as women and it was because of this missing in them that is in all cis women.

Trans women seem to simply feel inadequate as any kind of women.

This makes their concerns often very superficial until they leave the trans world behind and join the world of women.

[pamela7]

this late-onset is like a starving kid in a candy store - at first I just had to gorge in pink and sensuality - and then practicality kicks in. and then there's the style that's "me", which means exploring what that is. From being the male who dressed ultra-bright to stand out as different to the crowd, do i continue bright or do i switch to the dull colours of the camouflaged bird? Only time will tell, but one thing for sure, no-one here ought to be criticised for being into their dress-sense and clothing and presentation because it both reflects and complements their sense of identity, particularly the hat and wig as the ancient egyptians knew so well. for me it's integrally wrapped up with who i am, who i present and being honest and authentic means finding this out and presenting as exactly that. Well, that's my ha'penn'orth. xx

[PaulaQ]

Trans women do not show the effects of sexual objectification, oppression or powerlessness but something else altogether. I could not understand why I rarely experience trans women as women and it was because of this missing in them that is in all cis women.

So ...let me make sure I understand this. Your primary connection to other women is through the negative things they experience, and abuse, rather than their positive traits as women?


This makes their concerns often very superficial until they leave the trans world behind and join the world of women.

Do you mean concerns like survival, objectification, sexualization, massive discrimination? The soul withering loneliness? Or are we all just about our hair, like Cait seems to be?

If your view of "success" at integrating into the world of women is to be as messed up as a soup sandwich, just like many cis women are, then thanks, but no thanks.

My own opinion, and feel free to disagree with this, is that the visible, superficial parts of transition are the easy parts. I know they aren't easy for many of us who lack resources to accomplish them, but nevertheless, I assert that they are not the hardest part. No, the hard part is dealing with all the stuff inside you, all the poison our toxic, diseased and dysfunctional world force feeds each and every one of us. Working to be a better woman on the inside. You know - the type of thing every woman ought to do, but most don't. The one's who do, though, in my experience, they are amazing women.

[sarahcsc]

Paula (I am Paula),

People say silly things to each other to further their own agenda. Sometimes they project negative feelings outward to avoid dealing with it themselves.

To criticize transwomen for being too girly sounds like a negative projection to me. The good news is, you don't have to identify with such projections.

Good luck.


KellyJameson, I found your post (#16) disturbing. Your view on what it means to be a woman or trans-women is demeaning and distorted. Your biggest mistake is in making swathing generalizations like "all women share xxx", or "all trans women feel yyy". I sincerely hope (for your sake) that this merely reflects a poor choice of words rather than your true feelings.

Love,
S

[docrobbysherry]

I always say, "If u got it, flaunt it". :D

And, since I'm simply a CD, Sherry tries to live by that creed!:battingeyelashes:

[JanePeterson]

I'm new here so maybe I missed something...

I am having a hard time seeing how ones personal clothing choice in any way reflect their "transness"... A trans woman in a tu-tu is just as trans as someone wearing lumberjack attire - the only tie that binds trans folk together is their internal gender ID not matching their birth assigned gender, all variations of any other variables, including style, should be expected and normal.

Right?

[MissDanielle]

I'm with Jane on this one.

[debstar]

Um just be the person that you are happy being why is this even a debate?

[sarahcsc]

I am very open about my stance on pigeon-holing and defining people, is that I don't agree with it. However, I can also see why such a thing is needed in the real world.

I believe the trick is in finding a balance.

People would no doubt feel upset if they felt pigeon-holed, but those people who are being accused of doing do will inevitably reply "nobody is defining you, you have misinterpreted our words" or "if you don't like what you read then go somewhere else", or "why not just live your life the way you want to and forget what others think about you".

I have to agree... that nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to comply to set a dress code or behaviour. You are hurt by words, and that sheds light on your own insecurities which is worth examining too.

Stay away from negative comments if you feel you need to keep composure. I found that visiting this forum too often affects my ability to mentalize my feelings too, some things mentioned here are very provocative and downright... scary.

Oh well, that's my rant. Time to leave this discussion alone.

Love,
S

[Badtranny]

It isn't.

New girls go through a period of pride and discovery. Trans women dress in all manner of styles from butch to fem.

A huge part of becoming who you really are is becoming comfortable with who you are, and not a single one of us has hit our stride out of the gate. My style has changed at least 4 times in the last 4 years.

[becky77]

I don't think we discuss style enough, it's almost a taboo subject in TS circles. Probably because we've spent endless hours of therapy to release our identity and in doing so have to separate the CDing to find the truth.
Highly likely it's insecurity, but its hard not to be insecure when you approach the enormity of going full-time. That process can strip you bare and it's little wonder some of us are over protective of our new found status.

If you have spent a lot of time, energy and risk coming out and explaining to people why you are transitioning and that all these people should treat you as a woman. There is a good chance you will have a little fear that you won't be taken seriously, that you might be seen as just a crossdressing man.
That's not demeaning to crossdressers, but to be a CDer you are a man that likes to wear female clothing, to be TS you are identifying as female. That difference is huge (so huge I don't think it is possible to understand unless you go through it) and impacts on how you are treated and how you will integrate in every day life.
I can see how that need to establish your female identity can quickly turn into a need to distance yourself from anything CD related, which sadly is most often associated with stereotypical high feminine. The lesson here is not to let it takeover to the point you are telling everyone else what they can or can't wear.


If you are looking to Transition and live as stealth as possible then blending in with how most other women look is the common advice.
If you're going food shopping then typically high heels, heavy makeup and a short dress will bring attention.

That's pretty sound advise in my opinion, but that needn't be misconstrued as 'You can't be girly'.

Each to their own. I see quite a few early TS transitioners that don't know how to pull off an everyday look that says casual but feminine. A bit of constructive discussion is healthy in my opinion and shouldn't be seen as a topic we can't have here.
Contrary to urban legend, you can actually buy feminine jeans!

I do think Sarah made a thought provoking post #19, how much are we projecting and for what reasons?

Also, it's hard conveying your ideas on a static forum and what you intend as helpful advise, someone else reads as criticism.

For that reason I'm ending with :)

[Marcelle]

Hi Paula,

I was never a big fashionista as a guy and I did not suddenly become one when I transitioned. I did however define my own sense of style based on what I saw in the world and what spoke to me. Do I dress girly when I wear civilian attire? It is possible that some could argue that point especially when I am in the work place . . . business casual which for me tends to be skirts, top, heels or boots . . . trendy but age appropriate (so girly . . . guilty as charged :)). Fortunately, I wear a uniform four days out of five (as seen in my avatar). My uniform is identical to the male equivalent if I choose to wear trousers but sometimes I wear the service skirt and heels (so again girly . . . guilt as charged :)). In the winter when I travel to work I wear jeans, winter boots, top and a coat because it is comfortable walking wear and darn cold some days. In the summer I may wear capris, shorts or a skirt/sundress when walking to work depending on my feeling that day (girly perhaps but still comfortable).

When I am at home, I mainly wear yoga pants and a long sleeve top (colder weather) or shorts and t-shirt warmer weather. If I am doing outside chores I wear my army fatigue pants, combat boots, a top and a hat (no make-up or wig . . . too hot) - however in winter removing snow with the snow thrower all bets are off as I look like I am ready for deep space mission. If I go to town, I will change into something casual, don wig and apply light make-up.

In the end, whether I am dressed girly or cutting a swath of trees with my chain saw in the back forty in combat boots, fatigue pants and safety gear . . . I am still a woman . . . my style just speaks to the occasion. So IMHO nothing wrong with being too girly as many cis women I know are far more girly than me. :)

Cheers

Marcelle

[flatlander_48]

There is a good chance you will have a little fear that you won't be taken seriously, that you might be seen as just a crossdressing man.
That's not demeaning to crossdressers, but to be a CDer you are a man that likes to wear female clothing, to be TS you are identifying as female.

b7:

Actually that is somewhat demeaning to crossdressers. When you add just, it tends to prescribe a limit or establishes a hierarchy.

Also, when you say identifying as female, it really should be completely, or nearly completely, identifying as female. Otherwise it doesn't allow for people who are transgender, but their degree of dysphoria does not indicate transition.

Anyway, I don't think your intent was to be negative, but we must all be thoughtful about our use of language.

DeeAnn

[becky77]

b7:

Actually that is somewhat demeaning to crossdressers. When you add just, it tends to prescribe a limit or establishes a hierarchy.

Also, when you say identifying as female, it really should be completely, or nearly completely, identifying as female. Otherwise it doesn't allow for people who are transgender, but their degree of dysphoria does not indicate transition.

Anyway, I don't think your intent was to be negative, but we must all be thoughtful about our use of language.

DeeAnn

It would be you that has to argue.

I'm not referring to Transgender, gender fluid, middle pathers etc. I'm just referring to the huge number of men that like to crossdress and that's as far as it goes.
There is no hierarchy as we are not the same.

So I say "I'm Red and I've struggled to be Red and not seen as Blue.
You come along and say "Well that's unfair to Purple as it's a bit of Red and Blue and how come Blue is lesser than Red"?
Did I mention Purple? Did I mention Pink? And how does me not wanting to be Blue make Red somehow superior?

I see plenty of CDers saying they don't want to be represented or seen as TS, yet they are not continuously bashed for recognising the difference?

I say 'Just' because people like you are constantly trying to demean our struggles by claiming we are all the same. We are not, go on another CD forum (not this one).
I don't see the regular conversation being about therapy, losing family, difficulties at work, painful surgery, depression, suicide not to mention hours of painful hair removal and huge financial issues.
I think while we are not respected as being different the 'Just' is valid.

A Crossdresser is a broad term for anyone that wears clothing of the opposite sex, if someone is more than that, they suffer Dysphoria or have female identity issues then as a figure of speech you would say you are more than someone who is only in it for the clothes.
More than, just they are just expressions to indicate this is something more serious, I don't believe it's generally intended as a put down rather it is a way to instantly express that there is something deeper going on.

We don't need people coming in and bullying everyone that doesn't speak word perfect PC language.
This is a forum for all sorts of people to find help, ask questions or just explore their feelings. Why does it have to be made political, why do you pick everything apart?

Perhaps I'm better off leaving.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If you have spent a lot of time, energy and risk coming out and explaining to people why you are transitioning and that all these people should treat you as a woman. There is a good chance you will have a little fear that you won't be taken seriously, that you might be seen as just a crossdressing man.
That's not demeaning to crossdressers, but to be a CDer you are a man that likes to wear female clothing, to be TS you are identifying as female. That difference is huge (so huge I don't think it is possible to understand unless you go through it) and impacts on how you are treated and how you will integrate in every day life.

Wow Dee Ann you are pretty incredible... like a PC police one trick pony..every thing is not about you and the "community"..most things just are what they are...

how can you possibly misintepret this comment as demeaning to anybody?...the comment is quite specific... the poster clarifies the use of the word "just" specifically because she doesnt want to hurt people that are frankly way to easy to hurt. the comment is an innocuous commiseration that expands on the OP...

but you made it about you....
it is not about YOU...it is not about CD"s...it just mentions them..

...and to top it off you chide the comment to be more careful with language when you are twisting the obvious intent of the message
..you are throwing stones through the walls of your own glass house

[Rianna Humble]

Perhaps I'm better off leaving.

No one has the right to drive a member out of this forum. :Angry3:

Becky has every right to express herself in the way that she feels most appropriate to the discussion - which it seems that I need to remind people is about transsexuals not about other people who are not.

The next person in this thread who tries to bully a member off of the forum will be taking a holiday from posting.

[Badtranny]

No one has the right to drive a member out of this forum. :Angry3:

I agree 100% with Rianna. (jeez this is getting old)

However, I would like to add that I don't believe DeeAnn was attempting anything unsavory. I try to look at people's posts within the context of their other posts. I think perhaps a reminder that this is indeed the TS forum and our concern here is not for those who don't identify as one of us, but for our sisters who have or are about to pull the pin would suffice.

On another note I would like to remind my friend becky77 that the pouting and stamping your feet thing (perhaps I'm better leaving) is not near as cute in print as it may well be in person. Basically Beck, I'm a huge fan, and you're better than that.

[becky77]

On another note I would like to remind my friend becky77 that the pouting and stamping your feet thing (perhaps I'm better leaving) is not near as cute in print as it may well be in person. Basically Beck, I'm a huge fan, and you're better than that.

Pouting is a little unfair, it feels like a fight sometimes. I try to engage and there are a couple of people that have to pick what you say apart. I'm not a public speaker or campaigner, nor am I a wordsmith I'm just trying my best to join in.
I don't have the energy and I don't like the confrontation, this is supposed to be the forum I come to discuss TS or Transition issues, yet it gets hijacked too often and I honestly feel like just bailing out.

[steftoday]

please don't bail out, becky.

[becky77]

please don't bail out, becky.

No I won't at this time, I've had some nice PM's of support. But that unnecessary attack and then the follow up patronising deleted post left me just feeling despondent.

Now we've completely gone away from the OP.

So who likes Pink lol.

[pamela7]

I lurve pink Becky, I have more pink than any other colour ...

[dreamer_2.0]

Pink lover right here! :)

[I Am Paula]

Now I'm laughing my ass off. My own comments, in my own thread, all got edited out of existance, and others are being just as bitchy, and way off the rails of the OT.

[Nigella]

And as the Op has commented, this thread has now gone way off topic and is closed.