So people do talk

[carrie001]

I work in a very "Alpha" environment, and we had a less than normal customer. Older, dirty sweatpants, long white uncemtp hair, with flowers. He wasn't remotely trying to pass. Still, people gathered to snicker and laughed. One guy remarked "I've seen him at other places in a dress. Not even caring."

And I only felt admiration for him, nutter and all, but it broke my confidence a bit, to hear what happens when "we're " out of earshot.

I don't have a point to this post. Just a bit of a reality slap I didn't want.

I love me.... it's the rest of the world that's ****ed.

[MissTee]

Unfortunately, yes, it does happen and I've heard it quite often. Most people will be polite to your face, though.

[Pumped]

Where I work is kind of alpha male too. A customer will come in that is a bit feminine and once he leaves the guys go on about if he was gay or not. Sometimes it really gets out of hand. I avoid the conversation but have commented that you never know. Sometimes the hunky manly guys are gay, and the feminine guys are straight and happily married, you can not tell by appearances. I enjoy wearing heels and I have a couple pairs medium heeled boots that at a glance pass for men's, but I would never wear them at work knowing how the alpha males would respond if they figured out the boots were a woman;s style.

[Michelle Crossfire]

Unfortunately, yes, it does happen and I've heard it quite often. Most people will be polite to your face, though.

you don't have to cd for that to happen. too many two faced people nowadays

[pamela7]

that's my SO's biggest fear about me being out and about as a woman - that other people will laugh at me and us. Well, they will, you can't stop that, so you either hide - not an option - or you just get on with it, like the guy in flowers. Someone has to be the village idiot and for sure it's a way to destroy the ego :-)

[Jenniferathome]

I think that presentation does make a difference. If you look like a bum, you are more likely to be derided regardless of cross dressing. Look like you belong, care and are deserving of respect and you will be respected.

[Amanda M]

If they are talking about you, they're leaving someone else alone!

[Donnagirl]

If you can't hear the comments, why worry about them... Some people just bitch about anyone and everyone.

[kittie60]

Alot of alpha males are idiots when there together, and have no remorse about someones feelings. With that said there are always comments, it seems to make them feel good about themselves,to belittle anyone who they think is different, I just ignore them and carry on.

[Laurana]

Of course people talk. Everybody(male and female) does or has at some point. That's what they do. And anyone who says they haven't is a liar.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Peer pressure up close and personal. Bear in mind that your Alpha associates would probably also snigger at...

Fat people
Anorexics
Short people
People who lisp
People with unusually thick spectacle lenses
Foreign people
Coloured people
People with chronic acne
Conspicuously poor people
Women with large breasts
People with nervous mannerisms...

...none of which makes your discomfort any less real...but these are not highly evolved workmates we are talking about, just run-of-the-mill idiots. Think 6 year-olds in the playground and your assessment won't be far off. And I'll bet you that some of them look longingly at their wives' panties in the washbasket, and that some of them have tried them on...or are wearing them to work. It's a lot more common than you might think.

Hugs, Nikki

[Marcelle]

Hi Carrie,

For some, it is just second nature to make fun of things you don't understand and this is normally done out of earshot of the individual. I conducted a social experiment some time ago where a GG friend of mine remained in stores after I left and listened to any comments from SAs or other customers after I left. For the most part there were none but some were downright rude and these same people were polite to my face. It is a hard pill to swallow but unfortunately if you are going to go in public you have to expect it and develop a bit of a thick skin.

In the end though, as Donna points out, if you don't hear it . . . why worry.

Cheers

Marcelle

[adrienner99]

There will always be morons. I try to remember that they would NEVER have the courage to do what CDs do.

You can't control what people say. You can control how it affects you.

[mykell]

of coarse people talk, you dont even have to leave this forum to know that, we all have opinions on everything that touches us in our daily routines,
its human nature,

this week while working i heard a crew of contractors making fun of david bowie, thinking to myself the women he had the pleasure to be with would never give these guys the time of day....

same day a fellow i was working with talked about a TG person he worked with on the crew, called them "that thing" ....thought to myself for a second and explained to him that we have a "that thing" in my family......he squirmed for a second and apologized....i told him not to sweat it that we had some time to cope with it and learn about it, he didnt know it was me i was talking about.....even if i had used a made up family example i try to have them think about what theyre saying

[CarlaWestin]

I've been weathering this very same thing lately with family and coworkers. My brother tried to tell me that stupid joke about Caitlyn getting a new pet.
My reply to the shitheads is, "Someone very close to me is transgender and I don't think that's funny."
Shuts them right down.

So, wait a minute. Let's drill into this. In the realm of male camaraderie there's this air of bravado. Or machismo, as it were. A subtle in-look into the psyche matrix of the prewire that encourages males to launch their genes into the future. Men don't carry around videos of their conquests. They only boast. Well, I don't but, cis-males do. It's a big superiority/inferiority conflict thing. So, the bravado thing is elevated by the mental masterbation of negatively commenting on anything that appears to be non-hetero.

:straightface:

I sure hope that made sense.

[Barbara Jo]

It's a fact of life and human nature.......people will talk about other people when they are not around or when they think they can not hear therm .

[Stephanie47]

My wife and I were at a minor league baseball park this past summer. A couple sitting in front of us with whom we started a conversation was so comfortable with their opinions the husband shared "modified" pictures of Caitlyn Jenner....pictures with crude remarks overlayed on her picture. Sometimes people are just plain idiots. Unfortunately, even idiots get to vote. Just look at the anti transgender legislation that passes...or the legislation that fails to pass that would protect transgenders.

I cringe every time I read on this forum the advice to just don your dress and heels and go out because nobody really cares. Well, too many people care enough to let friendship just flicker out. Invites to the BBQ or festive event diminishes. I hear adverse comments concerning gays and lesbians, transgenders, immigrants (legal and undocumented), blacks, Asians..you name it, somebody dislikes a certain segment of society.

When confronted with ignorance it is everybody's duty to confront it.

[Tracii G]

Human nature and not much you can do about it.
Like Carla when I hear CJ or trans jokes I'll say something like thats not funny.

[sugarbabe]

alpha males are idiots

Something happened and a lot of extra words were added to your post ;)

[Katey888]

When confronted with ignorance it is everybody's duty to confront it.

Yep! 100% agree Steph... and help educate people - but not everyone has either the willingness or capacity to receive wisdom.... far easier to simply go along with whatever the media or internet are throwing at them as soundbites or humorous stories...

Carrie - it is a simple fact that all of us are open to this whether we hear it or not, regardless of how we present or where we are. As Tracii rightly says, it's human nature for some people to disguise their own insecurities by denigrating others - please don't let it get to you... :hugs: While I agree with Steph that some 'getting out' advice here is cringeworthy, you do have to find a way to say to yourself "I'm doing this because I need to for reasons that are valid for me - if someone else has a problem with that, it's their's to deal with and it is NOT going to spoil my experience!" :)

This "alpha" BS is just that... it's become a catchphrase to justify bigotry and bullying - no more...

Katey x

[Robin414]

I'm honestly not sure what people say when leave ear shot. When I'm in 70/30 mode I've thought a guy was checking out my behind...pretty sure he commented to the the woman behind the counter he was hitting on 'that's one pretty looking dude 😃 '

[Dana44]

I used to work with a lot of Alpha men. They act like they are from a different planet. I have met them in business as heads of corporations. Gee I never heard one of them say anything highly intelligent. Seems they still have the caveman mentality.
Like "Ugh, hey just do what I say or i'll lick your a**."

[pamela7]

it's not "alpha", but it is "beta" or "gamma" - the lower males and female. I find top top people very open and nonjudgemental.

Its not only CD or minorities who get it though, so also do celebrities, at all levels, looking at the caitlyn debate here, this forum is not immune. As a leading member of a therapy community I found the dunces attacking me behind my back.

Such peole are weak-minded and contemptible, but i feel sorry for them instead; they have been moulded into what they now are.

[bok4fun]

If they are talking about you, they're leaving someone else alone!

I have been saying this for years. I have tough skin, and let it roll right off of me.

Parish

[sometimes_miss]

Where I work is kind of alpha male too
That definitely has nothing to do with it. I work with a group who are 80% college grads, and of those, 20% have post grad degrees, in a science field. And there are plenty of those who make fun of us behind our backs. I'm not out, either; so I get to hear all the snickers and jokes. It's a tough world out there; it's not pretty for those of us who cross the line, or the clothes.

[TaraGrace]

it's not "alpha", but it is "beta" or "gamma" - the lower males and female. I find top top people very open and nonjudgemental.


That nails it for me actually.

An true alpha is comfortable with anything.. confident and perhaps on the edge of arrogance, but they will generally feel secure and easy around anyone. Sure they can dish out sharp comments, but they'll likely do it around you, and just as easy take one in return, almost like flirting (but without the content of taking it anywhere.)

[carrie001]

Wow, lots of great comments. I will say this in the people I work withs defense, they weren't being hatful or bigoted, I would have said something. They were more just "hey, check this out. " Also, yesterday I was having a hard time getting into guy mode for work, so it may have hit me in a sore spot.

[Lauri K]

My personal thoughts are that if they are talking about me, some other person is catching a short break since they are not being discussed.

People can be mean as snakes and not even realize what they are doing, as many people are just followers that want to jump on and bandwagon of the discussion if you will,and if it turns hateful they just add fuel to the fire it seems.

I will leave the room if I cannot shut down these people saying bigoted / hateful things, but usually I can get the water on the fire ......but in cases where the conversation happens after I leave there is nothing I can do .......

I have new shirt that say's "I Literally Do Not Care" and I wear it with pride, but truth is though I have feelings too, just cannot wear them on your shoulders

[Allisa]

That is why I present myself with as much "class" as I can when I'm out, if they talk about me let it be good. I also work in a very 'Alpha" male environment and have been questioned about my appearance, being of short and slim stature, shaved arms, clear polished nails, long hair, pierced ears, and all behind my back, but in the long run after doing my job, mostly better than the "gossips", they are dismissed and some times I even gain their respect, so let them talk, the cream always comes to the top.

[kristacd]

My wife and I were at a local sports bar last week. A group of 5 people came in . All I noticed was a group with 3 females and 2 males. The bar tender was talking to another couple at another table and they were laughing and making jokes. I asked my wife what they were laughing about, she said one of the people in that group was a he/she. By then the bar tender and my wife were laughing and making jokes . I asked my wife Is he hurting anyone? Is he causing any trouble ? The answer was no to both questions . I only seen him from the back but I never would have known if they hadn't been making jokes and laughing.

[PamelaRI]

One of the places where I work is a University where there is the requisite LGBTQ Center and several out and proud gay and lesbian people on staff. So you'd think that at least generally speaking that the staff would be sensitive to the issue, but nope, I've heard he/she, shim, it and other rude comments with some of the most vociferous being from folks who are gay. Anytime that I hear it, I always mention politely that it takes quite a bit of courage to be the person that you want to be especially when most people don't understand it as well as how does what they wear affect you? I think my comments have shocked a few people, because I'm not known as a very liberal person.

[CONSUELO]

There are a lot of nasty people out there, but some of it is pure ignorance in the true sense of the word. They just have never encountered many people who fall outside the norms of society and they are therefore trapped in their narrow mindedness.

[flatlander_48]

And I only felt admiration for him, nutter and all, but it broke my confidence a bit, to hear what happens when "we're " out of earshot.

But, if a tree falls in the forrest...

Basically, if you were the one dressed and you didn't hear it, it didn't happen. Anything further is just speculation.

DeeAnn

[Julia1984]

Carrie
Believe me. These are not alpha males. They are troglodytes who may (but in all probability, do not) believe themselves to be alphas. The capacity of humans to delude themselves is really quite extraordinary.
Julia xx

[Sarah Doepner]

I used to work in support of law enforcement and the officers were well trained in diversity issues. In the field they were almost always respectful of everyone, LGBTQ, race, religion etc. But back in the station they were much less so. I never confronted them on this directly, but should have found a way. Circumstances were different for me back then, as was society in general, but I am more willing to take advantage of "educational" opportunities now. I doubt this type of behavior will ever totally disappear, but in time maybe it will be more widely recognized as inappropriate by more and more people.

[flatlander_48]

S C:

That brings up a good point. Equality-related statutes are all about behavior and this is completely independent of what people may, or may not, think or believe. However, the danger is that when there is no alignment between behavior and beliefs, the beliefs can overpower the behaviors under certain circumstances.

DeeAnn

[Brandy Mathews]

Oh yes,
People definitely talk. People today seem to think that they can do no wrong and are perfect. Well I am the first one to say that I am not perfect, far from it. And if wearing wearing women's clothing is such a huge crime, then I guess that I am guilty. With all of this Facebook and Twitter these days, people get really hateful and that is too bad.
Hugs,
Bree :)

[mechamoose]

Do you have her email address? I'm sure we would get along grandly.

I don't try to pass, I can't pass. I still want to be pretty. She sounds like my kind of person!

- MM

[JaytoJillian]

I work at the corporate HQ of a multi-billion dollar firm that is transphobic and homophobic from the CEO on down. Some of the senior execs who are women are just as biased and rude. When the news on Caitlyn Jenner broke, the filth that overflowed from their mouths was unbelievable. Cracks about gay people are similarly routine even though a few of our senior people are gay. Just reminds me of the importance of keeping friends close, and enemies closer.

[flatlander_48]

J:

I take it that they would not score very well on Corporate Equality Index that is done every year by the Human Rights Campaign?

Nice photo, by the way...

DeeAnn

[mechamoose]

Trans-phobia and homo-phobia are not anything like the same thing. It is just an easy box to check off for *-phobes.

We are, after all, the reason that society is failing, right? That is what the TeeVee tells me.

Should I not believe the TeeVee?

/snark

- MM

[Tina_gm]

This is a good topic. I think either due to location, or dealing with helpful SA's, or generally being in tg friendly places, we may become a little too comfortable with our perceived acceptance.

Not that there hasn't been good progress made overall, but I have witnessed plenty of not so friendly attitudes to say the least when it comes to us.

On the occasions I have seen sisters out dressed, there is still those who will at the least have a very dissaproving look. Giggles, comments of disgust, name calling does happen.

We still hear frequently of brutality against those who are trans. MOST of the time, in MOST places, little will go wrong. We still need to be mindful of our surroundings.

[flatlander_48]

Trans-phobia and homo-phobia are not anything like the same thing.

Yes and no.

The construct is the same. In both cases, someone is discounted for an innate quality over which they have no control. The difference is the specific issue. All -ism's are exactly the same way regardless of whether the person being discounted is female, or of a different religion, nationality, race, age, etc. SSDD.

DeeAnn

[Tina_gm]

I think there are probably a good majority of people who if they have a phobia of gay or trans, they likely consider it one in the same.

[flatlander_48]

In part, that's the root of the question when crossdressers or transgender people come out: "Are you gay?".

DeeAnn

[Tina_gm]

It is due to the portrayal and in earlier days, those that were out (Rupaul for example ) were gay. I happened to be channel surfing, Erasure was on an old Arnold movie. Sure enough, there was a gay club scene, and about 50% of those in the club were drag. Do we know the difference? Sure. But what about the non informed public? It only makes sense that the only time they have ever witnessed a mtf cd they were gay. Why would they ever think otherwise....

[flatlander_48]

Yes, but I think it goes beyond that. Remember the binary construct: 2 genders, 2 sexualities. A given gender has a particular sexuality associated with it. Without further or more specific information, if you're doing something that doesn't match, you must be gay because there is no other explanation (in their minds).

DeeAnn

[Tina_gm]

Well I think too... women who are probably attracted to men and then having us dress and act like them are probably going to assume since we like x and y, we are gonna like z too. Most men are likely to just lump it all into gay guys are fem, guys who dress are even more fem, so that just makes us level 10 gay.

[Rachael Leigh]

Hi Carrie,

For some, it is just second nature to make fun of things you don't understand and this is normally done out of earshot of the individual. I conducted a social experiment some time ago where a GG friend of mine remained in stores after I left and listened to any comments from SAs or other customers after I left. For the most part there were none but some were downright rude and these same people were polite to my face. It is a hard pill to swallow but unfortunately if you are going to go in public you have to expect it and develop a bit of a thick skin.

In the end though, as Donna points out, if you don't hear it . . . why worry.

Cheers

Marcelleth

This is exactly how I feel so well said Marcelle. I know most times I'm out I'm read but I try not to worry about it.
Most of the time my interaction has been positive so I just put it out of my head

[Nadine Spirit]

Honestly this thread is a bit of a surprise to me.... of course people talk. People talk all the time, about everybody. Especially when it is about something that is a bit out of the ordinary. I make the assumption that everyone I encounter is going to talk with somebody about the experience. It actually helps me to relax and be myself. I try and make it so that the conversation will hopefully go something along these lines:


"Hey did you see that cross dresser?"

"Yeah."

"Can you believe that anyone would ever do that?"

"No, that is crazy."

"But they did have on a nice outfit."

"Yeah and they were really nice and friendly."



At least that is what I like to picture. Even if it doesn't, why would I care?

[Diversity]

Society is what it is, unfortunately. It's a part of nature, which I hope will change someday.
Di