Transgenderism and Gynecomastia?

[JanePeterson]

Hope this is the right part of the forum for this question...

Was discussing breast growth as it relates to HRT with therapist today... And mentioned that I had mild gynecomastia as a kid - she noted that many of her clients report the same thing, and surmised that it could be a result of the genetic or developmental process that makes people trans to begin with - basically another clue that I should have been born a girl in the first place...

Do/did any of you have something similar? Secondary charactersitcs typically associated with being female?

Mine was so mild it never caused me any issues, but found her anecdotal account of how common it is to be interesting.

Thanks!!

Jane

[pamela7]

my father had it, i do also, even when fit and muscly, quite large nipples for a "biological male" also.
Did you also have a slow/late/delayed/incomplete adolesscence/ keep growing long after normally the T would stop growth?

[LucyNewport]

That's really interesting- I have had small boobs & prominent nips most of my life. It always made me leary of taking my shirt off to swim or whatever. I don't know if it has anything to do with my transness but as I have come to terms with who I am they stopped bothering me completely.

As for other features, I've got an even mix of fem and masculine. Who knows what that means (if anything)?

[EllieMayxxx]

I have always been large and school was a nightmare, I always used to get bullied because it looked like i had boobs and my nipples are, like what Lucy said, prominent. And people used to comment on how much i look like my mum. So this is another reason why i think this way too.

[PretzelGirl]

I think you will find quite a variance in answers here. The one common element for us will be when they completely figure out if we have a common brain or chromosomal element (if they do). The rest of the body is a crap shoot. I had nothing including no muscle since I was a wimp. As a matter of fact, I had nothing after over a year of HRT. Closing in on two years and something now seems to be waking up. Not what I would call a trend to having breasts when you are trans.

[JanePeterson]

Interesting - I never had any breast development, but did develop a lot of glandular/structure inside my breasts which is what led to the diagnosis... I have a completely normal looking chest for a man.

To be honest, I am hoping any breast development is extremely slow in my case, as I'm stuck in the closet for the next year or two and would like to avoid binding etc.

Thanks for the replies so far!!

[Demi88]

I had no gynecomastia as a kid.

[dreamer_2.0]

No breast growth or any other secondary characteristics for me either. Aside from being relatively small framed, I don't think there was any visible indication of anything feminine.

[Badtranny]

There is no 'tell'.

I know genetic women who have very obvious feminine bodies yet they are quite masculine otherwise. Conversely, some trans women have started with extremely masculine bodies.

I have very small hands and no adams apple, does that mean I was destined to be trans? I doubt it. I have met small very pretty guys who would give anything to be bigger and rougher looking. Being trans has nothing to do with the physical form. It's all in the heart. I would never discourage a trans woman from finding herself based on how she looked. I know some tiny beautiful gals who are not well adjusted and some bigger more masculine gals who were like a duck to water.

Looking for 'clues' or 'reasons' is a waste of time and energy. You are who you are, come to grips with it. Life is short.

[Kate T]

At the risk of sounding a bit condescending she is a therapist dealing with gender questioning clients. I wouldn't be surprised if all of them "had" gynaecomastia, real or imagined. It is not her place to judge that.

Gynaecomastia is actually relatively common in the population generally so it isn't that surprising. Also many GD individuals have marked self esteem issues often resulting in over consumption of food and alcohol, both of which will cause gynaecomastia through different mechanisms (alcohol is quite a good testosterone inhibitor).

I never had Gynaecomastia. It was curious when I went for my original blood work prior to starting HRT that despite have very high T levels I also had VERY high SHBG (Serum Hormone Biding Globulin) meaning my free testosterone levels were actually quite low, to the point where my Endo asked if I'd ever had any trouble conceiving children. Make of that what you will but perhaps it has blessed me with a slight frame and fine features which has helped in transition.

[Kimberly Kael]

While I leaned heavily androgynous growing up I never had any physical conditions that you'd think of as any kind of "tell." I lean towards Melissa's way of thinking: a lot of trans people look for a reason, and many others wind up inventing one if they can't find anything suitable. It's never that simple. There is nothing that can be trivially interpreted as a reason and nobody is at fault. You can learn to accept who you are and find peace, or not.

[JanePeterson]

i guess this question goes a bit deeper... Is it wrong to believe in a pysiological explanation? Is is gender identity just an internal/existential realization? I know the few people I've told find comfort in the idea of a medical explanation and the limited science that supports it... But is that right/correct? Does it matter?

[PretzelGirl]

Last question first. Does it matter? I would say, does knowing it has a physiological reason change anything in your life? We tend to look for a reason when it is healthier to spend out time embracing who we are.

Having said that, we all have our curiosities. Just don't let them be a crutch. I am also Intersex and I would not be surprised to find that being transgender is determined to be another intersex condition by definition. Two things would do that (that I can come up with). One is if it is in our DNA. The other is if it is some variable in our brain. None of this will be proven anytime soon or possibly not within my lifetime. So, smile and enjoy being real!

[Kimberly Kael]

It's a perfectly reasonable question. I've certainly heard some plausible sources of influence, but ultimately I think it's important to recognize that gender is a social construct. Different societies share common genetics and yet they invent different and mutually contradictory expectations attached to gender. It's not a nice simple situation and won't yield to nice simple explanations.

Prediction: we won't find a clear genetic marker for same-sex attraction, or for people who prefer vanilla to chocolate, either.

[Eryn]

In my case, flat as a pancake until HRT.

[Robin414]

I have that 'gyno' and my doc even prescribed an 'endo' who prescribed a 'Mamo'....turns out I'm 'legit', if I weren't latent CD I'd probably be 'suicidal' but I guess I kinda saw that coming, like being on HRT, but...not 😯 I'm fluid so far, and it works?? 😦😦

[Kate T]

Sorry Kimberly, I actually disagree with the concept that gender is a social construct. I think gender EXPRESSION may be socially constructed, but the idea of a gender identity I think is inherent.

Jane, I think gender is inherent. I think that Gender, Sex and Sexuality are separate and inherent. The way we express them and they develop can be influenced by upbringing and society but we are not born Genderless, sexless or with no sexuality (though obviously sexuality takes much longer to emerge than the other 2). So it would seem clear there is SOMETHING, be it genetics, in utero embryonic development or whatever that determines our gender. What I am VERY cautious about is attributing transgender identity to some sort of "medical" explanation as I worry that it takes us one step back towards defining t as a disorder that medicine should "fix" by stopping it to start with.

[Marcelle]

Hi Jane,

With the exception of being smaller framed my phenotype is "male". My muscle mass is quite lean these days but still male. So no discernible characteristics which cannot be attributed to genetics from both parents.

Cheers

Marcelle

[LeaP]

Facts first. All human males have breasts (i.e., real, actual). All produce estrogens as well as testosterone. Under a number of extremely common, natural conditions, their breast tissue develops noticeably, usually temporarily in youth, sometimes permanently whether in youth or not, trans or not.

A lot of people spend a lot of time looking for physical cause. I firmly believe there is one (actually, several). I also firmly believe that the reason people so desperately want one is to be justified – not so much to themselves, though that plays, too – but for the sympathy and understanding of others. They want to be absolved of responsibility. Thing is, even if they could prove the physical point in their individual case, it would change nothing psychologically. It's just another way to try to substitute logic for identity. It doesn't work.

[Barbara Dugan]

I have a very mild case of Gynecomastia but it was caused by the Testosterone I took years ago. .. I have a month on T blocker and E and the first reaction I noticed was on my breasts they started to growth and get sensitive almost immediately.
I still think both issues have not relationship

[Michelle789]

I had a number of female features before starting on estrogen.

My hands are smaller than the average male, but larger than the average 6 foot tall female. They are shaped more female, and I have the stereotypical female digit ratio, both visually and when I measure.

My feet are smaller and feminine shaped.

My legs are female shape & appearance.

I too had small breasts before starting HRT. They have gotten considerably larger since being on HRT. I am probably just below a B cup at this point.

I still had a lot of masculinization though. Especially my facial hair and body hair, which caused me great dysphoria, along with the overall appearance of my face & body. When I finally got my entire body waxed two years ago I was able to appreciate my hands more, since their true feminine glory was revealed when removing the hair which masked them and made them look very manly.

I'm not sure if our features necessarily reveal our gender identity. I know of transwomen who had fully masculine features. I know of cismen who have some feminine features. Gynecomastia is actually quite common in men. Some cis men have small hands and feet, and some cis women have large hands and feet.

[Kate T]

.....They want to be absolved of responsibility. Thing is, even if they could prove the physical point in their individual case, it would change nothing psychologically. It's just another way to try to substitute logic for identity. It doesn't work......

I agree Lea. Irrespective of whether there is an underlying physiologic / genetic / biologic "cause" we cannot and should not get away from the fact that we choose to do something about it and thus take on the responsibility of the consequences of that choice, both good and bad.

[pamela7]

that's easy to say if you've always known your gender. Speaking for myself only, I just spent 9 intense months asking myself this before emerging into knowing. Part of that involved undoing any such associations, to leave the bare me. It does not matter now the cause if there even was one. I don't see it at all as absolving of responsibility though. What happens next is down to us each.

PS I've spent the 12 years working at identity-level change in human development/therapy etc, and this genderness is the dooziest of all, beyond any form of dissociative trauma conditioning.

[Rianna Humble]

Irrespective of whether there is an underlying physiologic / genetic / biologic "cause" we cannot and should not get away from the fact that we choose to do something about it

Yes Kate, what we choose to do about it is to survive rather than commit suicide - which normally causes immense distress to those left behind.

[Kate T]

Indeed Rianna. I never meant it was a bad or even a selfish choice. In fact honestly I think it is the hardest possible choice and also the least selfish. We choose to face the truth, to no longer lie to others for our own benefit (i.e. to maintain a social or emotional advantage). Absolving ourselves of the responsibility of choosing though through handing decision making to others who are more "knowledgable" medically or psychologically does not help us, it belittles us as individuals. I don't just choose to survive, I choose truth and to be a better person.

[becky77]

I think what Rianna is getting at, is that it doesn't feel like a choice.
You 'Choose' a black car or a red car, you 'need' to Transition.

For some of use 'Choose' feels like a blow. I didn't choose to be this way, however use of the word choose plays into the hands of all those that doubt our Female identity.
Choose implies a lifestyle choice.

Perhaps for you it was a lifestyle choice?

Btw if science could fix this at birth, I would have chosen that!
Because fix implies you're broken and I sure know that feeling.

[Kate T]

I think we may have crossed meanings. I don't mean we chose to be who we are. We could choose to continue lying. Or we could choose to opt out of life completely. I chose to do something about it. I chose to be true to myself and everyone I care about. I wasn't forced into it, no one and nothing made me or forced me to transition. My choice and I'm proud of it. So far people have respected that and honestly admired me for choosing to be true.

[pamela7]

very interesting Becky, because i would not un-choose this, if there were some medication to make my mind/self male i'd not take it, my life path is taking me down this road. It's also not a choice, it's a decision that has become inevitable.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I would take medicine to have not gone through all this..

I would take medicine to have always lived my true gender...which gender? flip a coin..

[becky77]

very interesting Becky, because i would not un-choose this, if there were some medication to make my mind/self male i'd not take it, my life path is taking me down this road. It's also not a choice, it's a decision that has become inevitable.

I'm referring to Kate T's mention of being fixed at birth, if it was fixable at birth I would be happy in my gender whatever that was, so much of my life has been altered by GD.
I don't really care which Gender I would have been as long as I could feel as one with myself. That happens to be female now, but if it was fixed at birth I wouldn't know any different.

It would only be worth fixing before you ever gained life experience and personality, after that it's a moot point.

Kate T - I haven't missed your meaning, I'm trying to say I would not choose to Transition, I had to Transition.
I don't think one chooses to commit suicide, I think they are too far gone to see any other option.

[LeaP]

Self responsibility is the heart of transition. It has many aspects. Self-knowledge. Self actualization. Moral, emotional, and intellectual ownership.

Like most words, "choice" may be understood (or misunderstood) in several ways. Here, it should be understood as acting affirmatively, i.e., exercising agency or deciding in the moral sense, and not in the sense of simple selection between alternatives.

"Transition or die" and affirmatively deciding to transition are not mutually exclusive. Who would deny the basic right to live to anyone so desperate? Yet better still is one who has worked through the crisis and transitions because it is the right thing to do. Why? Because the first will still have to work through the crisis anyway. In fact, they may be worse off for having to transition in such psychological circumstances. They also assume risk because crisis can cloud clarity and judgment.

The gist of my earlier responsibility comment, though, is that when people say they are transitioning BECAUSE they would otherwise die, they are describing themselves as victims. Why do people do this? Simple - moral pressure. They offset the onslaught of those who challenge what they are doing by responding with a no choice position. The challengers are virtually always doing so on a moral or ethical basis. The no choice response attempts (mostly unsuccessfully) to take it off the table.

My turning point on responsibility was a therapy session in which I was complaining about my wife complaining about me! About how I was responsible for this consequence or that decision. My therapist's response? "Well, you are!" That stopped me cold, and I spent a long, long time sorting through what it really meant.

That Jane's seemingly innocent question on female characteristics implicates this is obviated by a number of responses. It's the same excited justification that drives so many other threads ... and issues. What better way to create a (dare I say it?) hierarchy than to start a round of "can you top this"? As people chime in with their digit ratios, hand and foot sizes, early childhood memory specifics, dressing patterns, childhood friends, how they were bullied, sexual history, where they think they fall on the Benjamin scale, what age they started transition, their hormonal history, penis size (smaller being better here) and what age their testicles descended, their height, voice tone, emotional sensitivity, etc., right down to how much they just love pink and even citing their stupid COGIATI score ... everyone is judged, ranked, and ultimately justified. Or not.

All of which makes no difference whatsoever.

[Laura912]

In response to the OP, I had very tender nipples and breast tissue to the extent we had a neighbor Pediatrician check who reassured my parents that it was not uncommon in males during puberty. Were they ever tender!!

[Rachel292]

I've had Gynaecomastia, ever since puberty (i'm going to be 60 next month). When I was about age 20 (mid 1970's) some of my large group of friends, bought me a bra, as a joke. They didn't and most still don't know about me being trans. At the time it was only closet dressing, and I was really embarrassed. They don't know how close to the truth they were.
I only recently (a few years ago) accepted myself. I've not officially been on E , but I have over the last 6 months or so, taken a herbal breast boost supplement/cream. And they have definitely got bigger, breast shaped and with I believe breast tissue underneath, and the nipples are sore if poked/prodded/squeezed. They are about an A cup (on a 39" chest). I get away with natural cleavage, when using large chicken fillets in a B cup bra. I worked on the basis that there was something there , so a booster cream may do something/work. Hopefully when I eventually get to the GIC , i'll be officially prescribed E/HRT, and i'll get a significant increase.

[becky77]

LeaP I think you are kinda stating the obvious, on some level it's always a choice, it's just that 'to choose' seems an inadequate word.

I mean if you lost all your money and the only option left was to live under the bridge or on the street, it doesn't really ring true that you 'Chose to live on the streets', that simplifies the issue to make it almost sound like that was your preference.

When the options left are both difficult paths choosing one bad option over another isn't exactly a choice rather it's having to take the necessary action.
Being positive I chose to Transition and improve my way of life, but the reality is at that time I was at such a low point that Transition was the only option left, I had tried the other route and failed at it.
I'm not shirking responsibility just telling it how it is.
I've never had that conversation with a therapist because I know what I have done has an impact, I own it even though I still feel some guilt.
I don't shrug my shoulders and say poor me it's not my fault, I'm just saying to imply I chose this also implies I could have chosen not to Transition, if it's all a matter of choice why Transition at all?

Intellectual ownership is all well and good, but in my opinion being born a man and yet identifying as a woman is all about how you feel, you can't really reason with it. Transition for most seems to happen when those feelings can't be contained anymore and in my case as in a lot I read it all spills out and once loose dramatically overtakes you. You know you should plan and execute it all correctly, dot the I's and cross the T's but like Pandoras box, once open it's all Chaos for a while.

I wonder if you overthink this sometimes, you are very intelligent but can you really make sound reason why we blow up our lives and risk all to do something so drastic?
People ruin good careers and lose family by transitioning, is that a choice and is it intellectually sound?

[LeaP]

Contrary to appearances, my post has nothing to do with preference and nothing to do with reason.

Regarding your last question, people don't choose ruining careers and losing families, and the decision to transition isn't an intellectual one. They may transition feeling the losses are certain, but the threads tying decisions and consequences end up being pretty tenuous. Another way to put it is that judgements about outcomes are moral, ethical, and philosophical points of view. Is a given divorce good or bad? A split with one's family necessarily a loss? Conversely, is being yourself "good"?

The message isn't making intellectually sound decisions (though I wouldn't dismiss that). It is finding, then acting on identity that is real, but ineffable. Until that happens, all the concern about consequences comes out of the urge to control. When it does happen, consequences may properly be irrelevant to decisions, even when they have real impact.

Do I overthink? Does all this matter? Maybe. As so often said, transition is an individual matter. Much of mine is unwinding how I've understood the world. Not to replace it with another version, but to allow life itself. Transition represents my one shot at reality. I will blow it if I don't emerge as a conscious agent, able to *experience* things as they are and not as I would like them. Someone recently wrote to me citing the implications of something I wrote. That comment latched on to the visceral nature of what I'm trying to describe.

[becky77]

It will all come out in the wash.

This is bizarre but I have found I'm quickly forgetting and disconnecting with how I was before going full-time. To the point I actually forget how strong the GD was, it's so easy to be absorbed with the next stage of the journey that even the fear of coming out has dimmed in significance.

I wonder how long it will be before my pre-transition experience is far less useful than those currently going through it, purely because I am becoming immune to the magnitude of the entire process.

Already much of this stuff is just everyday life and I'm in danger of being too casual to those facing the fear of going full-time.
It's quite amazing how well we can adapt.

So I'm not allowed to talk about my feminine digit ratio? Lol.
Cause I wasn't gifted with small feet that's for sure!

[arbon]

Not bizarre at all. I've felt much the same way.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's not bizarre at all..i feel much the same way too

its the whole point

[Dana44]

For me as long as I can remember I've had boobs. But I'm a DES kid and that synthetic estrogen washed over me. But now I have B size bobs on a 38 inch chest. The doctor gave me testosterone and took me of of it in two weeks as it was kicking my prostrate BTH i think that is what you call it. anyways I had to take Saw pimento to counteract it for six months after. I looked up and several doctors said that the estrogen is the only path for our bodies. I had no problem with kids but only had girls. No males. but now my body is in great shape but still have breast tissue of B size.

[Badtranny]

This is bizarre but I have found I'm quickly forgetting and disconnecting with how I was before going full-time.!

Nope, totally normal which is why I'm always yapping about being honest. I went full-time in the Spring of 2012 and in some ways it feels like a lifetime ago. To the new girls it IS a lifetime and they can't begin to understand what it's like for girls of my vintage or older. How could they? I am a completely different person than I was then and I don't even care now about a lot of stuff that I used to be very passionate about.

My experience is legit and maybe helpful but it's probably not all that relevant to girls pulling the pin today. The world is a different place now than it was before Caitlyn, Laverne, Jazz and Maura. (keep in mind that many of the girls here that I now call friends were my inspiration)

The new girls need to give their own brutally honest reports from the field of transition. They need to report all of the tiny aggressions and mild humiliations that they experience because the new girls on the fence are having an increasingly hard time relating to girls like me. So if you're transitioning, then be honest about what's happening to you and how it makes you feel. The sisters that are coming up behind you deserve nothing less.

[PretzelGirl]

Another vote on feeling disconnected from our prior self. I felt that way before I hit a year. I think that, at least for me, it was the settling in to the natural feeling. You stay connected with natural feelings but it is easier to disconnect from behavior and feelings that weren't so natural. And it is an interesting observation from Becky that she even feels disconnected from prior GD levels. I never thought about it before but with that thought planted, I can agree. If I try and imagine what I felt like the day I decided on therapy, I can't imagine it. Thank you! That is a nice feeling.

[pamela7]

what Becky, Melissa and Sue report is the same phenomenon in my work. As people heal they lose any sense of the problems or life before that reintegration and undoing of traumas, and it sounds like the same as when a person transitions from one self to a new self also (not only the gender transition but all kinds leading to being more the authntic self). No surprise there i guess, but interesting and affirming.

And Melissa's words about recent/ongoing transitioners documenting what it's like is invaluable advice.