Bathroom stress test

[AngelaYVR]

Was in The Bay department store using the ladies' facilities this evening. Was just about to leave the stall when two women came in complaining about men in the lingerie department. "Why are they there? Trying on bras? Are they crossdressers?" They talked about really appreciating the policy of not letting men into the lingerie changing rooms. Needless to say, my hand had paused on the latch and I was waiting for them to leave. I'm not entirely sure what The Bay's policy is regarding this, if anything. They are certainly happy enough to sell me things and they don't have a handicap/family room that I know of.

I'm not reopening the Great Bathroom Debate™, more so just reporting on my close call. If I do say so myself, I was presenting very nicely but the women seemed quite upset and might have been in the mood for blood. I think I will have to phone the store this week and make inquiries.

[suzanne]

Well that kinda stinks. Sorry you had to experience that. I have had a lot of positive experiences with using the change rooms in that store, although I haven't been in the lingerie department. The SA's have been very accommodating to me. The biggest problem I've had is poor selection in the plus sizes, so I'm not there very often. Were the women you overheard customers or sales staff?

[AngelaYVR]

Oh, I can meander through the whole store without problem and have used regular and the lingerie change rooms, this was the bathroom. I would assume the two women to be customers, sounded around 30 or so. I wonder what what have transpired if I was out of the stall when they came in?

[Jenniferathome]

They wouldn't have said a word. You just don't know the back story

[MelanieAnne]

I'm not reopening the Great Bathroom Debate

Nor am I. But it was an eye opening experience, and something to be aware of. I wish I had a dollar for every time I was browsing in the lingerie dept, or dresses, or womens shoes, and some woman, usually older, started staring at me, or walked up and stood close to me and made me uncomfortable.

[Jenniferathome]

Try to get some perspective. Women grow up being told to fear and avoid men doing anything remotely "not typical." Every girl is taught the perverts will rape them. I have two girls and I have warned them about the freaks out there. Women learn tolerance but the seed of fear is planted early and often. It has to be. For my daughter's safety, unlike Blackstone's doctrine, it's better that all men be suspected rather than just the guilty. The innocent can suck it up.

[AngelaYVR]

I can appreciate that there probably was a story behind their conversation, my point was that I was almost caught in their crossfire (or I think I might have been). More of a here and now issue for me at the time rather than a philosophical pondering.

[KimberlyJean]

Have you ever noticed how many women are shopping in the mens sections though? A while back I was at Academy sports and there were women in the men's section acting like I was violating their space. It felt like the times when I was in the women's section.

[IamWren]

I love how you put the trademark symbol on 'Great Bathroom Debate' Angela.

I've seen your pictures Angela and your posts seem to give away a pretty level head which add up to you blending very well so I have to disagree with Jennifer that they wouldn't have said a word had you been out of the stall. That is really here not there though. It's stories like this that make me think twice (or more like a hundred times over) about heading out out into the big wide world as Sayyidah.

[docrobbysherry]

I don't need the stress and hassles of shopping dressed, Angela.

But, I have more than once NOT left a Ladies Room stall in a vanilla club or venue until the GG voices of those fixing their makeup drifted out of the room!:straightface:

[heatherdress]

Try to get some perspective. Women grow up being told to fear and avoid men doing anything remotely "not typical." Every girl is taught the perverts will rape them. I have two girls and I have warned them about the freaks out there. Women learn tolerance but the seed of fear is planted early and often. It has to be. For my daughter's safety, unlike Blackstone's doctrine, it's better that all men be suspected rather than just the guilty. The innocent can suck it up.

It is more than just something girls are taught. 1 in 5 girls are sexually abused. 1 in 6 women are victims of rape or attempted rape. Victims are subject to anxiety, fear and depression. I love someone who was sexually assaulted - and even though she is quite open-minded, she absolutely fears the thought of encountering a male in the ladies room. This is not an issue of the low number of crossdressers who would assault anyone in a bathroom. It is simply a lifelong fear based upon a traumatic event.

It is probably most considerate to be aware of possible feelings of anxiety that some women have and act with discretion.

[Shelly Preston]

Just to balance the story a little I know you had a close call Angela. I had a similar one a while back but for different reasons. I can honestly say that 99.9 % of the time there has never been a problem for me. I have had women ask for my help or even just start a conversation.

[Sara Jessica]

Not so much the Great Bathroom Debate™ but the Great Lingerie-Store-Changing-Room Debate®. Many will disagree with my POV but I generally feel that dudes presenting as dudes should avoid trying on lingerie in women's fitting rooms. At least when presenting as female, there is that half-second where others perceive you as such before making the TG connection which goes a long way to disarm a negative reaction. Not a guarantee of course but this is a situation where a little empathy goes a long way.

[Sarasometimes]

Glad you didn't get caught in the mix if there was going to be one. My father used to say, "Your rights end when they violate someone else's." Now this is not to cause a debate but the issue becomes, who interprets when and how this may have occurred. If an issue is made the store may need to pick a side and they may not pick ours. I just try to avoid the stress i feel when I venture into a multi-stall ladies room. Now this is not as easy as my plumbing is aging....

[I Am Paula]

I'm only going to comment on the Bay, and Canada. I'm sure they follow the law of the land. In every Canadian province you are expected to use the facility to which you are presenting. Note the word presenting- Does this include men in dresses with beards? It does not account for those who feel another gender, but are not yet presenting that way. Despite being a very good law, you can see it is still subject to some interpretation.
If you are presenting fully as a woman, but not (I hate the word) passable, you would be expected to use the lady's. Androgynous, use your birth facility, and just plain a gender non conforming, your still safest in the family single person washroom.
Nobody in Canada has been arrested or prosecuted.

[Jenniferathome]

Not so much the Great Bathroom Debate™ but the Great Lingerie-Store-Changing-Room Debate®. Many will disagree with my POV but I generally feel that dudes presenting as dudes should avoid trying on lingerie in women's fitting rooms. At least when presenting as female, there is that half-second where others perceive you as such before making the TG connection which goes a long way to disarm a negative reaction. Not a guarantee of course but this is a situation where a little empathy goes a long way.

BOOM! This is the perfect answer!

[reb.femme]

...For my daughter's safety, unlike Blackstone's doctrine, it's better that all men be suspected rather than just the guilty. The innocent can suck it up.

Just sometimes, guilty until proven innocent does have its appeal but not all of us freaks out here are dangerous, I'll have you know :heehee:.


Angela,

I think 'discretion being the better part of valour' dictates in situations like this. I too, would have parked my derriere for a while longer and let the possible storm move on, before venturing out of the safety and anonymity provided by the cubicle. :)

Becky

[Allisa]

I don't blame you ,I probably would have reacted the same way, no need for confrontation of any kind and I've had my fair share, it sounded as though the "males" were there presenting as their male self and drew on the fears of the women exposing themselves in the dressing room and their misinformation about CDers.

[AngelaYVR]

With regard to what exactly set the women off in the first place, it was not absolutely clear from their dialogue. The Bay does not allow men (unless presenting as women) into the lingerie area changing rooms anyway but that part is rather moot: it could just as easily been something they read about in the paper or saw on TV that got them riled. I was not in the lingerie section that day so I can't comment.

I think that even if I knew I was 100% within my rights to be in that bathroom, I still would have acted the same and waited for them to leave before emerging.

Paula, I am assuming you have received good advice on that law? Does it apply to all bathrooms that are accessible by the public?

[Alice Torn]

Angela, I would have done the same thing, stayed in the safety of the stall until they were well gone. Confrontation with all its out of control emotions, is hell on earth! i am afraid we are still a long way before there is real equality. Of course, if a man is out to rape or harm, he gives up equality. Sadly, the few bad asses make it bad for us nice ones. I have been next to many women in mens departments , and like it or not, there is a double standard.

[Leslie Langford]

Angela, I can't comment on what the Hudson's Bay's policies on the Left Coast are with regards to men when "dressed" (TG or otherwise) using the women's lingerie or clothing fitting rooms, or else their restrooms for that matter. But what I can say from personal experience is that I have used those very facilities in virtually every Hudson's Bay store located within the Greater Toronto Area over the last several years and have never, ever had a problem doing so.

Then again, I always make sure that my female presentation is impeccable (well, as much as what Nature gave me allows for, anyways ;)), and I always dress stylishly and age-appropriately. I typically try to present as an elegant, urbane lady "of a certain age" who looks as if she has money (NOT!), and this invariably gets the SA's to drooling and falling all over me. Maybe they read me; maybe they don't - in the end, I don't care...it's the service, personal attention, and courteous treatment that counts, and I always get that in spades at all the Hudson's Bay stores. My sense is that they are quite TG-friendly in general from their HQ on down (if nothing else, money does talk!), and I once posted a favourable review to the website of their on-line store regarding one of their Lauren/Chaps dresses that I had just purchased while fully identifying myself as a crossdresser in the process. Not only was it accepted, the review actually stayed there until that that particular dress was sold out, and it even attracted a couple of "yes-es" to the usual "Did you find this review helpful?" question from other shoppers who subsequently read it.

As for the women's restrooms in most of the Hudson's Bay stores that I have been in...never had a problem there even with other GG's present, but then again, these are not the kinds of places that anyone would want to hang around in for any length of time anyway. While generally clean, most of them - like the their men's counterparts - are dark, dingy, and in various states of disrepair, and it is clear that refurbishing them was not high on the Bay's priority lists when it came to the multi-million dollar modernization makeovers most of their stores underwent in the last several years.

One thing that I have found to be particularly curious about the Hudson's Bay stores is that their clothing fitting rooms generally have full-length louvered doors to close them off for complete privacy, whereas the ones in the lingerie sections typically come with very short, saloon-type doors that provide only a modicum of coverage. Wouldn't logic dictate that at the very least, it should be the other way around as one exposes far more of oneself when trying on lingerie? Mind you, this hasn't stopped me from using them from time to time, even if a fair amount of ducking is required as I try different items on.:eek: It does, however, increase the risk factor of coming upon a GG who wouldn't take too kindly to my presence there if discovered, so exercising the utmost discretion and taking great care to stay under the radar are certainly the better part of valour here... :o

[AngelaYVR]

Well Leslie, that is certainly good info and truthfully, reflects my much shorter time exploring the nooks and crannies of my local. However, I will say that the bathroom is phenomenal - like something out of a magazine for the upper echelons of public loos. I wouldn't mind a nice wicker chair in the corner and a magazine. The lin-ger-eeee changing room doors are also full height, so no awkward conversations with your cell mates.

I figured it was a collision of events that I was there at the time and business as usual. I must admit, I thought at first that they knew I was there and we're making loud comments for my benefit!