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susancheerleader
02-17-2006, 05:13 PM
It doesn't take a math major to see that the Male to Female thread has more users.
So that got me to wondering. Are there GGs that "cross dress" but don't believe they are because society allows it? Thus, they wouldn't consider themselves a cross dresser.
When a person sees a girl dressed in mens trousers, and a mans shirt, no one thinks about it. Even if the girl has no intention to pass. But when a guy wears anything then what society considers "men’s clothing" then we are considered freaks of nature UNLESS we go out of our way to "pass" Even then it is questionable what people think. I see this as a double standard and seeing the difference between male to female and female to male forums make me wonder even more. Is the difference because of society accepting, or because you don't consider yourself a cross dresser or because there really aren’t that many female to male dressers? Which goes back to the “why” question.

Kimberley
02-17-2006, 06:18 PM
Susan, I agree with you 100%. IT IS A DOUBLE STANDARD! At least in most cases.

My wife thinks nothing of raiding my closets for shirts (I have some gorgeous real silk ones that she is particularly fond of), ties, or my dresser for socks or taking a coat or my hiking boots etc etc. She doesnt see this as crossdressing in any way but ANY attempt in the past by me to crossdress using my own clothing (I would never use hers) has been near suicide. Go figure.

Arrrrrrrgggghhhhh!

Hugs to all.
Kimberley

mistunderstood
02-17-2006, 06:24 PM
I can were mens clothes and no one cares. I think because people do not reconize it. Mens dress shirts,pants,coats are similer to womens. For M2F when you wear a skirt it is easier to spot. I think it is the skirt. Please I mean no offence.I try to just be part of the crowd. Guys are not really flashy.
F2M's are small in numbers becase we do not know were to go. If you research available resources out there it is more for M2F's. We are silent brother's and I have seen a surge in numbers since I have joined this group. I have been on-line looking for my brother's out there and we are coming out so as word spreads you might see more of us.

Please everyone take no offence to anything I have writen. It is just what I think.

Kimberley
02-17-2006, 06:39 PM
I can were mens clothes and no one cares. I think because people do not reconize it. Mens dress shirts,pants,coats are similer to womens. For M2F when you wear a skirt it is easier to spot. I think it is the skirt. Please I mean no offence.I try to just be part of the crowd. Guys are not really flashy.
F2M's are small in numbers becase we do not know were to go. If you research available resources out there it is more for M2F's. We are silent brother's and I have seen a surge in numbers since I have joined this group. I have been on-line looking for my brother's out there and we are coming out so as word spreads you might see more of us.

Please everyone take no offence to anything I have writen. It is just what I think.
*********
Misunderstood,

Why would anyone here take offense? I think you guys are great! All the more power to you. Something I have noticed here is that you guys all have a greater sense of self than most of us M2F's. There seems to be a greater peace with who you are and where you are going.

I also think you guys are focused on transition moreso than the rest of us so again that makes a difference too.

As you said though, society just isnt ready for men in tights... no pun intended.

I wonder if they will ever be tolerant. Acceptance is highly unlikely for us.

HUGS.
Kimberley.

(Great thread)

Butterfly Bill
02-17-2006, 06:43 PM
When a woman regularly wears men's pants and shirt, and is never seen in a dress or skirt, lot of people (i included) will start to infer that she is a lesbian. I have observed this style of dress being preferred by a number of friends and acquaintances who were (like at the Unity Church of Lawrence). I was at a Hunter Davis concert and there wasn't a single person out of maybe 100 in that room who didn't have trousers on.

SherriePall
02-17-2006, 06:52 PM
I once had this argument with my wife. I said that she wore pants. But they're women's pants, she replied. Maybe, but at one time women could not wear pants. In fact, if I remember correctly several large cities had laws against women wearing pants.
Anyhow, if I was really thinking that day, I would have reminded her that women's pants at one time had the zipper on the side. Remember those, anyone? Now they have the zipper in front just like men's pants which have them there for a reason I can't remember.

mistunderstood
02-17-2006, 07:09 PM
Sometimes it is hard for me to write my opinon down and watch out for the verbal language of the wide world of C/D'ing. Every place has it slange words and I try not to be a complete idiot and assume we all use the same words.

Kimberley
02-17-2006, 07:20 PM
Sometimes it is hard for me to write my opinon down and watch out for the verbal language of the wide world of C/D'ing. Every place has it slange words and I try not to be a complete idiot and assume we all use the same words.
***************
Personally I really dont see a whole lot of difference when you come right down to it. All of us have some sort of "gender dysphoria" if you want to be clinical about it. I think some of us are more willing than others to accept that. I for one have no illusions about myself, where I have been, where I am, or, well.... who knows?

I think that if our histories were written there would be more similarities than differences so please dont hesitate to put your ideas down, and in your own words. Everything else is semantics. They (your ideas) will be respected.

Hugs.
Kimberley.

CaptLex
02-17-2006, 11:36 PM
Are there GGs that "cross dress" but don't believe they are because society allows it? Thus, they wouldn't consider themselves a cross dresser. Is the difference because of society accepting, or because you don't consider yourself a cross dresser or because there really aren’t that many female to male dressers? Which goes back to the “why” question.

Hmmm . . . good questions. :doh: Never really thought about it much before, but here's my answer, if you're really interested.

For most of my life I have worn pants (or trousers for our friends across the pond), "sensible" shoes and other clothing such as sweaters, shirts and blazers that I considered women's clothes because they were made for the size and shape of my body - that is, a female body. These clothes also contained colors and patterns that are considered feminine, so I never thought of these as male clothing and never considered myself a crossdresser when I wore them. I cannot speak for GG's, but I imagine most of them may feel the same way.

The difference for me now is that, although I still wear some clothing that is made for a female body, most of these have more masculine patterns, textures and colors, and the rest of my wardrobe now consists of decidedly male items such as ties, vests, and clothing sold exclusively at men's stores. Now I do consider myself a crossdresser and I still don't believe that most women are crossdressing when they wear pants or shirts because those are pants or shirts that were made specifically for women (with the possible exception of those that borrow their husband's clothes).

Again, I can't speak for GG's and I can't even speak for other FtMs, but I think it's more about self-image and attitude. I considered myself mostly female before and now I've come to see that the pendulum has swung the other way and I'm mostly male, so I want my outward appearance to reflect that. It's what makes me comfortable and makes me feel more like me. So, for me, the clothes don't make the man - the man is already there or he isn't and a pair of pants doesn't make a female a crossdresser.

Savvy? ;)

Gilded Graper
02-18-2006, 08:32 AM
Small history of Anti F2M CD in old NYC to not so old SF.

In 1960, NYC had laws against crossdressing on top of the anti GLBT society all arounds us. No wonder I knew just about every 24/7-F2M CD, all 4 of them!

Soon after Stonewall the women's liberation and lesbians attacked the F2M community as a being ashamed of being a woman.

Even in the mid 1980's, my F2M pre-op TS pal was not allowed in or asked to leave, at EVERY lesbian bar in San Francisco.

"We don't want your kind here," was one direct quote and she was with a group of all lebians. This was Amelia on Lesbian Lane.

Yet ALL of them allowed HRT queens in !!!

By 1992, Castro (male gay area) many F2M were there, had mustache and/or stubbles, with gay men's hair cut and wearing the latest Gay men fashion.

They reminded me of 1960, when the street queens looked like butch dykes... that's what antidrag laws made queens look like.

Then there's the old F2M in the 1920's, who about the diapearance of 24/7-F2M and bemoaned how women's liberation had taken away "the sense of (F2M) advenure" From Johnathan Katz's "Gay American History" 1st ed.

Helen MC
02-18-2006, 09:03 AM
Over here in the UK it has generally been easier for a female to wear male clothing. WW2 helped here as not only were there women in the Industries replacing men who had been called-up to the Forces, but there were also the ATS and WRAC, WRENS and WAAFS, Women's Land Army where women were in Uniform albeit in non-combat roles. In many of these situations, both Industrial and Forces they had to wear trousers (pants to US readers) and other rather masculine clothing. After the war rationing over here including clothing continued into the mid 1950s and many women did continue to wear trousers. I can remember my Mum wearing these, she called them "slacks" but they were trousers and the likes of Conductresses on buses etc wore then as their uniform as it "preserved their modesty" that is hid their knickers when they went upstairs on a double deck bus :( :thumbsdn: .

Unless she comes out and makes a "statement" of it a woman who for sexual or other reasons wishes to wear male clothes has had it a lot easier than a male to female CD like most of us who post here. She can wear the most butch and macho clothing and nobody would bat an eyelid and also can buy male clothing such as male underpants etc and nobody is the slightest bit concerned as they will assume that she is buying these for her husband, boyfriend, son, etc. She can then wear them herself if she wants to under her trousers or even under her skirt if she is wearing one and nobody would be any the wiser. Indeed we now have "Boy Leg" briefs for women, not that I would want to wear these myself, but I simply cannot see "Girl Style" panties being marketed for men. In contrast to this even today a man buying female undies such as panties, bras slips etc, even if he is well versed in the cover story that these are for his wife etc and knows the correct size (his own) is still likely to be looked upon in a strange way and even have unwanted comments addressed to him by female sales staff at the counter or check-out when a woman buying male underpants attracts no attention nor comment.

Of course unless he is very convincing, e.g. Ru Paul, Dana International, some Thai Katoi, a man in "drag" to use the common parlance, is likely to be identified as such and unlike his female equivalent F to M CD is seen as a threat, an insult to masculinity and often attracts verbal and physical abuse.

CaptLex
02-18-2006, 01:46 PM
Of course unless he is very convincing . . . a man in "drag" . . . is likely to be identified as such and unlike his female equivalent F to M CD is seen as a threat, an insult to masculinity and often attracts verbal and physical abuse.

Some good points in your post, Helen, but I beg to differ on this one. FtMs are also seen as a threat, an insult to femininity (and even to lesbianism) and can also attract verbal and physical abuse. It may not make the papers very often, but it happens. :mad:

Butterfly Bill
02-18-2006, 08:50 PM
I remember this: it is 1965, I am stationed at NAS North Island in the middle of San Diego Bay, and my sister who lives in LA is down visiting me with her husband, and we are walking around Coronado looking for a place to eat, and she is telling me, "We have to remember now that I am in pants, and a woman can't go just anywhere wearing pants." This is as late as the 60s.

gennee
02-18-2006, 09:31 PM
I see your point and I agree with you. The gay community sees transgenders as a threat. I don't see the logic in their fears since we face the same discrimination as they. I know there's FTM's out there who are still closeted.As a MTF I would love for Ftm's to be heard and noticed.

Gennee:angel:

Marlena Dahlstrom
02-19-2006, 12:27 AM
Women wearing pants is no longer crossdressing in Western culture because women successfully appropriated them during the past century. (Also it should be pointed out they typically wear men's-styled clothing, not actual men's clothing.) But when women first started wearing pants it was considered taboo gender bending and things like Deut. 22:5 were invoked against them. As late as the 1960s women might get sent home from work for wearing pants. (Incidently, let's dispell the myth that "women can wear whatever they want." A GG in hooker-wear at the mall will get stared at just as much as a CD would.)

But the bigger issue is the (unfortunately still unequal) status of men and women. FTM crossdressing has a long history and was often tacitly accepted because it was considered "natural" that women would aspire to the greater freedoms and opportunities afforded men. (The Catholic church actually has a number of female saints who were crossdressers, most notably Joan of Arc, who was actually burned for crossdressing not heresy.) Whereas the rare publically-known historical cases of crossdressing invariably involved men who were powerful enough to get away with the potential loss of status involved in imitating women.

(See the Bullough's "Cross Dressing, Sex, and Gender" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=adahlshous-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&path=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2F 0812214315%2Fqid%3D1140326468%2Fsr%3D1-1%2Fref%3Dsr_1_1%3Fs%3Dbooks%26v%3Dglance%26n%3D28 3155) for a detailed account of crossdressing in Western history.)

daniellalee
02-19-2006, 12:45 AM
It is all a question of fads. Styles of dress for men and women have all changed drastically through the ages. There was a fad in europe where feminine dressing men were considered manly. It is all a sign of the times. the truth is most MTF crossdressers are trying there best to look like women anyway. Women wearing pants is not considered crossdressing anymore because fads have changed. Most women who wear pants or a guys shirt are not trying to look like a guy. Women who do make the extra effort to look like men are still considered taboo. It seems society deems it ok for a girl to dress like a boy as long as you can still tell she is a girl. :bonk:

Helen MC
02-19-2006, 11:46 AM
It saddens me that one sexual minority who know only too well the feel of negative discrimination and abuse will attack another, e.g. Lesbians who are nasty to F to M CDs and Male Homosexuals who rail against M to F CDs. I was once in a bar in my home town where a man who was known as a Gay Activist and thus quite open in his Homosexuality was speaking about TVs and referred to one as "a Dirty little Tranny" . He was of course unaware of my being a CD albeit only at home alone. I would have thought that a united front against bigotry and Red-neck abuse would be a far better policy.

Now how would you consider the man I saw yesterday? I have seen this fellow before in my town so he must be a local or perhaps visits often. I was in a shopping mall and seated at a table outside one of the cafe's was a man in his early 20s and his girlfriend/wife. Now both were wearing identical outfits. Black velvet jackets and black blouses, but the important part was that both had on black pleated skirts (not a kilt) about a couple of inches above the knee. Both also wore black knee length boots . I have to admit that as they sat down I had a look up their skirts, she had on a pair of yellow panties, his were pale blue. He was not trying to pass as a female as he had a proper black beard, not a goatee or one of those silly black lines or chin beards that some modern men wear. He also was flat chested the skirt and panties were the only female clothing he was wearing as far as I could see. My guess is that he could be a fetishistic CD who enjoys wearing the same clothing as his female SO and especially likes to wear a skirt rather than trousers.

CaptLex
02-19-2006, 06:19 PM
Most women who wear pants or a guys shirt are not trying to look like a guy. Women who do make the extra effort to look like men are still considered taboo. It seems society deems it ok for a girl to dress like a boy as long as you can still tell she is a girl. :bonk:

You've hit the nail on the head, hon. That's exactly the point I was trying to make (in my own verbose way). Thanks. :clap:

susancheerleader
02-19-2006, 09:38 PM
Women who do make the extra effort to look like men are still considered taboo. It seems society deems it ok for a girl to dress like a boy as long as you can still tell she is a girl. :bonk:

So, why can't a guy wear a skirt (not a kilt) or something, and still "look like a man" with a beard or whatever. You can still tell HE is a MAN.

daniellalee
02-20-2006, 12:10 AM
I wish guys could just wear whatever they want whether or not they still look like a guy or not and i wish a girl could just wear what they want even if they look like a guy but again it's all about fads. It's not fashionable for a guy to wear a skirt in America and other countries at this time. Perhaps someday it will be. It used to be unfashionable for women to wear pants but now it is totally accepted by most people. Look to the things that inspire the masses, the media, musicians, fashion, etc. These things will create subcultures that grow and become ideals of society.

Bev06 GG
02-20-2006, 05:09 PM
Hi Susan,

Who said that life is fair. I have a partner who dresses and I know he would be ridiculed if it were to become common knowledge. I also have a tom boy daughter, who altho only ten, is adamant that she wants to be a boy, and always has done. If she continued down that line I doubt whether she would get a second glance, because as you so rightly pointed out it is more accepted. It does make you wonder whether or not it has anything to do with women standing up for their rights and fighting for equality. Maybe we got more than we bargained for when we chained ourselves to the railings, and have become more equal. Or maybe its just that fellas that want to dress up are regarded as sissy's, and women who want to dress up are considered to be strong, independant, self reliant individuals.
I dunno
Take care
BEVxxx

Kimberley
02-20-2006, 06:09 PM
Interesting points.

It does seem odd though that Jean-Paul Gaultier, one of the world's premier (if not a little eccentric) fashion designers couldnt seem to make the breakthrough. Obviously he saw a market (us) for pret a porte, but the rest of the world wouldnt accept it then or now.

Oh well. Some day maybe...

CaptLex
02-21-2006, 02:38 PM
It's funny, I just got back from a session with my therapist where we discussed something about this. Specifically, about how I didn't realize (until he pointed it out) that I do care what people think about me when I crossdress. Not people in general, but people who know me - friends and co-workers, for example. I always thought I was free to do as I pleased without giving anyone else's opinion a second thought, but I realize he's right . . . I do think about it. And this revelation led me to admit that it's the reason I always balance my crossdressing at work with "female" things like jewelry and makeup, while when I crossdress at home or in public places where nobody knows me, I don't feel the need to do that. All this time I just thought I was feeling androgynous, but I realize now I was probably just hiding. :doh:

Okay, I think I need to lie down now. :rolleyes:

Ms. Donna
02-21-2006, 05:25 PM
All this time I just thought I was feeling androgynous, but I realize now I was probably just hiding. :doh:

"probably just hiding"... Maybe not.

Keep in mind that everyone acts differently in different social settings (not just us T* folk. :bs:) - expecially at work. It's different than being out with friends and such.

Also, think about how you felt at work dressed androgynously. Do you feel uncomfortable? Like you're compromising some part of yourself?

If the answer is 'no', than there is no reason to feel compelled to do 'more'. I told you the best advice my friend Laura gave me,

"Just because your transgendered doesn't mean you have to do anything."

Believe me, I can appreciate the overwhelming feeling of needing to do more. Remember - everything in moderation. ;)

Love & Stuff,
Donna

CaptLex
02-23-2006, 02:25 PM
CaptLex, I do stuff like that too.
At work, I don't make an effort to look more feminine, but I seem to be changing the pitch of my voice or whatever, and the way that I talk, to sound more feminine. It's really annoying actually. Especially seeing as that's now the norm, so it'll seem weird if I talk normally (which is usually in a pretty male sorta way.)
But yeah, I know what you mean.

Thanks, Lex. I've done that voice thing too, now that you mention it. I have no idea why. It seems to me it's more of an effort to effect a higher-pitched voice for me, than a lower-pitched voice, and yet it happens a lot of the time - and it usually takes me by surprise when I do it. Crazy, huh? :doh:


Also, think about how you felt at work dressed androgynously. Do you feel uncomfortable? Like you're compromising some part of yourself? If the answer is 'no', than there is no reason to feel compelled to do 'more'.

I told you the best advice my friend Laura gave me,
"Just because your transgendered doesn't mean you have to do anything."

Donna, I believe I see your point, and I've been thinking about it. I've never thought I ever did anything (not even regarding my crossdressing) because I felt I had to. But I think that sometimes when I add certain female elements to my appearance I may be doing it for the wrong reasons - and not being true to myself. Do I feel like I'm compromising some part of myself? Yeah, sometimes.

So, I'm trying a little experiment. For the next two weeks I will consciously and deliberately not use anything female - no makeup, no jewelry, no feminine hairstyle, etc. I think that should be enough time for me to determine my reasons for doing it. If I feel that I missed any part of that for myself (regardless of anyone else's comments or opinion), then I'll know that it really is a part of me. If, however, I find that I didn't miss wearing it at all, then I'll know I was probably doing it for the wrong reasons. :rolleyes:

RevMoonSerpent
02-23-2006, 10:10 PM
CaptLex,
You made a good point, I always thought that I never did anything because I felt I had to. Now I'm starting to question the few feminine things that I do, if they are what I normally would do myself or more for other people. Your experiment sounds like a good idea. I just might have to try it for my own peace of mind.

CaptLex
02-24-2006, 11:05 AM
CaptLex,
You made a good point, I always thought that I never did anything because I felt I had to. Now I'm starting to question the few feminine things that I do, if they are what I normally would do myself or more for other people. Your experiment sounds like a good idea. I just might have to try it for my own peace of mind.

Hi, ladymoonserpent, and welcome. If you do give it a try, I'd be interested in hearing your results. :cool:

Patsy Stone GG
03-11-2006, 07:06 PM
So CaptLex and Ladymoonserpant......the results of the experiment are.......can't wait to hear..............

RevMoonSerpent
03-11-2006, 11:59 PM
I've done my little experiment and did realize that I do tend to change my mannerisms and appearance but, more when I am with my family than anything else. The only thing that I happen to have a true liking for is nail polish and I don't even really consider that to be completely feminine since I have noticed a number of guys wearing it also.
To better explain my situation, my husband and I live with my parents because both have medical conditions that require help. I spend most of my time out with my mother as she is the only one of the two that is mobile. She knows that I am an FtM cross dresser but, even though she gave me the “Whatever makes you happy,” speech, I know that it bothers her when we are with people that she knows. So in those cases more for her comfort than my own, I tend to act shy and change the tone of my voice etc. Especially if she asks me to accompany her to Sunday Service, I do the makeup thing so they figure I’m just a tomboy.
After doing all this I have taken a long hard look at my behavior and realized that I hate what I’m doing and I don’t want to behave that way anymore. I’m 26 yrs old and I need to start doing what makes me happy. The only person whose opinion should really matter to me is my husbands and he’s OK with it so everyone else will just have to get pleased some other way.
So, I’m going to say thank you CaptLex for giving me the idea that has helped me discover what I truly want and I think make me a better person.

mistunderstood
03-12-2006, 03:04 AM
Good for you. Good luck.

daniellalee
03-12-2006, 01:21 PM
I think some of you are missing my first point. It is all about Fashion. Anything that is not considered fashionable people will frown upon. It is sad but true. Fashion changes over time. I does in some ways go back to the fact that women being masculine is considered a step forward, while men becoming feminine is considered a step backwards. This is of course foolishness but it is currently how our society thinks. It is a tradition that has never died to consider women weak and submissive and men strong and dominant. One of the problems people have with a man trying to be girly is because they can't understand why a man would want to be considered weak. Girly behavior is considered weak and sissified. It is not socially acceptable for a man to be weak and sissified but it is more acceptable for a women, who are considered weak and sissified from birth, to want to become strong and independent. It is not accepted by everyone of course. there are still those that believe a woman's place is total obedience to a man. Luckily that way of thinking is dying out as is the attitude that men are not allowed to be feminine. Everyone just needs to take a step back and see just how far we have come. Changes are happening. Fashion is changing. Now, women can wear jeans and a shirt without necessarily being thought of as a girl trying to look like a boy and men can wear earings, makeup and have long hair without being considered a boy trying to look like a girl. Do u see now how fashion dictates what is feminine and what is masculine, there is no standard,it is in a constant state of change. My god! men can wear pink now. i mean that is a step forward. There will still always be a standard of what is masculine and what is feminine, it will just always be changing and those of us who push the limits and step into the gender of the opposite sex will always be considered crossdressers. I am happy being a crossdresser. I too am a victim of standards. No matter how fashion changes i will always seek to be feminine. Ask yourself this question. Is it the clothes you seek or the gender? If all of the sudden fashion was reversed and dressing like a boy was considered feminine and dressing like a girl would be considered masculine, how would you dress?+?

Julie Avery
03-12-2006, 02:58 PM
To better explain my situation, my husband and I live with my parents because both have medical conditions that require help. I spend most of my time out with my mother as she is the only one of the two that is mobile. She knows that I am an FtM cross dresser but, even though she gave me the “Whatever makes you happy,” speech, I know that it bothers her when we are with people that she knows. So in those cases more for her comfort than my own, I tend to act shy and change the tone of my voice etc. Especially if she asks me to accompany her to Sunday Service, I do the makeup thing so they figure I’m just a tomboy.
After doing all this I have taken a long hard look at my behavior and realized that I hate what I’m doing and I don’t want to behave that way anymore. I’m 26 yrs old and I need to start doing what makes me happy. The only person whose opinion should really matter to me is my husbands and he’s OK with it so everyone else will just have to get pleased some other way.

I think the compromises you've made for your mom are admirable, and it looks to me like the way you're wrestling with the issues, whatever you decide will be done in good conscience.

One way of looking at these questions is to imagine yourself on your deathbed, and ask yourself, "What are my greatest regrets?" As a (mtf) CD who never came out to anyone till my late 40's I'm here to tell you that not honoring that part of myself sooner would be one of my big ones. But I think I wouldn't regret too much having denied myself something I wanted, in a limited way like you describe, out of love for my aging parents and consideration for their feelings. All too soon, they will be gone - my father is gone already, and without a doubt the experience of losing him was the most heartrending experience in my 51 years.

Keep up the good quest you're on, ladymoonserpent. I think you're doing just fine.

CaptLex
03-13-2006, 10:23 AM
So CaptLex and Ladymoonserpant......the results of the experiment are.......can't wait to hear..............

Hey, Patsy:

The results of the experiment is that, like Ladymoonserpent, I found out it isn't really something I need for me, but to make others more comfortable. During those two weeks I only felt the need to wear makeup (for me) twice, and both times it was because I looked in the mirror and felt that I needed a little color (I thought I looked pale and tired). :sad:

The first couple of days I got puzzling looks from co-workers (with women I know it's what they don't say rather than what they do say I have to watch out for), but after that the looks stopped, so I guess people got used to it. In fact, when I pointed out that I wasn't wearing anything besides sunscreen and undereye cream on my face, two people swore that I must be wearing some makeup (one of them was my therapist). :eek:

Since then I haven't resumed wearing makeup and I don't miss it (takes less time to get ready), but sometimes I do think a little eyeliner or mascara would make my eyes look less tired. I've also stopped wearing earrings and only wear my rings (which I don't consider feminine), but now I'm wondering what I'm going to do with all that cool jewelry I've collected over the years. ;)

CaptLex
03-13-2006, 10:25 AM
Ask yourself this question. Is it the clothes you seek or the gender? If all of the sudden fashion was reversed and dressing like a boy was considered feminine and dressing like a girl would be considered masculine, how would you dress?


That's a good question daniellalee. I think that I'm seeking the gender, rather than the clothes. If the clothes were suddenly reversed I'd dress as the norm for guys. I don't think that I hate the clothes quite as much as I hate the social confines that come with them.

I agree with Lex on this one, daniellalee . . . it's definitely the gender I seek. If the clothes were to change, I would have to change with them (but I'd miss my cool ties). :cool:

sparro
04-04-2006, 01:00 AM
I'm a lesbian. And an FtM. What the hell? I hadn't even heard of this antiFtM sentiments, although I GUESS I understand where they're coming from (not that I agree at all, obviously).
And perhaps it's not really lesbians, but feminists in general. Well, extremist feminists. I find that kind of feminism unbareble. Feminism is for EQUAL rights of women. I believe that people who believe in this equality are all 'feminists'. It's more extremists, who go so far as to say they are superior to men, and are intolerant of people who are just trying to be themselves.
Some lesbians may be feminists, but it's unfair to say that lesbians don't like FTMs. Now I'm going to :OT: myself. :p

Sarah Rabbit
04-08-2006, 07:30 AM
I too believe there is a double standard. GG's can wear anything and have no problem. "It's just her Tomboy stage, she will grow out of it" If a GM even show the slightest inclination to wear girly clothes and all hell breaks loose. This is a very frustrating world we live in

Hug, Sara R.:bunny:

CaptLex
04-08-2006, 09:54 AM
I'm a lesbian. And an FtM. What the hell? I hadn't even heard of this antiFtM sentiments, although I GUESS I understand where they're coming from (not that I agree at all, obviously). . . . Some lesbians may be feminists, but it's unfair to say that lesbians don't like FTMs.

sparro,

I don't like generalizations so I won't say that all lesbians dislike FtMs, but I have heard and read of many incidents where some lesbians have a problem with FtMs who previously identified as lesbians - before they realized that didn't quite fit them and came to see that they were really transgendered. :(

Many people, gays and lesbians included, don't quite understand what transgenderism is (hell, some of us don't even get it completely), and so I think this is why there are lesbians who think an FtM is just going to the extreme in transitioning, instead of accepting their lesbianism. It's just misinformation and misunderstanding on the part of some. :p

I go to a lesbian bar from time to time because I like the music and the people there are very cool, but I've never told them that I'm FtM for fear that they'll tell me to go find a bar with my own kind. I could be wrong and they could welcome me without a care, but I've been too chicken to out myself there because of past experiences with lesbians who thought I was in denial and treated me coldly. I guess you can say I have some bias based on the past. :rolleyes: