Felt like grieving today... wanted to share

[Camille15]

Today I was listening to some of my female co-workers chatting, complimenting each other on clothes, etc. I work in a sales team of mostly women, all of whom are young, attractive, smart, and well-dressed. I often admire their clothes, and wish I could pay them a compliment in the way they do towards each other. I think being around these women often stirs in me my desire to shop, dress, and dive into my femm side, especially when the pink fog rolls in.

Today was a heavy pink fog day. While walking with 2 of them to the office kitchen, I felt something I haven't felt before though. A sadness inside of me that I know I'll never be like these women. I'll never be young, petite, short, or pretty. I'll never have small hands or delicate features. And I'll never be able to look as good in the outfits as they do. Even on my best CD day, I could never come close. Nor will I ever be able to chat and gossip with other women like they do, and just enjoy the many wonderful sides of being female. I wasn't exactly depressed over it. I don't think I have gender-dysphoria induced depression or anything. But I felt it at a level I never have before, and I sincerely felt like crying suddenly. It's as if I realized this part of me has progressed about as far as it ever will, and that left me feeling the need to grieve it. To grieve the loss of the woman I never got (and will never get) to be. The feeling passed in short while, but I felt it would be healthy to acknowledge it here amongst those who might understand me.

As for what brought this on (besides pink fog)? This weekend I attended my young daughters first softball game, and standing there with all the sports crazy macho dads (I am soooooo not into sports) made me feel a bit out of place and wondering if I should "fake it" a bit to fit in. I think this feeling must have played a part in today's longing to fit in with people I feel that, at some level, are more like me.

Thanks for reading,
Camille

[Tracii G]

Yeah I do feel the same way because I feel I don't fit in with either gender.
The up side is I can emulate both genders by CDing. A double edged sword in a lot of ways

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Camille, what a heartfelt and beautifully written post that summarizes perfectly so many of my feelings. Thank you!

[Wen4cd]

I'm sorry, Camille.

[Pat]

I've had that feeling too. I hope you have success shrugging it off. It can take me to a pretty dark place at times. :( All we can be is the best we can be. As for trying to be like the macho Dads -- I can't believe you'll be happier trying to be something you're not. Let the kids see there's more than one kind of Dad out there. Good luck.

[Katya@]

Hi Camille,
Thanks for sharing. Your feelings are fair. It is harder for some of us then others as we all have different needs. Clearly, your needs are stronger than mine but I hope the positive aspects will help to you to stay upbeat. And about other dads - you don't have to blend in to be a great dad for your child.

[Barbara Maria]

Hi Camille.Yeah,I get that sometimes too.I haven't had much girl time all of last year because work was running rampant.Sometimes it seemed like she was slipping away.I sure don't want that.I work and travel with two lovely women and many times I've wished I could join them.And I'm with you.Absolutely no interest in sports,or most guy things for that matter. Barbara

[OCCarly]

I've worked through those feelings my entire life. I'll never be young again, and with my big hands and feet, when I dress cute I look a little like a Bratz doll. And other than bicycle racing and golf, I don't like sports either. I watch the Super Bowl for the commercials.

But my goodness when I go full dress and I look at the girl in the mirror, I am so happy just to have a chance to be, even if only for a few hours at a time.

[flatlander_48]

C:

About the parenting part...

Remember: the purpose of going to the softball game is not about you. The purpose is to support your daughter. How you may or may not appear to other parents doesn't count for much. You are there because your daughter is there.

DeeAnn

[AmandaM]

Oh Camille, I am so exactly like you! I feel the same. I've been cheated.

[Eryn]

I understand exactly how you feel. I've had the same feelings many times. My solution was to get out there and engage in situations where I can get the interaction I crave. I take classes, go on walking tours, enjoy museums, wander through arboretums, go to live theater, etc. Doing these activities gives me plenty of opportunity to interact with other women in positive ways.

[ReineD]

I'm sorry you had a bad day. :(

If it's any consolation, I'm tall for a woman and I have huge feet (size 11). My hands are the same size as my SO's, so I'll also never be delicate and petite like the girls you describe. Plus, I'm older now and I've gone up a few sizes so I'll never be young again in fact I cannot wear certsin clothes any more without feeling self-conscious. Probably a mini skirt would look much better on you than on me! :) My point in telling you this is, if you look around at all the women who walk past you at a mall in the suburbs: all ages, all body sizes, all degrees of wealth (not everyone can afford a stylish wardrobe), you'll see that most of us fall short of the ideal and we are quite ordinary, in fact most of us do not turn heads like young, attractive and dynamic women who are full of self-confidence.

But one thing you can do, is join their circle and talk about what they talk about. Gossip with them (you know all the same people in the office as they do?) chit-chat about the things they chit-chat about, joke with them, etc. If anything, they'll think to themselves "He gets it". Over the years I've known men who fit right in with the girls in terms of just being easy to be with, and we all loved them. We thought of them as really nice guys. And if you should ever compliment them on an outfit or a pair of shoes, I bet they'll feel flattered.

As to the men at the softball game, they probably talk about sports together because they don't know each other too well and they want to talk about something. Sports is a safe topic because it's neutral. I have three sons in their 20s and 30s and they never talk sports. Or cars. Lots of guys don't talk sports. Just introduce something YOU want to talk about like current events, the economy, politics and I'm sure they'll rally around and switch the conversation. When I get together with female friends, we talk about what's going on in the world probably more than anything else. My SO and I just got back from a trip where we got to spend two days at a friend's house, whom I had not seen in 25 years. So it was the four of us all weekend and no one talked about sports or cars not even when my SO was alone with my friend's husband. Politics was pretty much on the agenda, real estate, books, art, movies, travel, our kids, in addition to catching up on major personal events in the last 25 years. And we talked about decorating and furniture a lot! :) They build their own house over a period of several years and everything in it is well thought out and quirky. They took time to find just the right piece to go in every nook and cranny. We admired the hand-forged iron, hand-build cabinets, stained glass, my friend is a vegetarian and we talked a lot about vegetarian recipes, organic foods, health ... all of us.

I honestly don't think that men and women are all that different, except for their body parts.

[MichelleDevon]

Camille, I'm with Reine on this - talk to them, join in their chats about clothes and make-up, etc. (If) When they realise that you have a valid opinion AND seem to know what you're talking about they may put two and two together (or they may not). Either way you will likely find yourself an accepted part of their chat group and keep your eyes and ears open for opportunities to hint at how you got to be knowledgeable.

If that feels a high risk stratagem just think where it might take you. I did something similar with a new colleague...we were talking on the phone a few weeks before she was due to join us following an amalgamation and some comment was made about shoes and I made a response which led her to query what I knew, being a man. So I just added that maybe I know more than she thinks I do - and left it at that.
Later, when she was in my office for a chat that phonecall came back into the conversation - it had clearly sparked her interest. So, in my typical cavalier manner, I reached out an envelope which I had in my jacket pocket... In it were a number of early Michelle pictures; I held it out and said "I'm not sure if you're ready for this" and handed her the envelope.

The rest, as they say, is history. She was immediately fascinated, interested - work was rapidly forgotten and replaced by talk about crossdressing. She had never knowingly met a CDer before and wanted to know more, wanted to meet Michelle. So she came with me to my girls group meeting and had a fantastic time - she is still very much a friend to the group 5 years on, she went to Sparkle with me in Manchester, loving it at least as much as I did. She and I are now planning to establish a drop-in centre for "girls" as a retirement venture for me which she will be a part of.

My crossdressing is very much "known about" by most of my colleagues and we talk about girlie things, I share pictures and it is just an extra layer of friendly banter at work. Only Carrie-Anne has met Michelle - though I keep threatening when we have dress-up/down days or funding raising days... I always raise my eyebrows questioningly and get an amused "No!" from my female colleagues.

I have met no aminosity to it at work and I would say, Camille, that it is worth just beginning to put your toe in the water, drop a few hints and just see what happens... It makes work an awful lot more fun!!!!!!

Michelle
xxx

[PaulaQ]

Actually Camille, I believe what you are experiencing is in fact gender dysphoria. It's not a particularly intense type, but what you describe is pretty classic. No, I'm not saying you should transition.

The pink fog is the happy fun euphoric side of GD. GD is the negative stuff. Believe me, feeling like crying is mild.

[KrissyP]

Great note Camille, and I love the responses. One of the great things for me about Cross dressing is getting in touch with that "feminine side" which all guys have to one degree or another. Actually it is just part of the whole being that God made and we can try to be glad that we have the opportunity to explore it in unique ways. I certainly echo some of the other comments that we don't all have to fit in and look like everyone else to have value. "Greatness" is often first perceived as odd or different.

Go get 'em girl.

[Secret Drawer]

Aside from the pink fog rolling in (or out) part, and the feeling passing, I definitely feel your pain. I don't mourn the loss of the look so much as the idea that we won't be accepted at "face value" even if we do our best.
At least there is one positive to be taken from your situation; Find out what you envy the most about the women you work with, the things you can emulate, and perfect that look. If it is the soft smooth legs, then get working, yup, even a gender male can have soft smooth legs... etc.

[Tara Rushing]

What an awesome post. I think it has struck a chord with almost all of us. I certainly feel much the same way. Almost a jealousy when I see a group of pretty women at a restaurant bar or something. Carrying on and looking fabulous. A part of me just dies knowing that will never be me, but so wanting it to be. Thank you for posting such a heartfelt message.

[Allisa]

I believe I know the feelings you describe. But it is the cross we must bear as CDers. But we must adapt and endure. As a gender fluid person myself I've found ways to compliment women on their clothing and other attributes in a non "creepy" way. As I age I feel it is easier to "enjoy the wonderful sides of being female" even though I will never be truly female but it is a gift I will always revel in. As far as the "macho" dads, I'm not a father so in a way I don't fit in either, but I do work in a macho field and have a knowledge of things discussed in their circles but still not totally accepted for many reasons. I hope I didn't tread all over your thread, and thank you for expressing your feelings here, it's just you got me to thinking about a subject close to me and I seem to think (write) out loud. I see a very lovely woman in your avatar, you are blessed.

[Kellitgdet]

For me it can be starts with seeing a beautiful woman wearing something well. As we all know when we are looking at a beautiful woman we are usually looking at their clothes, shoes, makeup... After I'm triggered all I want to do is dress up and get my fem-self on. If I can't, then the next best thing for me is to go shopping for the perfect dress, jeans, heels; lately I've been trying to find the perfect pair of over the knee high heel boots. I do envy woman and being able to just be themselves. That is what is so wonderful about this site, we are able to connect with each other. So make the best of it and enjoy your femininity, Kelli

[Alice Torn]

Thanks for sharing this Camille. At 61, a lifeteme bachelor, and huge hands and feet, and six foot five, and pretty messed up emotionally by a toxic family, i understand tremendous deep grief, and sorrow, when i see the ease of being giggly, social, and freedom to be fun (girls just want to have fun), that most GGs have. I realize many GGs have had abuse, rape, beatings and bad relationships, and diseases which they sorrow with. But, being a single man, means isolation, lonliness, being unwanted, and drab, too often. I have volunteered, and helped others in need often too, but to never have an intimate relationship, it is still stark, and i feel sad, too, as GGs get lots of attention, are in demand, while to be a man means not being wanted or needed by GGs. Several GGs have told me that men are not needed anymore. Sad but true. I cope with it partly by dressing up several times a month, and temporarily becoming the GG i never had. I often do compliment GGs on their outfits, or dresses, though, and usually they thank me.

[heatherdress]

Camille - I am also sorry about your sadness and appreciate your heart-felt sentiments. We all have wishes and desires in life that will not be fulfilled. It's normal for many to want to be taller, shorter, more attractive, smarter, more talented, more successful, more powerful, etc. But we still have to accept who we are, be thankful what we have, and live our lives to the fullest - as us - not as we wish in our dreams. If your sadness is profound and on-going, then you need to address it and get help. But if it is only passing and understandable, bear it and focus on your young daughter, who is a greater gift than beauty or clothing. You do not have to enjoy sports to get a lot out of her activities. It is about her and she will benefit from participation if you are supportive. There are also many non-sporting activities that you can enjoy with your daughter as she grows up. Good luck

[Stephanie47]

There's nothing in the rule book that says you cannot compliment a woman on her appearance. It is said many women dress to impress other women. I would not tell a woman in the work place that she looks "hot." I've always complimented women I have known and currently know on their hair or attire. Just don't leer. Yes, there have been many times when I've wanted to ask where she bought her dress. I will not go that far.

As to not interested in sports. I'm glad to see you attend your daughter's games. Cheer her on. Play catch with her. Shag fly balls with her. It use to irritate the crap out of me when I coached my daughter's softball team that able bodied men half my age would sit with their fat beer bellies and graphic obnoxious tee shirtsi n their pickup trucks ignoring their daughters. Of course, if their sons were out there, they'd be cheering.

[JeanTG]

Camille, I can relate to where you're at (and I'm also soooo not sports! Except I love cycling and hiking).

I wanted though, to share that as an older CD/TG, I no longer have any illusions about "passing" at least not with some serious hard work and expensive plastic surgery I couldn't possibly afford. Had I transitioned in my 20s rather than denying my feelings for so long, things might have been different. Alas, here I am in my late 50s. What I really want to say is gender happens between the ears. Not between the legs, nor on the surface by how good we look (let's be fair, there are a lot of fairly homely genuine gals out there too and nobody doubts that they're women...). I've realized over the years that I don't think like the average guy. I have some mannerisms that are distinctly female such as my sitting posture. When I can't dress, that's how I "affirm" my gender. I also have likes and dislikes that are from the more feminine side and other women tend to notice it. For instance I'd rather watch an episode of Downton Abbey than a hockey game, and I'd rather talk about relationships, feelings and spirituality than the usual macho talk. When someone asks me what I think about last night's game, my eyes just roll over.

I do want to share a story that involves young women much like the ones you work with.

About 7 or 8 years ago I was working for a software firm, and we decided to translate our app into French. I headed up the project as I am a native French speaker. I contracted out a large part of the job to a translation firm. Three fairly attractive young women were assigned to the project. After about a year, with the project moving along fairly well, these young ladies decided to invite their client, that is me, to lunch. At the time I was about 50, and clearly showed up "en homme". I don't know if these women sensed something different about me, but we conversed as if I was one of them. They spoke of intimate (!) details of their lives as if I was just another of their girl friends. Now I certainly don't look the part when in drab, believe me. They just let me into their lives like I was part of the "sisterhood". Frankly, I've rarely felt so honoured in my life, and never felt so feminine! It was a time of great difficulties in my marriage (which I'm happy to say are behind us and yes we're still together), and I really appreciated just being able to go out with some young women to chat with and they gave me way more than I bargained for! We went to this great restaurant, and I was amazed at how they let me into their confidences. They talked about their sex lives, their periods, their babies, in short, the usual "girl talk". They must have felt safe with me! Though I'm only sexually attracted to women, I have fairly low libido most of the time and so probably didn't come across as trying to hit on them.

I've had a few similar experience since, and always tend to gravitate to the women in social settings. I just feel more at ease with girl talk that macho talk (which strikes me as so much posturing).

My point is that it isn't necessary to be dressed or look like a model to feel feminine. I think if you cultivate your femininity on an interior level, so that your demeanor slowly metamorphoses, you will feel more and more feminine and genuine and true to your feminine self; others will notice, in particular other women who are sensitive to others' feelings; the macho guys will be too clueless to notice though they might start to ask questions about why you always have attractive women around you :-)

If you work at cultivating the relationship with your coworkers in that direction, you may find that soon they let you into their inner circle, provided they feel safe. They might think you're gay but who cares? Women like the company of gay men, and if that's what they think you may find you're able to have a genuine girl-to-girl platonic relationship with them as if you were one of them. If some clueless folks think that my differences are because I'm gay, I don't really care, even though I'm not gay I feel a certain kinship with gays who have also had to suffer the burden of rejection by society for so long.

As much as we work hard to cultivate our outer appearance, I think to be truly femme we also need to cultivate our inner woman and let her shine through in subtle ways even when we can't be dressed. It has helped me greatly to keep my sanity and express my femme side when circumstances prevent being outwardly en femme, which alas is most of the time these days, though I do get to dress during the day about 3-4x per week and can under-dress 24/7. Cultivating the inner girl like has also made me *feel* feminine when outwardly I can't express it. So don't grieve the woman who's lost, instead celebrate the woman that you are, by focusing on being a woman where it counts, on the inside. I bet if you do that, she will bubble to the surface in surprising ways and you'll feel more confident dressed, even if you don't look 100% (and most GGs don't look 100%!)

[ReineD]

I don't know if these women sensed something different about me, but we conversed as if I was one of them. They spoke of intimate (!) details of their lives as if I was just another of their girl friends. Now I certainly don't look the part when in drab, believe me. They just let me into their lives like I was part of the "sisterhood".

Yep, we're pretty much all-inclusive! I've seen this time and time again throughout my life. If a guy wants to hang out with us and just "be" (as opposed to trying to put on the moves) he is always more than welcome! Maybe some of these guys were closeted CDs, but my guess is that most of them just knew how to be themselves with women and they felt comfortable hanging out. They weren't on the make.

[Robin414]

I totally get what you're talking about Camille...super attractive women drive me nuts (and not just for THAT reason 😉 ). That said though, as a woman I can't hold a candle to any GG but I can hold a weak flashlight to the 'crazy cat lady' from the Simpsons! Comparing myself to this, yah, maybe I'm not soooo bad!

256693


Yeah I do feel the same way because I feel I don't fit in with either gender.
The up side is I can emulate both genders by CDing. A double edged sword in a lot of ways

Great point Tracii, me too!!

[TaraGrace]

hi Camille,

ok, so I pondered for a whole 10 seconds before replying (it was hell.. the full 10 seconds) and then thought why not :)

Thanks for posting something like this, and hope I can throw in some motivation and help here too!

Firstly, I did see your recent photo's and girl.. you've got a hell of a lot of features that several of us (including me) would kill for.. not saying you shouldn't feel sad, but please let it not be over your looks! The grass is always greener, and *giggle* I almost spat out my drink seeing Robin's post (thanks Robin as always love the humor touch) but essentially that's a really really good point!

Secondly, and here's where I hope I can help with more then just a compliment..
I have been talking girl talk with the girls for at least 15 years now. (so that 15 minus a month or 2 before discovering there was Tara in here somewhere annoyed as hell I had been neglecting her). Ok, so you need to know I've always thought that I get away with this because I'm bi-sexual, so I'm like a hairdresser gay buddy to them, etc. but then reading your post 'snap' it hit me.. I know this.. they don't.. (or at least the majority didn't in the 15 years).

Yes, if you are tall you wish you were tiny, if you are tiny you wish you had long legs, if you're thin you wish you had boobs, if you're broader you hate the scales, if if if.. etc. perhaps it's the love/hate relationship we all have with appearance etc.etc. but seperate this feeling from social life topics.. hanging out with the girls on their topics is dead easy, you just need to introduce it with baby steps and you'll get there or pretty darn close!

Pick something obvious to start with.. my best advice is a topic something all girls will see, but most guys would not, or at least not comment on.. something like a girl's new haircut/colour.. and in some weeks just build on that.

Literally the last years ANYTHING metro-man will do no matter what your image as long as you give it a spin.
For example 'hi girls, I have a question really fitting 'cough' your department.. can you give me a ladies opinion? I'm looking for a new scent, but not being the biggest sports fan I don't want to get something that screams "hey dude pass the damn ball and the odor blocker" .. so something a bit more refined.. any suggestions what to shop for?

4 out of 5 (if not all) will just die at the chance of giving you THEIR expert experience/opinion.. and voila you are in their turf, asking their opinion on a subject semi related to where you want to be.. so by all means try their suggestion in a shop, come back smelling nice.. values their opinion too and gives you a good pick-up for a similar topic later etc.

Just blend in your 'status' if you will in steps, I mean I have talks about facial cream, compliments back and forth on clothing, relationships, the works.. and guess who's their first stop if they need a guy's opinion? Yep, so I will never get complimented on the makeup they never see, but I settled for the social buzz on large amounts of topics I can fit in and take my compliments on skinny jeans or shoes, and feel very happy in my little hive ;)

ps, as for the softball - I think DeeAnn said it best already.

I'll just throw in that most kids absolutely HATE pushy parents yelling on the side line, (it's so bad here we've even had radio campaigns and celebrities making statements to warn parents in the Netherlands not to do this).
Kids will look for you in a crowd to see you cheer on a good performance, or for a comforting face if something went wrong.. no macho acting needed.. good movie just came to mind 'bad news bears' (yikes, can't believe it's from 1976, just hit google to check). :)

hugs
x Tara

ps.. and if all else fails from what I wrote.. did I mention you look awesome in your photo's? :D

[Alice_2014_B]

I get that same feeling, especially when you desire to jump into such conversations.
:)

[joandher]

I had an absolutely stunning lady come to our show room the other day, immaculately dressed with about 4 inch heels on and made up flawlessly her perfume was out of this world with just an occasional whiff in the air i just had to ask her what it was and she told me it was Dior Poison i complemented her and that brought a wonderful smile to her face and then we chatted about life and styles for about 10/15 mins.

She bought what she came for, and then walked out with a smile that was to die for, and head held high and she thanked me for everything that w/e i went out and bought some and been wearing it ever since

That shows that woman will interact and love compliments

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have to disagree about talking about their appearance. One of the first things we learned when I was coming of age and going into the workplace is men talking about a female co-workers' appearance is a big no-no, no matter how innocent it sounds and how innocent you intend it. It is too easy to be misinterpreted and you can end up in hot water for it, no matter how innocent it is (and you are assumed guilty until proven innocent in that kind of situation.) Unless you are friends with them outside of work, I wouldn't risk it. Stick with talking about work or the weather or something.

[christylee_sf]

Camille,

So we are a victim of this image issuse like any other gg. The key is to be ok with our body and appearance. If we feel good about ourselves, then the pretty we will be.

[pamela7]

my experience of that deep sadness led to understanding my gender identity - female. I'm not saying this infers anything about you Camille, but it's worth exploring the feeling's roots.