Does your relationship have a solid foundation? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Jenniferathome

02-06-2016, 02:21 PM

ReineD

02-06-2016, 02:52 PM

All good points, but there's also another important cause for divorce and this is the development or worsening of compulsive behaviors.

Many years ago I knew a couple who enjoyed going to Vegas occasionally. Over time, his need to gamble increased to the point where he hid it and it continued to worsen until they experienced dire financial consequences. They divorced. With other couples it might be shopping compulsions. Or serial affairs, porn addiction, or other sexual issues. Or excessive alcohol or drug use. Even overeating, if the condition is severe enough.

And this may not apply so much to the CDers who participate regularly in this forum, but some CDers do have shopping or female-clothing hoarding issues, or they consistently lie about their attempts at connecting with others for sex, whether they experience a need to dress for identity reasons or not.

All this to say that I think a fifth category should be added, "Out of control behaviors" where the priority becomes the behavior over the relationship.

mykell

02-06-2016, 03:03 PM

your link cuts off at page 70 of the four horsemen chapter....

i also remember the saying that "liars figure and figures lie", buy that i am not calling you a liar.....having learned much about the Microsoft access program facts can be easily manipulated by changing the rules for search results, more-so than the excel program, they can be tweaked to say almost anything with a skilled programmer, one has to only look at the garbage politicians spew while campaigning.....marketing at its worst....

i know your very analytical at how you think and percentage wise i feel you are correct, but for those unlucky souls that fall outside of the numbers things wont seem so rosy, it just comes down to gambling in the end....some women just wont accept it...
edit: objectivity??
its a tough call, to see oneself as unbiased about the reality of it all, denial will come into play....

Maria Strange

02-06-2016, 03:16 PM

My wife's previous husband was an alcoholic. He ruined their marriage both emotionally and financially. I was fully truthful with her about the dressing and 11 years on she is still cool about it. It's not dressing that ruins marriages its the lying and the secrets.

Amy Lynn3

02-06-2016, 03:17 PM

Reine, I think the things you mention might be more suited under the heading of LIES. One must lie to cover up a multitude of sins from an SO. :hugs:

nikkiwindsor

02-06-2016, 03:27 PM

As I've shared in other threads, my wife is supportive of my cding. But, it hasn't always been that way. For us, a strong foundation was essential to my wife coming to terms with my feminine side. What did help is I shared my cding with her before we got married. However, for many years I didn't dress up. She perceptively noted my unhappiness and correctly surmised it was in large part not being true to my inner feminine self. She allows me to transform my appearance to align w/ Nikki who is inside me always. This is an expression of her unconditional love for me and my happiness. I strive to assure by words and action that she comes first and Nikki is second to her needs and desires. And we keep lines of communication continually open. She remains concerned that I'll want to transition into a woman full-time. I periodically express to her that that is not my desire.

daphne_L

02-06-2016, 03:34 PM

I think you are right that a solid marriage will survive cross dressing. However, many of us are not as good a partner as we would like to be and have marriages that could be better than they are. My wife is great, but I have flaws, she has flaws, and we have flaws in our relationship. Cross dressing is big enough that the fear that you have underestimated those flaws is legitimate. At that point it then becomes a judgement call. Is this relationship strong enough to survive the revelation? If you think it is then it is pretty valuable to you, is that value worth the risk. If it isn't, do you really want to know?

I have recently discovered that my marriage was on a stronger foundation than I thought, and it seems that the discovery has made it even stronger yet. But, the fear was real and legitimate.

Here are some statements I believe are true:
Many relationships that could not survive the revelation are valuable enough to be worth preserving.
Many relationships are not worth hiding your dressing to preserve them.
Many relationships are complicated enough that from the inside its hard to know how valuable they truly are, or how resilient to the revelation the truly are.

Daphne

Jenniferathome

02-06-2016, 03:34 PM

Could it be that out of control behaviors or lying are an expression of contempt? Perhaps adding another category or two would raise the accuracy to 98%?

i haven't read the full study but I'd be willing to bet that the behaviors posited by Reine and Amy are either statistically insignificant or are encompassed in the "four horsemen"

Leslie Langford

02-06-2016, 03:35 PM

There is certainly much truth to these points, but I would submit that when it comes to the average "vanilla" spouse or SO, or those who force a DADT relationship upon their crossdressing partner, that approach by definition includes elements of "Contempt", "Criticism", "Defensiveness", and "Stonewalling".

Which brings us back to Square One - crossdressing in and of itself may not be the final trigger that precipitates the end of a relationship, but it can represent the corrosive nucleus of a cancer that soon spreads to other aspects of the relationship and thereby shape a mindset and an entrenching of respective negative attitudes and positions that can lead to a total disconnect.

So - to your point, Jennifer - yes, if a relationship has a solid foundation, it can (maybe) survive the revelation of crossdressing. But once that revelation has been made, the relationship - just as in the case of the confession of a major miss-step like marital infidelity - will never be the same. Some wives or SO's may be able to cope and/or rationalize their staying together with a partner who has betrayed their expectations and trust in this way just as women in an abusive relationship often do so as not to "rock the boat" - and some may not. Often it is just a matter of time before the wheels fall off.

I've been on this board since 2008, and if I had a nickel for every crossdresser here who crowed about how supportive and accepting his wife or SO was, only to sheepishly report months (years?) later that the relationship had ended partly because crossdressing had remained the perennial elephant in the room despite the best efforts of the female partner to wrap her head around it, I'd be able to afford a whole new spring wardrobe.

ReineD

02-06-2016, 03:48 PM

Reine, I think the things you mention might be more suited under the heading of LIES.

Lies, yes, but also an inability to be present and happily engaged in the relationship if person's priority is to engage in behaviors that removes them from the relationship or if their behaviors cause stress in the relationship. For example, a husband might say, "Yes, I gamble" while continuing to do so to the detriment of their financial well-being. Or, "Yes, I have affairs or I like to spend my time watching porn" while continuing to do so despite the wife's objections. Or, "Yes, I know I drink too much but I'm not hurting you or anyone else". Or, "Yes, I have enough clothes to open my own store" while continuing to spend a large amount of time shopping. And any of these behaviors can result in a person feeling out of sorts when they are not engaged in their preferred behaviors (while they're spending time with their spouses and families), which in itself has dire consequences on any relationship. Right? Who wants to be with someone who is continually in a bad mood unless they indulge in their activities. This is what defines out of control behaviors.

avant1465

02-06-2016, 04:08 PM

I met my S/O on a dating/matching site, and told her - early on - that I did C/D-ing. She said "OK"... and that was that. We continued on to the terrific relationship that we have, now.... and there have been virtually no compromises necessary by either of us. As it happens, we have a pattern of our spending time, in the morning, reading the paper and watching the morning news shows, while (I am) dressed....... It is a constant for me (to be dressed).... and she seems quite content to spend that time with the "en femme" me......

Regardless of my C/D, we have great times together at a variety of activities that we both enjoy..... I'd say I am about the luckiest guy in the world......

S. Lisa Smith

02-06-2016, 04:12 PM

I read the article and some of the others. I think we are OK!

NicoleScott

02-06-2016, 04:28 PM

Of course you don't want to start a debate again. You want your opinion to be accepted as fact. You don't know that CDing never causes divorce because you can't know. The problem with your theory, which invalidates it, is that it is self-validating. That is, if CDing causes a divorce, you just claim the marriage didn't have a solid foundation. If a marriage survives a revelation, ah, it had a solid foundation. A theory that is not falsifiable is worthless.
"Notable in these findings is that crossdressing, of course, is not a reason for divorce." I didn't see that. Does the study actually state that, or is that your conclusion based on no mention of crossdressing?
There are many accounts on the forum in which a crossdressing member said that a good marriage ended because of the revelation, including mine.
Some women cannot be married to a crossdressing husband. Period.

daphne_L

02-06-2016, 04:37 PM

Leslie,

Are you saying every revelation of cross dressing will eventually end the relationship? Or do you think cross dressers can have relationships, but only if they hide their dressing? Or, are we then fated to have failed relationships, either because we hide, or because we came out?

Katey888

02-06-2016, 05:05 PM

i haven't read the full study but I'd be willing to bet that the behaviors posited by Reine and Amy are either statistically insignificant or are encompassed in the "four horsemen"

You don't need to read the full study to know that a sample based on only 79 couples (and all in the US Midwest) is already statistically not significant and prone to substantial extrapolative error.

Additionally, given that the incidence of active, full-on CDs is... what? 2 or 3%??? There's a good chance the sample of 79 completely missed capturing a CDer so of course it wouldn't be mentioned. At. All. :facepalm:

More pseudo-science dressed up as gospel to what end...??? Brand everyone with a less than perfect relationship as lying, cowardly and selfish and through diminishing them promote the "out to wifey" crowd as the arbiters of righteousness..????

We Anglo-Saxons had a word or two for this but I'm not going to use them here...

It changes nothing: Everyone has a choice - there are no right or wrongs - your values are not my values - your wife is not my wife and you are not me... :tongueout:

Katey (bored) x

PS: Meant to say: No - my marriage does not have a solid foundation, which means I get a pass, right? <lookingfortheagincourtemoticon>

Jenniferathome

02-06-2016, 05:50 PM

Interesting. Nothing in the study "branded" you anything. I made no assertion as to you, your situation or anyone's. The study is the study. Certainly not pseudo-science. It's a real study, not coincidences being glued together. If you feel attacked by it, feel free to send note to the authors.

Katey888

02-06-2016, 06:16 PM

Jennifer, allow me to clarify and make it non-emotive:

You started with:

In response to the "My [wife] will divorce me if I tell her," crowd...
which I'm pretty sure includes me, although I tend to tread more of the "you just don't know" line - but you quoting the study is presumably in support of what you say you have written many times - and that's fine, as far as your opinion goes it is as good as anyone else's here. :)

I am pointing out the invalidity in a sample of 79 couples (of whom only 21 divorced) in a 14 year study, in one part of the US, when in 2014, more than 814,000 divorces took place in the USA (excluding some significant states, in fact...) (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/marriage_divorce_tables.htm) The study therefore has some interesting qualitative results (but not definitive by any means) but minimal quantitative validity as the sample is just too small.

I appreciate you may have wanted to provide some scientific data to support your position, objectively. I am simply saying, objectively, that the data you have found is not statistically worthwhile, and I'd be surprised to find any statistician (or anyone who uses statistics professionally) that would give credence to a sample of 79 out of a population that numbers in the millions (since we must sum the divorces over the 14 year life of the study).

Simply: there is no proof of anything in the study you refer to. :)

Katey x

Dana44

02-06-2016, 06:18 PM

I must say that my ex wife had all four of those and even more such as trust and stealing issues. It did make me divorce her. Now I have a girlfriend and we have a solid relationship. But as they say sometimes there is a problem. But all in all this relationship is solid and my gender issues, she has a minor problem with it every few months where she asks me to go male to get her balance back. Which means I probably went to far. But it always works out. She and I do not display any of those issues you noted and that has me happy to be in this relationship.

ReineD

02-06-2016, 06:38 PM

Jen, I do agree that if a marriage has a solid foundation, the couple has a better chance of navigating the CDing than if it doesn't. This just makes sense.

.... unless the CDing brings with it compulsive behaviors. (I'm not saying that CDing in itself is compulsive, for example you, my SO and others in this forum are not compulsive when you can happily engage in the rest of your lives while not CDing). By compulsive, I mean not only the excessive shopping or hiding related sexual behaviors (if these are present ... they aren't for everyone), but more importantly, the other big symptom characteristic to behavioral addictions which is acting out in anger, irritability, moodiness, and experiencing craving, restlessness or depression when the person cannot engage in their preferred activities. Call it a sort of bullying. Right? "I'll be angry, moody or irritable when I can't crossdress so that you'll let me crossdress more often". It's a manipulative tactic that alcoholics and drug users use all the time even if they are in denial about it and it can foster codependence in a spouse, causing great harm to the relationship and the family.

See # 4 here (http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/hints/addictiveb.html).

So even if the marriage has a solid foundation, the minute the CDing gets out of control (and no, this doesn't necessarily mean the person is a gender dysphoric TS), the relationship is damaged because these behaviors directly affect the SO. As mentioned all CDers need not fit this mold. But, a close approximation to these sorts of behaviors is Pink Fog, if the Pink Fog is sustained for any length of time. By Pink Fog I mean thinking about the CDing almost 24/7 and becoming irritable when the person cannot CD.

Disclaimer: obviously if a person is gender dysphoric and is depressed because their body and gender role does not match their innate gender identity, the above does not apply.

Leslie Langford

02-06-2016, 07:19 PM

daphne, what I am saying is that from my personal experience and assorted other observations, most "vanilla" GG's would be more than happy if a partner's crossdressing never reared its ugly head or else would simply go away, never to return. For many of them, DADT is about as much as they can bear, and grudgingly at best.

Sure, there may be some women with a bit of an adventurous or kinky bent who would find this to be daring, unconventional and therefore exciting (you know, the way otherwise sensible women are often attracted to "bad boys" until the excrement hits the ventilator), but even for them, this soon gets old. Then there are those women who are fundamentally insecure and might be willing to settle for "whatever". They might just go along with their partners' predilections because they have been socialized to be people-pleasers and don't want to jeopardize their relationships, but even for them, this becomes a challenge after awhile.

From what I gather, lesbians as a whole are pretty ambivalent at best when it comes to crossdressers and TG folk, if not downright hostile towards them in some cases. And while some feminists might be amenable to considering trans women as "sisters" in the equality struggle (read: "tokenism" here), many still have mixed feelings about this. The more rabid among them - feminist icon Germaine Greer's recent (and much decried) transphobic rant being a prime example - are downright dismissive of our community in a condescendingly arrogant manner.

That leaves bisexual women, where crossdressers probably have the greatest likelihood of acceptance within a relationship as they, too, "swing both ways" and are most apt to "get it". But the odds of a bisexual woman and a crossdresser hooking up are extremely slim given the prevalence of either in the general population, so for a crossdresser to find such a mate is likely akin to winning a lottery.

All that said, Nicole probably summed it up the most succinctly and accurately when she stated in her post (above) "Some women cannot be married to a crossdressing husband. Period."

Jenniferathome

02-06-2016, 07:32 PM

Reine, compulsive behaviors can absolutely be destructive I simply don't know if that behavior was absorbed in the study design as part of the "four horsemen." I agree completely with this:
"...but more importantly, the other big symptom characteristic to behavioral addictions which is acting out in anger, irritability, moodiness, and experiencing craving, restlessness or depression when the person cannot engage in their preferred activities. Call it a sort of bullying. Right?"

But as it relates to this study, for example, could "contempt," cover someone who has negative compulsive behaviors, a me first, me only attitude?

"Contempt, It involves seeing your partner as beneath you (http://www.businessinsider.com/one-behavior-is-the-kiss-of-death-for-a-relationship-2015-1), rather than as an equal. This behavior alone, says Gottman, is "the kiss of death" for a relationship."

Teresa

02-06-2016, 07:35 PM

Jennifer,
I'm glad I didn't read that report sooner otherwise I would have been one of the statistics . Maybe most of us can say that we've dealt with the reasons on the list but usually say tomorrow is another day and lets hope that particular storm has blown over ! 41 years has had some rough moments but then there are good times too !

I know you don't want to start a new debate, all I can say is CDing was nearly the final straw ! Your list doesn't include being TS but the fact I wasn't may have been my saving grace.

giuseppina

02-06-2016, 09:15 PM

Hello Jennifer,

That study suffers from a very common problem that typifies material published by social scientists: not enough subjects to make valid conclusions. 79 couples? Not as bad as some. I haven't done the mathematics recently, but 95% confidence intervals would likely span a third of the group, if not more.

In medical studies, 5000 subjects is a starting point.

Conclusion: Interesting result that MIGHT merit further investigation. Any other conclusion is nonsense until proven otherwise.

Background: I hold university degrees in mathematics and engineering.

TrishaTX

02-06-2016, 10:06 PM

For me I was the problem, I wasn't even sure I was a CD ...of course I dressed as many times as I could. I also cheated and flirted as much as possible. I blamed everyone but me. A number of years ago, I went away from some therapy and still go. I think I "found" myself and the problem. My wife stuck it out for allot of reasons...and she deserved better. Yes my relationship is strong, I guess I did enough before, but once I became honest with myself is when my relationship got allot better. Everyone has different things they have to suffer through, but one thing I tell my son is, honesty and commitment are things most women don't bend on...if you want to be in a strong relationship and in love, then come to the table honestly...My opinion only not preaching just what I have learned in 50 years of my life...

Robin414

02-06-2016, 11:04 PM

Great post Jennifer, but a long read and tend to have a short attent...look, a rabbit...I'm gonna chase it...
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Got away, oh yah, solid foundation, yes, absolutely!!! To elaborate...hey is that the same rabbit...I'm gonna chase it...

Gillian Gigs

02-07-2016, 01:01 AM

There is nothing more deceiving than the deception of, this would never happen to me, mentality. Too many married people think that they have a solid relationship, and they don't. People fool themselves into complacency, and that is a slippery slope into an abyss. All relationships require work, especially marriages, and too much complacency will hurt any relationship. There are some good points here, I don't think that anyone means to finger point, the real question is; "can you look at your relationship objectively?" If you think that it could never happen to you...you are not being objective!

GretchenJ

02-07-2016, 02:10 AM

Like Katey, I am also in the closet and do not disclose my crossdressing. Do I worry about divorce , yes, but I am more worried about the eventual outcome - even if divorce is not the end state. Even if my wife was to be totally onboard, it would cause a seismic shift in our relationship.

Jenn - I know that things have worked out well for you and your wife, and I am truly happy for you. (No sarcasm meant in that ) But I am certain in my heart that this decision of disclosure is extremely personal and YMMV is true key in play here.

As someone mentioned earlier, your assertion that it's the lie not the crossdressing is something that not be proven true for ALL people, if the spouse accepts the CD then the foundation is solid, if it ends in divorce, either the foundation was weak or the lie caused the lack of trust that ended the marriage. But we have seen people here that have stated that the wives have left then after they disclosed.

To try to support this theory, I present the following in rebuttal ( yes, I know that it from a well known anti cd site, but we can not cherry pick the wheat from the shaft as it comes to data and statistics

http://www.crossdresserswives.com/revision/questionnaireresults2012.html

From the survey of 200 couple, almost 3 times More than your survey, the results are as follows

Wives attitudes toward cross dressing:
Most positive (“embrace it”): 11%
Accept with some negative feelings: 23%
Tolerated with both positive and negative feelings: 22%
Not accept: 17%
Dislike intensely: 18%
Stngly dislike 9%Wiv attitudes toward cross dressing:
Most positive (“embrace it”): 11%
Accept with some negative feelings: 23%
Wives attitudes toward cross dressing:
Most positive (“embrace it”): 11%
Accept with some negative feelings: 23%
Tolerated with both positive and negative feelings: 22%
Not accept: 17%
Dislike intensely: 18%
Strongly dislike 9% with both positive and negative feelings: 2accept: 17%
Dislike intensely: 18%
Strongly dislike 9%

So extrapolating, 34% are ok with it, 22% has causes some friction in the relationship, while 44% the result of the tell has resulted in negative outcomes. Again the survey did not ask about trust or the lie but their feelings solely on crossdressing

.. And this is why I choose to keep this part of my life compartmentalized and secret.

Nikkilovesdresses

02-07-2016, 05:28 AM

Solid foundations, hmmm.

I recently watched series 2 of Transparent- though the following point can apply to anybody's relationship. Maura's children each sabotaged committed relationships; relationships solid enough to encompass marriage or parenthood. It was obvious to the viewer that each of their relationships was founded on apparently reasonable partner choices, and that the failings were due to Maura's kids' emotional immaturity.

OK it's just a TV series, but it was a clever and poignant description of how people sabotage relationships which can appear to be based on solid foundations: each of their chosen partners were fully committed to them- it was Maura's kids who chose to undermine themselves, causing terrible pain and destruction. The fact that at least one of those relationships was based on a poor choice is incidental, though symptomatic of the same immaturity.

As a footnote, the reason for their group immaturity appears to be laid fully at their parents' door, which is how an entire generation is being raised, in many parts of the Western world; ie that our failings are not our fault or responsibility, that it's always somebody else's fault. Playground mentality. This is why we see cases entering court such as the woman who fell into a mall fountain while texting and who successfully sued the jokers who released the CCTV footage to YouTube, for 'hurting her feelings' or some such drivel.

My point is that what appears to be a solid foundation may turn out to have been no such thing: it all depends on how much stress is applied.

reb.femme

02-07-2016, 06:04 AM

Hi Jennifer,

I think such hard and fast groupings leads to greater inflexibility in any investigation.

...crossdressing in and of itself may not be the final trigger that precipitates the end of a relationship, but it can represent the corrosive nucleus of a cancer that soon spreads to other aspects of the relationship and thereby shape a mindset and an entrenching of respective negative attitudes and positions that can lead to a total disconnect...

...But once that revelation has been made, the relationship - just as in the case of the confession of a major miss-step like marital infidelity - will never be the same..

Leslie makes some good points. I would love to say my relationship was great and how accepting my wife is, but the reality is that she has gone from embracing to distant since my big reveal. I can ask until I'm blue in the face and I still get the stock answer, that she is OK. :straightface:

I wonder too, if the figures hide many truths, in so far that many do not want to advertise on official records that crossdressing was the reason for the split? Of course, a solid foundation has to be in place as Jennifer correctly states IMHO, but you can never be fully aware of a partner's inner thoughts, if they don't wish to divulge them.

Unfortunately, people are by nature secretive of those behaviours they might deem 'out of the norm', so I'm extremely skeptical of any study, especially when the author has an end goal and wishes to make the equation equal the known 'result'. For another old quote, how about "lies, damn lies and statistics"? :)

Great post Jennifer, but a long read and tend to have a short attent...look, a rabbit...I'm gonna chase it...
.
.
.
Got away, oh yah, solid foundation, yes, absolutely!!! To elaborate...hey is that the same rabbit...I'm gonna chase it...

Oh dear, that's me too on long and deep replies that get bogged down in...hey, I think I just saw Robin's rabbit! Wear better fitting shorts perhaps? :heehee:)

Becky

Marcelle

02-07-2016, 07:41 AM

Jen,

Good post and good information from the perspective of having a solid foundation in a relationship. To be honest if my wife and I did not have solid 25+ year foundation I don't think we would have survived the revelation that I am TS. However, this is us and the circumstances are different from couple to couple and that can change with a blink of an eye. The funny thing about research, and to be honest an article in a third tier journal IMHO does not qualify as hard research, research in an of itself can prove or disprove anything. Heck theoretical physics can prove an elephant can hang over a cliff suspended by only it's tail tied to a daisy. However, I doubt many physicists (or elephants :)) would want to replicate that hypothesis in real time.

You posit that based on this article so long as you are not riding shotgun with the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" and you tell your wife . . . things will be all sunshine and lollipops because cross dressing would not be the issue as she can accept that in you. That may be the case in your relationship as it was in mine. However, your assertion is based on a long standing relationship which implies that the person was not upfront from day one so of course they can be seen as "riding shotgun" but . . . it was not about the cross dressing but the lying. Are you 100 percent certain about this? What about if a spouse admits to a long standing affair? Would the SO leave her/him or forgive? I am not sure as there are going to be all sorts of variable which feed into that decision making process not just a few. Perhaps when the SO does her/his cost analysis decision making, the cross dressing is just too much for the SO to accept and that is the catalyst and the four markers of the Apocalypses provide the easy out. In all research, there are extraneous variables which cannot be controlled for which is why we have error. These are aspects of the relationship which we know nothing about and when they get thrown into the mix the horsemen can cometh with more than a few choice variables which can lead a mighty big Apocalypse of some and not for others.

All this to say, this article does not justify your well know stance that telling is the only way forward. In fairness though it is good information for many to ponder when making their decision to tell or not. But from my perspective it is "their" decision, not yours, not mine or anyone else's to force, cajole or shame them into. Again, I am not saying don't tell, I am just saying make an informed decision and a fluff piece article from the internet IMO does not qualify as hard evidence to base the big tell on.

Cheers

Marcelle

Jenniferathome

02-07-2016, 10:56 AM

....

To try to support this theory, I present the following in rebuttal ( yes, I know that it from a well known anti cd site...)

From the survey of 200 couple, almost 3 times More than your survey, the results are as follows

Wives attitudes toward cross dressing:
Most positive (“embrace it”): 11%
Accept with some negative feelings: 23%
Tolerated with both positive and negative feelings: 22%
Not accept: 17%
Dislike intensely: 18%
Strongly dislike 9% with both positive and negative feelings: 2accept: 17%
...

Gretchen, despite the protestations of some, this post was truly about examining a relationship. Perhaps I should have begun and stopped at the final question I asked. Gillian got the heart of it below.

But with respect to the counter argument, there are some significant issues to consider. First, the data you provided is, indeed, a survey. The data I provided is a study. These are significantly different things. The former is a reporting of a status, the latter is a test of a hypothesis where disproving that hypothesis is a possibility. Secondly, the time frame is hugely different. More than decade vs a moment in time.

But, and this is the most important point, can't wives "strongly dislike" cross dressing in a relationship with a solid foundation? The like/hate part of this self reported survey is irrelevant.

...the real question is; "can you look at your relationship objectively?" If you think that it could never happen to you...you are not being objective.

and yes Gillian, I think this is the real question and applies to any couple irrespective of any quirks.

Hi Jennifer,

I think such hard and fast groupings leads to greater inflexibility in any investigation....
...but you can never be fully aware of a partner's inner thoughts, if they don't wish to divulge them....

Becky, I agree. The problem with any study is that consolidation, which has to be done, appears to not cover every situation. It can't be avoided, but it still allows us to infer and do follow on study if desired, but capture the majority of situations.

But to your second point above, I think this is the point of the study. I certainly read it that way. One doesn't have to be a mind reader, but rather, if one can see these behaviors in their partner, they can forecast their marital success (lack there of) and more difficult to do as mentioned above is, can one see these behaviors in oneself?

GretchenJ

02-07-2016, 12:35 PM

But with respect to the counter argument, there are some significant issues to consider. First, the data you provided is, indeed, a survey. The data I provided is a study. These are significantly different things. The former is a reporting of a status, the latter is a test of a hypothesis where disproving that hypothesis is a possibility. Secondly, the time frame is hugely different. More than decade vs a moment in time.

But, and this is the most important point, can't wives "strongly dislike" cross dressing in a relationship with a solid foundation? The like/hate part of this self reported survey is irrelevant.

Hi Jenn ,
First off, at the end of the day, we will be still be friends, and that this is a debate, and I respect your views and that your views on this subject are clear and well stated. And I do not disagree with the vast majority of what you are saying, Trust is a huge factor in a relationship.

i would debate that in this case that a study is not that much different than this survey, based on the fact that the study was based on a very very small sample size and even more importantly in a concise geographic area.

To your question strongly dislike is the same as like/hate is very relevent. There is a red line in any relationship in which going over it may end in the termination of the relationship. I am going to use words like May and might instead of will because the only thing I absolutely know is that there are no absolutes.

i think your grasp of how you see yourself as a strictly a crossdresser, makes it easier (but still hard work) to navigate you and your wife through the marriage. I will just throw out things, unscientifically which MAY cross the red line regardless of how solid the foundation is

- Religious and Moral Beliefs of the Spouse - One of the benefits of the Caitlyn saga, was that she sent a trial balloon out to the people around us, and got a true understanding of what people thought about crossdressers and the transgender community. Your spouse may love you more than anything, but you may be asking a lot of your spouse to swallow, which could be too much of a load to bear. This MAY have a lesser effect in the Midwest , where the study was taken , as opposed to the South, where religion has a more day to day effect or even the Middle East, where such exhibited behavior can result in death

- Beliefs of the Family - even if your wife is on board, your mother, father, mother in law or father in law may not. You are now putting burden on the spouse to either not tell them (is that a lie ?) or disclose to them and deal with some rather harsh circumstances.

- Social Stances - you wife may work work for a company where the outcome of disclosure is minimalized, but what isf she worked in local government, the police department, or a school. What is the outcome for her if someone recognizes you. This again is the same if you disclose to your wife or in the closet, but is still an argument as to the divorce and a solid relationship balance.

- Children - what will be the effect of disclosing this to you children, even if they are of school age. Your spouse may cope with this fine, but your children may not, what will this do and affect the relationship and the marriage.

- Fear of expansion - ok you are not gay, you just want to dress up from time to time, do you want to become a woman ? To some, the answer to the last part may be I don't know, or not at this time. The relationship may be solid as a rock, but the spouse has to take a major leap of faith here, and maybe with many years of marriage under her belt, does she want to invest more time into this marriage if 5 years from now, the husband now wants to transition

VeronicaMoonlit

02-07-2016, 12:55 PM

Some women cannot be married to a crossdressing husband. Period.

I would say that is true, for some. But I would also say that the earlier in a relationship one tells, the more likely a positive outcome is to happen. And if one told in the beginning stages, then one can filter out those with issues with it.

Brand everyone with a less than perfect relationship as lying, cowardly and selfish and through diminishing them promote the "out to wifey" crowd as the arbiters of righteousness..????

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

It changes nothing: Everyone has a choice - there are no right or wrongs

Some choices are objectively better than others and yes there are right and wrongs.

- your values are not my values - your wife is not my wife and you are not me... :tongueout:

Your values include deception then? Look....over and over what do the wives say? They say they wished they'd been told sooner, and upfront. The WIVES want a choice.

PS: Meant to say: No - my marriage does not have a solid foundation, which means I get a pass, right? <lookingfortheagincourtemoticon>

The English lost the Hundred Years War in the end, just sayin.

Simply: there is no proof of anything in the study you refer to. :)

Might as well just say: "I'm covering my ears and putting my head in the sand and not listening. LA LA LA"

All this to say, this article does not justify your well know stance that telling is the only way forward.

Is there another way? The WIVES want to be told, they say this over and over. We see that waiting tends to produce less positive outcomes, we see that being found out is even less likely to produce a positive outcome. There are objectively good decisions, like the one where people tell BEFORE marriage. Failing that, tell before being found out.

But from my perspective it is "their" decision, not yours, not mine or anyone else's to force, cajole or shame them into.

Sometimes people NEED to be shamed or cajoled to do the right thing that they KNOW they should be doing in the first place. Hell, racists had to be shamed.

Again, I am not saying don't tell,

Good.

I am just saying make an informed decision and a fluff piece article from the internet IMO does not qualify as hard evidence to base the big tell on.

Who needs hard evidence? The WIVES say they wish they had been told UPFRONT, it's that simple.

Notice how much I'm mentioning the wives and what they want?

Veronica

Sallee

02-07-2016, 01:12 PM

I would agree DADT relationship sucks and are not healthy. I think it comes to the wife accepting the cross dressing intellectually but not being able to accept it emotionally. Try as she might the emotional acceptance just doesn't happen. Every time the partner goes to dress with it is in secret or they announce that they will be going out for a dressing section the spouse loses more emotion in the relationship.
The spouse has to accept the dressing and the dresser has to keep it in perspective, both can be hard to do

Marcelle

02-07-2016, 01:36 PM

Sometimes people NEED to be shamed or cajoled to do the right thing that they KNOW they should be doing in the first place. Hell, racists had to be shamed. Veronica

So now CDers who don't tell their wives are likened to racists? What next? . . . Good analogy.

Katey888

02-07-2016, 01:39 PM

Ignoring the rather silly slights, let me just address this and make it really, really simple for you...

Simply: there is no proof of anything in the study you refer to.
Might as well just say: "I'm covering my ears and putting my head in the sand and not listening. LA LA LA"

Who's not listening here...? The study only deals with 21 actual divorces... Do you not understand how tiny this sample is compared with the number of people that divorce in the USA every year (800,000+)...?

To put it in context, it's like an exit poll in an election (you're having one of those this year) that asked 20 people in one city and gave a prediction of the entire outcome based on just those responses... Risky? You bet. My concern is that someone may base their actions on a premise as minimalistic in it's sample as this.... but actually, I suppose if they do, that's just Darwin at work again.

And remind me - are you married? With kids...? :)

Katey

pamela7

02-07-2016, 02:26 PM

The Four Horsemen concept i came across in 2007, and over time I believe it's a great model; it's not true nor universal but it is a great pointer, and i can see for sure relationships where i developed a level of contempt for another person did indeed fail (at work for example, or with someone i refused to work with).

Sometimes a straw will break the camels' back. It's not the straw's fault and it's not the camel's either. I don't pretend to understand non-accepting SO's, but I do respect we all have limits or things that disgust us; and if a SO has that sort of response, well it's not going to work, is it? So tell before it gets expensive; the price of secrets and lies.

Shelly Preston

02-07-2016, 02:33 PM

Does your relationship have a solid foundation?

This was the original question, What follows are reasons to justify that or the opposing positon.

However there are so many variables in a relationship it can be difficult to tell which is the most critical in each case.

Most of these have been mentioned in other posts. A lot of relationships survive the most horrendous ups and downs. Are these built on a solid foundation, most would say yes but there is always an exception. As for surveys and statistics, well we know politicans can make them mean anything. Only if they are large enough groups will there be anything meaningful to assess. the most obvious being a census. Also surveys depend on honesty. Think when was the last time you were truly honest when asked.

Its easy to say we should be up front and honest if in a relationship. Only those involved can decide if that is the correct choice.

VeronicaMoonlit

02-07-2016, 02:38 PM

So now CDers who don't tell their wives are likened to racists? What next? . . . Good analogy.

No, they're likened to people who are doing a thing they shouldn't be doing. Not only that, but they KNOW they shouldn't be doing it. You may be reluctant to give advice because of personal experience, but bad things can happen when you DON"T act. Your philosophy is the paralysis of inaction, admittedly with good intentions. You're worried about "individual losses" and I'm think that people should be doing the thing that has the highest probability of a positive outcome?

But that doesn't really matter because the WIVES WOULD HAVE PREFERRED TO BE TOLD UPFRONT. And it just so happens that doing so tends to lead to the best outcomes.

Ignoring the rather silly slights, let me just address this and make it really, really simple for you...

Why yes, the statistical sample IS small. But I think it's significant enough, especially with all the "data" we have seen here over the years. Remember, crossdressing isn't something new, people wrote books about THIS VERY ISSUE many years ago.

My concern is that someone may base their actions on a premise as minimalistic in it's sample as this.... but actually, I suppose if they do, that's just Darwin at work again.

But that doesn't really matter, because the Wives say they would have preferred being told upfront.

And remind me - are you married? With kids...? :)

No, but that doesn't matter because I know better than to marry someone and have kids and not tell them about myself being transgendered. I have known that for lets see, when did I read Peggy Rudd's book where the topic of telling was discussed... think it was 1990 or 91.

Sure the people in that situation who haven't told are in a bind..... but it is a PREVENTABLE bind. Now I make some allowances for those who got married a pre 1990 and especially those married in the 50's 60's or 70's...but after that I have less sympathy. The information's been out there for years on what works.

Veronica

mykell

02-07-2016, 02:59 PM

this was the question....

In response to the "My will divorce me if I tell her," crowd, I have written many times, that with a solid foundation, any relationship can survive the revelation of cross dressing. I do not mean to start a debate about that again here, rather, I wanted to provide some scientific data to this long standing debate:

http://www.businessinsider.com/4-behaviors-can-predict-divorce-2015-1

Notable in these findings is that cross dressing, of course, is not a reason for divorce. This study can help to objectively measure how solid things really are.

The Key indicators "the four horsemen of the apocalypse (https://books.google.com/books?id=VdeGnDkuZNcC&pg=PA68&dq=The+four+horsemen+of+the+apocalypse:+Warning+si gns&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P9fLVKaeLvDgsASs44LoDQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)" that predict divorce with 93% accuracy:

Contempt
Criticism
Defensiveness
Stonewalling

The question for anyone is, can you look at your relationship objectively?

this is the OP, if you want to debate "tell or dont tell" here is last weeks rendition which was shut down for getting way too personal....
lorileah said we have to wait 6 weeks for another

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?236358-Why-lie-to-your-SO-wife

can we discuss this without getting sidetracked into personal quips at each other and every sentence dissected and twisting the meaning of a persons whole post with sidetracked debates....

GretchenJ

02-07-2016, 03:09 PM

But that doesn't really matter because the WIVES WOULD HAVE PREFERRED TO BE TOLD UPFRONT. And it just so happens that doing so tends to lead to the best outcomes.

Why yes, the statistical sample IS small. But I think it's significant enough, especially with all the "data" we have seen here over the years. Remember, crossdressing isn't something new, people wrote books about THIS VERY ISSUE many years ago.

But that doesn't really matter, because the Wives say they would have preferred being told upfront.

Based upon what stud(y)ies do you make this assertion as fact?

If this is taken for fact, then why are the MAJORITY of the people on this site who have told there spouses, and are still together are in a DADT relationship? They want to know up front, and then don't want to know anything else about what's going on after the fact? This makes no sense to me? They do not want to know because the level of acceptance is clearly not there, I guess the better question for the GG's that are in a DADT relationship is would you be happier if your spouse did not tell you in the first place?

- - - Updated - - -

All relationships require work, especially marriages, and too much complacency will hurt any relationship

Hi Gillian,

100% agree, it takes commitment, sacrifice and tons of work, but it is a work of love, and anything that is a work of love is well worth doing?

Ashley01

02-07-2016, 04:04 PM

Oddly cding probably saved my relationship*. This time last year I was completely in the closet - though there wasn't much dressing going on so I didn't see any need to tell her. We were getting on really badly; lots of arguments and unhappiness - I recognise a lot of stuff from the 'four horsemen' article posted earlier in the thread.

We decided to discuss the relationship - never thought I would end up mentioning CDing - and in the discussion it sort of came out.

It took a while to adjust to the new world, but now we are getting on amazingly well. It's like a whole new relationship. Now I dress in front of her, though not the children, and I am much happier in myself. I'm much more relaxed and easier to live with. We communicate much better - dressed or not - and we appreciate each other much more. I am not sure that we would still be together if I hadn't told her.

I have been very lucky, I do know that. It may also have helped that things reached an equilibrium quite quickly and my SO is happy with that position -- though I am very careful that I don't take that (or her) for granted.

Ashley

*You could argue that it might never have got into such a mess if I had been more honest originally, but actually I didn't realise that it was as big a part of me as it has turned out to be - or that it would have helped to bring it out into the open. I simply didn't realise. Perhaps I would have told her sooner if I'd realised how important it was.

Sky

02-07-2016, 04:38 PM

Contempt?

What do you know? Who do you think you are?

Criticism?

I mean, I don't think you're right. Actually you're completely wrong.

Defensiveness?

Why are you telling this to me? Does it always have to be my fault?

Stonewalling?

Just leave me alone, would you? There's no way these reasons have anything to do with divorce.

ReineD

02-08-2016, 01:26 AM

You posit that based on this article so long as you are not riding shotgun with the "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse" and you tell your wife . . . things will be all sunshine and lollipops because cross dressing would not be the issue as she can accept that in you.

I think that fundamentally, couples know whether their relationships are on solid ground or not. They know if they often feel irritated with their partners or if they live parallel lives without genuine connectivity. So I didn't take Jen's post as saying that everyone should tell their wives, but rather CDers should look at the health of the marriage prior to the divorce and stop blaming the wife's non-acceptance of the CDing if their marriage wasn't strong to begin with.

We do often read, "We got divorced because my wife was non-accepting". It is more likely, as Jen suggests, that the break-up occurred for much deeper reasons than a husband who wants to crossdress occasionally.

And again to agree with Jen, I think if the marriage is not on solid ground it would be beneficial to strengthen it first with the help of a competent marital counselor before even attempting to tackle how the CDing should be navigated.

I agree completely with this:

"...but more importantly, the other big symptom characteristic to behavioral addictions which is acting out in anger, irritability, moodiness, and experiencing craving, restlessness or depression when the person cannot engage in their preferred activities. Call it a sort of bullying. Right?"

But as it relates to this study, for example, could "contempt," cover someone who has negative compulsive behaviors, a me first, me only attitude?

I think that exhibiting withdrawal symptoms (https://www.elementsbehavioralhealth.com/behavioral-process-addictions/internet-gambling-addicts-also-suffer-from-withdrawal/) (irritability, moodiness, anger, restlessness, or a wish to "not be there", etc) and acting out on them falls above and beyond the ways that spouses cease to respect and listen to one another in marriages where compulsions aren't an issue.

These are real chemical reactions in the brain that cause such behaviors. Unfortunately, because the research is just now beginning to determine that the same brain processes are involved when objects/behaviors /situations are involved just as they are with addictive substances like drugs and alcohol, few people are able to place their out-of-control, non drug-related behaviors in the same boat as alcohol and drug addiction. So they try to find other ways to rationalize their behaviors. But, such people do need a different type of help (if they want to stop experiencing the withdrawal symptoms), even if they did have the best marital counselors that helped teach the couples better communication and listening skills. Contempt, criticism, defensiveness and stonewalling can all be overcome with improved relationship skills if a couple wants to save their marriage and if it is not too late (if the couple's marriage has not been dysfunctional for years on end, with no attempt to resolve the issues). But overcoming compulsions is on a different plane.

Again, I want to be clear and say that the above DOES NOT apply to the emotional turmoil that transsexuals experience when not living in their preferred gender with matching body. Being transsexual is not a compulsive behavior. But the CDing can certainly become compulsive for some CDers (not everyone) to varying degrees depending on the person, just like any other compulsion/addiction.

Dinky39

02-08-2016, 04:58 AM

I would have liked to have been told,rather than to find out. I can accept the dressing but it's the lies,deceit& cover ups over the years that upset me. I wasn't going crazy,just lied to over&over. It was that rather than the cross dressing that was sending me towards the divorce courts.

Marcelle

02-08-2016, 05:57 AM

We do often read, "We got divorced because my wife was non-accepting". It is more likely, as Jen suggests, that the break-up occurred for much deeper reasons than a husband who wants to crossdress occasionally.

Hi Reine,

You missed the point of my post. I was pointing out that Jen posited the study demonstrates that cross dressing was not the reason for the break-up (her words not mine) but that the four markers were. This is not proved by the study because it was not the center of the research question. If the study had examined relationships which broke up where the spouse cross dresses and then it was proven that if a relationship was not solid (i.e., markers present) SOs would leave their spouses but if the relationship was solid (i.e., no markers) then the SO would stay and work things out . . . then the assertion divorce is not about cross dressing would ring true. The fundamental flaw with the study and the assertion made is that "cross dressing" was not a variable in the study. It is just as likely that a solid foundation marriage could go to he** in a hand basket when the SO finds out (either by discovery or self outing) the husband likes to wear women's clothing. So yes, while I agree that solid marriages make for better marriages and the four markers can lead do dissolution . . . it is a stretch to say . . . "see it wasn't cross dressing but these other things" . . . the study does not prove that or even address it. This is the problem with statistics . . . they can be used to provide an argument in favor of anything.

I would also like to add if this was such a rock solid piece of psychological/scientific insight it would have been published in a top tier journal like Journal of Applied Psychology (JAP) or Journal of Applied Social Psychology (JSAP) which are peer reviewed up the hoop to ensure its viability to the scientific literature. The fact it was only published by the online "Buisness Insider" makes it a bit dubious as adding to the psychological literature writ large.

And again to agree with Jen, I think if the marriage is not on solid ground it would be beneficial to strengthen it first with the help of a competent marital counselor before even attempting to tackle how the CDing should be navigated.

On that we agree, which is why I advocate so much for allowing people to get their head straight and marriage on good ground before the big tell. When and if the individual is ready to tell their SO then they are at a place where they feel their marriage is solid enough to withstand the angst that will follow (for both parties). Their head is in the game and they will be ready to discuss, debate, compromise and move forward. Even then, as I indicated above just because the marriage is solid on all fronts in day to day life, entering the extraneous variable of "Dear, I really like to dress like a woman and act all girly" into the equation can skew the distribution so severe that even the strongest marriage may not survive.

Cheers

Marcelle

Nadine Spirit

02-08-2016, 07:39 AM

Interesting discussion. I have enjoyed reading it this morning. Very articulate responses.

To address the OP: no my relationship does not have a solid foundation. Unfortunately my wife and I struggle with the four horsemen almost on a daily basis. So... Would our relationship survive "the big tell?" I seriously doubt it. But I never hid any of my TG leanings from my wife to begin with thus there is no looming "big tell."

So.... essentially I agree with the premise, if I had never told my wife, and with all of our continuing relationship difficulties, would the reveal of crossdressing lead to my divorce? Yes. But it would be the straw that broke the camels back and not the sole reason for the dissolution of the union.

I think that the decision to tell or not is a personal one that most people base upon what they would want. Would they rather their spouse tell them things or not? If you are the type that would rather be told everything, then you are more likely to tell. If you are the type that would rather have your spouse not tell you things then you will assume that your wife is the same, and you will surmise that you are doing them a favor and being kind and nice, and doing the right thing by not telling them. But it is nit based on their opinions it is based on your own. In order to truly understand their thoughts on the matter, you would have to first tell them so that they have the opportunity to respond and tell you what they would want. Otherwise you are only speculating.

NicoleScott

02-08-2016, 08:45 AM

Mikell, I too find it irritating when a post is quoted and rebutted one sentence at a time. "Everything you said is wrong" would be much easier, right?
While the title and question of the OP is about strong foundation relationships, the topic of the OP brings the crossdressing revelation into it. If not, what's it doing here? The OP made some claims about telling that needed to be challenged, and many responders did (and quite successfully).
The study was not about crossdressing yet crossdressing conclusions were improperly made.

sarahcsc

02-08-2016, 09:45 AM

Thank you for the informative link, Jen. I really enjoyed it.

My parents were good friends with the 4 horsemen and they invited them in for dinner every night at the dinner table. I'm not surprised that they are divorced, but I am surprised it took them so long. I wonder if having children made a difference.

There are some who criticize the study which is understandable, but the amount of work the researchers poured into it is definitely commendable.

Sure, the ideal study would be to interview 800,000 pairs of divorced couple, or to follow-up a million couples over 3 decades, then perform a factor analysis and a multiple regression to find out what factors contribute to divorce, but we all know that that is unrealistic.

We need to be reasonable when determining what constitutes "scientific rigor". The Bradford Hill criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Hill_criteria) is a good guide and although the "strength" of this study is lacking, it makes up for its short comings in other criterias such as "plausibility", "coherence", and perhaps "biological (psychological in this case) gradient.

Therefore, I disagree with those who said that this study "proves nothing". I simply say it proves something, but we need more study to determine what that something is. Until then, this serves as a good guide.

What this study cannot answer however, is "does crossdressing increases the risk of divorce"? Crossdressing is not one of the mentioned horsemen, although it stands to reason that it could be turned into "contempt". More study is needed.

Somebody mentioned that "some women just can't be with men who crossdresses. Period." And I like to add some context to that.

Marriage in contemporary culture is very different to how it was many years ago. In fact, we expect so much from our spouses today that it is almost a miracle to stay together without harboring a tiny bit of resentment for each other. Our concept of marriage today is fairly recent and in my opinion, has pros and cons. If a wife divorces a husband who crossdresses, part of it is due to the wife's preferences of what a "man" should be, but the other part of it is due to what her perception of what "marriage" represents. That is, in a marriage, a husband is supposed be a friend/sexual partner/confidant/provider/etc. It challenging enough trying to navigate one of those roles but it must be a nightmare juggling all the roles at once. We would not have so many divorces today if our spouses are not expected to meet the demands of so many roles at once, after all, nobody is perfect.

I also sense some bitterness here, which is interesting considering how neutral this topic started off. Perhaps, for some, blaming the divorce on the crossdressing is less painful than looking at nature of their failed marriage itself, which often involves quite a bit of self-reflection.

Last but not least, thank you Jen. :)

Love,
S

NicoleScott

02-08-2016, 10:15 AM

The topic was never neutral, as the OP states that crossdressing never causes divorce, doesn't want to debate it, defends it with a study that identifies four key indicators of divorce, and concludes: see, CDing isn't one of them.
By this reasoning, a study that identifies peoples' three favorite fruits as apples, oranges, and strawberries, see, nobody likes peaches.

Marcelle

02-08-2016, 10:29 AM

. . . There are some who criticize the study which is understandable, but the amount of work the researchers poured into it is definitely commendable.

Sure, the ideal study would be to interview 800,000 pairs of divorced couple, or to follow-up a million couples over 3 decades, then perform a factor analysis and a multiple regression to find out what factors contribute to divorce, but we all know that that is unrealistic.

We need to be reasonable when determining what constitutes "scientific rigor". The Bradford Hill criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradford_Hill_criteria) is a good guide and although the "strength" of this study is lacking, it makes up for its short comings in other criterias such as "plausibility", "coherence", and perhaps "biological (psychological in this case) gradient.

Therefore, I disagree with those who said that this study "proves nothing". I simply say it proves something, but we need more study to determine what that something is. Until then, this serves as a good guide.

What this study cannot answer however, is "does crossdressing increases the risk of divorce"? Crossdressing is not one of the mentioned horsemen, although it stands to reason that it could be turned into "contempt". More study is needed.

S,

What this study lacks is definite scientific rigor because it is not evidenced in the reporting. Yes, 800,000 divorced couples is not realistic but a simple power analysis will demonstrate that 29 couples is not a sufficient alpha to conduct a study. I suspect this is a correlational study which is not causal by relation only. Causality can only be established via a regression analysis or MANOVA and the fact this was published in a third if not fourth tier journal only leads me to suspect there was no multivariate analysis conducted.

The point I made was not that the study proves nothing, indeed it does show a relationship between the four factors and divorce. My concern is that the OP cites this as scientific proof that cross dressing is not the reason for divorce so have it and let your spouse know. So long as your relationship is strong your SO will be fine. This is conjecture at best as "cross dressing" was not a manipulated IV in this study. Sorry, you can extrapolate all you want but the science is not there.

BTW . . . no bitterness here just a scientific voice of reason and, my marriage is fine . . . so conjecture again.

M

mykell

02-08-2016, 10:42 AM

edit in bold,

apart from the title:
The question for anyone is, can you look at your relationship objectively?

this was the other question, i will say no, too many variables, one would have to be honest, sometimes that hurts, impartial ? without prejudice ? open minded ? and from all accounts with these types of threads, neither can most here, what generally happens is you are judged by someone elses morals, philosophy, convictions, and of coarse the "big" boss, your spouses....

everything else is a numbers game....

its like "war games" the movie...... "want to start a thread", the computer would offer, "what a terrible topic, there are no winners....what would be the point...."

BillieAnneJean

02-08-2016, 10:57 AM

I need to preface this with a disclaimer:
I am "just" a crossdresser. Therefore my path is easier because I don't have the trauma that transitioning seems to bring to some relationships. What I say here applies to my relationship as "just" a crossdresser. My admiration for those who are trans is well documented.

(As a CDer)
I love my wife with every molecule in my body.
She loves me back the same.
I spent all day yesterday with her.
It was one of the best days of my life.
Yesterday I was "the guy" she was "the girl" that met multiple decades ago.
Yes we have a solid foundation.
Oh yes there have been cracks. There has been loss. Like all lives together there has been some pain.

But I can count on her. She will always be able to count on me.

We are fortunate and also we are diligent to maintain that foundation.

Please consider your SO when you do things for yourself. If things aren't so good, try small improvements. Even if there seems there is no hope. Try small improvements. Like telling her that you appreciate something that she usually does for the two of you. Do something once a week that she likes to do. There was something there that caused you to to be drawn together a long time ago. Try to find it again.

For those transitioning and in marriages, my heart goes out to you, your SO, and your children.

S. Lisa Smith

02-08-2016, 11:30 AM

Well said, Billie!!!!

Joni T

02-08-2016, 11:41 AM

i also remember t he saying that "liars figure and figures lie",

Actually the old adage is '' Liars never figure and figures never lie''.
Jon

mykell

02-08-2016, 11:48 AM

joni you must be a politician....today you can make figures say whatever you need them too by changing the rules you use to extrapolate them, the adage seems to work both ways, much like us, but i did answer the question with the assumed percentage....

Stephanie47

02-08-2016, 02:01 PM

I tried to put my nickel in the other day and was too loquacious. I got timed out. Sigh! Anyway, these four attributes are destined to destroy any marriage for any underlying reason. I will agree the limited sample of 21 marriages is not a valid survey. Contempt, criticism, defensiveness and stonewalling can sink a marriage. There are other issues that can also sink a marriage, and, those issues do not have to display overt actions. Sometimes there is just a plain realization one or both parties did not think things through. Love is blind or so it is said. Get all wrapped up in puppy love and sex, and, later sometimes there is the realization the parties never adequately discussed goals and aspirations and made assumptions the other was going to be on board with everything and anything he or she cooked up.

Since I think the intent may have been to work these four attributes into a cross dressing discussion, I think cross dressing can be enough to break a marriage. I hate to say it or burst some bubbles around here, it is possible for one issue to destroy a marriage. I have known too many people who are poison. Poison in the sense they display overt hostility toward some people who are not like themselves. Some women have total hatred for cross dressing. It is a total deal breaker. I've said it before and I will say it again, the accusations of lying and deceit may be a cover for the innate hostility for cross dressing. It may be based on moral or religious principles or society may view the wife as defective, "Why does she stay with that cross dresser? What's wrong with her?"

I've read some threads or comments over the years that I can truly say if I tried that crap on my wife, she'd kick my ass out of the house.

ReineD

02-08-2016, 03:03 PM

Hi Reine,

You missed the point of my post. I was pointing out that Jen posited the study demonstrates that cross dressing was not the reason for the break-up (her words not mine) but that the four markers were.

I went straight to the study link and saw this is a book about general marital health. The study does not include couples one of whom crossdresses and so I did not read into Jen's words that she thought it did. And as mentioned, it does make a lot of sense to me that if a marriage has a solid foundation and the couple feels connected (in other words, contempt, criticism, defensiveness and stonewalling is not a part of the couple's daily or weekly fabric), they have a much better chance of surviving the CDing (or any other other issue than can crop up in a marriage) than a couple who do not respect nor listen to each other and who instead engage in these four obstructive behaviors on a regular basis.

I took it that Jen:

1. Suggests that if marriages break down, it is likely for deeper reasons than the CDing, namely the four behaviors mentioned.
2. Implies that CDers should make sure their marriages are rock solid before expecting a wife's cooperation.
3. Implies that if there is a divorce, to look at how healthy was the marriage before assuming the reasons for the breakup was strictly a wife's non-acceptance.

That said (and for the sake of some of our members who may lump everyone in this forum in the same boat) I think Jen is speaking of only the CDing and not transsexualism which can be (but not always) impossible to navigate if a wife is heterosexual, no matter how healthy is the marriage. I really admire the women who stay in relationships with transitioned TSs. They are able to redefine their own hetero wants and needs in their relationships and also are able to flow with their changed social standing of being in a same-sex vs opposite-sex relationship. Doing this is no small task.

Marcelle

02-08-2016, 03:18 PM

In response to the "My will divorce me if I tell her," crowd, I have written many times, that with a solid foundation, any relationship can survive the revelation of cross dressing. I do not mean to start a debate about that again here, rather, I wanted to provide some scientific data to this long standing debate . . . notable in these findings is that cross dressing, of course, is not a reason for divorce. This study can help to objectively measure how solid things really are.

Reine,

When someone posits . . . "that cross dressing, of course, is not the reason for divorce" based on a study which has limitations quoted by its own author (the nature of qualitative vice quantitative data fed into a differential analysis) it implies something totally different from the intent of the study. The study used a canonical correlation to identify patterns of discussion (in an agreed upon sequential order) on a stratified sample (those who chose to respond) over a protracted time period during which any number of variables could have affected the relationship (i.e., not a controlled study). As I said the study points out some interesting factors which may affect relationship strength, but to state (as the OP does) it has nothing to do with cross dressing and if your relationship is strong then it will be fine . . . is conjecture and speculation. This was not the intent of the study and cannot be extrapolated to an IV which was not included in the study to state your wife will not divorce you if you tell.

Marcelle

ReineD

02-08-2016, 03:32 PM

Jenniferathome

02-08-2016, 03:58 PM

This, is clearly the answer:

"this study shows dysfunctional behaviors that lead to divorce and if they are not present in a marriage, then the CDing in itself need not cause divorce."

unnfortunately, because I am an advocate of coming out my motivations are questioned by some and attacked by others. Cross dressing is just a piece amongst many pieces that make up a relationship.

What is clear from the emotions here is that objectivity, self-reflection, whatever you choose to call it, is frightening. Objectivity is a rare trait it means you have to admit your failings.

Marcelle

02-08-2016, 04:10 PM

Jen,

So you do posit that based on the study you quoted, so long as your relationship is strong then it will survive a CDing relationship? I am not trying to argue nor questioning your motives. As much as you feel you are being attacked based on your "you must tell" stance, I am attacked based on my "tell when you are ready stance". Objectivity is in the eye of the beholder.

So if a strong relationships can survive CDing, then how do you explain DADT? If he relationship is strong it should be a "no issue" much like your circumstances. If the relationship is not strong then it should have been exit visas. In addition, if a relationship is strong on the outset and a person tells then why do so many end up on the skids. You cannot say with any certainty that these relationships had the four markers. As I noted, CDing was not a variable in the study and if it had of been entered the results might have been different . . . or not. Just saying, you put the study out there as scientific proof that CDing does not cause divorce but it has never been tested.

Marcelle

ReineD

02-08-2016, 04:20 PM

What is clear from the emotions here is that objectivity, self-reflection, whatever you choose to call it, is frightening. Objectivity is a rare trait it means you have to admit your failings.

When you put it that way, it doesn't surprise me that some members don't want to look at the overall health of their marriage and instead want to blame their wives. You put it in terms of "your failings" which comes off as placing the blame for a marital failure on the CDer's part. Small words are important. :p

In truth, when dysfunctional behaviors are present in a marriage it is both partner's fault ... unless of course one of the partners is blindsided with the other partner's addiction or compulsion - any addiction or compulsion, not just the CDing if the CDing (not transsexualism) has gone to the extreme and the CDer can no longer control it, so he suffers the behavioral withdrawal symptoms previously mentioned.

<edit>
In the case of non-outwardly dysfunctional marriages, three additional things have not been mentioned here that I think happens in cases where a CDer makes the decision to not tell his wife:

1. Codependency. Even if the marriage is not dysfunctional, some CDers may indeed accurately anticipate that their wives won't be happy initially and so they feel unable to face and work through the unhappiness. It is easier for them emotionally to proceed with the status quo, unfettered. This is codependency because the CDer is taking responsibility for his wife's emotions when in fact, she is the one responsible for overcoming her initial reactions (given her husband's willingness to work with her).

2. Fear of being constrained through having to work through an initial set of boundaries. This ties in with the above. The codependent CDer fears that his enjoyment of the CDing will be diminished even after a reluctant wife allows for time and space to crossdress and he doesn't want this to happen.

3. The CDer does sense on a deep level that his marriage is not on the best footing and the CDing might indeed be the straw to put it over the edge, even if there is no outward symptom of dysfunction in the marriage ... some couples simply do not talk to each other much and he does not know how to strengthen the marriage again (doing this takes 2 people). A lot of people settle into living parallel lives without noticing how distant they've grown over the years.

Hence, I believe, the tendency to believe "she'll divorce me if she finds out", for cases 1 and 2 (case 3 might be justified). I honestly think it's easier for some people to believe this than face their fears or codependency and the amount of work it takes to overcome them. But honestly if they don't crossdress that much, for example only on occasional business trips, and when they're home they're engaged in their male lives, then I can see a justification for keeping it in the dark. It is difficult to overcome fears, codependency, or bring the marriage up to the next level if it has grown distant. If the frequency of the CDing does not warrant telling, then why bother.

I could go on and on, but the big danger in NOT telling in the case of 1 & 2 above is if the wife finds out by mistake which can potentially be dangerous.

ReluctantDebutant

02-08-2016, 04:32 PM

You know it isn't drunk driving that kills people it is the severe blunt force trauma to the head and chest that is the cause of death in auto accidents.

Yes we can say the ultimate cause of the end of a marriage would be one or more of the "Four Horsemen" but the question will remain what was the trumpet call that sent them charging in the first place? Was it financial issues, sex issues, family issues, or a whole host of other issues?
Could cross-dressing be the trumpet? Could a loving wife turn contemptuous upon learning that her husband is a cross-dressers? Could cross-dressing become a point of criticism? Couldn't one or both parties become defensive over cross-dressing. "I wish you wouldn't go out dressed like that. You make me feel so embarrassed." "Why can't you understand I just like wearing a silk nightie to bed?" Isn't a DADT the epitome of stonewalling?

Is it possible for a marriage to have a good foundation before the revelation of cross-dressing comes in and shatters it like a bunker-busting bomb?

Tina_gm

02-08-2016, 04:58 PM

The problem with this study, obviously does not include CDing as a component. Even a study that does, would have to define what CDing is, which in a way is just about impossible. CDing has nearly unlimited X factors in it. There is nothing static about it at all.

Generically, a strong marriage can survive, sure. A strong marriage can survive almost anything. But, what if.... CDing makes a strong marriage a weak one? Then, one more crisis or issue comes along and snaps it, puts the marriage into the fail column. If it wasn't for the weakened state from the CDing, the marriage would have survived the whatever other crisis. It is kind of a circle.

Back to the X factors. CDing is survivable..... But, how does the partner view it, their beliefs, open or close mindedness to it. How long before it becomes known... months, years, decades? How did it become known, slowly telling bits and pieces, discovery without intent to tell, full upfront disclosure.... Is the CDing sexual/fetish in nature, is the CDer more inclined to need a full transformation but rarely vs some gender crossing on a regular basis.... And partners are as varied on their likes or abilities to deal with and tolerate based on the type of CDing. But what they might be ok with is opposite with what the CDer desires or needs.

My wife and I have had discussions about CDing along the way, I am not in a true DADT. My wife has talked about the "full plate" and that goes in with any general type of marital survey about strength and survival. A marriage without a full plate of problems and issues will likely survive one coming in. Not saying CDing has to be a problem, but it will generally at least fall into the issue column. If a lot is going on already, and CDing comes into the mix, then that might be the straw that breaks the camels back.... Is it really CDing, or just too much overload? It really can just go around and around and around.

I think most of us can agree that CDing, if it does not approach transsexualism without a already stressed marriage has a good chance at survival, but, could weaken it substantially. Then, if other issues come up, crisis, health, finance, you name it, which would otherwise have survived but for the CDing that came into play..... So what really is to blame? I think that becomes extremely subjective, just depends on how any one individual looks at it.

Jenniferathome

02-08-2016, 05:13 PM

When you put it that way, it doesn't surprise me that some members don't want to look at the overall health of their marriage and instead want to blame their wives. You put it in terms of "your failings" which comes off as placing the blame for a marital failure on the CDer's part. Small words are important. :p ...

I should have written that "one's failings" applies to both parties in a relationship. Asking two people to be objective is like some log function. Really hard.

ReineD

02-08-2016, 05:20 PM

Yes we can say the ultimate cause of the end of a marriage would be one or more of the "Four Horsemen" but the question will remain what was the trumpet call that sent them charging in the first place? Was it financial issues, sex issues, family issues, or a whole host of other issues?
Could cross-dressing be the trumpet? Could a loving wife turn contemptuous upon learning that her husband is a cross-dressers?

No. People who have good relationships (because they've had good relationship skills all along that include a willingness and ability to communicate, listen and compromise) do not forget these skills when issues come to the fore. If a wife turns contemptuous when she learns of the CDing it is because she is unable to see her husband's needs or state of mind and she is unwilling to work with him. This doesn't just pop-op out of the blue when couples feel connected. Even if the wife doesn't like the idea of CDing, she will not stonewall, become defensive, be contemptuous or criticize her husband. She will instead say, "I don't like the idea of the CDing but I'm willing to listen to what you have to say about it and if it important to you I'm willing to learn. I ask though that you give me time to wrap my mind around it". And if the husband is not contemptuous he will say, "I understand this is a surprise for you and I want to help you by not going too fast. Let's work on it in baby steps and find the best possible compromise for us."

Katey888

02-08-2016, 05:22 PM

Marcelle, I do agree with you that it is NOT notable in the findings that "CDing is not a reason for divorce", simply because the crossdressing was not examined in the study. And I may be guilty of making the assumption that Jen knows this because she read the study, so what she means instead is "this study shows dysfunctional behaviors that lead to divorce and if they are not present in a marriage, then the CDing in itself need not cause divorce."

Hands up everyone who has actually READ the study...??? :)

i haven't read the full study ...
It's only 8 pages long - perhaps we all should have done at the outset... :surrender:

The study was published in a peer-reviewed journal (Journal of Marriage and Family) but it was published in 2000 regarding the study that had started in 1983 and closed in 1997. My first thoughts on learning the dates of the study have been echoed many times by members here - simply, that folk back in the 1980s-90s just didn't have the same resources we have today to understand aspects of being CD/TG and therefore participants would not be likely to have the same sort of discussions they could today - three decades later - because at that time, CDing may well have been regarded as at least a psychological disorder and possibly even something that was broadly illegal, depending on your location (the study took place in Indiana - I have no idea of state laws at that time).

That may well have prevented or discouraged participants from discussing any CD/TG aspects in front of researchers - however, they may still have done and it could still have been one of the factors that contributed to a divorce. Why? I hear you ask... Because if you read the study, you will see that the methodology for research was to conduct interactive sessions with the participants that took the following structure:

They had three 15-minute conversations with regard to (a) events of the day, (b) conflict resolution (discussion of a problem area of continuing disagreement), and (c) a mutually agreed upon, pleasant topic.[My bold]
The study allowed participants to choose this 'problem area' and did not report back on any specifics related to what this was in detail. Given what we read here a lot from our DADT and freshly revealed folk, it's no great stretch to consider the possibility that CDing may very well have fallen into 'a problem area of continuing disagreement' as many here report continually, so in that context, CDing WOULD BE one of the elements that lead to (the 4 Horsemen plus contextual examples):
Contempt - from wives towards husbands that inexplicably want to dress as women...
Criticism - for obsessing with hair and new dresses...
Defensiveness - because these guys really believe they have a femme side...
Stonewalling - refusing to give it up "because it's a part of who they are"...

Jennifer - you're entitled to your opinion, but here's my problem with your starting point:

Notable in these findings is that cross dressing, of course, is not a reason for divorce. This study can help to objectively measure how solid things really are.

I think it's clear that it is not possible to derive this from the study - it's just not that simple. But I might surprise you now - I DO AGREE with these points that you made more recently:

Cross dressing is just a piece amongst many pieces that make up a relationship.

What is clear from the emotions here is that objectivity, self-reflection, whatever you choose to call it, is frightening. Objectivity is a rare trait it means you have to admit your failings.

I've admitted already I have them - and I know that my wife has some too - and I further have a good idea that some of them probably aren't fixable (on both sides) - so while I can see that it's an admirable ideal to be able to fix these issues which we already compromise over, are you prepared to accept that for some people with insoluble issues it makes it much more difficult (and impractical if not impossible) to be prepared to reveal a further mega-weird issue that might just be the last straw...?

Those are the people I want to protect from the idea that CDing is not a dealbreaker... folk like me.

Katey x

ReineD

02-08-2016, 05:37 PM

Katey, I think we already know that Jen didn't use the most accurate words to convey her meaning in the OP.

To the people who take it that Jen believes the CDing was included in the study and was proven to not be a cause in divorce, this is not what she meant. She meant there is little chance to resolve the CDing if the dysfunctional, divorce-causing behaviors outlined in the study are present in a marriage.

Jenniferathome

02-08-2016, 05:58 PM

Katey, the "full study" means the actual submission of the study for peer review. Not the synopsis, which I read and linked here.

mykell

02-08-2016, 07:04 PM

OK i :stirthepot:..... I used :google: to do a search of CD.com,

https://www.google.com/search?q=crossdressing+leads+to+divorse&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=crossdressing+leads+to+divorce+site:www.crossd ressers.com

i know all the results are not relevant but the percentage is from our site, (and yes this very thread is in the results) now add all the things we dont know here, those that just joined and were caught from overexposure from the ties to theyre devises and received the auto notifications, outed by default, wifey just got it while using your tablet, cant count them, a popular thread for most who first join,

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?187692-When-did-you-first-crossdress

youll recognize some but look at the ones with only a few posts, e-mail notifications scared them away or they got caught perhaps, the ones that left the browser open or any other careless thing imaginable, ive left things out and was lucky no one saw or questioned something out of place, cant count those instances that result in divorce, just examples and yes added to the other horseman attributes will add to this but crossdressing may be the final straw, or the thing that motivates the" horseman 4" into motion, now add in the ones who revealed that did not go well, all will not stick around to have us poke the dead carcus, never heard from again...

im just trying to add some perspective with a sample from our community as were stuck on the validity of the research, and were not the only forum for crossdressing.....cant count them.

sarahcsc

02-08-2016, 07:36 PM

unnfortunately, because I am an advocate of coming out my motivations are questioned by some and attacked by others. Cross dressing is just a piece amongst many pieces that make up a relationship.
[/COLOR]

The reason to come out is highly personal and variable and people come out not just for the sake of their marriage, but also for the sake of their own mental well-being. We can all agree that having poor mental well-being will have an adverse affect on relationships in general.

I'm afraid there is not a "one-size-fits-all" approach when it comes to coming out, even in the presence of a robust and well conducted study(in this case, a study with many limitations). Every couple is unique with its own trials and tribulations.

I am an advocate of "making-the-most-informed-decision-and-taking-responsibility-for-it".

Simply saying, we can only do what we think is best at the time and although having empirical evidence helps with our decision-making process, it should not be taken too literally. For example, there is ample evidence that crossing the road increases you risk of getting hit by a car, but that doesn't stop us from crossing it anyways.

Taking responsibility in this context, simply means that one must be ready to own the consequences for themselves without attributing it to other external factors. I believe there is merit is living an "authentic" life and by that we must be willing to own up to our actions and do things "our way" despite the consequences. As Frank Sinatra put it eloquently, "I did it my way".

Having said that, I still believe the 4 horsemen article was a good read and serves as a valuable guide in contemporary marriages, despite its limitations. :)

Love,
S

ReluctantDebutant

02-08-2016, 09:00 PM

Rather than beat around the bush I thought about looking for surveys that actually address the questions of cross-dressing, wives, marriage, and divorce. I came across this article on the first page http://www.tgforum.com/wordpress/index.php/research-on-the-wives-of-crossdressers-questionnaire-ii-report-3/. It surveyed 210 wives of cross-dressers and collected a lot of raw data. what seems relevant to this discussion is that while 30% of the women surveyed thought about divorce only 8% actually did divorce their cross-dressing husbands. What I think is really feared by cross-dressers is the 78% who wished their spouse didn't cross-dress and nearly 70% of the wives said there had been a loss of intimacy due to crossdressing. One-third reported that crossdressing had caused “a very harmful impact” on their marital sexual relationship. About one-third become more disgusted and negative. About one-third change little or not at all. About one-third changes somewhat in a positive direction.

ReineD

02-08-2016, 11:28 PM

OK i :stirthepot:..... I used :google: to do a search of CD.com,

Mikell, I'm sorry but we can't assume that what CDers say here after a divorce is objective. Of course they'll think their SOs left them because the SO's hated the thought that a man should want to wear women's clothes. It's just so much easier to pin it on the SO's hate of the CDing than to look deeply into their dynamics and see where both parties contributed to the marriage's dysfunction even before the CDing was an issue. But, if you got all those women here, I bet they'd tell you a different story.

I have a good reason for saying this. One, I've heard both sides of the story over the years from dozens of couples, and the wife's account seldom matches the husband's.

Two and this is a more concrete example (I wish it had happened more often), but a new-ish CDer had started a thread saying how non-accepting his wife was. Every member took his side and some were even angry at the wife .... until she found this forum on her own, recognized the circumstances her husband had described, joined the forum, and posted directly in the thread telling everyone the second half of the story that the husband had not shared.

And then all the members understood. Their advice to the OP took a 180 degree turn. lol.

Still, if you want to see the other side of all the "divorced because she hates the CDing" search result, take a look at the "accepting and tolerating spouses who don't leave their husbands":

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/tags.php?tag=accepting+wives%2C+supportive+so%2C+

Bottom line ... if you really want to know how GGs react to all of this and why, then it's simple: Go straight to the horse's mouth and pay attention what the GGs say in their threads. Close attention. :) Unfortunately I think that a lot of the GG's posts are ignored around here. I guess it feels better to kvetch than to look inwardly. :meditate:

mykell

02-09-2016, 04:51 PM

hi reine, i did see this this morning but did not have time to address it,
like i said not all those threads pulled up from our site were going to be relevant or apply and again there are other CDing sites,

my basic premise was that everyone was throwing about stats any surveys and numbers, i was trying to point out that we have numbers here and like most say that we never can find a true percentage of crossdressers that exist how could we ever find a true number of folks that divorced as a root cause and or coupled by the existing or caused in addition to CDing the characteristics with our four horsemen. theyre are so many not even being counted for whatever reason and wanted to throw that into the mix.

sorry to go off topic....
i think i pay attention to what the GGs say here and once asked the we had a dedicated ask a GG thread and in no uncertain terms was told that it was never going to happen been there done that and it was a disaster..... but i always find it very hard to follow the sticky thread and honestly gave up on it, i feel the reason the forum is what it is "is because of the GGs" but most dont bother to come into our section or follow it and at most its a small percentage of dedicated respondents, you being well on top of the list and very informative and knowledgeable....