Ultimatum!!!

[xNicolex]

Ok so this question may result in some interesting answers, but I was just wondering given the choice between never dressing again, and I mean never not even in secret :eek: and keeping your partner which would you choose? The torment of not being able to do the one thing you love :brolleyes: or keeping the one person you love :sad: this is a tough one even though it would be a hard thing not to dress I would chose given the option my partner because I love her above all else :o but I know it may not be as easy as that for everyone but feel free to share :)

[Stephanie47]

I think I made some comments several years ago on this thread that ultimatums really do not play well in a marriage. Ultimatums usually mean there is more issues that are troubling in a marriage. My cross dressing per implied agreement, i.e., not etched in stone on the mount, that my wife does not want to participate in my cross dressing. So, it is strictly "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." There is none of that encroachment I read about on this site, i.e., shave the body and see what the wife may say. Or, just paint the toe nails. Women are not stupid or blind to what the husband may do behind her back. So, issues of trust arise. If you look at me today, I'm not dressing at all. It's an unshaven male with jeans and sport shirt. Maybe, Wednesday I'll get a chance to be en femme, but, before my wife comes home from work Stephanie will be tucked away. What I'm saying is I value my wife.

That being said. Since we have had this tacit agreement for over thirty years and I have not violated it, then I'd say if she were to say to me totally out of the blue "You need to get rid of whatever women's clothing you have or get out," then I'd say "I'm out of here!" There would have to be more than just screaming out after thirty years that she does not like a cross dressing husband.

I think one has to realize a husband is a person with quirks, kinks and self identity, as well as his wife having the same.

Frankly, if both the husband and wife value each other the cross dressing issue usually can work out.

[Diversity]

For me, I would have to come to an acceptable arrangement, To do otherwise would not be right for me and would show that she does not care enough for me or my happiness. If you are doing your dressing in the closet, you are not hurting anyone.
If she truly loves you back, then she should not object to this. Are you sure her feelings are not about control?
Remember- if she truly loves you back, she would be caring about your happiness.
Di

[kittie60]

Simply put I Don't. Do Ultimatums. Not one bit on anything. That's nor saying I won't compromise cause I have. Nothing wrong with that, but to have someone tell me it's this way or else I always take the or else. Thats just me.

[docrobbysherry]

I'm not big on imaginary situations that aren't realistic. If u received that untimatum, (as a number of cd.com members have), there r always ways for u to dress secretly if u want to badly enuff.

If u would like to see what they r, Nicole? Just read the accounts of many who post here!

[NicoleScott]

Nicole, I am assuming from your thread title that we are given an ultimatum to "quit CDing or we're done" by our partner. If so:
I don't believe that I have an obligation to respond to an ultimatum, that is, make a choice of those offered. By issuing the ultimatum, she is asking you to choose so she doesn't have to. A cop out. An attempt to transfer decision-making from her to you. A way to get her way and make it your choice (your fault). Declining to make a choice is putting it back in her lap. The ultimatum says "if you continue to crossdress, I will leave you" but it makes the split your choice.
My response:
"I am driven to cross dress by an unknown but strong and relentless internal drive. Not crossdressing will certainly result in some unwanted negative consequences for me. I do my best to maintain a normal and stable life aside from occasional and responsible crossdressing in private. I'm saddened that you see my crossdressing as a litmus test for us being together. I will miss you."

[sometimes_miss]

I have to state up front that I don't 'love' to crossdress. It's something I do because I feel like I'm supposed to, not because of any joy that I get out of it, rather, it feels normal to dress as a girl, and uncomfortable to dress as a guy (think of wearing a bathing suit at a formal function; sure, you might be in a guy's bathing suit, but you'll still feel uncomfortable feeling that you're in the wrong clothes. That's how I feel whenever dressed as a guy, that constant feeling of being in the wrong clothes).
I wasn't in the position where I had to make the choice early in my marriage; when things were going well in my relationships, the urge to crossdress didn't rear it's ugly head. It was when things went wrong that the urge to crossdress wasn't able to be suppressed anymore. Once I realized that stress without any relief would let the 'girl' out of the bag, it became obvious that if I didn't crossdress, I would become increasingly irritable and not a pleasant person to live or work with, as I became short tempered and easily angered and frustrated. So it was a toss up; crossdress, and lose the girlfriend, or wind up losing the girlfriend because I became not such a nice person to be with anymore. Either way, I lose. As I gradually learned that so few women want anything to do with crossdressers, the point became moot. Now I just don't tell, and gradually try to find out how she feels about the subject of men who feel like we should be feminine. So far, I haven't had any luck finding someone who would be ok with it.

[2B Natasha]

Came that between myself and my now ex wife.

Had to choose the clothes and the ability to express myself. Oh I tried to make it work. But it built a ton of resentment on my part toward her and that in turn built up lack of trust and walls from her. After years of frustration on both our parts. It was no longer a workable situation. Divorce was the only real option. Which is why I told my current wife within 10minutes of meetings her.

[Teresa]

xNicolex,
That is a difficult one to answer, I'm not sure if a wife/partner would ever do that unless they had totally stopped loving you , in that case the relationship would be over anyway and perhaps CDing was the excuse they were looking for .

I came close to separation simply because the gap between my needs and my wife's acceptance appeared too wide , it was to be an amicable arrangement because we were both unhappy together but when it came to it the hurt our family would have suffered was too much to walk away from so fresh ground rules were worked out !
Who knows an ultimatum could still happen , if I can't live the compromised lifestyle or my wife just can't live with my CDing but it will come at a price ! Ultimatums don't just happen !

[Julia Welch]

Aren't ultimatums are thinly veiled/disguised threats? ... I'd never stay with someone who threatened me ... even if they backed down their feelings won't change, so why should you?

[ReineD]

Oh dear. xNicolex, the trouble with starting a thread with a "what if" situation that only superficially describes the more complex dynamics in a relationship where there is CDing, is that people will skim through it and put this thread down to YET ANOTHER example of relationships that fail because of the CDing.

We need to look at what would be a GG's reason to totally reject the CDing:


She has been lied to and feels betrayed.
Her SO engages in covert behaviors.
Her SO does not freely open up the lines of communication.
Her SO does not give respect to her fears and objections when she brings them up.
Her SO does not gives her time to wrap her head around it.
Her SO is not willing to work within a set of mutually accepted boundaries.
Her SO is unable to get out of the Pink Fog.
She holds her religious or moral values to extreme ends.
They are not in a committed relationship. It makes sense that if a relationship is rather new and not committed, the GG might decide it is not for her.



... or any other valid reason. My point is that in most relationships, providing there is a real commitment and connection, providing extreme religious or moral objection is not a factor, and providing the CDer is able to achieve balance, the likelihood of "stop completely or we're over" is highly unlikely.

[Tina_gm]

I think the quick answer most of us would give in the knee jerk response would be to give it up completely. I would do the same most likely.... make the decision to give up anyway. How many times have we purged and swore off the dressing?? Any time any of us do that, we are making a decision to stop entirely. But, does it hold? Sometimes but at what cost? I think most of us yes, myself included would make the decision to stop for the sake of our partners, should they throw down the gauntlet, but at what cost and what would eventually happen....

[Georgina]

Partners seem to come and go but crossdressing is for life.

[Amber83]

I believe that if your SO loves you with all their heart, your SO wouldn't give out an ultimatum. They would love you for who you are and not try to change their spouse. Everyone is entitled to be who they want to be. If my wife, whom by the way is completely accepting of my crossdressing, were to give me an ultimatum like that I would talk and try to come up with a compromise. No one can change anyone but themselves. We as human beings shouldn't have to change ourselves just to please others. This is me, either love me or don't be around me. Hope I have helped some.

[pamela7]

such an ultimatum sounds like it can only come from the SO, but i guess if the SO has genuine anguish that they cannot take the CD-ing, then you're faced with the choice of least harm. I'm so lucky that i don't face this. Now knowing myself in transition i would have to be true to myself.
In the case of an ultimatum, then call the bluff, as Nicole Scott says.

[MelanieAnne]

OK, so you give in to the ultimatum. What's the next ultimatum going to be? No more going out with the boys? No more football? No more beer?

[Rhonda Jean]

I would have loved to have been given an ultimatum! I didn't get the benefit of an ultimatum. I won't rehash. I don't think I/we fit into any of Reine's list either, unless I was in a 30+year pink fog, which is possible (and impossible for me to judge). I've been WAY around the block since my divorce and I still say I would have given it up. Whether or not I could have done so is not provable either way.

I think what's missing on Reine's list is the the SO is attracted only to masculine men. Also add that the SO is just sick of her husband constantly becoming more and more outwardly feminine (and embarrassing her in the process).

[JeanTG]

Perhaps I wouldn't love my wife as much if she gave me such ultimatums. That said, I would always choose her if confronted with difficult choices.

[AllieSF]

This like one of those fantasy questions, like what would you do if there was a pill that you could take that did .... It is also a real question. I am in the no ultimatum group, unless that ultimatum was preceded by a lot of good open, honest and deep conversation, maybe even with some third party help thrown in for good measure, like from a qualified therapist. Even then, if we went through all that good a proper foreplay before her or he coming to that decision, then to me, it is less of an ultimatum and more of an almost mutual understanding that a serious impasse had been reached.

Now to the answer to that ultimatum. We get beat around the head so much here to tell all and after reading those recommendations why would we then lie to our partner by telling them that we will "completely" give up something that for most here is truly impossible to give up? Here we are with everything at stake, the "big reveal" already revealed, honesty on the table and then we will lie to them?? If one thinks that they can stop cold turkey forever then fine maybe that reply is valid. A better reply would be "I will try but cannot guarantee the results", and then see what happens. If anything at the ultimatum point in time, we should be very careful to not deceive ourselves into believing that everything will be fine once we agree and that we can happily start living a balanced and happy life without our previous activities. Depending on how the partner found out, they may never really trust you again and may always harbor that ill feeling toward that side of you. You may never be as happy again as when you did participate in that unaccepted activity. You may be continually or periodically tempted and maybe tortured by that unrequited love. You just may suffer more and for much longer.

For me, since I know that this feminine side is a deep part of me now, I would give up that love of my life for longer term sanity and hopefully for some other future relationship where it is more accepted. I would also be showing my deep love for my to be ex-partner by giving her the freedom to go back into that wonderful and easy dating pool to find another mate more acceptable to her. It is much better for both parties to say good bye after putting that ultimatum on the table.

I like what Nicole Scott wrote above "By issuing the ultimatum, she is asking you to choose so she doesn't have to. A cop out. An attempt to transfer decision-making from her to you." Instead of giving an ultimatum and trying to unduly influence her partner's decision maybe hoping for whatever, why not just say that she cannot accept it nor live with it, and that she is ending the relationship. That is also great and needed honesty.

[Cheryl T]

The "one thing I love" is me. This is me, it's always been part of me.
Years ago I tried to comply and never dress again. It ate at me and nearly destroyed me. When I finally accepted myself and decided to come out fully to my spouse I said to her "we have a problem".
If WE couldn't work it out together, then there would be no more we because I had to be ME and stop living a lie.

It was the hardest thing I've ever done, but I was one of the lucky ones. She is fully accepting and we go everywhere together Dressed or Drab. I have the freedom to be me and I make certain it never interferes with US. Life is good with the one I love.

[Alice Torn]

I agree with Sometimes Miss, in that , as a lifetime bachelor, I have not met a single GG, who would accept me, as a dating prospect, crossdressing, , for the 11 yrs i have dressed. It would be an ultimatum with each one" stop dressing or i won't see you."

[JessiFoxx]

I couldn't agree with Stephanie47 more, well said! I was able to share Jessica with my wife for a while and it was great fun but now that we have a son (4 now) I keep my dressing in the closet and only dress when I'm away from home for work.

I for one would never give my wife an ultimatum as I know I'd have to pack my bags. So I accept that my love for my wife is too great!

[Jenniferathome]

I can't even imagine being in a relationship where an ultimatum was a possibility. Cross dressing is the least of the problems in such a relationship.

[Sometimes Steffi]

Hypothetically, if my wife gave me an ultimatum her or crossdressing, let's just say she might not get the answer she would be hoping for.

In reality, I don't really know, but leaving would be a realistic possibility.

[ReineD]

I don't think I/we fit into any of Reine's list either, unless I was in a 30+year pink fog, which is possible (and impossible for me to judge). I've been WAY around the block since my divorce and I still say I would have given it up. Whether or not I could have done so is not provable either way.

Rhonda you know I love you, right? :)

But I remember you saying several times that your wife eventually came to the realization that it was like being married to a woman, based on the way you looked and dressed, and all the stuff around the house at the time. You said that you looked around when she said that and you had to admit that she was right ... you had slowly let it all take over. I'm not saying you were at fault, just pointing out your circumstances at the time.

I agree, she should have said something to you way before. Years and years before. But would you have listened or would you have thought her unreasonable. As you say, it's not provable either way.

So I do agree with you, if there is no or little balance (by that I mean balance with the 100% male self) then it can be difficult for wives who don't sign up for this. But, I take it the OP is implying a GG who says "Stop or I'll leave" even if she is not involved with the CDing.


...........

So the bottom line is, when constructing "what if" scenarios it would be helpful to place them in context. Everyone reads their own different experience into it and so the answers may or many not at all be helpful to the OP.

[suzanne]

In my book, the Ultimatum is a sign that your feelings are not respected and so neither are you. As with any relationship between two people, a marriage is a series of compromises. It can never be 100% me, 0% you unless it's a ridiculous extreme like killing the kids (FYI I say zero). This is not killing the kids. There MUST be room for both of you to thrive. If not, be ready to say sayonara.

[Jazzy Jaz]

The recovering addict in me knows that if you asked this everyday, a CDer could never tell you with 100% certainty that tommorrow wouldn't be the day that they stick their hand back in the cookie jar.

[josrphine]

Hi xNicoles, The dredded ultimatum, My exwife after the big ' U " then divorce me. after 30 yrs which she so called put up with me. I am now married to a great women that loves me just as much as a women as a man. There is more in my mind to what she has up her dress sleeve . Have u tried the I will give up dressing if you stop wearing slacks . From now on you only wear skirts or dress's see were that goes. What i like to put in the air is you don't like me. Love let say is fleeting.. Jo

[Raychel]

I would hate to ever be out in that position, But over the last couple of weeks, I
have some time to be just Ray, not a trace of Raychel around,
I could do it, if I had to.

But I do have to admit that once that Ray time was over and Raychel was allowed to
be around again, I was MUCH happier with myself.

SO although I could and would do it if I had to, Not sure I would like it all that much.

[Rhonda Jean]

Reine,

You remember correctly. And you did have that "CDer is able to achieve balance" disclaimer in your reply.

Analogous to achieving/maintaining balance... Ever heard about boiling a frog? It's said if you put a frog in a pot of water on the stove, as the water gradually heats, the frog never realizes it's getting warmer until it's too late. I was the frog. I knew I had gone past the point of equilibrium, but I had no idea where the balance point was even if I wanted to go back. I think that 's the case with a lot of us. That's one reason I always stress open communication (which I was/am terrible at). I could not judge where I was. I honestly didn't realize how far over the line I was. I don't blame her for not keeping me in check. I think for a long time she kept quiet because she tried to convince herself that it was OK and that she wanted me to be happy. Everybody has their breaking point. Communication could have allowed us to correct before it became so dire.

I certainly see my faults more clearly now, from a distance. I shudder at a lot of what I did. Looking back I'm literally amazed at the things she tolerated. SO's should realize that silence equals approval to us. It shouldn't have to get to the ultimatum stage, or the leaving without an ultimatum stage.

[Gypsy Sam]

Always enjoy the postings of Reine D and most often marvel at the "aha" points that comprise the message. When you meet someone who knows, and know they know. That is the one to pay attention to.

[Julogden]

Ultimatums are relationship enders, and I speak from experience. If your wife gives you an ultimatum regarding your gender issues, you will resent her and the resentment will grow over time and destroy the relationship.

[SabrinaEmily]

Being who you really are, or being with someone who wants you to suppress who you really are?

No question about this one.

Pure fetishists, different story. Refusal to communicate and be honest about things, different story. Letting it get out of control to the point where it causes other problems, different story. That last one is often an aftereffect of suppression in the past, but then one needs to get whatever the problem is under control (stop spending absurd money on clothes, or whatever) and get on with life.

[MelanieAnne]

If you give in to one ultimatum, you will be giving in to ultimatums the rest of your life.

[ReineD]

I certainly see my faults more clearly now, from a distance. I shudder at a lot of what I did. Looking back I'm literally amazed at the things she tolerated. SO's should realize that silence equals approval to us. It shouldn't have to get to the ultimatum stage, or the leaving without an ultimatum stage.

I wouldn't characterize them as faults, I think you're being too hard on yourself.

Still ... the word "ultimatum" takes on different meanings under different circumstances and without any hint of what those might be in the OP, this thread is a free for all. lol

So basically, these are ultimatums:


Said to a TS: "Stop being who you are or I will leave".


Said to a CD who asks to not hide, but also is willing to not involve the SO in the CDing: "If you dress even if I"m not around, I'll leave".



These are not ultimatums:


Said to a TS or a CD who wants to dress all the time: "I respect who you are but I cannot be in a relationship with another woman".


Said to a CD who acts out: "I hate that you lie, hide stuff, won't talk to me about it, get mad at me when I ask you to dress as a guy when my parents come over, and so I've had my fill and I want nothing to do with it".

[Jazzy Jaz]

Well said ReineD! Acceptance doesn't mean participation.

[Maria 60]

A few years back on our twenty fifth wedding anniversary, we were on a vacation and I was fully dressed and we were having a drink on the balcony and overlooking the ocean. Out of nowhere she asked me what I thought would have happened if she didn't accept the dressing. I told her that I love her to death but I didn't believe we would have been celebrating our twenty fifth anniversary. She said lucky for her she accepted it, I told her, no lucky for me. I'm afraid that when I told her and if she didn't accept, I probably would have promised never to do it again and then for sure I would fail. So I guess you know my answer.

[Rhonda Jean]

With that definition, I guess what I wished I'd gotten wasn't exactly an ultimatum. You posts brings up another point. "Dress all the time". That's subject to perspective, too.

To me, I didn't dress all the time at all. To her I was a woman, and from my current perspective I see why she felt that. I believe there was a lot of space in between where I though I was and where she thought I was that we could have made it work. In a perfect world it wouldn't have come to an ultimatum or divorce. The only thing that would have gotten us there is communication, which we didn't have. There were plenty of ways we could have met half way and I would have been quite happy, and I believe she would have. With every individual thing I was doing I could have pulled back half way, but she never brought it up, probably because she thought it'd be selfish of her.

Ours was an example, I think, of two good people who let something get ridiculously out of control to the point of no return. It was unnecessary. I hate seeing that happen to anyone else. It is needless, and so intensely destructive.

Maybe ultimatum is too strong of a word. Suggestion is probably too weak. I certainly should have been advised to come to my senses about a lot of things. I think I would have listened.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Nicole:hugs:, Ultimatums are a way of trying to control someone else plane and simple. ~~...:daydreaming:...

[TrishaTX]

for years, I thought I would stop dressing which we all know is impossible. Now I am sure, I would leave. I love my wife to death, but I also understand someone has to love me. To love me is to accept me...

[Dana44]

I think if an ultimatum was giving in a relationship. it is a threat to the other. Been through that and while an ultimatum wasn't made to me. We met in a restaurant to discuss our deeply troubled marriage. My ex wife said. Well divorce me and then walked out. I looked at the waiters that were there and they heard it. I said to them. You heard that, do you all agree? They all replied yes divorce her. I guess that was a veiled ultimatum and I don't take those well at all. It is the principle of things. Filed for divorce the next morning.