Yes or no

[deebra]

I know some here will say I can't do this because I'm not a female but take a deep breath, put some panties on if this helps and do it anyway.

Put yourself in a woman or girl's position, should they be O.K. with a male crossdressing to what ever degree whether it be just panties, under dressing, androgynous, a few visible items or all out. Females do it to all degrees and it's accepted by all. Now answer the question.

[CarlaWestin]

Absolutely Yes. We all need to be admired and accepted regardless of our outward presentation.
Now, what about the clods that show up at elegant symphony events in shorts, t-shirt, sneaks and a ball cap?

[MarciManseau]

Yes, yes, yes. We deserve love and respect.

[mechamoose]

We have the right to be ourselves without feeling bad about it.

If someone else has a problem with that? Well, then THEY have a problem. Not you.

[Julia1984]

I would guess that the overwhelming answer, which I would agree with, would be a resounding YES. But your sample is probably a bit skewed and may suffer from the tiniest bit of what I think statisticians call "selection effect"!
I'd be intrigued if anyone answered NO, actually.

[Katey888]

Put yourself in a woman or girl's position, should they be O.K. with a male crossdressing to what ever degree whether it be just panties, under dressing, androgynous, a few visible items or all out.
I have a problem whenever anyone says "should"...
So NO - nobody has a right to impose their beliefs or values on anyone else - any person has an express right to like what they and dislike what they don't.. :)

And this is a flawed premise:

Females do it to all degrees and it's accepted by all. Now answer the question.
Females do not (or very rarely) do it "to all degrees" - specifically, while they may do androgynous or mixed mode, "all out" is extremely rare.
MtF CDers use wigs, forms, makeup as well as clothing. To my mind, the "all out" FtM equivalent is fake beard or stubble, a chest wig (can you get leg wigs...? :facepalm:) and 6 pairs of socks stuffed down your jeans front... (obviously that's for my endowment... ;)) - I don't believe cis-females indulge in dressing like that... :confused:

You are entitled to your view - but I feel that you could perhaps broaden it a little more... :)

Katey x

[Robin414]

Hell yes! It's 7 am here and I'm about to have a shower, put on some skinny jeans, a bra and makeup and go out (ok, boots, panties, etc...it's kinda chilly 😉 )

[Tara Rushing]

6 pairs of socks stuffed down your jeans front... (obviously that's for my endowment... ;)) -
Katey x

Just six? I'm so sorry.......

[Sara Jessica]

You are who you are. Feminine expression, whether it is what you do or ingrained in your being is what it is. Society is turning, albeit slowly. Many women out there are cool with it.

Until it lands in their backyard by way of their own SO being TG/CD.

That too is what it is.

It is too much to expect that any of our SO's should feel obligated to undo a lifetime of socialization and their own biological attractions to align with this thing of ours. Some will, many won't. Some can't. All we can do is live our lives and be visible in the ways that work for our own situations in hopes of contributing to a sea change that is not likely to be very fast at all.

[Krisi]

We can't put ourselves in the position of a woman because we are not women and have never been women. The closest we can come to answering your question is to ask ourselves if we would be OK with our wives or girlfriends or just any woman on the street trying to dress as and look like a man. Would you be OK with your wife in a crew cut, fake beard and wearing a prosthetic penis?

As for your last sentence, women wearing jeans or tee shirts are not crossdressing.

[Sara Jessica]

Actually Krisi, we can put ourselves in the position of a woman through something called empathy.

[Nadine Robles]

It would be absolutely OK to me, in fact I would prefer everyone to be open about it rather than in the closet.

[Beverley Sims]

Put yourself in a woman or girl's position, should they be O.K. with a male crossdressing?

No they don't have to be.....

I am not comfortable with a man with a beard wearing a dress.

So, I do not think anyone should be obliged to have some other belief forced upon them.

For example, I don't mind gay people as long as they don't want to pat me on the bum all the time....

[Krisi]

Actually Krisi, we can put ourselves in the position of a woman through something called empathy.

Not really. We haven't spent our lifetimes as females. We might think we can put ourselves in the position of a female but in reality, we cannot.

[JeanTG]

We can't put ourselves in the position of a woman because we are not women and have never been women.

This exactly it. Women are different, and their perspective of putting on men's or men-like clothing is different from ours of dressing as a woman. It does nothing to change their identity. Most just do it for comfort and convenience. We on the other hand get some kind of kick out of it. Not necessarily a sexual kick, but a form of excitement nonetheless. It could be sexual excitement, or simply the excitement of finally being able to let loose a part of our identity that we have to keep repressed most of the time. Whatever our reasons it does not have the same connotation that wearing masculine clothing has for women.

The fact is that most women dressing in masculine clothing aren't trying to present as men at all. Most of us on the other hand, like to wear feminine clothing to present as women.

[IamWren]

Just six? I'm so sorry.......

hee hee :heehee:

[Jenniferathome]

...Females do it to all degrees and it's accepted by all...

Firstly, this statement is utterly false. Unless you want to call pants exclusive domain for men which has not been the case for a century. Even then, compared to the male equivalent, they are completely different.

Secondly, cross dressers SHOULD be more objective about what they are bringing to relationship.

Thirdly and lastly, I believe that women, in general, ARE ok with cross dressing. Has has been supported here many, many times by the women of this board, it is the lack of honesty that causes the grief, not the cross dressing itself.

[TrishaTX]

I believe everyone has something and this isn't the worst thing....

[JeanTG]

...it is the lack of honesty that causes the grief, not the cross dressing itself.

Sometimes it is the cross dressing itself. I told my wife before we were married that I had this tendency. She has never liked it, and likely never will, it's a major turn-off for her to even think of her man in women's clothes. Her support limits itself to DADT, which is tolerance, not support. And I can wear panties at will, but she'd never go out and surprise me with a new pair or two on my birthday or Valentine's day. That's as far as it goes.

It's one subject that I don't think is possible to generalize about, but I've been hanging out on other boards as well and it seems to me that the number of women that go past mere tolerance and actually embrace their SO's dressing is a fairly small proportion of spouses, and there has been more than one divorce over the issue. I myself came very close to divorce on the issue.

[Julia1984]

Hmm. The OP question was "should they be ok with it?". That doesn't beg any questions about the nature of FTM "crossdressing". (I love the idea of leg wigs Katey!).

What it does touch on is the nature of (small L) liberalism. To what extent should a liberal tolerate intolerance or illiberality. That a biggie and cuts across a while host of issues, many of them arguably much more important than whether a guy wants to wear a dress.

[mykell]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by deebra http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3896254#post3896254)
...Females do it to all degrees and it's accepted by all...




Firstly, this statement is utterly false. Unless you want to call pants exclusive domain for men which has not been the case for a century. Even then, compared to the male equivalent, they are completely different.

Secondly, cross dressers SHOULD be more objective about what they are bringing to relationship.

Thirdly and lastly, I believe that women, in general, ARE ok with cross dressing. Has has been supported here many, many times by the women of this board, it is the lack of honesty that causes the grief, not the cross dressing itself.

hey jen, your first point....women have and do wear male clothes, some have even been adapted like you said, boy shorts for example, boy friend jeans another, so while womens clothes assimilated mens clothes if they were to simply put on our clothes and run down to the quickie mart for a squishy no one would most likely care or notice, if we in the same instance grabbed a flowered jean that fit and a blouse and feminine boot say, its noticed and remarked about.....

second, everyone should be objective to what they bring to a relationship regardless of how they dress....

third, the support and acceptance of the GGs here will always be balanced out by women on other forums and possibly some here, in those they will denigrate and disparage theyre mates for crossdressing, so in general their is a lot of things that have to align and happen for a women to accept us and yes honesty is a valuable part of that...

but to answer deebras guestion in the context that we just grabbed some clothes to get a squishy from the quicky mart like i pointed out above, yes their is a double standard in society with that, as far as forms wigs the whole nine yards, like someone said dont want a chest wig on my girl, and a silicone dong would freak me out, one sock or more to, so just strike it up to me being a hypocrite, i like my girl girlie, so you cant make someone like it..... its just still weird to some....

that would be a no from me deebra....

[Tracii G]

Not this argument again.............................................

[Kimberley May]

To my mind, the "all out" FtM equivalent is fake beard or stubble, a chest wig (can you get leg wigs...? :facepalm:) and 6 pairs of socks stuffed down your jeans front.
TBH that's a good point which in my own ignorance hadn't thought about. In this extreme reversed example, while I am comfortable with my SO wearing mens clothes (as she does), I would be very put off with the idea of her stuffing socks down her jeans to emulate the male bits, and wearing a chest wig and false tasche and beard etc. So I can more easily equally imagine now how awkward it would feel for most women being asked to accept their SO wearing breast forms. I am guessing though that on percentage (not necessarily the main majority of women), far more women than men would still be accepting with their SO, at least bregrudgingly anyway. It does sound selfish, but I guess I can't help how I feel just as much as anyone :thinking:

[Jenny22]

My answer is NO. Women come from varied cultures and backgrounds. Even those who are liberal could not be expected to universally men who wear women's clothing, Period! Bless those who do accept us. They are in the minority, fer sure.

[Erin Lafleur]

I don't think it's any business of theirs what I do, much as it's none of my business what they think...

[Dana44]

Tara, great answer, almost fell off my chair laughing. But this has been discussed so many times. Would we want to be desired. Yes

[Alexann]

It would be nice if they all were ok with crossdressing and it's a good thing they have a Choice

[Lorileah]

this ain't gonna last long I can tell. This comes up all the time "They can I can't":cry:

Let's keep this on the rails

[Sky]

Yes.
And no.
And maybe.
Some are very open minded and accept lots of things.
Some are very close minded and can't accept anything different from what they know.
And some are somewhere in between.
They are all human beings entitled to their own tastes and opinions, as long as they don's use violence. I have no problem whatsoever with horrified people saying "Crossdressing? Eek!"

[ReineD]

Put yourself in a woman or girl's position, should they be O.K. with a male crossdressing to what ever degree whether it be just panties, under dressing, androgynous, a few visible items or all out.

Is this a false premise? The question might be, "Should GGs be O.K. with a partner who goes beyond what society deems acceptable or ordinary and as such risks being judged negatively by others and risks being ostracized." Think of any behavior or form of presentation other than CDing that people might think weird, and spouses will have the same reaction as they do to the CDing.

Deebra, even though SAs and fellow female shoppers might be cordial to you, it doesn't mean you'd be invited to hang out with them, their families and kids (while dressed), go to their block parties, be invited to their work holiday parties, asked to serve in a public capacity or chair a charitable organization, etc.

That said, I think the less that shows, the easiest it is for a spouse. So a husband just wearing panties (at one extreme) I think is accepted by more spouses than a husband who wants to come out to everyone they know (at the other extreme). Spouses tend to be more OK with their husbands dressing in private than in public. And if they do go out in public, more spouses are OK with dressing far away from home than in their own neighborhoods. I dare say that most CDers feel the same way.




Females do it to all degrees and it's accepted by all. Now answer the question.

I have never run across a woman who wears men's underwear unless he is FtM transitioning. And women buy their pants in women's stores, in women's sizes, in women's cuts, and so they are not crossdressing.

[AnnieMac]

Let's all join hands here now and everybody sing! "We are the world, we are the children. . . .

[Julia1984]

Like it or not, there is an asymmetry. For cis men, clothing is gender related. For cis women it isn't. Isn't it as simple as that?

[ReineD]

Let's all join hands here now and everybody sing! "We are the world, we are the children. . . .

I agree, it would be nice if everyone in this world accepted men who want to present as women.

It would also be nice if there was no more greed, racial and religious intolerance, economic disparity, subjugation of women and mistreatment of children in some countries, and wars. I struggle sometimes with coming to terms with all the horrible things in our world. My SO said it best, we can only do what we can and let go of the rest.

[KrissyP]

No. We struggle too much with the "why" and self acceptance ourselves to presume that women must accept us unconditionally. Agree with the comments about the false assumption that women wearing pants and shirts is the same as our CDing.


Is this a false premise? The question might be, "Should GGs be O.K. with a partner who goes beyond what society deems acceptable or ordinary and as such risks being judged negatively by others and risks being ostracized." Think of any behavior or form of presentation other than CDing that people might think weird, and spouses will have the same reaction as they do to the CDing.

To Reine's point earlier I am reminded of the movie, "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner?" We all have our definition of what is "ordinary" and things and people and situations outside of that are challenging. And that is OK if we allow ourselves to think about why we are that way.

It always amazes me as well how harsh and judgmental we can be towards people we consider harsh and judgmental.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I spent (or wasted) 40 years to accept myself.

If my wife's acceptance progresses at that same rate, I only have 31 more years to wait.

But, I do hope by then that she recognizes that she wasted 40 years.

[Sara Jessica]

Not really. We haven't spent our lifetimes as females. We might think we can put ourselves in the position of a female but in reality, we cannot.

Empathy doesn't require that you have walked a mile in the shoes of those you empathize with. It is simply the capacity of being able to understand or identify with the POV or experiences of others. I don't have to have been homeless to empathize with their plight. Same goes for women in this example. I can only imagine the hurt and pain we put our SO's through by virtue of who we are and/or what we do. For better or worse, right or wrong, it simply doesn't mesh with most women's world view.

It seems that it is a lack of empathy which fuels these "again" threads.

Many have expressed that they'd have issues with their woman putting the guy (with all of the trappings), let alone going out & about with "him" while he feeds his need for power tools, then coming home to have sex with him. Yet many here have that same expectation or dream that their SO find it in them to accept this part of us, to participate and even make it part of the sexual relationship. After all, "I'm the same person you married underneath..." There are a lot of leaps of faith to be taken by our SO's in this common scenario which are often exceeded by the liberties taken on our parts.


And women buy their pants in women's stores, in women's sizes, in women's cuts, and so they are not crossdressing.

So true but why does this have to be said over and over and over and over again?

Anyone who truly feels that women's pants are part of their accepted crossdressing movement should be sentenced to ditching all of their male pants and buying 10 pair from the women's section in a variety of styles to wear in guy mode. After all, they're the same thing, right??? :eek:

[Julia Welch]

We are all individuals and as such we are all different ... we ALL have a choice !!