Why is having a label so important to you?

[sarahcsc]

There has been countless threads debating the meaning/definition of terms including "crossdresser", "transgender", "transsexual", "woman", "man", etc.

After awhile, the debates become somewhat predictable. Those who don't know could look up the forum although there's much to wade through. Basically, most people would either agree to disagree or the moderator shuts down the thread.

But I was wondering, just purely out of curiosity, why is a label so important to you?

I want to know what motivates a person to seek a label. What are the feelings associated with being labelled? What is there to gain? What is the alternative to labelling?

I am not judging anybody and not ashamed to admit that I am not a fan of labelling. I have my reasons. But I'm very curious to know the other side of the story.

WARNING: In reality, labelling to some extent is inevitable so please don't start by saying "I don't label myself and I don't believe in labelling". In which case, you belong to the intellectual group and you can start a thread independent of this.

WARNING: I do not wish to start yet another intellectual debate about the pros and cons of labelling, so please avoid discussing reasons why you think labelling should or should not happen.

HINT: Be as broad and expansive as you can. There are after all, so many labels in this world which can be be exemplified.

I would love to hear everybody's opinion on this.

Love,
S

[mykell]

<form>
<label for="male">Male</label>
<input type="radio" name="gender" id="male" value="male"><br>
<label for="female">Female</label>
<input type="radio" name="gender" id="female" value="female"><br>
<label for="other">Other</label>
<input type="radio" name="gender" id="other" value="other"><br><br>
<input type="submit" value="Submit">
</form>

normally we dont get to chose "other" when asked about gender, the other label describes "me"
all of the threads you mention do become predictable as do many other topics, most responses are made with nothing but conjecture or supposition.....
the results speak for themselves.....


ill also second what katey said....except that toe thingy, i dont even know what that means....

[Katey888]

Interesting point Sarah (but lots of warnings... :eek:) - let's see if I can answer without treading on a toe-popper...

A label for me is really about a category of people or a grouping - and therefore it's not an end in itself; it's like a road sign for kindred spirits - it's something that just allows you to feel or affirms that you are, part of a bigger commonality...

It allows you to feel that you are not alone with what you experience individually - particularly if that's a burden or a fear, and particularly for folk that come across us for the first time and can finally feel that they have someone to share it with... Knowing that you can share it with someone who understands because they feel the same way; have the same motivations; experience the same needs and pressures - is a lot less scary than sharing it with someone who may be hostile, or may even tell you that you're not what you feel you are...

The label itself is not important to me - the idea that I can share my feelings with people that are more likely to understand and that there are more people like me, is reassuring... It probably makes me a little tribal, but that's not unusual for humans... :)

Katey x

[AllieSF]

I like labels because they gives me a starting point when trying to understand where someone is coming from when in discussion oral or written. I am also not ashamed by labels even if mislabeled. A simple, "No, I am not" easily clears up that erroneous assumption. I think that may be a sign of some latent homophobia, as in, they would think that someone may think lesser of them and by extension gays are lesser people on the totem pole. On a site like this it helps to have some common base definitions and labels so that people can hopefully keep a specific topic going and not get sidelined and then closed over label wars. I generally add a brief description of one of the most contentious labels (TG) as being the umbrella term. When I am talking to complete strangers who are trying to understand what I and others like me are, I may use TG only because I believe that being the umbrella term and sounding better and a bit more professional/adult that using crossdresser. If necessary for clarity, I may add that I do "this" part time versus someone full time who usually is TS. Since we continually argue over terminology here, how can we ever expect the less in tune general public to ever really understand if everyone uses something different for basically the same thing. Also, sometimes the added detail of whether someone is a "tweener or not might be easily described as beyond a CD and not quite a TS, or as some of my friends describe me, CD+++!!

[Julogden]

Labels can be an aid to communication if they are accurate, but the flip side is true in that if they are misapplied, they can lead to confusion and misinformation. That said, I agree with what AllieSF said about labels.

[lemon_meringue_tie]

I label myself because I want people to know certain basic things about who I am without having to spell them out, or have them find out in some roundabout way. It also gets across the point that I know what I'm doing, and I am proud of what I do. Whether someone agrees with my label, or not. I'm letting them know what I think. I believe in an individual's right to define themselves, rather than granting that power to, well, people who aren't you. That seems silly.

[docrobbysherry]

I think I like wearing women's things. But then, maybe I don't. I'm not sure why I even think about that? Oh never mind!

I've been considering having sex with other people. Should I try it with men or women first? I guess that's not really important, tho.

So, what should I do about everything?

(Labels r simply part of communication.)

[bridget thronton]

Labeling is not important to me - I am happy to identify as trans or gender fluid because it binds me to a larger community of like individuals with the support that implies

[Teresa]

Sarah,
I think labels are important if you want to make some sense of the TG spectrum and where you are on it, it also then helps to explain it to other people.

To finally come out to your partner is scary enough for both of you but without an explanation and sensible labels it's much harder to move on. Just shrugging your shoulders and saying I don't understand isn't fair to your partner. This also applies to other people, recent posts have touched on the subject of talking to coworkers or friends, you can't do that unless you have a label to describe yourself , otherwise what is the point.

Lemon M.,
You raise a good point, if you don't label yourself, other people may do it for you and get it completely wrong.

I think it does matter because there is still a great deal of misunderstanding of the whole CDing scene we will constantly need to correct that if we are to be accepted as more than guys wearing a badly fitting dress with appalling makeup and staggering about in heels !

[Sin]

I don't know how important it is to me.
Sometimes I feel like its not important and sometimes it feels like very important.
I label myself as a bi'Queen.
I often feel myself so strongly as a woman that I don't even want to be called anything man(whatever).
Many and most day's now (living in rough community) I hide my female side and like my male side mostly to show.
It is not entirely hidden and most know, but very few are open for this here and (fist/law) is very often on top of anything sensible despite efforts of local law's to not make it so.
I like to be able to be man sometimes and a woman sometimes.
My bisexuality make me treat women as I like men to treat me. (I don't know if it makes sense).
I also love being dressed as a man at a party with my dress and accessories in a bag, then go to the bathroom and make a transformation to make a new entrance as "me" who they just didn't notice before.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

i-sometimes-like-to-dress-up-in-ladies-clothing-but-mostly-wear-drab-because-i-fear-public-humiliation dot com isn't a very snappy domain name. People like short succinct handles on things. Except bureaucrats- they like long, polysyllabic names for things because they think it makes them sound clever.

Of course inevitably some bureaucrats are LGBT, hence the proliferation of lengthy acronyms and ever more specific labels for all possible permutations of gender expression everywhere, or APPOGEE.

[Jane G]

Labels are just tools we use when we communicate. Personalty I think they work best for things that don't change much, like a Heinz 57 baked beans recipe. I change a little bit every second of my life.

[sarahcsc]

Interesting point Sarah (but lots of warnings... :eek:) - let's see if I can answer without treading on a toe-popper...

It allows you to feel that you are not alone with what you experience individually - particularly if that's a burden or a fear, and particularly for folk that come across us for the first time and can finally feel that they have someone to share it with...

Sorry about the many warnings, Katey. In essence, I'm trying to moderate the thread right from the beginning by making the thread as focussed as possible. It doesn't always work but one can try.

I agree with you that labelling can help ease the loneliness especially if being labelled translates into a sense of belonging to a group.

While this is the case for some, it is also interesting to observe others who are abhorrent of being labelled because they don't feel represented by the group they supposedly belong to. Perhaps they don't hate "labelling" in itself, but they just don't wish to be labelled with the labels we have at present. I'm reminded of people who don't align themselves with any political party or ideologies because of the same reason.

A "perfect" representation is probably a fantasy and most people would be satisfied with a "good enough" representation. Maybe the fact that some people are so particular about their label probably reflects how much they cherish their sense of identity. For example, Zooey said "Since going full-time, it hurts more when people misgender me; not because I'm more sensitive, but because I finally have an identity I care about."

To me, this is a very moving and logical statement, but at the same time, it leads me to wonder why or if some one would care less.

lemon_meringue_tie said "I believe in an individual's right to define themselves, rather than granting that power to, well, people who aren't you. That seems silly." while Donna Indelco said "A label isn't important to me. I am who I am and let others categorize me if they feel the need to." Very contrasting statements in this thread itself.

I wonder if it has something to do with how secure one feels about their own sense of identity. It stands to reason that one would be defensive if they felt threatened by a label. Therefore, one would care less about being misrepresented if they are secure enough in themselves. Right?

Well... not really. I don't know because this usually leads to a discussion about the difference between TS and CDs, whereby the former somehow "cares a great deal more about their gender identity" compared to the latter group. Is this a brain peculiarity perhaps? Or a strange psychological disposition? The reasons are varied and nobody knows for sure.

It is fascinating to note that crossdressers are not usually up in arms if they are mislabeled "woman" or "trans".

What are your thoughts?


I like labels because they gives me a starting point when trying to understand where someone is coming from when in discussion oral or written... On a site like this it helps to have some common base definitions and labels so that people can hopefully keep a specific topic going and not get sidelined and then closed over label wars.

Allie made another valid point about labels, in that it helps reduce confusion and organize the forum. This leads me to ask two questions, "what is wrong with being confused?" and "are we any less confused now with all these terms and labels?"

One could argue that too much confusion leads to anxiety and distress, but we also need to consider the harm of offering "quick answers". A good therapist would contain a patient's confusion and anxiety while at the same time helping them explore their own gender identity in a graduated and unbiased fashion. The cure to confusion and anxiety is not to offer up quick answers, but to normalise the situation so they don't feel at sea.

I dare to say that we are all at sea when it comes to gender identity, but some are happily rolling with the confusion while others are panicking. Curious isn't it?

I also noticed a trend with people who are initially accepting of a label, only to reject it later upon further self-discovery. Sooner of later, the confusion returns. In which case, some adopt a new label, but others decide to create their own label for themselves. I identify with the latter group. Mickitv said "Not to sound like Popeye but "I am what I am.""

Are we any less confused? Yes, at least for a while.

What are your thoughts?





Sarah,
I think labels are important if you want to make some sense of the TG spectrum and where you are on it, it also then helps to explain it to other people.

To finally come out to your partner is scary enough for both of you but without an explanation and sensible labels it's much harder to move on. Just shrugging your shoulders and saying I don't understand isn't fair to your partner. This also applies to other people, recent posts have touched on the subject of talking to coworkers or friends, you can't do that unless you have a label to describe yourself , otherwise what is the point.

Another great point raised by Teresa, that labels are important in communicating to others. I totally agree with you on this. However, I can think of two more questions, that is "why is it unfair to tell your partner that you don't understand?", and "is understanding more important than acceptance?"

We often feel the need to "do or say something" when confronting our partners but most people fudge it, at least, the first several times. The fact that there is a whole FAQ section in this forum dedicated to people who wants to come out to their partners shows how commonly difficult this process could be. Unless you know for a fact that your gender identity is stable, you can justify the use of a label (eg. I am a man/woman). But how could you justify the use of labels (which are arbitrary to begin with) to describe your gender identity which is still subject to change upon further exploration.

You may tell your partner you are a "man" today, and a "crossdresser" tomorrow, and a "transgender" next week, and a "transsexual" next month, and a "woman" next year. Is this fairer than just saying "Sorry honey, I can't be sure of who I am today nor tomorrow. All I can say is that I love you and I wish to have you with me on this journey of self-discovery"?

Don't we, at least, owe our partners the truth so they could decide for themselves?

Understandably, your partner would be anxious when faced with so many uncertainties, in which case, I think it is more important that we do not perpetuate that anxiety by giving them false or incomplete explanations. Some couples agree that things get better with time after an initial crisis, and these are generally couples who are utterly honest with each other right from the start. However, some couples just become increasingly paranoid and divided over time. Curious isn't it?

Also, while it is important we help our partners understand, I think we often overestimate the effect understanding has on acceptance.

In my experience, understanding is not synonymous with acceptance.

For example, I don't understand Einstein's theory of relativity, but I accept that gravity is keeping my feet on the ground. Similarly, I can understand why a sex offender would commit rape due to his traumatic upbringing but I cannot accept his actions.

Knowing this, I don't bother myself too much with other's understanding on this matter because I know acceptance takes time and it will happen if it is meant to happen, regardless of their understanding.

In worse cases, there could be a paradoxical increase in confusion the more one tries to understand something as complexed as gender identity.

What are your thoughts?

[Katey888]

Oh Gawd! :eek: Three more deep and penetrating questions Sarah... and only on my first coffee on a Saturday.... ;)

Actually - I admit to pondering your question having a leisurely shower, slathered in soap lather this morning... :battingeyelashes: (yes, that was gratuitous for all our gay and bi members... :lol:)

Allie makes a good point about it being a starting point, not just for us but potentially others - I think this is important too, and why an umbrella term is useful to provide a more cumulative grouping for the benefit of educating others. You make a good point about feeling secure in one's own identity - I don't spend all day thinking I'm TG - no more than I keep refreshing that I'm a woodworker, or an MBA or a yachtmaster or whatever... but in a relevant situation, when I'm out dressed, if someone asks it gives me a reference point, but if they mislabelled me as TS, like Allie, I'd just have to modify that to part-time. Perhaps the one benefit of being part-time is that we aren't overly sensitive about the mislabelling because - like even a broken clock is accurate twice a day - the label is likely to be close enough. :)

For the muggles, it's the broad groupings that will help education and promote understanding - your assertion that understanding does not always equate to acceptance is true, but I think it does promote tolerance and I think that just having universal tolerance would be a great step forward for many of us.

Going back to the shower moment (cue Serge Gainsbourg & Jane Birkin's "Je t'aime"... ;)) what I find curious is how often folk here insist on asserting what they're not, as if by association with those of us that feel that we are, some of our individual aspects might be contagious... and I mean when they're not even asked or identified - as if there's a defensiveness or an insecurity about their own feelings. I've said before that other people, agencies, organisations etc. will ultimately label us objectively regardless of our own subjective preferences - we might as well "own it" first then at least we have a chance of directing the understanding...

Time for that second coffee now...

Katey x

[heatherdress]

Sarah - Your topic offers an interesting discussion. My simple response to your question is that labels are not important to me. I also dislike being labeled by others and then told I need to respond a certain way because of the label, which occurs frequently in threads.


I do understand that psychological labeling is a common tool to describe, study and understand human behavior.

http://counsellingresource.com/features/2011/03/16/psychological-labels-read-carefully-before-applying/

Many members of our forum continually share their personal experiences and opinions and use their understanding of labels to try to explain or identify behavior. Sometimes the use of labels seems accurate and appropriate, sometimes not. Labels certainly have much greater importance to some than to others, probably due to personalities, needs, maturity, knowledge and awareness.

[Sara Jessica]

Labeling myself accurately is a sign that I truly understand who I am. Because this label doesn't appear on a name tag or in some other outward manner, I am able to use it to accurately describe myself to others who might care to know more about me than my outward appearance conveys.

[Krisi]

For one thing, a label lets you know which section of this forum you belong in.

I label myself (straight MTF Crossdresser) because that helps others on the forum understand where I'm coming from when I post.

[becky77]

I don't see it as a label more a description, and we need descriptions for language.
I don't go around telling people I am TS or even a woman, I just am.
But here I might say it to instantly explain an idea of where I'm coming from in the conversation.



Well... not really. I don't know because this usually leads to a discussion about the difference between TS and CDs, whereby the former somehow "cares a great deal more about their gender identity" compared to the latter group. Is this a brain peculiarity perhaps? Or a strange psychological disposition? The reasons are varied and nobody knows for sure.

It is fascinating to note that crossdressers are not usually up in arms if they are mislabeled "woman" or "trans".


The inbetweeners are the most under represented and not easily defined, if you are relatively fluid in nature then a static label is no use.

The cross dresser typically has no identity issues so they don't really need to look too deep into any if this, they do what they do and don't really have to apologize for it.

However a TS transitioner has usually gone through hell and fire to reveal to the world their identity, when you have risked so much who wouldn't be protective of their hard fought status?
We have TS on here that have come out, spent most of their money, lost homes, lost family, lost jobs, been through painful operations some that have gone wrong.
All to be authentic.
Do you think if after all that it's not surprising if they are a little prickly to be then labeled as a man in a dress? I think saying brain peculiarly is a bit unfair of you.

Most often those that have an issue with labels do seem to be the same people that are unsure of where they fit, is it a fear of misrepresentation or more like they just can't define themselves so why should anyone else try to stick them in a category?

I hate the label TS, I'm certainly not brandishing it about however it is a medical description of what I'm about. Without that label/description I would struggle to get the appropriate treatment.
It is what it is but being TS doesn't define me as a person but it does easily convey part of what makes me tick.

Most of these labels are inadequate and too vague.

I do disagree that CDers are less bothered, I've seen a lot of discussions here where CDers are very vocal about distancing themselves from TS or even the TG label because they don't want to be connected to the likes of Caitlyn, they don't want wives to worry if they will transition.
So for them saying they are Just a Crossdresser establishes a much needed different stand point.
Is there anything wrong with that?

[adrienner99]

Labeling is just one step toward understanding our own identity. For me, and I think for most of us, crossdressing creates confusion. I know I am male, but some part of me loves female clothes and characteristics. How can that be? Most men do not even get near this conundrum. Why us? And where are we on that thing known as the TS (or TV) Spectrum? How "female" are we????....It's just part of the search to answer The Big Why---why on earth do men want to wear women's clothes, and in some cases actually become women through SRS????

[Lacy PJs]

The whole business of labels doesn't come from how we label ourselves but how others label us. I know that some will say, "Let others think as they may...." and this may go so far. But as still others have said, the idea of a label is a starting point and hopefully not the end of the discussion. It is what others think of the labels that are given that kind of makes it important to "get it right."

Most labels are relative and not absolute. I am tall... but compared to someone who is 6'8", I am not so tall. But initially, it gives people the idea that I am at a certain height range. It's the same with the labels used to describe/categorize crossdressers. To say that one is a fulltime crossdresser (MtoF here) would give one the general impression that they won't find that person in a three-piece business suit typically worn by businessmen. But that same label doesn't fully define someone either; it doesn't tell if they are female impersonators, have gone through transition, etc.

So it is important to know what the label's meaning & understanding is so that one can move forward from that point in defining oneself to another.

Lacy PJs

[Nicole Erin]

People that want specific labels are just trying to sub-divide communities.
Everybody wants to be unique, it is the middle school mentality.

In the real world, no one cares what specific label someone wants to go by.

[Katey888]

Just a reminder of the OP's question and subsequent criteria for contributing to this thread:

QUESTIONS:

why is a label so important to you?
I want to know what motivates a person to seek a label. What are the feelings associated with being labelled? What is there to gain? What is the alternative to labelling?
The OP has made it clear she is not a supporter of labelling and doesn't seek additional negative reasons - her further criteria stresses this:

WARNING: In reality, labelling to some extent is inevitable so please don't start by saying "I don't label myself and I don't believe in labelling". In which case, you belong to the intellectual group and you can start a thread independent of this.

WARNING: I do not wish to start yet another intellectual debate about the pros and cons of labelling, so please avoid discussing reasons why you think labelling should or should not happen.

This was quite clear - I'm stressing it again and now culling negative comments so that everyone can just see the positive ones so that we can keep the thread open... Subsequent posters, PLEASE try to grasp this... :facepalm:

Katey
Moderator

[mykell]

sorry sarah i needed 3 cups of coffee, eggs on a rack, and lunch to tackle your added thoughts.....

i still find my original post with the radio button example my most wanted choice, "other" would make it so much easier.....



It is fascinating to note that crossdressers are not usually up in arms if they are mislabeled "woman" or "trans".

What are your thoughts?

my thoughts on this is that some here fear guilt by association, many here fear the "trans" part of the community, others fear the "fetish" part of the community, while others fear the "bi" or "homo" aspect of the community, hence all the categorized familiar threads:
“crossdressers who arent gay if you want a man while dressed”, “crossdressers that just like the clothes that like themselves”, “crossdressers that are just a regular crossdresser”, "crossdressers who dont have a clue how to crossdress", "crossdressers that hate caitlyn jenner", "crossdressers that hate transgender", and my made up one "crossdressers that are too crossdressy", so sub labels of crossdressing...
these end by becoming too personal and most times off topic in dissected debates. most times disregarding the original question…just happened here today and you were quite specific about what you were looking for and articulate it in a concise manner….

I also noticed a trend with people who are initially accepting of a label, only to reject it later upon further self-discovery. Sooner of later, the confusion returns. In which case, some adopt a new label, but others decide to create their own label for themselves. I identify with the latter group. Mickitv said "Not to sound like Popeye but "I am what I am.""

Are we any less confused? Yes, at least for a while.

What are your thoughts?

when i first came here i found some terms confusing, as i read and learned more i found i can fit into other terms as well, what i do have trouble with is comments made that may be factual for some made to be the rule and not the exception, made me feel in denial about some aspects of myself when i had initially felt good about that particular place i felt i was in....

The fact that there is a whole FAQ section in this forum dedicated to people who wants to come out to their partners shows how commonly difficult this process could be.

this was the hardest decision that i could ever make, fearing rejection from the person you care the most for in your life....being mocked and ridiculed by your peers and then labeled , liar, coward, ect. if you don't do it….not the labels or support I sought….

You may tell your partner you are a "man" today, and a "crossdresser" tomorrow, and a "transgender" next week, and a "transsexual" next month, and a "woman" next year. Is this fairer than just saying "Sorry honey, I can't be sure of who I am today nor tomorrow. All I can say is that I love you and I wish to have you with me on this journey of self-discovery"?

our most heartfelt discussion to date was this very topic, and the use of labels as a "tool" like some one said made it easier to ease her fear of where this will go and my honesty of saying i cant promise anything and reassure her of where i thought it was for the now, that and how i will always love her and never meant her any of the turmoil associated with who i was and the journey….have seen many here proclaim one thing two short years ago and they hang in different forum now so how honest were they with they're wife's in reality....not criticizing that just saying you never know how deep the hole goes, theirs that rabbit again....


ive noticed that some of the words you used here today were dissected, apparently they were insulting to someone and not your intention im sure, i find it extremely hard to compose my thoughts when i post or start a thread, the fear of inadvertently insulting or confusing what im trying to convey.....sometimes i will leave the page and hit the back button.....

[Pat]

Oh boy, a chance to be pedantic again... :)

Words are important because without them we can't discuss anything. You can't talk about rocks if there's no word for rock.

The Williams Institute had a cute line in their report that was trying to assess how many TG people there are. It read, "It has been said that a minority doesn't count until it has been counted." To be counted we must have a word for the thing we're counting so we can differentiate it from all the other things in the world.

I don't like casting the discussion in terms of "labels" because when you do that, you're imposing a specific use model on a word. Transgender, for example, should just be an adjective. It *can* be used as a label, but that is not its only function. But when labels are being used as labels, there needs to be an appropriate label for everyone in the target audience. The practical issue (again, only speaking for myself) is that when I'm filling out a form -- as mentioned above -- and they give me two radio buttons, one Male, one Female and one or the other MUST be checked I feel a huge amount of discomfort. If I could choose "other" or if I could just not choose I'd feel fine. I also run into this a lot in cases where a form demands I select a "title" or "salutation" from a list of Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms or Dr. I'm none of those things but the form requires me to choose one. In this case people actually are using these words as labels and my discomfort comes from their implied requirement that I participate in their world view just so I can renew my driver's license or some other simple human transaction.

So that's why and when "labels" are important to me.

[Zooey]

A "perfect" representation is probably a fantasy and most people would be satisfied with a "good enough" representation. Maybe the fact that some people are so particular about their label probably reflects how much they cherish their sense of identity. For example, Zooey said "Since going full-time, it hurts more when people misgender me; not because I'm more sensitive, but because I finally have an identity I care about."

To me, this is a very moving and logical statement, but at the same time, it leads me to wonder why or if some one would care less.

Since I'm the one that said it... I was never invested in my male persona. Before I accepted myself for who/what I was, I literally could not have cared less what people thought of me. Some people would say that was "cool", but "cool" had nothing to do with it. I didn't care about what they thought because I didn't really care about that persona. I didn't take care of myself. I didn't put any effort into anything but work and trying to be funny so I didn't have to talk about anything really important.

I care about my identity now because the one I'm showing the world is the real one - not the woefully deficient and wafer-thin shell I'd been parading around for decades. When people disrespected me before, or tried to hurt me, it rarely hurt me - it just hit the shell. I'm on the surface now, and it hurts.


It is fascinating to note that crossdressers are not usually up in arms if they are mislabeled "woman" or "trans".

This fascinates me too.

From what i've seen, crossdressers LOVE it when they're labeled women in public. I've read plenty of posts here from folks who claim to identify as in-between/non-binary who seem to love it too. To me, if your identity is really such a distinctly different thing, I don't see why somebody in public mislabeling you a "woman" should be any less infuriating than being labeled a "man" or "TS" or anything else that's inaccurate. My bi friends bristle equally at being called straight or gay - they don't say "well, sometimes I'm straight and sometimes I'm gay". They say, "Actually, I'm bi."

I'm not trying to be difficult, and I respect what you folks tell me, but I guess I really don't get it.

[Julia Welch]

It isn't ... never has been

[HollyGreene]

I call myself a transvestite because when I started, the term cross-dresser was really unheard of. But to be honest, I don't use it as a label and really don't care about it. I have no need or desire to label myself because I don't seek approval for what I do, or confirmation that it's ok to do it. I'm happy being who and what I am, so why would I need a label?
In my experience, it's generally people who are not TV/CD who don't understand it, or people who are TV/CD but are confused by what they are doing who who need to label us/themselves.

[TaraGrace]

hi Sarah,

For me personally it is frustrating that lables never fit me.

From nationality (parents from 2 seperate countries, living in a 3rd country), to cloths (always stuck between 2 sizes), to customer type (fitting multiple profiles depending on variables), to sales character (even had a highly experience sales trainer tell me he never in his life met someone switches roles so rapidly), to sexuality (fluent in various ways), to.. and so on and so on..

After a while it even became literally rediculous: I even had a large dog that thought he was a cat, and 1 (of 3) cats that randomly acted like a dog and even mimicked barking somehow.. had I been starving for attention it would have done well on youtube :(

Generally speaking I like lables, they simplify life.. and perhaps that is why it annoys me I do not fit in a generalised lable, for it always means having to explain, use examples, and still will lead to confusion and incorrect assumptions, unless I use niche sublables which (other then likeminded) most people will not even recognize as lables.

Perhaps a tiny part of me has the part of wanting to belong to something, although I must admit I am even split on that verdict.. I like diversity too much..

so [x] Human

That's the best I can do, although it's plausible to think even that might be wrong :)

[Pat]

I was never invested in my male persona. Before I accepted myself for who/what I was, I literally could not have cared less what people thought of me. Some people would say that was "cool", but "cool" had nothing to do with it. I didn't care about what they thought because I didn't really care about that persona. I didn't take care of myself. I didn't put any effort into anything but work and trying to be funny so I didn't have to talk about anything really important.

Zooey, this is a place where you and I can strongly agree. That is exactly how I was when I was pseudo-male. I did not get invested in an identity until I worked out the whole transgender thing. Which makes "transgender" a pretty important label to me. The OP asks why would I seek a label? Zooey is TG just like I am. She is also TS but I am not. I seek another label that describes me. Crossdresser/transvestite describes a behavior -- people can crossdress without being TG (paid actors, for example.) This is a reason for label-seeking behavior.


From what i've seen, crossdressers LOVE it when they're labeled women in public. I've read plenty of posts here from folks who claim to identify as in-between/non-binary who seem to love it too. To me, if your identity is really such a distinctly different thing, I don't see why somebody in public mislabeling you a "woman" should be any less infuriating than being labeled a "man" or "TS" or anything else that's inaccurate.

I understand what you're saying. I have seen the same things you describe. But I know that it doesn't describe all crossdressers since it doesn't describe me. I don't want to be mistaken for a woman. I want to be recognized as that thing that I am for which there is not yet a word, so not yet a label. (For a while I was using the term "transgender male" but "transman" sounds too close, it would prevent rather than facilitate communication. So my label-seeking behavior continues. ;) )

Crossdressers don't really have role models (yes, I am purposely ignoring Benny Hill and Monty Python) and I think (but can't prove) that a lot of crossdressers adopt the goal of "passing" for a woman for a couple of reasons: first, because that's the closest model they have to a success of no longer being a male, and second because "passing" equals safety. If someone can't tell you're a man dressed as a woman they won't try to harm you for being a man who is dressed as a woman. I can honor that. But I think if we could carve out a world where the idea of transgender people are accepted as common, that need will go away and more crossdressers would be completely happy to assert their true identity. We're not as organized and focused as TS people are yet. That's why we don't act like TS people do.

[sarahcsc]

However a TS transitioner has usually gone through hell and fire to reveal to the world their identity, when you have risked so much who wouldn't be protective of their hard fought status?We have TS on here that have come out, spent most of their money, lost homes, lost family, lost jobs, been through painful operations some that have gone wrong. All to be authentic.
Do you think if after all that it's not surprising if they are a little prickly to be then labeled as a man in a dress? I think saying brain peculiarly is a bit unfair of you.


Hi Becky, thank you for your comment. There are lots that you mentioned in your post, most of which I deemed intellectual and hence will not respond to it.

In fact, what I'm about to say is also off topic *slap on the hand*. But I am very interested in exactly what you're talking about, that is being "prickly".

I call it a brain peculiarity because I believe people with gender dysphoria do have slightly peculiar brains, peculiar enough to have gender dysphoria I suppose.

I came across an interesting article by Dr. McHugh of the John Hopkins hospital, who found that mortality and morbidity rates were higher for TS populations who had SRS (http://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120).

Now now... before anybody gets prickly about this... I have read the article and I have pointed out many flaws in its design. The discussion section of the paper has a well-written paragraph on its limitations too which is worth reading. Simply speaking, this study only proves that a person's problems do NOT end following SRS.

As to being prickly, I have to wonder, is this really how a TS wish to live his/her life for the rest of their lives?

I wonder if TSs know that life does not necessarily gets easier after SRS (as the study showed) and if they were prickly before the surgery, are they going to be more prickly after? If that is the case, they have to start questioning their wisdom of undergoing surgery.

I believe we all have a choice to make when it comes to how we choose to live our lives. Two TSs can have the same awful experience during their transition but one comes out bitter and the other forgiving. This is a personal choice. Even a bitter person can make an effort by seeking therapy. It takes effort to forgive, and the same goes for being bitter or... prickly.


ive noticed that some of the words you used here today were dissected, apparently they were insulting to someone and not your intention im sure, i find it extremely hard to compose my thoughts when i post or start a thread, the fear of inadvertently insulting or confusing what im trying to convey.....sometimes i will leave the page and hit the back button.....
[/I]

Mikell, I often write things that are insulting, but please bear with me because this is only the start.

My real curiosity lies behind the insult. Why would somebody feel insulted by my words? Did I hit a sensitive spot? A spot that they have avoided touching? What are the feelings that are invoked when I touch that spot? Can we bring those emotions out and make sense of it together?

If anybody feels insulted by me, it would only serve to pique my interest further!


In this case people actually are using these words as labels and my discomfort comes from their implied requirement that I participate in their world view just so I can renew my driver's license or some other simple human transaction.

So that's why and when "labels" are important to me.

So you're uncomfortable that you have to conform in order to get your basic needs met? And in order to conform, you have to adopt a label that is misrepresentative? I understand how that feels. I too feel a sting when I have to identify myself as male when crossing airport customs. I moved on in a split second.

Conformism is not the enemy to me, but somehow it is to you? Help me understand this.


Note: There are quite a lot of intellectual arguments building up.:doh: I'd encourage people to focus on feelings... Not the practicalities of labelling. (ie. aids communication, organizes the world, helps establish a common ground etc).

[becky77]

Sarah I'm not sure why but when you write about TS there is a sense of irritation/bitterness in your words?

Why sarcastically repeat my prickly comment?
You take the prickly comment and focus on that as if it reveals a chink, rather than explore the words behind it.

Imagine two people go in for a Cancer check and one is clear the other isn't.
Two years later they meet up, the second person has spent most of that time fighting cancer, operation, Chemo, hair loss, fear and pain but eventually beats it.
The first person says "We are the same us, both Cancer victims".
If the second person felt a little 'prickly' at the lack of understanding in that comment would you also question them or empathise?

Just because you are a little put out by someone's insensitivity doesn't mean you carry a bitterness everywhere you go.

I'm full-time most of this stuff is irrelevant in my life, I join in here because some of the discussions are interesting. I only know my story so I like to hear what makes other people tick.

I'm not sure what it is that you are trying to discover for yourself, it does feel like you are projecting a little.
As mentioned in one of your previous threads which I did find illuminating.

I'm happy to PM if you think I have misinterpreted you.
But I suspect you are trying to provoke a reaction in the hope it reveals something that you are currently struggling to grasp?

[Pat]

So you're uncomfortable that you have to conform in order to get your basic needs met? And in order to conform, you have to adopt a label that is misrepresentative? I understand how that feels. I too feel a sting when I have to identify myself as male when crossing airport customs. I moved on in a split second.

Conformism is not the enemy to me, but somehow it is to you? Help me understand this.

I'd say it's not conforming that's the issue to me, it's the lying.

I'm pragmatic, I have to get my license renewed, so I check the 'male' box and get my picture taken in male mode. But having lied to get it rankles me. telling myself I was forced to lie doesn't make me feel any better. If anything I'm reminded that obtaining something by lying is theft. Doesn't make me feel better about myself.

But sometime, say writing my congressional representative (yeah, I'm one of those kind) where their online form requires me to pick a "Title" from a list I'm not in, I might well choose not to complete the task than reduce my sense of myself with a lie.


In fact, what I'm about to say is also off topic *slap on the hand*. But I am very interested in exactly what you're talking about, that is being "prickly".

As it happens, I know a fairish number of TS people and don't believe this is a TS characteristic, it's just an individual. I know some TS folk that you have to pick your words carefully around and I also know many who are joyful about their situation and forgiving of those who don't understand them (usually remembering they didn't understand themselves for a long time.) There was a similar distraction back in the early days of 1960's Feminism. Some were labeled "strident" and some were fine. It's not their membership in the group that makes them how they are; that's how people are -- no matter what the topic is. There are "prickly" pilots, musicians , computer programmers, presidential candidates etc.

[Late edit:] Thinking about it over coffee, it seems to me that "prickly-ness" is almost always a function of the person feeling disrespected. If you're interest is feelings and you're eliciting that response then perhaps it's your approach to that other person. That would fit with my sense that I have to "pick my words carefully" around some people. I'm inadvertently triggering them with my normal, admittedly insouciant, style. ;)

[Stephanie47]

ill also second what katey said....except that toe thingy, i dont even know what that means....

A toe-popper is a small landmine that is intended to maim rather than kill. So, Katey is trying to tip-toe through the thread without violating the restrictions placed by Sara.

[sarahcsc]

Sarah I'm not sure why but when you write about TS there is a sense of irritation/bitterness in your words?

Imagine two people go in for a Cancer check and one is clear the other isn't.
Two years later they meet up, the second person has spent most of that time fighting cancer, operation, Chemo, hair loss, fear and pain but eventually beats it.
The first person says "We are the same us, both Cancer victims".

Why sarcastically repeat my prickly comment?
You take the prickly comment and focus on that as if it reveals a chink, rather than explore the words behind it.



Hi Becky,

Okay, at the rate we're going, we have about 12.7 posts before the moderator shuts down the thread. Lol. Lets see if we could work together by back tracking a little:

1. I started a topic genuinely curious about the reason people seek labels.
2. Katey mentioned about labels providing a sense of belonging.
3. I expanded on it by talking about people who feel misrepresented by labels, quoted zooey because I thought she made a good point about cherishing her identity, suggested that it could probably be related to sense of security, and left it open when it came to TS as either a brain peculiarity or a psychological disposition.
4. Katey also wondered if it had something to do with a sense of security.
5. You came along and said it is "unfair" that I attributed it to a brain peculiarity, and said TS are "prickly" because of what they've been through.
6. I replied that that being "prickly" or "bitter" is a personal choice.
7. You said I'm being sarcastic.
8. ... I started back-tracking, thinking "Have I hit a spot?"

Did I mention the word "prickly" too many times? Was it wrong to equate being prickly with being bitter?

Or was it the part regarding "personal choice"? is it something about "sense of security"?

Do you have anything to add besides the statement that I'm sarcastic or projecting?

The problem with those two "cancer" patients lies firstly with the "label". Cancer is easy to prove or disprove. Gender dysphoria? Not so easy.

And I don't think it gives people the right to repudiate the suffering of others just because they feel they are suffering a great deal themselves.

What if two cancer patients were sitting in the same waiting room where one has been dealing with cancer for years while the other was freshly diagnosed, in other words, free from the side effects of chemotherapy for now. Would it still be inappropriate for one of them to say "we're both cancer victims?" What is going to stop one from saying to the other, "you don't know anything about cancer until you had your first dose of chemotherapy!"

Being prickly means that others feel like they are walking on eggshells around them. I feel we should reserve our tragic stories for our therapists not for our friends and family.

But really, I'm not passing any judgments on people who choose to be prickly or not, all I'm saying is that, being prickly is a personal choice. If that is sarcasm to you... well, that is something interesting to think about isn't it?

I am curious to know why people are prickly and I have my reasons for being curious. I was just afraid the conversation would always end up like this:

"I am prickly because I have gone through so much"
"So seek therapy if you feel prickly, its your choice"
"Stop saying I'm prickly, I'm not prickly!"
"wait... what?"

I've probably said prickly a hundred times now... its starting to sound weird to me.

Love,
S

[flatlander_48]

To start, I have never had a problem with the concept of labels and their appropriate usage. However, I do object to the misapplication of labels in order to misrepresent or further a particular agenda. Personally, I think a lot of the dislike of the use of labels can be traced back to the misapplication with the expressed purpose of misrepresentation.

Anyway, beyond labels is the more important, but often overlooked, idea of the development of understanding and the thought process leading to that understanding. Whether you get to that place by the assistance of a medical professional or by personal evaluation and introspection, I personally don't care. The significance is the process and the journey. Also, note that I did not include WHY. Developing an understanding of HOW You ARE is has nothing to do with WHY. I think people get concerned with WHY because they think if they figured out the WHY, they could undo it. Well, guess again...

Further, it is important that we define ourselves. In recent times, one thing that has happened is that we as a community have lost control of the words Transgender and Transsexual. Unfortunately the assumption is now that if one self-identifies as Transgender, the public usually expects that that person will transition or is currently transitioning. Whenever I have outed myself as Transgender, I am very specific about stating that I have no plans to transition. Somehow, proper usage of the Transgender term must be reclaimed and the term Transsexual used appropriately. I would also say that if one is unhappy with the term Transsexual, then PLEASE invent another term. But, until that happens, Transsexual it is.

DeeAnn

[becky77]

DeeAnn I use the word Transsexual because it's relevant to my condition, but it's not a very nice word. I think it's the 'sexual' it just doesn't sound appropriate but I don't feel the need to create a new word, you have to be practical.

On here these words are relevant to help express view points within the discussion, it's probably different for you as you are within the coming out stage and you are active in the community.
For me I just live as a woman, there is no need to label myself for anyone. Women/Men don't go around stating their gender, it's a given.
I appreciate that it maybe a different case for someone struggling to project their correct gender, especially if that's mixed.

Sarah you're reading way too much into this.
I was just trying to explain why I think someone might not like a particular situation in regards to labelling, how did that turn into a sweeping generalisation and continued mental state?

Some people like labels some people really don't most of us don't spend much time thinking on it.
It was an interesting thread but you have gone a bit weird on us.

[Shelly Preston]

As much as some don't like labels sometimes they are useful.

It can help us define who we are.

Then of course you sometimes you get asked the question by someone who wants to understand better.

On some official forms - Have you ever identified as being Transgender individual ?

The problem is there are so many variations the labels don't always fit perfectly.

[LaurenS]

Importance? Hmm...

Anyway, if accurate, a label is a fact. We are all, I assume human. Then it gets fuzzier. Then, the struggles with the blurry edges, then pile on the connotations, and it can quickly become confusing and even inaccurate to even the most informed.

But, hey, it's a starting place. For me, labeling myself is more of a way to better understand and define me. When others use a label on themselves, I use it as a starting point, and even look for those things that don't fit the label. I like that.

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn I use the word Transsexual because it's relevant to my condition, but it's not a very nice word. I think it's the 'sexual' it just doesn't sound appropriate but I don't feel the need to create a new word, you have to be practical.

Others have voiced this opinion, but it seems that no viable alternative has surfaced. I think this also relates to what happens with media references regarding the use of the word Sex. Their solution, incorrect though it is, was to morph Transgender as this overarching term. That's unfortunate because what it did was eliminate the middle ground between Crossdressers and Transsexuals. In other words, any degree of Dysphoria = Transition and clearly that is not correct.

DeeAnn

[mechamoose]

I'm ME. I defy labels.

People like to *belong*, labels assist in that. It categorizes us into neat little boxes.

+ points for excellent and intelligent grammar, - points for Ayn Rand.

I'm sorry, she was a jerk (to put it politely, I discarded several other options)

- MM

[mykell]

hi sarah,

Mikell, I often write things that are insulting, but please bear with me because this is only the start.

My real curiosity lies behind the insult. Why would somebody feel insulted by my words? Did I hit a sensitive spot? A spot that they have avoided touching? What are the feelings that are invoked when I touch that spot? Can we bring those emotions out and make sense of it together?

If anybody feels insulted by me, it would only serve to pique my interest further!

seems youve started a therapy session, if i remember correctly you are a working professional ?
you seem to be looking for way more than why a label is important. maybe we can be paid for this study....


There has been countless threads debating the meaning/definition of terms including "crossdresser", "transgender", "transsexual", "woman", "man", etc.

After awhile, the debates become somewhat predictable. Those who don't know could look up the forum although there's much to wade through. Basically, most people would either agree to disagree or the moderator shuts down the thread.

But I was wondering, just purely out of curiosity, why is a label so important to you?

I want to know what motivates a person to seek a label. What are the feelings associated with being labelled? What is there to gain? What is the alternative to labelling?

I am not judging anybody and not ashamed to admit that I am not a fan of labelling. I have my reasons. But I'm very curious to know the other side of the story.

WARNING: In reality, labelling to some extent is inevitable so please don't start by saying "I don't label myself and I don't believe in labelling". In which case, you belong to the intellectual group and you can start a thread independent of this.

WARNING: I do not wish to start yet another intellectual debate about the pros and cons of labelling, so please avoid discussing reasons why you think labelling should or should not happen.

HINT: Be as broad and expansive as you can. There are after all, so many labels in this world which can be be exemplified.

I would love to hear everybody's opinion on this.

Love,
S

as it stands everyone is labeled daily, its just organizational....
what part of the forum would you like to post in? what is the title of the thread?

so its more about who is doing the labeling, is it a freind is it an enemy is it insulting is it complementary .......

being called a faggot was a label many would not feel good about....i know i never did, just typing it now has felt wrong, prickly ?, dont really want to embellish on that feeling.

having my first friend request felt weird, but i accepted, it was comforting, i felt good.

"crossdresser", "transgender", "transsexual", "woman", "man","liar", "coward", "dishonest", "gay", "honest", "fetish", ive added to your original forum labels,

they are just words really......when composed with other words they can take on a whole new meaning, they can be taken in many different ways....sometimes just by the person who is using them, lots of personalities here....

so we cant escape labels they are an intricate part of reality, but i think i can speak for most here that we all like a kind well intentioned label, even negative or honest opinion can be taken as a positive if it is worded constructively.....

inevitably the human part of our community shines through and feelings or pride or insecurity, arrogance, superiority, fear come through in the words we choose.....take the forum out as a whole and we are still going to be labeled, human, employee, american.....we are either going to like or embrace the label or dislike or disassociate ourselves from it....

i must say i was slightly disturbed by your admission of purposely insulting comments, poking the bear ? encouraging forum chaos for what purpose ?

[heatherdress]

Becky - It is unfair of you to criticize Sarah. She initiated a topic and politely tried to establish parameters to keep the discussion focused and non-confrontational.



http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/

[rachelatshop]

Dear Sarah and everyone,
I am new to this community, and came here a short time ago to try to learn more about what it was to be a cross dresser so that I would be better able to talk to the greatest love in my life, my wife. I needed to be able to answer the questions for myself before I will be able to answer them for my wife. For the past 3 weeks I have been reading the post to this forum, and the one thing that I find in common that almost all of us can claim is that we cross dress. I am little disturbed that you people are still trying to put each other into boxes. You people better than anyone else should understand that the more advanced a life form is, the more diverse it becomes, and when you think that you have finally put every creature into its box You will find one that does not fit.
I am 64 years old and I have always identified as male; I have never been uncomfortable with that identity; nor have I ever felt any need to be a woman 24/7. That said, I started as many men do by buying an article of women’s clothing to use in self-gratification, and over time that experimentation grew. At the time I had never heard of cross dressing and only knew that this was a very private thing and part of my self-gratification and not something to discuss with anyone.
When I met my wife our relationship was different than any relationship I had ever had with any other woman, and my collection was put away and forgotten for more than 15 years. A couple of years ago following an experiment with wearing panty hose to help keep my legs warm at my shop, my interest in cross dressing resurfaced. I knew that I had an interest in cross dressing and so I came to this community to learn about cross dressing and hopefully about myself, as I felt that I needed to be able to open up, even more to my wife about my feelings. What I learned, from reading many, many posts, was that I really needed, to first know, what my need to cross dress means to me. Several weeks ago, I had the opportunity to push my envelope to a level I had never been to. I would challenge myself to dress, and look like a woman, 24/7. I cannot pass completely as a woman as I have a full beard so the challenge is to look like a woman from the neck down. I did this for several days and even went to the shop (little risk of being caught, as I have change of clothes in bathroom). At no time did I feel that dressing as a woman was something that I emotionally had to do. I never felt that I became another personality different than my male personality. I did get a rush from the risk of being outed. I found the challenge of looking as passable as is possible rewarding, and I very much loved the feel of the female fabrics, the freedom of the cloths, and the verity of styles and colors. I identify as male and at no time when dressed as a woman or not, does my identify change. I love and respect women and feel that to be seen out dressed, in such a way, that I would not completely pass as a woman, would be embarrassing to my wife and an insult to all cis-women. That said one of my greatest fantasies would be, to be a shape shifter, and be able to spend time out as another person (woman) where nobody except me would know. You can only truly know someone when you have walked a mile in their shoes. Life is a never ending search to learn who we are and how we fit into the universe. I don’t like labels but sometimes they help anchor us and give us the comfort of a community, something that all mankind seeks. I still do not know how to identify myself, sometimes I wish that members would just say, I identify as “X” and explain why!

[becky77]

@ Heather
Oh, I didn't mean that as dismissive?
There is a thread where the term JCDER is being used and I was trying to be supportive, you have selectively quoted, what about where I said there is nothing wrong with a CDer establishing their stand point?
I did say that the inbetweeners are hard to label and under represented, is that also dismissive?
Because I mean no disrespect.

I feel you have taken the Prickly comment out of context, Sarah implied there was something wrong with anyone defending their identity (brain peculiarly, strange psychological disposition) how come you haven't noticed how dismissive that is?

All I was doing was attempting to show why a TS might react like that, I'm not saying it's right or wrong just how someone that has had a tough time of it may be a bit defensive.
It's human nature, it doesn't mean there is an underlining problem.

I said it's irrelevant in my life as in outside the forum, therefore labels are not an issue and I'm not all vexed by Sarah deliberately trying to provoke (her words).
That's not the same as saying you or this discussion is irrelevant. If I thought like that why would I be contributing?

I've said several times it's interesting and I value the majority of replies, I've read them all.

I'm sorry if you have taken offense, it wasn't intended.
Sarah's words come across as dismissive of TS to me, mine come across as dismissive of CDs to you. It's hard to defend a view point without someone taking it personal, even harder when someone else reads into why you are being defensive then creates an imagined dialogue.

The Cancer analogy was't the best, is one person feeling their struggle has been dismissed in turn dismissive of the other? Why is that belittling Crossdressers rather than belittling TS?
Perhaps we could agree that depending on what side you are on, depends if you feel slighted?

I respect that you stand up when you perceive a slight, I was only doing the same.


@ Rachel
You said you identify as male, then said you don't know your identity?
Do you mean you know your identity but not sure where you fit in regards to your dressing? That's very common.
I think it depends on the reason for the dressing.
Sexual, calming, expression, identity etc.
Perhaps only further exploration will reveal that to you.
Pink fog can also complicate things, just be mindful of that it can temporarily impair judgement.
Like when you buy something new and it's all you can think of then it becomes the norm.


For your info.
I identify as female, therefore I personally don't consider myself Crossdressing.
If I had a label here it would be TS, being binary I'm guilty of wanting to fit in a box. Although I'm aware I'll never truly fit in that box.
I also don't disagree with being labelled Transgender, although I have reservations about aspects of a spectrum.
I'm secure in my identity now but it took a long time to escape the denial and discover who I was.
Hope that's honest enough?

[Barbara147]

I am a great believer in labels since it is what we use for reference when we are communicating with others. When painting a picture in words, labels are quite necessary.

[flatlander_48]

r@s:

Until recently I would have referred you to the glossary in the Standards of Care document put out by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH). I used to be free online, but now it appears that you need to either be a member or pay $45. So, instead I will refer you to:

http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resources_definiton_of_terms

Specifically, the definitions for Transgender, Crossdresser and Transsexual are the ones of interest. Usually the definitions offered by organizations that are within the community, or are serving the community, are roughly in agreement.

One of the reasons that what you read here can be a bit confusing relates to denial. Often it takes some time for people to understand where things sit for them. The confusion that you read reflects the confusion that they have. Also, I suspect that many have not read any sort of formalized definitions. So, I would suggest reading the Berkeley definitions, and any others that you run across, then read what people say.

In part, the Transgender definition says: "Transgender people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with.". The Transsexual definition says: "Transsexual refers to a person who experiences a mismatch of the sex they were born as and the sex they identify as.". I don't have a problem with the definitions as presented, except for one thing: degree is left out. For Transsexuals, the "mismatch" that is mentioned is complete or nearly complete. For Transgender people, there is no mention of the degree to which the psychological self differs from the social expectations of the physical self. I would say "some" because if that difference is very large, probably a better description would be Transsexual.

As this applies to me, I identify as Transgender. I have "some" of that difference between psychological and physical selves; maybe 20% or so. In other words, enough to be noticeable but not enough that would warrant considering transition. People often talk about shame and guilt as related to their dressing. I had very very little of that. Basically DeeAnn is another, and quite welcome and comfortable, facet of Don's personality.

DeeAnn

[Robin414]

Wow, deep thread! I was looking for the Executive Summary! IMHO I think it's not that 'I' need a label as much as the muggles do, and allowing them that makes me more comfortable!?

I'd comment more deeply on a few of the posts but I don't want to exclude any of the posts from so many of my respected members!

[sarahcsc]

Until recently I would have referred you to the glossary in the Standards of Care document put out by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH). I used to be free online, but now it appears that you need to either be a member or pay $45. So, instead I will refer you to:

http://geneq.berkeley.edu/lgbt_resources_definiton_of_terms

Specifically, the definitions for Transgender, Crossdresser and Transsexual are the ones of interest. Usually the definitions offered by organizations that are within the community, or are serving the community, are roughly in agreement.

One of the reasons that what you read here can be a bit confusing relates to denial. Often it takes some time for people to understand where things sit for them. The confusion that you read reflects the confusion that they have. Also, I suspect that many have not read any sort of formalized definitions. So, I would suggest reading the Berkeley definitions, and any others that you run across, then read what people say.

DeeAnn[/COLOR]

Thank you for the link, DeeAnn! I've been relying predominantly on wikipedia to explain these terms (I know... oops) but now I've got a reliable source to refer to.

You've brought another great idea worth exploring: "what is the role of denial in our quests for labels?" For example, a TS might seek the label of a CD because the pain associated with being a TS is too great. In this case, he/she might become very defensive when being labelled something else and would um.... be somewhat disproportionately passionate about his/her label. (Did that sound right?)

I can safely say that most if not all of us, have dealt with a healthy dose of denial before coming to where we are today. I say "healthy" because denial in itself is not necessarily a bad thing but only when it is used in moderation and only for a short time. People who are constantly in denial risk having very bad outcomes later in life.

One of the things which I have always suspected about "labels" in general, is that it carries the risk of distracting us from the true crux of an issue. For example, I am very cautious when assigning a diagnosis of ADHD to a child because I am aware of the risk of being over-reliant on medications rather than improving parenting style. In this case, it is easy to blame the child's behaviour on ADHD rather than poor parenting, both of which causes very similiar behavioural problems in children.

To expand further on this topic, denial is also evident when people attribute most of their misery to their label/diagnosis. In this case, denial is used to avoid personal responsibility by denying one's role in pursuing one's happiness / meaning / purpose in life. I have known patients who are depressed but at the same time refused to make any lifestyle changes or engage in therapy.

Here on the forum, I have come across people with a "do or die" mentality, that is, they would not transition until suicide comes knocking on their door. It almost seemed as though a denial of their gender dysphoria along with the denial of their own role in creating happiness and fullfillment for themselves, have led to this tragic outcome. There are also people who are more proactive in seeking gender therapy and being open with family and friends (despite the pending wrath and consequences).

Based on my readings (and please correct me if I'm wrong), people with a "do or die" mentality are just a little bit more um... sensitive, while the proactive bunch merely sees gender dysphoria as one of the other obstacles in life and have a more balanced view of it. They are able to see the positives and negatives (ie. "yes I have lost my job but I am much happier now", "yes I have been disowned by my family but I've made some new and lasting friendships") of gender dysphoria as opposed to just the negatives.

One member of the forum said, "I would not wish having gender dysphoria on my worst enemies". I on the other hand, saw gender dysphoria as a major aspect of my life that shaped me the way I am today, both good and bad.

It makes sense that labels are confusing for some due to varying degrees of denial. But there could be other factors as well.

Great idea, DeeAnn. :)

Anything you want to add?




Dear Sarah and everyone, I am little disturbed that you people are still trying to put each other into boxes.
You people better than anyone else should understand that the more advanced a life form is, the more diverse it becomes, and when you think that you have finally put every creature into its box You will find one that does not fit....


This is a great idea because it sheds light on whether or not labelling is even feasible. Because if it isn't, then any psychological or practical justification for labelling is moot.

Rachel, I concur with your observation that a lifeform becomes more diverse as it becomes more advanced. This same principle can also be applied to this forum; the more advanced this forum becomes, the more diversity will follow, and curious people like me are the by-product of this diversity.

Sooner or later, one of us are going ask the more difficult questions such as "what do these labels really mean to us, not as a collective group, but as individuals?" or "are these labels really serving our best interest, not in the short term, but in the long run?" etc.

This is just a discussion about that.


hi sarah...
seems youve started a therapy session, if i remember correctly you are a working professional ?
you seem to be looking for way more than why a label is important. maybe we can be paid for this study....

i must say i was slightly disturbed by your admission of purposely insulting comments, poking the bear ? encouraging forum chaos for what purpose ?

Okay... I think I owe everybody an explanation here even if this is off topic.

Yes, I'm a professional, but to conduct therapy was definitely not my intention. I, of all people, should understand that therapy provided in an inappropriate setting is likely going to cause more harm than good, and doing therapy in an online PUBLIC forum is definitely NOT therapeutic not to mention ethical.

Having said that, you'd find that most therapists are "curious". If life was akin to an untapped gold mine, then curiosity is the shovel that unearths the gold.

I can only say that I am curious for both personal and professional reasons.

I guess I have to address your question (if I was purposely provoking a response with the things I write) before we could proceed.

I knew this was going to be a sensitive topic before I started therefore I made every precautions to keep the thread as focussed and neutral as possible. That explains the the two red WARNING signs and the transparency of my stance with labelling in general in the OP.

Also, with every idea presented, I have expanded on it by either injecting some of my thoughts and by quoting what others have said without painting anybody in specific in a negative light. I always invite others to add to or even critique the idea hence "what are your thougths?" at the end of my posts.

People can either agree or disagree along with a reason, but some are more inclined to say that I'm being intentionally provocative. Why? I dont' know, and I'm trying to know!

Aren't you curious yourself, that the topic itself is so sensitive, that people might start perceiving me as being insulting, sarcastic, projecting, and gosh... doing therapy, despite all the efforts put in place to ensure the topic remains as neutral as possible?

In a way, it is kind of like therapy if you consider what Socrates did to the Athenian people therapeutic by asking lots of questions. We can look back in hindsight and say that Socrates was providing therapy against ignorance but it was certainly not perceived that way back in his day. He was put to death for asking questions and I am relieved that none of you have the capability to do that. Phew!

I'm not trying to be grandiose by saying I'm the next Socrates, but I dare to say that I exemplify his vision and thirst for knowledge. I think Socrates would be proud of me today.

But isn't it curious that asking too many or certain questions often provokes negative feelings?

Look, I don't know if Socrates was trying to provoke the Athenian society in a bad way to gain himself reputation, but it is his birthright to be curious and to ask questions. After all, isn't this what separates us from machines and animals? And if somebody feels insulted, then I have the right to ask "why?"


Sarah you're reading way too much into this.
I was just trying to explain why I think someone might not like a particular situation in regards to labelling, how did that turn into a sweeping generalisation and continued mental state?

Some people like labels some people really don't most of us don't spend much time thinking on it.
It was an interesting thread but you have gone a bit weird on us.

Sorry Becky, but we need to move on. I think we can agree that there is no animosity between us. However, I highly appreciate your ideas on "why people seek labels" other than because of the practicalities of it. So far, we have talked about a sense of belonging, identity security, allaying anxiety due to confusion etc.

And ONE very important thing we haven't discussed, is the coming up of "alternatives" (if any was possible). This was stated in the OP.

[heatherdress]

A basic source of denial sometimes are the definitions themselves. Transgender is an example. In most sources, transgender has two different definitions.

Per DeeAnn's suggested source:

"• "Transgender" (sometimes shortened to trans or TG) people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. To understand this, one must understand the difference between biological sex, which is one's body (genitals, chromosomes, etc.), and social gender, which refers to levels of masculinity and femininity. Often, society conflates sex and gender, viewing them as the same thing. But, gender and sex are not the same thing. Transgender people are those whose psychological self ("gender identity") differs from the social expectations for the physical sex they were born with. For example, a female with a masculine gender identity or who identifies as a man.

• An umbrella term for transsexuals, cross-dressers (transvestites), transgenderists, gender queers, and people who identify as neither female nor male and/or as neither a man or as a woman. Transgender is not a sexual orientation; transgender people may have any sexual orientation. It is important to acknowledge that while some people may fit under this definition of transgender, they may not identify as such."

There is a significant difference between definitions. The first addresses psychological self and gender identification. The second definition is very different. It attempts to assign community with many diverse groups. It is an "umbrella" term for grouping. There is no commonality related to sexual orientation. It does not necessarily result in self-identification or individual acceptance into the community.

Some of the disagreements and denials we discuss develop because of the basic differences between the definitions of the label, itself. Other sources, by the way, also present two different definitions of "transgender".

[flatlander_48]

hd:

I don't think you should look at them as alternative definitions, as together, they really form one definition. Transgender is an umbrella term and it also highlights the differences between our physical and psychological selves.

From the definitions put forth by the 3-4 organizations that I've read, there is a lot of similarity between the statements. Not 100%, but maybe 70%-80%. I suspect some of it has to do with ones viewpoint. In other words, I would expect some variance if ones background is medicine, psychology, human resources or whatever.

Personally, owing to my technical background, I would adhere to K.I.S. = Keep It Simple. To me, it looks like this:



If you dress in the clothes and trappings of the gender that is opposite to your assigned at birth gender, you are Transgender. You have crossed a gender boundary. Frequency, location and activities are irrelevant.

If you dress as part of a fetish or self-gratification, but your identity remains completely, or nearly completely, male, then you are part of the Crossdresser subset.
If you have an extreme mismatch between your physical and psychological selves, to the extent that you feel you need to take steps toward correcting this mismatch (medications, surgeries, etc.) then you are part of the Transsexual subset
Anyone between those bookends is a Transgender person who does not need to transition.



Anyway, that's as simple as I can make it. Note that I am not offering this as a set of definitions. I am only saying this this is how I view things.

sc:

Anytime the conversation turns to gender or sexuality issues, the spoken and unspoken prejudices and unresolved fears can bubble to the surface. These topics hit close to the core of our being and that's why we can get everything between meaningful introspection and incoherent BS. It's just material that is very hard for people to deal with realistically.

DeeAnn

[heatherdress]

DeeAnn - I disagree. They are clearly alternative, unconnected definitions, not just in the source you suggested as quoted above, but also in others. Wikipedia, for example, begins a transgender discussion with several clearly different alternative definitions:

"Transgender people experience a mismatch between their gender identity or gender expression and their assigned sex. Transgender is also an umbrella term because, in addition to including trans men and trans women whose binary gender identity is the opposite of their assigned sex (and who are sometimes specifically termed transsexual if they desire medical assistance to transition), it may include genderqueer people (whose identities are not exclusively masculine or feminine, but may, for example, be bigender, pangender, genderfluid, or agender). Other definitions include third-gender people as transgender or conceptualize transgender people as a third gender, and infrequently the term is defined very broadly to include cross-dressers."

There is little similarity between the definitions, as you suggest, and more appropriately, they are rather independent and serve different purposes.

Your own definition begins with the supposition that "if you dress in the clothes and trappings of the gender that is opposite to your assigned at birth gender, you are Transgender" (another definition for transgender). You simply dictate all crossdressers are transgender. Maybe too simple and maybe offensive or unacceptable to crossdressers. You also disqualify any consideration of frequency, degree, extent of dressing, intent or purpose of crossdressing. That also seems too simple.

I respect your view but I think it does represent the consistent label of "transgender" pushed on crossdressers.

[Pat]

Heather -- I guess I'm puzzled where you see the distinction. I know you've explained your view twice now, but it's still not sinking in for me. Are you thinking that Genderqueer (for example) people do not fit the definition of mismatch between gender identity and assigned sex? Isn't that mismatch coded into the term they use to self-identify? I'm presuming they match the definition and so don't see it as a problem that the term transgender can be the umbrella that covers all the different non cis-gender behaviors. Even fetishistic crossdressers are adopting a behavior that is a mismatch between their gender identity and assigned sex (to me -- are you seeing it differently?) Other than paid performers or people disguising themselves for some reason I can't think of a case where cis-gendered people would take up other-gender presentation. Which to me argues that Transgender as an umbrella term is pretty valid.

[NicoleScott]

It's not that I want or need a label. Labels are words, words have definitions, and I fit some of those definitions. So some labels apply to me. And everybody.
Yes, we are all unique, but that doesn't mean we don't fit into categories.

SCIU (Soup Cans International Union) has declared that their member soup cans no longer want to be labeled. So there!

[Saikotsu]

I'm of the mind that whether we want them or not, labels will be applied to us. So I embrace the ones I want, and I find them empowering in a way. They help my understanding of myself, and they provide a baseline to explain my experiences to others. Of course, I also reject the labels that I don't want or don't like, because they limit me or make me seek like something I'm not.

[AllieSF]

Maybe too simple and maybe offensive or unacceptable to crossdressers. You also disqualify any consideration of frequency, degree, extent of dressing, intent or purpose of crossdressing. That also seems too simple.

Heather, Your quoted sentence above appears to fit right into some of the questions that Sarah was just asking above. Why would the label "transgender" be offensive to you or other crossdressers? Would you be offended if someone at work called you a genius for solving a difficult problem, even if you knew that you were not? Would you be offended if someone thought that since you crossdress you are also gay? I think some of what Sarah is saying is that maybe we have some other issues that make us adamant that we are not, whatever label someone puts on us correctly or not. Is this "offense" felt because some may have a phobia against what that label represents? These are all questions, not opinions? Why are you and maybe others offended? The simple answer/reply to being mis-labeled is "No, I am not" with a "I am ...." thrown in for further clarity if deemed necessary at that moment of conversation. No offense needs to be taken, unless one feels that the label is demeaning, also meaning that one's opinion of that label and the type of people that it represents is bad.

[heatherdress]

Allie - I have always been comfortable with the gender label I have lived with since early childhood - male. I never had a doubt that I was male based upon my biological hardware. I discovered that I enjoyed crossdressing as a late-bloomer. At no time do I feel my enjoyment of crossdressing changed my gender from male. I do not doubt my gender. I just do not need a new gender label which was rather recently developed (1970s). I do not need transgender for personal identification. I already identify with many labels/groups which satisfy my needs - "male", "father", "husband", "brother", "veteran", and there are more. I don't need another identity label.

I think a gender label is different than an adjective like genius. Psychological labels have much greater importance to people than adjectives or labels which might describe appearance or capabilities. Who we are is usually much more important than what we can do.

Please understand that I am not offended if others want to label me "transgender", simply because I crossdress. I just don't care. I think it might mean much more to the labeler or community that I am placed in than it does to me. At the end of my life, I think the act of crossdressing and label of crossdresser will be somewhere on the list of my many lifetime labels, and pleasures, but it will not be at the top of my list, regardless of how much I enjoyed dressing. My soul and intellect define me, not my clothing and appearance which constantly change.

I admit reservations about being assigned to a transgender community, or any community, just because I crossdress. Most crossdressing behavior is typically alone, private, secret, infrequent, limited and intimate, regardless of adventures we discuss and dream about on this site. Crossdressers want to pass or be unnoticed in public. We are not "out there", representing our community, as some think we do. We blend. Most of us are only known to our wives and partners and most of them, even the accepting ones, do not seek acknowledgement or community involvement. Crossdressing support groups and events typically take place within hotels, private meeting rooms, reserved restaurants. Crossdressers do not even use there own name when dressed, primarily for privacy. Crossdressers on this site do not share what they look like or where they live. Crossdressing is usually private behavior. I have gone to many crossdressing functions and see my same crossdressing friends year after year, but most return to anonymity until the next time we meet. I believe that even though crossdressers want to be accepted and look for support, there is a minimal desired sense of community. Unfortunately, I suspect that the main reason crossdressers are placed within the "umbrella" transgender community label and then reminded that we are members of that community is because there are a lot of crossdressers and inclusion provides increased numbers and strength for the group. But being placed in a community does not mean you feel part of the community.

I do not have any negative feelings about any other individuals or groups that also have the label of transgender, regardless of which definition is used. I do not believe I have phobias, or fear of association, or behavior dislikes, or negative opinions. I believe I try to be openminded and accepting of others. I just do not think it is meaningful for me to be told that I have another label which includes me in a rather diverse transgender "community", because that conveys a community connection and a commonality which I do not feel exists.

Again, I apologize for any indications that I am offended or diminished by a transgender label or that I do not want to be associated with anyone who feels comfortable with a transgender label or if they are a member of a transgender community sub-group listed in a definition. I do realize that many of the labels we discuss are useful and important to many people. I think there is confusion with definitions and then potential improper use associated with labels. But on this site, the only thing that personally bothers me is the use of my transgender label, assigned because I am a crossdresser, to tell me that I must do something or support something that I do not believe in. For example, that I must "come out" to others, to demonstrate greater transgender numbers, regardless of how it might adversely affect my life. I feel the result of pushing others is more derisive than it is unifying. Sorry, but that's how I feel.

[Tina_gm]

Hmmm, lets say you feel hungry for soup. So, you go to the store, and all of a sudden every damn label has disappeared! How do you know which can is soup, and worse yet, you might get tomato when you want chicken noodle.....

At some point, we do need labels for communication and to communicate who we are so people have an understanding. We do not have to put ourselves in a tiny little box that says only.... but if we really completely go without any labels, we will have crippled ourselves in communicating ability.

[carrie001]

@Gendermutt. Very nice!

As time goes on, I'm becoming more and more pleased with my labels. I like them. It took a long time for me to not feel so lost, and internally at least, they help define me. My labels include crossdresser, transgender and/or gender fluid.

[sarahcsc]

Hmm... although these are very good discussion material, they are deviating towards the intellectual rather than the emotional.

Most people recognize the practicalities of labeling and I am not opposed to that. I am simply curious about the feelings which motivates "label seeking".

The soup analogy is great, but humans aren't cans of soup. That is, soups can't think for themselves and won't have an identity crisis if their labels are removed. Humans react very differently.

I gathered from earlier posts that a label gives us a sense of calm, identity, and belonging. Strangely for some, labels can also be misrepresentative and cause a lot of confusion and anxiety. This could be due to denial or simply a poor understanding of the terms available.

I have also mentioned some of the limitations and possible misuse of labels.

I think my search for answers had been fruitful on the whole thanks to contributive members of the forum. :) It has given me inspiration to ask more questions in the future.

I'll let this thread go on for awhile longer and will ask the moderator to lock it depending on how it evolves in the next day or two.

Love,
S

[Bobbi46]

I agree with carrie 001 a label is very important because it puts one in a "box" in which they are happy and content with, a label which illustrates that person correctly without any grey areas. For me I think gender fluid is the most appropriate because it defines me as someone not searching for total transition but someone content with being within a community such as ourselves and being happy and able to communicate with like minded people without fear of criticism or retribution. And also to be able to search out where I am within this life of mine.
Sometimes getting the labelling wrong is not helpful at all but I think that a correct label for an individual is a very needy thing indeed. It gives a feeling of being somewhere.

[NicoleScott]

Let's not take the soup can analogy too far. The point is that without labels, we know less. We don't even know it's soup, never mind what kind. Lucky for the soup cans that they don't experience confusion, anxiety, and identity crisis. Really, why should people experience these things except for their supersensitivity over differing definitions?
"Proper" use of labels will never be accomplished unless/until we agree on definitions, which of course will never happen.
So not to offend, I'm off to those golden arches for two all beef patties special sauce lettuce cheese pickles onions on a sesame seed bun.

[rachelatshop]

Thank you Sarah ,and everyone who responded to this Thread. i have followed this thread for the last couple days and have found it to have been one of the most helpful threads I have read recently
Thanks again to all

[Georgina]

I am not a label seeker but, like others I have labels put on me. I am labelled male, which is useful when I have to choose a toilet and filling in forms. I am also labelled a crossdresser or transvestite which means I can wear female clothes.

[Pat]

But on this site, the only thing that personally bothers me is the use of my transgender label, assigned because I am a crossdresser, to tell me that I must do something or support something that I do not believe in.

So you don't like the label because you feel it attempts to impose an obligation on you?

I often say that these terms we use should be used to describe us not define us. Transgender or Crossdresser should only be used to describe behaviors that we do or do not engage in. They should never be used as a definition where you feel you "should" do something because you are a Crossdresser or because you are Transgender. There are NO duties and responsibilities to being a crossdresser. You have NO moral obligations to the International Transgender Society.

That said, some are pushing the social envelope and they do it to try and make life better for everyone wearing the same label. In that case it's better if more people accept the no-obligation label of transgender because then it makes us look like a larger group to the outside (a whopping 0.03% of the US general population by the latest estimate) and the different groups under the umbrella actually do have common interests in being accepted and being free to move about the country unmolested. It's hard enough to get gender identity protection laws passed for the umbrella group. It would be impossible to pass it for every conceivable sub-group.

Oh dear, how did I get on this soap box? I'll be quiet now.

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn - I disagree. They are clearly alternative, unconnected definitions, not just in the source you suggested as quoted above, but also in others. Wikipedia, for example, begins a transgender discussion with several clearly different alternative definitions:

First, be careful about quoting Wikipedia. It's better to quote the actual source.

Second, note this part of the Berkeley definitions: "An umbrella term for transsexuals, cross-dressers (transvestites), transgenderists, gender queers, and people who identify as neither female nor male and/or as neither a man or as a woman."

Where would you get the definition of a transgenderist? From the preceding paragraph. I don't see how you can use a word as a blanket term and not define it. That's how the statements are linked.


Your own definition begins with the supposition that "if you dress in the clothes and trappings of the gender that is opposite to your assigned at birth gender, you are Transgender" (another definition for transgender).

It is not another definition. It is MY personal definition. This thread is about asking what people think and feel. And note My comment about crossing a gender boundary. That is the pure meaning of having the "trans" prefix ahead of the word "gender".


You simply dictate all crossdressers are transgender.

In my opinion, but, there are no golden scrolls that proclaim this as the law of the land. In that sense, dictate is inappropriate.


Maybe too simple and maybe offensive or unacceptable to crossdressers.

I formulate an opinion based on what I believe to be true. If someone thinks that I am offensive or whatever, that is their opinion. But, getting back to the statement, you cannot challenge the fact that a Crossdresser does cross a gender boundary.


You also disqualify any consideration of frequency, degree, extent of dressing, intent or purpose of crossdressing. That also seems too simple.

Simplicity is the goal. If it becomes too complicated, people begin to think that it is a smorgasbord and that they can pick and choose what they like. Another way to say it is that it reduces the degree of variability.

One way of explaining what I said is this: If person A robs a bank and person B robs 20 banks, are they not both bank robbers?


I respect your view but I think it does represent the consistent label of "transgender" pushed on crossdressers.

I would wonder if there isn't a strong fear among Crossdressers because they really worry about what may happen to them; that they may have struck a chord the ultimately leads to transitioning. There are MANY threads here about people wondering where will it all end. In that context, it makes sense that folks would want to avoid anything with the hint of going beyond Crossdressing.

Further, where do Transsexuals come from? Many started as Crossdressers.

DeeAnn

[heatherdress]

DeeAnn - We do have different points of view and I respect yours, as I have said. But I do take exception to the "strong fear" implication of ultimately transitioning that you imply crossdressers really worry about. Although there are some who crossdress who have doubts and fears and worries about where their journey may take them, I don't, and many other crossdressers don't. I don't only speak from my own perspective but from association and friendships with other crossdressers. We are satisfied simply wearing panties or a dress and have little desire to do anything beyond that. But your suggestion that we must be disingenuous is exactly the type of dismissive attitude frequently shown when crossdressers express a different opinion. There is almost no acceptance that our position is OK. Ours must be wrong. It is really offensive, and perhaps arrogant, DeeAnn, to counter an opinion that is different than yours by diminishing it as invalid suggesting that fear prevents honesty.

Jeannie - I believe labels both describe and define. If you accept and use the description, you are defining yourself. Also, in many threads, we are definitely pushed to support initiatives and political positions because we have to as part of the umbrella, even if we personally disagree. It is terrific that there is continuing progress for many in the LGBT spectrum. It is good for LGBT initiatives that inclusion of crossdressers swells the numbers. But unfortunately, most of that energy, progress and effort provides little benefit for crossdressers. You can change marriage and employment laws to protect those who are gay, or bisexual or transsexual, but there is little you can do for the majority of crossdressers who dress in private. Most crossdressers are really not worried about molestation. Most crossdressers are not worried about police arrest. Most crossdressers have not had problems using bathrooms. What crossdressers typically want is simple acceptance by their spouses, girlfriends and maybe neighbors, and that cannot be achieved by legislation or political promises or LGBT initiatives. If anything, a transgender label in addition to a crossdresser label might promote even more non-acceptance in relationships. I am glad of progress that has been made recently by the courage of Caitlyn Jenner and others, but that progress has minimal carryover to crossdressers. I just do not see the benefits and common interests that you do for crossdresser inclusion in the umbrella transgender community. Once again, I am not opposed to being called transgender - but I do not see transgender label affecting my life in any meaningful way.

[Sky]

please don't start by saying "I don't label myself and I don't believe in labelling". In which case, you belong to the intellectual group and you can start a thread independent of this.

Well, I don't label mys... sorry. But that's exactly how I feel. And no, I don't belong to any intellectual group. And there are already lots of threads about this, no need for more.

[NicoleScott]

DeeAnn, you said many transsexuals started out as crossdressers? A TS is a woman in a man's body. A crossdresser is a man who wears women's clothing (I'm simplifying and ignoring the FtM flip side). At what point did the man become a woman? Isn't it more accurate to say that many TS misidentified themselves as CDers?

Heather, I agree with your first paragraph reply to DeeAnn. Many of us CDers are secure with what we are, and don't live in confusion or fear over where we might be headed. For some of us, it's about the clothes.

Finally, I'm a crossdresser. Whether or not others consider me TG doesn't bother me at all.

[Lorileah]

I'll let this thread go on for awhile longer and will ask the moderator to lock it depending on how it evolves in the next day or two.

Love,
S
While you can ask a thread to be closed, I don't understand what you are seeking and why you seem to be annoyed that people are replying. Are you looking for a specific answer? It is hard for many people to separate emotional ideas from logical. I would say the answer as far as emotion goes would be "I need a label to know WHO I am and where I fit." Simple, no?

This discussion seems to be civil and well attended, why would you close it? If it has run its course for what you were seeking, you could stop reading it

[sarahcsc]

Hi Lorileah,

Sarah is "annoyed", "insulting", "sarcastic", "projecting", "doing therapy..." etc. Strangely, nobody said Sarah is curious.

There are only so much of these I want to read before I feel like closing the thread myself.

I was reminded of a good friend of mine at work who said to me, "Sarah, don't bother explaining yourself, the people who know you don't care, and the people who don't know you wouldn't believe you anyways." I rest my case.

I want to close the thread to protect my reputation but also because I feel responsible for how the thread evolves since I was the one who started it. I had a specific question I wanted answers about, and I will terminate the thread when my question is answered. Closing the thread will keep it focused before it evolves into another intellectual debate which there is already no shortage of.

If anybody would like to continue this discussion, they could start a thread of their own. Simple, no?

It is irresponsible to start a thread on a sensitive topic and let it run without adequate supervision, this is how misunderstandings and factions are created.

Having said that, I will request for this thread to be locked. :)

Thank you everybody.

Love,
S

[NicoleScott]

".....without adequate supervision..."
Ouch. Let's hope the mod who reads that is having a good day.

[Tina_gm]

In before the lock- It was a label which pointed me to this site. I knew what to look for to seek those like myself.

[Stephanie47]

A comment I made on this thread was deemed to be inappropriate because, in part, it may have gone into the realm of intellectual debate. Going back to square #1 Sarah has queried:

"I want to know what motivates a person to seek a label. What are the feelings associated with being labelled? What is there to gain? What is the alternative to labelling (sic)?"

I can only answer for myself. Since this is a site for a large spectrum of men who wear women's clothing, perhaps I will only comment on the clothing issue, and, avoid delving into my heritage as a white, German-Hungarian, Presbyterian, disabled army combat veteran, retired college educated professional, married....

Yes, when I was looking for some on line sites when I finally got a home computer I had to use a term that closely associate me to something on the net. Hence, I did use transvestite (child of the 1950's and 1960's here) and cross dresser. Transgender to me was a term in my mind and most others I associated with as persons trapped in the wrong physical body.

Nobody on this site really cares about all those other descriptive terms. So, for purposes of this site call me what I am....a cross dresser. A cross dresser who has no sexual identity issues.

Sarah asks "What's the alternative to labeling?

I shy away from using a single word to explain who or what I am. So, Sarah has asked and I will reply. I prefer to use a more descriptive phrase: "I am a man who experiences comfort and serenity wearing women's clothing." For this site "cross dresser" is fine. For the world, not so much.

[Lorileah]

".....without adequate supervision..."
Ouch. Let's hope the mod who reads that is having a good day.

I am thank you. Confused but having a good day. This was one of the most civil label threads we have had.

And thus.... closed