Titanium stud stance

[reb.femme]

I posted not a couple of weeks ago that I’d got a new job and hoped I might be able to open up there about my T’ness. To cut a long story short, poorly resourced and perpetual firefighting with no end in sight, I resigned after one week. :sad: Appalling mess and I’ve gone back to contracting…did I ever leave? But this is not the point of this post.

I had a telephone interview today and now have a second interview this week with a legal firm in the fair city of London. It’s paying reasonably well for the position but I’ve made a little principled TG stand. I mentioned to the recruiter that I had ear studs and this was put to the company in question. Apparently, HR have replied that I should not wear the studs for my face to face interview, but a check would be made with senior management to see if it was OK to wear them to work, should I be successful.

Get to the point Becky, get to the point!

Basically, this pee’d me off :Angry3:, so I have sent back a message stating that, ‘a female wouldn’t be asked to remove her ear studs, so why should I not wear them too’? I have therefore declined the offer to interview on equality grounds, which is a fine stance for a law firm to take. I now wait to see if they come back with a positive reply. I know all the crud about professional companies in the city, but this time, for once in my life (thanks to Stevie Wonder) I’m being me and the job can go blow up its rear end :). Here endeth the rant!

Becky

[Gretchen_To_Be]

Hi Becky. A good rant..glad you were able to vent. May I make a suggestion? Rather than being so specific and putting pre-conditions on your employment--which as an employer would be a red flag for me about a potentially contentious hire--why not remove your earrings, and first go to the interview, to determine if you really want to work there? If you do, and they offer you a position which is agreeable in terms of remuneration, etc., you can always ask to review employment policy documents. I assume dress code would be part of any employee manual, and if it is not expressly prohibited for male employees to wear earrings, you will have no issue.

Just a thought...

[alwayshave]

Becky, I'm a partner with a Washington DC law firm, which is probably a comparable to a London based firm. My advice is get the job and then determine the parameters of employment, don't preclude the firm out of hand. Remember it is harder to fire someone once hired then to preclude them up front because of something that doesn't exactly fit societal norms.

[Tracii G]

Sounds kind of trivial to be pissed about studs.
Just take them out get the job and stick them back in and draw a pay check then see what happens.

[Eryn]

My question is, if you truly want to wear your studs at work, why bring up the question at all? Women don't ask what they can wear for their interview and you shouldn't either.

Just wear what you want and let the chips fall where they may.

[Edie Palmer]

Why don't you simply tell them you don't want the job? I doubt that they will even consider you now, since you already started out somewhat combative even before you came in for the interview.

I don't know what it's like in London, but here in the U.S. the economy is still reeling and there are hundreds of applicants for each job -- HR will take any excuse to eliminate a candidate. I've had a terrible time with the interview process myself in spite of my qualifications but I needed a job.

Plus, it's quite ham-handed not to do research on the corporate culture (which is so easy to do on the Internet) and to then basically ask a question about the interview dress code, which, as they see it, is something any applicant should basically know.

And remember, women applicants have do many things they'd rather not do on interviews either. Maybe someone normally favors dangling earrings or a bit more flashy jewelry or clothes -- but they certainly can't do that at an interview, especially at a law firm.

I just don't wear the ear studs at work. And they pay me every couple of weeks.

[reb.femme]

Just to be ultra clear here. i'm not looking for sympathy or empathy. Just putting it out for debate.


... why bring up the question at all? Women don't ask what they can wear for their interview and you shouldn't either.

Quite Eryn. I'm not desperate for the money so I'm in a position to make requests. It's like any job, the employer has the right to request a formal dress code, but I retain the right to question it. If we don't match, I walk away, but I just hate the stiff and starchy requirements.



...since you already started out somewhat combative even before you came in for the interview.

Plus, it's quite ham-handed not to do research on the corporate culture (which is so easy to do on the Internet)...

It isn't combative to question a potential employer, I'm not a drone. Plus, they approached me.

Yes, I did look up their dress code and you make an incorrect assumption about my research abilities, but that's another story. However, it doesn't appear on their website. Rather puts that contention to bed.

I have a degree in law and I've worked for a law firm before. They weren't so [-]far up their own...[/-] rigid.

My point is this and has been discussed in British Courts before. The work relationship these days is one of employer and employee, and not that of master and servant. I've had enough of the 'I have the honour to be sir, your obedient servant' crap from the military. Yes, that did appear on British military applications that had to be approved by an officer.

Becky

[MarciManseau]

Go with your heart, Becky. I'm sure you're very bright and you know what you need in life, so think it through and then give it your best effort. If I were closer, I'd offer you hugs and a shoulder to lean on.

[Pat]

Admiral Grace Hopper said "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission." Or more colloquially, "Don't start none, won't be none." Why bring it up? Just wear your studs to the interview. If there's a problem let it be their problem.

[Krisi]

I certainly would not pass up a great job for an OK job because I wanted to wear ear studs to work. You have to learn to put things in perspective.

A prospective employer is looking to hire people to get the job done and people who will give 100% to the company, at least during working hours. If you are more concerned about your ear studs than doing the job, I doubt they will hire you at this point if they can fond someone else qualified.

Remember, your job isn't just about today and it's not just about this week. At the end of thirty or forty years, the difference between a great job and an OK job will make a big difference in your retirement lifestyle.

[CONSUELO]

I my advice had been sought I would have counseled against making such a stand. Even with tolerant employers and a sympathetic group of colleagues I would always counsel keeping work life and private life as separate as possible.

If your life is as a full-time cross dresser and your entire social circle knows about it then perhaps you can start to take that to work. But I am not sure what point you are tying to make.

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, the form of greeting you quote was once commonly used between ordinary citizens and was just considered polite. Of course it is now archaic but the sentiment of politeness and a certain humility is not.

"I've had enough of the 'I have the honour to be sir, your obedient servant' crap from the military"

[reb.femme]

I appreciate the replies and differing perspectives, but the studs are in to stay. The job requires me to put myself out to get there, so a little leeway on their part I think, is justified.

MarciManseau - Thank you as ever for your support and appreciation that I might actually have something other than air, keeping my ears apart. Who would turn down a free hug, provided you're OK with me keeping the studs in? :heehee:

Jenny-CD, I totally agree about the "let it be their problem", but I like to be upfront with all that I deal with. If they object at interview, I've basically wasted my time and effort. It's a mark of respect from me that I appreciate they may have a code, but if I don't agree, I'll walk away.

Consuelo, humility is fine, but British history is riddled with class warfare and subjugation of the masses. I will not perpetuate that. The First World War was a prime example of an upper class elite throwing brave sheep to the wolves. I'm no class warrior. I took a day of annual leave to attend Margaret Thatcher's state funeral, but I hate being a door mat too.

Anyway, the company has since come back to me and requested I interview tomorrow, with my studs in. In a nutshell, I'm a good and diligent worker, they get the extra mile with me, but I don't tug my forelock. I've spent a day and a half prepping my home system to prove via remote login, that I can do what I say. One picture paints a thousand words. Now it's down to how well or badly I perform on the day and my fellow competitors, of course.


Becky

[MarciManseau]

Becky, I love studs... of all kinds :) So keep 'em in and flash them. Never hide who you are.

Wish I was there to help you pick out a cute outfit, then help you get dressed. That's always fun for us, trying on different outfits with a friend there to make suggestion.

[Abbey11]

Hi Becky, stand by your principles and good luck with the interview x

[reb.femme]

Thanks Abbey. I really appreciate that.

Suit and tie I'm afraid Marcie...not so colourful. I posted a pic of me in business attire in the Boy/Girl section a little while ago. That's how I'll be tomorrow.


Becky

[Lorileah]

A prospective employer is looking to hire people to get the job done and people who will give 100% to the company, at least during working hours.
I think you just gave Becky a base. She could get the job done, she could give 100%. The ear studs are non-important to that. Add if the women at same business are allowed certain jewelry the men (and this gets back to the post about the US because title IX basically says, if men can women can and vice versa) should be allowed the same privilege. Unless the accouterments or clothing present a dangerous situation or distract from the job, they should be allowed. Thus during WWII women got to dress in slacks and coveralls.

Not naive enough to say she should guaranteed the job, we all know that there are ways an employer can skirt certain laws, but equality is equality. If the men must remove earrings, women should be required also

[Jenniferathome]

Becky, I'm more surprised that you even mentioned it. If wearing your earrings is "must have" for you, just wear them into the interview. If you are being graded on your appearance, you don;t want that job anyway. If you are being graded on your skill, the ear rings won't matter. It is clear discrimination to make one rule for one sex but it is very common. In one company I was at, men were not allowed to wear shorts or open toed shoes. The women, of course were allowed. The reason was kind of comical. HR told me that women's fashion dictated that those be allowed but men's did not. At the end of the day, I think it was because in a male dominated workplace such as mine, men liked looking at women's legs.

[reb.femme]

I hear the clear bells ringing out, thank you Lorileah and Jennifer. I wasn't trying to be a smart @r5e or whatever, it just seems so minimal a display, that I don't really want to work for people like that. There are other jobs, but as Lorileah said, "equality is equality"...apparently :heehee:. I hated the way the HR department skirted round the issue, i.e. attend the face to face without the studs and we'll see if we can allow them afterwards.

When I was a kid, my mum always use to say I'll see", when any of 'us kids' made a request for money or something. That answer invariably meant no.

I guess it's the hairy toes in sandals too Jennifer, but I definitely concur on the sexist, get the women in skimpy clothes, keep the men wearing shirts and ties mentality.

Becky

[Julia1984]

Becky - youre playing the wrong game. For the right reasons, no doubt, but that doesnt mean its the right tactic. As a senior lawyer, who does recruitment, i would be immediately unimpressed by someone who sought to put preconditions on the job. And this wasnt even the law firm, but the consultant, right? Go to the interview; get the job (if you merit it); then engage with their LGBT policy - if they are a half decent firm then they will have one. Revolution from within, my friend, as someone once said - though it ended quite badly for him as I recall.

[Eryn]

On the surface, a firm can be quite progressive, but at the point of hiring they can be as discriminatory as they like. They can always find a legitimate reason to hire Candidate B rather than Candidate A, even if the real reason is highly illegal.

So, it comes down to wearing the studs or not. Asking permission first or setting preconditions will pretty much give you the image of either being indecisive or a potential troublemaker, neither of which will get you hired.

Personally, my approach would be not to wear them to the interview. After you are hired and have made a niche for yourself you can wear them.

[jemima_bates]

Good luck with the interview Becky.

Maybe I'm in cloud cuckoo land, but it would've never even crossed my mind to bring it up. Studs seem to be so common these days (I'm assuming you're not blinging it up like a Premier League primadonna?!) that I'm not sure I'd even give it a second thought if a guy turned up for an interview with me wearing them.

Jemima
x

[reb.femme]

...So, it comes down to wearing the studs or not. Asking permission first or setting preconditions will pretty much give you the image of either being indecisive or a potential troublemaker, neither of which will get you hired....

I hear what you are saying Eryn, but asking ahead of time is showing that you have a brain and not making assumptions. Why should I not wear them? For some old-hat style of dress code? Far from showing an indecisive character, it shows that i think and don't presume. Employment is a two-way deal, if I don't like them, I walk.

I don't get why so many seem to advocate lying prostrate in front of a potential employer. We obviously have a very different culture toward employers/employees in the UK. I wish one of our well known UK members here would give her perspective, as she has high level experience. You know who you are Miss :heehee:. I'm happy to engage a company on an intellectual level and i hope they would offer the courtesy in return. If not, i walk...again.

Becky

[MarciManseau]

Becky has the situation totally in hand. She knows her own style and her value to any potential employer. I'm sure you'll do fine in any interview. Just smile and be who you are.

[Sarasometimes]

Good luck, i hope you end up with a decision to make after they make an offer. You may find that the recruiter was the wishywashy one not the law firm.

[Shelly Preston]

Hi Becky

Congratulations on making a stand.

I think you may have a better than average chance because of two things.

1. They came looking for you.
2. you have shown them you wont be pushed around.

Good Luck with the inteview

[Eryn]

...We obviously have a very different culture toward employers/employees in the UK....

That is certain, and I've even experienced some of it on this forum. UK management style, from a US perspective, seems much more autocratic and demanding of deference than we are used to.

We term it "My way, or the highway!" and it makes for a very unpleasant work environment.

I agree with Shelly about your chances!

[reb.femme]

That is certain, and I've even experienced some of it on this forum. UK management style, from a US perspective, seems much more autocratic and demanding of deference than we are used to...

Can't offer an opinion on that, as I've never worked in the US, so I'll go with your experience.

Well, I've had my interview and now I await the final judgement. Got a director to meet, even if I'm offered anything at this point. It would be easier to become Prime Minister and I'm just waiting for the "jumping through hoops of fire" requirement :heehee:. Two guys who should be poker players if they aren't already, not a clue how it went though.

Thanks to everyone for their input though.

Becky