Is being able to pass going too far?

[Lyla]

At what point does the desire to pass as a woman start to effect your ability to be seen as a man by society? I've seen some girls on here that if I passed on the street it would never cross my mind that they are not women. But when does the long hair, arched eyebrows, shaved body, curves (if not forms/padding), and feminine mannerisms start to draw attention when in male mode?

[Robin414]

I think that's a great post Lyla, there are many 'getnuine' femme attributes that are tough to hide in guy mode...I guess I'd say 'tough' isn't 'impossible'...I just expend a little more energy at it myself 😉

[Eryn]

That's an excellent question. I don't think that there is any one point because it depends upon the perceptions of the observer. For a long time I've dressed increasingly androgynously around my local area. Mimi and I would go to breakfast with old friends at a place we've patronized for decades and I am consistently gendered male. We'll then go to the mall shopping and I'll be consistently gendered female with no change in clothing or addition of makeup.

Beauty and femininity are both in the eye of the beholder.

[sometimes_miss]

But when does the long hair, arched eyebrows, shaved body, curves (if not forms/padding), and feminine mannerisms start to draw attention when in male mode?
Almost immediately. But most people don't comment on it, they just assume you're gay. Again, most in western societies assume a live and let live attitude towards other people.

[pamela7]

do you want your cake, or do you want to eat it?

[Tracii G]

Pam makes a good point I think.
Are you afraid to make small changes over time?
Too worried people will assume you are gay?
Worried you will lose your man card?

[Marcelle]

Hi Lyla,

I think it is really going to depend on a few factors, how feminine you look and location. Yes, before I went full time and I began to take steps to deal with certain aspects of my visage (facial hair, hair, eyebrows), the longer my hair got, the thinner my eyebrows got and the more my beard disappeared . . . people noticed (especially those who had not seen me in some time). However, people who I did not know either thought I was androgynous or just a girly guy but coming from a larger city with liberal leanings, nobody really batted an eye. To be honest there a lots of "pretty" men out there who are not TG they are just pretty, long lush hair, full lips, little facial hair, thin brows, slight frames . . . genetics are a funny thing.

Now if you are asking this question for personal reasons my recommendation is take things slowly as people who are around you a lot are less likely to notice small changes over time. For example shape your eyebrows over a span of a few months and find a common ground where they are curved and arched but can still pass as guy (some guys do have naturally arched eyebrows). Hair takes time to grow and when it does, get an androgynous cut which you can style super girly if you want or just andro guy. Lots of men shave their body hair and most people won't bat an eye. WRT curves . . . well . . . unless genetics have been kind and given you female shaped body, a slight fit "male" frame is the best anyone can achieve. Feminine mannerisms are less likely to creep into your day to day mannerisms as a guy unless you spend an inordinate amount dressed and presenting as a woman.

Cheers

Marcelle

[Claire Cook]

Interesting thread. For me trying to separate my male and female sides has led to a bit of confusion on my part, so maybe I am trying to meld myself into "me" no matter what I am wearing. My ears are pierced, legs and arms shaved, I have my brows done and generally wear clear nail polish all of the time, but as Marcelle notes most people don't notice. I'm treated as male most of the time (since I wear male clothes most of the time), but am generally treated as female when I present female. (Sometimes folks who meet me en femme are surprised to find out that I am not a GG, so I guess I pass at least occasionally.) I probably use some feminine gestures all of the time, and that feels natural, but I've never had negative comments.

Once in a while in guy mode I'll get addressed as "ma'am". They'll apologize, but I take it as a compliment. :battingeyelashes: Does it affect my "guy card"? Nope, it's me.

[Rogina B]

It all comes down to being comfortable in your own skin.

[Eva Skarlatova]

Hmmm, great question. All these features or even some of them could draw attention. Yes - of society. It depends on which society. Basically in more developed countries society is open minded, of course even there you could live in a small and conservative town....But most important is how you are accepted by the people around you - your friends, colleagues and of course your SO. I try very carefuly to comply with the borders imposed by my wife and to be viewed as a men in her eyes. In spite of my CD. The short answer of your question is that it depends on the stage of development of society, in broad and local meaning....

[CarlaWestin]

A co-worker noticed that I was wearing clear nail polish. I was glad she was the only one that noticed but, she told me that she was just the only one to ask me about it.
Busted, I explained that my nails were prone to cracking.

[Sara Jessica]

Ahhhhh, the cumulative effect of these minor modifications which feeds into the "elephant in my room" theory. Individually, these things don't amount to much. However...

long hair (check...or at least it used to be. Now it is just longer on top and in the front which is even more tricky to guy-up when necessary-90% of the time)

arched eyebrows (check)

shaved body (check)

curves (I can't help this one but "check")

feminine mannerisms (half-check, sometimes hard to control)

As I have pointed out before to the 24/7-show-off-your-pedicure contingent, if I were to do that, the elephant in my room starts singing show tunes, making her impossible to conceal.

So yes, there is much credibility to the point you are making.

[Amanda M]

It is strange. If you saw me in male mode, there are no - as far as I can see - any obvious clues to the fact that I am a CD. And yet, lots of GGs with whom I am acquainted make remarks like " Are you buying a dress for the Xmas dinner" or, "You know, I thing lilac would really look good with your skin tone". Am I missing something here?

[michelleddg]

Ahhhhh, the cumulative effect of these minor modifications which feeds into the "elephant in my room" theory.

So yes, there is much credibility to the point you are making.

Yuppers...

I have my hair down to my bra strap, and I color it. However, it's boy hair - one length, no highlights, always in a pony. My stock answer is that I was corporate my entire professional life and now I'm free.

I have neatly trimmed eyebrows. I believe there are brows that work both in dude and chick modes, and mine are blocked by my glasses anyway.

I currently have no hair from the scalp down. I don't hide it, and have never had a comment.

When a dressing opportunity is forthcoming I let my fingernails grow beyond what most people would consider to be tolerance.

However...

I shave only every few days so generally have the facial hair working.

I'm rather the dude in my interests and pursuits.

I'm rather the dude in mannerisms et al.

Bottom line is that I feel I'm pushing the boundaries a bit and a small elephant is following me around, but I have no direct evidence others see the elephant. Most importantly, my wife is comfortable where I'm at. I'm in a good place.

Hugs, Michelle

[Pat]

At what point does the desire to pass as a woman start to effect your ability to be seen as a man by society?

Questions like this always seem too global to me. They're asked as if there's one correct answer when in fact presentation is a personal choice that each of us makes, consciously or unconsciously every day. It's too much when it's too much for you. You have to allow others to make the call for themselves.

[Jenniferathome]

Ahhhhh, the cumulative effect of these minor modifications which feeds into the "elephant in my room" theory. Individually, these things don't amount to much. However...

i don't buy into this for the simple reason that you are asking a normal to leap into the cross dresser world. Your typical normal doesn't even have that in their lexicon. I think "metrosexual" is more likely or even "hipster."

[suchacutie]

This must certainly depend on one's goals. Those who wish to be androgynous are likely quite pleased that the gender lines become blurred. From my perspective I see my gendered selves as very separate, virtually two rather different people. Even when I'm in the process of transitioning from one to the other I don't care to interact with anyone because at that point I'm not sure who I am. So, yes, my eyebrows are neat and have a little arch, but in fact if I didn't do something with them they would be incredibly wide and cover the entire space from outside my eyes through the "unibrow" mode. My nails do crack, peel, and delaminate, so I do wear matte-finish "polish" to keep them from self destructing. The body movements of my two gendered selves is completely different, as is voice, word usage, and attitude.

As I'm writing this it occurs to me that since Tina has been around, my male self is actually a bit more "male" in that it isn't the mix of my two selves anymore. I'm pretty sure I'm a bit more "male" now when presenting in that mode, tidy eyebrows and all.

[Sara Jessica]

i don't buy into this for the simple reason that you are asking a normal to leap into the cross dresser world. Your typical normal doesn't even have that in their lexicon. I think "metrosexual" is more likely or even "hipster."

I'm not saying that TG is a forgone conclusion. Instead, it is the compounding of the body/appearance modifications that increase the likelihood of such a conclusion.

I think the Jenner effect increases this as well because the world witnessed the pre-transition appearance changes and might be more in tune with observing this in others in their own worlds.

When my hair when halfway down my back, I know this perplexed people. Add in the other stuff and who knows what some people were thinking...if anything as I fully acknowledge as well.

[xNicolex]

It can have a knock on effect on guy mode for me too if I was wearing nails the night before and sometimes they are hard to get off the glue is left behind. Or if your makeup wasn't removed properly or if you underdress bend over and forget your wearing a thong (because that has happened to me :o) there are alot of things that our fem selves can photocopy onto our male selves and sometimes keeping the two totally separate is difficult.

[ReineD]

For just long hair, long fingernails, thinner eyebrows, hair-free arms & legs, I agree with Jennifer. Most people don't think CD/TG/TS right off the bat, simply because they don't see many people in their day-to-day lives who visibly and purposely cross the gender presentation barriers. So the likely self-explanation might be "gay", "metrosexual", "quirky", "weird", etc, if anything. But ... add femmy earrings (not studs), nail polish and visible makeup, and it might occur to some people (not all) that the person in front of them may be CD/TG/TS or whatever label is in their vocabulary if they indeed are aware of such labels. For example, given my exposure to this community I'd have a pretty good idea but I doubt my neighbor would.

I should think that a curvy body shape wouldn't raise any questions, even with long hair, long fingernails, and thinner eyebrows. Lots of overweight men have bigger behinds, gynecomastia, etc, and the first thing that comes to mind is not CD/TG/TS. But, if you put breasts on an otherwise trim male especially with a discernible bra strap, then it will raise eyebrows.

If there are distinctly female clothes, i.e. a pink hoodie with a higher-neck Tshirt, skinny jeans and women's flats, then that can also be a question mark but even then the self-explanation might be "gay" if CDs/TGs/TSs are completely off the onlooker's radar.

So IMO it depends on both, the number of cues that are present all at once and that include makeup and visibly femmy casual clothes, and the onlooker's familiarity with people in this community.

As to mannerisms, I think that most people would put that down to "gay".

[Sara Jessica]

I get it that in these pages we are hyper-sensitive to both terminology and seeing ourselves (our our SO's) in others. This goes above and beyond what the average Muggle is likely to perceive. But I will defend my theory simply because I lived that dream for several years. Until (if & when) the day comes that I'm out to more than my wife, it'll remain a theory. The test of the theory is when others feel they are able to say "I saw the signs", "I knew all along", etc. Until then, it remains a theory.

I have committed to being honest if I am ever called out. I have had a number of comments circle the proverbial drain but none have hit the bullseye so I have remained stealthy in my replies.

Back to my Jenner example, I have said before that in guy mode I look like s*#@ with long hair in a pony. Just like IMHO that Jenner (pre-transition) looked pretty silly with long hair. I cut mine off before Jenner's pre-transition speculation-into-reality days but I cannot help but wonder what my peers are now thinking with respect to the trans experience everyone has witnessed and whether they've seen it before. The hair, the eyebrows, the lack of body fur...all of this emerging on someone who one was previously perceived as 1000% guy/husband/father/businessman/etc. with none of these traits being particularly evident.

This is pretty much why I'm not all that interested in adding visible nail polish, makeup (although I marinate my face in skin care daily and have been called out for that) and/or clothing. (Did I tell you about my every day girl jeans???) I don't really need to pile onto the perceptions that may or may not be out there.

In other words, sometimes putting these changes into context helps the theory to make a little more sense.

[phylis anne]

As an interesting observation ,I was stationed in the philines and thailand as well ,the thais had their lady boys and the philipinnes had their billy boys ,fast forward many years to alaska in the fisheries trade and many of the phillipinos there started first with the eyebrows all trimmed and sculpted , then there was the unisex type top in girls colors then the shoulder bag followed by the swish in the walk ,a bit of a shock to those who were unknowing but they are harmless and in a community of their own there

[suzanne]

What's wrong, or "too far" with just being yourself? Ultimately, that's what we're all aiming for. To be ourselves without anyone perceiving "too much" of anything. Sculpted eyebrows, makeup, skirt and heels? So what? That's just (insert name) being (re-insert name). Next topic. Oh BTW, that's actually a great look (insert name once more) put together; I don't care whether that's a woman or dude in a dress.

Maybe I'm reaching too far here. For now. I think in this respect we are in the same place gays and lesbians were twenty years ago, fighting to claim a place of respect in the world. I want to claim the same wardrobe freedom women have. To express my own personal style. Or not.

[Sara Jessica]

Our community is nowhere near where the LGB community was because part-timers generally are not making their presence known socially. I'm not seeing "dude in a dress" (as you put it) as a social movement any time soon. But if that works for you, more power to you. Stake your claim as you see fit, there won't be so many behind you in support.

[TrishaTX]

I am stuck trying to figure out how much of my leg hair to take off lol...I do not have these issues at this point. I am a guy most of the time and Trisha once or twice a month. I am not sure it is enough but it is way better than Hiding it for me. She supports this amount of time now, maybe a bit more over time

[GenieGirl]

I guess I am a good example of this. Just yesterday my mom came into town to visit. I visited her as her "son". As I was walking through the shopping area I got a direct face to face from a cute girl with wild colored hair. She gave me the biggest smile. Probably because I look like her androgynous type. She was very cute. Later on in the day with my mom we were greeted by a SA at a home interior store. Greeted us both as women. I just smile and keep quiet. Once I talk to the lady she sees her wrong and never mention her greeting me as a her. I am very used to that over the past few years. Later after she leaves my mom comments, this is why you need to cut your hair so people don't think you are a girl! I just smile.

Later on that night Igo out to the bar with my ex gf. Again greeted by a female bartender as a girl in guy mode. I just look at her and smile like always when I am often identified as a girl when dressed as a guy. She laughs. Story of my life.

[CathyWallace]

I wish I could pass. Since I crossdress 100% of the time, it would certainly be less stressful for those I encounter.

[Krisi]

If you live in the city and work and play with men who are neat and well groomed, many of the things you mentioned would pass as "well groomed" or "metrosexual".

If you live in a more rural area and work and play with people who work with their hands, you will stick out and be assumed to be gay.

You will have to judge for yourself what you can and cannot get away with. The feminine mannerisms are something you should learn to turn on and off.

[Rhonda Jean]

There's no answer to that question, but it begs for discussion. I could write a thesis, but I'll resist.

When I look at the Boy Mode VS. Girl Mode pics on here I'm always amazed! Of course, those are mostly just head shots, so it might be different in real life, but still... In boy mode, some show no trace of female, but turn into stunning women! Others I think, yeah, I could spot her in boy mode.

When I was in therapy I was asked how often I was misgendered and how did it make me feel. I loved it! Looking further into it, I had to admit that that in itself was an element of crossdressing that I really enjoyed. Not everybody does. The fallacy is that I could convince myself that work, friends, or family would either not notice or wouldn't care. On the other hand I wanted everybody else to notice. That's just part of my twisted wiring. I don't think we are any judge at all of what is too far when it comes to our self evaluation. It can't be situational, although some of us are pretty good at convincing ourselves it is.

This is, and has always been, the most problematic aspect of my own gender dysphoria. In all other aspects of my life I'm logical, realistic, and thoughtful. That all goes out the window when it comes to this exact thing, and always has. I could absolutely convince myself that nobody throughout the day at work thinks there's anything askew, while thrilling because the waitress at lunch called me ma'am. I want it both ways.

I don't get misgendered since I cut my hair. If I apply a little self-analysis, that probably has something to do with why I carry a purse and wear nail polish in boy mode. I miss that aspect of it, even though it was the most problematic aspect.