Conversation with a rude person - two days of being very sad

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

I don't normally like to post threads about sad aspects of my life but, sometimes the cathartic release of just writing words can help . . . so here it goes.

Last Friday we had a section luncheon. I am fully aware while most accept me for who I am, there are a few hold outs who treat me like I have Ebola . . . I mean they physically see me walking their way, turn heel and walk as quickly away from me as possible. There is one such person who just started working in my section (a subordinate) who is particularly rude in her interactions (when she has to - not my direct subordinate, just subordinate in rank), sneers at me in the gym as though I was some bit of mold on the wall daring to be present and, does the hushed whisper with her friend whenever I walk by her cubicle (yes I could just be being paranoid). Anyway, for these types of folks I just let them be, their opinion and all that and so long as they are not being confrontational . . . to each their own. So back to the luncheon . . . I was at table with some friends and they had just left when I saw her walking my way. I thought "Hmm . . . wonder what this is all about". She walked up and asked if she could sit and I indicated she could. Now we had a long protracted discussion on many subjects but I won't bore you with the details only suffice to say, I gave her a privileged platform which means I won't use what she said against her. Coles Notes version on what is salient to this post:

In a nutshell, she doesn't get me. Why do I want to pretend to be a woman? I'll never be one, I look like a joke (in her opinion) and if I think I am pretty, good looking, average, fair, remotely feminine . . .wrong. I look like a guy wearing makeup and wig, sporting girl clothes that look silly on me. In the gym I look ridiculous (again in her opinion) wearing sports gear designed for women and why do I wear a sports bra when I clearly have nothing up top and Lycra shorts look gay on men. I should be ashamed of myself as real men don't act like this and if I were her husband she would have divorced me long ago as she likes men, not feminine looking boys who want to play dress-up. As well, she feels insulted that I walk around pretending to be a woman when I will never know what it means to be one. I will never give birth, never have menstrual issues or know love like only a woman can. In her opinion, people like me are only making fun of women and should be charged with harassment. Oh, and I am a disgrace to the uniform and should be kicked out of the military

:eek: . . . Now that was a lot to digest. I let her have her say and confirmed that while what she said could be construed as harassment on her part, I will abide by the "privileged platform" and not bring this diatribe crap to the attention of higher. However, as I now know her true feelings if she even looks sideways at me in so much as a remotely rude way, I will take steps to institute a harassment complaint against her. Anyway, I went through the whole gambit of "not pretending to be a woman but I am a woman". Yes my physiology is male and while I may look ridiculous to her, I don't need her permission be who I need to be. While I may be "butt ugly" and ridiculous looking on the outside, I would rather that than be the dark hole of misery and ugliness on the inside that she is. It got very bad and it was the first time in a long time I really felt I was going to loose it as I can enter a very dark place due to my past training. So, I took a deep breath got up and was about to leave when I saw that smug smile on her face like she won some victory . . . so I leaned close and whispered . . . "BTW I have seen you in the gym and at least I can pull off Lycra shorts which is more than I can say for you" . . . okay a bit over the top and bitc** on my part but I was so mad I was vibrating.

So I left never intending to let this bother me again . . . out of my mind . . . move on with life. At least that is what I thought until I visited the bathroom and stood staring at myself in the mirror, make-up starting to wane with the passing of day and then I saw "him" staring back at me like some obscene vision caked in ridiculous make-up, an interloper, fraud, fake. Don't get me wrong I am still a woman and I have never batted an eye at my reflection other than "these are the genetics dealt me but I am still a woman". However, this time I was saddened by what I saw, upset that I will never be pretty, will never look like a woman (without extensive surgery). I could see the remaining vestiges of my beard starting to bleed through in spots which are thicker with foundation than other spots on my face . . . I could feel "him" behind my eyes laughing at me and I wanted to cry (well, I did much to the chagrin of my already failing make-up). Luckily I just had to get in the car and go home. I talked about it with my wife and she tried to console me as best she could . . . "don't let it bother you" "she's a bit** and not worth making you sad" . . . bless her my wife :) . . . so I just smiled and said you are right and put on a happy visage and continued with the evening. I went to sleep troubled as this was really bothering me.

I woke up the next day, hoping to have shaken things off. Now, when I am at home I just wear comfortable clothing (shorts/top) and while I will shave, I don't do make-up (unless I am planning to go out in public) nor do I wear a wig. I just exists as a woman being comfortable. I was still upset so I though a nice long run on the treadmill would help so I put on my running clothes (yes the dreaded Lycra shorts) and ran for an hour and half. When I finished I went up to shower and stood looking at myself in the mirror. Yep . . . all guy in girl running clothes. My hair is growing out but it is taking time (damn bangs) not to mention I am dealing with a very pronounced widow's peak, not hair loss but genetic and no amount of transplants can help as there is nothing for them to bite into (already checked on that). I have to wait until my bangs are long enough to style around the peak. So I looked at myself, shabby hair, Homer Simpson goatee area which just won't let go (damn Northern European ancestors), tired skin, male facial features . . . goodness I was one ugly girl . . . then I cried again and again. I have not cried that hard since I accepted who I was and what it meant. The rest of the day was spent wallowing in self pity and trying to act like all was well. I failed dismally . . . my wife picked up on my sadness quite easily. We talked and while it helped to have her support and understanding, I was still blue.

It is today and I am still in a funk. I am not looking forward to tomorrow and exposing my ugly mug to the world. I know I will get over it as I have had similar feelings early in my public presentations but not quite as deep as this one. Don't get me wrong, I am not thinking "dark thoughts" I am just sad that I will never truly be pretty. For personal/medical reasons, surgery and HRT are not an option for me. I still like my body as it is and while it may scream male, I am small framed for man (5'6" 142lbs) so I can still pull of a very fit female form albeit slim hipped and nothing up top. However, right now I cannot even bear to look at my face in the mirror because all I can see is "him" laughing at me. I know it will get better . . . well at least I hope it will.

Thanks for listening.

Cheers

Marcelle

[Carlene]

Your encounter makes me sad. I can offer no advice, but I would like you to know that your attitude toward others and life in general has given many of us hope. Marcelle, you are a very special person, with a beauty inside and out.

😌 Carlene

[ErikaS]

I know that you are a special lady and each day your confidence helps you and others to see the true women in you and not "him". You are making history just by being your true self. Keep strong.

Erika

[mykell]

im sorry this happened marcelle,

this person may have won the genetic lottery by having a shapely body and looking pretty, but by no means does that or having a monthly and procreation a woman make, as for her snide and condescending attitude about how you present to the world, her actions were very much less than feminine, more typical of a bore or bully in high school.....your beautiful soul shines through to the outside unlike hers....

ive PMed you a photo i used in another thread of Donatello Versache,
a women who we would assume had the world at her command,
yet she looks tattered and miserable,
maybe your coworker is this way deep down and felt the need to redirect her misery toward yourself.....
keep your chin up, your a lovey soul.....

[Kaitlyn Michele]

of the many adages and thoughts about transition (some of them cliched and most of them helpful), the one that springs to mind is ups and downs...lots of big ups and big downs are very common.

what you are going through is hugely powerful and frankly most people will not be able to relate even if most are willing to live and let live....

I'm sorry you went through that with this woman,

you have alot of strength and your good nature is evident... and you are going to have to rely on those things in the next period of time and i have no doubt you will start to truly feel better...

the way you approach your home life is a good sign that you are thoughtful, realistic and focused on what matters
but you were faced with a strong challenge ....you met the challenge, now you are recovering.... i hope you realize what you are doing is reallly really hard, its really courageous and its about you ...

[Giselle(Oshawa)]

Marcelle all i can say is she has a incurable illness "ignorance"!
don't let this get you down you are a much better person than
she is and the service you have given to our country gives you
the right to walk anywhere with your head held up high.

[Suzanne F]

Marcelle,
That woman cannot take away the immeasurable freedom that you have claimed for yourself! She can't dampen the joy that you carry inside from coming out on the other side of this struggle. You have become a symbol of hope for so many women here. I know many times I have said to myself if Marcelle can do what she is doing I can do what I have to do when facing the world. I often brag about my friend who came out in the Canadian military. She has a sickness in her that can't be fixed and is ugly, the need to hurt people different than her. She has to live with that darkness every day. You on the other hand know the true peace that comes with living an authentic life. I am always so proud to know you!
Love
Suzanne

[wanagione]

Marcelle, I'm sorry this has upset you. I admire you very much. Please don't let the opinion of one small person invade and steel your happiness. She sounds like a very sad person. She said that if she was married to you she would leave you, well, you have a wife that is standing buy you, you have have so many good things. Hang in there!!
Amy

[PretzelGirl]

I am glad you posted this. Sometimes the best way to deal with the negativity of life is to put it out there. If we can completely identify it, it all becomes clearer to us and then our minds can work on it.

Your wife is a gem! That is true love in action.

Other than that, I don't want to talk about her. You lay it out and you let it go. You really rock Marcelle and I wish this episode will pass quickly for you to never be seen again.

[Donnagirl]

Marcelle,

I think I can understand what you're up against, just don't make the mistake I did. I'm a few weeks away from returning to work after reacting badly to a similar experience. (I'll write about that soon in a seperate thread.) Your words reveal a weankness I'm sure many of us suffer, I'm certainly one, that the facade of confidence, strength and self acceptance is remarkably thin and fragile. Probably more so for individuals who've lived that life where negative emotions are surpressed to such an extend they are almost forgotten and so much of life is a battle of bulls*** and bravado in an endless contest to be the hardest, fittest, strongest...

I know there's not much I can say to help, so much of your post being that cathartic release but I have had some sage counsel from a few people I trust. The comments you received hit home so well because they targeted your real vulnerabilities, your own self doubt and inability (or inexperience) to respond in the correct manner.

For the last few decades I'm sure you gave and received insults, put downs and verbal attacks of such a nature, to the inexperienced looking in it would be quite a shock. It's just comes with the territory, almost a necessary part of the continual training process. But those you could handle, ignore or laugh off. There was always a worse comment the throw back. Sadly, I think this disarmed us for coping with the real thing, comments specifically chosen and uttered to cause distress and harm. And there are some women who are particularly skilled in vicious delivery. You need to learn a whole new skill set for defence and counter strike, or at least a break contact and tactical withdrawal.

Being 'bitchy' is no good, getting into a shouting contest is useless, trying to reason with them only opens you up to further attack. You need to use the strategies the girls have been using, learned I'm sure in the earliest days of school... First, actually agree with the comments, then turn them around with extra barbs of cynical derision homing in on any obvious (or perceived) flaws. Obviously there were a lot more words, but in brief, I've agreed, yes I've been known to dress like a s**t, but returned fire by wishing I could follow her example in clothing but with her terrible weight problem, they don't make clothes in her limited style small enough for my frame. Telling her then that it was such a shame that society doesn't recognise the morbidly obese as attractive was enough for her to beat a hasty retreat in some distress. And this woman wasn't particularly overweight, but she was always trying the latest diet fads and complaining about gaining a few pounds after a period of leave - easy target :-)

It takes practice and a quick wit, but it does work... I'm sure you'll master it.

Stay strong...

Donna

[arbon]

So sorry you had that experience ��

[Jennifer-GWN]

Marcelle;

I feel for you Marcelle. As we all know we can't expect everyone to come to our side of support and understanding. This is person clearly got to you to the core even though I'm guessing their quite insignificant but there's an underlying sense that you might be able to sway her opinion of you. Noble as it is some will just be that way and nothing we can do about it but expect at least the professional respect that is due.

I'm sorry this has impacted you to the degree it has yes indeed. You've been a pillar of strength on so many levels. Take stock and regroup. You'll be fine. I love the degree of support you get from your wife which is heart warming.

These are skirmishes not defeats.

At your side, always open to a call.

Chin up kiddo. Cheers... Jennifer

[susie evans]

well that's to bad for her you can't cure STUPID

HUG;S Susie

[GretchenJ]

Hi Marcelle,

First and foremost, I am very sorry for the actions of someone whom you should not take stock of, nor harden your feelings towards yourself. Take it for what it was, someone who is a very cruel and bitter person, of whom you provided an open forum to vent her feelings and who took that opportunity not to do it in an inquisitive or objective manner, but rather in a cruel, cutting and nasty way.

Take heart, the person would in all likelihood would have the same confrontation with a homosexual, a GG who may be dressing "inappropriate" to her approval, someone whose religious or political views did not meet her approval, etc.

Make a personal inventory of all those that have been positive towards you and your transition, or those that have treated you no different before you decided to go full time. People like this want you to question what you are doing, or what you look like, do not let them get inside your head like that , that's what she wanted to do, as evident by her smirk at the end of diatribe, do not let her win!

if what she is saying we're true, then the female coworkers would not have accepted you into there group, nor invited yo to their chocolate club some time back.

also be blessed that when you have days like this ( and I am afraid that there may be other days like this), be assured that these will be the exception, not the rule, and confrontations like this will only make you stronger, and that the end of the day, you come home to a wonderful wife and with that a great support system.

Also be assured that there are people here that are always giving you well wishes, support and a shoulder whenever you need one.

[Heidi Stevens]

What a bummer, Marcelle! I'm so sorry you had to have an ignorant bully try and "improve the world by ridding it of people like you". Those type folks think they are doing front line battles to impress others that think like them. They are all nothing but cowards who use hate, ridicule, vitriol, and dogma to improve things to "their standards". When in fact it isolates them and puts them in a very negative light once someone is brave enough to stand up to them.

This Is why I love this forum. You can come here and discuss your problems with an open attitude and know you'll get a sympathetic ear and good advice. Your wife is one fine person! I wish every one was like her. But guess what, I know that will never happen, so I'm not going to push my ideals on them. You have to live in a world of all kinds. As long as you're not trying to force someone to live the way you want them to live, right on brother! But there are ways to tell someone of your objections with out being rude about it. This woman is just one that never learned that skill. I respect you for remaining polite during the encounter and showing her that being a bully will get nowhere with you.

So feel good about yourself. Don't beat yourself up over this and spring back on Monday with a great attitude and the confidence you know is there. She's had her say, now show her she's dead wrong.

[Eryn]

Dear Marcelle,

You cannot afford the luxury of giving your life energy to people who try to make themselves feel better by making you feel worse. It is better to choose to associate with those who support you and help you feel good about yourself and ignore the others as much as possible.

I'm going through the same sort of experience. I'm looking into the mirror or at photos and sometimes seeing a guy look back at me. Still, with time, that guy is stepping into the background and my real self is coming through. I don't see "man" or "woman." I see me, and that person is expressing herself as she wishes.

You're living an authentic life and it's time for you to be thinking authentically all the time. That bigoted woman would be appalled if someone questioned her femininity and you shouldn't take it lightly either. No, you'll never be a perfect female form, but your body has good features and bad features, just like any GG. Celebrate the good, ignore what you can't change.

You mentioned shaving. May I suggest investigating electrolysis? For me, getting rid of my beard shadow was the single best thing I've done for my self-image and outlook. Not having a daily "punishment" for having too much testosterone was very liberating. Your skin will look better and the removal of the dense hair follicles around the mouth restores it to a more feminine appearance. Spending a couple of hours of quality time every week with a person who understands and accepts you is also a plus.

Also, you mentioned that HRT is out for health reasons. I wouldn't give up on it. Get several opinions. Some practitioners, despite medical ethics, discourage HRT because of their personal beliefs. The easiest way to do this is to cite existing health issues.

I hope that this and the other responses help. I admire what you have been doing and think that, with your perseverance, you will do very well.

[MsVal]

Oh Marcelle,

You were hurt by her candid remarks, weren't you? They stung as she drove her knife of bitter words into your lingering insecurities; she validated your self doubts. In the end, you were left to stumble home and treat your wounds. She had no right, and she had every right to say the things that she did, and you will be better off for hearing them. I give her credit for her sincerity and the courage it took to confront a superior officer.

I want to use the analogy of one that is learning an athletic skill such as self-defense. The first few lessons would likely be clumsy and painful as the instructor presents a barrage of challenges. Skill and endurance will come later. I see that you've been taking lessons, Marcelle.

(I like the new name, Isha. When did you get it changed? I ought to check in more frequently.)

Best wishes
MsVal

[Dawn cd]

While some of us may never look truly feminine, it is worse to be disfigured by intolerance and cruelty. Your encounter makes me wonder which of you was beautiful and which was ugly?

[Bria]

Marcelle, I'm sorry that you are having a hard time putting this episode behind you, but I do understand. In the past I have had encounters (none so vile as your experience) when I have though later that I should have said x, or I should have said y, but I think the best approach is to remember the source, in this case a small minded person who had to use belittling you to bolster her own self image (why does this sound like the political campaigns?).

I know that you have the strength of character to over come this verbal attack. I'm also sure that you know that all of us on the forum hold you in the highest regard and this incident will in no way change that opinion. Stay on the high road, don't stoop to her level.

Hugs, Bria

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Marcelle,
Reading your post really made me feel for you, and I'm sorry you
experienced this at your work place. Future encounters with this woman
are bound to be tense to say the least.
In the past, you've seemed to be the type that would try to educate someone like
this, and I imagine there is more to this story than you've shared with us.
You've gone through so much to get to where you are to let this be anything more than
a spec of dust on your journey. Having to work with her, the two of you will have more encounters. Have you thought about how these future encounters may go?
She's already got you questioning yourself (when you shouldn't be!) as to how you live YOuR life.
We all know there are people out there with this type of opinion, not a single one of us wants to hear it!
Be careful moving forward with this situation, and don't let it get to involved before reporting it.

As far as the rest of your story goes.....MIRRORS LIE!
(Hell! Some even come with warnings printed on them!)
Much Love,
Kristyn

[Samantha981]

Marcelle, so sorry to hear about what you had to go through. While we talk a lot here about fashion or makeup, true beauty is of course inside and she was showing that she does not have it. You are beautiful inside and out, and your smile in your avatar pic is so warm. You have been so friendly and welcoming here, and offering support to others, showing your beauty. Some have talked about whether we pass when out or not, and not caring what others think, myself included, but in reality I would be hurt if someone confronted me. I think your feelings are natural to be so hurt.

So happy that you have a caring wife and provides so much support. Sometimes talking about it, or typing here, can help work through the feelings. Hope that getting through the weekend it will wear off a bit and you will be able to jump back in. I'm sure it won't be the same with her.... sometimes there are people at work we have to tolerate.
Take care,
Samantha

[becky77]

I'm sorry for you Marcelle.
But she is an ignorant idiot and best ignored if possible.

She seems so bothered that I can't help wonder if there is more to it, it's as if she has taken it personally.

[Megan Thomas]

An old saying springs to mind in respect of her. That is "never argue with an idiot as they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience".

It takes courage to transition in the face of adversities. Just be true to yourself and let others fall by the wayside if they're not supportive.

[Angela Campbell]

I guess this is why we develop a thick skin. We all get this in different degrees, and have to learn our own ways to deal with it. In time things seem to get better.

[sarahcsc]

Poor Marcelle.

Are you Canadian, Marcelle? My impression of Canadians is that they are usually very friendly and accepting. It must have been terribly unlucky for you to bump into one as hostile and close-minded as your subordinate. I feel sorry for you.

I too had a similar experience with a nurse who yelled the four letter word at me in front of everybody. I turned to him and said, "I think that says more about you than it says about me".

I know you must be hurting now but at a later time, if you could find the compassion and courage to understand her, I strongly suggest you talk to her again to find out where she was coming from. I think it would do you a great deal of good both personally and professionally if you could resolve misunderstandings peacefully rather than resorting to avoidance or hostility.

Like the nurse who yelled at me, although I felt hurt and humiliated, I knew that his behaviour said more about him that it does about me. I invited him into my office and clarified his position before setting some clear boundaries with him.

Yes, you have to set boundaries with your colleagues or subordinates. You cannot assume that they know that already.

So take some time to reflect on this experience and have a good cry if you need, but don't let this opportunity slip through your fingers. As you mentioned, that most people who don't feel comfortable with you simply turn and walk away without wanting to address the situation. This subordinate of yours, crass and insensitive as she may be, somehow plucked the courage to tell you how she felt.

The least you could do is return the favour. So put your hurt and anger aside for now, and do your best to resolve this.

Of course, we must also learn to pick our battles. If you feel that this lady is beyond your reach, then perhaps it is better to approach her through a different channel (ie. through a superior).

There is no right or wrong approach as long as you have given it a try.

Take care, Marcelle. :)

Love,
S

[LeaP]

Every once in a while I wonder why I keep coming here. Your post is a strong reminder. Thank you for sharing the experience, brutal as it was.

[Pat]

I often think of incidents like this as "Don Quixote" moments. In the musical, the brigands hold a mirror up to DQ to show him he's a pathetic old man and he sees what they see and is, for a time, broken by it. (But he recovers.) I think the issue is she put the mirror up and forced you to see her vision -- not what's there; not what's true, just her dark vision. And the demons we all carry inside who want to think the worst of us are telling you it must be true. I'm so sorry you're going through this. To switch literary metaphors, I offer Saint Exupery's The Little Prince who tells us that "It is only with the heart that one sees truly. What is essential is invisible to the eye." The beauty you bring to life outshines any failure to meet a physical ideal. I've experienced that from you here in the forums and I think most of the other people on here have too. Don't let 'em grind you down.

[flatlander_48]

M:

There will always be people who attempt to elevate themselves by disparaging others. This is the nature of prejudice and it is unfortunate that it was visited upon you.

However, let us remember the positives here. You have dedicated you life to be part of an organization that protects your country and its inhabitants. Further, even as you work through personally difficult times, you have continued to do your job as always. To me, that speaks volumes about your priorities and the value you place on service. How can you not be an admirable person and worthy of of your position and uniform?

I am reminded of this passage from Marianne Williamson. While is holds true for all of us who transcend preconceived cultural boundaries, I think it is especially true in this situation.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people will not feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It is not just in some of us; it is in everyone and as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give others permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

To me, one particularly noteworthy part of that is: "We are all meant to shine..."

Anyway, as you read through the comments here, be reminded that we are all with you.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Marcelle, I'm sorry this happened. This woman is ignorant beyond words.

I saw your thread earlier and was at a loss to know what to say until a friend, whose son lives openly with his boyfriend, posted this on facebook:

"Should you ever find yourself the victim of other people’s bitterness, smallness or insecurities, remember things could be worse … you could be them."

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Thanks very much for your kind comments and support . . . it means a lot to have this type of social support to discuss these things. Yesterday was a bit nerve wrecking as I felt out of sorts and since I would have to face that person again it was even harder. I went to the gym in the morning and did my usual workout and she was there. She never looked sideways at me but I could feel the tension. When I went to my cubicle she was in hers and we made brief eye contact and went about our respective days. Unfortunately, I could not let it go . . . those comments were hurtful. So I went to her cubicle and asked to talk to her with a neutral third party mediator (CAF policy for alternative dispute resolution). She agreed and the meeting is set up for today. Keeping my fingers crossed things maintain a civil semblance.

I feel a bit better today but still having a hard time looking at myself in the mirror albeit not as bad as yesterday . . . guess I am healing.

Cheers

Marcelle

[pamela7]

Hi Marcelle,

I feel for you, and feel you handled her well. Having been the target of attempts at manipulation/abuse/control I learned from self-defense against a master manipulator, and if anyone wants i can post a list of one-liner defensive reflections/deflections and some rules in conversations to avoid repeats of such things.

The first rule I have is to decline any comments about me or my work, so if someone comes along for a conversation, get in at the front you'll listen to her feelings she's having in relation to you, but you're refusing any comments on yourself. My responses to her might include: "whatever you think of me is your projection and i'm not interested, go see a counsellor", "how you feel about a transwoman is something you will have to learn to deal with in our modern society, remember there are transmen too, maybe you're leaning that way, and so angry because of unconscious denial?".

Even though the "ugly sister male aspect" will poke through, remember, our transitions do make us more beautiful, even of others do think we're ugly; that is their problem. People come in all shapes and sizes, and as long as your wife loves you then don't listen to someone who is not behaving lovingly to you. There are bad people in the world, feel empathy for how horrible it must be to be that person on the inside.

PS Always refuse any apology from such a person. After making an attack - which has followed them making themselves a victim of your dressing - they will need to relieve themselves by rescuing you/themselves through apology. Nothing works better than refusing them this release, in terms of making sure they don't do it again. (check out the "Karpman Triangle")

sending love

xxx Pamela

[Jennifer-GWN]

Marcelle... Slay the dragon!!!!

[flatlander_48]

Keeping my fingers crossed things maintain a civil semblance.

Doesn't make a lot of difference. If she doesn't, she will have shown here true colors in front of a witness. I wouldn't think that any military organization would keep someone that stupid on the payroll, but you never know. What we all have to remember is that in this situation the idea is reiterating the parameters of acceptable behavior, not about changing minds.



"Should you ever find yourself the victim of other people’s bitterness, smallness or insecurities, remember things could be worse … you could be them."

Amen.

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

geeeze who put sand in her panties? My, my, so much anger. I am glad you really didn't respond. Someday, somewhere, someone will do that to her (maybe her superior officer and it will be on permanent record).

[Stephanie Sometimes]

Oh Marcelle I am sorry to hear that this bully was inflicting her vile opinion on you. The sad fact is that there are bad people in this world that take pleasure out of harming others and they do it on purpose to inflict pain. In my experience you will never change their mind and all you can normally do is try to ignore them and not let them know that their vile rhetoric has any effect on you. This may sound like giving in but I don't know any other way to reduce the bullying unless your organization has a method of dealing with the kind of subtle harassment that this woman is practicing. I hope that is the case. If her bigotry interferes in any way with getting the job done in the workplace then you may have a way to get back at her. Keep your nose clean in any interactions and let her damage her own reputation if possible.

To me this person is the lowest form of homo sapiens and the kind of person that would do bodily harm to you if the societal conditions were different and allowed it. We see societies around the world that abuse their own people on a regular basis just for being different in some way they don't approve of. You can't talk sense into a zealot stoning a man or woman for some small perceived infraction of their standard of normality. It is likely that you can't change this woman's mind with a reasoned discussion.

Not for a minute do I feel sorry for these kind of people and I have had the misfortune of dealing with the likes of several of them in my high school days long ago. The only way I ever found to deal with them was to understand how fundamentally depraved they are and to learn to ignore them and just to laugh at the absurdity of their hate and ignorance. I know it still hurts a lot but it reminds us that living life to the fullest is not easy and not for the faint of heart. The one thing you can do is summon the inner strength to hold your head high and be the person you want to be.

You have really given me inner strength with your story over the last year of so on the forum so I hope you can benefit from the support from the rest of us here. We thank you for posting and we share in your pain.

Hugs,
Stephanie

[Di]

Thinking about you and hope your meeting helps.
I was so upset reading what this ignorant , stupid ugly jerk said and did to you I wanted to jump in my car and drive up there and set her straight. ( yes I know. Would make things worse but my first reaction)
You are a beautiful, caring woman living your true life.... Please see this when looking in the mirror. :hugs:
Sending strength.

[Marcelle]

Well, our meeting got put off for a day so it happened yesterday. As expected . . . didn't go well. She was confrontational/defensive from the beginning even though we both know this has no punitive ramifications and is just a venue to talk things through and come to some sort of resolve. This is one bitter woman and I quickly realized it is not just me she has a problem with, it is all things which go against the grain of her perfect Vanilla world. In her words the CAF is "too politically correct" these days to the detriment of all the "hardworking normal people". For those who are not Canadian or you have not seen it on the Canadian news, there was a story in the news about a Royal Canadian Navy same sex couple who made history when a sailor returning home from sea duty shared the classic "homecoming kiss" with his spouse. She went on a tirade about this and how she doesn't care what people do so long as she doesn't have to see it and nobody would make a big deal if it was a normal couple, it is just because they are gay it is getting all this attention. Seriously bitter.

I tried to explain to her that when she says things like she did it hurts because she is denigrating who I am. She maintains it is her opinion and she has the right to voice it. I told her she has the right to her opinion within reason and when she states so in the workplace it contravenes harassment policy. She took the "the CAF just being politically correct" stance again and then went on about how people use PTSD to milk the system and get what they want, get promoted ahead of her and whatnot. At this point I called it . . . there was nothing to be done. My final parting comment to her was "You may not like the person, you may not agree with who I am, you may not respect me but you will respect the Queen's commission. You can have your opinion but you will not voice it overtly at work and if you do, I will have you charged with harassment. Play within those confines and we won't have a problem"

Arrg . . . some folks are just lost causes. On a personal note, I am doing better and while I still have a bit of issue looking at myself in the mirror . . . it is getting better. Thanks for all your support. :)

Cheers

Marcelle

[Kaitlyn Michele]

yes! she is a lost cause.... there are steamrollers like her everywhere and all each of us can do is get out of the way and in your case you flagged her...

think of how frustrated she is right now being told her "opinion" is not allowed to be stated

I know that's only one part of it, but its an important part...good job!!!

as far as the mirror i hear you , welcome to womanhood!

[Suzanne F]

Marcelle
I am so proud of how you handled that meeting. She is so full of fear that the only way she knows how to deal with it is through anger. It is apparent that she is very unhappy. You on the other hand, are full of courage. Let's celebrate the woman you are and the person you are becoming!
Suzanne

[steftoday]

There are, unfortunately, some miserable examples of human beings out there.
Congratulations on how you handled the whole thing.

[Bria]

Marcelle, I am in complete agreement with your final statement to her. We can't control what other people think as long as they keep their thoughts to themselves. I am reminded of the old idea that my freedom of action ends at your nose.

You have taken the high road with this lady (?), it's time to feel good about yourself, you are beautiful to all who really know you!

Hugs, Bria

[Heidi Stevens]

I'm glad this episode is now squared with everyone, Marcelle. I've run into a lot of people like this woman in my area. They always are in the right, they always have THE answer to everything, they would kick you to the trash heap (or Cornwallis Island:devil:) if they had their way. Take a deep breath and carry on, Ma'am!

[sarahcsc]

Well done, Marcelle. :)

I'm glad you were able to set boundaries with her.

She is very bitter and she is already being punished simply by being bitter.

I hope you are feeling better.

Take care.
S

[flatlander_48]

My final parting comment to her was "You may not like the person, you may not agree with who I am, you may not respect me but you will respect the Queen's commission. You can have your opinion but you will not voice it overtly at work and if you do, I will have you charged with harassment. Play within those confines and we won't have a problem"


M:

Just as I said, this situation is about behaviors. It is the only thing that can be enforced. Further, if she ever leaves the military she will quickly find out that similar policies are in place in the private sector. No one wants to put up with her kind of B/S because it is a disruption and a major drain of time and energy. If I had to guess, I would say that her personality is the biggest impediment to her being promoted and nothing to do with anyone else. No one wants to be around an energy sink. It costs too much...

DeeAnn

[VanTG]

I totally hear what you said in that post and have to wonder why she would say those things to you? Like others have said it probably points to an issue she is having and afraid to take a leap. She goes out of her way to make others feel terrible because she is going through emotional hell for some reason.

Just a thought but maybe you could grab a brochure for a counselling support line and drop it off at her desk with a note, saying "putting other people down won't fix your problems"!

Marcelle, you are who you are. The support you have provided others within this form is priceless. The courage you have shown is also priceless. You are a role model to a lot of people.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Such cruelty- all the hallmarks of a narrow-minded fool.

The simple fact is that for every Giselle Bundchen there are 100 girls who wish they were more attractive- you're experiencing what most girls feel from time to time. There are even plenty of girls who you and I might consider pretty, who loathe the way they look; who self-harm; who destroy their health with eating disorders, who no matter what others tell them, will continue to hate themselves.

But this is particularly hard for you because the blows she landed, again and again, were calculated to inflict maximum damage, and she clearly has lots of experience at being mean and nasty. She's good at it. She hit you where you're most vulnerable. I cringe to think of that smug, triumphant smirk on her face, but it's the same smirk worn by a high school cheerleader who has just delivered a put down to a plainer girl. Small comfort, I know.

You could also consider that to have got such a string of abuse from her, you may have stirred up some deep feelings about her own body image.

Hugs and best wishes for a bright future,

Nikki

[Nicole Erin]

it would be easy to say "don't let it bother you" but anytime we have bad personal interactions, it wears on us. Just part of the human condition. You hurt but then come out stronger.


...I wouldn't think that any military organization would keep someone that stupid on the payroll, but you never know.
The logistics are like this -
If the Canadian military is anything like the U.S. military - getting kicked out (called "chaptered out") before your time is done is a lengthy complicated process and one size doesn't fit all. One also cannot just quit on a whim the way you can a civilian job. So she is stuck there and they are stuck with her at least tile her obligation is fulfilled.

So about this woman that Marcelle dealt with -
If this woman has problems with anything LGBT and probably other communities and sub-cultures, who cares what she thinks? She should be focusing on living her own life rather than trying to tell others how to live. We all see things we do not agree with but there isn't anything anyone can really do other than blab their mouths (which may have consequences depending on who you blab to)

More important for Marcelle -
I assume the vast majority of your fellow workers, family, strangers, and acquaintances have no problem with who you are. So why do those who don't approve even matter? People who have a problem with TG are often insecure in their own gender. Male and female are biological and do not change but "gender roles" like man or woman are social and honestly, an act. The problem with insecurity in people comes because they may not feel "man enough" or "woman enough". They feel like they are in competition with other "men" or "women". So for that woman you are dealing with, something happened or IS happening in her life where she doesn't feel "woman enough".

[flatlander_48]

The logistics are like this -
If the Canadian military is anything like the U.S. military - getting kicked out (called "chaptered out") before your time is done is a lengthy complicated process and one size doesn't fit all. One also cannot just quit on a whim the way you can a civilian job. So she is stuck there and they are stuck with her at least tile her obligation is fulfilled.

Yes, but if this sort of negative attention continues, her situation will become more and more untenable. And, it doesn't seem to be a mystery as to why she has not advanced. I would also wonder if she hasn't been bounced around through various assignments in order to prevent just what you mentioned.

Going back to the days when I supervised other engineers and technicians, one of the things that my employer emphasized was the elimination, or at least the minimization, of liability for the company. With the possibility of an harassment grievance, it can open the door for all sorts of negative perceptions about the organization and how it manages Diversity and Inclusion. And yes, the military is different in that there are many internal proceedings and hearings that can take place long before anything ever becomes public, if ever. But clearly, when higher levels become aware of a situation that looks like you cannot control your direct reports, it paints a bad picture.

Further, as I said, this situation can also exist in the private sector. If a company is trying to do right by its employees and is invested in doing what is socially responsible and appropriate, this behavior will not stand for long. Until she understands what she can and cannot do in terms of behavior, her career will continue to be stymied regardless of the organization.

DeeAnn

[Eryn]

yes! she is a lost cause.... there are steamrollers like her everywhere...

No, that should be "There are people who are so insecure in themselves that they cannot handle being around anyone who does not conform to their narrow-minded concept of correctness."

She's the one with the problem, and the great thing is that Marcelle isn't responsible for fixing it! She set the woman straight and now the bigot can just stew!

Marcelle's example will give me courage if I am confronted with a similar issue!

[flatlander_48]

Personally, I would just laugh because I KNOW that the woman is crazy. Actually, make that CRAZY!!!

DeeAnn

[trisha kobichenko]

Hi,
I have been following your posts since I became a member here. For what it's worth you inspire me.
Hugs,
Trish

[Cristy2]

I feel your pain Marcelle, I have a similar issue with members of my own family. Mouths like a run away diesel, they go at you when you are in the room and go at you when you stay away from being in the same room.

[karen inside]

Marcelle, A great smile is everything-it shows confidence and reflects the strength inside...and you have a great smile! I would know 'cause thats all i have and its gotten me much success in life. Even at my work(largest theme park in the world) we have enforced rules about harrassment, hostile work environment, etc, yet always someone risks their job because they try to establish control over another- no matter how petty or cheezy that effort is. Humans...so predictable. Count on your co-workers who know your track record, your dependability. I'm a small man too-but i weight train and exercise passionately. I don't intend to be the next arnold but i know it essential to my long term health and my state of mind. The term "personal best" is inside for us...not for others to gauge us by. Live for you, your family, outsiders will always come and go. And keep smiling!

[Gerrijerry]

Let me start off by telling you that she had no right to speak to you that way. She is now feeling that she is the only person who has rights, and you are in a very dangers place at work. Why you may ask. Because people who think the way she does will sooner or later start problems for you. She may even try to have you fired. How do I know? Because I have been there. The difference is that I went to my company and reported the person. They talked to her then sent her for sensitivity training. Three weeks later she came over and apologize. What was said to her? I will never know, but she must have told others. Because many other people in the office started to talk to me that had never done so before. Never had a problem after that. I even received a promotion a year later.

[Andrea2000]

You're a better person than I am. I think if I wear in that situation that woman would have met my inner Italian. I would have delighted to point out all of her imperfections. I would have sarcastically treated her like a snooty princess for the rest of the day.

I WOULD have her crying.

Sorry, my advice would probably get you fired

[jenni2313]

Marcella,

Thank you for sharing. You handled it like a true lady (I might have slugged her). Know you are braver, stronger, and a better woman than she'll ever be. Stay who you are- beautiful inside and out.

[Andrea2000]

Marcella,

Now that I've hit 10 post and can really see what you look like, plus the image you posted on my gender pondering thread.... let me just say (more calmly) that woman must be blind. You are very beautiful. And I dont mean that as a "pass", just an honest compliment.

You also seem like you're happy on the inside, and that's where real beauty resides. Dont let that person tear you down to her level. She is obviously very insecure and needs to bring others down to elevate herself. Like a bully.