gender 'fluid' or gender 'purgatory'?

[Robin414]

Any 'tweens' ask yourself this question? I'm struggling walking the line and I'm really fining it hard to find my balance 😢

I know, 'see a phsycologist stupid' but I'd like to try the input from the masses first (ya, I'm a cheapskate, and I still have a senses of humor 😑 😂

[mechamoose]

I'm perfectly comfortable with where I am. Perhaps it is just my strange background, but I'm quite at home with it. I'm gender-queer and quite content.

I *like* myself. Do you? (probing intent, not a challenge)

If not, why?

- Kitty / Moose

[Dana44]

Robin, I understand what your are thinking. I struggle also but I do balance my male side and dress male even if I am in fem mode, Had to do that for a couple weeks and found that I as back in male mode after about a week and a half. LOL I was seriously in fem mode. But yeah being male sure got me out of it. Today I am fem and dressing male as I have a business meeting. Yeah it is hard to find that balance. But hey go male for a while and you will perhaps find that balance. Yeah we are tween and it still is good to be a boy/girl.

[Secret Drawer]

I like that phrase "gender purgatory." I also struggle with this gender identity thing. I am somewhere in the 80/20 female to male preference range (according to Dr. Science !) so it is not easy presenting mostly male when I am "out and about." It does seem that when I embrace this gender balance more accurately that I do better.
I had bought a nice skirt for myself over the Christmas holiday. Being in a DADT I did not get the chance to try it on until the Christmas breaks were over for the kids and the wife. Once I did, I was overwhelmed and actually cried. Yes, I do struggle with it, perhaps it is some purgatory after all?

[Teresa]

Robin,
It is a fine line and mine is just on the male side, finally finding that out has taken the purgatory feelings out of the equation !
I will add that a change of stress levels does still shake the wire sometimes and the need to dress or shop becomes stronger .

[Jennifer W]

I consider myself gender fluid. A lot of the time I have to present as male and I'm good with that even if I'm feeling female at the time. When I have alone time and I feel male I dress in between anyway. I never dress fully female. I rarely dress fully male. I always have some of my female articles on even when I'm a guy. Mix and match. I've learned to love myself no matter what but it wasn't easy.

[JeanTG]

Purgatory for me. If I could find away to cure this curse I'd be happier. I could be happy if I could find a balance, but the problem is time to dress is restricted. If I could simply follow my mood I'm sure I'd be OK, but I can't due to my wife so I end up being enormously frustrated much of the time. I can wear panties 24/7 with her tolerance, but nothing else. And i do love to dress fully female, head to toe. I'd love to shave, paint my toenails, sleep in a nightie, etc.

Yes I've sought therapy. No, it hasn't really helped. The only conclusion that came out of it is "you have to find a balance". Well duhh...

[mechamoose]

Isn't the heart of balance acceptance?

If you wish it would go away, why do you feel that? What is so repulsive?

Honest question, not trying to troll.

- Kitty / Moose

[Nadine Spirit]

I often feel as though I am teeter totter that just can't ever find a true balance and I am constantly fluctuating. The more I accept who I am and show that in my daily life and appearance, regardless of where I am, who I am with, or what I am doing, the better I feel about myself.

[JeanTG]

Isn't the heart of balance acceptance?

If you wish it would go away, why do you feel that? What is so repulsive?

- Kitty / Moose

Sometimes the tension between the two is unbearable especially when one can't actualize the mode one is in. I would rather be a full transsexual and go through that whole process than live the frustration I feel now.

Acceptance? Well let's just say it's a work in progress. When you're in a situation where if you fully realized who you were would cause your world to collapse, let's just say that self-acceptance is a bit of a challenge at times.

I can relate to what Nadine is saying. When you can live out what you are without fear or discrimination, it makes self-acceptance easier. When your situation forces you to be sneaky about where and when you dress, it makes you feel cheap and disgusting.

[Saikotsu]

Sorry for the typos. Hard to fix them on my phone, since attempts to edit auto-delete

- - - Updated - - -

And it looks like I lost my entire post. Grrr. Oh well. Round two.
I managed to find my balance in adding little things from both sides of myself to my attire. My toes are almost always painted now, and I wear women's glasses (they look unisex, so they work no matter how I feel). On the extra rough days where I have to present one way or the other, like at work where I must present male, I wear women's work socks (they look gender neutral), and will even put clear polish on my fingers. I also grew out my hair, for both genders. Male because I want to do something with what's left of my hair, and female because I wanted longer locks.
Subtle things like that help to make me feel more balanced no matter what my genderometer says. And of course, when possible, I try to dress to match.

[mechamoose]

I will admit to being blind on acceptance issues. I really don't understand us folks who feel like we are wrong or warped. We are who we are. We just ARE.

If that is where you are, then I don't know what to say or do. I'm sorry, I just can't help here. I just don't know how. Not that I don't want to.

We are NORMAL variants of the human condition. We have existed for millenia, and have held holy places in societies *because* of that state. "Walkers in both worlds".

Why does it make you feel so bad about yourself? I really want to understand. Please help me.

- Kitty / Moose

[mykell]

hi robin,
in support sessions i identify as fluid, by that for me it is my presentation that is fluid, i find values for how i present are sometimes self imposed and some are balanced of where my spouses comfort levels are with our present agreements....soo for me i liken my jeans and shirt guy mode with that of say a GG gal dressing easy for the task at hand, comfy at work or going on an errand, my wife does not want me leaving the house dressed.....lots of compromise since i am high maintenance it makes for difficult challenges...
getting ready at location means in the car, its own challenge, so doing makeup in the dark while in the car for support meeting :Pullhair: not an easy task even with daylight so its guy mode most of the winter. work....im not in this full time so its easier to do it in guy mode, even in my guy clothes putting on my briefs feels better with the freshly shaved leg, a winter breeze with my guy jeans on still feels IDK girly against my legs ? il shop for my girl stuff in guy made, bought my wig and makeup that way....forms and corset.....yup guy time....bra fitting as a girl.

would i dress or do more if i could......yes but lots of things would have to line up, finances first, better understanding and acceptance from my wife, (hope that will improve more in time as it has already) and more acceptance from the public in general to help with my own fear mostly thinking about getting out in the wild whether going for coffee or to work.

im me whether dressed as one or the other, i like what i like, i may act slightly differently when dressed as one or the other but it is dictated buy say carrying a purse....the gate of my walk, physical things not mental. so i dont want to speak for anybody but its a self imposed "purgatory" and for the most part i have found ways around it and am comfortable here for the most part....(always have a thread pop up or a member trying to instill theyre values on me that makes me question things) and in the wild the few times i have ventured out with the natives i scared myself how natural it felt after i just got out there....

im a cheapskate Too and usually find what i need here....good luck....

[Alice Torn]

Moose, Some of us have been in religions, that condemn anything outside of Male/Female binary heterosexuality. It tends to breed guilt and shame. that never really completely goes away.

[Nadine Spirit]

Moose -

In my never to be humble opinion, sometimes for some people, it just feels odd to be different. Sometimes it doesn't even really matter what it is. If you are in a group of people, and everyone around you wants to order pepperoni pizza and you are the only one who absolutely hates pepperoni, sometimes it feels odd to speak up and say you don't want pepperoni on your pizza. If you carry these feelings out to other things, that have a bit more importance in life, like your gender, and not just a stupid pizza, then yeah it can be a bit overwhelmingly difficult for some to not feel bad about it. Especially when you consider that many folks have never had experience in real life with anyone else that has any gender issues. Then you feel like you are the only one. Oh and toss in that often the people that are the most critical of gender variances are those that are closest to us, parents, siblings, SOs, and for some it would just make life a heck of a lot easier if we just never had to struggle with gender issues.

Just my two cents!

[AllieSF]

If the "purgatory effect" is self imposed I can understand what Moose is saying because how we feel is mostly under our own control. However, when we live in purgatory due to outside influences, some of which we may have some control over that is a different situation.

JeanTG said above "I could be happy if I could find a balance, but the problem is time to dress is restricted." For her it is part of those outside restrictions that causes her issues. I accept who I am, and being retired, single and living alone, I have less external influences on this side of my life. Therefore, I have not experienced others' purgatory. I am happy. As I get deeper into this over time, which I am slowly doing, I may have to take some actions to address my external issues, which may even cause additional issues. Sounds like a vicious circle, but I believe it does not have to end up being that if we make the correct and timely decisions, the really hard ones, as we go down our individual paths of life.

[mechamoose]

As an Aspie person, I totally get being the 1 person out of 10 with a different view. I have been right more often than not.

So let me ask, is it accepting your peers in order to fit in?

Me, I don't care about fitting in. I gave up on that long ago.

I *delight* in not fitting. I *enjoy* being strange. My strangeness has served me well. Is THAT my issue?

Sure it has been a 'corporate-land' liability, but I still brought good ideas to the table. Sometimes they have been precient and have saved a boatload of cash. I believe in daring to be different.

Scaling it back more than a little bit, I still want to understand why members here are so conflicted? What could be so bad? Why?

Isn't maintaining relationships worth more than running away? Even if you CD, aren't you are still the person you are? Clothes can't change that. It isn't like you are giving in, that cute person is YOU, even if you don't admit why. It is just you.

<still confused>

[mykell]

MM
i remember this time when you were not as robust and stable and self assured, we all struggle sometimes....


Uncomfortable
I have posted more then a few links on this. But I'm finding it particularly frustrating at the moment.

I'm a big furry dude who feels like a little bitty girl inside. I'm blessed in that my wife likes me playing the female role, as she is very much the "boy" in our 30 plus year relationship. She accepts me. She supports me. I like wearing frilies, and she *loves* that. It fits her counterpart male side vs mine perfectly.

So, in my daily life situation, I find I have to hide behind my fur. I'm in NFL ranges for body and weight, but I internally identify as a tiny thing with boobs & hips.

I'm never going to be one of you girls that can 'pull it off'... one who can wear a short skirt & heels and have it look *right*. The few trans events I have attended have been super cool, and just as isolating. I can't go to where you go. Sure, I'm 'accepted as a sister, but I don't *FIT*. 'Accepted' isn't the same as thing as 'one of us'.

I did a CD event a few months ago. I was accepted, but I was the subject of a ton of private whispers. "Look at that, she has a beard!" "It is just a guy in a dress." Sure, I hadn't worn forms. My 52" male chest filled out my dress quite well, thank you. I wore dangley earrings, eye shadow and mascara, sequined heels.. but nobody would have ever sen me as anything but male (which is disappointing, but understandable)

I'm a GIRL, dammit, trapped in a bull male body. I *like* my bull male body. It is strong and capable and can do all kinds of cool stuff. I still wish I was different inside.

Nobody came up to talk to me that whole night. I spent the night jamming to music and dancing with random T-girls who seemed to appreciate the attention. (Props to the sweetie who let me grab her by the hips and rock it out dancing!)

The acceptance (non rejection?) felt great, but I still felt like an outsider. I was a 'gurl', but not quite a 'girl'.

I'm FEMALE, inside dammit. I happen to live in a very masculine frame. A *nice* one. I really enjoy what it gives me. But it doesn't allow, even in the slightest, to wear anything from VS.

"Gender identification" is a (convenient) lie.

It has nothing to do with what your chromosomes say you are, It has nothing to do with roles or destiny. You are *YOU*.

Forgive me, I'm kind of hacked off at having to be 'deliberately' male for job interviews, (other threads) rather than being who I really feel that I am. I'm 6'2", 235#, 'V' shaped. That is my 'outside'. Inside, I'm a pear shaped thing with hips and a swish. I'm sad that it has NO connection to who I am ''inside'.

I'm a GIRL. Beard be damned.

(confused, frustrated, annoyed)

Thank you for all you do sisters!

(Gripe, moan, complain)

- MM





everyone will find self acceptance at theyre pace MM, so im confused now how you were at a place where you questioned yourself and while in say a "bearded purgatory" and in your relationship you had a ying to your yang, sometimes that takes longer for some, sometimes it may never happen, but should we judge those that cant find the balance they need....or cant do it with who they share a life with, or on your timeline, just a thought.....

[mechamoose]

Thank you for bringing up myself to confront myself. I'm my own best opponent.

I'm not trying to be insensitive. Perhaps I have gotten intolerant (an internal sin). I still just don't understand why it is so HARD.

While having said that. I don't think I ever said I was conflicted. I was confused then, as I am now.

I will ready for the slings and arrows that await me. I deserve what I put out.

I really don't understand what makes it so hard. We are just us.

Thank you, truly for pointing my own words against me. You are entirely in the right.

- Kitty / Moose

(Sign off changed on the request of more than one member. They wanted my girl name, now they have it.)

[reb.femme]

Any 'tweens' ask yourself this question? I'm struggling walking the line and I'm really fining it hard to find my balance

I know, 'see a phsycologist stupid' but I'd like to try the input from the masses first (ya, I'm a cheapskate, and I still have a senses of humor

I'm an all or nothing girl, so can't give an opinion based on experience, but I suspect it's societal pressures that constrain the way many of us will openly present. I wonder if being a tween draws more looks than if you were fully crossdressed? Probably complete bolleaux from me there, but just offering a possibility. In fact, go see a trick-cyclist or whatever and help prevent me from showing that I'm a bigger fool than I originally thought. :)

As Kitty said, she is happy with the way she is. Maybe you actually want more, but the future story hasn't quite blossomed yet? I'm thinking TS here.

Becky

[karen inside]

Many things to consider for many of us...family who has had it rough enough growing up and I am the one she counts on for stability: then there is work ( must be careful and be vague in this) where one minute i am talking to young people who are open about their gay and lesbian lifestyle and know I am accepting of it and treat me as a friend- then returning to my actual work area with rough tough workers who respect me as a one of them. When talking with the young people my voice/ mannerisms become softer,more feminine..something i am comfy with (I would rather spend my day with all of them) and while walking back to my co-workers I find more and more i must carefully present myself acceptable to them as they are very critical of the young employees and their choices in life. Don't get me wrong, I see the difference i make in some of their lives when they are asking advice or curious about my life experiences. But having to guard myself makes me desperate for more tolerance. I'm no doubt "gender fluid" but its out of necessity to need to balance. Love this forum and all of you especially after a day like today was!

[SuzyZahn]

Gender Purgatory,,,,yes,I find myself there a lot,,,,,,,love it,hate it,embrace it,try to ignore it,welcome it,purge it,relish in how devine it feels, the list goes on. One thing I`m sure of,,its never ever going away!

[Tracii G]

Maybe going the route of the American Indians and make an "inner journey".
Balance comes from the inside and your answers lie there. How you do it is up to you.

[Closeted Kat]

I think for me its still a gray area. I'm growing becoming more confident and my family/friends have been supportive of my ventures to find who i am and how i want to express myself. I also see a therapist, that hasn't made the gray area go away, just gives me more perspective to what makes me happy, and help me from getting lost in a temporary fog. Least that's my :2c:

[Tina_gm]

I ve actually used the purgatory phrase before. Caught, trapped in a place.... perhaps for me it isn't so much a gender purgatory. It seems more like a often times tug of war between masculine and feminine. Both want to be the one in control. Occasionally one side dominates for a while. One of my challenges is trying to appease both elements into a singular persona. The compromises we talk about with our partners, when, where, how much, how long.... I have an internal version of this going on as well. Life is complicated as hell being tg. That is why I would volunteer for an exit. It isn't from lack of acceptance. It's just a hard way to live life sometimes.

[JeanTG]

That is why I would volunteer for an exit. It isn't from lack of acceptance. It's just a hard way to live life sometimes.

Fatigue and frustration. Those are two things I feel from this constant tug-of-war. Sometimes one just gets weary and discouraged. Life would be much easier without hidden suitcases in the attic, a secret credit card to hide clothes and CD accessory purchases, DADT and make sure every trace of lipstick is gone by 5 pm, etc.

A pill that can cure being TG? Yes I'd take it. Even if the pill couldn't guarantee what side you'd end up on. I'd take it.

[Pat]

It sounds like if you're getting angsty you might be over-thinking it. When I get hung up on the big existential questions it's a sign that (a) I have too much time on my hands and (b) I'm focusing on theory instead of living my life. It's my tired old line about letting terms define you -- when I ask too hard about what I am, it's usually because I'm looking for a definition so I can say "If I am X, then I should do Y." And that's backwards -- I should do what I want to do and then think, "I do Y so I am X." If you're feeling guy-ish, just go be a guy for a while. If you're feeling girl-ish go be a girl. When you're totaling up at the end of the day you may find that you don't really have to solve for X, because it doesn't matter. ;)

[Beverley Sims]

I learned from my own experience and some mistakes.

A trick cyclist was never in my plan.

Some are so mixed up that they do need help.
I do feel for them.
If you can cope by yourself or with the help of others, that means people on the forum here can also give useful input, do look at it as it is good practice for further down the track.

[Tina_gm]

Jean, I don't go through as much of the physical exhaustive stuff from a dadt. I am semi dadt, I don't have to as thorough with the hiding.... it is the internal exhaustion I sometimes feel. Like two little kids scrambling in different directions and you go back and forth, always trying to pay attention to both, keep them together.... sometimes I think just pick a gender, either one.... but if girl came up gender may be constant, but so would the struggle of being in a gender identity your body doesn't match.

[Saikotsu]

I ve actually used the purgatory phrase before. Caught, trapped in a place.... perhaps for me it isn't so much a gender purgatory. It seems more like a often times tug of war between masculine and feminine. Both want to be the one in control. Occasionally one side dominates for a while. One of my challenges is trying to appease both elements into a singular persona. The compromises we talk about with our partners, when, where, how much, how long.... I have an internal version of this going on as well. Life is complicated as hell being tg. That is why I would volunteer for an exit. It isn't from lack of acceptance. It's just a hard way to live life sometimes.
I can understand why you might want to take an exit, but I myself wouldn't want to. I like this part of myself. Yeah it can get complicated at times, but I've come to enjoy the switches and figuring out who I am. I think of it kinda like the weather. You can't really control it, but you can do your best to enjoy whatever it might be on a given day. Some days you don't get what you want, but overall things are more interesting. After all, if every day had the same weather, eventually it would get boring. Though, I suppose most people don't get tired of being male or female. But now that I've experienced a variation, I wouldn't want to be static. Its like every day I get to see a new facet of myself.