how do you "know"?

[pamela7]

I'm curious as to the many and varied ways you all know you're female. Being a late-onset myself it's taken a lot of digging and soul searching. Here are some of mine:

1. i got that "i just know" feeeling emerging after about 9 months of asking
2. it's in my body: i no longer desire alcohol, the drug of truth, because now i'm true to myself
3. my body now throws sticks/balls true for the dog; i was unbalanced physically, now i am centred
4. my body loves heels; prefers them to flats
5. i feel depressed in manclothes, and since knowing all suicidal feelings have gone; feel elated en-femme
6. i dream constantly of accidents losing my testicles, constant pain there is my physical dysphoria

:-) Pamela

[Jennifer-GWN]

It is an innate and to the core feeling.

[Megan G]

Jennifer...so true.

[JanePeterson]

Well, being male no longer functions correctly... Narrowed it down for me!

[Peggie Lee]

I always knew, at 9 there was electro shock to try to "cure" me. I always knew, when at 13 placed on testosterone HRT to force male puberty. Always knew when at 15 my body changed forever male. I Always knew, when at 24 and got married and adopted 3 children because the need to have a family. I put off transitioning until I was 64 when I said up yours world I am going to be the woman I always knew I was.

[LeaP]

It's an interesting question. I don't know that the answer is very simple. Evidences – the sort of thing you give in your answer, might support knowledge but I don't think are knowledge. And intellectual grasp of facts is only one kind of knowledge anyway. In fact, taking things to the extreme, one's apprehension of fact doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how they perceive reality. You don't, for example, perceive yourself as a loose collection of molecules, a boundary within which there is overwhelmingly more space than anything else. Yet those are the facts at the subatomic level.

Two, you might ask what is consciousness? Does it proceed from the physical reality or is it something separate, in addition, contingent or partially so ? No matter, they all lead to more questions. Any answers you come across might address the question of gender, but none of them do so outside of their own framework. Existentialism doesn't solve the problem, either. It is just one way of acknowledging it.

How many free and clear, unhedged "knowings" can you commit to? Meaning those which you have never questioned? I can think of very few. Gender is not one of them.

I once wrote a response on the concept of knowing, here:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?225151-How-young-were-you&p=3713412&viewfull=1#post3713412

Turns out that knowing things is a little convoluted… Except for those things that you have always, unambiguously known. Yet I now commit to gender just AS IF (or in the same manner) as those. I can describe how I got there – though what I know is not a process. I can describe what it feels like at times – though I do NOT think gender is rooted in feelings. I can even describe the framework of my religious, ethical, and philosophical understanding of self and gender – which will persuade exactly no one who is committed to their own, conflicting frameworks.

In the end I do not know how I know. I just do. But as strange as it might sound in a forum like this, knowing doesn't matter! As someone once wrote in another thread long ago, at some point you move beyond knowledge to trust then action. If so, the real point may not be how you know, but that you reach a point where the self-knowledge is a given.

[Eringirl]

For the first time ever.....EVER.....I am comfortable in my own skin.....

[Rachel Smith]

I agree with Erin it is finally GOOD to be me. Which btw is how I felt when I dressed before transition.

[I Am Paula]

Maybe it was because I was soooo different from the boys. Their behaviour, likes, and dislikes made me shake my head from a very young age.
By 13, I just knew.
If I may quote The Danish Girl- I dream(ed) her dreams.

[PretzelGirl]

For me, it is in the thought Erin expressed. I had internal struggles all the way to my transition. Then I did it, everything settled down, and my personality flourished. I was comfortable and facades melted away. You can tell what is the authentic you when it feels natural and makes you the happiest.

[Rianna Humble]

For me, it was mainly an unshakeable feeling from when I was very young that I was not a boy (later man).

I understand that I am not typical, but later on it was that inner feeling that stopped me from marrying someone that I loved deeply - because she needed to marry a man and I wasn't.

Later still, it was the clinical depression triggered by being looked upon as a man.

Later again, the sense of freedom when I was acknowledged as me, convinced me that I was doing the right thing by giving in to who I am.

[PaulaQ]

I know because I'm not dead.

I sat crying and alone, late one rainy March night three years ago. I was miserable - that was nothing new. I wanted to die, and I had been thinking about it for months. That was new. I'd known that I needed to live as a woman since I was about 10. I simply felt it was impossible, and tried to live the way people told me I was supposed to live. This required many tricks on my part. I'm pretty inventive though - so I dodged these feelings for decades.

Until that night.

As my gender dysphoria reached a crescendo that I'd never before experienced, I knew, in that moment, that what I faced would surely destroy me if I did nothing. Worse, I knew that all the tricks I'd used to deny it for all those decades were no longer going to work. I knew I had no choice to but to do something totally different - deal with this. It was the only thing I'd never tried.

And as I realized this, I knew then that my life had been nearly a complete and total fabrication. That I'd been playing a part, a role, and said, done, or expressed few genuine actions or feelings of my own. It was crushing, really, in that moment, to know that I'd wasted most of my life. That no one knew me. That almost nothing I had held any meaning for me, and that none of the things I'd spent most of my time on meant anything to me - they were just distractions to keep my mind off these terrible, terrible feelings I had. I may as well have been the living dead. But in that moment, a moment of clarity, I knew what I was.

That didn't stop me from trying to hang on to things that I knew I was going to lose anyway, of course. I did that for a couple of more months, until I tried to take my life. At that point, I realized that not only was this true - I was a woman - but that I'd waited so long for treatment that I had real doubts I'd survive long enough for treatment to be effective for me.

There really wasn't any point in debating it intellectually any longer. If I was wrong, if I wasn't in fact a woman, then I knew I'd be dead by my own hand. I felt I only had time enough for one try, and if I was somehow, as improbable as it seemed by that point, not trans, then it didn't matter. I wouldn't live for a second attempt.

I look back on those terrible, terrible times alone three years ago, as I finally allowed myself to admit a truth I'd known all along, and the feelings that it brings up are still very painful to me. (I'm weeping as I type this.) I can tell you that there is NOTHING on this earth that I fear more than the thought of ever feeling the way I did between the six months after I joined this forum and I started HRT. There is no torture you could threaten me with greater than what I felt then.

It's easier, I guess, to be sure when the alternative is death. Maybe that makes me lucky?

All of those feelings are gone now, but for the memories. I want to live now. I am happy now. I love my life and I love people now. I've always been a woman, but actually living as one saved my life. My life feels real now. It never did before. I relate to people now - I used to feel like I must've come from another planet. I guess that's proof enough. At least it is for me.

[LookingGlass]

Starting at about age 6 I had some confused feelings and thoughts like something about me was not quite set right. I stayed confused about things I did and felt and thought forever. Looking at it from both male and female perspectives, the male side could never make sense of them, but the female perspective always seemed to. But I was always so upset about not really finding my place I kept a lot to myself and let the outside body dictate things. Got so ingrained with it that I still have trouble letting go. But when I do, holy hades I feel better... until I begin overthinking things and panic.

But in the end, I am convinced genetics got the blueprints wrong and knew in some way early on.

[Cristy2]

Deep down I have always known and up til a year or two ago, spent my life time trying to run and hide from it.

[Starling]

Never felt right, always a wall between me and the life going on around me, always having to calculate my behavior. Compelled to dress in my mother's clothes and wear her lipstick and nail polish; it made me feel calm and good, even before puberty. Don't remember ever being simply happy. Always tugged at by irrepressible thoughts of being female and crushed by my belief that I was the only monster like me. Decades ago, when I was 35, a woman friend dressed me in her clothes and wig and made me up, and for the first time I saw myself in the mirror, as a woman. I was absolutely stunned by the self-recognition.

If only I'd had the guts to transition then! But of course it was the dark ages, and where to start? The only woman here who said she transitioned that long ago turned out to be a fraud.

:) Lallie

[Marcelle]

Hello Pam,

I guess I kind of don't fit the status quo here in that while I knew I was always wired differently from the other boys, I never felt truly a girl albeit I had various indicators at a young age. I socialized boy, liked all things boy, dressed boy and whatnot but part of me longed for the pretty clothes my sisters and female cousins wore, I socialized girl to some extent as my extended family with the exception to two uncles were women/girls (mother, sisters, aunts, grandmother, female cousins). Who knows, perhaps I was just suppressing/denying which continued well into my adulthood . . . but deep down there was something which I could not put my finger on.

Flash forward to three years ago and my world collapsed. There was not one thing but given my job I guess you can only play foot loose and fancy free with your mortality until you realize you only get to go around once in the world and if you are not happy, then it is a waste. I became depressed, angry, violent and explosive and entered a very dark period in my life. My mind became very chaotic and confused. If you have ever heard an orchestra warm up before a performance, instruments doing their own thing, no melody, nonsensical noise . . . that was my mind. Then in all this darkness and noise, a lone melodious sound emerged from the chaos and this is when I understood she had always been a force in my life and realized she was part of me and as much as I wanted to silence her . . . indeed cut her from my life. I continued to deny but the harder I tried, the more angry I became and the more angry I became, the more dark and depressed I became because the noise returned. So . . . I let her out, slowly at first leading to over almost two years of therapy, dressing, soul searching, crying, happiness, more crying and more therapy. It was not until the day realized there never was a him only a her and he was just a place holder in my life allowing her to grow internally, giving her the strength to finally stand on her own two feet and then finally I only saw her when I looked in the mirror irrespective of how I was dressed or even clothed. She may look like him and people will only see the stark reality of masculinity when they see me in public, but at that moment to me she was beautiful and truly a woman.

At that point she brought harmony to the chaotic sounds of my mind and the true peace and contentment I had never known my entire life . . . I knew this was real because I finally smiled and it was genuine.

Cheers

Marcelle

[Angela Campbell]

I always knew, from my first memories. It just took 50 years to get past the fear and actually do something about it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I never knew...
i doubted all through...
I could not intellectually break through my internal defenses and fears..
on the other hand..

I wished i was a girl from my earliest rememberance..once i discovered clothes(womens) i never went a day without a stash somewhere...when i dated and romanced women, i actually wished i was them...and i had to "fantasize" that i was female to be able to get through anything sexual...over the years i took stupid risks and found myself in hotel parking lots taking videos of myself at 2am(just one example).... my life was walking between raindrops....
on and on...decade after decade..

in the end , i decided ANYTHING is better than living like that...

one thing i did and still do to avoid all this imponderable stuff is to focus on the dysphoria....if its bad, you gotta do something...

i've also learned that our minds are infinitely different...words cant do justice to the crazy thoughts each of us deals with so reading all these notes generates alot of empathy/sympathy because i know how hard it probably was for each of us but i don't find that understanding the specifics really matters all that much...

surely "i knew" the whole time!!!! but i don't really know what that means because of my maze like thinking process

[Suzanne F]

I knew so early but I just held it down with all my might. Then I applied that strategy to all my life. That doesn't lead to a fulfilling existence. I am sitting here in Starbucks waiting for a doctor appointment. No one has really noticed me but I feel so complete and happy to be here! That is how I know. I feel like my life is mine and not someone else's movie that I am watching from a detached viewpoint. Yes there are days when I ask myself whether I truly know. Then there are so many other moments when I smile to myself and just breathe!
Suzanne

[Starling]

For me, the biggest immediate consequence of self-realization: as soon as I knew I already was a woman--rather than simply wished I were--I completely lost interest in making any new friends or taking on any new activities or responsibilities, as a man. It became a terrible waste of my limited time and energy to create new, superficial relationships. I need all my personal resources to achieve my goal.

:) Lallie

[flatlander_48]

I suspect I still have quite a few repressed memories around sexuality and gender identity. Some years ago I did some work on that and did uncover a few. What I remembered involved some degree of molestation by a family member. But, I do have early memories of being "different", but whether that was before, during or after the memories of molestation I can't say.

While I was aware of this difference well before pre-teen years, I didn't know enough to say that it was related to sexuality, gender identity or both. I had no vocabulary for it. In retrospect, it turns out to have been both.

I was in my mid-40's when I had my first intimate encounter with another man. What I noticed was that I didn't have to hesitate, think about it or try to figure it out. I just Knew. It surprised me. It also surprised my partner when I told him that he was my first. I think how it works for me is a separation between gender and eroticism. Evidently they are independent.

The reason I mention this is that there is a parallel for me when I first started to dress. There is no definable point where I can say that my thoughts and perceptions switch to female. It just happens in a very seamless way. I was aware of very very little shame and guilt when I dressed. It felt like I was filling in this blank that had never been filled before. Also, it never seemed like there was a male and female version of me. There was just one version and the only difference was that some thoughts and feelings came more to the surface, and others receded, depending upon which mode I was in. It all seemed so easy. There was no big hurdle to get over; metaphorically, no major shift such as turning off a light in one room and turning on the light in the adjacent one. It was as though one light was on and the other was dimmed a bit.

Fortunately, whatever degree of dysphoria that I have is not enough to make me feel uncomfortable as Don. I was asked that once; if I ever felt presenting as male was a burden. No, I don't think it has ever been. Similarly, I don't feel uncomfortable presenting as female either. Evidently the time that I am able to spend as DeeAnn is sufficient enough to keep things in balance. In that respect, I think I am very lucky.

DeeAnn

[Stephanie Sometimes]

I have always known, since my first memories as a child, and I fought it and suppressed it for almost my entire life. Sometimes very successfully suppressing it and sometimes not so well. Only in the last couple of years the universe has conspired to allow me to realize how terribly unhealthy and destructive it was to suppress it and that the time has never been better, in my lifetime anyway, to allow my true nature to express herself.

Stephanie

[LeaP]

I never knew...
i doubted all through...

... i don't find that understanding the specifics really matters all that much...

surely "i knew" the whole time!!!! but i don't really know what that means because of my maze like thinking process

Exactly. The perspective on the specifics not mattering retrospective for me, however. Digging through all that seems to be a necessary part of the process, but once there, largely irrelevant. Interesting.

[flatlander_48]

...i don't find that understanding the specifics really matters all that much...

K M:

I agree with this, but perhaps from a slightly different viewpoint. To me, if we did know, what would it change? I believe that the reality would be the same as it is. When I've put this question to people, about the only response is that then they would stop trying to figure it out. But the thing is, that is ALWAYS within our power whether we know or not. Further, I would have to wonder if buried in the thought of knowing is the notion that one would then be able to "fix" it. However we got there, gender identity is rooted very deeply in our psyche. I don't think we could change that any more than we can change our sexual orientation.

DeeAnn

[pamela7]

as i thought, the "just knowing" is the centrepiece; some of us are blessed with that from the start, while others have had to "get there". I don't need any confirmatory evidence for myself, as you say, it is irrelevant now to me, but useful to express to an assessing psycho. :-)

[Nikkilovesdresses]

i dream constantly of accidents losing my testicles, constant pain there is my physical dysphoriaPamela

If not for the constant pain, do you think you might be less focused (I was going to say obsessed but decided to downgrade the drama) on removing the cause? Pain is a powerful incentive...

[pamela7]

interesting question Nikkie. Here's the strange thing, the last few weeks, a few months since i moved fully into knowing, the pain has all but gone. It was clearly a message that I received, and having done its job, it can cease to be. It focussed me, but now i don't need to relieve that pain? It seems to me appropriate to honour the message.

[flatlander_48]

p7:

Your subconscious was trying to get your attention...

DeeAnn

[pamela7]

yes, DeeAnn, it does for everyone all the time, only most of us have lost the art of listening. It's my dayjob since 2004 to read these signals; as ever they're easier to read for other people than for oneself. :-)

[flatlander_48]

as ever they're easier to read for other people than for oneself. :-)

Funny how that works, isn't it?

DeeAnn

[jamielynn_ca]

Oh Marcelle, this is so beautiful. Some of it so similar to my own story it brings back the tears right now, but instead of the tears of pain that they were a year ago, they're tears of joy that I can SEE ME when I look in the mirror.



... my world collapsed ... I became depressed ... My mind became very chaotic and confused ... an orchestra warm up before a performance.

... Then in all this darkness and noise, a lone melodious sound emerged from the chaos and this is when I understood she had always been a force in my life

... but at that moment to me she was beautiful and truly a woman.

... I knew this was real because I finally smiled and it was genuine.



I didn't really know until my 40's. The signs were there my whole life, but I didn't know what they meant. I didn't understand them. I didn't have the language to express the feelings. But then something happened I didn't expect. On one of my business trips, instead of buying the typical "necessities" of a closeted trans business traveler, I went out and purchased a casual outfit. Sandals, shorts, maybe a tank top. And I thought to myself, well that's different. Something had switched inside of me.

Then last summer my cousin died. She was six months younger than me. And suddenly I realized that when I was crying for her, I was also crying for myself. What if that were me, that if I died today, my children would never really know who I was. I would be buried "him", and I would have forever experienced the world in black and white and never really lived. Because when I am me, I see the world in color. And then I knew.

[phylis anne]

very deep thread ,
many like myself have had to wait til late in life to be as we feel ,the hardest part of the struggle is our internal one of which we have 2 .the first is our acceptance of ourself do we really feel we need to be a woman to be at peace internally wiht ourselves,2 the hardest one of all iis the one where we tell the world Iam really a woman this one is the hardest because we have lived a life of social norms as expected by society by physical birth gender ,some of the difficulty is real and yet some of it is us because of our social fears , this to date is what I have observed and experienced from the time that I have joined this group sorry for the ramble but this is how I feel NOW IF I ONLY HAD THE COURAGE TO PRACTICE WHAT I JUST PREACHED lol
hugs phylis anne

[Wendy me]

no one has to tell you nor do have to question ... if your a cd its a game a thirill that you can put away when you need or have to ... if your a woman inside she is going to pop out and honey you can't put that away......

[Georgette_USA]

When I started to read this thread I thought it was geared toward TS being in the TS Forum. But re-reading Pamela7 original post I am not so sure. Especially item # 4. And perplexed with item # 3. Are these a little tongue-in-cheek comments.

I doubt my internal revelations are much different then others. They may have just occurred earlier then some, and I acted on them early.

Confused in my teens in the 60s. Then Navy and was able to experiment, got caught, life didn't end. After Navy was truly able to explore and read as much as possible. Got a time of clarity in my life. And the rest is history.

[pamela7]

No, Georgette, they are not tongue-in-cheek, they are real, observable phenomena. It would seem most my life I so suppressed my feminine side that it made me physically poorly balanced, and yes, since she has come out to play, I've become better and better balanced. Late-onset is a different path from lifelong, so perhaps that explains to some extent the different experiences?

[sarahcsc]

In general, two things have to occur before I truly know what I want:

1. Explore all other options that I "don't want" until I'm left with the only option "I want"
2. To own my fate

The first is always a long and meandering process, often involving a lot of disappointment and frustration. The second is usually a split second decision, although I kept going back to the first.

But most importantly, I can only understand "what I want" in very limited and concrete terms. It was never about "wanting to be a woman" because "woman" to me is very abstract and difficult to conceptualise. Therefore, the transition happened in small steps without me being aware of the big picture. I quote something beautiful that Zooey had written which I thought encapsulated my experience very well:

"...I decided to start laser on my beard. Not because I decided to transition, but simply because, I thought, “I’m going to be presenting female a lot more, and this will make things easier for me.” Even if I was 50/50, I’m lazy and shaving so often and so close left my face irritated... Months had now passed since deciding to be myself. I had accepted that I was definitely not "just a crossdresser", but I would constantly tell my therapist, “Well, I’m not transitioning though.” She would smile and nod, and we'd move on. One day, while I was out with my two best girlfriends in the world, it hit me like a ton of bricks...I was already transitioning..." Zooey, 01-11-2016, 11:25 AM, "How I Came To Transition"

Like Zooey, I knew I wanted to present more feminine and there were many steps to take to achieve that. Every step involved a bit of courage as every step chipped away a bit of my past while forging my future.

To be honest, I doubt if I will ever know that I want to be a "woman" for sure not only because it is a vague concept, but also because it is difficult to leave behind a previous identity that I have built my world around.

To aspire to be a "woman" is more like a destination, albeit elusive. It is like trying to find El Dorado or Atlantis. I'm not sure if I will ever find what I'm looking for.

But if somebody asked me "where are you heading my friend?", I'll say to him "I don't know, but I'm enjoying the journey".

Love,
S

[pamela7]

that's a lovely post Sarah, thank you.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

pls explain what you mean by late onset is different than lifelong...are you talking about simply the number of years living as a man?

[pamela7]

just seems to be that way from the posts on the forum. I guess once you realise it becomes the same emotionally in terms of experiencing dysphoria, but there's a wealth of life-experience differences between the two demographics; childhood role-play, habituation in feminine roles. Slight feeling of late-onset being seen as maybe 2nd class TS citizens. But maybe I'm simply misreading posts, and yes, simply the number of years of living with consciously-aware dysphoria is one example.

[LeaP]

Sara, comments on knowing and wanting raise such thoughts...

They can be tightly-coupled, or completely independent. You can know and not want, a place many find themselves. You can not know and want, sometimes used to describe the gender-variant or CDs. And of course, you can not want until you know, which is how you describe yourself. But there is no assurance that the two will ever be in sync.

Open-ended explorations are great in some respects, but since possibilities are endless, so potentially is the journey. I read an interesting piece recently on the business use of the "journey" concept. The point was that though it is misused to mean any progression of steps, planned or not, destination intended or unknown, etc. real journeys are always bounded in various ways.

The steps I've taken are similar to yours and Zooey's, and led to the same conclusion - that transition had already started before I was consciously acting on it. My therapist saw this long before I did. Essentially you are already creating the boundaries that define and bound your journey and, in all likelihood, are already heading for the (same) destination. How one breaks through the consciousness barrier varies. In my case, it was the realization that taking a particular action had turned from tentative experimentation or a fearful step into the unknown, to acting in a way that simply made sense. "Of course" is the way I've described how I experience this. Perhaps in consequence, I no longer find that decisions are the exercises in logic they once were, at least for some things.

Along the same line, my focus on "womanhood" faded. Knowledge alone of who and what you are doesn't determine ANYTHING. Not how you feel about yourself, what actions you take, your relationships, or your psychological condition. A point of knowledge is often reached in trans people before there is any level of integration, and the latter does not come about directly as a consequence of conscious effort.

If and when you reach the point of integration, or perhaps at some critical level of integration (which I think better) the *concern* over the maddening ambiguities of gender stops being a pre-occupation. In fact, it may only crop up as a thought at all because someone ELSE brings it up.

If I can offer any practical advice from all of this, it is to pursue the integration point with a competent therapist. You may well reach it on your own - many do - but when it is a central concern, when "decisions" are being made but unconscious, some help might, well, help.

[Zooey]

Ignoring a few "experiential differences" listed that I don't think are necessarily relevant, I want to understand what "late onset" means, because I don't understand the concept by way of the word.

"Late acknowledgment" is a concept I understand. There was an issue that was always present, and presented itself in ways that, for the individual, remained dismissable for some time.

I transitioned at 35. I began acknowledging what was ACTUALLY going on at 33, with a few bursts previously in life.

I'll admit that I'm dubious of the notion of "late onset", because my gender never changed; I learned more about it. I always had dysphoria; I was fortunate to not be crippled by it, but I did not know what to call it, and I thought everybody had it.

I do not believe that I know anybody whose gender has actually changed, although people I know can feel free to correct me.

[LeaP]

...I want to understand what "late onset" means, because I don't understand the concept by way of the word. ...

To my thinking, it's figuring out what's going on after about age 5 ... (which will disappoint many who believe in one particular version of the Great Transsexual Hierarchy)

[pamela7]

Hi Zooey,
I'd be happy to call it "late acknowledgment"/"late-realisation". The "onset" comes from, in my perception, the uncontrollable urge to dress, to present, to be the female - the time the bag is opened, the cat is out and nothing is going to stop it. Happy to be wrong. xxx

[flatlander_48]

I do not believe that I know anybody whose gender has actually changed, although people I know can feel free to correct me.

I would have to think that gender identity is innate in the same sense as sexual orientation. You've got what you got. When you realize it and respond to can take many years, but both are always there waiting to be discovered.

DeeAnn

[Jessica EnFemme]

I would have to think that gender identity is innate in the same sense as sexual orientation. You've got what you got. When you realize it and respond to can take many years, but both are always there waiting to be discovered.

So this brings up these kids nowadays who say they're "gender-fluid" and "non-binary." Feel male sometimes, feel female other times, feel neither, feel both, don't really think about it because I'm just me.

Maybe this "late onset" idea is someone like that who finally settles on an identity?

[RylieM]

For me it was quite a few things Ill some of them list em. Thinking back to my childhood I used to sneak cosmo mags while my mom was checking out at a supermarket id read em right there, I envied my sister when she started puberty, I used to steal her clothes and sleep in em. I've always been depressed and semi suicidal while not always over not being a woman I have cried myself to sleep a lot over that or just being a complete and utter failure as a man. Always playing female characters in ever video game i've ever played and wish I was her even modeling quite a few as I saw myself I also recreated myself both as a male and female brother and sister 4e dungeons and dragons characters using my female name for her and a derivative of my male name for him. When ever I walked by the women's clothing section in any store eyeing it out of the corner of my eye wishing I could go find a nice outfit in there all of my life. Whenever a nicely dressed woman walked by me thinking how that outfit might look on me or wishing I could be her. The final nail in the coffin was watching all these testimonials on youtube and reading them here and the other 2 forums i'm signed up on plus getting some women's clothing again for the first time in 16 ish years and truly feeling comfortable i'm happy when im wearing my bras/panties/forms i fell like shit when i'm not.

[karenpayneoregon]

Looking back in time, those memories of childhood were confusing, didn’t know what to make of things. Didn’t fit in gender-wise with the rest of the kids whom I grow up with. The stereotypes of the time dictated who I should be and conform too but rebelled many times yet ended up being suppressed by my parents (so it seemed). After genital surgery my mother confided with me that she knew I was different and looking back could easily see me as a daughter which she does now.

As with many of us as the years flew by it became increasingly more difficult to confine myself to what life had given me, a male physical body with the female within. Well the female finally won. In so many words my therapist said that I was so ready for this and understood completely that there were zero doubts of me being female trapped in a male body for 50 plus years. Should had listened to the universe long ago.

[flatlander_48]

So this brings up these kids nowadays who say they're "gender-fluid" and "non-binary." Feel male sometimes, feel female other times, feel neither, feel both, don't really think about it because I'm just me.

Maybe this "late onset" idea is someone like that who finally settles on an identity?

In the case of people who are fluid, that is their natural state. Evidently they are not rooted firmly in either male or female gender. They encompass both, but for some reason they move back and forth. I have no idea why they would feel a particular way on any given day, but for whatever reason, it does change.

I wouldn't say settle on an identity. I would say people eventually figure out what it is and claim it. To me, when you say settle, it suggests that it is in some way it is a choice and that wouldn't be true.

DeeAnn

[pamela7]

Maybe this "late onset" idea is someone like that who finally settles on an identity?

Maybe your wording is not quite intended how it might be interpreted? In a sense, in my experience, I had not thought of it, but from when I did, gradually it did emerge and it settled. As DeeAnn suggests, at no point during this process was there a "choice" for me, just that finally the inevitable conclusion, knowing, insight, acceptance and understanding all dawned and now "it just is as it is".

This is fundamentally different to fluid where a person is one thing one moment and another the next. Maybe it is possible for a fluid person to end up as one or the other in some cases, and not in others. If there is one thing this forum has taught me the last year (and it's taught me many), it is that there is no universal reason nor theory, we are a collective of different people on apparently similar journeys or with similar interests, but at times we are still living in different universes.

[PretzelGirl]

My experience with fluid individuals is not that they are male one day and female the next. There are people I have met that feel that way, but a very small percentage. If you look at gender as a spectrum from male to female, the majority land on a a spot in-between and that is where they stay. There is a discovery process that goes with it. A friend of mine described it for me this way (they were female identified at birth). They try leggings today and don't like them. They try yoga pants tomorrow and like them. They try growing body hair and like it. And so on. A process of exploration of different items that fit gender norms but not confined by experiencing only male or only female, but experiencing all of it and picking what they like. They then went to a drawing of a spectrum and said I identify right here, and put a dot on the line about 2/3's of the way from Female to Male, so they feel more Male then Female.

I have a theory that is only backed up by my opinion which I base on personal observations. We wait long in our lives to transition and after all of the dysphoric build up, we tend to flop from one binary end to the other and enjoy experiencing what has been denied to us all our lives. Kids today experience their gender at a young age and therefore don't have this major build-up. So I believe this is why we see far more fluid identities these days as our youth explore themselves and are able to own the pieces of gender they like and leave the rest alone. So the future will flip and binary identities will be the minority and fluid identities will be predominate. We shall see....

[flatlander_48]

S:

By what you say, it would seem that we're using the term differently from the usual meaning of the word. Fluid implies change, but that's not really part of your overall thought save for the "very small percentage" reference.

DeeAnn

[Robin414]

...So the future will flip and binary identities will be the minority and fluid identities will be predominate. We shall see....

Wow Sue, I seriously see that day coming, maybe even in my lifetime (I hope), I could be an old fart who 'gets it' ☺

[pamela7]

what you say makes sense, Sue, xx

[Gerrijerry]

I always knew, from my first memories. It just took 50 years to get past the fear and actually do something about it.

I agree with many others. I always felt female. I can't remember anytime I did not feel that way.
It was the fear to get past that was my hold out.