Is it really about passing??

[St. Eve]

OK, so for the decades I was in the closet, I fantasized about really passing and living life as an accepted woman.
Now that I am coming out and accepting my dual gendered nature, I am less inclined to want to pass and more inclined to want to be accepted for who I really am - a biologically male person who experiences both gender realities inside. Would I like to blend, yes. Would I like to be accepted by cis gendered men and women as I am, blending or not, expressing socially unacceptable mixtures of gender - YES.

Questions, comments, thoughts, complaints???

Peace
Stevie

[CarlaWestin]

Passing is more of a benchmark goal but not exactly a necessity.

[Kate Simmons]

For myself it's mostly about being comfortable with who I am. :battingeyelashes::)

[mykell]

:dh: here we go again :stirthepot:

[Krisi]

You are free to do what you want as long as you're not hurting yourself or your loved ones. Will you be accepted by men and women as you are? Probably not.

Crossdressing is viewed by most of the public as a fetish or a mental illness. "Dual gendered" is certainly viewed as a mental illness by many people. Some people will accept you, many will tolerate you. Some will try to "fix" you. Some will go out of their way to avoid you and a few will try to harm you.

Once you come out of the closet, you can't go back in. This is something you should think long and hard about. Only you can decide if it's worth the trouble it will cause.

[Teresa]

Stevie,
I look back to some early pictures I posted and asked the question do I pass even tough I didn't show my face, ( Long story about an argument with a tree and it came off best !) I received some very encouraging replies, being in the closet is always that goal to feel you're good enough to finally venture out the door.

Now I've done it the question doesn't have the same importance, I've met other CDers and members of the public, the fact is it's me dealing with my needs, not putting on an act to be a glamorous woman , because if I did I'd fall off my 4" heels flat on my face !
Do I blend ? do I pass ? does it matter , if you're OK with people they'll talk to you, maybe about CDing issues if they're curious . Last time out I got into a conversation with the hotel owner and his wife about cruising , at one point I admitted to the wife that my dream would be to spend the evenings dressed, the husband turned to me and said I wouldn't sit next to you at dinner, his wife said he wouldn't have realised until you spoke !

Krisi,
The majority of people are fully aware that CDing isn't a mental illness, perhaps they would like to think so because that would raise their hopes of a cure , I'm sure my wife would overdose me if that were the case.

[Allison_CD]

People are afraid to post pics on here as they do not pass.
In reality many many CD ers are fat hairy men. Nothing wrong with that I exclaim but get real gurls. xx

[ClosetED]

I view it as accepting I am a hetero CDer. We are the lucky ones who can choose to present as male or female as we choose, not being stuck in only one appearance. While we would like society to be accepting of people who flip back and forth, that is rare (Erika Linder, Elliott Sailors, Casey Legler, Andrej Pejic at first). But society is making progress and those who don't realize we can present as either appearance seem to mostly accept what their eyes see and lets that be enough.
Hugs, Ellen

[Krisi]

I think people are afraid to post pictures here because of what might become of them. Most of us don't want our family members, neighbors and co-workers or boss to see photos of us dressed in fake boobs and miniskirts. Once you put something on the Internet, you lose control of it.

Some people don't care and that's fine as long as they understand the risks.

[Georgina]

I have always thought passing was an extension of the closet. You are out but you are not out.

[Jaymees22]

I like to think of myself as a plausible woman instead of passable. Meaning if someone sees me out and about they think that's probably a woman, but if they don't so be it. Hugs Jaymee

[Kimberly2112]

The general public will have a lot less trouble dealing with you if they think you're a cisgender person on one of the poles of the gender binary. Otherwise, like Krisi says, you get reactions ranging from total acceptance to hostility. I think society is become more accepting of nonbinary presentations, but we still have a long way to go.

If we're talking about what makes you happy, there's no right or wrong answer. Some want to be totally immersed in a different gender role, others would rather mix and match. I think the trick is to find the best balance between what makes you happy, what's possible and what people can accept.

[heatherdress]

The perception that you "pass" (or blend, or do not attract attention, or look female) and the belief that you are "accepted" are totally different.

Passing is based primarily on visual appearance (includes beauty, clothing, make-up, hair, mannerisms, voice, build, size) and is influenced by setting, observers, time of day, lighting, proximity, distractions.

Acceptance depends on other's beliefs, education, experiences, culture, ethnicity, religion, frame-of-mind.

- You can pass and be accepted to some or to most, you can pass and not be accepted to some or to most, you can not pass and be accepted to some or to most, or you can not pass and not be accepted to some or to most, regardless of how you define passing, acceptance and degree of acceptance.
- You can remain in the closet even if you pass or even if you would be accepted - because you don't want to be known as a crossdresser to family or friends or occupation

I think passing or blending to some degree is comforting, acceptance by others is something we have minimal ability to control and influence, but acceptance of ourselves, whether in the closet or out, is what is most important. Do you really want to live your day-to-day life worrying about the general public?

It's really about what you feel about yourself and how you live your life.

[Pat]

Re: "passing (is) an extension of the closet." I really like that metaphor. It works for my approach to life, but it's reasonable for others to have their own standards.

Edit: I think it depends a lot on your internal reason for passing. If you do it because it gives you joy, that's a totally valid thing. If you do it because you fear the consequences of NOT passing, then the closet metaphor is probably just. In my case I don't want people to think I'm actually a woman -- that to me is dishonest. But I do get joy out of looking womanly. So I dress, sometimes to the nines, but don't try to pass. Some are like me, some are not. We all have a right to be who we are. ;)

[Jenniferathome]

Stevie, there was a time just after I came out to my wife where I thought passing as a genetic female was important. As a result, I was always searching for that one special accessory or outfit that would make that magic happen. I can tell you now, that was wasted time and effort.

Cross dressers do not pass as genetic women. Yes, I burst many bubbles with that statement but it's truth is undeniable. "Blending," to me, means not being noticed. I think that is possible for some cross dressers if dressed appropriately for the time, place, and your age, as most people are wrapped up in their own world. Still, even blending is impossible for some cross dressers due to the obviousness of size and/or girth. There is a bell curve of blending and as yo get to the edges, blending stops.

No, that stated, what I have come to learn after being out many times is that if one is confident, that confidence somehow affects the perception of the normals. If you think you belong, the average normal will read you as belonging. I do not pass a genetic woman, ever. I suspect that I blend for the most part until I have a personal interaction and then I am likely to be perceived as trans. My wife thinks that is true. But what is important is that I am comfortable and that puts others in a more receptive state.

[Jennifer in CO]

when I transitioned back in the early 80's, my "goal" was to not so much be accepted as a woman, but not look like a "man in a dress"...ae to blend. After a couple of years, letting my 32C's show a bit and long curly hair to the middle of my back made being accepted as a woman that much easier even tho I was over 6ft. I regularly wore lower cut blouses and dresses so that there was no mistaking I was a woman at first (or second) glance.

So to me, "passing" just means to "pass you by" and not notice anything out of the expected norm...

[docrobbysherry]

It must be nice to want to present as a man in a dress, Stevie. Because u don't have be concerned about how fem u look or if u may pass occasionally. On the other hand, you'll have to develope a thick skin. And, get used to being treated different than you're used to. And, take it from me, it's NOT all politically correct SA's trying to pretend you're just another GG customer.:straightface:

The more I go out the more I feel that dressing to blend is a cop out unless u can pass. When u pass, people treat u like a woman without thinking about it. It's happened to me on a few occasions at Halloween. When it happens to u, YOU'LL KNOW!:D

Since I can't pass up close, I believe dressing to blend is a waste of time. So, I now dress in outfits I enjoy and feel good wearing. That way, along with the hoots, WTF's, and overly helpful SA's, I may get a few honest compliments about my clothes!:daydreaming:

[Eva Bella]

Like the OP, I enjoy being who I am. Although I've got a curvy rear and soft facial features for a guy, my arms and legs are far too muscular to pass for a genetic woman.

I've definitely attracted a lot of attention on my few outings, but honestly, a genetic girl with my build wearing tight and short clothing probably would too. Some people don't like to see a man in womens clothes, and some people don't like to see a woman with muscles.

But screw them. It's about being yourself, being confident, and asserting the fact that you belong.

[Rachael Leigh]

Stevie yes I so agree and the more I go out the more I feel that is possible.
I've gone out knowing I'm not fully passing but usually feel comfortable and in general seem accepted
Yes I'm ok with that
I also would say that passing is not the be all that is end all either. Just be yourself and enjoy, it's what I've found to be true

[suzanne]

Interesting thread. Does it reflect the beginning of a refreshing change of direction, to where the goal is being comfortable being YOURSELF, whoever that is? That's what works for me. I just try to make my "guy in a dress" presentation look as good as possible, to the point where it looks natural for me to be there in a skirt. I never thought I would hear in this forum that passing could be thought of as a form of hiding in the closet.

[Tracii G]

When the comments start referring to "binary this binary that" like its some sort of scientific rule is where I have problems with discussions like this.
Hell science doesn't know how YOU feel about yourself they just guess and make up stuff.
Be yourself and be confident and most of all be happy.
Do we ever pass? Sure I suppose but people don't pay close attention most of the time. The fear of not passing is what keeps a lot in the closet.
Once you get over that fear passing is a moot point.
Go out do what you normally do dressed to fit in your surroundings and you will most likely not be noticed.

[ariannavt]

For many reasons I would like to "pass", but I think an important step for me was realizing that I don't HAVE TO pass. My gender presentation is for me. It's not a show I am putting on for others. Of course, if you really want the world to treat you as a (insert appropriate gender here) then passing can really help clear some of the hurdles.

[amy1989]

When I was a teen I wouldnt have considered going out unless I passed. Now i think I need to go out even if I don't pass. Like other members have said I now think it's more important to feel comfortable than to pass.

[josie_S]

I saw this video on youtube (see below) about a woman who coaches cis men on femininity and I was particularly struck by the host/journalist's opinions on what being feminine is (as well as some of the cis women she interviewed on the street) and how put off they were (at least initially) that anyone can teach/coach femininity, as if there is one standard for being a woman/feminine. She said Monica Prata (the coach) was "straight out of a rom-com" and was offended at her idea of what being a woman meant since she (the journalist) has personally spent so much time and energy reshaping and carving out her own persona as a woman, consciously going counter what she sees as a 50s idea of what a woman is supposed to be since it's one that has been shaped by patriarchy and heteronormativity. I may not be summing it up fully here (its a 17 minute video but if you have the time, I think it's worth it) but I hope you get my drift...

As I read this thread and have thought about "passing" and "blending" and "looking like a *real* woman" when I dress or shop or go out or all three, I can't help but notice that my shoulders are broad, my voice is deep, my arms and chest aren't hairy but my beard is heavy, I don't have hips, and, no matter how tight I pull the corset, I won't have the exact shape of a woman...and then I realized I was doing exactly what that journalist was initially resentful about. How could I be so beholden to patriarchy when I'm wearing mascara and Chanel No.5? (It was probably a Britney Spears scent that I bought at Wal mart but you get my point :P) I'm one of the good guys! (as it were...lol)

Then something else dawned on me, and I hope this is helpful here: I don't know why I like wearing nails and lipstick and panties and heels. I don't know why I like wearing wigs and dresses and skirts and pretty jewelry. I don't know why I like lining my eyes and fanning out my lashes or seeing myself in the mirror after all that effort. I just like it. Because, isn't dressing up fun? Isn't getting dolled or dudded up fun? It is to me. It's about having fun. Enjoying myself. Enjoying the process of it all, even shaving. I think I've realized it's not about passing. I think it's about how much fun I have. Sorry for the rant, but I think that journalist would admit that even if she doesn't dress up like she's out of a rom-com, she still enjoys how she dresses up. So do I. I bet we all do :)




https://youtu.be/ACVM1BUY8tY

[aprilgirl]

For me personally, my goal has always been to be presentable. I may pass to anyone who doesn't give me a second glance or thought, but that's where it ends, and that's okay.

[Georgette_USA]

Interesting thread.

As a Post-Op in the 70s, the ultimate was to pass/blend/stealth/invisible. Confidence in yourself goes a long way for that. Never thought of it as a form of hiding in a closet. Society had very little knowledge of TS back then so that helped.

I guess I did well enough as NO one has ever questioned me. Had NO problem meeting men in non-trans clubs, of course men tend to just want a hookup there. Nowadays as an older person, people don't really look at you very much.

Whenever someone made the public eye like in the last few years. My partner and I would think about it, especially if we were together somewhere. Never with extended family as I have always been out with them from the start. Only work that knew was my job when I transitioned there. Jobs after that there were no problems.

When I go out places with all my new TG/CD friends, few of them worry about passing. I see quite a few that to me would have NO problem with "passing". But not sure if others see me as the same as them, but I don't care anymore. We go out in mixed groups of TG/TS/CD also wives/GF/BF.

Jennifer
You mention transitioning in the early 80s. Was this a full on or partial. If full on what year and age. Still looking for others from back then. Please pm if you want to answer in private.

[Kandi Robbins]

Do I pass as a woman? Not a chance.

Do I "blend"? Maybe.

Am I accepted by "mainstream" society? Absolutely! I frequently interact within mainstream groups when CDing and have been openly welcome. In fact, I have been told by some that is what interested them in me. Believe me, without the makeup and cute outfits (OK, I'm editorializing here), as a boring old guy, I'm not as interesting (frankly to me or others).

You've read it here many times, be confident, smile. I absolutely believe I am perceived by all who meet me as an honest person about who I am and as such, I am generally accepted. People are attracted to people that are NOT phonies, that are authentic, open and vulnerable to those around them. I go everywhere and anywhere I want and have never had an open negative reaction (I'm sure there have been many eye rolls).

[Liz57]

Not sure I'm very qualified to even discuss this since I've only been out once late at night driving around. Certainly wouldn't have passed since I didn't even have a wig then.

To me it is more a matter of passing in my own mind. I want so much to be a girl and when I dress I want to do all of the little things and nuances that make me just like a woman. For that reason I want desperately to pass.

I have no delusions that I'll pass as a real woman, well maybe a rather homely one but for my own satisfaction I'd like to come as close as possible. It would make it easier on the nerves and self confidence if most people didn't immediately react when seeing me.

Liz

[Ressie]

I saw a CD a couple of weeks ago at TJ Maxx that was very passable. I like it when I'm not sure at first and have to look for clues. I didn't stare or say anything and I felt happy for her.

A couple of days ago I saw an CD at the grocery store that didn't pass at all. The second I saw her (from behind) I knew. Unrealistic wig, skinny butt in pants - when I caught a glimpse of her face the makeup wasn't done well either. I doubt this person passed to anyone and I felt bad for her.

I haven't been out much, but I would strive to look like the one in the first paragraph. I don't wanna look like I'm costumed for halloween. I would prefer the general public to not notice and for the discerning eye to be unsure (at least from 10 yards away :battingeyelashes:).

[PattyT]

Although passing when dressed would be ideal, as would just blending in or even accpeted. These can be very ephemeral goals. It's hard to tell on any given occasion if any of them has been successfully reached. On one day you might pass, if only even by luck, while on another day you might just blend in. Acceptance could refer to the people around you in a mall, for example, or people you interact with such as friends. On another day you might be read. With one outfit you might succeed but with another you might fail. How can you really tell?
There are a lot of good comments on this thread but these three really sum up the general feeling perhaps:

"Since I can't pass up close, I believe dressing to blend is a waste of time. So, now I dress in outfits I enjoy and feel good wearing. That way, along with hoots, WFT's，and overly helpful SA's, I may get a few honest complements about my clothes." Docroberrysherry.
"For me personally, my goal has always been to be presentable. I may pass to anyone who doesn't give me a second glance or thought, but that's where it ends, and that's okay." Aprilgirl
"It's about being yourself, being confident, and aserting the fact that you belong." Eva Bella

In other words, dress up to please yourself and don't worry about what others might think. For the most part people are probably not going to notice you much aor pay much attention to you. Most will simply ignore you. So why bother?
The important thing is to experience that part of yourself you can only when you are dressed. Enjoy the feeling of relaxation, comfort, and just plain enjoyment and satisfaction you get when you're out en femme. Go out dressed with confidence and that smile on your face and you'll have a good time.

[Georgette_USA]

A couple of days ago I saw an CD at the grocery store that didn't pass at all. I doubt this person passed to anyone and I felt bad for her.

I haven't been out much, .

She was out at a grocery store doing her own thing and YOU felt bad for her.

She may not have passed in your opinion, but at least she was out.

[sometimes_miss]

The majority of people are fully aware that Crossdressers believe CDing isn't a mental illness
FIFY. There are still huge numbers of people in the general population who think we're mentally ill, and many of those think we're a danger to the women and children as well. As evidenced by all the support that is being given to the laws recently passed regarding bathroom access and the right to refuse service to anyone LGBT. It almost exclusively seems to be coming from the religious right, and, seeing as more than half of the population is religious, you can pretty much guess that the people who think you're crazy numbers in the tens, if not hundreds of millions on the North American continent alone.

[BillieAnneJean]

A CDer could be considered to "pass" dressed in stripper wear and attracting all kinds of attention as a woman dressed like,,,,,,,,,well a stripper.

So take a look back at my picture posts. If you will, read some of my threads on "passing" versus blending. And if you will, check out my blog. Many times I have, through my writings, encouraged people to forget "passing".

I go OUT a lot. That is all I know. I never was in the closet. I do not pass. From ten feet I do not pass. HOWEVER at even less than ten feet and a brief time, like walking by, I am accepted for what I am projecting.

Let's face it, the sales person, anyone at three to six feet will recognize our charade. But should we care? Walking down the street, through the mall, we are either walking with the flow and fooling those going ng the same way if we have a bit of hip swing, or against the flow and in view only a few seconds. If we blend then we are by them before they notice. In the restaurant are they going to let their food get cold to have a lengthy howl at our expense? And disturb the other guests?

If we do a good enough job, if we make them take a few seconds to ponder the BIG. Question, they will loose interest, be long gone walking, or even decide that they are not 100% sure and not take a chance on offending what MIGHT be a real woman.

That is why I try to dress appropriately, albeit more dressy than the typical. Who knows, maybe I am a gal on her way to or from a job in an "office dressy" environment.
Whatever. In the last just over three years, I have been to malls, stores, you name it. I have had FUN, almost zero issues, and wouldn't want to think of what I would have missed had I not done so.

IF going out is your quest, Find yourself a support group that goes out. Or a few friends that do. And ask them to help you over the threshold. That first step is the psychological mountain range that once you are past it, seems no more than a speed bump.

Please don't let the all but unattainable keep you from your dreams. Even 80% or whatever percent is WAY better than zero. Blending works for this old hag. It may be all you need. But you won't know unless you try.

I am having SUCH FUN!

[Erin Lafleur]

Hi Stevie,
To pass or not to pass, that is the question... You will likely get opinions from one end of the spectrum to the other and they will fairly represent the diversity in this community. I am a CD and have never entertained thoughts of being transgender as that is just not me. I enjoy wearing women's clothing and feeling feminine but have never felt compelled to question my true gender. There are so many variations on the theme that passing is important to some and not to others. Only you will know, despite everyone's best intentions.
That being said, I can relate my personal experience which may or may not be relevant to you.
A couple of years ago, I accepted a consulting position in another city for six months. I didn't know a soul and it was a relatively large city with a very active CD meet up group. Since I had been CD'ing to some extent for most of my life, I thought that it was the perfect chance to take it all the way so to speak and venture out into the public to see exactly what that felt like. Would it be liberating? Exciting? Scary? I felt that I owed it to myself to experience being out and about and to answer that eternal question in my own mind.
I had my foundation done at MAC, bought most of my wardrobe en drab (shoes, makeup skirt, blouse, panties, bra, stockings, garters) and found a great little boutique that catered to CD's for my breastforms, wig, heels, corset etc. I bought my makeup and nails at various drug stores and purse, jewellery etc at one of the local malls. It's a pretty significant investment in time and money to appear passable, let me tell you! For my first evening out with the group, I prepared hours in advance. A lovely fragrant bubble bath with a glass of wine, shaving my legs etc. On to my recently acquired make up mirror (the kind with the lights and close up mirror for that additional horror) and of course, another glass of wine. I must say that I really enjoyed sitting in my robe, bra and panties and once I had troweled my beard shadow into oblivion, very much enjoyed applying the rest of my makeup. It's a very sensual experience as I'm sure you probably know.
So, on with the stockings, garter belt, skirt, blouse... (another glass of wine as this was sooo enjoyable) and time to put on my four inch gorgeous hot pink stilettos (which were carefully matched to my nails and lipstick) and a last check in the mirror and I was off!
I don't know if you have ever seen one of those National Geographic documentaries where they show the newly born giraffe struggling to find their legs but trust me when I say that I was not half as graceful (I'm sure the three glasses of wine didn't help) and I damned near fell flat on my ass at one point. Another quick check in the mirror found one of my beautifully long false eyelashes firmly attached to my eyebrow and it was clearly time to call it a night.
I did eventually get out with the girls at a later date and while interesting, I wouldn't say that I feel compelled to do it on an ongoing basis. They were certainly nice and welcoming enough but beyond our mutual interest in cross dressing, I didn't feel that we had much more than that in common and conversation seemed a little stilted. I must also say that I was very anxious about passing and I just felt that I wasn't as comfortable as I had hoped or anticipated. I tried it a couple of times more and unfortunately, that feeling never left me. I gave it a reasonable chance and found that it wasn't for me.
I'm certainly glad that I gave myself that experience as I would have always wondered what it would be like and, now I know a little more about myself in that regard. I've found that passing is not a big issue for me. I don't give a crap what others think of me. Will they be accepting and respectful? Will they be mean spirited and intolerant? Again, don't care one whit and I don't feel as though I have to submit myself to the opinions of others. I truly enjoy feeling feminine in and of myself. No approval sought or required.
I know what I like. I like long luxurious bubble baths and then sitting at my makeup table in my robe, bra and panties doing my eyes, hair and lipstick. I love the feel of my hair against my cheek and the feel of my earrings against my neck. I love the feel of my skirt when it swishes against my stockings and the sound of my heels on the hardwood floors. That is what brings me pleasure in a very feminine sense. I've found that it's what works for me but at the end of the day, you won't know for sure until you try it. I'm grateful that I did....
Erin

[Robin414]

Heck no! I pass when I'm all done up but that's just not me (right now/yet), I'm much more comfortable presenting as whatever the heck I am and I find people completely get it (or maybe they just think "OMG, I better be nice or this 6'1" amazon chic will feed me a fist sandwich 😯 "

[GenieGirl]

I think for the majority of CDs it initially is about passing for many reasons ranging from safety and embarrassment to full on vanity (Caitlyn Jenner?). For me at first it was for fear as is it probably is for most. If not for my exgf I would probably not have ever went out til I was an old male. Thankfully to her she pushed me out. I do pass as female (i'd guess at least 80% of the time) and have been given that validity many times by men I meet at bars and local stores who often hit on me (and also lesbians too). These days I don't really care about having the physical makeup of a female as I used to but also wouldn't trade it for anything today.

These days I am more welcoming to let people know that I am trans when I am out (which is pretty much 100% of the time outside of work) and educate them on whatever questions they may have vs identifying as a cis female. If they don't notice or make my acquaintance then there is no reason to do the trans dance. That being said, my life as a girl is pretty boring these days outside of finding the perfect outfit or awesome sale!

[St. Eve]

Hi all y'all

Please accept my deep gratitude for every one of your posts here. I wish I had time, this week, to reply to each and every one of you, but I do not.
Your discussion and truth and opinion and experience have been SO VERY HELPFUL and soothing to me.

I am coming to agree that some part of my desire to "pass" is really about continuing to hide!!
I am grateful for this awareness....

Two experiences triggered the whole question
1) the Payless Shoe SA who obviously treated me like she was trained to (based on what I have read here) - with kindness and normalcy, followed by
2) Standing behind an older couple in the meat section of the Publix. She was looking at the prepared items wondering out loud which one they should choose for dinner. When she noticed me, she stepped aside and kindly let me get close to the shelves. She had no response to me what so ever. When I picked the meat loaf off the shelf, while I was turning I looked her way and said with my normal masculine voice, "I chose the meatloaf." She began to smile and then her eyes got big and her jaw dropped and she just stared as I turned and walked away. My first honest surprise face!! That triggered the whole thought of me just wanting to be my normal public person regardless of my dress or the perception of my maleness or my femaleness.

Thanks again for all the feedback!!
Thanks for reading my story and adding any more feedback you might have.

Peace
Stevie

[Tina81]

Jennifer,
So are you OK with being perceived as a transsexual? I think I would that would make it more comfortable for me to go out; however, I would want my family or friends to know.

[Stephanie47]

When I first donned some of my mother's clothing in my teenage years I had no thoughts of trying to pass or emulate a woman. It was just trying on her clothes. There was no sexual motivation involved. I suspect all of those who have posted desires to dress as a very young girl had no sexual motivation. Maybe it was just the clothes themselves.

As I got older and was developing a sexual identity wearing women's clothing was in conflict with my sexuality. If wearing women's clothing was (is) in conflict with the perceptions of male sexuality, how does one try to hide that conflict? Perhaps, it is trying to "pass" for a woman. If it was just the clothes, then why does a man in women's clothing seem to always wear a bra? Why, if the guy has "nothing to pack into the bra" as my wife posed to me once? And, then there's the wig. Why a wig if it is "just the clothes?"

I think I want to appear as womanly as possible because I am engaged in an activity that society does not accept. Maybe I'm trying to hide to feel more comfortable...not with my cross-dressing, i.e., wearing women's clothing, but, not to have negative interactions with the masses.

[Jenniferathome]

Jennifer,
So are you OK with being perceived as a transsexual? I think I would that would make it more comfortable for me to go out; however, I would want my family or friends to know.

Well, I don't get to choose how I am perceived but yes, it's fine. I think being perceived as "trans" is far better than "a due in a dress." While both are still quite unique in this world, I think the normals can accept/understand/get "trans" far more easily than cross dressing. However I am perceived, I do hope that it is with confidence and without shame.

[Robin414]

These days I am more welcoming to let people know that I am trans when I am out (which is pretty much 100% of the time outside of work) and educate them on whatever questions they may have vs identifying as a cis female. If they don't notice or make my acquaintance then there is no reason to do the trans dance. That being said, my life as a girl is pretty boring these days outside of finding the perfect outfit or awesome sale!

Great point Genie, me too! I actually welcome friendly and curious people, I'd love to have a nice conversation with a 'muggle' on the topic...I like to consider myself an Ambassador, at least a little bit!

[Ceera]

To me, when I go out as a woman, I do want to be seen and accepted as a woman - I want to pass. And for the most part, I am successful, and I enjoy the validation of the positive reactions to my feminine presentation. That certainly isn't the goal that all of us do or should strive for. But it is the goal that I strive for.

I can be happy presenting fully as a male, or as a 'somewhat girly guy' who has his nails done and his ears pierced, and is wearing more or less 'unisex' clothes that happen to more often than not have come from the women's department. But what makes me truly happy is doing a fully feminine presentation and pulling it off well. I do not care for presenting as male while wearing a dress or obviously feminine clothes. That just isn't me. It's fine with me if other people want to be seen as a guy in a dress, or as someone who just does whatever they please with regards to wearing female clothes, makeup and the like while not trying to complete the illusion. If that makes them happy, great! But for me, aside from a few girly traits that I keep all the time, if I want to wear obviously women's attire, then I do it on an all-or-nothing basis, and go for a full female presentation and trying to pass.

While it may be true for a lot of us that they can never "pass", it is definitely NOT true for all of us! just because an individual's personal experience says that they can never pass, they should not assume that holds true for everyone, because it does not.

There is an amazing level of diversity among cis women in terms of body type, beauty, and how far 'off the standard' their bodies are from what is accepted as a 'typical cis woman's appearance'. Just take a good look at the cis women you encounter every day. I have met women who were decidedly taller than my 5' 10" male frame, yet who were still seen as desirable cis women. I have met cis women who had just as wide a set of shoulders as I have, or who had even more muscular arms than I have, or whose weight and body shape was far less 'feminine' than my unaltered male body. That doesn't make them any less female.

It isn't necessary to look like an idealized centerfold model to "pass". It is only necessary to reach a point of 'reasonable doubt', where someone interacting with you is more likely to assume you are a cis female whose body and face are perhaps farther than normal from the "accepted ideal", than they are to assume you are a guy dressed as a girl. I can't ever become a girl who is 5' 2" tall and 100 pounds with a 36-22-36 figure, short of dying and being reincarnated. But I can and do transform myself into an attractive woman who is well within the range of what real cis women do look like and sound like.

Being seen and accepted as a woman is quite possible, even when dealing with others at close range and conversing with them, if you have your appearance at a reasonable level, dress appropriately for the situation, make some effort to alter your voice to a believable pitch and resonance, and most importantly, if you confidently project an attitude of a normal female in that situation. Do that, and they are less likely to see 'something is wrong' and assume you are a cross dressed male.

I am not on HRT and have had no surgeries. I'm 58 years old, 5' 10" tall and weigh about 200 pounds. My ears are pierced, I keep my nails done at all times, and I keep the visible parts of my arms, legs and body areas carefully shaved and free of any traces of beard or body hair when I am out as a girl. I've learned enough voice control to change the resonance and pitch of my voice to something reasonably feminine. But aside from that, my female presentation relies on breast forms, hip pads, makeup, a good wig, appropriate clothes and shoes, and most importantly on confident feminine behaviors.

I go out in public a lot. I talk to people, go about my business, and behave just like any cis woman would in the situation. And for the most part, everyone around me behaves as if they see nothing but a cis woman when they look at me or interact with me. And I can do that even if all I am wearing is my wig, makeup, breast forms, a thong gaff and a bikini!

I don't get strange looks, or people reacting unusually to me. Kids and teens who normally have no filters on their reactions don't usually react to my presence as if I was anything other than a woman. To a lot of them, I am simply blending, and I'm just not noticed. I'm just one more lady walking past them in the mall or store. But that doesn't apply to the people taking my order for a meal at a restaurant, or for drinks at a bar, or at the check stand while buying groceries, or simply chatting with me as we happen to be in the same location. Those people are seeing me, interacting with me, and still not reacting as if I was anything other than a cis woman. I'm looking in their eyes and they are looking right at me, and I'm seeing no surprise and no hesitations in their face or behavior.

Do some people still 'clock me' and realize I'm transgender or a crossdresser? Yes, of course, but that's a very infrequent occurrence. It's somewhat more likely if they are gay or are TG themselves, because those individuals are more aware that TG people exist and they know what to look for. But it's much more common in my experience for strangers to complement me on how beautiful I am, or on how great my clothes look, or for them to simply treat me like any other woman around them.

[Teresa]

Erin,
That was a very interesting reply, for want of a better label I would say CDing is a totally absorbing hobby, I can see passing for you does have a different meaning, as you say you don't have a gender issue. I don't spend time lavishing myself like that, I really want to be out the door and interact with people, again the passing point has a different meaning to me. I was lucky that my first social outing was a celebration party, the meetings since then have just been chatting over a drink, to some that's hard, but I enjoy making the effort to interact with people , to do that dressed makes it that more enjoyable.

[leannejacobs]

Everyone here would love to think they pass but I'm very tall and being very tall certainly has drawbacks as a crossdresser, being self conscious of height really does hold you back, however yesterday I had a great time, I bit the bullet and though f#‪#‎k‬ it! Who cares?? I went out and about, mid day to late evening, where I'd normally avoid being in close proximity to other people I took the opportunity to interact, with sales assistants etc. So refreshing when you are in the right frame of mind, the point is, be you, to hell with everyone else.

l was very close to many people yesterday and only at the very end of the evening did I hear "that's a man" from a young teen lad to his friend, they're the worst, I didn't let it bother me, that seems to be key, don't worry, no one really cares.

[AllieBellema]

I'm certain I'm still not 100% passing when I do dress up, but at the same time I don't worry about it. I mean, how many southern belles were 6' tall to begin with? lol

I'll do what I need to do to look my best, but at the same time if somebody finds out I'm actually a guy and respects that, I'm ok with it. I'm gonna go out and have fun being dressed up!

[Steph70kk]

For many reasons I would like to "pass", but I think an important step for me was realizing that I don't HAVE TO pass. My gender presentation is for me.
Exactly! Today, I went to a mall near Koeln in Germany. I was wearing Jeggings, high boots, feminine sweater, make up, ... I was just myself, not trying to pass as a woman. I don't think anyone cared and it all felt very normal except for one teenager at the changing room at H&M. Bought some make-up at Rituals, Body shop, pink leggings at H&M, a pink cardigan at Street One. SAs were all very helpful, the SA at Rituals gave me some tea and some samples, the SA at Body Shop put some make-up on and more samples, as if everything was absolutely normal! Which it was of course, because we have the right to wear whatever we want in whatever mode we want!

[bimini1]

I waver. There's times when I really want to pass or at least present so well someone would have to ask or go hmmmm. Others times I don't care at all.

[Dana44]

When I am out with my SO. We seem to pass, but sometimes I don't feel like I do. yet she told me that people see what they want to see and on first look they see you as a female. they may not look twice.

A funny story; when we were at the Paris dance floor in Vegas. We danced with a few women. After a while they noticed we were males. She said, "I thought we were dancing with women."
But they continued to dance with us for the better part of the night and before they left, they came over and hugged each one of us and told us how much fun they had. That was a fun night on the dance floor. So, we all passed for a little bit. But for me they had to ask if I was male.

[Judy-Somthing]

Is there a secret to passing ?
I think I can pass form 20ft. away or at night or low lighting.

[docrobbysherry]

Hi all y'all

Please accept my deep gratitude for every one of your posts here. I wish I had time, this week, to reply to each and every one of you, but I do not.
Your discussion and truth and opinion and experience have been SO VERY HELPFUL and soothing to me.

I am coming to agree that some part of my desire to "pass" is really about continuing to hide!!
I am grateful for this awareness....

Two experiences triggered the whole question
1) the Payless Shoe SA who obviously treated me like she was trained to (based on what I have read here) - with kindness and normalcy, followed by
2) Standing behind an older couple in the meat section of the Publix. She was looking at the prepared items wondering out loud which one they should choose for dinner. When she noticed me, she stepped aside and kindly let me get close to the shelves. She had no response to me what so ever. When I picked the meat loaf off the shelf, while I was turning I looked her way and said with my normal masculine voice, "I chose the meatloaf." She began to smile and then her eyes got big and her jaw dropped and she just stared as I turned and walked away. My first honest surprise face!! That triggered the whole thought of me just wanting to be my normal public person regardless of my dress or the perception of my maleness or my femaleness.

Thanks again for all the feedback!!
Thanks for reading my story and adding any more feedback you might have.

Peace
Stevie
Remember Stevie's post, girls. If you're not sure if u passed or not? U passed!

Because those of that don't r constantly reminded whenever we go out amongst the Muggles!:doh:

[Nashmau]

@ Judy

well, i am not a crossdresser, but a GG. I look everyday through the pictures in the galary, but never write a comment in there. Because i dont want to crush there dream of passing. But i give will give you some pointers, because it is important for some ppl:

Everytime when someone in this forum cries they got clocked, i check if they have pictures. then i look over them and think, well yeah no wonder. if i take the hrt ppl out of the equation, i can remember out of my head only 3 people in the picture galary, that would pass by me. and interestgly they are at least 65, but look younger then they are.

A lot of you totally ignore, for whom you actually try to pass. for man or for women.

our brain and our eyes look differently. and very often, we dont even know it.
For example: a men spends more time then you think looking at your face especially the eyes, then chest, then hip and then legs
A women spends the same time at the face, but looks at different places on the face, they mostly checking the place under the eyes, they will then go from top to bottom and that happens in milliseconds. a Man mostlikly will check the overall picture, while a women checks details. there are multiple eyetracking studies on that one.

And if i just take the ppl from the picture forum and again HRT ppl are not included in that, Eyebrows, Neck, Hands are hugely important, an other thing is anatomy half of the picture are anatomicly wrong and that is just the start. but it gives you some pointer.

so in the end, for whom do you want to pass: for a women? then you need correct details. for a men? get the overall picture right. for both? then do both.


I hope my post didnt hurt to much and i sincerely apologise if it did!!


there is one more thing, i would like to point out:

passing isnt always the best. If you are being natural and confident, then you will blend right in and i guarantee you, noone will bother with a 2nd thought!

[PattyT]

Nashmau stated, "If you are being natural and confident, then you will blend right in and i guarantee you, noone will bother with a 2nd thought!"

I'm not sure this works 100% of the time, maybe just 90%+. It is great advice, though, and something especially new CDs, or those lacking in confidence, should bear in mind.
As for the reaction of males and females, it seems females are more inclinded to accept than males.

- - - Updated - - -

Most of use would like to pass or at least blend in. There is a bit of irony here. So many of us regret not being accepted as CDs or wish the muggles had a better understanding of us, or acknowledge that we exist. The irony is that by passing or blending in, we succeed as CDs but disguise the fact that we are CDs. People look upon a successful CD as just one of the crowd and not as a male in female attire. In a sense succeeding as a CD is great for a CD but in a sense counterproductive in terms of getting the rest of society to recognize us. Ironic indeed!

[Claire Cook]

I am less inclined to want to pass and more inclined to want to be accepted for who I really am - a biologically male person who experiences both gender realities inside. Would I like to blend, yes. Would I like to be accepted by cis gendered men and women as I am, blending or not, expressing socially unacceptable mixtures of gender - YES.

Peace
Stevie

Hi Stevie,

I think you have said a lot here, and from my experience you are dead on. Wouldn't we all like to be treated this way? A number of friends who know me both ways treat me as another of the girls, and sometimes those who don't are surprised when they find out that I am a guy. Others have said it -- it comes from within.

Thanks,

Claire

[Jenniferathome]

...Most of use would like to pass or at least blend in. There is a bit of irony here. ... The irony is that by passing or blending in, we succeed as CDs but disguise the fact that we are CDs. ...

Patty, I disagree on this. First, virtually no CD passes as a genetic woman. I know this statement bothers those who think they do, but it's a simple truth. The fact that nothing is said to one's face is not a signal of "passing." Second, BLENDING does not mean we are not seen. It simply means that the spotlight is not on us. ANYONE who looks at us for more than a second sees that we are not a genetic woman. Now, maybe in their minds they are mulling the CD vs Trans possibility but skeletal structure of the face and shoulders veins in the arms and hands are huge signals not to mention the millions of other subtle cues that we have all learned to read over our lifetimes. So, what someone sees IS a positive image of a confident cross dresser. I think the typical reaction of a normal is something like, "Oh hey, that's a dude, that's different." And that's about it. To anyone working in a store, the reaction is usually, "That's a customer. They have money. I get paid to sell stuff to this person."

[abby054]

Patty, I disagree on this. First, virtually no CD passes as a genetic woman. I know this statement bothers those who think they do, but it's a simple truth...

Jennifer, you are right that rare indeed is any CD who consistently passes as a genetic woman. Fortunately, as you point out, there is little cause for any to despair. Abraham Lincoln's observation about an aspect of politics probably applies here, "You can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time."

Many of us can blend in because most of the people are far more concerned about their own issues most of the time.

[Ressie]

I passed the last time I went out to eat with the girls. I passed the salt, pepper and ketchup more than once!

[heatherdress]

Patty, I disagree on this. First, virtually no CD passes as a genetic woman. I know this statement bothers those who think they do, but it's a simple truth. The fact that nothing is said to one's face is not a signal of "passing." Second, BLENDING does not mean we are not seen. It simply means that the spotlight is not on us. ANYONE who looks at us for more than a second sees that we are not a genetic woman. Now, maybe in their minds they are mulling the CD vs Trans possibility but skeletal structure of the face and shoulders veins in the arms and hands are huge signals not to mention the millions of other subtle cues that we have all learned to read over our lifetimes. So, what someone sees IS a positive image of a confident cross dresser. I think the typical reaction of a normal is something like, "Oh hey, that's a dude, that's different." And that's about it. To anyone working in a store, the reaction is usually, "That's a customer. They have money. I get paid to sell stuff to this person."

Jennifer, I don't think you have this right. It is as meaningless to say no one "passes" as it is to think that there is such a realistic concept of "passing" in the first place. It is really about going unnoticed or blending without reaction, and that does not mean "passing" as a female or either being recognized as a crossdresser and "accepted" without notice.

The reality is that no matter how we look, dress, act, behave - we can be totally unnoticed (some may think that means "passing") if we are in the right environment, setting, lighting, crowd, distance, distractions, neighborhood. Likewise, no matter how great we look and are dressed, we can be picked up immediately as crossdressers if we are in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong observers.

Thus, in reality, some crossdressers definitely do "pass" (or blend and go unnoticed), and feel they "pass", and may in fact "pass" (or successfully blend as a female) most of the time, and maybe even all of the time, when they dress.

Also, "blending-in" certainly can, and often does, mean we are not seen and noticed, or that we are seen and not recognized. Most people simply don't care what other people look like. Most are preoccupied with their own thoughts and interests and do not care or notice others. Maybe that is the real simple truth - most don't care. Most do not have a crossdresser radar turned on. Certainly a close encounter would trigger the tranny alarm, but if everyone always registered an "oh hey - there is a dude in a dress", there would be endless stares, smiles, finger-pointing. That does not happen. Many crossdressers usually do blend, and often, regardless of their physical "pass-ability", they pass.

The entire pass/blend/accept is totally arbitrary and meaningless, except for personal comfort levels of crossdressers and anyone they might be with, like spouses.

Also, the concept that crossdresser "passing" somehow diminishes acceptance because the public is not aware of the number of crossdressers is also at fault. So what if more crossdressers were recognized in public? Do numbers in any way equate to acceptance? Of course not. Education and understanding promote comfort and acceptance, not numbers. If we all crossdressed in public every day, with signs announcing who we are, it still would not change public perception that crossdressing is weird, abnormal or threatening to many. Fortunately, the general public seems to be more accepting and understanding of gay/lesbian/bisexual/transsexual individuals, but understanding and accepting crossdressing is totally different. Even crossdressers do not understand crossdressing.

[DMichele]

Stevie,

With regards to the OP, I identify as TG and at 6'7" will never blend (unless I am at a gathering of women's' basketball or volleyball teams). Yes, I would like for acceptance for my dual genders in all aspects of life. I have been cautious around family and work, but have been a little more adventurous on weekends while running errands to stores at al.

On weekends I venture out wearing ladies tops and jeans, light makeup, bra with forms, jewelry, and carry a purse. I continue to explore women's clothing, shoes, jewelry, nail polish, etc. to add to my collection.

I have bumped into former work colleagues and a high school classmate - holding conversations with all (I don't think the 2 guys had a clue, but I suspect the one GG noticed). Several cashiers (yes they were young ladies) have knowingly smiled as I open my purse to make the transaction, while my bracelet dangled on my wrist.

Hopefully these encounters have a positive affect on the people that will gain greater acceptance for all TGs.

[PattyT]

This thread seems to have become bogged down. One issue is that there is no really clear distinction between "passing", "blending in," and "being accepted." They can almost be used interchangeably. Every one seems to have his own opinion. Another issue is that people are setting up principles based on their own experience. People who feel they themselves would never pass as a female, based on their own experience, then apply this as a principle for everyone, as a kind of truism. Virtually all of the comments on this topic can only be based soley on personal experience, and therefore can only be an expression of a personal opinion, not a truth written in stone. It is one thing to offer an opinion based on personal experience but quite another to pontificate. There is a lot of pontificating going on here.
The fact is, it is very dfficult, perhaps even virtually impossible, to know what the person next to you is thinking. Unless that person makes an obvious facial expression or says something very clear like, "Why are your wearing women's clothing?" you cannot know what that person is thinking about you or even if he is thinking about you at all. Isn't also possible that CDs who go out often en femme can pick up some female manerisms? This could help play down male aspects.
Recently I had a very interesting experience. I often pass by a middle aged women on her way to the station I have just left. Several times she has made very nice comments about the Lolita fashion I wear. The last time she noticed that I never seem to wear the same outfit twice and strongly suggested that I should take pictures of myself in each outfit. She seemed very sincere. I have similar experiences fairly often, and people seem to behave toward me as if I were a female. Yet I don't know exactly what they are thinking. Once a women said I looked good wearing female clothes. I knew what she was thinking!
The issue gets further muddled in that almost inevitably they address me right off in Japanese. I am rarely asked if I speak Japanese. I am of the average height and build for a Japanese. I have been here a long time and perhaps I've acquired some Japanese manerisms. Am I passing as a Japanese? Is it that people just don't even care and just want to talk? I don't know. There are relatively few foreigners living in Osaka, especially the local areas. They just assume I'm Japanse because all they other people around are. Could this apply to CDs. The general feeling is that we don't exist. People don't go looking out for men in female attire. Unless a CD is dressed in an odd way, isn't it possible that people expect a person in female attire to be just another female and not even bother to sctuitinize? In other words, might they not just see what they expect to see? Perhaps some of us are so wrapped up in the ephemeral concepts pf "passing" and "blending in" that we miss the whole point?
Perhaps the topic of this thread is misleading. Maybe it should be "Is it really about being able to function in society without hassle?" This is what is important to me. I don't care what you call it.
It is Sunday night right now. I went out en femme today and yesterday and although I may have got an odd glance on occasion, I had no problems at all. On Saturday I went to a display of plastic models and was asked to write an opinion. I also participated in a computer game display and was treated like everyone else and given a souvenir when I left. When en femme shop keepers seem to treat me more politely when I'm en femme than in drab.
I don't know what people are thinking about me and I don't care at all anymore. I go out dressed, do whatever I need to do and have no problem. Other people on this forum have similar experiences. Views on how much importance popel place on this is what this thread was meant to be about. Enough pontificating. Let's have more opinions

[heatherdress]

Patty - I understand and totally agree with your comments. It not be about passing. It is really about living your life the way you want to live your life. People you don't know don't care what you look like, and even if they did you will never know what they think. And should you care? Dress for yourselves, not for others.

[Sarah Doepner]

I'll put my 2 cents in on this. I pass all the time.

I pass as a crossdressed male attempting to not attract undue attention, behaving with respect toward others and showing confidence.

The goal of "passing" is assessed uniquely by each person you encounter, so there will be no single standard for our success. The person on their cell phone, running late and not feeling well will have a much different impression than the teenage girls busy people watching and they will respond differently than the Sales Associate in the store wanting to up-sell you on something you show interest in.

What I'm going to suggest is we need to establish a definition of passing that keys on;
1) your expectations,
2) how confident you feel about your presentation, and
3) how comfortable you feel regardless of the range of responses you get.

In the final run, it's not about them, it's about us.