the impossible dilemmas of visibility

[arbon]

The problems with being visible - it is not the fear of being attacked or blatantly harassed, being made fun of, but rather it is the more subtle stuff that gets me.
For example I've learned that within my circle of female friends I'm not actually being accepted as a woman but rather as a trans person, a guy wearing womens cloths and going by a female name. Their totally supportive of me, and love me still, but it is a far ways off from what all this has been about for me. Being a normal woman. Crap, even just a couple days ago a woman I know started telling me that her daughter (who I don't even know) saw me somewhere and was saying how great and content I looked - now if I were just a normal woman would I be being judged like this by someone I don't even know and having it come back to me? Of course not. This sort of thing happens all the time to me though, it feels like I can't even go to the store without being judged by how well I am pulling off trying to be a woman. Which is a horrible way to think about it, because I am a woman!

The way I feel about it, once you are known as trans whatever, you are no longer that woman that you are to those people. You've become something else to them.


So I don't want to be out and visible that way, as trans or transgender, or transsexual or any of that. Just let me have a normal woman's life. The impossible dream! And at this stage in my life, I try to never even use those terms at all or to identify myself or others.


But then on the flip side of that I want to be able to be supportive of others that share this crazy experience, I want to be helpful when I can be. I want to stand up to all the jerks out there and fight for rights and all that. In the community here I am often approached by people needing information or help. Especially with younger people it is coming up more and more. That happens because of being visible, which is the good thing about it. It can help someone else and give them hope for themselves.

Well today I am much more visible in the community after my name was in the paper attached to an article about lgbt stuff - I saw that article and read my name in the very first sentence and it sent my anxiety over all this through the freaking roof.

So I am leaving town for a couple days to hide.

I have not got any of this shit figured out! Will I ever? I don't know.

And I don't know why I am writing all this, but there you have it.

[Jenniferathome]

... a woman I know started telling me that her daughter (who I don't even know) saw me somewhere and was saying how great and content I looked - now if I were just a normal woman would I be being judged like this by someone I don't even know and having it come back to me? ....

Arbon, I m a half full glass kind of guy. I can't tell you how many times I have heard similar comments about a woman who was recently divorced with friends saying EXACTLY, "how great and content" this divorced woman looked. I have heard the same after a death of a loved one. I understand what you are feeling, but to me, it is a positive. Someone is reflecting on how well you have moved in this next stage of your life. You re LIVING, not hiding in shame. That's what they are saying.

Now, as for being stuck with the "trans" label, yes, that might stick for quite a while. People can't see what is in your head, they see you. People who know you, know you used to be a man, physically/genetically. Time will heal the "trans" label. Here's a light hearted thought: have you every worked in a place where a new guy is hired and he is still the "new" guy two years later? I had an office for about 5 years where everyone called it, "Bob's old office." Bob was gone 5 years when I got the office!

Again, time will cure your ills. How much time? I don't know. But usually, time brings new people into your life and they will only know you as woman. Then change moves faster.

Best wishes

[ariannavt]

...within my circle of female friends I'm not actually being accepted as a woman but rather as a trans person...

I sometimes struggle with this too. The idea that I will never actually be able to experience life, or perhaps more importantly, relationships, as a regular woman. I know celebrating differences is something to remember... but most days all I really want is a chance at being a common part of the collective.

[Badtranny]

Time my friend.

I could have written that same post a couple of years ago. In fact I think I did.

...but the tide does ebb, and the sands do shift. It doesn't get better every day or even every week, but every couple of years, I can look back and say it's definitely getting better.

remember, we measure this shit in years.

[arbon]

And it Has been measured in years. Like six.

My only hope is when I can get out of this town. Maybe out of the state.

[Kate T]

Arbon

We've all written / felt this or at least something similar. I doubt there is a single day goes by that most of us don't think "I just want to get on with my life, I don't want to be 'the transwoman'". I know there are very few that I don't think this at some point.

But we are who we are. I was born assigned male. I have three children and a wife. My mother, who has dementia, refuses to call me by my name and constantly calls me by my old name. EVERY day I am reminded that I USED to be male. That takes nothing away from the fact that I am now female. I am Kate.

I am visible in my local and professional community. Ridiculously visible. Not because I'm trans but because we have 3 children at various schools, I am on P&F committee's, professional association committees, I do referral veterinary surgery for other local veterinarians, we play tennis every week at the local tennis club, we are well known at our local church and often help out with morning tea, we help with a local sailing club that takes people with disabilities sailing. Many of these things we have been doing for almost 20yrs in this community. So I get where you are coming from. Does everyone call me Kate out of political correctness? Do they go around saying "Oh yes that's Kate, he used to be ...... (I really don't like using my old name) before" behind my back? You know what, I actually don't think they do. I think Jennifer is right. Women often will say "so and so looks great since she left that a...hole / got that new job / left that other crappy job". I think when people call me Kate they genuinely just think of me as Kate. Kate their tennis partner / opposition, Kate their veterinarian, Kate who makes really nice morning tea at church, Kate who is the budget girl on the P&F.

Arbon, you said yourself that your friends love you still. Do you really think they love some image you project or do they love you? Because if they love you then it won't matter to them what gender you are, were or will be. You are just you. Perhaps you need to consider whether you are judging them and what they are thinking, I know this is something that I constantly have to remind myself to NOT do. If we want others just to accept us for who we are then we need to be able to do the same for them and not be constantly judging whether we think they are thinking the "right way" or not.

All that being said I understand you getting out of town. One of the nicest things about being away from people who know me and my history is just being essentially treated like any other woman they don't know. It is pretty superficial though and can never replace the friendships and relationships that I have in my local community.

[pamela7]

People will be people. For me the answer lies in being independent of their views or perceptions or judgements. Having just come out in a national newspaper there is nowhere to hide and I don't need to. We have one neighbouring house where they clearly laugh at me, while the rest seem fine actually. It's their problem, and from their perspective I can understand why they see it as funny. The point is "so what?" Imagine all the crap thrown at a top politician or celebrity. It's not only trans people who are judged; everyone is. Jennifer's post makes this point; people hold onto images of the past world.

So the only remedy is to process out why you allow your emotional state to depend on what others think or say, and at the end of that you can be unaffected.

[Angela Campbell]

I know the feeling. I moved to a new town, got a new job, new friends and left the trans stuff behind. I never thought much about being this way. I only came on here for that subject, I avoided it on Facebook.

But lately when our governments began a war against us I felt like I had to help fight back. So I'm coming out of the closet again.

[STACY B]

And it Has been measured in years. Like six.

My only hope is when I can get out of this town. Maybe out of the state.

Funny you say Move,, Get out of the State, Me and the SO were just talking about that yesterday. And I am Totally the opposite on that, Yep all the way around Really I am, No matter how Dumb these folks are,, Screw that moving crap from a person who has invested there whole life and Built a Business here for 11 years and to let those Goof Balls Run me outta town NO WAY,,

Maybe the other way around, How bout I start picking Folks I don't agree with and send them packing? How you like that? Hell I know everyone here, This is my Hood,, Not the Biggest place but still large enough to be OK,, And not a small 2 red light town ether ,Just big enough,, I was just telling my wife that Hell I am a B celebrity here and these knuckle Heads are just going to have to go with the flow and get used to it.

If I were to go anywhere else I would just be a face in the crowd and I like being known though out the Land,, Kind of a Local Icon with my small company and what would all my regular customers do ,, Hell they Freak when my Truck goes down for repairs now,, They see me,, They know me by now, Hell I am SURE they talk Crap about me after I leave,, The Big Man talk to make there selves feel better about being Alpha I am sure of it, But everyone in the whole world has SOMETHING WRONG with them, And we are Trans, So I tell suck it up Partner, I'll be gone one day and yull have to find another Poor Sucker to pick on,,lol,,

I know, I know,, I get Sick of it from time to time and just want to throw my hands in the air and say Piss on it, But we have come to far , When you feel Bad and start giving up just go back to the CD threads and see how Bad those Poor sucker have it. All of them just starting out,, Hell I would NEVER want to go back to the begining of this whole deal,, I don't think I could Climb that Hill again,, I think I will just keep moving in this direction,, Stay Strong WOMAN,,,,

[Nashmau]

I would like to offer 2 things, which maybe (?) can give you some comfort.

a) you said you have a group of female friends, anyone of them had a nasty breakup lately? you know something that breaks you and makes you eat a bunch of chocolate stuff, which gives you shitty skin and you look like crap for at least 1 month? and then that friend gets up again, changes her hairstyle and looks like a springflower? what do you say? "she looks good, fresh, content, new start" etc etc etc. think about it, i am certain you said that to someone too at some point in your live. It is a compliment! its something positive. We tell each other that, especially when we care for the other. We want them to be confident, we want them to be looking like a springflower! I really hope you wont take these negative, because they are compliments.

b) female friends who know that you are TS ( if they are quality friends!!) think a lot about what they will be saying. mhh Let me give you an example: a classmate of mine and very dear friends transinioned very early in her life, so we basicly grew up together. i took me years, YEARS to actually tell her, that my menstruation is the worst thing in my life and i will never get pregnant because i dont wanna have the pain or a c-section etc ( i was 25 to that time lol, so my opinion might have changed by now....well maybe not so much). which is totally idiotic of me. BUT i simply didnt wanted to hurt her with these topics. But in me trying to protect her from these hurt, i made her feel insecure. and sometimes, if you feel left out, it can help to give your female QUALITY friends, a subtle pointer that you can deal with that, that you maybe dont need to be protected. Instead that you would like to be secure in your position as there girlfriend.

I hope this will leave you with some positive feelings. I dont want you to hide, i want you to be a springflower. So get up and be a springflower!

[flatlander_48]

A:

I don't believe this is something that you can change directly. I think everyone has a different time table to get to acceptance, if they ever do. You can't control that. I am reminded of this:

“Lord, grant me the strength to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.”

I assume that you are a likable person of good cheer. So to me what's left is that the women you mention have not reconciled the fact that your path to womanhood was different. The other assumption that I would make is that you were parented as male. If true, there may be a lot of information that you were forced to absorb in different ways, assuming it was available to you.

If all of this is the case, you can't fix it. But, what you can do is live as you think you should and be the person that you need to be. It is inappropriate to compromise yourself over this. If people get it, fine. If they don't, they don't. If it turns out that some will have to fall by the wayside, so be it. However, explain the situation to them first. Make sure that they know how you feel. Many times people are unaware of their own baggage. Make them aware. The idea is not to leave bloody corpses; rather it is to inform. What we often forget is that when we have to convey negative information, it has to be done in a manner where people are still able to hear what we say. If your anger comes through, it will be "Shields Up" and they will hear very little of what you have to say because they will fixate on, and respond to, your anger.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Arbon, you said yourself that your friends love you still. Do you really think they love some image you project or do they love you? Because if they love you then it won't matter to them what gender you are, were or will be. You are just you.

This.

I won't presume to understand how you feel, I can only guess and try to empathize. But, I can tell you how I see the people in my life and it is the way that Kate describes it. While it is true that when I first meet someone, I do make note of their gender, age group, marital status, and any number of other immediately observable general statistics because that is all I have to go on. But, after I get to know them all of that disappears and they get classified into a box that is just for them. It's difficult to describe other than saying that when I think of them, I think of the way they smile, the laugh they have, their outlook on life, what makes them tick, their quirks and foibles, how approachable or private they are, the memories we share. Gender, age group, nationality, whether married or not or have children or not, student or not, all kinda merge into one big shining cloud that is simply them. The transwomen that I know do not get classified into "transwomen" boxes, the women are not in "women" boxes, nor the men in "men" boxes. Instead, everyone that I've known for awhile gets classified into either a "close friends" box, "acquaintances" box, "work-related" box, "friendly" or "not friendly" box, "people I dislike" box, "very special SO" box (there's only one person in that box), no matter their gender. The one distinction I do keep related to general statistics is children vs. adults simply because I relate to all children differently than I relate to all adults.

I'll try to give an example. I take it you are Caucasian (I think I remember a picture at one point). So if among your close friends there are for example Asians or African Americans, do you primarily think of them as being racially different than you are, or do you think of who they are at their essence, in short all the aspects of their personalities, when you bring them to mind.

[Tina_gm]

I would imagine this subject has got to be among the biggest difficulties of those who are or have transitioned. Heck, one of the reasons why I do not go out in public is because I do not want to be viewed as a guy in a dress. My hats off to all that do. I certainly have nothing against it. BUT, when I do see someone out dressed, I also view the reactions of others. While not toxic with hate or anger for most, still, there is that general view most get, the glances, the whatever indescribable reaction people get when they see someone dressed. And for those who are or have transitioned, there will likely be for many of you, a same basic reaction that they see as a CDer, and they may view you as a CDer. They won't necessarily know, just assume. Or they will assume a CDer is someone who is or has transitioned. Not that is SHOULD actually matter. But, it does.

[Jenniferathome]

... if among your close friends there are for example Asians or African Americans, do you primarily think of them as being racially different than you are, or do you think of who they are at their essence, in short all the aspects of their personalities, when you bring them to mind.

Great analogy.


...And for those who are or have transitioned, there will likely be for many of you, a same basic reaction that they see as a CDer, and they may view you as a CDer. They won't necessarily know, just assume...

Mutt, I disagree and here's why using my own example. I had dinner with Jennifer-GWN rom this forum, several weeks ago. Me, the cross dresser and she, the tans-woman. We even discussed this topic. As a cross dresser, I am essentially a poser or "tourist" to be kinder. I am not LIVING as woman I am only hoping the villagers don't tar and feather me. I LIVE as a man and that is my foundation. Jennifer LIVES as a woman and that is her foundation. As we spoke to each other and to the wait staff, I could sense the "naturalness" she had at being a woman, that I did not have. The "vibe" if you will, comes through and I honestly believe the normals can see and feel it.

[Zooey]

I'm fortunate enough to have a few female friends who I believe really do deeply accept me as a woman, but I know the feeling arbon is talking about very well.

The SF Bay Area is, by and large, an incredibly TOLERANT place. Most people are deeply RESPECTFUL of my identity. There is a palpable difference though, between tolerance/respect and actual acceptance. It's subtle, and rarely stated directly. It's encoded in small hesitations, subconscious exclusions, and a thousand other little moments. Many of these people are my friends, and they DO care about me. Most of the people who I would say have not deeply accepted me as a woman would argue that they HAVE done so, but I don't think they realize what that really means. They don't do these things intentionally or consciously; they're not aware of it. I would have trouble actually placing any blame on them for it, but it does hurt.

A lot.

[Tina_gm]

Jennerfer, I know the area in which you live SanJose I believe?? I once lived there myself many years ago. I actually like the city, among my favorites in CA. But overall, the bay area is a very accepting and tolerant place. I think in most of the general surrounding area, many people there have a true I don't care attitude. They may see more of the gender variance than what many places do, and may be better able to pick up the subtle difference between someone who is living as a woman as opposed to a CDer expressing themselves for the occasion. I would say in many other places, people will not see those subtleties nearly as much.

[Suzanne F]

Most of the time I can accept that I am seen as a trans woman. In fact when I am in a good place I happily wear the badge. However, lately it has been overwhelming. Yesterday a complete stranger stopped me in the nail salon to tell me I should be on the bus. I didn't get it at first. She meant Caitlyn's bus. I looked at her kind of in shock and she assured me she meant it as a compliment. I thanked her and retreated to my chair. Then 2 hours later I was out in my newly colored actual hair and a clerk called me sir loudly in front of the entire CVS. Given the earlier comment I was about over it. That lead to a tiff with my wife later when I hit home when she didn't react that supportively. It wasn't a great day!

However, I try to remember that I am so grateful not to hide anymore. I am free to live an authentic life no matter how other people react to me or my appearance. Yes Jennifer I agree. People I interact with do usually sense that my essence is female. I love that when it comes through. No one guaranteed me this would be easy.

Suzanne

[Badtranny]

No one guaranteed me this would be easy.

In fact some of us looked you in the eye and said "it's gonna be hard, be strong".

Hang in there Suze, the first couple of years are a grind, but it will eventually get better because you will eventually get stronger. It won't be long now and you'll be a meanie just like us. :-)

[PretzelGirl]

Misty, everyone certainly did and it definitely should be listened too. I do find one thing interesting. I can certainly see that where Arbon lives being a potentially tough area. It has the same predominate religion as I have in my area, but they wear it more judgmentally perhaps. There is certainly something different as I feel I have had it quite good and a 3 hour drive away, it changes. And I am still relatively a trans baby. Sometimes you can't predict the response as I wouldn't have thought about Zooey running into issues where she is given the repetition, but there it is.

BTW Jennifer. We still haven't met and my daughter now lives in your city, along with a past board member from here. So I get up there now and then. Maybe we can fix that?

[Jenniferathome]

Yep, I think we have to. Maybe we can get Arbon down to the big city too!

[Zooey]

Sometimes you can't predict the response as I wouldn't have thought about Zooey running into issues where she is given the repetition, but there it is.

Just to be clear, I've got it great. I haven't run into much that I would actually describe as "issues". Again, most folks in the bay area are extremely tolerant and respectful, even "accepting" of me. Nobody in my life (that I'm aware of), and I suspect relatively few people day to day, would ever think of me as a man. The vast majority of them, AFAICT, see and think of me as a woman. Accepting me as a woman with no caveats is a different story though.

Nobody ever says anything bad to me. It's more like, there are things they don't discuss with me that I know they discuss with other women in their social circle (at a similar level of familiarity), or they will hesitate ever so slightly before doing so in ways that I don't see them do with other women. Or, when it comes to physical contact, there's that same subtle hesitation or slightly lower level of inclusion. They're not doing anything wrong; they're not even aware that they're doing it. They would swear up and down that they think of me as a woman, and as far as their conscious mind is concerned, that's almost certainly true. In some cases, I've seen it get better over time. In other cases, it hasn't seemed to, but who knows what more time will do.

One of my best friends has only really known me since transition, and she unquestionably accepts me as a woman. It's entertaining when I periodically have to remind her that I have some "uncommon issues" that can affect certain things.

[Marcelle]

Hi Arbon,

So sorry to hear about your dilemma but I want to applaud your stance in helping those around who may be looking for information and being an ambassador of sorts at the cost of being more visible . . . it is not an easy row to hoe especially if you value your privacy and with to just live your life like every other woman.

To be honest, I never thought about this until you wrote your post. I have a close group of friends at work, women and men and always assumed they saw me as a trans woman because they saw me transition in place. Recently in the Canadian military we have be reexamining our sexual harassment policy and various working/focus groups have been formed (harassment of LGBT folks falls under the definition of sexual harassment in the CAF). I received an invite to sit on a women's focus group and to be honest was quite ecstatic by the prospect. However, after I had introduced myself to the group during first day introductions, the lead added . . . "Marcelle is our trans member". Now nobody is ever going to mistake me for a cis-woman but I certainly did not need that caveat attached to my introduction as nobody else got that additional attachment . . . Cheryl is our brunette member.

So yesterday, after reading your post I asked some friends (men and women) how they saw me as a man or a woman or something else. Some took the politically correct high road . . . "Well I see you as Marcelle" but most indicated "I see you as a transgender person". I did not read anything bad in that because I know it is hard for people who are so attached to a clearly defined binary (you are a woman if you meet the following criteria) and this kid does not meet all the checks mark for them to say "you are a woman". However, I will always consider myself a woman and that puts me in a comfortable spot.

Cheers

Marcelle

[PretzelGirl]

This is a difficult thing. If you are not advocating then the proper thing is for them to see us as women (or men for FTM). Since I am out advocating, it is hard for anyone to not say "transgender woman" since I am saying it. Some seem to advocate more because I am open as I have many cis-friends making trans supportive posts on Facebook but never say one thing about me being trans at work or social settings. I still think I am fortunate in the way I am treated and am pulled into woman only discussions and activities. I also have used my dead name in educational efforts with the understanding that I might be planting a seed and could have it used back at me. It hasn't happened yet except for the duration of those educational discussions. But it is a risk. One of my ongoing wishes is that I could bottle up acceptance and pass it on. It is so unfair.

One of my friends said in general that she doesn't like saying Transgender Woman but if the distinction needs to be made, it should be Woman who is Transgender which keeps us from being held separate and just being women. I like that and have used it.

Jennifer, I still have an old email address for you, so sending a test to see if I still have a valid one.

[jandebs]

I just don’t get that being referred to as a transwoman is a problem. Or that it’s something we should be ‘stuck’ with. Sure, I’m presenting as female and I’d be crushed to be treated as anything else, but when it comes up I’m completely happy to describe myself as trans. Arbon I’m not sure what age you are, but for me it’s entirely unrealistic at this point in my life (61) to deny my past. Particularly when people are so accepting of me.

I’ve just illustrated a kid’s book my daughter wrote with her mate, and the book was launched a few weeks ago in Brooklyn NY. I made no secret about being trans but I didn't need to be embarrassed about it, or refer to it in any way either. There’s a video here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAMq7UvgK9w

Everything’s about acceptance and being open and honest about who we are (the story is actually about this), and by not denying the reality, everybody gets it.

[flatlander_48]

So to me what's left is that the women you mention have not reconciled the fact that your path to womanhood was different.

Following up on something that I mentioned earlier, I have a question for the group...

Regardless of the completeness of ones transition (M>F as we're discussing), there are shortfalls of knowledge compared to genetic women. For example, there is no analog for childbirth or menopause as it is simply outside of the realm of experience of trans women. So, the question is can this difference come into play as part of the thought process for genetic women?

DeeAnn

[Badtranny]

I just don’t get that being referred to as a transwoman is a problem. .

How long have you been out? I didn't mind it either back when I thought I would never be seen as anything different.

Then time happens, and you find yourself in situations where nobody seems to know. Holy shit, I don't think anyone knows. ...and then it happens again a few months later, and then again.

Eventually you're at a new job (transition wrecked the old one) and it's been 4 years or so since the name change and you're surrounded by people who never knew you before, and a few that have actually forgotten they knew you before and you don't know how long this will last but you know two things.

1. You like it.
2. You do NOT want to be anywhere near the word "trans"

I am down with all my girls who have bit the bullet and transitioned, but I have little patience for those that try to diminish the experience of doing it while going to work every day.

[PretzelGirl]

DeeAnn, there are many woman who have neither been through childbirth or menopause. So to answer, I say no. All women have a variety of experiences and there is no one set that belongs to all. We are individuals.

[jandebs]

How long have you been out?

This is the kind of interrogation that completely turns me off the trans community. Anyway, for the record, about 12 years. And a decade before that moving through transition. I don't mean 'out' on the weekend either. I mean every single minute of every single day in ALL relationships, and ALL circumstances.

[Badtranny]

This is the kind of interrogation that completely turns me off the trans community.

Interrogation? How long have you been out? Yikes, if that's the worst you've encountered in the last 12 years then you've had a dream transition. Consider yourself lucky.

You know what turns me off of the trans community? Snowflakes and Posers, and our "community" is chock full of them.

You said you didn't understand why being considered trans is a problem and I was trying to explain. I certainly didn't think it was such an offensive question.

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn, there are many woman who have neither been through childbirth or menopause. So to answer, I say no. All women have a variety of experiences and there is no one set that belongs to all. We are individuals.

That's just it. There are a variety of experiences. That might suggest that any one of which could be a point of separation. Some of the things that come to mind would include (but not limited to) anything for which a uterus is required, anything that is effected by the relative strength difference compared to males, losing ones virginity (more from the social and psychological perspective), etc. I don't think it is necessarily a group of experiences as you never know what someone's views and references are.

DeeAnn

[pamela7]

I do not wish to offend anyone, and if anyone is then it's their problem not mine - see post 7 for my first input. So with this caveat; there will always be a difference between a GG and a woman who transitions her body from male form to female form, whether we like it or not. By analogy, Michael Jackson could do all the skin-whitening treatments he liked but it was not going to change how the rest of the world saw his racio-ethnic origin. We're stuck with our racial, genetic, career-type, class-level judgements and separations. Humanity is one big very dysfunctional family; we're all unique. There are cliques in golf clubs, directors lounges, a stereotypical white male middle class middle manager will probably feel out of place sitting with the shop floor machinists at lunch break.

It's not easy to be accepted into lifelong cliques, and it's not easy to be accepted into demographics where you're not like the norm. That is society as it presently is. It's also much harder for the clique members to accept incomers than we might think. So, don't judge them for not accepting us, don't take it personally, and don't make yourself suffer for it. If you want to be in on girl-talk then open the disclosing on physical issues for example.

Speaking of which, it's not easy to join this part of the forum, either. I felt distinctly not accepted to begin with.

[flatlander_48]

It's not easy to be accepted into lifelong cliques, and it's not easy to be accepted into demographics where you're not like the norm.

Unfortunately the first hurdle is the prejudices that are held, but rarely admitted (internally and externally).

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

One of my friends said in general that she doesn't like saying Transgender Woman but if the distinction needs to be made, it should be Woman who is Transgender which keeps us from being held separate and just being women. I like that and have used it.

Jenny Boylan, during an episode of I Am Cait, recently said, “My identity as a woman is much more important to me than my identity as a trans woman.”

I could not agree more, and it's how I see my world. "Woman" is my noun. "Transgender" is just one of many adjectives that apply to it, and (IMO) not a terribly important one. It's had a tremendous impact on the course my life has taken up to this point, but it says a lot less about me than words like "smart", "funny", "musical", and "caring".

[Kaitlyn Michele]

some people couldnt stand their pp's and wanted to cut them off themselves, and others are totally content transitioning "Loaded"...

some cant stand the idea of trans, and some are proudly gender outlaw...

some try to blend in and some try to stand out...
there is no wrong or right to it...

[gonegirl]

I do not wish to offend anyone, and if anyone is then it's their problem not mine - see post 7 for my first input. So with this caveat; there will always be a difference between a GG and a woman who transitions her body from male form to female form, whether we like it or not

... says the person who hasn't done anything to transition their body. 🤔

People can intellectualuze all they want (this forum is brimming with it), but until someone has lived the experience, how can they possibly know what they are talking about?

[flatlander_48]

That would suggest that it IS necessary to get hit by a truck to know that it Hurts.

DeeAnn

[PretzelGirl]

There is a big difference between knowing a large, fast moving object hitting you will hurt and all the mental gymnastics of going through a transition. I would like to think I would be done with this, but I am getting hit with more things I didn't come close to projecting.

[Badtranny]

That would suggest that it IS necessary to get hit by a truck to know that it Hurts.

That's a terrible analogy Flats. I do really enjoy most of your posts and find you to be insightful most of the time but THIS time you're off the mark. You simply can't compare something everyone has experienced; physical pain with something that very few have experienced; a public gender transition.

Does getting boob implants hurt? Yes. What does it feel like? I can't explain it. Does SRS hurt? I'm told it does. What does it feel like? I couldn't tell you. Is coming out at work hard? Hells yeah. How hard is it? There is no comparison. Does it hurt when someone changes ever so slightly almost imperceptibly when they find out you're trans? Yes it does. Can I describe it? No I'm afraid I can't. I can tell you I have felt it, but I can't tell you how it feels.

How does it feel to be wet? How do you describe being naked and wet when the water isn't cold? What is that feeling exactly? Can I do anything else that feels similar?

The transition experience is like nothing else in this world. It will change you. It will break you, then it will fix you. You will not be the same person when your transition becomes a memory. This is not arguable. Anyone who doesn't think this process hurts either hasn't done it, or is not being truthful about doing it.

[Georgette_USA]

Does SRS hurt? I'm told it does. What does it feel like? I couldn't tell you.
You will not be the same person when your transition becomes a memory. This is not arguable.

Hurt and pain are different for all.

On the first, my partner described it like sitting on a hot fire hydrant, from somewhere you never had before. I took morphine for a day or two, just to be able to sleep.

On the second after all the times from start to SRS yes plenty of hurt, not so much pain. My partner and I wanted to put it all behind us. After 40 years for me it is all bits and pieces of memory. I can't remember any really bad times, so I guess they couldn't have been too bad. Most of all I can't remember too many things before. Do wish I had documented it all better.

[flatlander_48]

That's a terrible analogy [-]Flats[/-] DeeAnn.

No, it isn't. It's just a slight rearrangement of something that is commonly said.


I do really enjoy most of your posts and find you to be insightful most of the time but THIS time you're off the mark. You simply can't compare something everyone has experienced; physical pain with something that very few have experienced; a public gender transition.

Don't get hung up in the particular text that was used. But, it does mirror (in principle) exactly what you, and S, said.


Does it hurt when someone changes ever so slightly almost imperceptibly when they find out you're trans? Yes it does. Can I describe it? No I'm afraid I can't. I can tell you I have felt it, but I can't tell you how it feels.

I suspect that if we waited for experiences to match 100% (or something close), we probably would turn to dust well before it happened. But, through the power of analogues, I think I have a pretty good handle on this one. It's like having a series of phone conversation with someone you've never met. Then, at some point in the future, you do meet. The reaction upon meeting is usually not conveyed by words. Rather is it a slight and momentary shift in expression when they realize that the person that have been talking to for all this time is Black. Similar to the situation that you describe, you realize that you are now in a different category. You've lost position, status, etc. that you will likely not get back. It's clear that you have been demoted to "Less Than..." status. And how does it feel? It is the most frustrating of experiences because you know that there is nothing that you can do directly.

So, how close was I?

DeeAnn

[gonegirl]

So, how close was I?
DeeAnn

How close? Well, you were right in that it does hurt.

I'll use another analogy.... you're a transgender individual who has just signed up for the local elementary school walkathon, ten times around the school with the 1st graders, and now you're on National television (effectively this forum) explaining in detail what the top female finishers of yesterday's Boston Marathon experienced, and sacrificed, to attain their goals.

So, what's it like to transition, DeeAnn?

[ReineD]

... when they realize that the person that have been talking to for all this time is Black. Similar to the situation that you describe, you realize that you are now in a different category. You've lost position, status, etc. that you will likely not get back. It's clear that you have been demoted to "Less Than..." status.

If this is an analogy to a transwoman being thought of "less than" a GG, your analogy is flawed in that only bigoted people demote black people. My point is, there are an equal number (if not more) people who don't. I'm sure that Arbon's friends don't think less of her because she was not born with XY chromosomes.

[flatlander_48]

How close? Well, you were right in that it does hurt.

I'll use another analogy.... you're a transgender individual who has just signed up for the local elementary school walkathon, ten times around the school with the 1st graders, and now you're on National television (effectively this forum) explaining in detail what the top female finishers of yesterday's Boston Marathon experienced, and sacrificed, to attain their goals.

So, what's it like to transition, DeeAnn?

I don't think that what you describe works in the same way. The construct that I described was functionally similar to what arbon originally described. The point was that I believe that you can get to very similar internalizations by different paths.


If this is an analogy to a transwoman being thought of "less than" a GG, your analogy is flawed in that only bigoted people demote black people. My point is, there are an equal number (if not more) people who don't. I'm sure that Arbon's friends don't think less of her because she was not born with XY chromosomes.

Actually, I wouldn't call it being bigoted. It's a question of expectations. Similarly, how many times has it happened that after meeting a movie star people say "I thought he was taller.". We form images in our minds; sometimes they are correct, sometimes they are not.

Back to the original premise, this shift in perception is noticeable. Perhaps my description of "demoted" and "less than" was a bit dramatic, but at the very least there is "other than" status. In arbon's case I'm not sure what causes this, but I would posit that it is the difference between intellectually having information and internalizing the information. In other words, it is one thing to see trans people on TV and in the news and agreeing (in principle) with what people are trying to do (protections, rights, etc.). But, it is quite another to have this reality in front of you and being forced to deal with it directly. The person knew how to interact with arbon before the admission, but what about after? Whether this shake-up is temporary or long-lasting is hard to say. But, it is something that needs to get sorted if the relationship is to continue to move forward.

DeeAnn

[arbon]

It is an internal conflict I have between being a "trans" woman and my desire to just be a normal non trans woman.

[flatlander_48]

Well, the point is that every time someone has a reaction to you as originally described, it puts the issue squarely back in front of you. Coming to grips with it, from your perspective, won't stop the reactions of others. Not sure what will, but we are only in control of ourselves.

DeeAnn

[Badtranny]

On the second after all the times from start to SRS yes plenty of hurt, not so much pain. My partner and I wanted to put it all behind us. After 40 years for me it is all bits and pieces of memory. I can't remember any really bad times, so I guess they couldn't have been too bad. Most of all I can't remember too many things before. Do wish I had documented it all better.

I'm sorry but what? Are you seriously asserting that you've never been the victim of trans bigotry in 40 years? You've said that you weren't on HRT yet you somehow remained healthy with no sex hormones in your body AND looked so feminine from day one that you disappeared into womanhood, and no one was the wiser?

What does "from start to SRS" even mean?

[Georgette_USA]

I'm sorry but what? Are you seriously asserting that you've never been the victim of trans bigotry in 40 years? You've said that you weren't on HRT yet you somehow remained healthy with no sex hormones in your body AND looked so feminine from day one that you disappeared into womanhood, and no one was the wiser?

What does "from start to SRS" even mean?

I must be the luckiest person around. Yes from after SRS I did just disappear into womanhood, not so sure on the whole idea of looked so feminine. I think I have posted a pic of myself and my partner from 1977/78 on another thread. For a few years would have regular sex with men from regular clubs, and they had no problems with me. And had a on/off affair with one Lesbian. The only people that knew me prior were in the company I transitioned with. Found out recently that I was fairly well known, and there were NO negative comments.

From what I can remember yes NO victim of Trans bigotry. There may have been some pointing/joking when I was doing my daytime outings during 1974-1976, but NO problems. There was a brief period from DEC 76 to MAY 77, when work said for legal reasons I could not work as female. After MAY started to work as female they requested I use the female facilities in the upper floors where I was not as well known. After I came back, they had NO problems with me. I assume my presentation was OK, as they would send me to other sites and places to work on special projects. No one ever questioned my presentation. I think because TS was so rare/uncommon people did not even think about that. Not sure if any of this might be considered Trans bigotry now a days.

As I have said I had HRT from 1975-1985. But quit after consulting with my OB/GYN. I cannot explain the idea of NO sex hormones as I was never tested, small amounts are made in the outer layer of the adrenal glands in both sexes. They didn't bother doing testing back then. I have had my Testosterone and LH and FSH checked, they are in the range for a post-menopausal female. Working on getting the estrogen levels checked. As others from that era, I call it the dark ages, as we were the guinea pigs.

From start of transition after military, 1974, to the end of transition at SRS, 1977. I try to keep my answers short and to the point at times. I guess the rest of our lives will always be a transition.

Melissa,
Not sure why I have to keep going over all this with you. Why would I come up with all this and for what purpose. I DO NOT advocate any one now follow my journey. It was probably very risky compared to now.
If you have a problem with me, send a pm and explain.

[pamela7]

In a passive-aggressive world, perhaps the most likely form of trans bigotry will be the deafening silence of some people? I know I live in the UK, and the SouthWest at that, which is generally a very nice and safe place to live, I don't go out late-night clubbing and I don't have an employer, but really my daily life if anything happens it's like yesterday; a lovely smile from a pregnant lady in the supermarket - to me, with me wearing no make-up and a day's stubble. If people have a problem, they don't look, just like they don't look at beggars or refugees or punks or whichever it is they don't want to see.

[PaulaQ]

You have to learn to love yourself, hon. At that point you'll care less about how others see you.

[Angela Campbell]

It is an internal conflict I have between being a "trans" woman and my desire to just be a normal non trans woman.

You are a normal woman!

[Dana44]

Reading this thread, I see a lot of hurt. Have any of you ever read the book 1984 or seen the movie. I grew up in the time of semantics. Ah, conformity, we sure had it in the fifties and we blew it apart in the sixties, we all are non nonconforming individuals and all a little weird to others. Today with all the bigots hitting back hard and they are bringing that old philosophy out of the woodwork and it seems intolerable and in some areas it is really tough. We are trying to find our place in this world and it seems that it is not working, but remember they are conformist and we do not belong to that club. That naturally makes us Us'ns and them them'ns. So, when a conformist tries to ruin your day push it back in their faces by knowing you have something over them. Walk away and be happy that you do not conform and know you are different.

[flatlander_48]

Two things come to mind:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

Many hands make light work.
John Heywood (1497-1580)

Maybe there really isn't anything new under the sun...

DeeAnn