Enforcement

[NicoleScott]

This is for anyone to answer, but if you do, please stick to my question and don't get into politics, religion, haters, bigots, backlash, etc. concerning "bathroom bills".

The setup: a state passes a law requiring people to use restrooms consistent with their birth sex.

Question: is it really enforceable? How?And who does the enforcing?
Have you heard or read (in the law or media) about the enforcement mechanism?

[Cheryl T]

The enforcement would most likely result from a complaint by someone in the restroom that is that biological sex and subsequent security involvement. There will never be a "bathroom police", that would be too costly.

[Rachelakld]

No idea, but if you have a sticker in your bag that declares it an ALL GENDER bathroom, and you stick it over the normal sign when no one was watching, surely that would make it okay?

260362

[Amy Lynn3]

I am of the opinion it would be enforced on a complaint basis. Maybe even if someone is lurking near a restroom, they may get checked out by security. Even after the HB2 was adopted here in NC I think it will be business as usual. If you were presenting as the opposite sex and used that restroom, and did not cause a stir I feel you would be fine. :2c:

[Kate Simmons]

I've not heard of any mechanism for enforcement. As Cheryl said the "potty police" would be too costly. Most likely someone would have to rat on you and file a complaint if they want to go that far. :)

[Pat]

I read an article that said the North Carolina law contains neither enforcement guidelines nor does it specify penalties -- I understand the police and universities are still trying to figure out what to do about it. I don't know about the other laws. It seems like in many cases the legislative action was to roll back regulations that allowed transgender people to use their bathroom of choice and didn't really replace them with anything.

(It'll be fun seeing how long this thread lasts.)

[Amy Fakley]

Well it's not meant to be enforced ... It's just there so when someone decides to make a stink, that the mall police have a reason to call the real police, and that the real police now have a justifiable reason to take you into custody.

Legalized harassment in other words. Just to make sure we know we're not welcome.
Also all the political stuff, which is the real impetus of course.

[arbon]

Just going to the bathroom at the mall not so much to worry about.

But say you have a job and the employer knows you transitioned.
Or you are in school and they know what your birth certificate says.
Or you use a gym where they know you transitioned.

Then it become a bit terrifying to think about.

[Barbara Jo]

if you hassle someone is a public rest room, it has alwyas been against the laws.

The new laws are just more fear mongering aimed at painting TS/TG people as people who should be feared.
It's blatant pandering to homophones.
As pointed out there is no way to enforce such laws.

[arbon]

As pointed out there is no way to enforce such laws.

Tell that to the transitioned women who are forced to use the men's room at work. Now there is law on the employers side.

[mykell]

lets say your red as a CD, squealed on and cited do you now have to register as a sex offender because if your cited youd be guilty for not having the correct part #,
id like to see it enforced and what consequently happens after but i would not wish to be that person, in my state they had cases where folks who simply could not hold it and got caught relieving themselves outside and cited for urinating in public had to register for the sex offender list, the way it is written lawyers are gonna have a field day with this....it just wont stand the test of time, but anyone who gets caught in its wake i feel for you....

[heatherdress]

There is no enforcement mechanism or penalties associated with the NC bathroom law. If a complaint was made to a police department, and if the police department responded to the complaint, and if the reported "offending" person is still in the "wrong" bathroom, there is no requirement to arrest or issue a summons.

I think this is the NC statute. Read it for yourself: http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2015E2/Bills/House/PDF/H2v0.pdf

[Rachael Leigh]

I believe it will be very difficult to enforce but as have been said it's going to require someone to complain. I'm waiting for two things someone to complain that a man brought his young daughter into the bathroom with him, we know it happens and the first time a guy who's dressed as a women complys with the law and goes into the men's room and gets the crap beat out of him. Can you say lawsuit NC . This stuff is all so crazy

[heatherdress]

Let's not ignore that the recent restrictive NC bathroom law was a foolish reaction to Charlotte's transgender protection bathroom law which was also impossible to enforce. Because you simply pass a law, are you really going to be safer or more accepted? Bathroom laws generate a lot of ill will and accomplish little.

[Tracii G]

I spoke with a security guy at a Walmart and he said they have been told not to do anything at this point as far as he knows in N.C.
Here in Ky he said the cost to hire more security isn't the problem its more of a problem denying a persons civil rights.
He did mention since all this came to light not one GG has complained.
I asked him if he personally cared or if there was a store policy against trans people using the room they identified with and he said no of course not.

[PaulaQ]

Short answer: enforcement of such laws would be largely based on vigilantism by cisgender people in or around the restroom.

My opinion, based on talking to my fiancé, who is a licensed police officer, is that a law enforcement action is unlikely. It's more likely to be enforced by your fellow citizens. It would have to go down like this:
1. Someone calls to complain
2. The police show up and somehow the trans person is still in the bathroom (most of us would leave once people start harassing us.)
3. They ask to see the person's ID
4. If the ID isn't consistent with the restroom they are in, they are asked to leave, ticketed, or arrested depending on the law in force at that time, until they provide their birth certificate, or whatever documentation is required by law to establish their birth sex. If their ID is consistent with the restroom they are in, nothing happens, because there would be no evidence they aren't who they say they are.

The reality is that unless this were a high level misdemeanor, the police would be unlikely to take any official action, and if they did anything, it would be to ask the trans person to leave the restroom. They would only be likely to show up in such a situation if they were already at the location by coincidence, or there were reports of a more serious disturbance or altercation.

So unless you are unlucky, it's probable the worst case in terms of law enforcement is you are asked to leave. You are likely to be humiliated by the whole thing.

The more likely enforcement mechanism is you are embarrassed, harangued, and possibly assaulted by one of the other occupants of the restroom, or someone just outside of it. This is MUCH more likely, and a whole lot more dangerous. This might also the be "more serious disturbance or altercation" I mentioned above - the trans person getting the hell beaten out of them by other occupants of the restroom.

On a happy fun note - these types of assaults on trans people by others in the restroom happen quite frequently. Even in places where there are laws protecting the trans person's right to be in the restroom. When the law says we don't have a right to be in those places, it is more or less saying "open season on trans people in restrooms." This is reinforced in versions of these laws by offering a bounty or reward for turning in a trans person who is using a restroom not corresponding to their birth sex.

[Lauri K]

He did mention since all this came to light not one GG has complained

Exactly because using the bathroom you identify with has never been a problem in the first place.

Public Facilities- Laws are basically not enforceable.

Private Owned Facilities i.e. small office less than say 25 employees- varies state to state but likely these will be sticky wickets to deal with.

Texas allows the building owner to create their own policies if they so desire to, reason I know this is that there is a C-Store that has posted a sign on the Women's room door saying NO MEN ALLOWED IN WOMEN'S ROOM. (Didn't slow Lauri down, I went on in and and guess what no problems, the clerk even thanked me on my way out of the store and I did not purchase anything) Technically I broke the law, but short of someone complaining, the law getting called, it's all just noise they are making about nothing.

[Leelou]

I spoke with a security guy at a Walmart and he said they have been told not to do anything at this point as far as he knows in N.C.

I think that hits the nail on the head. No retailer is going to want the legal headache involved with this. I predict that if someone complains to security, it will be handled quietly.

[FrancescaDienes]

I have a question that's a little out of left field, how does this legislation effect cleaning staff? I used to have a job as a cleaner on a caravan park and never had any issues with regard to cleaning the ladies restrooms, though I did have the standard policy of knocking on the door before I went in and left a sign outside saying "male cleaner inside". Will cleaning staff have to abide by their birth gender when it comes to their job? What about law enforcement for that matter? It would seem an odd irony sending male law enforcement officers into female toilets to arrest a someone with a different birth sex. I find it funny that some European countries have unisex toilets, it makes me wonder if there is legislation that specifies the requirement for separate facilities for men and women.

[heatherdress]

Francesca - Bathroom laws that exist provide for cleaning, helping someone who needs assistance, maintenance and emergencies.

[I Am Paula]

It will be enforced by women's big, protective husbands outside the washroom.
I assure you every encounter like this will end badly.

[Tracii G]

If some lady assaults me in a ladies room thats an assault charge I will get away from her call the store security and file charges.
If its some male watching a ladies room with intent to harm me out of some sick twisted idea he has in his head I have no problem dealing with him at all.
What a lot of these bubbas think is we are sissies if I have to use a word for it and forget we are still guys and still able to stomp a mud hole in somebody.
Thats why I really don't worry too much about some guys because they can rarely back up their big mouths.

[summerbunny]

Its only enforceable with a complaint and the other issue is if you are Stealth you won't get a complaint unless you show your privates are do something that attracts attention. I know of stealth CD's and TS that do not cause any attention but if you look like a man in a dress and a wig you will likely get cited are and a complaint.
Its unforunate that looks will dictate this but its real.

[Teresa]

Nicole,
I can't see it being enforceable , UK police don't have the resources , I'm sure US police are the same. The problem is if someone does make a fuss and makes a call, I would still think most people will ignore it as a stupid rule. Some people play safe and use the disabled facility which has to be unisex, so will you be breaking any laws then ?

[summerbunny]

I have seen people arrested for using the restroom.
Depends on call priority of the police.
In west Hollywood the police won't enforce that but it certain areas and places its strictly enforced.

[Eryn]

It will be enforced by women's big, protective husbands outside the washroom.
I assure you every encounter like this will end badly.

Paula, those supposed "big protective husbands" wouldn't care about laws or lack of laws. If your scenario were realistic you'd already hear of TG people encountering these situations regularly. They aren't. You're just spreading groundless fear.

Consider the number of GGs who have masculine features. Do they get challenged? Of course not, because challenging them would be be embarrassing for an individual and lawsuit-inviting for a business.

I'm 6'2". I stand out. People remember me months after a single encounter. I have some hard-to-hide male features. I use restrooms in a wide variety of situations. I stand in line when I have to, chatting with the other women because they want to chat. How they perceive me I cannot say, but I have never had anyone question my presence in the least, either directly or via a "big protective husband."

Now, I'm just one person, but it's logical that if there were a serious problem I'd have encountered it at least once in five years of being out and about.

[Tracii G]

Thats right Eryn.
I have waited in line too and never had one lady complain but have had ladies ask me questions which I was happy to answer.
Had one ask me to help get her hair untangled from an earring.
Had them compliment me on an outfit as well. All have been very nice.

[sterusjon]

I have been out and about often over the past several years. I have never encountered a problem using the the ladies room. But the recent spate of bathroom bills and the accompanying rhetoric makes me concerned. As the saying goes, the profit or loss is in the margins. My concern is that there are a few more that will complain, confront or, even, enforce because they are now backed by a specific law that confirms their viewpoint where in the past they had no such official backing. It will only take the marginal few to change their behavior in a marginal way to make life significantly worse for some of us.

I fully expect these legal setbacks to be challenged and overturned, eventually. In the mean time, we have been put at increased risk of running afoul of the law and vigilante type justice.

Stephanie

[Judy-Somthing]

There will be an male bathroom officer at the entrance of every girls bathroom looking up dresses and skirts!

[nvlady]

Speaking of bathroom attendants, who checks your gender? If a male attendant checks in the ladies room I imagine there would be a few complaints from GGs. If a female attendant checks and the customer turns out to be male there might be a complaint about groping.

[flatlander_48]

The thing that people seem to forget is that ANYONE can be challenged. What that means is that a genetic woman who looks a bit androgynous and is wearing male-leaning clothes could possibly be challenged. Remember that there isn't anything necessarily logical about this and it has already happened.

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

This is really borderline because there is a specific thread for the law in NC. That said, keeps it general (no specific states or laws after this post) and stay in the rules.

So do what the OP asks, OK?

[elita]

If anybody has not read this on Facebook:

A post from Steve Runden of Texas:

"I'm the father of a 21 year old daughter.

There are lots of things I worry about:
I worry about her being sexually assaulted, because that happens a lot.
I worry about her being the victim of a drunk driver, because that happens a lot.
I worry about her being the victim of gun violence, because lots of people die from gun-related injuries.

Here's what I do not worry about:
I don't worry about her being attacked in a restroom by a trans woman because
(a) it has never happened; and
(b) trans women are the most victimized group of people I've ever met, and the least likely to commit a crime of indecency in a restroom, because they are afraid of getting beat up when all they want to do is pee.

And here is something else I don't worry about:
I don't worry about my daughter being cruel and inhumane to trans men, women or kids, because my wife and I have raised her to have values and because she is a kind person.

There are things to worry about. and then there are things people want you to worry about to conceal their agenda of discrimination and hate.

Wake up."

Awesome...

(Modified for ease of reading)

[Claire Cook]

How to enforce it .. hmmm ... let's see ...

1. You have to present your original birth certificate, then
2. They do an on the spot chromosomal smear, so every rest room has to have a microscope

I'm sure they thought of that ....

[Pat]

I spoke with a security guy at a Walmart and he said they have been told not to do anything at this point as far as he knows in N.C.

To be fair, the NC law does not apply to businesses -- apologists for the law frequently point out businesses can set whatever policy they choose. The law only applies to government-owned places -- schools, universities, court houses, etc.

[summerbunny]

Transsexual goes to restroom.woman has daughter in restroom see this complains and the transsexual is beat up badly. It was on every news outlet.it was once a mc donalds and the TS had a birth certifcate change and doctors letter.did not matter to the mother of the daughter.
Even GG women with a few prominent masculine features have more feminine features usually that people mostly don't question them.
There are so many bathroom incidences with transsexuals in the paper i could post them for weeks.it happens regularly but its just now being brought to discussion.



Paula, those supposed "big protective husbands" wouldn't care about laws or lack of laws. If your scenario were realistic you'd already hear of TG people encountering these situations regularly. They aren't. You're just spreading groundless fear.

Consider the number of GGs who have masculine features. Do they get challenged? Of course not, because challenging them would be be embarrassing for an individual and lawsuit-inviting for a business.

I'm 6'2". I stand out. People remember me months after a single encounter. I have some hard-to-hide male features. I use restrooms in a wide variety of situations. I stand in line when I have to, chatting with the other women because they want to chat. How they perceive me I cannot say, but I have never had anyone question my presence in the least, either directly or via a "big protective husband."

Now, I'm just one person, but it's logical that if there were a serious problem I'd have encountered it at least once in five years of being out and about.

[phylis anne]

How to enforce it .. hmmm ... let's see ...

1. You have to present your original birth certificate, then
2. They do an on the spot chromosomal smear, so every rest room has to have a microscope

I'm sure they thought of that ....

meanwhile while waiting for the permit to use the facility ,you of course can no longer hold it any longer -------

- - - Updated - - -

well said .


If anybody has not read this on Facebook:

A post from Steve Runden of Texas:

"I'm the father of a 21 year old daughter.

There are lots of things I worry about:
I worry about her being sexually assaulted, because that happens a lot.
I worry about her being the victim of a drunk driver, because that happens a lot.
I worry about her being the victim of gun violence, because lots of people die from gun-related injuries.

Here's what I do not worry about:
I don't worry about her being attacked in a restroom by a trans woman because
(a) it has never happened; and
(b) trans women are the most victimized group of people I've ever met, and the least likely to commit a crime of indecency in a restroom, because they are afraid of getting beat up when all they want to do is pee.

And here is something else I don't worry about:
I don't worry about my daughter being cruel and inhumane to trans men, women or kids, because my wife and I have raised her to have values and because she is a kind person.

There are things to worry about. and then there are things people want you to worry about to conceal their agenda of discrimination and hate.

Wake up."

Awesome...

(Modified for ease of reading)

[NicoleScott]

Elita, ignoring the OP request and mod warning, your post mentions gun violence, getting beat up, hate, etc. And nothing on topic- enforcement. Head-scratcher.

I asked the question because after thinking about it, I couldn't imagine how enforcement is possible short of bathroom monitors using the Crocodile Dundee method. As DeeAnn pointed out, when someone is wrongly accused of breaking the law, bad things will happen. The more vigorous the attempt to enforce, whether "official" or vigilante, the greater likelihood of trouble.
I suspect there will be intentional civil disobedience (sounds redundant, sorry) in order to challenge the law. Given that there isn't really an enforcement mechanism, I wonder how hard someone will have to try to get arrested. We'll see.
Thanks for your comments.

[Stephanie47]

You posed a good question. From reading articles concerning the law the local law enforcement agencies and attorney generals of municipalities really do not know what to do either. I haven't located the actual article, but, it appears the law in North Carolina is a civil law, not a criminal law. The law contains not civil penalties. There is a lot of head scratching. I know in my municipality, if a person is unruly in a mall and the police are called, the police can issue a citation barring the person from the property. The short coming of the North Carolina is there is no penalty for violating the law or so it appears.

Under a normal law that is written with some forethought in order to enforce the law first the police would have to witness the crime, such has stopping a DUI driver and administering a blood alcohol test, etc. Or, if the police are not present to witness the crime, then a police report would have to be routed to the local district attorney for review for prosecution which normally requires assigning a detective to the case to interview witnesses and gather evidence. Depending upon the nature of the crime and the jurisdiction an order to appear in court to answer the charges would be issued. Or an arrest warrant would be issued. Some jurisdictions based upon the severity of the crime would have to convene a grand jury in order to establish probable cause to issue an arrest warrant.

In Washington State when laws are passed it is stated whether the violation of the law is some level of misdemeanor or felony or civil in nature. And, the law establishes the penalty. Drive a certain number of miles above or below the speed limit and you get hit with a civil traffic citation. Drive way over the speed limit and you are driving into a criminal violation.

From the articles I read the local police departments are scratching their collective heads. The police cannot really arrest a person if it is not a criminal offense. Will the proprietor of a store take a person to court for using the incorrect bathroom and obtain an order barring you from entering the business?

The law is a knee jerk reaction to some perceived non existent problem.

Jennie is correct in as much as the NC law applies only to government facilities. The law annotates which classes of people are protected from discrimination and discriminates against classes by omitting them in the list. As to a violation of the NC law, what would be the consequences of a government employee using the "wrong" restroom in a government office? And, what would the consequences be for a visitor using the "wrong" restroom while at a government office on official business? We'll have to wait and see if a transwoman or transman is evicted from the stall by an onsite security guard or an employee is dismissed?

[ReineD]

Lori, it's hard to not mention specific states because I do have an article from a reporter who did ask specific police departments how they would enforce the law (the OP topic) and this happens to be in NC. This reporter called police departments in four different NC cities.


---------------------------


No idea, but if you have a sticker in your bag that declares it an ALL GENDER bathroom, and you stick it over the normal sign when no one was watching

LOL, I love it! :)

This is what NC police departments told Mother Jones reporter, Samantha Michaels, when she asked:

Raleigh Police Department: "That's a very interesting question. We don't have police officers sitting at public bathrooms all day long," a spokesman said with a laugh.

Greensboro Police Department: "We would respond if we received a complaint. It's not like we would be standing guard at bathrooms," said Susan Danielsen, a spokeswoman for the local police department, also suppressing a laugh.

Wilmington Police Department: spokeswoman Linda Rawley said the law struck her as strange. "So that means people have to go to the bathroom with birth certificates? Yeah, that was curious to me."

Asheville Police Department: spokeswoman Christina Hallingse noted, "We're not checking birth certificates. We just don't have the police power to be able to do that in bathrooms."


http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/04/north-carolina-lgbt-bathrooms-hb2-enforcement



It will be enforced by women's big, protective husbands outside the washroom.

I think you're spreading groundless fear too. First of all, there are so few TGs compared to all the people out there who aren't TG, that it is outside of most people's radar. People just don't think about it. And GGs in this country are not in the habit of bringing husbands with them wherever they go like in the Middle East, so it's not going to happen! And also because people are not on a witch hunt for TGs, GGs aren't going to be constantly vigilant and stare down everyone who is in the bathroom, looking for the slightest clue this person is XY. The TGs and CDers that I know who do go out in public dress to blend and are not out there looking like drag queens. And last but most important, a lot of women truly don't care! You don't seem to realize this and you think that everyone is on a witch hunt.

Besides ... these laws affects government offices and schools and not the private sector so the victims here are TG students while they're at school and TG government employees while they're at work. But even so, check out the Media section for the latest ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit, which ruled in favor of a TG student under Title IX. This affects several states including one that has just passed a bathroom law.

[Jenniferathome]

and this proves the stupidity of the law makers to create a law that can't actually be enforced. These "laws" are for grandstanding politicians.

If the police were actually called AND they responded in time to actually meet the trans person exiting the bathroom, I promise all that wold happen to the accused is that they will be asked if they are ok and to have a nice day. No police force wants to waste their manpower on this kind of crap. I'm guessing that reposes time by police will be measured in hours not seconds.

[Beverley Sims]

From what I have seen over the years, law enforcement is a bit of give and take and a lot of common sense on the part of the police.

If you are doing nothing objectionable but the letter of the law says otherwise then character analysis and any previous convictions come into play.

The laww is an ass but those who have to enforce it are human beings, just like us.

[Sarah Beth]

Here is what I have been thinking on this subject. What if someone goes into a restroom in one of these states where they have this law and someone in there thinks they were born the opposite gender. They go and report that person then who is going to actually check and see what gender that person is? What if it was reported that a man was dressed as woman and in the women's restroom and the police came and then checked and it really was a woman? The wouldn't the police be open to being sued for a violation? Before you say they could have a woman police officer check then what if the person really was a biological male? The same thing applies I would think. I don't know maybe I'm way off base but my wife and were thinking about that.

[Samantha Clark]

The enforcement of laws like this is extremely problematic. It brings to mind a recent article discussing the multidimensional issues surrounding enforcement of "no cis men" at certain gatherings.

http://the-toast.net/2016/04/18/everyone-but-cis-men-creating-better-safe-spaces-for-lgbt-people

[ReineD]

What if someone goes into a restroom in one of these states where they have this law and someone in there thinks they were born the opposite gender.

Actually Sarah Beth, this has happened. I can't remember which state it was in, but a masculine looking woman was harassed for using the women's bathroom. Maybe someone else will remember the story and provide a link. I can't remember if law enforcement was called.

But I dare say that that people are falsely arrested occasionally, for all kinds of reasons not just gender-bathroom related. It does happen but for the most part, it doesn't.

[flatlander_48]

As it appears that a citizen's complaint is needed to initiate things, my guess is that most people would probably choose not to get involved UNLESS there is something really suspicious looking going on or they are a zealot wishing to make waves and draw attention. In effect, in their minds they would be reinforcing the notion that the law was right all along.

Earlier I mentioned a scenario where a genetic woman could inadvertently be caught up in all of this. However, another variation came to me.

Suppose you're a trans woman who transitioned in place. When you transition was mostly completed, you transferred to a different division of your employer at the other end of the country. No one at the new location knows of your former life and you've been well accepted into the group as One Of The Girls. HR has vowed to be on lock down regarding the details of your former life, so you feel pretty confident that you are firmly entrenched in your new life. However, one significant thing that your documents still say M. This is next on your list of things to do, but it hasn't happened just yet.

Now, some may say that you can change gender markers earlier in the process, but anecdotally what I've seen here is that people tend to do it late or at the end of the transition process. Also, aren't there places that you can only make those changes when you are essentially finished with transition and places where changes are not done under any circumstances?

Anyway, you and 3-4 genetic women from your work group are sent to a conference in a state that has the kind of laws that are under discussion here. At a restaurant during a potty break, for whatever reason (and there's nothing that really suggests the circumstances of your birth), another customer decides to challenge your usage of the women's restroom. Remember that there is nothing logical about any of this, so thinking that you'll never get challenged is just not useful. So, the result is that in addition to non-matching information, you are now busted with respect to your co-workers. All the effort put into stealth has gone for naught. And, as is said about the coming out process, once you lose the narrative, you won't get it back...


Actually Sarah Beth, this has happened. I can't remember which state it was in, but a masculine looking woman was harassed for using the women's bathroom. Maybe someone else will remember the story and provide a link. I can't remember if law enforcement was called.

The one that I had in mind when I mentioned this happened in a restaurant in downtown Detroit. As I remember, the woman didn't look particularly masculine, but her hair was fairly short. I believe she was wearing jeans and a flannel shirt.


PS: You CANNOT change the gender marker on your birth certificate in Idaho, Ohio, Tennessee and Kansas.

DeeAnn

[heatherdress]

Nicole's basic question is about enforcement is not addressed in either the bathroom rights law or the bathroom restriction law which sparked debate. If there are no provisions for violations or arrests, there is no enforcement intent or ability. As already stated, these laws are symbolic and political, and don't accomplish much except controversy. Most of the anecdotes stated are hearsay and inaccurate. There are no mass toilet arrests being made. Unfounded fears and treats of vigilantism and bathroom attacks promote more fear. Lack of toilet paper and cleanliness are more important to public bathroom users than the attire of people using the facilities. Crossdressers will continue to use the bathroom they need to use and will more than likely only be limited by their own sense of discretion for others and fear of any personal embarrassment they may have regardless of the sign on the door.


Here is a real world example of a recent man in bathroom-related arrest:

A 6 year old girl enters a public bathroom and a man follows her in. She panics and screams. The man grabs her and tries unsuccessfully to silence her. He exits. Police are called. They identify him on surveillance cameras. He is subsequently arrested - for assault.

http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/86762439-story

People will continue to be arrested for crimes committed in public bathrooms - vandalism, loitering, drug sales - not for the attire they wear.

[summerbunny]

There was a transman who looked like a man but had womens hidden parts still that went into the woman's restroom and woman complained there was a man in the restroom. Police responded and verified that it was a FTM transman.
So the women were uncomfortable and had to deal with it.
There was a TS in the news that looked like a woman but in the women's stall would standup to do the duty like a man and a complaint was filed and they were arrested several times for the same thing and as a result is on probation.


The young Turks talks very thoroughly about this issue and gives a great response.
How Police Will Enforce Transgender Bathroom Ban
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?239302-a-more-thoroughly-thought-out-discussion-on-bathroom-enforcement

[ReineD]

Tell that to the transitioned women who are forced to use the men's room at work. Now there is law on the employers side.

Arbon, thirty years ago in Western culture, just about everyone would have been fired for transitioning. It is taking time for companies to change their policies and now, most Fortune 500 companies have comprehensive policies that do support transition.

Smaller companies are following suit (according to the stories I've head in the TS section of people who are successfully transitioning on the job), but it is taking time. If a company fires someone for using the women's bathroom it is not because of bathroom laws but because they disapprove of transitioning, period. But increasingly, there is more and more protection:

http://transgenderlawcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/TitleVII-Report-Final012414.pdf
https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/transgender-people-and-law

It's just a question of time before these anti-TG bathroom laws are found to be unconstitutional. And we are still increasingly in better shape than it ever has been.

[GaleWarning]

Reading this thread, a curious thought occurred to me.
How many GGs have had to use the men's room at some stage or other, because either
1. The queue in the ladies was way too long or
2. The state of hygiene in the ladies was not acceptable, for some reason?

I have often seen this, and the guys understood and were always respectful.

(Why is it that my take on a topic is always off-beat? Beats me!)

[ReineD]

The one that I had in mind when I mentioned this happened in a restaurant in downtown Detroit. As I remember, the woman didn't look particularly masculine, ..

You be the judge. I found the article: http://www.advocate.com/business/2015/06/17/detroit-woman-kicked-out-restaurant-bathroom-looking-man-sues

She wasn't arrested after all. She was thrown out of the restaurant.

There is a lawsuit, according to the article, and Michigan does have LGBT protection:
https://www.equalitymi.org/resources/cities-with-legal-protection



How many GGs have had to use the men's room at some stage or other

I have but only a few times, when the lines were so long for the ladies rooms, there wouldn't have been enough time during intermission. I peeked in the door first and saw no one in the men's, and so I went. Other women followed me.

I don't think that any man walking in behind us would have felt threatened though. Just as I don't think that the majority of GGs would feel threatened by someone who is transitioning. Of course I don't know everyone who is transitioning, but the people that I do know and the pictures that I do see do not look like the mind's eye image that a lot of people have, when they think of "predators wearing dresses".

[Robin414]

Great point, reminds me of a Family Guy episode where Peter punches a pregnant woman who happens to look like a guy!

[scarlett]

No idea, but if you have a sticker in your bag that declares it an ALL GENDER bathroom, and you stick it over the normal sign when no one was watching, surely that would make it okay?

260362
Where do we get such stickers? I'm all in.

[PaulaQ]

Unfounded fears and treats of vigilantism and bathroom attacks promote more fear. Lack of toilet paper and cleanlines

Unfortunately, something like 70% of trans people are verbally or physically abused (9%) in public restrooms. I can tell you annecdotally - but I believe the anecdotes because some of them are from people I know personally, that the climate that anti-Trans propaganda creates more harassment and assault. We will probably break last years record number of trans people who are murdered, and we are dealing with a LOT of suicidal trans people locally - I've already been to one such person's funeral this year. :(

I'm not trying to be contrary or alarmist. And I wish I didn't have these types of things to report, because I am really worried that someone else in my area will end up dead.

I believe the hostility created towards us are an intended consequence of these laws.

[heatherdress]

You be the judge. I found the article: http://www.advocate.com/business/2015/06/17/detroit-woman-kicked-out-restaurant-bathroom-looking-man-sues

She wasn't arrested after all. She was thrown out of the restaurant.
There is a lawsuit, according to the article, and Michigan does have LGBT protection:
https://www.equalitymi.org/resources/cities-with-legal-protection


Reine - This is not an example of a transgender bathroom incident. The woman was a GG female. And there is no prohibitive bathroom law in Detroit, or Michigan. In fact, this unfortunate incident happened in spite of a well-publicized gender protection Detroit law. A GG woman was thrown out of the ladies room and the restaurant because she mistakenly looked like a man. Ridiculous and unfortunate. So even in a place which has gender protective laws, there is no guarantee that it will be effective. And a bathroom incident occurred even though there was no prohibitive bathroom law.

[flatlander_48]

Reine - This is not an example of a transgender bathroom incident.

No, in effect it is. Anti-discrimination statutes of this type protect the stated constituency, and by extension, also those who are perceived to be of that constituency. In this case, a genetic woman was perceived to be transgender.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Reine - This is not an example of a transgender bathroom incident.

Are you familiar with the TG website, Susans.org/Susan's Place? They had an article (https://www.susans.org/2015/06/14/alleged-detroit-bathroom-assault-avoidable/) on her and they think she is TG. They could be wrong. I suppose no one knows for sure. I'm using "she" pronouns because I don't know either. But it doesn't matter whether she is or not, what matters is they threw her out of the restaurant because they thought she was a man using the women's bathrooms.

[heatherdress]

No, in effect it is. Anti-discrimination statutes of this type protect the stated constituency, and by extension, also those who are perceived to be of that constituency. In this case, a genetic woman was perceived to be transgender.

DeeAnn

DeeAnn - You miss the point. Most significant is the fact that Detroit has a very strong gender-related anti-discrimination law - and this happened anyway. And Detroit does not have a bathroom restriction law - and this happened anyway.

Seems to represent an answer to bot enforcement and effect of these laws, both protective and descriptive.

Also, it is another example of misinformation. This unfortunate woman is a GG female, not a transgender person. And she was not arrested.

Manipulation of information on both "sides" promotes unnecessary fear and unfortunate ill-will.

[NicoleScott]

Past incidents have nothing to do with the question: how will recent bathroom bills (assignment by birth sex) be enforced?

[sometimes_miss]

Well it's not meant to be enforced ... It's just there so when someone decides to make a stink, that the mall police have a reason to call the real police, and that the real police now have a justifiable reason to take you into custody.
Had this discussion on numerous other forums of late. Basically what it comes down to, is 1. The fear that some drunken cis male will post himself in the ladies room and harass the young females in there, using the excuse as posing as a transgender person as his right to be there, and 2. the right winger parents don't want to have to talk to their kids about real transgender people that their kids might see. Because when pressed to provide an example of a true transgender person assaulting someone, they can't even come up with one example. Beyond that, it's a simple case of people feeling uncomfortable about having a transgender person in the vicinity of themselves, and we addressed that problem back when we went through the segregation laws in the last century; you can't remove people from a public space just because you don't like the idea of sharing a space with them.

[flatlander_48]

Past incidents have nothing to do with the question: how will recent bathroom bills (assignment by birth sex) be enforced?

It does and it doesn't.

In the Detroit case, the woman offered documentation that was labeled F. Ultimately, it seems that this is the only real defense a person can have. However, that will not protect you from being challenged. If one is attempting to fly under the radar, it can be a very telling question.

At present, there are 4 states where the gender marker on your birth certificate cannot be changed. With that as a reference, you may not be able to change other personal documents. The net effect is that you're just screwed.

It could be that you have a letter from a medical professional attesting to your transition status, but I don't know if that has any legal standing. Someone could always say that a signature was faked on stolen letterhead.

Anyway, it is a very odd situation if there is no statement of what one would need to prove innocence and what the penalty is if one cannot prove innocence.

DeeAnn

[tbryant2k16]

How will these laws work with FtoM? Now your going to have very male looking women using the women's room because that's what they were born as?

[Launa]

In the area I live in they are enforced by the local police. However they are not out watching for us but they become involved when someone wants to file a complaint. Currently if someone complains then you can be charged for being a nuisance. Apparently the investigating officer will make a decision whether or not it is worth laying charges.

[tbryant2k16]

If all your doing is going in and doing your business and not causing any problems. Then there is no reason for any nuisance charges. Quite frankly if your causing a nuisance in any restroom or anywhere, you deserve the charges. And a GG could also get the nuisance charge if she's the one causing the nuisance.

[ReineD]

Most significant is the fact that Detroit has a very strong gender-related anti-discrimination law - and this happened anyway. And Detroit does not have a bathroom restriction law - and this happened anyway.

She is suing for $25,000 and the case is still open. I just find it exceedingly strange that they would refuse to even look at her ID when she offered to show it to them ... AFTER they had heard her voice, especially as you say, in a large city that has gender anti-discrimination laws. The restaurant, Fishbone's, is a chain with 2 other restaurants so it is a fairly large operation. They would be aware of laws and they'd have policies in place, more so I think than a small Mom&Pop type restaurant in the middle of nowhere. So I wonder if there was another disagreement/dispute than the bathroom issue that is not coming out in the news. The restaurant is not commenting.

So Cortney Bogorad is suing three entities: A male individual (I'm guessing the security guard in question), the security company, and the restaurant. There's a date set next fall for a settlement discussion.

[Zooey]

...and Michigan does have LGBT protection:
https://www.equalitymi.org/resources/cities-with-legal-protection

Reine, it can be a bit obtuse but you need to read pages like this pretty carefully. According to this page...


There is no STATEWIDE protection in Michigan (definitely true)
Of the cities listed there

Some have protections based on sexual orientation, but not gender identity/expression
Most only cover one or two areas (typically housing and employment)
The only city with a public accommodations clause is Flint, but their ordinance does not cover gender identity/expression



So basically, according to that site, there are no cities in Michigan where a non-discrimination ordinance comprehensively covers the rights of transgender or gender non-conforming individuals to use bathrooms in accordance to their gender identity or expression. Like many places, those with female ID markers are likely to be "okay", but Michigan only recently allowed those who have not had GRS to do so (by updating their passports first).

It's not clear that this site is 100% accurate or up to date though, as e.g. Bay City has recently passed a non-discrimination ordinance which appears to cover discrimination in public accommodation. So does Ann Arbor's, Detroit's, East Lansing's, Traverse City's, and I'm sure others. I really wish that there were better comprehensive roundups for this stuff.

[tbryant2k16]

Hope she gets the full amount and the security guard fired.

And with these laws being passed, situations like this could come up far more frequently. Anyone who doesn't look like the typical female will be scrutinized even when they they are biologically female.

[Launa]

If all your doing is going in and doing your business and not causing any problems. Then there is no reason for any nuisance charges. Quite frankly if your causing a nuisance in any restroom or anywhere, you deserve the charges. And a GG could also get the nuisance charge if she's the one causing the nuisance.

Right but the accuser calling the police complains that a person male or female is in the wrong bathroom. So then you are now guilty and have to prove your innocence and your right to be there. From what I have discussed with long time Trans folk in my area is that the cop has a big bearing on whether or not to help the accuser lay charges. So if you get a cop like the 1 from Texas then you will get charged and apparently beaten.

[xNicolex]

I don't think it is enforceable because how many people will actually check your birth sex. ''excuse me sir/mam could I see your birth certificate before entering this rest room?'' lol there are so many women out there that look like men, I'm not being mean but there are. It's just not realistic, If it were the restroom police would join forces with the fashion police and say we couldn't pee sitting down or dress either :heehee:

[heatherdress]

Right but the accuser calling the police complains that a person male or female is in the wrong bathroom. So then you are now guilty and have to prove your innocence and your right to be there. From what I have discussed with long time Trans folk in my area is that the cop has a big bearing on whether or not to help the accuser lay charges. So if you get a cop like the 1 from Texas then you will get charged and apparently beaten.

Reality - If a person calls the police to complain, and if the police respond to investigate a person in the wrong gender bathroom, and if the police arrive before the bathroom violator leaves the wrong bathroom, there might be some investigation. The legal principal in the US is there has to be some proof that a crime has been committed for a person to be arrested. Accusers do no lay charges with the cop and there is no data to suggest that you then get charged and beaten.

[tbryant2k16]

Maybe in some of those places. But the odds of you even being around by time the police arrive on a non-high priority call is likely very remote. But in reality, how often does that actually occur? Extremely rare.

[Launa]

Reality - If a person calls the police to complain, and if the police respond to investigate a person in the wrong gender bathroom, and if the police arrive before the bathroom violator leaves the wrong bathroom, there might be some investigation. The legal principal in the US is there has to be some proof that a crime has been committed for a person to be arrested. Accusers do no lay charges with the cop and there is no data to suggest that you then get charged and beaten.

Reality is I'm saying it can happen and has happened to an acquaintance of mine in one of our big cities. It happened at a large hotel where a GG complained about a TS and asked to see her ID as the GG said she was in the wrong washroom. The Trans girl refused to do it and the GG turned it into a big stink. It was diffused because when everybody came to investigate the transgirl had all her gender markers changed so they told the GG she was making a scene. Now I was being sarcastic when I was talking about getting charged and beaten but reality is the investigating officer does have some clout on whether or not to help diffuse things or impose their will. Imagine if a cop like this one comes to do the investigation. Do you think he will have an influence? Maybe add in a lie or two?

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/texas-cop-id-beat-a-trans-woman-unconscious-if-she-tried-to-share-a-bathroom-with-my-daughter/



Sorry but I'm not always good at attaching links hopefully you can open it.

[ReineD]

Reality is I'm saying it can happen

Launa, anything "can" happen. I could get shot at the grocery store. There was a shooting just down my street a few weeks ago. I could get run over when I cross the street. Someone might break into my house. A drunk driver might plough into my car on the freeway. My plane could crash.

Do most people have these things happen? No. It's unfortunate when they do happen, in fact it's tragic in the event of severe injury or death, but we have Court systems for redress. So the likelihood of TGs getting arrested when they use the bathroom of choice is very small. Think of it. You go pee, you wash your hands, and you're gone long before any police officer can get there.

The person in the article above - is she the only person of questionable gender (to onlookers) in the country to have used a bathroom that people didn't think she should use? No. There likely have been tens of thousands. But how many instances have there been like hers. Twenty five? Fifty? In a country of 7 billion people.

What I find intriguing is the level of panic that some people are spreading, as if these headlines describe the situation and the fate of all TGs all the time, even in the states that are passing these bills (which, BTW, will be proven unconstitutional eventually). The reality is that tens of thousands of TGs do go out without issues even in those states. Do some TGs get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup. Do other people get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup, that happens too.

So sure, it's not perfect and the TG bill situation is especially dysfunctional right now (as long as we have political groups funding these wedge issues for the purpose of diverting votes during this election process), but then the situation as a whole is immensely better than it was 30 or 40 years ago when the cross-gender expression was considered a mental illness. And didn't people get arrested for indecency for dressing in public?

So where is everyone's perspective! :p

[summerbunny]

With Trespassing laws

Here is someone who was arrested for standing up and using it in the women's restroom causing a disturbance. Their using trespassing laws against the transsexual.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/13/17733363-transgender-woman-banned-from-idaho-grocery-store-over-restroom-use?lite



Past incidents have nothing to do with the question: how will recent bathroom bills (assignment by birth sex) be enforced?

[PaulaQ]

Once again, enforcement will RARELY be by the police unless you are astoundingly unlucky. It will be by private citizens in the form of harassment or assault. And trying to make it sound like assaults and harassment are rarities for trans people is really dishonest. Unfortunately, a great many of us have encountered such situations. I certainly have, and I know many others who have as well.

Of course, there have been a couple of law enforcement officials who've threatened violence upon trans people they find in the women's room. One of them is in my area.

[summerbunny]

FTM look convincing just from testosterone shots and top surgery and there have been incidents. It was discussed on the YouTube show The Young Turks. A transman goes into the female restroom because they still have a female birth certificate and women complain that a man is in the restroom are that they are uncomfortable with a transsexuals in the restroom with them.


How will these laws work with FtoM? Now your going to have very male looking women using the women's room because that's what they were born as?

[Eryn]

...And trying to make it sound like assaults and harassment are rarities for trans people is really dishonest.

How can the truth be dishonest? Thousands of us visit restrooms every day without incident. Incidents of harassment are few enough that they are discussed individually in detail.


Unfortunately, a great many of us have encountered such situations. I certainly have, and I know many others who have as well.

I'm sorry you've had a problem. My social circle, which includes TG folks who have been going out since the '60s, doesn't report any, and we have discussed this issue at length.

Certainly I I'm aware of the possibility and avoid questionable situations, but I'm not going to allow a tiny number of incidents to cause me unfounded fear.

[ReineD]

I'm sorry you've had a problem. My social circle, which includes TG folks who have been going out since the '60s, doesn't report any, and we have discussed this issue at length.

Same here. I know a lot of TSs, CDers, TGs who go out freely without harassment. Gosh, even one of the TGs who lives in Mississippi who contributes to the TS section regularly says that everything's OK in Mississippi! Will some people get comments by people who disapprove? Sure, that has always been there. About 4-5 years ago a truck full of teenagers drove by and yelled out to my SO "You transsexual freak!". But I would be dishonest if claimed this represents the way we are usually treated. We have gone out countless times, in many states including Southern states, in all sorts of different venues, and we have been treated with respect.

We simply cannot take isolated incidents of bias and hold them up to be the rule, anymore than we can take isolated cases of men doing illegal acts in women's bathrooms and say they are representative of the TS/TG/CD community, like this politically-motivated group claims in this article: http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/04/23/twenty-stories-proving-targets-pro-transgender-bathroom-policy-danger-women-children/





... as soon as this awful election year is over with, the anti-LGBT hate rhetoric will die down (provided a moderate Justice will replace Scalia on the Supreme Court). Anti-LGBT bills are merely a convenient tool right now to advance political goals by the conservatives, desperate to win. It's a wedge issue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_issue), handsomely funded by the people who have always funded wedge issues (like gay marriage, abortion, birth control under Obamacare, climate change, minimum wage, etc) to make sure that political parties who take care of the 1% interests will remain in power.

[Lexi_83]

A lot of the places where I've gone out have a "family" bathroom that has both symbols and handicap. I try to check them out in advance in drab to be sure.

[Tina_gm]

I think the bill isn't really about enforcement so much as it is meant as a means of pandering to certain groups who will view the bill to not allow as correct. I believe also it is about getting people divided in this country, which is has always been a tactic, but seems to be on the rise as of late. Before there was a bill to allow or not allow, there was.... nothing, and with it basically we heard nothing in the way of people complaining about TG people in public using the restroom of their current presentation. Now we have a gazillion hateful memes floating about, and all kinds of hateful remarks flung around whenever there is a media piece done about it, either for or against. Before, there was basically nothing mentioned. No one really had a problem, and most likely there was probably an expectation that a TG person presenting opposite of their birth sex would use the bathroom they were presenting in. No one was running for the hills.

On two occasions, I have used the women's bathroom (dressed male) because it was urgent and the men's was closed for repair or in use. Both times I ran into a woman, one was fine with it and understood I just needed to use a bathroom. The other was an elderly lady that I guess felt it was more appropriate I mess myself.... but even then, it was just a mean dirty look, even after excusing myself and saying the men's was closed.

[summerbunny]

In the 1960 you would of been Arrested and charged with a misdemeanor then put on probation.
http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=80102

1845 statute prohibiting cross-dressing. As originally enacted, the New York statute made it a crime to assemble “disguised” in public places

an arrestable offence
the 1845 statute that made it a crime in the state to masquerade
Attention divas, According to Oakland's Code of Ordinances, your style is illegal.

Immoral Dress Code 9.08.080 has been in place since 1879: “It is unlawful for any person in the city to appear in any public place nude or in the attire of a person of the opposite sex, or in any indecent or lewd attire.”
In terms of concentration of same sex couples, Oakland is ranked among the top five major metropolitan areas in the nation. Certainly our city is as socially conscious as it is diverse. Yet shockingly, in 2010, cross-dressing remains an offense “against public peace and decency.”

April Ashley, Teri Toye both lost their careers when they where outed.
It was illegal to Masquerade (cross dress). it was a misdemeanors an arrestable offense.




How can the truth be dishonest? Thousands of us visit restrooms every day without incident. Incidents of harassment are few enough that they are discussed individually in detail.



I'm sorry you've had a problem. My social circle, which includes TG folks who have been going out since the '60s, doesn't report any, and we have discussed this issue at length.

Certainly I I'm aware of the possibility and avoid questionable situations, but I'm not going to allow a tiny number of incidents to cause me unfounded fear.

[PaulaQ]

I'm sorry you've had a problem.

You can find a thread here about what happened to one of my friends. "Pass, or Die" (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?215038-quot-Pass-or-Die-quot&p=3530900&viewfull=1#post3530900)

Unfortunately, I've seen numerous other acts of aggression, violence and harassment against trans people in my area.

My own personal experience with it was a guy who wanted to rape me because I was trans. Yeah, go figure. He knew exactly where to look to find someone like me, too. I'd never imagined predators would target support organizations, but it turns out, some of them do. Who knew? The three hours that ensued were unpleasant, to put it mildly.


Certainly I I'm aware of the possibility and avoid questionable situations, but I'm not going to allow a tiny number of incidents to cause me unfounded fear.

You live in California, hon. It's different in many other places. We are well on our way to breaking records for the numbers of us being murdered this year. There's a candidate for sheriff in my area who advocated beating to a pulp any trans woman he found in the women's room while his daughter was in there. Think about that for a minute. He subsequently apologized, but a significant number of local folks seem to agree with him.

A lot of us don't have the luxury of avoiding questionable situations. I'm very happy for you, and for ReineD's SO that you do.

I can tell you that at least in my area, quite a lot of incidents happen to us that are never reported to the police, or to the press.

And no, I don't believe that just because I know lots of people who've had stuff happen to them, that this happens to all of us. I know plenty of people who haven't really experienced anything bad. That's wonderful for them too. We should all have the experience. We don't, and I suggest, under the present circumstances, that people might consider being a bit more cautious while out. No, of course you can't stop living your life. And no, for the most part, peasants with torches don't show up every time one of us takes a leak. Except sometimes, they really do show up.

[flatlander_48]

There's a candidate for sheriff in my area who advocated beating to a pulp any trans woman he found in the women's room while his daughter was in there. Think about that for a minute. He subsequently apologized, but a significant number of local folks seem to agree with him.

Totally unacceptable that a candidate for any office would espouse violence. An apology that no one will remember is useless. The fact is that what he said will legitimize the concept for some and those are the ones to watch (if we only knew who). In this case, pre-disposition and legitimacy are a bad intersection.

DeeAnn

[Launa]

Launa, anything "can" happen. I could get shot at the grocery store. There was a shooting just down my street a few weeks ago. I could get run over when I cross the street. Someone might break into my house. A drunk driver might plough into my car on the freeway. My plane could crash.

Do most people have these things happen? No. It's unfortunate when they do happen, in fact it's tragic in the event of severe injury or death, but we have Court systems for redress. So the likelihood of TGs getting arrested when they use the bathroom of choice is very small. Think of it. You go pee, you wash your hands, and you're gone long before any police officer can get there.

The person in the article above - is she the only person of questionable gender (to onlookers) in the country to have used a bathroom that people didn't think she should use? No. There likely have been tens of thousands. But how many instances have there been like hers. Twenty five? Fifty? In a country of 7 billion people.

What I find intriguing is the level of panic that some people are spreading, as if these headlines describe the situation and the fate of all TGs all the time, even in the states that are passing these bills (which, BTW, will be proven unconstitutional eventually). The reality is that tens of thousands of TGs do go out without issues even in those states. Do some TGs get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup. Do other people get killed in obscure motel rooms? Yup, that happens too.

So sure, it's not perfect and the TG bill situation is especially dysfunctional right now (as long as we have political groups funding these wedge issues for the purpose of diverting votes during this election process), but then the situation as a whole is immensely better than it was 30 or 40 years ago when the cross-gender expression was considered a mental illness. And didn't people get arrested for indecency for dressing in public?

So where is everyone's perspective! :p

Yes this is true anything can happen. Years ago I had my house broken into while I slept and a few things were stolen. Will it happen again? Maybe but not likely cause I keep everything lock up pretty tight. A few years back my friends wife was killed by a drunk driver. Back in 1984 my friend that still performs at drag shows was shot at in a parking lot because she was a queen. The same year she performed at the only gay bar and one weekend a large crowd gathered outside the club demanding that the owners had to turn over the Queens to the crowd. The doors to the club were quickly locked and riot police were called in to disperse the mob. 2 weeks later it happened all over again. I can hear everybody say good heavens that was the mid 80's.LOL Will anything like this happen to me this weekend or tomorrow? Probably not.
The difference is all these things can happen, not very likely and only a portion of it is within our control. The washroom law is a problem for some of us but not all and it is within our control. Myself I don't pass at all so its a problem using the womens other girls that can pass easier is not as big of a problem for them. The other problem for me is I want to always stay on the RIGHT side of the law when I'm out. Now if I were in the womens and someone made a scene would I stick around waiting for the cops to show up ? Heck no I wouldn't stay there but thats assuming I was at a gas station, 7-11 or coffee shop etc. If I was at a pub, restaurant bar and it happens I would probably stick around because I'm not necessarily going to pay the tab and run out the door. Regardless even if I left the establishment it would be easy to give a description of me to the cops and I hang around the local drag scene to a certain degree so I could be fairly easily found.
But I probably shouldn't worry too much anyway because I usually use the mens washroom. Last Pride Parade in Edmonton I had a GG follow me into the mens room at a big pub thinking I was going into the womens. She was shocked and I said well now you know what it looks like. I said yeah I use the mens when I can and she said I appreciate that.
Last Christmas I was at a charity event at a large restaurant and I was in the mens room in a stall and this voice said to me from the other side I think your in the wrong washroom. I came out of the stall as fast as I could, looked him in the eye and said well if you think I can perfectly pass as a woman then I will to go use the womens facilities. He could see I was pissed off and immediately left then his friend said hey man your cool and gave me a high fist. Now because there is no law in place some folks will accuse me of starting trouble and maybe there is some law I could get charged with if the cops thought I was playing silly bugger. You just can't win LOL

[ReineD]

Back in 1984 my friend that still performs at drag shows was shot at in a parking lot because she was a queen. The same year she performed at the only gay bar and one weekend a large crowd gathered outside the club demanding that the owners had to turn over the Queens to the crowd. The doors to the club were quickly locked and riot police were called in to disperse the mob. 2 weeks later it happened all over again. I can hear everybody say good heavens that was the mid 80's.

This is a reminder that it was horrible during the 1980s everywhere, in Canada and the US. It has improved tremendously since then, even in the US. The issue now is the possibility of being fined for using a bathroom (in a few states). NOT having crowds demand the release all the DQs for lynching purposes!

True we also have the Religious Freedom Bill in a couple of states and although the penalties would be harsh for the perpetrators if LGBTs were harmed just for walking into a business, LGBTs can still suffer the inconvenience and indignity of being refused service, by those few extremist businesses stupid enough to refuse business. This is clearly unconstitutional and these bills cannot be reversed soon enough.



Myself I don't pass at all so its a problem using the womens ...
But I probably shouldn't worry too much anyway because I usually use the mens washroom. Last Pride Parade in Edmonton I had a GG follow me into the mens room at a big pub thinking I was going into the womens. She was shocked and I said well now you know what it looks like. I said yeah I use the mens when I can and she said I appreciate that.

Then I commend you for not using the women's rooms. I can understand the reluctance to have men who look like men using the ladies, even that GG in Alberta appreciated it. Also, why would a male-identified person want to use a facility for female-identified people, if there are alternatives.

I feel comfortable about it if it's someone I know obviously (my SO has used women's bathrooms when there was no other choice), but if I saw a random male dressed in the bathroom who didn't have the tell-tale signs of transition, I admit it would cross my mind to wonder why he was there, simply because I never see people who are visibly CDers in women's bathrooms. I'd certainly give him-her the benefit of doubt though, but I'd be aware of the situation just in case. And if I've run across a transitioner, I wouldn't know it because I'm not in the habit of closely examining every other person in the bathroom.

These laws are harmful to people who are or have transitioned, but I wonder how many MtF transitioners downright look like men, after electrolysis, HRT, FFS (for some), etc. Judging by the pictures in our TS section and the people I do know who have transitioned, there's a lot of effort and expense poured into transitioning and I cannot imagine there being issues the majority of the time especially in non-anti-LGBT-bill states, and even in those states a TS who lives in Mississippi said that she has no issues.

A few people in this forum have had severe issues (Marcelle was beaten up last year in Ontario I believe), but the majority of posts from our members recount stories about others more than having experienced negative consequences personally.



Last Christmas I was at a charity event at a large restaurant and I was in the mens room in a stall and this voice said to me from the other side I think your in the wrong washroom. I came out of the stall as fast as I could, looked him in the eye and said well if you think I can perfectly pass as a woman then I will to go use the womens facilities. He could see I was pissed off and immediately left then his friend said hey man your cool and gave me a high fist.

And that's the other thing. You owned it and the guys left you alone. Good for you! :)

Still, do you mostly go to venues with no single-user facilities? My SO goes out a lot in the daytime for some shopping or doing work at coffee shops with lunch somewhere, so it's not difficult to find single-user bathrooms. My SO is not TS and has not taken steps to alter her body.

[Launa]

A few people in this forum have had severe issues (Marcelle was beaten up last year in Ontario I believe), but the majority of posts from our members recount stories about others more than having experienced negative consequences personally.

Still, do you mostly go to venues with no single-user facilities?

Do I still go to venues with no singular - user facilities? If its a coffee shop or something like it then yes we have singular facilities here such as Starbucks Coffee but most of the time at the big pubs like Original Joe's in Canada which is similar to say like a Red Onion in the USA does not have a facility you can go into by yourself. And even if there was a family washroom there, forget it as my last time trying to use a family washroom was a disaster. LOL
Not to digress too much but maybe you folks could appreciate this story here. Last year I went to San Francisco on a business/holiday trip, I just got into the city and got dressed in my hotel room and headed out to the big mall south of San Fran to do some shopping. Everything was great and it was time to use the washroom so as I was looking around for one and I saw the main information desk and went up to it only to see that a mall cop was in attendance. So I told her "the cop" I was from Canada and was not sure of the current laws of the land and basically " what should I do?" She said just go down by the food court and use the family washroom. I said ok and went down there to the very busy washrooms. I saw the family room was vacant so I said ok use it and I opened the door fast only to find a 3 year old kid sitting on the potty and a mother changing a diaper. I gasped and said oh no with big wide eyes! Then the woman said I'm sorry I forgot to lock the door. Then I said I'm sorry in my male voice and closed the door. What a shit show I said and started laughing and said screw this. I went straight into the mens room and have never tried a family room again. LOL

since then I don't know what to do as I refuse to use a family room. I feel they are for elderly, physically challenged people or families. I'm not special needs and will not take up that space. I never want to be part of the whiny Trans population that can be out there. Its one of the reasons we are hated so much as a group.

As far as the folks that never have issues anywhere at all and the world is all Pollyanna! I can say is that is great cause it means you must pass very well For me if I hear one snicker in a crowd I look in that direction for the snickering ******* and not to be confrontational at all but I'm not going to back down either.

[Robin414]

Anyone interested in crowd funding.my latest idea...the genitalia scanner for washroom access!

It's guaranteed not to expose you to much more radiation than an ill informed Chernobyl first responder! ☺

OK, they're all dead, whatever, It's better than letting a TS female with lower T leveles than most GGs use the ladies room right!

[Georgette_USA]

It's better than letting a TS female with lower T leveles than most GGs use the ladies room right!


T levels can be all over the place. Mine are in the normal range for a post-menopausal female.

[ReineD]

since then I don't know what to do as I refuse to use a family room. I feel they are for elderly, physically challenged people or families. I'm not special needs and will not take up that space.

If you're in a state that would fine you under the current anti-bathroom bills, it would be best to use those rooms. Likely the next person ahead of you will have locked the door. Also, the "family" rooms need to stop being just for "family" and instead be designated for everyone.

Young people are generally more open-minded than the generation before them, and I love what a lot of universities are doing. Some are designating ALL bathrooms open to everyone. One university had them labelled "With stalls", "With stalls and urinals", and "single-user".

I have a story for you. My SO and I went out to dinner tonight at a national chain, popular family sandwich/salad place. The father at the table next to us was visibly transgender (I'm using this term because I don't know how the dad identifies) although to me the dad looked like the dad was gender-bending. I'm reluctant to use "he" or "she" again because I don't know how this person identifies. The dad had longish curly white hair that could be construed as a short femme afro, or a longish male haircut on someone who has curly hair. The dad was wearing no makeup, earrings, a gold chain, rings and a bracelet, and a stretch (tight) purple long-sleeved tee with a scoop neckline, that clearly showed chest development (the dad was a bit overweight) with no bra. The outlines of the bra would have shown through the top. The dad was also wearing black capris fairly tight around the knees that went to just below the knee, with a pair of sneakers that could be men's or women's sneakers. The eyeglasses were the type that both men and women wear.

The dad had a kindly face and was enjoying dinner with wife and kids. If the dad and I had been in the bathroom together, I would have been fine with it, but this is because I'm part of this community plus I saw that the dad was with wife and kids. The presentation was decidedly not the way my SO dresses with makeup, forms, etc. This was visibly a slightly overweight male with gynecomastia wearing women's clothing and lots of jewelry which, combined with the longish hair added to the gender-bending effect. I observed people walking by and they all had a double-take, not because they necessarily thought the dad was a horrible or threatening person, but because we don't see a lot of gender-benders in our neck of the woods. I don't think that any GG in the bathroom would have thought "eek, rapist" - the dad was just so kindly looking, but I do see how (some? many? most?) GGs in the world we live in now would feel odd about having a visible male in a space that has traditionally been reserved for females. I think for most people it's not about quickly calculating what this person's gender ID might be based on their presentation and then deciding whether they do or do not belong there, but more about the gut reaction, "this is the ladies room", when it is obvious the other person there is a genetic male. No one can tell this person's internal gender identity.

So I think that if we can just dispense with the notion of "male" and "female" bathrooms and allow everyone to use all of them, plus have single-user bathrooms for the minority of people who object morally to sharing bathrooms, things would be a lot easier. Because although deciding that MtF TGs should use the women's bathrooms is all fine and well for people who visibly present as women, how does this affect people like the dad I saw at dinner tonight, whom I perceived to be a gender-bending male.

I think we should begin the long, slow road to having people in our culture STOP thinking of bathrooms as designated gender spaces. But, this is not going to happen overnight.