Frustrating conversation with my gay friend.

[Alice Torn]

I have known him 35 years. I alway suspected he was gay, as he had no attraction to GGs. I have told him about my dressing the last few years, as he came out to me as gay. He seems to think dressing as a woman, makes no sense, and is not a good thing, especially going out in public dressed. He asked what caused it. I told him i don't really know all the reason why. i asked him if he ever was attracted to a woman, and he shook his head "no". But, he does not think i should be wearing women's clothes. He lives in Seattle, where i used to live. He was in Chicago for a few days, and i met him there. It is a little frustrating .

[Judy-Somthing]

Wow I would think that most gay people would be more accepting to other peoples desires.

[Pat]

It's actually pretty common. Gay people are people. A cis-gendered gay person is just as mystified by transgendered people as anyone else. Gay people are more apt to be tolerant, but no more likely to be understanding.

[nvlady]

He asked you what caused you to be a CD.
Did you ask him what caused him to be gay?

[Alice Torn]

Nvlady, I did ask him, and he said he thinks a tramatic experience when very very young may have caused it, along with being born premature, and with a little cerebral palsy. I know that i first experimented with sister and mom's thing about age 13, but had abnormal desires than usual much earlier.

[Linda-x]

Welcome to a little LBG..T reality. I brought up the issue of being trans to a gay friend of mine, and his reponse was " I just don't get it". I've been going out for many years now, and some easier going gay guy's are pretty cool, but the harder edged one's, not so much. Try going to a lesbian bar sometime if you want some attitude!....LOL . Not always bad, but straight places have usually given me a better experience.

[tifftg]

Most gay men like men, we are a confusing oddity I guess.

[CarlaWestin]

Oh my! All of you are right on the money.

[Alice Torn]

He has been, and always will be a good friend, is abstinent sexually, now, in his 60's.

[mechamoose]

It has been occurring to the LGB community that the T thing has been kind of a forced situation, because it didn't fit anywhere else.

My local LGB groups are finally seeing that us T folks need our own support network. While it is nice to have their support, we certainly don't have their understanding.

NPR has recently had pieces on this issue. It is starting to get traction while mixed in with 'bathroom bills'.

Side note: These bathroom cops seem to focus on 'grown men in the bathroom with young girls'. Not an OUNCE of concern is spent on the femme dressed XY stepping into a male bathroom. I think we have plenty of examples of how that goes from our prison population :/

Being femme throws off all kinds of signals about breeding, regardless of capability. I have had gay friends be 'just guys' when in boy mode swap to 'HOT DAMN' in girl mode. I may be a truck, but some of us are cute and slinky and would be as much at risk as if an XX wandered in to a boys locker room.

'The Crying Game', anyone?

Kitty / Moose

[PattyT]

Lots of good comments here. I would have thought that a member ofnteh gay community, an outsider coomunity would be more accepting of a CD. It does show that the intolerance of the muggle community toward us is not just limited to them. Close mindedness is pretty common.
I am cannot understand the concept of being gay. It is totally alien to me. However, I do accept that some people are oriented this way and must be accepeted as such. There are CDs on this forum who are gay and belong here and should be as welcomed as much as a straight person.
I can see why Alice Torn is so frustrated.

[StefaniLara]

I've had two very liberal friends confide in me that the don't understand transgender people. They think it's weird, and one of them is openly bisexual. Understanding doesn't come in the form of sexual preferences, political spectrum (though the left seems to be more tolerant than the evangelical right), or anything else. We all have our own innate bigotry and prejudices, born out of what we have been taught, and what we have experienced. It's sad some members of a group that is pressing for acceptance is are themselves judging those who them deem less than them.

[I Am Paula]

You will find accepting men in the gay community, and totally non-accepting ones, just like anywhere else. Often a gay man will accept, but not understand, or frankly, care, about why. You are the exact opposite of his love interests. It is often assumed the all the letters in LBGT are naturally allies. We're just people, and find kinship when and where we please.

[Stephanie47]

I had a discussion with my wife recently concerning feelings of love. I told her I really do not know why men and women are homosexual. Or better, what may have caused this. I said I know the feelings of love that I have for her (my wife), my son and daughter and granddaughter are all different feelings. However, all equate to some sort of high affection for them. Although I cannot understand the affection a man can show for another man at the same level as a man and a woman, that does not mean it is not an expression of a high level of affection.

It really does not surprise me that your friend is judgmental or lacks understanding. People who do not understand something seem to reject it.

I have no idea why I am drawn to wearing women's clothing. I cannot explain it to others. I'm sure your friend cannot explain why he is drawn to loving other men rather than women.

[Kurtmath]

None of my gay male friends understand my interest in cross dressers. None of them.

[amy1989]

When I was about 17 or 18 I told my best friend about being a CD. It was part for me to open up to someone and part in the hope it would give him the confidence to come out as I knew he was gay. He gave me a look like I was some sort of alien and said that's weird. We didn't speak about it for 2 months until he asked if i still did that weird dressing thing. I said no I don't. 6 years later he came out as gay on his own and last year he brought up my CD'ing again but this time to say he doesn't get it bit if I'm happy that's cool. We've talked about it since and he doesn't judge.

I also know some gay men who's reaction would be terrible. There's so much more to us than just gay/straight or CD/Non-CD that you can't assume someone will react a certain way because of one thing in their life.

Alice, I hope things go well with your friend, and the frustration passes.

[Cheryl T]

Maybe you should have asked him why so many Gay men like to do Drag???

[Jenniferathome]

Come on, be objective, cross dressing makes no sense. It's hard for anyone to get their heads around it. You need to explain with analogies and patience.

[Tina_gm]

I find it kinda funny how there are many threads about why oh why do people think just because we wear women's clothing, and often times are more feminine than the average guy that we are GAY.... And then of course, where do WE often find the places to meet each other, in a GAY bar, where are there typically drag shows... , or some form of LGBT friendly establishment, typically in a friendly LGBT section of a city. And then WE are left scratching our heads as to why THEY don't understand us anymore than anyone else, and some have little tolerance for us either. No one really understands what they are not. I don't get rednecks at all. They certainly don't get us either, and typically are ready to assault us given an opportunity to do so.

I will be honest. I know a couple of very effeminate gay men. I wonder, why the heck do they want to be guys?? They act more like girls than guys. Their interests are more like girls than guys. they like guys, and by being a woman, the amount of guys who they would be able to meet would go up substantially. It would just seem like a win win win. But yet, they have no interest in being a woman, are glad they are not one. They do not feel any compulsion to wear women's clothing. And of course, they don't understand us, especially if we are not gay. Why put yourself through all of that, and have next to no women who will be attracted to you, or want anything to do with you. and you don't even want to actually change to be a woman??? does that make any sense? Why would they understand us, we really don't understand ourselves.

I have seen that gay people can be as judgmental as straight people. Overall, there probably is a bit more acceptance. They don't harass TG people in their establishments very much, usually make them feel welcome. They oftentimes do put on drag shows.... But do they really get us? not anymore than anyone else, and I am sure there are many who really don't care much for us as well.

[jenniferinsf]

alice

it is something that i have come to believe....some gay people do not like/understand/accept us...but for the life of me i can not understand it.

[Alice Torn]

Gendermutt, has it right. How can i explain my dressing to someone gay, or otherwise, when i cannot really understand or explain it to myself? Unless the person has an hour to just listen? I know part of it is being a virgin bachelor all my life, starved for female beauty, no mate. becoming my own lovely lady part time.

[Ozark]

My wife and I have several lesbian friends. I would have thought they would be accepting .... boy, was I wrong. The two teachers thought a man dressing woman's clothes was unnatural. My wife asked how can you say that, don't you realize people say that about you.

The two medical people were much more accepting, leading to a discussion how one of them likes to wear Hanes boxer briefs (ugh!). They know I sell lingerie on ebay and almost everytime we get together they ask how's business.

[lingerieLiz]

By the way rednecks are CDs too. You would be surprised. I've lived around rednecks and they didn't get me, but were friendly anyway. Went fishing with a couple wearing women's jeans and top. They asked if I wanted to and I said let me go change and they said why? Your fine.

[Tracii G]

GM the redneck comment is kind of uncalled for because I know plenty of them and they tend to accept me being gay and a CDer.
Their comments are more positive than most liberal people I know.
Back on point I have a few gay friends that just don't get me at all and think I'm a bit out there because I am TG.
One said if you like guys why dress as a woman? I explain my reasons for dressing is not to attract men and they can't seem to grasp the TG idea or CDing for that matter.
I have one friend that you would think is gay by the way he acts and he does drag every weekend and damn good at it but is a hetro male.

[Georgette_USA]

By the way rednecks are CDs too.


They are also MtF TS also. I always called my partner my sweet redneck, and her CB handle was Big Red.

[Tracii G]

Wow CB handles I have had my share of those over 40 years on the road.
I had a Galaxy 77V radio and it had a voice changer in it and if you got it adjusted just right when you keyed the mic it was the sexiest female voice when you spoke into it
My girl CB handle was "Little Beaver".
If any of you here that were truck drivers running I 75 thru Kentucky you probably heard me on there.LOL. Sooo much fun.

[ReineD]

It does make sense to me that non-CDs/TGs/TSs don't get it, whether they are same-sex or opposite-sex attracted.

Do you remember the long running and well-attended thread we had a few years ago asking our gay members what the men in their lives thought about the CDing? Most (not all) said their bfs didn't like it. Makes sense, since gay men are not attracted to women. I think that camp is OK, just not OK when it gets serious.

It's hard for people who are comfortable in their gender to understand people who wish to cross the gender boundaries.

[Tina_gm]

When I say I don't get rednecks, it simply means I don't get the lifestyle, their typical interests, hobbies etc etc etc. And yeah sure there are ALWAYS exceptions, but I m fairly confident that rednecks make up among the smallest percentage of gender or sexual diversity among people.

[Barbara Black]

For me personally, I figure it's an inward/outward thing. I feel the compulsion to dress as an internal drive, to outwardly express my inner feelings. It has nothing to do with my outward wants or desires, that is, my sexual preferences. Whether I am heterosexual or homosexual is irrelevant to crossdressing since it is a want for something outside of myself, an external desire. I could be wrong of course, but it explains why the two circles of sexual desire and crossdressing overlap but are not concentric.

[Kate Simmons]

Yeah it's strange to say the least Alice. Most gay guys don't "get" what we do but have no problem going ga ga over drag queens when they perform. Go figure. On the other hand a lot of gay gals think we are "neat". :battingeyelashes::)

[Jaylyn]

Ms Gendermutt watch out about us Red Necks, we are about as crazy as they get. I don't have a clue why you'd called us that. I am one but I love my CD time also. Have you ever let your hair down and danced the night away in a bar with your friends while know you have to be up in the morning at five to get to work. Well if you have you also might be a red neck. My definition of red necks is a guy or CD that can have fun relax and still when it's time to get serious will work hard all day in the hot sun. They work hard and play hard. I grew up working hard, playing hard, and also dressing hard.... As for gays accepting us just as red necks accepting us not every one has one label each and every person could be called some of each label from our thoughts about others, acting like others or dressing like others. Be who you are to the best of one ability. Have fun in life. It's so dang short, my 66 years have passed fast. I learned a long time ago I'm accepting of every person until that person and that person only proves me wrong that they are not an upright, good person. But I don't place labels on anyone until they force me to label them as crooks, imposters, bad people or swindlers. I worked in law enforcement, a business man (owned an oil company), farmed/ranched, and even was a teacher for a while. I don't place a title on anyone or judge them till I have met them and they show me what they are made of inside. You just have not met me or you'd understand my red neck CD side. I know a few lesbians, a couple gay friends and one bi couple, and they don't know it but they know a CD guy and that is me their red neck friend.

[Tracii G]

GM rednecks are some of the nicest people you will meet and as far as their lifestyle goes they are like most everybody else in the country.
They work,have a great sense of the family heritage,hunt,fish,go to college etc.
Some are reclusive and choose to live off the land or live off the grid so to speak.Nothing wrong with being self sufficient.
Not sure where you live GM or where you got your idea of what a redneck is or how you came to view them in that way.
Like I said in another thread I have been all over the Mountains of Eastern Ky enfemme and always get treated with tolerance.
Been to quite a few trans support groups in the area too.

[Pat]

When I say I don't get rednecks, it simply means...

Ms Gendermutt watch out about us Red Necks...

GM rednecks are some of the nicest people you will meet...

At this point it might be worth pointing out that "redneck" has no standard definition and has different connotations in different parts of the country. The Jeff Foxworthy kind of redneck is usually a great person. The Deliverance redneck less so. ;)

[Jaylyn]

At this point it might be worth pointing out that "redneck" has no standard definition.
Jennie are you saying that Redneck is kind of like the words "Cross dresser"? Neither has a standard definition and is construed to mean what ever one thinks about them.... Lol

[Pat]

Yup, that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm fond of saying you can't talk about ducks unless there's a word for ducks. It follows that all parties need to agree on what ducks are or else miscommunication occurs. ;)

[Teresa]

Jaylyn,
We don't have a problem with rednecks because it's not often used to describe someone in the UK.

Alice going back to your original question, many of us claim to be wired differently at birth, new thinking is definitely backing it up, it's certainly how I always felt. I guess when the wiring doesn't go as planned various permutations are bound to happen , having natural affections for another man, I can't understand that anymore your friend can understand a Cder.
Your friend happens to be a person who doesn't get it. My painting tutor admitted to me after I came out him that he was bisexual, he is intrigued by my CDing and loves to see my pictures, we had to laugh when he said you've got some balls to go out like that !

The scenario applies to GGs just as much, some of us have very understanding partners and some don't , but you can't put that down to being wired differently , upbringing and social pressures play a bigger part in those circumstances.

[Pat]

Alice going back to your original question, many of us claim to be wired differently at birth, new thinking is definitely backing it up, it's certainly how I always felt.

And that may be one cause of the crossdressing behavior. I believe it is in my case too. However, it's important to stay open to the idea that there might not be a single reason for it -- it may come about for different reasons in different individuals. People who come to crossdressing late in life might have just taken a long time to respond to their wired-in difference, or they may have a completely different mechanism. Until the research is done, we have to stay flexible. ;)

But we also have to understand that we don't understand so people around us who don't have this gift also will not understand. And some, not willing to admit they don't understand something, try to fill in the blanks by assigning motives to us and then judge us on those assigned motives that they've made up! And since they've "answered" the question in their own minds, they don't listen to (or believe) testimony from the TG/crossdresser community.

The LGB community has successfully gotten the narrative changed so they don't require the general public to understand, they have pointed out common, shared values and now people are starting to accept them even if they don't understand. The T community needs to get to that same place -- don't worry about why we do what we do, just accept that we have a right to exist, be in public, eat in restaurants, shop in stores and pee (in safety) when we have to. ;)

[CarolynO]

Most gay guys don't "get" what we do but have no problem going ga ga over drag queens when they perform.

Kate,that's entirely true that most gays don't understand us,the reason they "dig" drag queens and they're acts is that they mock/ridicule women and femininity while we admire and emulate women and that's what gays don't get.

[Tina_gm]

Just for the record, when I say redneck.... Think duck dynasty.... That is what I am referring to as "redneck" not every single guy (or girl) who is good with DIY, handy, likes the outdoors or drives a pick up truck. Just type in redneck on facebook and see what pages come up. I am sure the dozens and dozens who usually have a confederate flag as their profile pic are all into being accepting.... :bonk:

[Jenniferathome]

None of my gay male friends understand my interest in cross dressers. None of them.

Kurt, I hope you are still watching this thread because this comment is super interesting to me. Firstly, as a straight man, I get it! Sure seems logical that a gay man would want a man, not one dressed like a woman. But there you go.

Do you think they don't get it because of my statement above or is it something else? For example, a cross dresser does not help the gay cause ? Perhaps they just think cross dressing is weird? (It is, by the way.)

I'm curious...

Thanks,

[Georgette_USA]

the reason they "dig" drag queens and they're acts is that they mock/ridicule women and femininity


Not all Gay or Lesbian "dig" Drag. I would not tell any of my Drag friends that they mock/ridicule women. That is not what they do. They impersonate women and celebrities. It is more of a caricature, exaggerate and OTT.

I have a CD friend that also does amateur Drag. She was just in a local contest for Drag of the year and lost, she was heartbroken and tearful, I gave her a big hug and told her I loved her for trying. They put a lot of time energy money, just for the fun and hopefully appreciation.

Do you personally know any Drag, and see all what they do. Yet when you CD you may admire, but some don't emulate regular women. Some want to keep the older views of women.

It never ceases to amaze me, how so many TG sites want to belittle others and yet wonder why "normal" society wonders or understands us.

[sherri]

This is a good thread. I was so naïve when I started going to gay clubs as a gurl, actually shocked to learn gays don't particularly care for CDers, at least in any romantic sense, and they're not really comfortable being associated with us in public (outside of clubs etc). But obviously they love drag queen entertainers (which is NOT about ridicule!), so it took me a long while to puzzle out the contradiction. Gays look at DQs like they do theater, an adoption of a role for entertainment's sake, and an expression as well as acknowledgement that for some there is a certain component of swishiness in being gay. But for them the it's just an act that goes away when the costume comes off. What throws them about us is it's not an act, we're girls at heart. Not only do we identify with girls, we identify as girls. We love everything about being fem, and that throws them for a loop. They just don't/can't get it, and they most definitely are not attracted to us in any physical way or gender identification way. On top of that, tell them you're not gay, you're bi and watch their eyes cross. Interestingly, I've noticed at the lgbt club where I hang out that the CDer most warmly and universally accepted and embraced by gays makes it very clear to everyone that she is hetero, not physically or romantically interested in guys at all. For some reason, that seems to depressurize the situation. Go figure. Also interesting to me is that lesbians, conversely, seem to have no problem whatsoever in accepting and being attracted to butch women, most of whom are crossdressers every bit as much as MTFs. And even though lesbians use phallic toys in their lovemaking, they have no interest in MTFs as lovers. Geez, a gurl just can't catch a break. ;-P

[Alice Torn]

I guess i am part redneck, because i grew up in the country, my dad trained horses on the side, I got to ride them sometimes, clean stalls, help farmers bale hay, then spent 29 years in the Seattle area! Culture shock! So, i know both country redneck life, and big city life. I own a 1983 Ford F 150 pickup, and a !976 Dodge Aspen, and i went fishing for an hour or so today, and caught a 15 inch smallmouth bass. But, also rode my bicycle. have a sore back, ankle and elbow from lifting my 95 yo difficult father, and lifting other stuff. Not up to dressing lately. maybe in a week or so. I have never been to a gay bar. I am not really a bar person. There is only one gay bar in this region, and in a dangerous area. I hope to try it once, but not very relaxed in a loud bar. Overly loud modern music I do not like. I worked for some lesbians years ago, before i was dressing. I sent my gay friend a video on Youtube, about feminism, and made the mistake of using my Alice account, with the avatar of Alice! I sent him another video, from my male Youtube account, and apoplogized to him, for using my Alice account earlier. He does not want to see me dressed as a woman. He is 2000 miles away. I must be careful not to accidentally send images of Alice.

[CarolynO]

But obviously they love drag queen entertainers (which is NOT about ridicule!), so it took me a long while to puzzle out the contradiction. Gays look at DQs like they do theater, an adoption of a role for entertainment's sake, and an expression as well as acknowledgement that for some there is a certain component of swishiness in being gay. ;-P

Sherri and Georgette,i write with limited knowledge of DQ performance.Never attended any DQ shows.You may be right,which leads to my question...If that's the case,what is it that distinguishes Drag Queens from Female Impersonators?

[Kurtmath]

Kurt, I hope you are still watching this thread because this comment is super interesting to me. Firstly, as a straight man, I get it! Sure seems logical that a gay man would want a man, not one dressed like a woman. But there you go.

Do you think they don't get it because of my statement above or is it something else? For example, a cross dresser does not help the gay cause ? Perhaps they just think cross dressing is weird? (It is, by the way.)

I'm curious...

Thanks,

I think you have it nailed in your first statement. My gay male friends think if you are attracted to men have them dress like men. For me, it's the blend of a genetic man in female clothes. Confident and happy. I still like to date men. But I also have an interest in cross dressers.

Also I don't think my gay male friends think cross dressers are bad people or not normal. They just don't understand my personal attraction. I think my friends are live and let live with others. Just not with me. Lol. And it because they perhaps need to look outside their own view of normal in regards to what they think is right for me.

I don't think it about the gay cause.

[Georgette_USA]

You may be right,which leads to my question...If that's the case,what is it that distinguishes Drag Queens from Female Impersonators?


Drag shows have become very mainstream. See lots of bride parties or birthdays some times. Took my sister and her husband to one last year. She thought it was quite entertaining.

Most people think they are basically the same. The following are generalizations.

Drag performers do not try to exactly present as female, but often acts with exaggerated femininity, to create a distinctive feminine persona of his or her own.

Female impersonators seek to emulate a specific female star or celebrity.

[I Am Paula]

In Toronto, what was once a latino gay bar has become the hotspot for bridal showers, and birthday parties. Most of the drag performers prefer impersonation over the 'over the top' queens of yesteryear. There are still gay men there, but they have almost become part of the spectacle.

Back to the OT- Deer, and wolves are both mammals. Doesn't mean they are automatically allies.