Defining Gender Fluid

[Nadine Spirit]

The phrase "gender fluid" appears to be the phrase du jour to describe those of us who exist somewhere between the gender binaries. While searching for an official crossdressers.com definition for this phrase, alas it was not included in Reine's awesome reference list. Thus I went to Google. Here is what Google returned:

Gender fluid is a gender identity which refers to a gender which varies over time. A gender fluid person may at any time identify as male, female, neutrois, or any other non-binary identity, or some combination of identities. Their gender can also vary at random or vary in response to different circumstances.

Thus in much the same way that many of you dispute being transgender, because there is nothing trans about your gender, I dispute being referenced as gender fluid, as there is nothing about my gender identity that is fluid. How I internally identify is not fluid in anyway, it in fact is quite static. How I choose to present on any given day, that changes for sure.

Before you tell me so.... yes I know humans should not be labeled, only soup cans...... blah blah blah. I know. But I in fact do not dislike labels, when they are self applied. What I prefer are clear definitions. Unfortunately, clear definitions are often difficult in an ever changing language. And especially when everyone technically considered to be part of the group can't even agree on the definitions.

I am curious, is there an "official" definition for gender fluid? And if not how exactly would you define the phrase gender fluid?

[Kate Simmons]

Nothing official that I know of Nadine. Just that Native Americans consider some to have the spirt of male and female and call them two spirited rather than the older term Berdaches which is considered obsolete these days. :)

[Jaylyn]

Good question and the only thing I can say is a fluid tends to seek it own level so maybe it just sometimes we move our gender in the direction that the fluid is seeking that day.... Who knows?

[Aligirl]

The dictionary definition of fluid is to describe something that can change easily or that changes often. For me gender fluid means to flow easily between feeling male to female and back again. This can happen multiple times a week or not at all. Trying to find the balance can be hard to do.

[flatlander_48]

N S:

I agree that fluid means just that. I do not believe that my perspective on gender changes; only the presentation does. In theory then, if there is gender fluid, there should also be gender static.

Works for me...

DeeAnn

[Stevann]

While talking to a therapist about my crossdressing, I was told that I was "gender fluid". I never thought that term applied to me. But I'm now more open to accepting it.

[Pat]

Thus in much the same way that many of you dispute being transgender, because there is nothing trans about your gender, I dispute being referenced as gender fluid, as there is nothing about my gender identity that is fluid

OK. Then you're not gender fluid. What's the problem? Are you saying if you're not gender fluid nobody else can be? Are you saying you need a name for what you are? Pick one. Make one up. Just be sure it's an adjective and not a noun -- because (as I say too much) these things should describe you, not define you. You should never put yourself in the position of saying "I have to do <X> because I'm <Y>."

Perhaps you'd prefer "gender presentation fluid?" Your inner self is constant, but your external presentation can change according to your feelings?

[flatlander_48]

Perhaps you'd prefer "gender presentation fluid?" Your inner self is constant, but your external presentation can change according to your feelings?

Personally, that doesn't make sense. Gender is all about the thought process and very little to do with the packaging. Said differently, the packaging reflects the thought process.

DeeAnn

[Nadine Spirit]

What's the problem? Are you saying if you're not gender fluid nobody else can be? Are you saying you need a name for what you are? Pick one.

Hmmm..... I thought I stated the problem, maybe I should try again - I am curious, is there an "official" definition for gender fluid? And if not how exactly would you define the phrase gender fluid? I kind of think it is more of a question than a problem, but if you'd like to think of it as a problem, that's cool.

Uhhhh...... I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything about how anybody else couldn't consider themselves gender fluid. Am I wrong about that?

Hmmmm..... sure, I wouldn't mind a name for what I am, but I really think transgender covers it quite nicely, so don't I already have one? I'm quite sure though that I don't need you to apply one to me, thanks though for the attempt.

Maybe I'll take another stab at clarity - many people here use the phrase "gender fluid" but it is being used differently by different people, and being as I clearly don't personally identify as gender fluid, maybe some of you who do, could enlighten us with your thoughts about appropriate definitions of it.

[AnnieMac]

Oh, I thought it meant I sit when I use the bathroom

[trisha kobichenko]

Hmm,
I do feel that 'gender fluid' describes me, because there are aspects of my gender identity that fluctuate from male to female and back. I envy you that you don't seem to experience this gender confusion. But, just because you don't, doesn't make the the 'phrase du jour' invalid for all. My feeling is that clear specific definitions of where each of us identifies on the gender scale (and add 'over time') would rival the bulk of the Encyclopedia Brittanica.
Trish

[pamela7]

The thing about definitions is that the only "definitive" meaning goes to the root of the etymology, while the contextual meaning we give a word comes from how we first come across it, and that is different for all of us. This is true for every word we use, and particularly true when for example we try to pretend something like English and American are the same language.

What we can do is to take the generally inferred meaning of genderfluid meaning the identified gender of the self changes over time, not necessarily binary but to any or all forms. For myself, while I'm comfortable now as "trans in progress" sometimes I wonder if intersex would be a more accurate label. However, here's the thing; as long as we're happy we don't even think about gender, right? So does it make it fluid because of wondering, or does fluid cause the wondering?

[ReineD]

The thing about definitions is that the only "definitive" meaning ...

If you're meaning the reference list that Nadine refers to, I wrote that a long time ago when I thought the WPATH were the experts on this. I still consider them experts, although I acknowledge that people will disagree with their definitions.


That said, Nadine there's no official definition of gender fluid that i know, other than the dictionary definitions of gender and fluid. I use it as a catch-all short-cut to describe people who go back and forth and who are not:

MALE with no desire to cross gender boundaries:
1) born male, identify fully as male, and have no desire to present or otherwise be construed as having a female sex or gender. Or,
2) born female, identify fully as male, and have no desire to present or otherwise be construed as having a female sex or gender.

FEMALE with no desire to cross gender boundaries:
3) born female, identify fully as female, and have no desire to present or otherwise be construed as having a male sex or gender. Or,
4) born male, identify fully as female, and have no desire to present or otherwise be construed as having a male sex or gender.


Of course there are intersex individuals (http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions), but we can leave this for another discussion.

What remains is how someone who does not think of themselves as either 1, 2, 3, or 4 above might identify themselves if they wish to do so.

If they don't think of themselves as being either 1 & 2 male, or 3 & 4 female, but they acknowledge they flow back and forth, even if it is only presentation and not gender identity, then fluid is a fairly clear way to describe this. I think this might apply to most people posting in the MtF CD section.

If they don't think of themselves as being either 1 & 2 male, or 3 & 4 female, but instead feel they are all-the-time both or a separate gender of its own, then they are not fluid, they are either Both, or Third (and I'll admire anyone who comes up with a better word than "third").

So we could say there are five states: male, female, fluid, both, or third.

Edit - And for those of you who enjoy words,
A system with:
Male and Female (only) = gender binary.
Male, Female, and Other = gender ternary, with the understanding that Other is comprised of: Fluid, Both, and Third.

[Jazzy Jaz]

Fixed/static bigender or dual gender can describe those who are not exclusively male or exclusively female and are also not gender fluid as their "internal gender" does not fluctuate. I think the confusion comes from the fact that some folks on this forum ARE gender fluid and use that term to describe themselves, as their internal gender does fluctuate, but at the same time there are others who use the term gender fluid to describe anyone who is not exclusively male or female regardless of whether or not their genders fluctuate. I personally don't identify as gender fluid as my gender identity is not fluid, though I respect those who do along with everyone else. When others refer to me as gender fluid I feel misunderstood not only by that person but also potentially by other readers. I know that its not intentional and the terms mean different things to different people, this is just how I understand and use these terms. It makes sense to me anyways.

[mykell]

guilty as charged, i have used the term lately, ive stated in other threads that the use and reason for acquiring forms, my wig, and full makeup was indeed to blend in enough to venture out, not as bold as a person like prince or steven tyler to do the androgynous look......i dont change mentally when i dress i just am me, comfortable being, so back to the acquisitions....after getting comfortable applying makeup, a good quality wig and the use of forms i feel equally comfortable with the presentation....but more confident with my ability to be in "the wild", these things are now integral of how i present....i attend support groups in many different looks, male, female but never a mix.

as far as defining "gender fluid" when looking for one it itself is fluid and fluctuates but use the term because i find it easier to explain myself to the group this way but have recently just started adding that im "fluid" when i introducing myself, adding that you never know what your gonna get, (FG one of my favorite movies).

for Me after learning and embracing the LGBT and going round and round on the "spectrum" i dont fear the terms as some seam to and im again guilty of strongly pushing said reference and was fairly sarcastic about this in some past threads but dont mind being included in LGBT or being referred to as transgender. i feel labels help us daily, when i attend my meetings and i want to sit i need to find a "chair" not one of those sitting thingys.

so like stated i know of no official definition of "gender fluid" like i can use with "transgender" but it seems to help when sitting with parents and friends in my support group who are sitting with theyre young children who are also transitioning while i sit with them in different states of dress while attending and not transitioning.

this is what i found on a search:

gender.wikia.com/wiki/Gender_Fluid


Gender fluid is a gender identity which refers to a gender which varies over time. A gender fluid person may at any time identify as male, female, neutrois, or any other non-binary identity, or some combination of identities. Their gender can also vary at random or vary in response to different circumstances.

ruby rose:
http://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a28865/ruby-rose-oitnb/

[raeleen]

I was just talking to my therapist about this, and how so many of the terms we use feel problematic. There's a lot of baggage and negative connotations with certain language, and how do I want to think of myself and how I identify. And do I really even NEED to identify in any specific way?

I think gender fluid is really helpful for those who feel constrained by the gender binary. as a society we seem uncomfortable whenever anyone does not conform to the binary, and even those of us who are trans often seem to feel a need to present very much as one gender or another and look a bit askew at folks who don't go fully one way or another (i.e., beards with dresses?). Fluid feels like it allows space to move comfortably between genders (whether identity or presentation) and so I've started taking a liking to that term. I think folks should be able to present and identify in whatever way feels most authentic to them, and we shouldn't judge them or feel like we have to put them in a box.

So all that being said, I think the terms we use around trans and gender identity will continue to evolve and grow as society continues to shift in terms of acceptance and understanding. Maybe we'll find terms that fit us, or maybe we'll have to wait to see what else emerges.

[ClosetED]

I think there is agreement about 'fluid' - changeable.
But what do we mean by gender?
I see several definitions from various sources.
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).

Urban dictionary: gender. A reflection of one's self-image as relating to sexual nature. There are, in general, three genders:

So is 'gender' how society sees you or how you self-identify? BIG difference.
One who identifies themselves internally as male at times and as female at other times is one situation .
One who thinks they are male internally, but likes to vary how they present to society, to me, is a typical crossdresser. So using that as my definition of gender, I would be gender fluid if I presented to society at large as Ellen. As I only do that here, I am not sure I fully qualify (but I would do it if society was as accepting as the nice comments I get here :) )
Hugs, Ellen

[flatlander_48]

C:

As related to what you and others have said, I have trouble linking gender and presentation in this context. For a given gender perspective, it is possible to present in any number of ways. The presentation may be consistent, not consistent or semi-consistent, with that gender perspective.

DeeAnn

[docrobbysherry]

Maybe it's more a state of mind? Where u imagine u "feel female" when u see your fem self in the mirror?

And, "feel male" when dressed in drab?

Personally, I have no clue what feeling male or female is like. I simply know that I feel like ME! No matter how I'm dressed!:straightface:

[IamWren]

As I've read this thread, the question of ‘what IS gender’ keeps coming to the forefront for me.

Like Ellen asked above, ‘is it how I perceive myself or is it how society perceives me.” I don’t want to cram my comment with a lot of “specific minutia and what-if’s” but it is something that is a curiosity to me and how it applies to me.

It’s threads like this that really make me think about myself and why I feel compelled to try and present as a woman sometimes.

On another note…
The discussion of the concept of being fluid reminds me of a scene from the Will Smith/Kevin James movie, “Hitch” where one of his clients says, “These shoes don’t really feel like ‘me’”
Hitch responds by holding his shoulders, looking him in the eye and saying, “’You’ is a very fluid concept right now.”

[mechamoose]

I'm a girl in a mansuit.

Cripes these pants fit like shit.

I'm a boy in a girlsuit

I don't have tits, but I feel like I should.

Either/or either or. Or either

I assume the hijab makes presentation easier.
.

[Liz57]

I was looking up definitions yesterday and when I searched it did refer me to a link to Urban dictionary. They had a definition but I don't know if you'd consider it valid.

Liz:)

[Jenniferathome]

...I dispute being referenced as gender fluid, as there is nothing about my gender identity that is fluid. How I internally identify is not fluid in anyway, it in fact is quite static. How I choose to present on any given day, that changes for sure. ...

Nadine, I think the word "fluid" is the problem here. Fluid means "changing" in most circumstances. You are a stable gender non-conformist whose outside presentation varies from ultra feminine to masculine. This means you are not gender fluid (a changing gender). Your is purely a visual changing, not changing of the mind.

How about: Gender Presentation Fluid?

[Ressie]

I don't know. There are too many gender and sexual orientation phrases being coined lately. It just adds more confusion IMO. Who is inventing these phrases anyway? I liked it better when I was just a transvestite or cross-dresser. I understand that gender isn't binary, but fluid sounds like matter in it's liquid form.

fluid |ˈflo͞oid| nouna substance that has no fixed shape and yields easily to external pressure; a gas or (esp.) a liquid:

[Dana44]

For me who says they are Gender Fluid. I'm an androgynous male and that relates to gender Fluid and is easier to explain to someone who does not know about androgynous and other forms of cross sex types. According to your google definition. It is there plus a lot of other cross-sex or no sex or what ever other types are out there. But take it as you will. The definition has the twin spirits in it and we who go between male/female are gender fluid also.

[Zooey]

Can anybody here who identifies as gender fluid try to articulate what it feels like WITHOUT referring to conventional and/or visible gender EXPRESSION (e.g. clothes, mannerisms, etc.)?

I feel like I have struggled to understand this for a while, and if anybody here can do that I would very much enjoy reading it.

[ReineD]

What a great question. I'm looking forward to reading the answers too.

[IamWren]

I think I was trying to ask what Zooey was in a roundabout way.
Please do. I have been struggling with this as well. What does it "feel" like to be female?
I mean, heck with all the definitions and psychoanalysis and discussion I'm not sure I can describe what it feels like to be male. I don't know that I can now where a year ago I would have been quite pompous and arrogant about defining maleness and femaleness.

Oh and Kitty... Yes my hijab DOES make presentation easier, especially since all I have is a 20 dollar halloween wig. :D

[Tina_gm]

Nadine, I would think that which you put in bold print did a fairly sufficient job of defining it. I don't know if I ever quite get fully into defining as gender fluid, but more or less what the bold says, I can identify with. I prefer dual gender myself, as I don't always feel fluid about the gender variance I have, but sometimes I do feel fluid with it as well. But I guess with "fluid" it can ebb and flow in different directions?

We all have our own versions of what we think or feel is TG, CD, TS, etc etc. Heck, I say feminine as a description of myself and I get people that will think otherwise, or say feminine is this or that, or not this or that.... It is what it is to me. I too do not have any problem with labels, as they are or at least can be used effectively for communication and understanding. If I say to anyone random person I am gender variant they won't know what that means and what it pertains to me.... but if I say I am transgender, or a cross dresser, they get a better idea of who I am.

[mykell]

...................................
Gender fluid is a gender identity which refers to a gender which varies over time. A gender fluid person may at any time identify as male, female, neutrois, or any other non-binary identity, or some combination of identities. Their gender can also vary at random or vary in response to different circumstances.
.................................
given my description below my presentation has matured, my identity is now more defined and if i lived my authentic life my gender would of varied more, ill presume it would have been more feminine, but even now my responses to situations can vary, some with a more female tone and others more of a male tone, the combination works for me in this definition.....

Can anybody here who identifies as gender fluid try to articulate what it feels like WITHOUT referring to conventional and/or visible gender EXPRESSION (e.g. clothes, mannerisms, etc.)?

I feel like I have struggled to understand this for a while, and if anybody here can do that I would very much enjoy reading it.


OK, i hope feelings are not part of the ect.

when i dress there is no dire need or turmoil to overcome, just something i could do that day or need to do to go to one of my support functions, i dont feel i am a women when i do this but feel natural when doing it. when the time comes to retire the presentation again no anxieties, some regrets as im high maintenance and would enjoy more time sometimes.

im one who would be more comfortable with the group of ladies when at social gatherings and engage in those conversations with more ease than when with a group of my peers talking about manly man topics, for the most part.....dont do a lot of social at this age but for an example when at court recently we were all rushed into the courtroom and given instructions, then left to wait for the judge to enter..... i engaged my lawyer, female, into discussion, the steno girl and another two female lawyers were now chatting it up waiting for the judge, just one of the girls....it felt natural, all the men in the room sat stoic like including the male lawyers, no sports talk or anything else.
even when a small child you would find me sitting with the ladies when at a social event, not engaging in the actual conversation back then but quite content to listen.

while here ive learned things about myself and folks here, for me when i poke down into the trans section when i see the familiar avatar that used to be in the CD forum, i read some of the other comments and posts and although i can catch some that i can relate to i never feel comfortable enough to respond to any, even a congratulatory you go girl somehow does not feel right to be coming from me, the only thing that i have come close to of in my later years with dysphoria would be my displeasure having body hair and i had a few uncomfortable moments while out in the wild. nothing comes close to the angst and fears and turmoil & crises i read of when in that forum.

i really dont engage in the panty threads, to me they are just underwear, seldom share photos anymore and will stick up for us when engaged in social settings. ive past my two year time-frame to transition and dont feel the need to, but i will add that if i had found this place at a much younger age i could see myself being like one of the "ruby rose" or other gender bending folks on the scene today.

i love to shop, especially for clothes, but my attention will always be drawn to the soft side of the stores, always had loved a well made up womens makeup and had interest even from that young age but never used any till well into my years, why would i have a connection like that.

when in my youth i would consistently play with the girls in the neighborhood, and not understand the ribbing from the boys, i played little league and cub scouts, bowling clubs and such, but would play with dolls or play "house" with the girls but in a male role.

i have enjoyed cars and boats, fishing, camping, can maintain my property, enjoy gardening, most of my employment was one that would be not be deemed more male or female dominated, im compassionate and empathetic, tend to overthink things but also stubborn and opinionated.

their is no attemp to be more masculine and no other attempt to be more feminine or act more feminine, the only thing i try to physically change is my voice, i think it will be huge to my blending when out in the wild but have found it not entirely necessary as im out there now. wig, forms, and makeup are to cover my obvious male markers and keep me in the comfort zone and dont feel foreign to me.....if that makes sense.

so i used the term fluid as its the one that fit best, there is no female me and no male me, their is only me, as i tried to convey i feel i have dual traits but only male markers, the clothing that i am more attracted to wearing is that of the female side of the stores and the ruby red reference would of filled that void for me when in my youth, being that it took me a lifetime to come to terms with this the best i can try now is to blend in. my sexual preference does not change, just a preference for sex.


i dont mind the labels and find some useful, i dont mind being part of the LGBT group and understand if they dont understand me and bothered by some who wont accept it.

so you get it now....me either....

[Zooey]

so you get it now....me either....

Thank you for writing that! I still don't get it, but I appreciate it.

I guess I still don't see the bit where your actual gender identity is fluid. I see a man who's very comfortable with/enjoys a very fluid and non-conforming gender expression.

This is not specific to you, btw - please don't think I'm picking on you. This is something I struggle to understand in general, maybe because I'm expecting something to exist that doesn't, or maybe I'm projecting.

[Dana44]

Zooey, Okay for me its a full switch to female in feelings and mannerisms etc. I struggled for years trying to understand it myself. But when I am male I am male. But when I switch, I am feminine and feel like a woman. I can understand why you can't understand it. We do have gender dysphoria also. However, we know we are male and will always switch back to that and I enjoy both parts of me. I probably could write a novel on it. But in reality. It is what it is. Sometimes the switch is long and it kinda, fun as I had to put male clothes on and finally switch back after wearing male clothes for two weeks. But I try to balance it but sometimes It can't be balanced male or female.
The Psychology of it is that it is the same knowledge in either mode, but I think my brain switches from right side to left and back and may do it with biorhythms it seems to me. But it is the same spirit and operates in two modes. When I was born, I had synthetic estrogen washed over my body in the womb.
We are DES kids and everybody had different results. But in reality a switch is toggled that says boy or girl. I toggled boy and well have almost all female hormones and fair testosterone so it was really strange growing up with that switch toggling from as long as I can remember. So if most of my hormones are female you would understand how that feels.
But strangely I grew up as a man and was pretty successful. This means I was a successful DES male in life. That was a full seventeen percent of us. But in my later life I did turn out somewhat strange especially when I figured out what I was. I hope this explains it a bit more.
I can say that I felt far different than men and beat to my own drum my whole life trying to figure myself out.

[IamWren]

I guess I still don't see the bit where your actual gender identity is fluid. I see a man who's very comfortable with/enjoys a very fluid and non-conforming gender expression.
Alright THIS is getting me very close to an ah-ha moment for me. Thanks Zooey. I'm going to ponder your statement for a bit because it sticks to me.

I like being a guy. I feel male, even when dressed but I for whatever reason I do enjoy presenting as a female sometimes. I sometimes wish I was an actor or drag queen so there would actually be a valid reason instead of just being that I like it.

[mykell]

Thank you for writing that! I still don't get it, but I appreciate it.

I guess I still don't see the bit where your actual gender identity is fluid. I see a man who's very comfortable with/enjoys a very fluid and non-conforming gender expression.

This is not specific to you, btw - please don't think I'm picking on you. This is something I struggle to understand in general, maybe because I'm expecting something to exist that doesn't, or maybe I'm projecting.

i think everyone is fixated on the fluid word when many are used, queer, variant, neutral, agender, flux, neutrios......

i dont think you are picking on anyone, it fits the OPs original aspect and only asked for more specific details and you seem sincere. ill take another stab at it.

when i was in the courtroom talking with the ladies i felt i identified and engaged them as a women and to be honest before the discussion began i was critiquing they're outfits, i believe that day i went on home and repaired a busted fence panel with my son.

one time after a support meeting i was talking with the lead facilitator, the discussion turned to makeup and then more specifically mascara, in that moment she was talking to me as a peer, just one of the ladies in the group......another time at my meet-up group the women who helped me set things up to get my group started attended the first meeting, when it was over i thanked her for all she did and we chatted when out of the blue she told me you have a very pretty face.....she is a lesbian so i felt that it had a little more meaning than had a GG said that, it made me feel more genuine......when i was with my the owner of the wig salon i use i had asked about a makeover but it was a little out of budget but she let me come by to do mine with stuff i have already, she set me up and lent a hand during application, right in the front of the shop, just like one of the girls, she then said i could finish dressing in her shop which she previously stated she does not allow, when i came out she talked and she told me she didn't think i was going to pull it off, but when i came out she said i looked so natural.....now i like looking nice, like say ruby red, but reality is you don't go around looking like that all the time and when youth is on your side you'd tend to do it more often i assume, when yourself or ruby relax you would wear jeans and a tee-shirt and sneakers perhaps.

now during all these different situations i may not have dressed the role but my mind identified to the situation, it is not a measured thing or one that is controlled but only presents by the activity occurring at any given moment during my day to day, what man has these kinds of discussions or thoughts with or about women, so yes i am comfortable with my expression but in my mind im am always identifying as both however dressed and as the situation arises, my equivalent to your jeans tee-shirt and sneaks are my male clothes without all the trimmings.....its not a defined time that i identify one way or the other and it always fluctuates and is not a measured trait.

maybe this silly analogy can help, i look at a beautifully dressed girl : wow shes hot.....love those shoes... i love women with long hair.....and those are really cute bangles....her makeup is flawless.....such a perfect figure.....wonder where she got that dress.....im gonna club her....grab her by the hair and drag her back to my cave.

caveman vs fashionista.........dual identity.......oh-oh i just used stereotypes :devil:

[Pat]

I sometimes wish I was an actor or drag queen so there would actually be a valid reason instead of just being that I like it.

That's kind of sad. :( There's never a better reason for doing something than that you like to do it. It's why writers write; it's why singers sing; it's why poets po. (Or do policemen po? I'm not sure.) The idea that we need a justification that puts our happiness behind a facade of duty is one of those weird cultural things. "I'm not wearing this wig and makeup because I like it, ma'am, I'm wearing it because Gotham needs me to wear it..."

[IamWren]

I didn't think about it like that when I wrote that Jennie but you're right *sigh* it is kinda sad. :(

[flatlander_48]

I can say that I felt far different than men and beat to my own drum my whole life trying to figure myself out.

In reading your account, one things stands out for me. What has happened to you, and the subsequent feelings and actions, originated with being exposed to a particular drug. There is a known link between cause and effect. The question would be is there a naturally occurring situation that would produce the same result? Not expecting you to answer, it would seem that this is the next question.

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

caveman vs fashionista.........dual identity.......oh-oh i just used stereotypes

Let me try a different line of questioning... Sometimes, your gender identity is "man". Sometimes, it's "woman". Sometimes, maybe it's "both or something else".

Can you explain what being a woman means to you without mentioning fashion, clothes, makeup, or shoes? Basically, without mentioning objects that happen to be perceived as feminine, or discussions/experiences related to those objects?

Critiquing other people's appearances doesn't make you a woman, it makes you a human with a slight judgmental streak (aka most of us). Talking about makeup doesn't make you a woman and neither does liking/wearing it - it makes you somebody who's knowledgeable about or interested in makeup.


So if most of my hormones are female you would understand how that feels.

Can you elaborate on what this means for you in practice? Does this mean that you have female normative levels (or nearly so) of e.g. estrogens and progestins? Do you then have female secondary sex characteristics?

[mykell]

Let me try a different line of questioning... Sometimes, your gender identity is "man". Sometimes, it's "woman". Sometimes, maybe it's "both or something else".

Can you explain what being a woman means to you without mentioning fashion, clothes, makeup, or shoes? Basically, without mentioning objects that happen to be perceived as feminine, or discussions/experiences related to those objects?

Critiquing other people's appearances doesn't make you a woman, it makes you a human with a slight judgmental streak (aka most of us). Talking about makeup doesn't make you a woman and neither does liking/wearing it - it makes you somebody who's knowledgeable about or interested in makeup.

ok your right in my second attempt i did revert to talking about things with the caveman vs fasionista analogy....but its not that i feel more manly at any time or female either and presentation-clothes, forms, wig has nothing to do with how i feel i fit in with either situation at any given time, i am always just me....if i was a women id guess i would be a tomboy but i would clean up as a women. im really trying to get you to understand but i cant comprehend it for you....and now that you have me thinking i dont think i could describe what it is to be a man all the things i come up with a female could be also. im really trying to bear my soul to you but im struggling to put it to words.

[Dana44]

Zooey, wow I have explained some of that in other threads. But here it is. My progesterone is above eighty percent. Haven't had my estrogen done lately. However I do have nice boobs and they are more than a handful. But I wear B sized bra's and do fit in a c size that I have. So, I would say that I do have a significant amount. I do have curves above the hips as some women have, but I am still Male, but looking more fem as I get older. I would say that we do fill the tween that Robin has labeled. I do try to stay in shape and well, my toes are always painted and I wonder what my trainers really think. Both Mikell and I have been trying to explain it to you and it is hard to put into words.
I would like to ask you a question. Since I don't know what one gender is, what is it like being female to you?

[Zooey]

i did revert to talking about things with the caveman vs fasionista analogy...

See, it wasn't just the analogy at the end though. Those things were the dominant force throughout your response. I'm not blaming you - expression is easier to talk about, and a convenient crutch.


im really trying to get you to understand but i cant comprehend it for you....and now that you have me thinking i dont think i could describe what it is to be a man all the things i come up with a female could be also. im really trying to bear my soul to you but im struggling to put it to words.

That's totally fair, and it's a big part of the reason why it's so hard to have conversations specifically about gender identities, and especially ones that we don't already understand well. It's hard to talk about things that are (to a significant degree) innate. In contrast, gender expression is incredibly easy to talk about.

It's not all about the innate stuff though. Experience is a significant part of our gender identities. It's interesting that you mentioned judging other people, because being judged has been a big part of my experience thus far of being a woman, and one that I share with almost all of my female friends. I am judged for everything. If i'm not smiling, men I pass on the street tell me to smile. If I go to work without or with minimal makeup, people ask me if I'm feeling okay, or tell me I need to take care of myself. If I go to work with too much makeup on, people ask me who I'm trying to impress. If I wear natural makeup, nobody pays much attention to me at all. If I sit quietly and listen to what a man has to say then I'm being too passive and need to speak up. If I actually speak my mind declaratively/firmly, then I'm told to settle down. The only way I can routinely get away with suggesting something contentious is with 4 qualifiers and an "...I mean, maybe? What do you think?" attached.

Almost all of that comes from men. In my experience, most women who judge other women in those ways do so reflexively after a lifetime of being judged, sometimes to try and roll with or impress the men. All of my really close friends are women, and I've come to love them even more in the last two years because our friendship is a safe zone where there's no judgment.

It doesn't matter whether men are wearing dresses or not; it's the same. I had a number of experiences where CDs actually told me I was "bad at being a woman" for wearing anything more practical/comfortable than a formal gown and 5" heels to an event, never mind the fact that all the GGs were dressed just like me. I can look "beautiful" in a fantastic dress and painful shoes, but I am always my most radiant when I'm sitting in the Napa sun with sunglasses, comfy jeans, and a loose shirt on laughing wholeheartedly over a glass of wine with my friends.

Most people who are not living their lives as women (and being seen as such) do not get to have those experiences, both for better and for worse. So, unfortunately that leaves us with trying to talk about the hardest thing - innate identity, and what it means to be a women in a world where experience isn't necessarily a part of it and primary/secondary sex characteristics aren't the primary determining factor.

- - - Updated - - -


I would like to ask you a question. Since I don't know what one gender is, what is it like being female to you?

In the absence of experience and genitals as a basis, my identity as a woman is largely driven by two things.


A deep discomfort with the idea being a man
My sense of empathy and the ways in which I connect with myself and others

To me, when men talk, especially with other men, it all seems so... simple. Because of A, it's B. Because B, it's C. Therefore, D. Linear thinking. I can understand them, but it's always been difficult to relate to them in a way that makes me feel like I'm really being understood.

I won't speak for other women, but I feel like my thoughts are distinctly less linear and fuzzier than most men I know, at least as far as I can tell. I'm almost never processing one stream of thought, and when I try, it's often interleaved with other related things. My world is connections. Connections between me and others, connections between experiences, and connections between thoughts. With respect to thoughts...

My mind feels like an infinite web of emotional connections between things. It's never, "something bad happened today, and that sucks. Moving on." Very occasionally, it used to be, but estrogen cleared the last of that right up.

It's, "something bad happened, and my mom is having such a hard time lately, and oh god why did my manager make that comment today, and maybe I just wasn't interesting enough to make that really boring guy be less boring, and what if it's really my fault that my mom is struggling, maybe I should've done more, ugh, I'm so done with this week, but I have to clean because that other guy is coming to my party tomorrow, wow I'm really tired, and all I want is a burrito but I'm on this diet, and god what do I even think about that guy, and do I have to worry about my job because of what my manager said, and I mean, that guy's cute but, ugh why is my mom in my head so much today, and OH SHIT I'm supposed to bring a cake to my FRIEND'S party tomorrow, and ugh maybe I should just go for it because I really like that guy and I'd rather try, and ugh, was my day really that bad, I mean my mom's having such a hard time, why should I get to feel so bad... <DEEP BREATH> I'm going to take a bath and read a book so I can avoid thinking for a bit".

I would struggle to explain how, but when I'm with other women (cis or trans), I feel very at ease - we are speaking the same language. When men are around, whether they're wearing dresses or not, I feel like I'm having to speak in a language that I learned a bit of in high school, but can't really fully express myself in.

[Tina_gm]

Zooey, you are asking some awesome questions here. Basically what you are doing is showing the difference between someone who likes to dress and play the part, vs. someone who truly is. I do believe that the dual gender people (I consider myself to be one) are a mixture of the male/female gender. It is however those physical things that help us to identify what we are feeling, to a point anyway. When you are part, but not complete, you need a little bit more than a simple "I just know I am" Something which makes you realize it, or feel it. And it swings to both genders, so the same basically for the male aspects as well. We tend to feel one side more than the other when we are doing something, or wearing clothes and presenting ourselves. But then again, it is what drives that in the 1st place.... WHAT is it that makes a biological male feel the desire to dress, look and behave like a woman? Now, there are many different reasons, but one of them other than actually being a woman is being gender fluid, or dual gender. If there is one thing I can say that is without a physical object.

For me, I guess it is when I am around other women and I just feel like one of them. Not really any real explanation other than, I feel like I am the same as her. I also feel the same about guys. And, there are some things that women often do, and men often do, that I do not connect with. It has nothing to do with any clothing, or any actual activity I am doing or they are doing... It is just a feeling of a me too, or nope, not me.

TS women once they have a full realization of it, don't have any way of expressing it other than they just know, they just are. They feel it. A feeling that is without any doubt. True gender fluid... feel it, not quite so distinctly, but for me does not depend on what I am doing or what I am wearing, and I feel both genders. Sometimes one stronger than the other, sometimes they seem to be equal. I relate to both men and women on that personal level that cannot be explained other than it just is. edit-
activities, or surroundings do sometimes trigger a swing to one side or the other. at least for me they do.

[ReineD]

For me, I guess it is when I am around other women and I just feel like one of them. Not really any real explanation other than, I feel like I am the same as her.

Like Zooey, I would like to understand better. So my question is, do you just feel this way when you are around women, and not this way when you're not? Is this what you mean by fluid?

[Robin414]

I had an ah ha moment on Friday morning that made me think maybe I'm not TG and I can be 'stable' as gender fluid. I looked in mirror (hadn't shaved in two days) and realized I looked like a guy, like full on and something clicked, I'm gender fluid and loving it!

As for a definition, for me at least it's being comfortable with face fur OR foundation depending on my mood, and feeling like I fit in with a bunch of 'ranging bulls' just as easily as with a bunch of women.

[Dana44]

Zooey, thanks for that response. I agree in talking to men. So simple in their talk that I just tuned them out mostly. I do go to the girls to talk and have always done that and you are right about the difference in the thought processes of their talking. The female side of the brain is so much more. I can't even express myself to men as I am far more deeper in thought than them. I see more and retain more. But being male I was quite social. I don't think that is not a typical male trait either.

[mykell]

morning zooey,
got up early today, feelings to your post are in blue, pink was not pleasing on the eyes, the rest of my thoughts are below your quote....


See, it wasn't just the analogy at the end though. Those things were the dominant force throughout your response. I'm not blaming you - expression is easier to talk about, and a convenient crutch.
crutch perhaps, convenient truth as i have some feminine traits.
That's totally fair, and it's a big part of the reason why it's so hard to have conversations specifically about gender identities, and especially ones that we don't already understand well. It's hard to talk about things that are (to a significant degree) innate. In contrast, gender expression is incredibly easy to talk about.
thank you for asking this....ive had some truth about recent events make sense from thinking about this.
It's not all about the innate stuff though. Experience is a significant part of our gender identities. It's interesting that you mentioned judging other people, because being judged has been a big part of my experience thus far of being a woman, and one that I share with almost all of my female friends. I am judged for everything. If i'm not smiling, men I pass on the street tell me to smile. If I go to work without or with minimal makeup, people ask me if I'm feeling okay, or tell me I need to take care of myself. If I go to work with too much makeup on, people ask me who I'm trying to impress. If I wear natural makeup, nobody pays much attention to me at all. If I sit quietly and listen to what a man has to say then I'm being too passive and need to speak up. If I actually speak my mind declaratively/firmly, then I'm told to settle down. The only way I can routinely get away with suggesting something contentious is with 4 qualifiers and an "...I mean, maybe? What do you think?" attached.
so please know that i was not judging them as women, i was judging theyre outfits which i think i can say with some degree of confidence women do this to other women.
these other points of judgment you make to me can be said to me when interacting with folks also, well all with the exception of makeup in daily life. so i dont think it is something that only a women can feel. men can judge but they are also judged, by men and by women, so all can be made to feel insecure.
Almost all of that comes from men. In my experience, most women who judge other women in those ways do so reflexively after a lifetime of being judged, sometimes to try and roll with or impress the men. All of my really close friends are women, and I've come to love them even more in the last two years because our friendship is a safe zone where there's no judgment.
jelous as im lacking in friends, male or female, knowledge of my dressing when in my youth seems to catch up to me and hamper my ability to retain real friendships.
It doesn't matter whether men are wearing dresses or not; it's the same. I had a number of experiences where CDs actually told me I was "bad at being a woman" for wearing anything more practical/comfortable than a formal gown and 5" heels to an event, never mind the fact that all the GGs were dressed just like me. I can look "beautiful" in a fantastic dress and painful shoes, but I am always my most radiant when I'm sitting in the Napa sun with sunglasses, comfy jeans, and a loose shirt on laughing wholeheartedly over a glass of wine with my friends.
there was a thread here awhile ago about you know your a women, or something like this, my response was when you can put on a pair of jeans and tee shirt with your hair up and rock the look, most who water in the MtF section will never be able to, but my point was most of the answers were about your qualifiers, things.
Most people who are not living their lives as women (and being seen as such) do not get to have those experiences, both for better and for worse. So, unfortunately that leaves us with trying to talk about the hardest thing - innate identity, and what it means to be a women in a world where experience isn't necessarily a part of it and primary/secondary sex characteristics aren't the primary determining factor.
which is why i think it was so hard for me to put it to words. i felt the pressure and felt you asked me as a man, not as an equal, not as a women and my default was to respond as a man instead of a women.
- - - Updated - - -



In the absence of experience and genitals as a basis, my identity as a woman is largely driven by two things.


A deep discomfort with the idea being a man
My sense of empathy and the ways in which I connect with myself and others

To me, when men talk, especially with other men, it all seems so... simple. Because of A, it's B. Because B, it's C. Therefore, D. Linear thinking. I can understand them, but it's always been difficult to relate to them in a way that makes me feel like I'm really being understood.
for me when talking with men and i show my vulnerable side, my compassion, or empathy it is received as weakness in my character and thus i will feel less comfortable as part of the conversation....thus my preference to be on the ladies side of the room
I won't speak for other women, but I feel like my thoughts are distinctly less linear and fuzzier than most men I know, at least as far as I can tell. I'm almost never processing one stream of thought, and when I try, it's often interleaved with other related things. My world is connections. Connections between me and others, connections between experiences, and connections between thoughts. With respect to thoughts...
is it just fuzzier just than men you know, or is it different from the person you were before also, im curious....
My mind feels like an infinite web of emotional connections between things. It's never, "something bad happened today, and that sucks. Moving on." Very occasionally, it used to be, but estrogen cleared the last of that right up.
you have me at a disadvantage with this as i have no context to compare my before self to my after self from the chemical balance side of things.
It's, "something bad happened, and my mom is having such a hard time lately, and oh god why did my manager make that comment today, and maybe I just wasn't interesting enough to make that really boring guy be less boring, and what if it's really my fault that my mom is struggling, maybe I should've done more, ugh, I'm so done with this week, but I have to clean because that other guy is coming to my party tomorrow, wow I'm really tired, and all I want is a burrito but I'm on this diet, and god what do I even think about that guy, and do I have to worry about my job because of what my manager said, and I mean, that guy's cute but, ugh why is my mom in my head so much today, and OH SHIT I'm supposed to bring a cake to my FRIEND'S party tomorrow, and ugh maybe I should just go for it because I really like that guy and I'd rather try, and ugh, was my day really that bad, I mean my mom's having such a hard time, why should I get to feel so bad... <DEEP BREATH> I'm going to take a bath and read a book so I can avoid thinking for a bit".
in one of my earlier responses i mentioned my overthinking things, what you described here makes perfect sense to me, but i can still be a linear thinker also also.
I would struggle to explain how, but when I'm with other women (cis or trans), I feel very at ease - we are speaking the same language.
this is something i really connected with, earlier when i spoke of my interaction at the support events and wig salon the conversations may have been about things but what i was really trying to convey was how i felt at ease and accepted as a peer, casual and comfortable, this example revolves around my wig but is not about the wig, i had dropped it off to have it reconditioned, when i came back to pick it up all the conversation and responses were organic, natural, thats a beautiful wig from one customer, the owner held it up high to show me just like i was one of the girls, i did not show my normal sighs of shame like i would in the past, i felt accepted.


zooey im in your dept, thanks for helping me find perspective !!

now things have clicked, all my life folks have said im too sensitive, you wear your emotions on your sleeve, why do i cry so easy when the tearjerkers come ? even my wife knows to lean forward and look over to catch me, traits that i thought all shared.... vulnerable.....emotional....insecure....feelings.. ..

when in the pack of men i am perceived as week but in my heart i feel my weaknesses are my strengths, my compassion, my empathy, my ability to have a heart and feel, but somehow when with them im made to feel insecure of myself as i dont fit, dont get me wrong, i can fit in with the right pack but the norm is most times i do not...

on the other hand those times of fitting in with the women can be filled with anxiety and insecurity when things dont click, i can find a few alpha females and get the "why is this dude ruining our girl time" vibe and made to feel uncomfortable with those i would prefer to hang with also, so it fluctuates.


When men are around, whether they're wearing dresses or not, I feel like I'm having to speak in a language that I learned a bit of in high school, but can't really fully express myself in.

this rang true for me here....of my most unpleasant times here on the forum were when i could not understand some points of view, and what it came down to for me was they were speaking as men even thought they dress as women, where i was in a place of what i will call my womens point of view....reasoning the point from compassion, or being empathetic and caring, maybe even nurturing a new member or one who came in need. i felt i had to help this person where some could give a damn. they were linear in theyre thoughts, no bending "Because of A, it's B. Because B, it's C. Therefore, D." cavalier....indifferent....inconsiderate....

your ability to put your thoughts into words that i could relate to have me in a eureka moment.....again thank you for provoking my thoughts, yesterday i had started to bounce this to a new thread and copied some replies into it as i thought we may have hijacked the thread, in the end i did not as it is relevant to the definition of how i define gender fluid, so although i could not put it in words i can relate to the ones you describe for how you feel as a women. you have given me some clarity of my-self with this....all i can say is that i find you are a beautiful down to earth women and hope you understand and could feel the same toward myself.

[Ressie]

I had an ah ha moment on Friday morning that made me think maybe I'm not TG and I can be 'stable' as gender fluid.

Doesn't gender fluid fall under the TG umbrella?

[Allisa]

OK, read this thread for the umpteenth time. From my point of view being a Gender Fluid being that I can explain it as an emotional state of mind, for me it's like looking at a sunset and all of a sudden feeling so happy and comfortable in the world tears of joy come to my eyes, looking at a piece of art and finally seeing the colors not just the whole depiction. I refer to my "episodes" as the "warm and fuzzy's". They are always there but life and circumstances dictate what "state" my mind I must be in so my actions are appropriately defined. A phrase I've heard many times before from both genders is "were' acting a little bit "girly" today huh?" and not being in line with my presentation on the surface, of course it was said as a derogatory statement and very judgmental. It just so happens that I am a CDer, coincidental? who knows. Being human is confusing enough, I'm just glad that "we" have the ability to contemplate such abstract things as gender variances and the labels we assign to them. Now on a lighter note caffeine is wearing off, time for a refill.

[Nadine Spirit]

I love that second to last line in the above post!

[Dana44]

Mikell, you brought up some of the great points of gender fluid. I agree that we have far more compassion and feelings. Yep we cry to easily and other emotions. I think Zooey pointed out how a female thinks. I thank her for that. It reflects many of the the things we feel but the innate gender of female of what we are familiar with does not fully relate as it does for her. But we do know what that feels like. We also know male dominance and the pecking order. Heh, one of the times of my life I was high on that list. But as I am aging and now can express myself. I fell that I'm slipping more and more into that female gender but I want to be a girl, But no your a boy stupid. Noo.. i want to be a girl. Yeah right, but you are and will die a boy. Ah, heck this gender stuff is crazy.

[Jenniferathome]

...For me, I guess it is when I am around other women and I just feel like one of them. Not really any real explanation other than, I feel like I am the same as her. ...

Sounds like Woody Allen's 'Zelig'

[Robin414]

Doesn't gender fluid fall under the TG umbrella?

I imagine it does, technically, but my personal interpretation of TG is changing gender completely and permanently...I don't think I'm there yet

[Pat]

Gender fluid falls under transgender. Pretty much anything that is not cisgender falls under transgender except perhaps agender (the sense of not having any gender at all.) though there's a case to be made for even that being under transgender because it is differing from assigned gender at birth.

Robin, changing "gender completely and permanently" is transsexual, assuming you mean you change from male to female or female to male.

Usually I'm a big fan of people doing what they want and setting their own rules, but when it comes to language, I become less loosey-goosey because we can only communicate if we use reasonably precise definitions. ;)

[Dana44]

Jennie, well said, yeah the Transgender or TG is what it is and we gender fluid fall under that. Robin, It is transsexual or TS that is a a permanent change.
Even though we grew up male we never really felt as a true man. And we are gender fluid, so both sides we know but not as well as one who identifies as one gender. Like I said it's crazy to be this way. My SO is really trying to understand but she don't even have a clue to what this is like for us.

[Robin414]

Thanks for the clarification Jennie and Dana, I guess I'm happily TG (kinda, maybe a little bit) 😉

[ReineD]

Gender fluid falls under transgender. Pretty much anything that is not cisgender falls under transgender except perhaps agender (the sense of not having any gender at all.) though there's a case to be made for even that being under transgender because it is differing from assigned gender at birth.

Jennie, I hear what you're saying, and this explanation is fine if, for example, you're at a party with mostly cisgenders while presenting as Jennie. Someone asks, "How do you identity", to which you reply, "transgender". They say, "Cool", and no further questions are asked. This other person likely doesn't ask any more questions, because they think they already know what this means based on what they've been exposed to, whatever this may be, and they just assume that you mean what they think it means. So to one person at that party, "transgender" means what Kaytlin Jenner does (born a woman, full transition with name change). To someone else who doesn't pay much attention to the media, it may mean the people who do drag shows. To someone else, it may mean the gay guy dressed as a woman at a gay pride parade that their friend told them about 5 years ago. And to someone else, it may mean a crossdresser. Or, the worst case scenario, a very ignorant person who believes all the tripe in the south right now that transgenders are men who want to use women's bathrooms will think this is what you mean. Are you happy with the random definitions that people who do not know all the finer details will apply to you, just based on what they think "transgender" means? Or, maybe you just don't care because you're not that interested in having these people know who you are and what you're about, which is OK too?

Or, let's say you participate in a thread here that asks specifically what type of transgender are the members. Or, you join a TG support group and you're talking to a group of people who ask you specifically how you identify, with the understanding that you will convey how you live, how you feel about yourself, and what your goals are. Or, you are beginning a relationship with someone who wants to know if you're a man or a woman or if it's something in between, what this means exactly.

So what do you say, exactly, when someone wants to know what you mean by "transgender"?

[Pat]

Are you happy with the random definitions that people who do not know all the finer details will apply to you, just based on what they think "transgender" means?

I'm totally at peace with that in the party scenario. They have found a place to pigeonhole me and we can both get on with our evenings. In the unlikely event they ask, I can bore them to tears with details. ;) It's no different than when they ask what I do and I answer "creative consultant" and they nod their head sagely. I know without question they don't have the slightest idea but I've given them what they're looking for and we're both happy with that.

In cases where I'm talking to people who are educated on the TG spectrum I can say more, but as I'm sure you're aware, there is little agreement in terms. Many words carry an emotional charge that is specific to the listener. For example, I'm perfectly comfortable with the term "transvestite" because it has no emotional overlay to me. I know many on this forum load a lot of meanings on to that word, so I don't use it here much. I was a theatre major -- the prime directive is "read the room"; figure out what they want. If they want to know what I do, who I'm attracted to, etc. I can talk to that, but I adjust my pitch to the audience. ;)

But if it's possible, I like to use precise words with defined meanings. If I'm at an HRC event, for example, I can get trans-geeky with my peers.

[Zooey]

There are some little things here and there in your responses that I would love to talk about more, but I think they open up too many other difficult conversations for this thread.

At any rate, I shared something pretty deep down in me when I talked about how I feel my brain processes things. It's not something I usually talk about in the company of men. I would love to read it if you would share something of your own like that. I think knowing people more deeply is a good path to understanding.

[flatlander_48]

To me, when men talk, especially with other men, it all seems so... simple. Because of A, it's B. Because B, it's C. Therefore, D. Linear thinking. I can understand them, but it's always been difficult to relate to them in a way that makes me feel like I'm really being understood.

Back in the mid-90's, an employee affinity group of which I was president, brought in a husband and wife team to do a personal growth and development workshop. One of the topics had to do with how people think and work based on cultural background. The audience was engineers and technicians. It always struck me that I worked differently from other engineers, but I had no idea as to what that meant. What I learned was that my default was not logic; it was intuition. Logic is used in support of intuition. It's not that I don't, or can't, do logic. It's just not where I start.

The thing is that it isn't necessarily a disadvantage. Often it means concentrating on something as opposed to a step-by-step procedure. In the context of this discussion, it is more towards the feminine than the masculine.


So what do you say, exactly, when someone wants to know what you mean by "transgender"?

I've always been pretty specific. I've told people that I identify as transgender, but I have no plans to transition. Not everyone who identifies as transgender needs to transition. The degree of mismatch that I have is not enough to make transition a necessity.

DeeAnn

[Georgette_USA]

Robin, changing "gender completely and permanently" is transsexual, assuming you mean you change from male to female or female to male.


Gender identity is not having a male or female body. Most TS will argue WE do not change gender. WE come to grips with that we are born with the wrong bodies for our gender identity. We fix the bodies to align with OUR gender identity.

[Pat]

Georgette -- I understand. And I realize that TS folk experience huge amounts of frustration over the semantics invoked when non-TS people are trying to do their best to put words around something they don't (can't) understand. I was trying to respond to Robin in her terms. Sometimes precision is the enemy of communication. No disrespect meant.

[Georgette_USA]

Jennie
I assume there was NO intentional disrespect. We live in a confusing world. I just like to clarify assumptions sometimes.

It can be a touchy subject to some I know. Education and explanations, especially on a generic TG forum. Being very old school, I don't always understand TS that don't go the full route, but I accept that WE are all different.

I like when others explain things to me things that are confusing, like the threads dealing with Gender Fluid. I accept that some men, for whatever reason cross dress, but can't say I understand, just as many can't explain/understand also. I know quite a few, and have to say they are very happy for those times.

[Pat]

There are some little things here and there in your responses that I would love to talk about more, but I think they open up too many other difficult conversations for this thread.

Hi Zooey -- (Love the name.) I don't know if that was directed to me or if it just happened to happen after my post. I went back and looked at your previous postings and it seems you're after something very worthwhile but perhaps impossible to achieve.


Can anybody here who identifies as gender fluid try to articulate what it feels like WITHOUT referring to conventional and/or visible gender EXPRESSION (e.g. clothes, mannerisms, etc.)?

To me that's a lot like asking someone to describe yellow without using things that are yellow as a reference. Very hard.

Asking a gender fluid person to explain being gender fluid puts a huge burden on them because you're asking them to know what it's like to NOT be gender fluid and then highlight the differences. All you'll get from that in an insight into how little they understand what it's like to NOT be gender fluid. It's like a straight person trying to explain what it's like to be gay or a sighted person to describe what it's like to be blind. There's just no frame of reference there. I'm not saying it can't be explained, but it can't be explained in words. One of my earliest transformative moments was when I realized that there are situations where you can't use words. People use examples from their lives to try and express the ineffable but chances are you're going to have to read a lot of those to find the common thread. And even then you might not be able to absorb the message. (Abstract "you"; not dissing you personally.)

Moving on...

Your description of your thought processes in reply #41 is awesome and makes me feel that we think alike, but since I don't know how other people think I'm not sure it distinguishes either of us from the rest of humanity. People, as best I can tell, only think linearly in novels. Some people are better at filtering out all the side-trips and footnotes when they're talking to others, but I don't believe it's a gender characteristic but more of a learned behavior on top of a personality type.

Personality type can be somewhat reflected by the Jungian personality types which when tested for frequently result in a four-letter (keep your mind out of the gutter) designator (mine is INFP, for example) that specifies how you approach/assimilate information. Some people believe in them strongly, some view it as astrology for the psychologically inclined. But it keys into DeeAnn's remarks a bit in that it can help sort out if you approach things with intuition (using feelings to acquire information, as she and I apparently do) or with "sensing" (think "using sensors to acquire information.")

I think one thing we as a group should take away from our experiences is that we shouldn't assign behaviors to sex roles. We're victims of that. Break the cycle. You describe things with reference to men and it may be important to understand that it's not their dangly bits that make the difference it's their approach and although statistically you're more likely to find specific behaviors among men, they exist in women as well. It's possible to find men who cooperate instead of compete, who approach problems with empathy instead of analysis, who use perception instead of "facts." In other words, we're all correct in our approach to life even though we all have different approaches. (Sorry, seem to have wandered off track a bit... Again.) My advice is don't seek The Answer because it's not going to be 42 or the letter C -- the answer is different for everyone and all of those different answers are correct. And interestingly all of those different answers, except yours, are wrong for you. (I should embroider that somewhere.) The danger is if you seek a single answer of what it is to be gender fluid or some other thing then you separate the world into people who are doing it right and people who are doing it wrong and you're saying you have the wisdom to know the difference. Don't fall for it. I'm doing what's right for me as best I know how. You're doing what's right for you. The key is learning to trust each other that we will make the right decisions. ;)

[Saikotsu]

I doubt that there will ever be an agreed upon, official definition, however your Google search hits it pretty well on the head if you ask me. Some days I feel more female. Others more male. Some days I'm neither, both, or something in between. Because it shifts seemingly at random, I consider myself gender fluid.

[Zooey]

Jennie, I get what you're saying. I'm not looking for some miraculous answer or logical explanation though... What I'm looking for is a connection.

There are men and women of all sorts, and I connect and relate with all of them slightly differently. Amongst women, there has always been a common underlying feeling to that connection (the same is true for men). When somebody tells me that they are a woman, or part woman, or sometimes a woman, etc., I start looking for that feeling. I WANT to find it - I have no interest in disproving or denying somebody's identity; I want to relate to people in that way. It's a lot harder online when I can't find it, because all I can do is ask questions.

I have struggled to find that connection here with gender fluid people so far. If there's some woman in there, I want to find it. I really want somebody to share something about their life that makes me go, "oh, there it is" and feel some of that energy. I'm pretty good with subtext, and THAT's what I'm paying attention to.

Maybe I AM asking for the impossible. I don't know. It doesn't feel like it should be.

[Nadine Spirit]

Being as I don't personally identify as gender fluid, I don't think I am in a position to attempt an answer to your question Zooey. I could attempt an answer as one who identifies somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, albeit in a static sense and not a fluid one.

[flatlander_48]

I have struggled to find that connection here with gender fluid people so far. If there's some woman in there, I want to find it. I really want somebody to share something about their life that makes me go, "oh, there it is" and feel some of that energy. I'm pretty good with subtext, and THAT's what I'm paying attention to.

Maybe I AM asking for the impossible. I don't know. It doesn't feel like it should be.

I wouldn't say impossible, but perhaps it might be difficult. I would think that when something shifts for a given person, what you would need to know the circumstances leading up to that point in time. Other than changes in body chemistry, what series of thoughts and events would come together to bring about the result. Someone would need to keep a diary of those periods in time in order to begin to understand what's going on. It would seem like that's the kind of information that you need.

DeeAnn

[Saikotsu]

Jennie, I get what you're saying. I'm not looking for some miraculous answer or logical explanation though... What I'm looking for is a connection.

There are men and women of all sorts, and I connect and relate with all of them slightly differently. Amongst women, there has always been a common underlying feeling to that connection (the same is true for men). When somebody tells me that they are a woman, or part woman, or sometimes a woman, etc., I start looking for that feeling. I WANT to find it - I have no interest in disproving or denying somebody's identity; I want to relate to people in that way. It's a lot harder online when I can't find it, because all I can do is ask questions.

I have struggled to find that connection here with gender fluid people so far. If there's some woman in there, I want to find it. I really want somebody to share something about their life that makes me go, "oh, there it is" and feel some of that energy. I'm pretty good with subtext, and THAT's what I'm paying attention to.

Maybe I AM asking for the impossible. I don't know. It doesn't feel like it should be.
I don't think it's impossible at all. People who've known me a while pick up on "that certain something" that tips them off. In fact, many of my friends knew I was gender fluid before I did. But not one of them can tell me what it was that they picked up on. It was just...there.
There was nothing specific that they could identify. I've found that over time, perceptive people can gain a sense of my internal identity and will call me by my (at the time) preferred pronoun.

Sometimes this happens with people who aren't even in the know. I always find it amusing when they apologize profusely for calling me "she" while I'm internally really happy they did.

Anyway, Zooey, I'd love to help you find that connection. I think that if I help you find that connection, I might find some answers of my own. If nothing else, I'll find more questions.

[pamela7]

I believe I might understand why Zooey asks and Mikell's answers as they do; I resonate with their expressions.
As i did not think about my gender until a year ago, and as it took me nine months to finally know and for everything to click into place, I'm faced with a similar thing here. I certainly feel some "fluid" folk here are likely in transition albeit a lot more slowly than my own path, whereas most folk act really as men here without much feminine apart from the clothes. I've felt most transwomen here as "feels like a woman" and the odd one "feels like a man", I can't really describe it, like Zooey says, it's a feeling you get.

I've not thought about this "feeling the other person's gender" before, but checking back into past situations and present ones, the feelings are there. Recently, men look at me differently, communicate differently, a couple of old male friends have definitely distanced themselves, and I've been "looked up and down" a few times, the most unexpected of which was a gay couple (friends of a female friend met in passing), as if I were also on their radar.

So to the feeling of "fluid", I can calibrate a feeling of "in transition, probably a woman in a male body not yet knowing it for sure", and "a man who fluidly presents/behaves as a woman", but is it a binary switch or are there times when it's "both"? I can't find the feeling yet. If the "present self" is either masc or femme, then there is often an instant switch, but like with a borderline personality, sometimes it will switch gradually over days or hours. The question is whether this state has a different feeling or whether "fluid" itself is distinct or a presentation of a twin-spirit. Food for thought.

[Nadine Spirit]

I think you are on to something here Pamela. One of the big reasons I do not consider myself to be gender fluid is because I hated the ups and downs with switching back and forth between male and female. Neither space ever felt complete right for me.

But for some, they appear to be very happy with switching back and forth and some even indicate that their entire personalities switch when they present as the other gender.

I think those that are gender fluid feel a shift within themselves that sometimes feels more male and other times it feels more female, but there is something that is changing for them on some sort of time scale, days, weeks, months, etc.

[mechamoose]

'Gender fluid'

Is that this purple stuff?

I'm kind of walking GF. I'm not worrying about which slot I fit in (unless sex is involved) In that case, I like what you brought.

We ARE who we ARE.

Dammit, why is this still an issue?

We are just us, aren't we?

- MM

[Nadine Spirit]

Uhh, Moose? Some of us like to discuss the meaning of words/phrases, it's okay actually.

[Pat]

Like Nadine, I consider myself gender constant but my presentation is fluid. Neither full male nor full female seem correct to me but mixed presentation, although a happy place for me, is confusing to the world around me. But I could see some people describing what I'm talking about as being gender fluid if they are uncomfortable with the middle. I can only describe it by analogy:

Imagine you're bilingual. Let's say you're fluent in French and English -- spoke both at home since you were a child. People who are truly fluent in a language think in it and my experience with linguists is that they "drop into a groove" and in a weird Newtonian kind of way stay there until something pops them out of it. Now imagine you wake up in the morning after having dreamt in French all night. You wake up thinking of breakfast and your inner monologue is in French, do your daily tasks thinking of them in French. And since nothing pops you out of the French groove, you spend the entire day speaking and thinking in French. But that night you dream in English. And you wake up thinking of breakfast and your inner monologue is in English. You start your day in English, but then a friend from Paris calls you and as soon as you answer the phone, you pop out of the English groove and into the French one.

My life is kind of like that -- I wake up and I might know it's a Jennie day. And I'll go about my day as Jennie start to finish. But the next morning, for whatever reason I wake up Patrick. I go about my day as Patrick until a package arrives in the mail with new clothes, say, and I jump out of the Patrick groove and into Jennie just like switching languages. Internally, I don't have that Patrick/Jennie distinction but I use it so I can talk about the phenomenon. Switching languages doesn't change how you think even though certain languages are better than others for expressing some concepts. Switching presentations doesn't change who I am though some presentations are better than others for certain tasks (Jennie never shovels snow. Patrick is boring at parties.) So I don't know if that's gender fluid in some people's book. It's not in mine. Does it help at all with what you're looking for?


'Gender fluid'

Is that this purple stuff?


Oh, Moose, you still miss Prince don't you? I like to think of gender fluid as that stuff two happy people get all over each other. ;)

[Saikotsu]

'Gender fluid'

Is that this purple stuff?

I'm kind of walking GF. I'm not worrying about which slot I fit in (unless sex is involved) In that case, I like what you brought.

We ARE who we ARE.

Dammit, why is this still an issue?

We are just us, aren't we?

- MM


I don't think anyone here is saying that we aren't who we are. Rather, I think people are trying to figure our unique experiences. Its a very foreign concept to people. The vast majority are wired one way or the other. It's hard to conceive of being male one day and female the next. So they try to understand it the best way they know how, By categorizing and labels. I for one like the term, and I enjoy discussing it because I can help people understand my perspective. Likewise, in trying to explain it to people who are not like myself, I can get a glimpse of what it's like to be them too.

Jennie actually made a very insightful comment with the "multilingual" theory. Generally speaking, I wake up each morning and I'm something. Be it male, female, neither, or some mixture of both, or some third gender. However, certain things can "pop" me out of that and trigger a shift. Sometimes I gradually shift over the course of the day.

@pamela7:
I'd be very interested in how I "come across" or "feel" to you. Am I a woman in a man's body? Am I a woman? Am I in a slow transition? Am I a man? Or do I feel like a woman trapped in a man's body? Or do none of these fit? Please, feel free to answer honestly, you've piqued my curiosity, and I promise to not be offended by your answer.

[mechamoose]

Yah, the loss of Prince was hard. Such a pretty man, so talented. Especially now that I know what kind of a philanthropist he was...

I *love* nittering over words, just ask my kids.

I got -eyerolls- from my 7 year old grandson this weekend over asking how hard he hit his pound cake.

I'm kind of comfortable in the fact that I'm a girl in a thoroughly male body. I dress 'swishy' even when obviously male. I don't believe I could ever pass (Unlike Jennie, who is pretty damn cute) Most folks just assume I'm gay. While I am thoroughly Bi, I'm not gay. Yet another invisible minority.

I'm 6'2" 245# built like a wedge, and my wife asks if I'm ok if I'm *not* dressing in skirts and frills.

"It's BIG, its SCARY, its been DONE BEFORE" - Tribe

- MM

[ReineD]

I don't think anyone here is saying that we aren't who we are. Rather, I think people are trying to figure our unique experiences. Its a very foreign concept to people. The vast majority are wired one way or the other. It's hard to conceive of being male one day and female the next. So they try to understand it the best way they know how,

When I first joined this forum many years ago, I took it that people who straddle the gender divide were called "crossdresser". And then the terms "bigender" or "dualgender" began making an appearance. The term "genderqueer" has been popping in and out of the lexicon too. Over the years, there has been "inbetweener", "pangender", "femulator", "gender-nonconforming" and a slew of others I can't remember at the moment.

Now, I use the term "gender fluid" simply because it is there, it is simple and is all-encompassing, it doesn't label or fall in or out of fashion like the other words. It's a term as good as any to describe someone who does not feel a solid, unchangeable, 24/7 gender identity like "male" or "female", specifically it describes someone who fluctuates between the two.

But, Nadine has brought up the idea that a non-binary gender is not necessarily fluid. It does not necessarily fluctuate. Some people always feel internally the same state of in-between no matter how they dress, and so this is not fluid. I agree.

[mechamoose]

But, Nadine has brought up the idea that a non-binary gender is not necessarily fluid. It does not necessarily fluctuate. Some people always feel internally the same state of in-between no matter how they dress, and so this is not fluid. I agree.

So like, 'static' in the in between status?

If so, I don't morph much. I need to examine my own labels.

- MM

[Georgette_USA]

See my post in thread on a FtM trans, with my experience with a Gender Non-Confirming person.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?239576-I-think-I-saw-an-F-T-M-trans-person-yesterday-and-I-was-in-awe

[mechamoose]

Self referential link?

It isn't like I have not seen US before. I was trying to identify how your view was different and changed my life.

- MM

[Saikotsu]

When I first joined this forum many years ago, I took it that people who straddle the gender divide were called "crossdresser". And then the terms "bigender" or "dualgender" began making an appearance. The term "genderqueer" has been popping in and out of the lexicon too. Over the years, there has been "inbetweener", "pangender", "femulator", "gender-nonconforming" and a slew of others I can't remember at the moment.

Now, I use the term "gender fluid" simply because it is there, it is simple and is all-encompassing, it doesn't label or fall in or out of fashion like the other words. It's a term as good as any to describe someone who does not feel a solid, unchangeable, 24/7 gender identity like "male" or "female", specifically it describes someone who fluctuates between the two.

But, Nadine has brought up the idea that a non-binary gender is not necessarily fluid. It does not necessarily fluctuate. Some people always feel internally the same state of in-between no matter how they dress, and so this is not fluid. I agree.
Indeed, there are some out there who don't fluctuate and who always stay in that in between state. Since I spend the majority of my time feeling in-between or mixed, I think I have a pretty solid idea of what it would be like to experience that, though of course, since I DO fluctuate, I can't be certain.

- - - Updated - - -

@Mechamoose
Hehe. Pound Cake. I think I understand what you were trying to get at now.

[ReineD]

My SO is pretty much the same (personality, mood, & interests) whether dressed in feminine garb or not. My SO says there is no gender-ID fluctuation and certainly I detect none. To me, my SO is always the same person. He does not identify as a woman. He does recognizes that he has a male body, but he also knows he is not like men who do not explore femininity. :)

When my SO is dressed I call her by her feminine name. This is out of respect because it just seems weird to call someone by a man's name, who presents as a woman. I used to refer to my SO in this forum all the time as "she", when I thought she did have a female gender identity and when I thought that he would likely transition. But then I discovered this was not the case. I suppose I could refer to my SO with gender neutral pronouns "ze", "hir", but they are awkward to use and difficult to remember consistently. So I refer to my SO as "he" now, except when I describe an activity when she was dressed. Both my SO and I are perfectly OK with this.

So although my SO's internal gender-ID does not change, the presentation does and this is why I characterize my SO as being fluid. The presentation is fluid.

[mykell]

hello all

objectification (hey turns out thats a real word), so i was asked to describe how i felt to be a women, man did i struggle with that, went a few rounds with zooey here and in PMs, so what stood out after was stereotypes and how we objectify and not so much how i identify ? i shared some really deep stuff and i hope she can keep a secret (stereotype)...... and i shared this....


"sometimes i get vibes from one of the transmen in my support group, he is married and has a wife and they have a bambino, but every once in a while i "feel" him glaring, last time he attended he managed to sit next to me, he was not with his family, it was one of the only seats open so dont feel it was intentional, but all night i had an occasional un-comfort and "felt" his stares,

not sure why, but i will say this, ill say with honesty that i do this to women, my reason of coarse is innocent, his may have been too.... im checking out theyre fashion sense and checking for tips on how to put myself together as i find theyre style similar or nicer and think i may try it or the quality of theyre makeup (at least im looking them in the eye then if they catch on) not the usual quick manly glare which im still guilty of too, so this is possibly giving them uber creepy vibes and will do my best to not do so."

now what came to light to me since that is that i project my male objectification onto my female self.....too fat, too bald, too tall, not feminine enough, voice is too deep, makeup sucks, hairs not right, are my boobs too big, too small, how come my pictures aren't as pretty as the other girls, will i ever feel satisfied right.....what a emotional wreak (think thats another stereotype), women suffer through this on a daily basis, but here is something else, just look in the MtF photo section and most are trying to emulate the very image of a women that make them feel objectified, i do it to and when i do the negative comments are the ones that bother me the most, why so judgemental, right girls. you wore that with that....

but here was another thing i tried to convey, when a women can be just as attractive in jeans and a t-shirt with her hair pulled up to me and i cant even emulate the simpler comfy version of a women, i added the hair as most will be unable to do it and its kinda sexy.

OK heres the part that really pissed me off, my female side objectifies and stereotypes my male side, your fat, your bald, youll never get a pretty girl, your unsuccessful, your too old, is my member too small, do i really satisfy her, how come im not popular, think i made my point and shared a little too much here but i told zooey that i would have trouble describing myself as a male, this is just a sample but still think im fairly entrenched in both camps.

now i do feel i got the better deal as far as my marriage goes, shes a great person and i had a deep dark secret that shamed me.

so back to the photo dept......look at the replies, post a pretty picture and your popular, but share something less attractive and not so many replies, your the same person but everyone wants to be associated with the popular people. (stereotype)

now i generally stay away from the trans section as its real and emotional there, but i popped into the section and read a thread about how your sexuality changes, and another was having trouble scheduling procedures and the replies are nurturing, caring, concerned, very emotional stuff, stuff i think i do in the MtF but in general i see the male linear thinking zo described compared to the fuzzie rush of emotions, concerns, organic help being offered in the trans section.

so there is no flux, there is no flow, there is no measure of "fluid", there is just feelings and reactions......mental hopscotch....my-self, my identity. i feel i described male feelings as well as traits earlier, i also shared some female feelings as well as traits of a female. the fact remains that i felt this from an early age, i was five or six years old when i first realized this is who i am, slipping on my aunties high heels like a dork. it was not crafty marketing or mens sexualitation of women that drew my thoughts to these things. it was merely a preference of those things, i know its weird and hard to understand, am i sexist, im a big bag of testosterone, im attracted to barbie and cant lie about that. (stereotype alert) but a five year old sexist ?

i was a chunky kid, had to shop in the "husky section" (anyone else remember that) so now not only am i not looking at the clothes on the girls side i have to go to an even blander side of the boys side, ewwww.

i may be materialistic but who isnt in this day and age....and hey isnt that a women's prerogative. (stereotype)

so lets put up a new term gender central....

[pamela7]

Here's the doozy, in response to all the posts so far: I've been researching and modelling human experience for 16 years now, and by and large no-one thinks about anything unless it's an obsessive focus. So men don't think about being a man, and women neither. People don't really enquire what it's really like to be another person, to really see/feel/touch/think/move inside and out like that other person. We know there are no real "only this is male, only that is female" ways of being. What there are, are these two meta-tribes called "men" and "women" to which we have added all these other labels of variations and degrees.

Without getting into the ultra-private micro-detail of feelings, thoughts - how do we even know we see the same "green"; maybe my green is your blue? - we don't know what it's like to be another "man" or "woman" so how do we know whether we are fluid or really a male or a female? We just "know". Everything comes from that, the rest will be seen to be bs because it's all socially made-up constructs.

xxx :-)

[mechamoose]

With as much of a 'straight face' as I can manage...

We (blessed) folks get to wander between XX and XY.

That is where the 'fluid' stuff exists. The ability to wander.

We don't have to pick one, we might pick both (I know *I* do)

Humph.

Gender fluid vs, what? Gender rock?

Pthhth.

}:>

- MM

[flatlander_48]

No, as I said before: Gender Static.

So far I've not been aware of any shift in the male/female balance to my thinking. It is hard to quantify, but I would guess somewhere between 90/10 and 70/30, male to female. But, the point is that where ever it is, it hasn't changed.

DeeAnn

[Tina_gm]

The term fluid..... One analogy I have about those who are in the middle or the fence straddlers ( I am one) is that we are like turtles. I was on vacation a couple of years ago in Myrtle Beach. My condo overlooked this nice little lake. I loved watching the turtles. They reminded me of being gender fluid.... They would swim around, then climb out walk around, then go jump back in the lake. Turtles need both dry land and water.

Ask a cis gender person what it is like to be the gender they are, and they can't really come up with much of an answer. Or what is it like to be masculine or feminine. Usually they will just say, they just are. For us though, A lot of us will come up with all kinds of thoughts, and can come up with a lot of adjectives to describe what it is like to be masculine and feminine. Because we are both, We can differentiate it in ways cis gender people cannot. For some of us, there is a state of both simultaneously. Many of us however, tend to lean to one side of the gender fence or the other. Sometimes we need to be on dry land, other times, swimming in the water. Each of us finding the balance of how much time is needed for both.

[Dana44]

Fair description Gendermutt. It took me many years to understand that I was androgynous and I call it Gender fluid for short an easier explanation. I thought Jennies answer was great as it is something that is so hard to explain. Many of us have different views on gender fluid and yet we are so similar. But a CIS person will not understand. I try to explain it to my SO as I go though it and she is getting better at seeing that I am or not fem. But she says that she does not understand it. I wrote that switch thing a while back and she studied it and reflected that I had no emotion in it. LOL well some of the things that Zooey said in her dump was that the female mind is so flexible and things on many things at once. But on threads some of us have reflected that and we do reflect female views often as well as male views. A cis person would never understand us. I do try to say nice things and that is typically a female way in how we tell a girl that she looks great.