Attractive, or "Meh - take it or leave it"

[ReineD]

Someone said something in a thread that is prompting my question. I don't want to take the thread off track so I'm asking here.

Gendermutt, I'm quoting you but please know that I'm just using you as an example of sentiments I've read in this forum repeatedly. This isn't personal. :)

Here's the snippet of Gendermutt's post:


As I was doing so, I got a sudden feeling of wanting to wear what she was wearing, look like how she looked. ... It didn't take long at all for those feelings to start re surfacing. Imagining myself being one of the cheerleaders, I started noticing all the girls outfits...

I'm assuming the girl at the bar was attractive and she had attractive clothes, the kind of girl that guys want to come onto. And cheerleaders are certainly cute in their cheerleader outfits that guys normally enjoy looking at. :)

So for those of you who long to be the women you see, it is strictly women that you feel are attractive, or do you think you would have the same longing to look like say, an overweight girl in the library wearing nondescript clothes (baggy jeans and baggy Tshirt) with straggly hair and pimples, or a harried-looking mom who still has quite a gut from childbirth, chasing after her kids, wearing no makeup and a burp-stained baggy sweatshirt with sneakers. I'm creating these specific mental images to make sure that when you read this, you won't have in your mind's eye an attractive girl at the library or a cute young mom. I really would like to compare your reactions to attractive women vs women who are not particularly attractive.

I've been trying to figure this out for a while. So would you want to also "be" that woman, if she is the type of woman that does not appeal or that people tend to ignore because there is no wow factor, or no factor at all, not even "not bad".

[Laura912]

This could be interesting. As with male self, which is far from the "hunk" status, I would want the female self to be pleasing, poised, intelligent, and at least a little attractive. Just as I have not let current male self go to far down hill, I would not want the female aspect to do that either. Yes, there are days of patched jeans and sloppy tee shirts but those are associated with getting tasks done. Actually, most people probably will not choose your library gal nor mother, because it is human nature to want to look attractive. Darn. I have taken the bait for one of those how many angels can dance on the head of a pin discussions. Still, your question may prompt some interesting insights.

[Zooey]

An excellent question...

260923

[Robin414]

Interesting post Reine, I (still) remember watching a TG documentary when I was a kid (like in the late 70s or early 80s) and the interviewer asked the TG (soon to be TS) woman being interviewed

"But. ..what if you're....not pretty?"

She simply smiled and immediately replied, "I don't care if I'm pretty, I just want people to see me as a woman ☺ "

For me though, I'll be honest, if I ever do decide to jump off the pirate ship and climb aboard the love boat I'm pretty sure I'll be signing up for FFS!

[Jenniferathome]

...So for those of you who long to be the women you see,...

Reine, is this directed at trans people or to the cross dressers who fantasize about "being" the woman they see?

[Dana44]

Reine, I find women attractive. However I like tall skinny ones who can dress quite well. That is a woman that I like to be. I'm tall, but I've had GF's taller than me. So, even though I am older I like to dress well and as well as some of them I had. Most of my GF's had a really great wow factor and I enjoyed it with her and I was her man. LOL but life caught up with me and it took me years to finally figure out what I was. My SO does dress up to go out with me and I tell her she looks pretty. Even if I'm dressed up and we go out as two gals. She sometimes tells m I am prettier but I say I cannot even be because she is a woman and I can't be that pretty.

[flatlander_48]

I don't think I've ever had that particular fantasy. I've appreciated what some people have worn, but without feelings of actually wanting to be them.

DeeAnn

[AmandaM]

For me, I asked myself these sorts of questions to determine the extent of my gender dysphoria. I determined that I am not TS even if sometimes I feel like I might be. The questions included, would I rather be an ugly old man, or ugly old woman? Answer: man. Would I want to be a woman if I was severely unattractive? Answer: no.

Some might call this line of questions unfair. Ok, So I asked myself: Could I transition knowing I cannot be stealth. Answer: no. If I can't look and feel like a woman, I don't want to. I don't want to be in-between my whole life. I also wouldn't want to look like a "normal" woman if I was semi-unattractive.

So, I had to think about my situation. Why do I have this sometimes overbearing desire to be a beautiful woman? A hot woman. A cheerleader, a French Maid, a surfer girl, a model, etc? Why do I fantasize at times being a hot woman having sex with either men or women, but never as a man doing that? Answer: My CDing and cross-gender feelings are probably a mixture. Some transitory TS feelings but not enough for transition or to self-identify as a woman, and a sexual fetish.

If I could snap my fingers and be a total babe, I would. But that can't happen. What does that leave me with? It leaves me with accepting not ever being a babe and trying a transition, or, finding a way to accept myself as a male. Though it pains me to not try transitioning, I don't have an overwhelming desire to do so. I'm not going to commit suicide or something like that. I am left with trying to reconcile with my male self.

Now that I have this view of myself. Yes, I feel I am not TS, and never was. I almost fooled myself. Some of my maleness has come back. I don't mind somehow any more. Yet, there are times I can't wait to dress and become that total babe in the mirror. So, I do. I guess my only conclusion is, I'm a typical True Transvestite.

[Mykaa]

So ReineD this strikes chord with me. What I feel when I see an attractive women dressed nice. I see her first most times, I think wow shes is really pretty, then I also see what shes wearing and think I really like that. So yes I wont say I dont think about wanting to look like her or emulate her, because a lot of times I do, I know I just dont have the figure for it to be honest, but it wont necessarily change the fact, I'll go emulate what Ive seen or try to. I honestly think that is part of what drives cding for me. I saw a young lady at lunch time friday, really attractive, brunette, petite, probly around 100 lbs, mind you Im not a big guy, Im 135 ish and skinny at 5' 9", so yes I do like small girls. She was wearing a dark high waisted pencil skirt with a tank type top, really nice figure, Rachel from friends type hair, wearing spring type fashion wedge sandals, this is not a look Id try to get for myself, I suppose the thing is I have large doubts whether Id be able to even get the time of day from a girl like that. in her case I saw her then checked out what she was wearing. Sometimes when I see footwear I like or clothing yes I will check that out without trying to be to obvious. So yes men are visually stimulated right? Yes Im a guy, I know what I like. I have at time fantasized what it might be like to be a beautiful woman, but Im not, Im me. Maybe someday I can find a woman who might possibly accept me, thats my hope. I did work on a young ladys car recently, the first time I saw her she was in knee high stiletto black boots and a knee length black skirt with a white top. I love that type look, so I saw her attire first and then her, she wasnt the prettiest woman I ever saw but I loved her style, I wanted to ask her out so badly, being on a new job I didnt think it was a good idea, Im sure we were close in age. I still think about her, I have been single while, can you tell? So yes for me I do like girly girls, I have dated a couple tom boyish types, Im not perfect by far, but If I could have my pick Id pick that type.

[Michelle colson]

If you're asking the question as if seeing an attractive woman wearing cloths I like as a trigger for my wanting to dress or the pink fog as its called, then I would say yes. Seeing a woman I find unattractive and dressed sloppily generally doesn't have the same effect on me though. However seeing say an overweight but otherwise well dressed and made up woman will sometimes bring on thoughts of dressing too, so for me it seems to be about the cloths as much as the physical appearance. If I could magically become a smoking hot 20 something woman I would but in real life when I go out all I really hope for is to blend in or just be perceived as an ugly woman as opposed to a dude in a dress.

[daphne_L]

Reine,
Almost every woman has something attractive about her, at least to me, and often I wish I just had that something and the confidence to carry off woman like they do. Of course, I would love to be a super model, though that covers the range from Giselle to Ashley Graham. But then every woman wishes she was more attractive, even those super models, so I don't feel guilty wishing I could be a more attractive woman.

[ReineD]

Thanks for all your answers so far! :)





So for those of you who long to be the women you see,...
Reine, is this directed at trans people or to the cross dressers who fantasize about "being" the woman they see?

Anyone can answer this thread, although I am specifically asking the CDers who feel they want to "be" a particular woman they see when they see her. You know ... the members who feel or have felt this way, but who do not intend to live as women 24/7.

If you do live as a woman 24/7, are in the process, or are planning to, would you mind saying so in your post, just so I can place all your answers in context.

So to recap, the question is not how you choose to present when you dress (I'm assuming most of you want to present well) but rather, do the type of women that I've described above (the girl in the library and the harried mom) make you long to be them.

[Sarah Louise]

With me I notice the attractive woman first. Usually it's her legs that get's my attention. Then, almost immediately, I notice what she's wearing (which is probably something feminine as her legs are on show). Therefore, it's just as much about admiring her clothes as it is for her female form. Sometimes, I might try and find an outfit that's similar to hers. So in a way, when I dress, I emulating her, but it's just as much as emulating all attractive feminine women rather than her specifically.

In all honesty, I'm not influenced by the woman wearing nondescript clothes or the overweight mum in your example. But then isn't this similar for GG's? If you look at a clothes catalogue, it's full of attractive women modelling the clothes.

[ReineD]

In all honesty, I'm not influenced by the woman wearing nondescript clothes or the overweight mum in your example. But then isn't this similar for GG's? If you look at a clothes catalogue, it's full of attractive women modelling the clothes.

That's true, but it doesn't make the GGs want to be the model I don't think. Also, I should think if a GG isn't in the market for an outfit, seeing a pretty model wearing a dress will not make her run out and buy it. Generally speaking. Still, my favorite type of catalog lately (and thank goodness they're coming out with more and more of them), feature regularly sized models so their customers can see what the clothes really look like. :)

[Sarah Louise]

That's true, but it doesn't make the GGs want to be the model I don't think.

Good point, although for me, I don't want to 'be' the girl. I just want to look attractive and feminine like her. Isn't this the mindset that the catalogue company taps into? The woman browsing it thinks 'that looks good on her'. 'It could look good on me.' Subconsciously at least. I think this is how it works for me anyway!

[Amanda M]

I'm totally with Sarah on this!!

[Zooey]

Still, my favorite type of catalog lately (and thank goodness they're coming out with more and more of them), feature regularly sized models so their customers can see what the clothes really look like. :)

This is why I <3 ModCloth.

[bridget thronton]

I pick at pieces of my presentation, but I want to be me not someone else. I notice what other women are wearing and that influences what I buy for myself. I find something attractive in most of the women I see every day.

[Lily Catherine]

While it's only human to appreciate and strive for beauty, I certainly don't mind appearing nondescript; in fact I probably am most of the time (even when crossdressed, except in photos). Obviously, given the choice I would rather be blessed with exceptionally good facial looks on top of working towards a decent figure. But that isn't my choice to make.

I'd say it's not too far off that, were I a teenaged girl just 5 years ago, I would still be a scrawny high-schooler with a pale face and unkempt hair - neither petite nor fair, and certainly not exactly pretty no matter how her spectacles try to redeem her.

By all means, I'm okay with that; I have but the hand I was dealt with. I don't long to be a supermodel in appearance; neither do I wish to be the women that Reine has described. Although I do particularly look up to the mum and part of her beauty is in the gut and the burp stains. Whether or not she cleans up nicely is, in this light, the least of my concerns.

[ReineD]

Good point, although for me, I don't want to 'be' the girl. I just want to look attractive and feminine like her. Isn't this the mindset that the catalogue company taps into?

I don't think that most women want to look like the models. At all. We know we are different from the women we see in the catalogs. They're just mannequins. Don't forget, as women we don't find them attractive the way that men do. So over time we each develop our likes and dislikes, or a sense of what looks good on us given our body types and what we want that item for. So when we look online or in catalogs, there might be only a few things that appeal to our personal tastes and needs. It really has nothing to do with how the model looks since there are pages and pages of gorgeous clothes these same models wear, that a woman wouldn't buy because it isn't what she's after. For example I'm going on a trip and was looking for a knee length, black duster cardigan, something I can wear over jeans, skirts, leggings, as a beach cover-up, etc. I scoured the net until I found one at my price. My search was for something specific and the way the models looked in the dozens of dusters I saw had nothing to do with it. I saw many gorgeous dusters, all sorts of colors and fabrics, but none except the black one would do, no matter how attractive the models wearing them, because they weren't versatile enough for the clothes I plan to bring (one pair of jeans, one pair of khakis, one long skirt, 3 loose tops, a head scarf, underwear and a bathing suit).

So, back to the thread topic: :)

Your point about not wanting to be the girl - maybe "be the girl" is only one way of putting it and "being triggered" is another. Over my years here there have been many threads and many posts from CDers who said they felt triggered by attractive women who were dressed in clothing that appealed to them (whatever those styles may be). Some people have put it this way as well, "I wanted to be her more than be with her". This sentiment really is common in this forum although of course it doesn't apply to everyone. And so my question was mostly to the CDers who do feel this way ... I wanted to know if they would feel a similar trigger when encountering quite an ordinary girl who isn't dressed in appealing clothes, like the ones I described in my OP.

[AnnieMac]

No I would not

[Tina_gm]

This early in the morning, I have to get ready to go see my mom this afternoon, and ReineD is laying down the gauntlet :nailbiting:. Well, I have one eye open and a half cup of coffee in me so here goes-

I think that most of us when we see an attractive person, be it male or female wish/envy that person's looks to a degree. I know this may only be adding the confusion, or at least mine, but if say there was a magic pill that would not take any transgender feelings from my inner core, but a pill that would alter my appearance as a male to be a better looking male, bigger, more muscular. Or maybe be as good looking as say a Ryan Reynolds, I would still be very tempted to take that pill. Even though it would not help, maybe make the trans thing harder to deal with, as my appearance would be more masculine. Gaining on one side, loosing on the other. I would be equally tempted to take a pill that would allow me to look more feminine, and have the issue be reversed, easier for trans, harder yet to be a male.

I am thinking that most people, cis people as much would have a certain envy over those who are of their gender, and think, I wish I looked like him/her. Not obsess over it, but just a small envy. 'oh how it would be nice to have her shape/hair/voice etc etc. Same goes for the guys I am sure... 'oh how it would be nice to have that full head of hair, muscularity, height, voice. I actually have encountered feeling both ways at a Trace Atkins concert once. I remember standing in line at a vendor before the show, seeing this short cute country girl, the feelings washing over me oh how I wish I was her, then seeing him onstage, he is a very tall man about 6'6" with a very deep voice, and thinking oh how I wish I was him. Hey, they call it genderfluid for a reason...

It is not really feeling down on myself for who I am or how I look, but just an envy I think most people have to some degree to be a better looking person. IRL, I get people sometimes saying to me, (physical shape and ability) not bad for an old guy, I am in fairly decent shape which is a compliment and I take it as one, but inside, my competitive nature wants to be not bad for a 20 year old....

One of the markers I suppose for not being TS would be that if I had to pick between being a very good looking man, or a not so good looking woman (society standards) overweight yadda yadda, I would pick the good looking guy. But I would also choose to be a good looking woman over a not so good looking man. I promise though, I am not obsessed on looks and I am not down on myself for my looks or someone who is considered to be not good looking.

The answer for me in the end is, no, I would not just be any woman to be a woman. If that comes off as superficial then I guess I just have to plead guilty. This forum especially as of late seems to be rather harsh and judgmental (not all, but enough) over opinions like these, and I suppose I may be riling up some by the things I say. I am being honest. IRL, my friends are varied in just about every way. Looks, monetary status, employment, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, political beliefs. I really do not judge people like that. My honesty on here about how I would like to look, take that as however you wish.

[Connie D50]

What a great question I look at all women if I like what they are wearing I smile and dream it was me big, small, tall or short. The key for me is does it look good on them which makes me want to to be wearing it or be them. I'm going to be honest and say when I see a women not trying to look her best I also say why what a waste I sometimes say if i were her I wouldn't wear that. Connie

[Ressie]

No, I wouldn't want to be an unattractive woman. Looking like an average woman might be OK, because there are many average looking women that are attractive (to me).

[Nicolesmyth]

It's not a trigger for me, but more of a study. I don't look at the physical features of the woman but more the style. If I see a women (physically pretty or not) dressed in a particular outfit that I like then I add that to my mental library of looks that I may emulate "when" the desire to dress hits me. Just because I see her in an outfit I like doesn't trigger the desire for me to go home and dress.

[Teresa]

Reine,
If I may start by my own example, when I photographed weddings I stood at the back of the church waiting for the ceremony to finish so I could start my job , I often longed to be one of the bridesmaids in their lovely dresses some may not have been the most attractive girls but the feeling was wanting to be one of the girls, I guess for people to comment on how pretty they looked. So maybe there's more to it than wanting to be a stunning one off and wear what's she's wearing.

If you turn the situation around what makes an attractive guy to women ? Using your description not many girls would be attracted to your example in guy mode, unclean, unshaven, overweight and wearing clothes that could have been taken from a scarecrow.

We all have a mental picture of our perfect woman or man , if I were a woman I'd like to look like whoever takes my fancy, I'm sure women must at times think if I were a man I'd like his body, or again whatever attracts you in a man. At times girls do crossdress in male clothes if they happen to think their male partner looks good in them. I've had instances where a GF has taken a shirt or jacket because they happen to like me in them.

Going back to your example again you do see women dressed as you describe and they have partners that are perfectly happy with them, they love them to pieces, some of us may shake our heads but that's life !

Most CDers are a fickle lot, we have to deal with the normal male to female attraction and then, there's the part of us that has it's own needs , the problem is those needs tend to change as our CDing evolves, I have French Maid outfits which I don't wear much now, my CDing has evolved with being more open and going out socially, now I'm trying to put together nice outfits that a GG is likely to wear in the same circumstances. It's really great when a GG does make a genuine comment on how nice you look.

Do I want to look like your examples, the answer is no but I try not to look like that in male mode anyway, in female mode I try and wear things that make me look good for my shape. Maybe I'm lucky that my size and shape works OK in either mode. Look back at some of the threads of members who do struggle with their size and shape I feel as sorry for them as I do to the GGs in your description, being female to them is like a mountain to climb,sadly some give up and resign themselves to the closet when they're desperate to be out and about.

[Sarah Doepner]

I puzzled over this for a while and I'm still not sure. However I thought about seeing a Guy at the library wearing baggy shorts, dirty tee, needing a shave and to comb his hair. That doesn't inspire me either, but I know there have been times I've gone to the store looking like the dogs breakfast. I don't enjoy that, but sometimes you do what you need to do and not worry about what others think. Those folks that make an impression on me are those who have taken a little time to balance being comfortable and looking like they are just a little concerned over their appearance.

I'm too old and too big to ever achieve the glamour look of models, but I can achieve something that works for me. So I while I can appreciate the situation that may have put the girl in the library or harried mom in the store looking not their best, I don't think I would strive for that look, nor would it be something that would make me want to add that look to my closet.

[Jenniferathome]

... but it doesn't make the GGs want to be the model I don't think. Also, I should think if a GG isn't in the market for an outfit, seeing a pretty model wearing a dress will not make her run out and buy it. Generally speaking. Still, my favorite type of catalog lately (and thank goodness they're coming out with more and more of them), feature regularly sized models so their customers can see what the clothes really look like. :)

Reine, I think this is what differentiates the cross dressers from the rest of the market. More incredibly, we're guys who see an outfit on a skinny model and then think it will look good on us! And I agree with you on the "real women" catalogs.


This is why I <3 ModCloth.

ModCloth is awesome! Rent the Runway also has posts of actual wearers of the clothes.


...So over time we each develop our likes and dislikes, or a sense of what looks good on us given our body types and what we want that item for. So when we look online or in catalogs, there might be only a few things that appeal to our personal tastes and needs. ...

..."I wanted to be her more than be with her". This sentiment really is common in this forum although of course it doesn't apply to everyone. And so my question was mostly to the CDers who do feel this way ... I wanted to know if they would feel a similar trigger when encountering quite an ordinary girl who isn't dressed in appealing clothes, like the ones I described in my OP.

Your first point is huge: knowing what looks good on you vs just wanting to buy another clothing trophy. I finally understand what my wife means when she says she's been "looking for this for months."

On your second point, I've read that here a lot as well. The answers don't surprise me but at least they are honest.


...I'm going to be honest and say when I see a women not trying to look her best I also say why what a waste I sometimes say if i were her I wouldn't wear that. ...

I think this is a really common position here as well. Generally, we cross dressers project our desire to go out on women who ARE out. For most cross dressers, being out is a rare privilege so we feel the need to make the most of it.

[~Joanne~]

I won't lie, It doesn't matter if she is a knock out or not, it's all about the clothes she is wearing especially if she is wearing hosiery and heels because she wanted to look her best and not go with the flow of things. Does it trigger me wanting to dress? yes it does. does it make me want to go buy what she is wearing? not really but I guess that all depends on if it is purple or not lol

I become more envious of her freedom more than anything else though. Women have total freedom to dress as they please without a word being said to the contrary and as much as we say we have the same freedom we all know that's not totally true no matter how many times we say it is. I would love to walk through a mall or somewhere dressed really nicely and not a word or whisper being said but that is highly unlikely to ever happen.

[Melissa Rose]

Reine, this is an excellent question.

About 4 years ago and slightly before ramping up our respective transitions, I was out with another member of this forum (Badtranny) and she posed a very similar question. There was a large group of women ranging from pretty and well dressed to more "plain" and overweight as compared to the others and less attractive by most societal standards. She asked would you still be one of those women versus one of the more attractive ones. We both answered without hesitation, yes. While it would be nice and desirable to be one of the more pretty women, all we wanted was to be a woman. It was not about the appearance but the essence of being a woman even if far from societal measures of beauty and attractiveness.

For the past three years I have been working in nearly or all female (me included) office work environments. What I enjoy and cherish the most is not being able to "dress up", but the friendships and sense of belonging. In my experiences, friendship between women and friendships between men have a different character. I am blessed with some awesome close friends, and it is our closeness and openness that I value the most. A few know I am trans and others do not, but from what I can tell, it has not made a difference. This is just one example where it is not about looking feminine or appearing as a woman, pretty or not, but about being a woman even if it comes with being far from the feminine ideal. Yes, I would love to be pretty and attractive, but it is (was) not a requirement.

[Amy Lynn3]

Reine, I want to be you in every way. You are smart, good looking and about the right age, so what is not to like about you ? I think for the average cder we have in mind the woman we want to dress/be. I think our thoughts gravitate to the more attractive women, for the most part, because they take a little extra time to look their best. That is why all the pictures of cder's here try to look the best they possibly can. Dare I ask, why should we want to look frumpy ?

Now, about the frumpy dressed gg's. I look at every woman and attempt to find something about her that I like. For example, she may have a nice figure, but her hair looks like a wind storm did it up for her. So I would love to have her figure, but not her hair. Her feet and shoes may be things I adore, but not the complete woman for example. I see some women with a bigger bottom and the rest of her should have stayed at home. However, I see VPL's on her and I like that.

Without going on forever I will conclude, by saying. I would love to be the runway model and could wear her cloths, but reality is always in my mine, so I know I could only look like the average gal on the street and I would be satisfied with that.

[ReineD]

Thanks for all your answers everyone! :) (And thanks for the compliment Amy Lynn) :o


I promise though, I am not obsessed on looks and I am not down on myself for my looks or someone who is considered to be not good looking.

No Gendermutt, I didn't take it that way at all. I just wondered if nondescript women would cause this feeling as much as women that you and other CDers have found appealing. Hope you didn't take the fact that I quoted you personally. I just saw your words and remembered all the other similar posts, and so I decided to ask the question.



If you turn the situation around what makes an attractive guy to women ? Using your description not many girls would be attracted to your example in guy mode, unclean, unshaven, overweight and wearing clothes that could have been taken from a scarecrow.

But we can't turn the situation around, because when women see an attractive guy, his appearance doesn't trigger a desire to go home present as a male. So my question is not about who GGs/GMs/CDs/etc are attracted to but rather, do CDers get as strong an urge to dress when they see a run-of-the-mill, nondescript, or rather unappealing female like they do when they see a GG who particularly appeals to them.

[Marguarite]

Reine,
My first thought is no matter what the GG looked like, I could work with that. I'd trade bodies, become the woman and work towards
what I would want to look like. After all, what I am working with now is not great and I will never be where I want to be.
I found it interesting that the only response that I agreed the most with, was Melissa Rose, who is trans. I have not admitted to myself
exactly where in this diverse community my feelings align.

[Katie83]

Interesting question. For me it is more about the style rather than the attractiveness. No, I wouldn't want to be the unattractive, overweight frumpy mother in baggy burp stained clothes. The issue I have with that image is the choice of style and lack of effort for their appearance. Everyone can make the best of what they have male or female. As a male there are things I wouldn't choose about my features, loosing my hair and my nose to name a couple. But these things don't mean I have to over eat, where dirty clothes and look generally messy all the time. Everyone has the option to make the best of what they have. So, I wouldn't be the flustered mother, I would want to be the neat, well dressed mother. Attractiveness doesn't come into it for me.

[Michelle colson]

Reine, I know you asked about visual stimuli but I had a thought on audio as well. I work in a large building with a high percentage of young women in it. My office sits off a main corridor that is hard tile. As a result I hear the sound of heels clicking by off and on all day. There are days I hear that sound and it puts me in a cding mood just as much as seeing a young lady in a dress would.

[Sara Jessica]

Reine, this is an excellent question.

I couldn't agree more!!!


There was a large group of women ranging from pretty and well dressed to more "plain" and overweight as compared to the others and less attractive by most societal standards. She asked would you still be one of those women versus one of the more attractive ones. We both answered without hesitation, yes. While it would be nice and desirable to be one of the more pretty women, all we wanted was to be a woman. It was not about the appearance but the essence of being a woman even if far from societal measures of beauty and attractiveness.

This is a huge litmus test if one is being honest with themselves about how their own degree of trans. Melissa is wise and you are as well to share this example with everyone.

You are fortunate to find such fulfillment in what looks like a complete socialization as a female. That is worth more than looks any day of the week.

My heart aches for women who would ridicule their own body image. I'd trade for their "flaws" any day of the week, particularly if it came with the opportunity to grow up socialized as a female. To me, that loss is more important than the thought of a forty-something transition. Flawed logic, I suppose. I'm focusing on what I cannot have instead of what the future could hold. Still, I have come to the conclusion that an alternate future as a female when compared with the one I am currently faced with is not all that desirable at this time, partially because of those things I can never experience.


Interesting question. For me it is more about the style rather than the attractiveness. No, I wouldn't want to be the unattractive, overweight frumpy mother in baggy burp stained clothes. The issue I have with that image is the choice of style and lack of effort for their appearance. Everyone can make the best of what they have male or female...So, I wouldn't be the flustered mother, I would want to be the neat, well dressed mother. Attractiveness doesn't come into it for me.

Nicely said Katie. I emphasized the "female" in your discussion and couldn't agree with you more.

Thing is, changing what we were dealt with is not particularly easy. It isn't that one might have a less than ideal body shape or attractiveness when it comes of self-image. Instead, those things are not easily modified and maintained.

It isn't simply about losing weight. There are things when it comes to frame, build, etc. that just cannot be changed. Kind of like in our world how we often struggle against frame, build, height, foot size, hand size, etc. And women are less likely to resort to padding it up or squeezing it down as many in our community are inclined to do in order to meet a perceived ideal.

Regardless, there is something to be said about having a sense of style. It isn't all that time consuming once you get over the learning curve and it can be embraced by anyone. It certainly is noticed when done well!!!

[Ressie]

But we can't turn the situation around, because when women see an attractive guy, his appearance doesn't trigger a desire to go home present as a male. So my question is not about who GGs/GMs/CDs/etc are attracted to but rather, do CDers get as strong an urge to dress when they see a run-of-the-mill, nondescript, or rather unappealing female like they do when they see a GG who particularly appeals to them.

Actually, seeing a woman dressed in public has never been a trigger for me to go home and cross dress. I never even knew that other crossdressers dressed for that reason. :confused:

[Rhonda Jean]

I don't think I want to "be" the woman in the way you're asking. I certainly see women I'm a bit jealous of all the time. That has to do with more than just their clothes. As to the less attractive or not so well dressed, I don't want to "be" to any degree.

I do take style/dress/makeup cues from women I find attractive. More so with hairstyles, back when I had long hair. Second to hair would be makeup. Clothes come in third, because I basically know what looks good on me, and I can't get away with everything I find attractive on another woman. I often go off on little tangents. A couple of years ago I was obsessed with finding a long summer dress. I had seen several women in them, and they looked so comfortable and effortless. I was on a mission to find one equally effortless for myself. I quickly found out that it was harder to find a long dress that I looked good in than it was most anything I'd ever worn. I finally found a couple that were suitable, but not to the level I expected. They were not forgiving at all!!! This little obsession had little or nothing to do with wanting to "be " the women I saw wearing them.

Back in the dark ages when I had hair down to the middle of my back and I was married, we had a neighbor about our age who had hair about the same length as mine. She always wore her hair over one shoulder. I thought her hair was gorgeous, and I loved the way that showed it off. I started wearing my hair that way all the time, until my (then accepting) wife laid down the law. She knew who I was emulating, and that didn't fly. Still, I didn't want to "be" her at all.

[Melissa Rose]

You are fortunate to find such fulfillment in what looks like a complete socialization as a female. That is worth more than looks any day of the week.
Sara, you are beyond 100% correct and I could not have said it any better. The day I knew I "made it" was when a female co-worker asked to share a room for an upcoming overnight company function. That meant so much more than any prior or subsequent comments such as that's a pretty dress, love your hair or you look especially great today. I love a compliment as much as the next person, but feeling accepted means so much more and it continues to happen. So if you are finding yourself more or solely interested in the gender expression aspects (i.e., external) and how that makes you feel, you are probably more on the cross dresser side of the trans spectrum. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but, as Sara mentioned, it is a good litmus test IMHO.

This has been a great thread.

[Taylor186]

do the type of women that I've described above (the girl in the library and the harried mom) make you long to be them.


Like Ronda, I don't want to 'be' the attractive woman I see who is dressed stylishly, but I might think I wish I looked more like that person or I might wish I could rock that outfit the way she rocks that outfit. I would need to know much more about someone before I would actually think about trading places, not that that is possible.

And to answer your question specifically, I never long to be or emulate a plain or unattractive woman, (or man for that matter).

As Meredith I would not want to be a woman if I didn't pass completely and like GM I don't want to be a women just to be a woman.

[Georgette_USA]

Reine

Liked your question. Put me in the fully transitioned to woman for 40 years now.

When I was young and thinking on all this. I would have traded places with either woman. I have always felt I was a plain looking woman, but that is what RLE is for, to see if you can pass as just another woman. But others that have seen older pics, and one that actually knew and saw me back then, they claim I was pretty don't see it myself.

Thru my own personal problems, ended up that overweight and plain clothes woman. I have lost some weight, and have changed my clothing styles. Like that some places that deal with "PLUS" size woman, are using others to show that WE come in all sizes and shapes.

Never was big on the idea of being a mother, but if that could happen I could live with that also.

[Tina_gm]

ReineD, I know you are not singling me out. I wanted to give an honest answer. I do also want people to know I am not a superficial scumbag. I love the thought provoking threads. I also try to keep it real, and not just come up with a feel good answer too.

I remember a co worker saying to me shortly after I got remarried well, you are married now, you can let it all go, no need to have to try to impress anyone. I replied nope, that's not me. I m always going to be dressed decent, well groomed, and not eat like a slob. I would rather be dead than give up. It's about me feeling good about me. I see a lot on here say they don't put much effort in guy mode. I do. I really don't think it's conceited to want to look decent. It saddens me to see fewer and fewer young people give effort to their appearance. I hope it's a trend that will reverse itself. Back in the 80s, even the guys spent a lot of time getting ready to go out. There were quite a few of us who were fire hazards with hair spray lol. I miss those days.

[Michelle (Oz)]

Saw a mid teens girl and her friend while having lunch with a GG friend last Friday. She was the epitome of what I'd want to have looked like if I was young and female - long blond hair, slim sporty figure in a simple but stylish dress. Envious? Yep, 3 envies actually - age, looks and female. "Aren't we all" was my friend's response. In both our cases, admiration and envy are quite different to wanting to be her.

Yes, looks are important to me and guide my dressing style. I am happy being the female I see in the mirror.

[Lori Kurtz]

The fetish aspect of crossdressing is the biggest part of what it was all about for me. I loved being a curvaceous woman who was proud of her body and wore tight short skirts and tight tops to show it off. Seeing any such woman was a trigger for me. As a male, I found that the visual stimulus would fill me with desire to have her (as Mother Nature intended). But as a crossdresser, I would also experience the desire to look like that, and to make other men feel the way she made me feel (and I don't know what the heck Mother Nature thinks of that). Now that I'm into my 70s, I still enjoy the appearance of women (and men who make themselves look like women), but I am not likely to become an active dresser again, because I can't possibly make myself look the way I used to. In many cases, women my own age or close to it can be attractive, but somehow, the sexual element of the attraction isn't so strong, and fails to fuel my crossdressing urges. Likewise for otherwise average-looking women of any age. I might find such a woman attractive in a way, based on personality or sense of humor or whatever, but there is no powerful sexual charge, and no triggering of an urge to dress up. I still have crossdressing fantasies, but at this point that's all in my head (and ... well, in another part of my body too), but it doesn't involve any actual feminine garments.

[LelaK]

A pretty face (with hair instead of a bald head) would seem to be enough to satisfy me, since I could then deal with the rest, i.e. dressing and reshaping. Pimples wouldn't be a big deal, if they didn't spoil the prettiness. It would only be to please myself, not others (Our bodies are like our vehicles; we often want them to look nice). I think I want to look like a loving person.

UPDATE:
I just noticed Reine followed up saying,
So my question is not about who GGs/GMs/CDs/etc are attracted to but rather, do CDers get as strong an urge to dress when they see a run-of-the-mill, nondescript, or rather unappealing female like they do when they see a GG who particularly appeals to them.

Seeing an attractive woman sometimes gives me the thought of looking like her, but it doesn't seem to give me the urge to dress. Opportunity is what seems to give me that urge, meaning mainly when I'm home in my room. If I were with an accepting person or persons, I'd probably get the urge to dress then as well.

[heatherdress]

I am a crossdresser. I never long to be anyone else. I enjoy being me. But I do try to look attractive and sexy when I dress. I do not relate to simply wanting to be or look unattractive or overweight or frumpy just to be female. It would not interest me in any way. Why would anyone want to look unattractive?

[Teresa]

Heatherdress,
You raise the old question of wanting to be attractive and sexy but who to ?

As I said in my previous reply we may be being unkind to people aren't as attractive and maybe don't make the same effort, for various reasons they don't feel good about themselves, that's something most CDers don't experience, but these people often have partners that still love them and are happy as they are .

[Jenniferathome]

Reine, when I see an attractive woman, I notice her because I am a dude and I am seeing her, not her clothes.

I do not want to "be" her, ever. IF that attractive woman is well dressed and her style nears mine, I will take notice of how she put some outfit together. Now, a great outfit is a great outfit regardless of the attractiveness of the wearer. That's true on models (I don't think all are attractive), just way too many disaffected stares or "hereon-chique" looks and it's equally true of women in public. I will notice a great outfit and try to make a mental note if I have similar things I can put together.

[EllieOPKS]

I think this is an absurd question. No offense intended but seriously, who would look at a train wreck and say I would like to emulate that. Why anyone, male or female would go out in public like that baffles me other than they just don't care. A passing glance is all that its worth. I accept anybody on face value, if they are good with that then that's all that matters but I would never be that way in drab or drag. From my own personal aspect I see it much like I look at a pro golfer that spends more time drunk in the spotlight than he does sober. He has a chance to live my dream and is blowing it.

[NicoleScott]

Easy answer for me. I'm a male-identity crossdresser even when transformed, so I never wish to be female, no matter how attractive. I've seen plenty of women I would like to "be", but only in my fantasies or for the duration of a dressup session. Whether cd or gg, who wouldn't prefer attractive over unattractive?
Like the reincarnation and do-over threads, the answer to the question should give a strong clue to who/what we are. Would you choose to be born female without conditions? Unattractive, heavy, under oppressive cultures?

[Cheryl T]

Well, for me it would be strictly the attractive woman that I see I would like to be. When I see anyone totally disheveled, in those baggy sweats and looking like they could care less I always think "why don't you have any self-pride"??
It's not that I would have a problem with being overweight (I'm plus sized as it is), but not being presentable is another thing. I'm not saying you have to be in runway makeup and dressed to the nines, but at least show that you care about how you look. Brush your hair, save the sweats for your backyard, not the mall and this goes for guys as well as girls. The males with their pants below their crack ... c'mon, no one wants to see your underwear.

So yes, I think of looking like someone that is attractive, but even if I was female and not Heidi Klum I'd still want to be proud of how I look.

[ReineD]

I think this is an absurd question. No offense intended but seriously, who would look at a train wreck and say I would like to emulate that. Why anyone, male or female would go out in public like that baffles me other than they just don't care.

But that's not the question though. The question is NOT "who would you like to look like or dress similar to". The question is, "if seeing an appealing woman triggers a desire to dress, then would seeing an unappealing woman trigger the desire too".

[Kate Simmons]

I think for the most part most guys only see the "glitter" part of womanhood. How a gal looks when she's dressed to the 9's but that is definitely not the "norm" or even reality. Of course gals like to look nice but when, as you say, they are chasing their kids around all day taking care of them, every hair will definitely not be in place. Even so gals get satisfaction from motherhood and caring for their families. That's the kind of person I appreciate, appearance notwithstanding. That is what real women do. :battingeyelashes::)

[portia513]

I am the SO of a CD. He told me that he likes to dress because he can see and touch what he loves about women whenever he wants to. I dress for him. He buys me sexy lingerie and I wear it for him. It excites him sexually very much. My question: If you have someone who is willing to dress for you and pleasure you sexually, could the desire to dress go away?

[Jenniferathome]

No Portia, cross dressing is really not about you. It does not go away. It may quite down but never disappears. What he told you might be partially true but I suspect there is more.

Can you share what he likes to wear? Is it just lingerie? Or is there more?

I'll add that after being on this forum for about 5 years, I recall exactly 1 person who announced they were "quitting." 1. Others have buried the need for a time, purged and they always report that the need comes back. One's sex life and a spouse are not related to cross dressing. Portia, you can absolutely satisfy him sexually. That will not be a substitute for cross dressing although I'm sure he'll be appreciative.

[NicoleScott]

Portia, Jenniferathome is correct for herself (of course) but not for everyone. I have pondered your question for decades, and I have concluded that, yes, my desires could be satisfied by a willing partner, if such a person existed. I think it depends on what drives the crossdressing. I doubt that CDers driven by an internal feminine identity and dress to express that femininity would be satisfied by a partner. Many CDers, like me, are driven by fetishes. There are things that women wear that, even by themselves, arouse me. Two in particular have that power, and a few others just add to that excitement. By complete, head to toe, over-the-top transformation, I can combine all the things that arouse me for maximum pleasure during a dressup session. It would be asking a lot for a woman to do for me what I do for myself (assuming, of course, that the rest of the relationship is good). If your SO has a single fetish object (for example, lace-top stockings), maybe your accommodation could curb his dressing. But you never know when it might no longer be enough, and more is required of you. And at some point you might (rightfully so) feel that his arousal is caused by the stockings, not you.
When I said "if such a person existed" I was serious. I don't think she exists. So my "yes" answer is remotely possible but very unlikely.
My wife knows but isn't interested in participating, so I do my thing and she's OK with it. She knows what I like, has seen me made up and dressed and seen my pics, but it's way beyond her comfort level. Oh, how I would love it if she WANTED TO, but she doesn't. It works for us.
I suspect Jenniferathome is correct for the vast majority of CDers. Maybe a few of us could be satisfied by a dressing partner, but it could be a slippery slope you don't need to start down. Wearing what he likes is great if you're comfortable with it, but expecting it to replace his desire to crossdress is unrealistic. Better to let him do his thing, privately if necessary.

[Alice Torn]

I am only attracted to a small perdentage of GG's. I find many cute, pretty, nice looking. But, only rarely do I see one , that is dressed in the styles i adore, carries herself a certain way, and is super tall, and great legs. I was in Vancouver BC about 6 years ago at the airport, and heard heels clicking, and such an older, great shape for her age, lady in a skirt suit, hose and heels passed by. She worked there. She was over six feet tall, and i am six feet six! My heart skipped a beat. Such a GG is rare, and even rarer, dressed in a style I am attracted to. I emulate such GGs . I do not dress up as GGs, who a re unkempt, sloppy, and do not try to better themselves.

[Tina_gm]

I am the SO of a CD. He told me that he likes to dress because he can see and touch what he loves about women whenever he wants to. I dress for him. He buys me sexy lingerie and I wear it for him. It excites him sexually very much. My question: If you have someone who is willing to dress for you and pleasure you sexually, could the desire to dress go away?For me, dressing is not sexual. If my wife wears something which attracts me, arouses me, it has no bearing whatsoever on my dressing or my desire either way. I would simply be aroused by what my wife was doing.

I think if anything, for those who have much about their CDing that is fetish related, it would create a bigger desire to dress before it would lower it. But since I am not one who dresses for sexual reasons, I am not the best person to ask of others. It would just seem to me that if the dressing was sexual in nature, it would likely enhance the desire. For me personally, it has no bearing.

[Lori Kurtz]

My question: If you have someone who is willing to dress for you and pleasure you sexually, could the desire to dress go away?

There are probably as many answers to that question as there are crossdressers, Portia. In my case, yes. Sort of. I had a wonderfully satisfying sex life with my second wife. She was nearly always, as they say, "hot to trot," except for a rough patch around menopause time. My desire to dress never completely went away, but she kept me busy enough so that I was never overpowered by that desire. Even during those peri-menopausal years, I was able to keep myself away from any dressup activities, so that I never had to cross that line of being dishonest with her. I know that won't necessarily work for all of us, and I know that my good luck in finding a woman with such a strong libido was an important factor for me. If you're comfortable with what you're doing with you're SO, and if you're confident that he's being honest with you, then I say you (and he) should be grateful for the life that you're enjoying together. Best wishes to you both.

[Kate T]

But we can't turn the situation around, because when women see an attractive guy, his appearance doesn't trigger a desire to go home present as a male. So my question is not about who GGs/GMs/CDs/etc are attracted to but rather, do CDers get as strong an urge to dress when they see a run-of-the-mill, nondescript, or rather unappealing female like they do when they see a GG who particularly appeals to them.

You can sort of turn the question around but it would require much larger number of FTM CD / TS than we have on these boards. We know they exist though, they just don't do forums that much.

I'm not sure where the original question is aiming at / originating and I don't really qualify to answer being female identified and transitioned. FWIW though if you want me to throw a spanner in the works, the women I am attracted to (I am female attracted WRT sexuality) are NOT necessarily those I would emulate in style / fashion / presentation choice or might make me want to buy that dress / skirt / makeup they are wearing.

- - - Updated - - -


I am the SO of a CD. He told me that he likes to dress because he can see and touch what he loves about women whenever he wants to. I dress for him. He buys me sexy lingerie and I wear it for him. It excites him sexually very much. My question: If you have someone who is willing to dress for you and pleasure you sexually, could the desire to dress go away?

No offence Portia but why would you want too?? I get it that you just want to make him happy but relationships are a 2 way street. Hopefully he loves you for who you are, not because you are dressed up in some lingerie etc. Everyone likes to to have some nice lingerie / clothes etc. and to really get dressed to the nines at times but does it always have to be about pleasuring a man? I would hope that it makes you happy and he is happy that it makes you happy. But then again I'm also one of those real prudes who thinks that physical intimacy should be reserved for that truly special relationship and bonding between 2 individuals in a committed relationship :P

[Georgette_USA]

You can sort of turn the question around but it would require much larger number of FTM CD / TS than we have on these boards. We know they exist though, they just don't do forums that much.


Has anyone met a true FtM CD. I knew a woman many years ago, who might have been such, but we never talked about it. Only dressed as a female for work.
Do know quite a few FtM TS, but never discussed the idea of where their inspiration came from.

[OCCarly]

But that's not the question though. The question is NOT "who would you like to look like or dress similar to". The question is, "if seeing an appealing woman triggers a desire to dress, then would seeing an unappealing woman trigger a desire as too".

One of the things that led me to realize that deep down inside, I really am a girl, is simply this -- every time I see an unappealing woman, I always think about all the ways I could improve on her looks, dress, and presentation if I were living inside her body.

[Zooey]

One of the things that led me to realize that deep down inside, I really am a girl, is simply this -- every time I see an unappealing woman, I always think about all the ways I could improve on her looks, dress, and presentation if I were living inside her body.

260997

Umm... I'm honestly... Hmm...

[Nashmau]

^

i 2nd Zooeys post.... i dont even know what to say....

[Kate T]

Carly

Not sure you realise exactly how many women, cis or trans, find your last post judgemental and offensive.

Pretty much all of us.

[Melissa Rose]

One of the things that led me to realize that deep down inside, I really am a girl, is simply this -- every time I see an unappealing woman, I always think about all the ways I could improve on her looks, dress, and presentation if I were living inside her body.
Wow!? Oh, Wow. Ummmm.....speechless except for Wow!?

This is going to derail this thread.

[grace7777]

Someday I would like to live as a women full time. Right now, I present as male for work situations, but pretty well otherwise live as a woman. In the future I would like to do HRT and maybe GRS, and to be legally a woman. Having said that, my desire to present as a woman has nothing to do with whether the woman is appealing or unappealing.

I will see women dressed and get ideas as to how I will dress in the future. There will be times that I might see someone dressed in a nice outfit, but I know that it will not look good on me. Ultimately how I dress is what I feel makes me look good, or what gives me a good feeling about myself.

I have no desire to be someone else, I just want to be me.

[ReineD]

I'm not sure where the original question is aiming at / originating and I don't really qualify to answer being female identified and transitioned.

Right, I didn't want to prevent anyone from posting in here if they wanted to, but my question as explained earlier is aimed at CDers more than TSs. You'll appreciate that generally, CDers and TSs present as women for different reasons and I don't expect TSs to be triggered by anything, other than a deeply felt and long standing knowledge that they are indeed women and not men, even if it took awhile to peel back the layers.



One of the things that led me to realize that deep down inside, I really am a girl, is simply this -- every time I see an unappealing woman, I always think about all the ways I could improve on her looks, dress, and presentation if I were living inside her body.

To OCCarly Sexy Thang (the words on your avatar), forgive me for being blunt but you have a lot to learn about women. There are a great many things they feel are more important than looks or being sexy, contrary to what you might think. Their lives are rich with creativity, intelligence, work, study, family, loves, children, friends, spirituality, strength, giving, receiving, thoughtfulness, involvement in social issues, etc, none of which require being sexy or dressing like a fashion plate. And do you know why this is? Because they know that the people who matter see them for the women of substance that they are more than just a pretty thing to look at.

[Krisi]

Reine, your post is along the lines of something I have posted from time to time. We have a lot of crossdressers wishing they were women, but they all seem to wish they were some "hot" young chick they saw in a bar, on TV or in a catalog somewhere. In reality, most women in the world are not hot young chicks. I wonder if they would still want to be a woman if that meant being a woman in a poverty ridden third world country. In an Islamic ruled country? A homely or overweight woman in America? How about an abused woman?

Crossdressing is fun as a hobby, but most of us are pretty well off compared to the entire population of the planet.

[audreyinalbany]

This is probably germaine to the topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YBiS4GyyjM

[Meghan4now]

Well, first, as a CD and not TS, image may be a bit more important to me. Vanity, narcissism, stereotyping? Perhaps, but I think only mildly if so. When I look at a guy with straggling greasy hair, sweats and a mustard stained shirt, I don't say to my self "man that's a look to strive for". If I see Ben Affleck or George Clooney in tux, I might be inspired to copy the look. So I don't see the issue. As a GG, are you inspired by Rosanne Barr, or by Sophia Loren? And it doesn't have to be age or weight specific. Lots of great looking people out there. Many who don't fit an ideal body image, but 1 do the best with what they've got and 2 are pleasant and confident.

Yes, I am inspired by good looking women, not careless or nasty old hags. Somewhere in between I can be inspired as well, depending on the situation, and the specific character or feature I'm observing.

P.S. some of the characteristics that seem unattractive are also characteristics that coincide with poorer health. It is natural to prefer to be youthful and healthy.

P.P.S.
I was so inspired by a friend when she was showing off her new "race car red" polish, I had to go get some. Very average 50yo mom, not outstanding. But I saw her nails, and yeah, I wanted to do mine the same.

[JamieG]

In my case, it is not an attractive woman that triggers my desire to dress, it is an attractively-dressed woman. If I see a very attractive woman wearing something I don't care for (e.g., capri pants), it does not trigger my desire to my dress. However, I might still look at her, and appreciate her looks the way other men do. If I see a rather plain woman wearing something I like (e.g., patterned tights and gorgeous boots) then it triggers my desire to try on a similar outfit, but also makes her more attractive in my eyes. In no case do I want to be the woman who I am seeing. I am happy to be me, I just wish I could be a more feminine me.

[Taylor186]

The question is, "if seeing an appealing woman triggers a desire to dress, then would seeing an unappealing woman trigger the desire too".

Sorry, I misunderstood the original question. I'm not triggered to crossdress by seeing an attractively dressed or otherwise woman. I would say I'm often, but not always, triggered by stress but seeing an attractively dressed woman is not the least bit stressful for me.

[LelaK]

I am the SO of a CD. He told me that he likes to dress because he can see and touch what he loves about women whenever he wants to. I dress for him. He buys me sexy lingerie and I wear it for him. It excites him sexually very much. My question: If you have someone who is willing to dress for you and pleasure you sexually, could the desire to dress go away?
I had a GF last year whom I was with almost constantly for about 8 months. She didn't like me to crossdress and I found that I didn't mind not doing it while we were together. The intimacy was more important to me, although she didn't dress as sexy as I would have liked. It took a couple months after breaking up for me to start dressing again. Now I'm seeking a better GF. Having a GF is more important to me than is dressing.

PS, I see nothing insulting about Carly's statement. To be objective, most of us are not as attractive as we could be, and there's nothing wrong with imagining how others or oneself could be more attractive. The same applies to personality, behavior etc. There's nothing wrong with thinking about how others could possibly improve themselves in those respects too. Or is society getting to the point that everyone is expected to not think about such things even privately, because it seems insulting? It's not insulting and that's the Thought Police popping up again. It's entirely honorable and natural to think about improving things. And it's everyone's right to have freedom of thought and of speech.

[PrivateXDresser]

Yes, in a heartbeat. My desire to CD is that I love the look and feel of the outfits and material. My fetish has strictly been with lingerie ... no shoes, wigs or make-up. If I had a woman who did as you said, the underwear would all go in storage. You never know if you might need it again! : )

[Laura912]

Reine, a thought occurred to me while playing in the shop. If the only way to become female would be to either of the two women in your original question, then my answer would be "yes." At least with a little effort, one could try to look a little better, but regardless, one would still be female. However, that answer may be more of the type some who are TS might give. Today that could easily be me. Would seeing either of your candidates cause me to want to dress? Who knows, because I don't even know what the triggers always are. I do know that there would be some thoughts about how they could improve their image a little.

[Lorileah]

I think Carly is incredibly honest. It wasn't an insult. Many people do that to me just trying in their minds to help. " you need bigger boobs" " that dress is too young for you" and the classic " you know women don't sit (stand move talk smile laugh dance ) like that. And yet..I women do what I do.

I also hear women tell other women the same thing.

Anyone who says they want to emulate someone they find unattractive are not being truthful. We all want to look as good as we can

[Joyce Swindell]

There are times that I feel one way and other times I feel the other way. It isn't a focus on attractive verses unattractive...everyone would prefer attractive. Sometimes being an unattractive female in a pretty dress would be fine...just being able to wear that dress is all I would like....without judgement from others.

[JenniferR771]

Good question , Riene. For me, I am inspired particularly by the attractive women I was acquainted with in my younger years. Usually women I did not date, but wished I could.
Men are highly visual. We like to look at attractive feminine women, (they know that). I would like to look like some attractive girlfriends of my friends, and some attractive secretary girls that dressed nicely for the office environment, from when I was 25. Models in catalogs--yes. Bridesmaids--yes again. Pretty hair, cute outfits, warm personalities nice makeup. I stared. I want to look like them, when they were looking their best. I just want to wear the clothes, shoes, hair and makeup of attractive women that I have seen. I have never bought women's jeans, nor even slacks. Not interested in dressing like the busy utilitarian women I see every day. However, I get a generalized warm glow when I am looking my best with a cute wig and dress. See avatar for one of my favorite outfits.

[Zooey]

I think Carly is incredibly honest. It wasn't an insult. Many people do that to me just trying in their minds to help.

There is a huge difference between acknowledging that women judge other women and my interpretation of what Carly said. We do judge - everybody does - but I don't know a single woman whose identity as a woman was ever defined by judging other women. Most of the women I'm close with (including myself) feel pretty damn guilty about how often we do it, usually in order to feel better about ourselves, because we were judged too. By other women, yes, but mostly by men.

I'm sorry if this is over the line, but IMO if you ever want to reassure a woman that MtF CDs are unquestionably men, just show them this thread (or the dozens with similar content).

Last I read, Carly is in therapy, considering transition, and hoping to be on HRT soon. I would strongly advise them to stick with the therapy and not rush into HRT, because I genuinely worry for anyone going into transition with such surface-level ideas of the worst aspects of womanhood defining, or even contributing significantly, to their identity as such. Just my $0.02.

[Melissa Rose]

...I don't know a single woman whose identity as a woman was ever defined by judging other women.
Thank you. Those were the words I was searching for to sum up my opinion as to how superficial and misguided Carly's statement came across. Hell, yes, we all judge to various degrees. I am guilty of thinking on occasion "She would be more attractive if....". It is the connection of the judging of those who do not meet your standards and it making you a girl deep inside because of it that is the biggest problem for me.

[ReineD]

Anyone who says they want to emulate someone they find unattractive are not being truthful. We all want to look as good as we can

But that wasn't the question though. It's true that in my OP I used "would you want to "be" that woman", but this was in the contest of being triggered, as I've tried to explain ever since. :p The question is, would a crossdresser who sees an appealing woman while in guy mode, and who because of this feels a longing to go home and dress, have the same reaction when he sees a woman who is not appealing to him.

As to Carly's comment, I can emphatically say that when I see women whom I perceive do not prioritize wearing makeup, fashionable clothes, or other market trappings of femininity (and I do know many women like this), I certainly do not have opinions on how they can "improve" their looks nor do I mentally make them over in my mind. I respect them for who they are.

[mykell]

this is supposition on my part, i feel im fairly fashionable and knowledgeable about fashion, so for me those types of thoughts would stray toward the the more well tailored or put together looking women if i was supposedly that female if say my brain were to be swapped with hers. now that would not mean that i would not be in jeans and t shirts or sweats most of the time, i would assume i would present fashionable more than i do as myself for it would be easier to attain my preferred look with less preparation and ease from having a better quality canvas to work with and these are preferred interests but are weird in my male gender.

as it stands for me at present i am how they say high maintenance, i did not win the genetic lottery of either side, lots of paint and spackle, no hip, forms and wigs, tad overweight, not obese corset corrected waist just to attain a blendy look, when dressed as my male side me i suppose is the equivalent to the jeans and t-shirt or sweats days in the above scenario. easier and casual, i have had those chasing after the kids, wearing no makeup and a burp-stained baggy shirt with sneakers days, though my gut was not from bearing a child. i like when i feel like the "attactive girl" and realize i am the "meh" nondescript girl in the library or the harried mom only my gender is mismatched.

seeing the women i find attractive does not give me the urge to run home and get dressed.....

[Tina_gm]

I think that many cis gendered people will see someone of their sex, admire the look of the person, or envious of their body and want to be more like that. At least that is how it used to be anyway. I remember back in the 80's a lot of us guys were really into looking good, especially when we went out clubbing. I don't know if maybe it is a trend, or what, but what I see now of guys especially is really quite sad to me. Now granted, I am in a higher than normal area of hardcore toxic masculine types, and I just have a hard time thinking that a totally unkept look, with an inch plus amount of facial hair from cheek to throat is a look that women are attracted to. Maybe they are though.

So, for us who are cross dressers, we reverse it. We see a woman who we envy, a look we like, and I think for us, it is a bit of a trigger as well, plus those of us who are attracted to women, then its sort of complicated because we are wanting to look like or be, but also attracted to it as well. I would think that may be something that sometimes happens with gay or lesbian people???

[Ressie]

I didn't have a problem with Carly's comment. I thought it was interesting and honest. Interesting because we're all unique in this crossdressing/gender identity thing. What she is saying doesn't apply to me, but I don't see why she's being judged for telling the truth about her feelings. I don't see what she's saying to be negative, just misinterpreted.

[mykell]

......................To OCCarly Sexy Thang (the words on your avatar), forgive me for being blunt but you have a lot to learn about women. There are a great many things they feel are more important than looks or being sexy, contrary to what you might think. Their lives are rich with creativity, intelligence, work, study, family, loves, children, friends, spirituality, strength, giving, receiving, thoughtfulness, involvement in social issues, etc, none of which require being sexy or dressing like a fashion plate. And do you know why this is? Because they know that the people who matter see them for the women of substance that they are more than just a pretty thing to look at.

i get that its materialistic, superficial, narcissistic, perhaps of carlys response, not very deep......but in this day and age when many women use theyre bodies and exploit theyre sexuality, theyre womanhood be it for personal gain, fame, to get a rich man, whatever.......real housewives of wherever, kardashian this or that, is it wrong that carly has come to feel this way and answer as she did with honesty.....miss america is the objectified vision of a women, most are well schooled, talented, ambitious, competitive and want world peace, they do this because they want to, they may have been forced when young and if they were most times its the mothers.....you asked she answered, was this a baited question, that avatar is a choice available from the forum. this is the MtF crossdressing section. men are pigs sometimes but women enable them too....so i guess some women are sexist pigs too....if carly really wants to be a "sexy thang" it would be her choice. you take it for what its worth....

[ReineD]

Mikell, I don't want to send this thread into another direction, but let me just say that you are not describing average women. You're just describing a nebulous stereotype. The women that I see around me everyday (and the GGs who participate here) do not exploit their sexuality nor their womanhood for personal gain. They are average women who go about their lives working, going to school, raising kids, taking care of their responsibilities, etc, all while trying to achieve some modicum of happiness, just like the men that I know.

I also disagree with your qualification of men as pigs. :p

[Georgette_USA]

Reine

Yes some woman do use their sexuality for some gain. Younger women will follow those stereotypes to attract a mate. Men will do the same. But some will just relax with themselves after the marriage.

I did the same when in transition and after, found it doesn't actually take that much. Attracted men but never could get into any real friendship. I got tired of all the chasing games, and let myself go for 25-30 years. Was in a mutual romantic relationship with another Post MtF so it was not a problem.

Even now that I started back into it at 65, it doesn't really take much to get men's attention. Unfortunately one also attracts the creeps or wrong men. The old adage of dress like others your age, doesn't work for me anymore.

In LGBT clubs will attract some Gay men, and have to explain my gender/sex. Plus the women are not sure what I am, because I pal around with a mix of CDs and Pre TG/TS. Have asked other Femme Lesbians if I need to tone it down. But they say dress and present how one feels comfortable.

[mykell]

sorry it was not my intention to redirect it as i saw it had already swayed a bit and wanted to add my opinion.

your right, you hang with respectable thinking folks and at classy locations.....not all are or do,
these types of shows are not staying on air because they are unpopular, they have viewership,
shallow people who fall for these stereotypes of women and men, not the average joe or jane.
but theyre selling it and people are buying.

some men are pigs, some men act like pigs sometimes.....you must hang with a descent crowd.

[Zooey]

Yes some woman do use their sexuality for some gain. Younger women will follow those stereotypes to attract a mate. Men will do the same. But some will just relax with themselves after the marriage.

The connections you're trying to draw here are just beyond fantastical. Deciding to try to make yourself more attractive to a potential partner has nothing to do with what OCCarly was talking about OR the original thread topic.

I don't even know what to make of the rest of your post, so I'm not even going to try.


your right, you hang with respectable thinking folks and at classy locations.....not all are or do,
these types of shows are not staying on air because they are unpopular, they have viewership,
shallow people who fall for these stereotypes of women and men, not the average joe or jane.
but theyre selling it and people are buying.

some men are pigs, some men act like pigs sometimes.....you must hang with a descent crowd.

Again, the connections people are trying to draw here are simply beyond reason.

First of all, that's either some crazy shade you're attempting to throw, or you are hanging out with some pretty intense people. Most women (and men) I know who watch those shows, across a wide range of ethnic/financial/educational backgrounds, KNOW they're trash. I have a lot of extended family is in Lousiana, and without getting too deep into their situation, I know some pretty damn ignorant and highly uneducated people. They know it's trash.

It has nothing to do with reality. It's entertainment. Hell, it's not even really the Kardashians' reality.

With all that said, I think I'm going to just retreat from this forum for a while, because stuff like this (especially when it comes from people who identify as women) makes me wonder whether some radfems I VIOLENTLY disagree with may actually have a point on occasion, and that makes me feel beyond dirty.

[ReineD]

some men are pigs, some men act like pigs sometimes.....you must hang with a descent crowd.

Maybe men act like pigs among themselves then, and this is a side they do not show to women in which case I would have rarely seen it?

And you're right, I do hang out with decent, average people. I've lived in the province of Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia, and in the US I've lived in New Jersey, Pennsylvania and my undisclosed state now that is in the southern midwest. I hang out with average people who have average jobs. I've lived in large cities and small towns. And I've traveled quite a bit.

The idea that women dress up like vixens to ensnare men like the Kardashians or Mad Wives is just a media stereotype. Real women don't act that way. There might be the occasional self-absorbed girl here and there (I did know one or two in high school who were full of themselves), but this does not describe the vast majority of women on this planet. Really.

I wonder how many members here share your views, and if so, why. Maybe I'll start a thread to ask.

But now we're really getting away from the topic.

[mykell]

to a fault most times i will get burned for standing up for someone who has an unpopular position, i dont agree with how carly identifies with the topic, but i can simply see why she might see things her way, human nature, their is a shallow end to the pool, i have been taught their exists a deeper end as well....i feel i am in the deep end but im also empathetic to the ones in the shallow end, carly's opinion is not a reflection of how i feel....i tried to show some examples of why she could have that view, i do not personally watch those types of reality shows, to be honest just from the promotional stuff i saw their was no interest to try, on the other hand i could not watch "frozen" and it was wildly popular.

some education and compassion can help end the ignorance of our detractors globally as well as help those from within our ranks, just saying....i think i understand where carly thinks shes coming from, so i took it from where it came from, it did turn into a bit of a "dogpile on the rabbit"


........................Again, the connections people are trying to draw here are simply beyond reason.

First of all, that's either some crazy shade you're attempting to throw, or you are hanging out with some pretty intense people. Most women (and men) I know who watch those shows, across a wide range of ethnic/financial/educational backgrounds, KNOW they're trash. I have a lot of extended family is in Lousiana, and without getting too deep into their situation, I know some pretty damn ignorant and highly uneducated people. They know it's trash.

It has nothing to do with reality. It's entertainment. Hell, it's not even really the Kardashians' reality.

With all that said, I think I'm going to just retreat from this forum for a while, because stuff like this (especially when it comes from people who identify as women) makes me wonder whether some radfems I VIOLENTLY disagree with may actually have a point on occasion, and that makes me feel beyond dirty.

"Most women (and men) I know " most people i know too, but some i dont know. (especially when it comes from people who identify as women) or "people like you"?


Maybe men act like pigs among themselves then, and this is a side they do not show to women in which case I would have rarely seen it?

And you're right, I do hang out with decent, average people. I've lived in the province of Quebec, Ontario, British Columbia, and in the US I've lived in New Jersey, Pennsylvania and my undisclosed state now that is in the southern midwest. I hang out with average people who have average jobs. I've lived in large cities and small towns. And I've traveled quite a bit.

The idea that women dress up like vixens to ensnare men like the Kardashians or Mad Wives is just a media stereotype. Real women don't act that way. There might be the occasional self-absorbed girl here and there (I did know one or two in high school who were full of themselves), but this does not describe the vast majority of women on this planet. Really.

I wonder how many members here share your views, and if so, why. Maybe I'll start a thread to ask.

But now we're really getting away from the topic.

so you never met a "male chauvinist"......"gold digger"......the stereotypes exist for a reason no mater who gets credit for them they exist for a reason.

if you do start that thread i will not be responding, learned my lesson here,

i think i answered your question in post #83 but i also addressed what you posted in #68 and think the thread was a little askew before that.

the opinions here are not that of myself but i respect that they exist and the people that have them have a right to have them.

[Meghan4now]

Reine,

After reading more of your clarification of your question, and many other responses, I feel your question is an impractical question of an impractical meme. What I mean by this is that I have heard this quote about want to be the girl more than wanting to be with the girl many times, many places. I think that the quote has some meaning for some individuals, but I also believe it is a popular sound bite that sounds good so is adopted easily.

Let's look at the implications of the statement. It is clearly differentiating between sexual attraction and gender identity. In our world, many of us are very sensitive to being branded as sexual deviants, perverts, weak, and therefore bad and worthless people. So a sound bite that helps justify our choices as being more wholesome might just be popular.

I think you are getting a lot of blowback on your question because it also has a subtle judgemental tone to it as well. The implication that getting that feeling of want to be her only if she is beautiful smacks of accusation of being shallow and objectifying. It is extremely popular to accuse men of this, both in popular culture as well as real life. So men can be sensitive to this criticism, especially ones that feel like they are trying to avoid the "typical" chauvinistic attitude.

Ironically, CDS may actually (sometimes) promote chauvinism or misogyny inadvertently, even while trying to overcome the same. I think I get what you are asking, but I think the way you've asked it this time is too loaded to get calm and well thought out responses.

[Krisi]

............. As to Carly's comment, I can emphatically say that when I see women whom I perceive do not prioritize wearing makeup, fashionable clothes, or other market trappings of femininity (and I do know many women like this), I certainly do not have opinions on how they can "improve" their looks nor do I mentally make them over in my mind. I respect them for who they are.

And that's what we all should do. Women have no obligation to spend an hour getting "fixed up" just to please strangers they may encounter during the day. Most of us don't shower and shave and put on a suit and tie just to go to the grocery store or the home center. We just throw on a pair of pants and a shirt and go. We dress for the time and place and that's a woman's right as well.

Basically, all the comments and complaints about women not trying to look sexy or trying to look good are "sexist". They are disrespectful to women and people making these comments should really sit back and think about what they are saying and what it means about their attitudes towards women.

Bottom line, women are people, not objects for men to criticize.

[ReineD]

In our world, many of us are very sensitive to being branded as sexual deviants, perverts, weak, and therefore bad and worthless people. So a sound bite that helps justify our choices as being more wholesome might just be popular.

I think you are getting a lot of blowback on your question because it also has a subtle judgemental tone to it as well. The implication that getting that feeling of want to be her only if she is beautiful smacks of accusation of being shallow and objectifying.

Meghan, thanks for your thoughts.

I can only go by statements made by CDers, who have repeatedly written here over the years that seeing an attractive woman awakens a desire to dress - not every CDer, but enough to be a consistently popular sentiment in this forum. My question was motivated by an honest desire to understand this and so I wondered if, for these CDers, their desires are also awakened by seeing women whom they do not particularly find attractive.

I don't consider this to be deviant behavior, nor do I believe that CDers who are triggered by attractive women are objectifying them. We all consider that some people are more attractive than others, including me, without criticizing those who are not as attractive. My question pertains to what may or may not awaken a desire to dress and I ask this question assuming that CDers are not at the same time critical of women they do not find particularly appealing.

The objectification you mention only comes into play should a CDer who is triggered by an attractive woman, go further by criticizing any woman for not being attractive enough and although this does happen apparently, I consider it to be a separate topic that maybe should be discussed in greater detail in a separate thread.

[Meghan4now]

Reine,

I deeply respect you, and value your input and questions. I did not mean to imply that you felt or even suggested that CDS are deviants. What I was suggesting is that some of us may have thin skins because of previous (mostly external) experience. So this statement helps some of us fend off those feelings. It is very common for members here to make statements about how CDING is not related to sexuality (or orientation). I see the statement as sometimes building that guardband. See this very attractive girl, I'm not really attracted to her, I just want to look like her. No, not attracted at all, see I'm safe, I'm with the program.


Certainly not true for everyone in every case, but I bet if one was honest with themselves, it might be a possible motivation for the statement.

[Tina_gm]

If someone is TS, I am thinking they will take female in whatever form. But would also choose a young good looking one if the choice was available. CDers on the other hand, do not feel such a deep feeling of being female, or being one at all. Sooo.... the more attractive ones are the ones in which we wish to look like. It simply doesn't run deep enough for us to want to be any female no matter what.

Cis, trans, male, female.... I just do not think it is some bad thing to want to be attractive. To look nice. it can be destructive if that is all we think about, or spend our entire lives trying to be, or that we value ourselves only on our appearance. But to say, hey, It would be nice to look like that, and maybe even make efforts to look more like that, why the heck not??

[Kate T]

If someone is TS, I am thinking they will take female in whatever form. But would also choose a young good looking one if the choice was available.

umm...... No. Simply, No. I'm quite happy with being me, my age, my characteristics, my face, yes even to an extent my body.

[Tina_gm]

It is all just a hypothetical thought Kate. I am glad you are happy with yourself. I personally am not interested in just saying something politically correct, or some feel good answer or whatever. If there was somehow a choice for me to be better looking and 20 again, I wouldn't pass it up. And I would take my wife with me too. Oh to be 20 again. Obviously that is not reality. Still though, I am not going to be shy about the idea of me looking better or younger somehow if I can. I won't butcher my face to do so like so many hollywood celebrities. I simply care about my appearance, in male mode just as much as en femme. I will improve it if I think I can in small easy ways like diet and exercise. Grooming, skin care.

I find it odd, really really odd that those who are transitioning extensively alter their entire appearance, BA, FFS, Laryngeal shave, hair restoration, hair removal. But somehow the thought of wanting to look "better" is superficial, really?

[ReineD]

Thanks Meghan, I understood what you were saying and was hoping to address the tendencies anyone might have to fend off a perceived insult.

Also, a continued thanks for all of your responses. :)

[AmandaM]

To clarify my answer, no, I am not in any way compelled to dress when I see an unattractive woman. Nor do I ever wish to be her.

But, I wonder, if I looked more androgynous or feminine than I do now, would I really want to be the hot chick so much?

[Lori Kurtz]

I can only go by statements made by CDers, who have repeatedly written here over the years that seeing an attractive woman awakens a desire to dress - not every CDer, but enough to be a consistently popular sentiment in this forum. My question was motivated by an honest desire to understand this and so I wondered if, for these CDers, their desires are also awakened by seeing women whom they do not particularly find attractive.

For me, it's all about the sex appeal--whether with respect to creating a female appearance for myself or just enjoying looking at a real female (or another crossdresser who is good at it). Seeing someone who is sexually appealing is pleasurable in itself, but is equally a trigger for the crossdressing urge. Seeing an unattractive women doesn't create any hormonal impulse--no pleasure in itself, no desire to crossdress.

Interesting side observation:
when a physically unappealing woman becomes interesting upon my discovery of her delightful personality or cleverness or sense of humor, some sexual arousal might emerge. But no matter how appealing she becomes in that way, there is no stimulation of crossdressing urge. So it would seem to be all about appearance. Superficial? Yeah, I guess I have to admit that.

[becky77]

I think there is some real honest answers in here which I admire.

Nothing wrong with admitting Crossdressing is mostly based on a certain feminine ideal, it borders on sexist but I don't see that as an issue when people are aware and honest about the reasons.

My gripe is about those who take it to the next level and think that those sexist ideals make them female or even more insulting more female than a woman who chooses not to dress like a men's magazine stereotype.

If you're idea of what it is to be a woman is based on a man's sexual visual you should take some time to evaluate that thought process. Hyper-feminine is rare in a woman yet common in male crossdressers, strikes me as more of a male trait rather than female.

Again I have no issue with CDers enjoying wearing the heels etc and feeling sexy or feminine, I think that's normal and understandable, just try not to assume that is typically linked to a female identity.

I'm full-time TS and I'd be lying if I didn't want to look younger and attractive, the beauty industry is enormous. Half the women I know spend a lot on creams, nails and hair etc, two of my friends have had boob jobs, three nose jobs and various other tweeks, but the other half aren't bothered.
It's about choice, where things go wrong here is when someone implies a slight on the feminity of those women who don't feel the need or want to buy into the heavily marketed world of so called beauty.

I'm not sure why some Crossdressers look for excuses or deeper meaning if it's just about the clothes, I don't see why Crossdressing should impact on one's masculinity or Heterosexuality. Sure I get the stigma but that will only change through people owning it.
Look at Eddie Izzard he shows such confidence in who he is and wears no shame. That's how it should be, you let people think something is wrong with you and they will feel awkward. You own a look or situation and the majority of people go with it.

[Melissa Rose]

Lori, your response to Reine's original question has been the most concise, direct and honest answer as best as I can remember. It tackles the heart of Reine's question without judgement, defensiveness or apologies. Well done.

Your side observation is spot on. We are all are superficial to some extent, but it is how we deal with or react to it that matters the most.

[sometimes_miss]

So for those of you who long to be the women you see, it is strictly women that you feel are attractive, or do you think you would have the same longing to look like say, an overweight girl in the library wearing nondescript clothes (baggy jeans and baggy Tshirt) with straggly hair and pimples, or a harried-looking mom who still has quite a gut from childbirth, chasing after her kids, wearing no makeup and a burp-stained baggy sweatshirt with sneakers. I'm creating these specific mental images to make sure that when you read this, you won't have in your mind's eye an attractive girl at the library or a cute young mom. I really would like to compare your reactions to attractive women vs women who are not particularly attractive
Perhaps you might wish to consider how many GG's would envy and like to be that overweight unattractive female? would you? If not, what makes you wonder why any crossdresser/TG/TS person would? When I was single, I had a 'girly' calender with pictures of Paulina Poriskova on it; after my ex discovered my crossdressing, and assumed that I was TS, part of her way of insisting that was, to point to that calender and ask 'If you could, would you switch places with her?' My answer was, 'Wouldn't you? Why wouldn't anyone want to be rich and be one of the most beautiful people on the planet?' To which she instantly responded, 'That's different. There, that's what I mean. A normal man would never want to be a girl of any kind'. My answer to that was, 'Well, you only offered me that choice, or remain me. You didn't offer me the opportunity to look like any famous good looking males. So, why not?'. And then of course the discussion deteriorated.

When we talk to people of one gender who wish the type of life that someone in particular of the opposite gender has, no one wishes for the worst part of that person's life. Anyone want to be the girl in India who was beaten because she was a rape victim? Anyone wish to be a woman who was in a fire and has all kinds of burn scars? How about the FTM's, any of them wish to have the life of a soldier who's genitals and legs have been blown off in an explosion? Or want to have the life of a male leper? Or do they ever wish to be a scrawny, short, ugly, physically weak man ? I'm guessing probably not; but I'm also guessing you'd never consider asking any FTM person that question, either.

All these ideas of trying to corner us into admitting that we somehow just want to be girls because we only want the 'fun' side of female life, and don't want the hard part of male life, is cruel. I'm sure there are a few, but most of us haven't chosen to want to be females. Life is hard enough without all the difficulties involved in this. As Louis CK says, being a male, especially a white male, is still a pretty good deal. Throwing a wrench into the works by introducing the desire to dress and behave like a female is not doing us any favors. So, yes, when I think of being a female, of course I think of being an attractive one. I have pondered at times whether life would have been better as a female, not having to deal with all the problems that I face with all this crossdressing desires, and the TG feelings that come and go; so yes, I could deal with being an average looking woman, mostly because I know that being an average woman in the U.S. is still a pretty good deal, and also that most average women who are unhappy with their circumstances usually are so because they were brought up to believe that they were going to 'get' a better deal in life than they wound up with; the whole 'you're a princess and you should never settle' concept.

I'm not a prince and have no delusions of being a princess, either. I could have been happy being an average guy OR girl. But I didn't get either of those options, either.

[ReineD]

Perhaps you might wish to consider how many GG's would envy and like to be that overweight unattractive female? would you?

Yeah, but here's the thing. GGs do not experience an urge, when they see an attractive woman on the street, to go home and put on makeup or a pretty dress.

The essence of my question was not about whether CDers want to be attractive or not, of course CDers want to be as attractive while dressed as they can be. I was instead wondering what may or may not awaken a desire to dress (see my other posts in this thread). If a CDer, while in drab, sees an appealing woman that causes an urge to dress, would he still experience the same urge if he saw a woman whom he does not find appealing.

[Tina_gm]

Reine, with exception to purely fetish oriented dressing, I hypothesize that when WE the CDer see something we like it creates an urge or a greater urge to dress comes from the same mechanism that causes non transgender people to be motivated to change their appearance or behavior, such as eating better, exercising etc etc. Women will see another woman who has a look they admire. Not necessarily heels, it could be flats, a nice blouse, or pants, just everyday style of clothing. They may think, I like how that looks on her. Then, the next time when shopping (not creating an urge to shop) but just that casual observation may lead a woman to try on something similar. As I said, not fetish, or if they see something they find appealing in a non sexual way, they are not going to go run home and just start wearing something. But it is there, in a subconscious way.

For CDers, genderfluid types such as myself, at least how it is for me, since this thread all started with you quoting me.... hehehe.... the urge to dress, or look like or be a woman is always there to an extent. oftentimes like a background program running on a computer. Then, when I see something that I like, not in a fetish way, because for me, dressing is not sexual. In fact I personally dislike the highly charged look of say 5 or 6 inch stilettos, pencils skirts and gobs of crazy make up. Basically the hooker look. Not for me, and it isn't an age related thing either. I always found it to be distasteful, out in public anyway, even when I was 20. It didn't impress me then, and doesn't now.

When I do see the look I personally like, that background program does move to the conscious part of the brain. That is how I can best describe it. When I was a teenager and in my early 20's, well, that was just a very confusing (more confusing lol) time than now. The denial aspects of myself back then certainly made the desire to be much more dramatic, and the resulting attempts to thwart such desires off of the brain. Now, it still happens, but in a much more subtle way for me.

[ReineD]

I'm not talking about fetish. I'm talking about triggers.


Women will see another woman who has a look they admire. Not necessarily heels, it could be flats, a nice blouse, or pants, just everyday style of clothing. They may think, I like how that looks on her. Then, the next time when shopping (not creating an urge to shop) but just that casual observation may lead a woman to try on something similar.

I've lived a rich life, in many different places and I have had many, many close relationships with women throughout my life. And I can tell you with all certainty that when we see something we like (whether flats, or heels, or skirts, or pants), it is NOT because of the way these things look on other women. We couldn't care less how these items look on someone else. We only care how they look and feel on us, because we know that we're all different! Different ages, different bodies, different everything. Seeing a pair of shoes we admire on another woman is just the same as seeing them in something as sterile as a catalog. It's the shoes themselves we like, and not the fact that another woman looks good in them. Example: I was shopping recently for a bathing suit. I do not have the body I had when I was younger and so I wanted a one piece. I saw tons of gorgeous bikinis on exquisite looking models. Tons. And not once did I even consider getting one for myself because I know that I wouldn't like myself in a bikini.

Still, your example does not fit what I'm getting at in this thread. The question I asked refers to a phenomena that occurs only in (some? many?) CDers and not in GGs, which is feeling the urge to dress rise up when encountering a particularly appealing woman. We don't feel triggered to dress as other women ever, not even when standing next to Miss America, because we're already women.

You yourself experienced it when you saw that attractive woman at the bar and the cheerleaders. Would you have experienced it when looking upon a woman that you do not consider appealing. Example: if you were visiting grandma at the old folk's home and everyone there was over 80, missing teeth, short and stooped, thinning white hair, and wearing granny clothes (I'm exaggerating to remove any possible image of attractive senior ladies from the equation), would you feel triggered the same way that you might if you were backstage in guy mode during a Miss America pageant when they were getting ready to do the evening gown segment.



For CDers, genderfluid types such as myself, at least how it is for me, since this thread all started with you quoting me.... hehehe.... the urge to dress, or look like or be a woman is always there to an extent.

But does the urge get stronger sometimes more than others? Or, maybe in your earlier post you were describing urges in your youth, and now things are more stabilized?

[Lori Kurtz]

Reine, in your response to Gendermutt, you said:

I'm not talking about fetish. I'm talking about triggers.

...

Still, your example does not fit what I'm getting at in this thread. The question I asked refers to a phenomena that occurs only in (some? many?) CDers and not in GGs, which is feeling the urge to dress rise up when encountering a particularly appealing woman. We don't feel triggered to dress as other women ever, not even when standing next to Miss America, because we're already women.

...

But does the urge get stronger sometimes more than others? Or, maybe in your earlier post you were describing urges in your youth, and now things are more stabilized?

This has been a fascinating thread. I probably don't have to tell you that there is no one answer to your questions, because of the diversity of what crossdressing means to us those of us who do it (or in my case, have done it in the past). None of us can give you THE answer to any of your questions. But here's a little more clarification of how it worked for me.

The whole idea of dressing myself up as a woman is not a reflection of any desire on my part to become a woman. It is simply a sex act: a way of helping myself create sexual excitement that leads to sexual satisfaction. Since males are notoriously susceptible to visual stimuli when it comes to sex--or maybe I should just own my own stuff and say that I am susceptible to visual stimuli--I am aroused when I see a sexually appealing female form. And I am not aroused when I see a non-appealing female form. When I become aroused, I want satisfaction and release, and throughout my history, dressing up (or fantasies thereof) have often been a part of that satisfaction. Seeing a sexy woman makes me desire her, although in most cases, I'm not going to get her. But back in my dressup days, I was always available to myself. I might have wished the woman would be easy, but I was always easy. That's the kind of fantasy girl I was. For a couple of decades, my desires were satisfied only by a real woman, the love of my life. Now that she's gone and I'm that much older, my urges are less demanding and insistent, though equally pleasant. I don't seem to need the dressing up. Seeing a lovely young woman (and at this point, "young" can mean ... oh ... maybe somewhere into the mid-50s) still creates some arousal, and that often leads to some memories/fantasies of what I might have been able to do to create that look in myself back in the day. Seeing a non-lovely woman of any age does not have that effect at all on me.

[Tina_gm]

Reine, when you are buying a bathing suit that fits your body as it is now, what I am saying is seeing someone who has a body similar to what yours is, and see what looks good on them so it may give you an idea of what might look good for you too. It is a comparison to those whom you can compare to. Not in such a conscious way, but the phenomena you are describing I am hypothesizing is sort of the same. It is just a much larger more distinct phenomena for CDers because we have a much stronger divide to cross.

Reine, I hope you take this as a compliment. It is meant to be one. You are one of the most practical people I have ever known of. You are very much a realist. Your lack of any superficiality is to me commendable. Either in looks or in persona. Still though, middle aged women who perhaps have a pants size in the double digits will browse through a lane Bryant catalogue. They will see women of their general body type and age, and see something that looks appealing, then will go to a lane Bryant or other store and go look for that, try it on to see if they can achieve a similar look. For you, you may not process this as much, but that is typically what people do, both male and female. Younger women who are in the single digits might be looking through a cosmopolitan or some other magazine doing the same thing.

Now, for CDers, that divide of what we want to look like and what we do look like causes a much greater divide. It can or does cause some of the dysphoria that is felt. I think too, that many CDers or TG wherever they are at, often spend many years like I did, denying themselves of who they are. So, GG's once had that youthful body and the ability to pull off a look that 30 or 40 years later, they no longer can. They lived it, experienced it, but have now moved on to what is more important in their lives. CDers on the other hand, never had that. A middle aged CDer now just coming to terms with themselves are going to dress or want to like a 20 year old girl going clubbing. To me, I have a real hard time seeing pictures of a 50+ year old CDer in 5 inch heels and a pencil skirt, or VS lingerie. Not such a hard time seeing a middle aged CDer dressing her age and for her body type.

As for me why I feel the desires sometimes stronger than other times, I guess that is just the nature of being gender fluid. Why sometimes I see a woman dressed in a way I find appealing, not just in a sexual way, but just something I find appealing period than other times, it just is the nature of it all for me. Like a phenomenon within a phenomenon. One day I can see the same thing but it strikes me differently than another day. Overall, it is much less dramatic to me I think due to my acceptance of myself. When I was 18 and I would see the cheerleaders, my mind was in nearly a crisis panic mode. no no no no no.... you want to be out on the field, not on the sidelines with pom poms. What is wrong with you. Get a grip on yourself. You like them cause they are hot, not because you want to be one. Then a few years later, still in just as much denial, and see a classy looking office woman, knee length skirt or dress, 3"heels with a graceful delicate gait. no no no no no, you want to be outside in workboots with a shovel in your hand, not in some office being a secretary or whatever. I think now I am just ok when I see a look I like and then experience that wanting to be her feeling, I just sort of expect it now, and it probably happens a lot more actually, as I am not fighting it off. It just seems to be much less dramatic for me. So I guess stabilized could be the correct word.

[Georgette_USA]

As an old 65 TS, I feel like a mix of what Reine says and what GM says.

Reine

I can see your point being that "GG"s don't get the urge to dress up to just look like other attractive women, after all we are already dressed as most other women. But to say we are not influenced by what other women are wearing would make the whole fashion industry useless. Granted we may not want to exactly dress like others. Obviously we have to take our age/size into account.
Being a PLUS size older woman I have to ignore most of the influences. But still to see other woman looking good in my age/size gives me ideas on what may work.

With TG/CD and TG/? and TG/TS, we suffer from the lack of the formative teen years. Included TG/? as not all do the full TS transition but aren't just CDs.
When I (TG/TS) was starting transition our friends would say to observe women in our age/size to determine our look. And that holds true no matter the age of transition.
With the TG/CD that I know for clubbing/parties they will ignore those ideas. Most don't dress for everyday looks as they don't dress everyday.
With TG/? and TG/TS they will observe what others are wearing and what "GG"s are wearing. Because they may be dressing for everyday and clubs/parties.

As for the 50+ crowd I have NO idea what kind of lingerie they are wearing. At 65 I still like to wear attractive/sexy lingerie, not VS as not my size, as that is something I prefer.
Agree that 5" heels and pencil skirt might be too much. I do have some 4" that I wear for parties, but flats mainly in warm weather.

[ThiHi]

Not in much, but saw this and thought it was an interesting topic.

Me: Not full time at all. Gender fluid I guess, is a goo description. 50+. Some of my dressing is sexual, or maybe sensual is abetter term. Some of us like wearing a little 'something; for a romantic evening... or morning, or afternoon." But I wear what I want, typically. I don't 'dress' fully when out for number of reasons, and the largest is just to avoid the hassle. I don't want to deal with what bathroom, the stares, the comments. I just want to get through my day. But I'm usually in MJs, skinny jeans, etc. Sometimes in leggings. I guess when I see an attractive woman, dressed nice, I see an attractive woman, dressed nice. Perhaps I"ll react to the look or to her and feel 'lust in my heart', maybe not. For me, doesn't increase my desire to wear whatever. The clothing is personal preference. I find 'women' clothes more interesting, more colorful, an more open to possibilities. Lots more variety. It also tends to be of softer, more 'sensual' fabric than most 'guy' clothes.

But as has been said, everyone os different, and different people will have different motivations. For some of us it's more complicated than "it's a fetish" or "I'm a woman". I am legion. I contain multitudes ;-)

[Jenn A116]

Very interesting topic. I'm enjoying reading the various responses. Let me contribute my perspective:

When I see an attractive woman my male side first appreciates the feminine beauty. My Jenn side then takes over and analyses the clothing, hair, makup, etc. Jenn usually finds something in her style that she want's to emulate. Unfortunately, that's often a thing that's really beyond reality for me. :(

Now, when I see and "unattractive" woman my male side is ready to move on. But my Jenn side looks a bit closer to see if there is even some small thing that would be interesting to try. However, sometimes we see a woman that apparently takes no pains at all to put on a nice appearance. In that case our eyes glaze over and we move on to the rest of the female universe out there.

[ReineD]

Gendermutt, you're still talking about whether a person likes an item of clothing (or not), based on how it looks on another person in front of them, or on a model in a catalog, or on a clothing rack at the store. To me, they're all the same. I either like the color, fabric, cut, and overall style, or I do not. Something might look great on a woman my body type and my age, but if I don't like it, then it won't make me like it more. :p And even if I do see something that I like and feel might suit me, even if it is on a gorgeous woman who happens to be my body type, if I'm not in the market for anything at that moment, then no matter how much I like it I will not be tempted to buy it. If I already have 2 or 3 sweaters, no matter how exquisite might be the next sweater I see, I will not buy it. It has nothing to do with who is wearing the item or how much I like it.

And if you do want to talk about aesthetics, we can talk about what makes people like anything. Right? Why do people choose a specific color over another on their new car. Why do they choose a particular style of sofa in a particular fabric over other styles. When you buy a new set of dishes, why choose this one instead of that one. Men and women do have aesthetic preferences and this is perfectly natural.

This, however, has nothing to do with my question.

My question was, to the CDers who while in guy mode do feel a distinct urge rise up when they see appealing women (we've had enough posts about this over the years to say this happens regularly), do they still feel this way when they see unappealing women. It has nothing to do with wanting to buy the clothing that the appealing woman might have on, or deciding if her clothes might suit the CDer or not. The question is, if seeing her makes them want to go home and be feminine, would they feel the same urge when they see women who don't appeal to their particular tastes.

If this no longer happens to you, that's fine. But you did say that when you were younger, you did feel a specific, overwhelming urge to be that beautiful woman at the bar and on a separate occasion, those cheerleaders. And a lot of members have said similar things. I just wondered why.

[Teresa]

Reine,
When you explain it in those words maybe it could be partly explained by the male wanting the competitive edge , seeing someone or something that looks attractive he may want it or the look . Seeing the opposite raises the thought I can do better or I would make a better looking woman than her if dressed.
At one time I may have seen an attractive GG in the street and thought when I get home I can put the same look together and look as good as her. I've found going out socially has changed that , which is one of the things you predicted would happen , I dress to form my own style , for the sort of female I think I am , or would like to be.

[Tina_gm]

My question was, to the CDers who while in guy mode do feel a distinct urge rise up when they see appealing women (we've had enough posts about this over the years to say this happens regularly), do they still feel this way when they see unappealing women. It has nothing to do with wanting to buy the clothing that the appealing woman might have on, or deciding if her clothes might suit the CDer or not. The question is, if seeing her makes them want to go home and be feminine, would they feel the same urge when they see women who don't appeal to their particular tastes.

If this no longer happens to you, that's fine. But you did say that when you were younger, you did feel a specific, overwhelming urge to be that beautiful woman at the bar and on a separate occasion, those cheerleaders. And a lot of members have said similar things. I just wondered why.I think this just ends up being the nature of being transgender, but not TS. Or a CDer. I feel like I get lost in the terminology these days with transgender. To me CDing is just the action of someone who is TG. Not all feel this way.

It sort of goes with the often asked question from CDers to GG's what does it feel like to be a woman?????? and no woman can really answer this question, because there is no point of reference to be anything other than a woman. But with someone who is TG there is a point of reference, because we are not one in the same with our body and our internal identity, at least not completely. The "I want to be her" probably doesn't happen the same way for those who are TS, as they already feel they are. they may just feel imprisoned in the wrong body, so the feelings do not come over them as they are always there constantly. I am guessing at most of this btw.

I suppose the feelings that come over us when we see an attractive woman (to us) vs an unattractive woman (to us) is again part of that not TS TG thing, and since a TS woman doesn't get the feeling of I want to be her anyway, so they don't see the not as attractive women as differently, just another woman passing through life, as they are. TG is so darn confusing even to us who are.

[ReineD]

Gendermutt, I appreciate all your analysis, but you're bringing so much into it that really has no bearing to my question (fetish vs non-fetish, how women react or don't react to clothes, TS vs TG, how it feels to be a woman, etc) and I have a feeling you just don't want to think about all the times CDers have said they felt an urge to dress when they saw a particularly appealing woman (or even when they saw particularly appealing clothes in a catalog or online). That's OK, you can certainly say it no longer applies to you and so you therefore cannot answer my question.

But, there are indeed many others who are triggered by such things and as I said in my first post, my question is to them.

... And thank you everyone, for your continued responses to my question. :)

[Tina_gm]

I think I probably don't get exactly the same reaction because my CDing is not sexual or fetish at all. I still get that feeling, when I see a particular woman with a particular look that I find appealing. Maybe I am trying to answer a question I cannot answer.... I do know that I can be attracted to a woman and feel like I want to be her at the same time, but I can also be attracted to a woman and not get that feeling of wanting to be with her and vice versa. I know I don't show pics of myself, for privacy reasons, but my dressing that I do and the style I like is not considered "sexy" or provocative in any manner. I guess like the tolerance thread, I don't get it.... I get it now lol

[NicoleScott]

Reine, pretty women get my attention more than unattractive ones, but neither prompt me to dress. However, WHAT they are wearing gets more attention (or not). I dress when urge meets opportunity. As opportunities open up, urges increase.

[Debglam]

So would you want to also "be" that woman, if she is the type of woman that does not appeal or that people tend to ignore because there is no wow factor, or no factor at all, not even "not bad".

First, Hi Reine! Hope all is well with you and yours!

What I really want is to be the 51 year old woman I see in my minds-eye and in the mirror at least a couple of times a week but never enough! I want to be the teenage girl I dreamt about in high school. I want to be the girl that got to line up with the other girls in elementary school.

But I don't know if this answers the question. There are women and situations that I think trigger my desire to be who I should have been more than others. Yes, a beautiful, rich, elegantly dressed "Real Housewife of" type is a trigger for me. So is a mom playing with her children in the park. Women in groups, enjoying each others' company are as well.

Sigh,
Debby

[AmandaM]

It's common to want to be the hot chick, or want to be a pleasingly feminine woman we see on the street. I think this just might be the litmus test for transsexualism -- I don't want to be a woman, I want to be THOSE women. For those of us who desire to be just like our ideal women, are we deluding ourselves? Are we objectifying and/or idolizing those women? Maybe our normal male sexual desire became inter-weaved with women's clothes, i.e., we wear them, we're "almost" those women. A neurosis, not just a fetish? I wonder.

[ReineD]

I don't want to be a woman, I want to be THOSE women.

This is what I've been picking up when reading the posts I refer to. It's a selective sort of wanting. :)

[AmandaM]

This is what I've been picking up when reading the posts I refer to. It's a selective sort of wanting. :)

Finding the hidden motivation would be priceless, I think.