Tolerance [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Zooey

05-12-2016, 02:32 PM

Just when I thought I was out...

I am also struck by the intolerance and dismissive attitude toward crossdressers shown on this site by people who claim to be open-minded and victims of intolerance themselves. Some simply put down all crossdressers because we are not women like they are

At least based on recent posts, I'm just going to assume that it's at least possible that you're referring to me and other women like me. So, just to clarify...

I could care less about men wearing dresses, panties, makeup, or whatever they want. I say you do you, let your freak flag fly, and make it happen. I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, but I don't go into them to disrupt because it usually doesn't have any bearing on the life of an actual woman (except your SOs). I read a lot; I jump into threads on this side of the forum relatively rarely.

Until you start talking about how it makes you feel like "such a girl", "you really get women because e.g. you know the intolerable struggle of eyeliner", "being a girl is so much better/more fun", (as recently) "I'm such a girl because I constantly judge other people and love being a totally bitchy basketcase (women right, lol??)", or heaven forbid you start thinking "that makes you a woman and has anybody ever managed to use HRT to grow breasts but stay a man? How can I hide it from my wife?" Or even better, in the guise of relating your connection to/understanding of women you start slinging some incredibly misogynistic mud, usually without even realizing it, generally because you are a man and that's probably the most honest you've ever been in the presence of women about how you really feel about the worth of women and how it's determined.

That's when I show up.

You guys do you, and I (and I suspect most trans/cis women here) will leave you alone or participate positively. Start mansplaining (poorly) our gender in our presence and/or saying damaging stuff about women while expecting us to embrace your particular version of femininity, and I will call shenanigans any time I see it.

Be crossdressing men. Just be aware of how you talk about women, and what a fine line you are walking when 99% of the content here is about fetishizing our normal existence while ignoring (or in some cases dismissing) our struggles. Just to be clear, that's not a terribly comfortable thing, and I'd say we're pretty damn tolerant of it.

gina shiney

05-12-2016, 04:05 PM

Not being a seasoned member or blogger I must admit that I have noticed that some members have a narrow definition of what a crossdresser is or to be more precise dismissive of others who are on different level to them. Tolerance for all whom share on this site should be a minimum standard, acceptance a goal to aspire to. I am trying to learn and understand who I am like many others who reside here. When I first discovered this place I thought Wow and while lurking over the last Christmas decided to join, the feeling that even though I wasn't exactly on the same plain I could find a friend or two that I could chat with. (Was so happy to join, felt euphoric) I have noticed like you some of the bigotry that occurs here, yes I have made mistakes and can only hope to be excused for any offense that may have been felt. Some members have posted some demeaning comments and have been allowed to continue to post while some are edited.
I have noted that a couple of members (in my short time here) haven't been posting since they were (in my opinion) torn apart.

Vickie_CDTV

05-12-2016, 04:13 PM

In parts of the gay community, a great deal of importance is placed on machismo and being manly men, and some of them look down upon men who are not "manly". They either view feminine males as weak, or as an embarrassment to them in that they feel feminine men send the wrong message about being gay.

That, and like straight cis people, they probably don't have much exposure to "trans people", beyond the images of drag queens (which are a small, visible part of gay culture.)

carhill2mn

05-12-2016, 07:38 PM

Sadly, people are people and many do not have much tolerance for anyone who is not just like they are. It seems strange to me, also, that some people here are not very understanding of others.

heatherdress

05-12-2016, 08:31 PM

Just when I thought I was out...

At least based on recent posts, I'm just going to assume that it's at least possible that you're referring to me and other women like me. So, just to clarify...

I could care less about men wearing dresses, panties, makeup, or whatever they want. I say you do you, let your freak flag fly, and make it happen. I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, but I don't go into them to disrupt because it usually doesn't have any bearing on the life of an actual woman (except your SOs). I read a lot; I jump into threads on this side of the forum relatively rarely.

Until you start talking about how it makes you feel like "such a girl", "you really get women because e.g. you know the intolerable struggle of eyeliner", "being a girl is so much better/more fun", (as recently) "I'm such a girl because I constantly judge other people and love being a totally bitchy basketcase (women right, lol??)", or heaven forbid you start thinking "that makes you a woman and has anybody ever managed to use HRT to grow breasts but stay a man? How can I hide it from my wife?" Or even better, in the guise of relating your connection to/understanding of women you start slinging some incredibly misogynistic mud, usually without even realizing it, generally because you are a man and that's probably the most honest you've ever been in the presence of women about how you really feel about the worth of women and how it's determined.

That's when I show up.

You guys do you, and I (and I suspect most trans/cis women here) will leave you alone or participate positively. Start mansplaining (poorly) our gender in our presence and/or saying damaging stuff about women while expecting us to embrace your particular version of femininity, and I will call shenanigans any time I see it.

Be crossdressing men. Just be aware of how you talk about women, and what a fine line you are walking when 99% of the content here is about fetishizing our normal existence while ignoring (or in some cases dismissing) our struggles. Just to be clear, that's not a terribly comfortable thing, and I'd say we're pretty damn tolerant of it.

You do represent the arrogance dumped on crossdressers. This is a crossdresser forum, so why should you be so bothered by the sentiments, dreams, fantasies that are such a big part of crossdressing? And if you are a woman like you claim to be, you are definitely not a crossdresser. You could not understand. Why would you waste your time criticizing crossdressers? And isn't it even more arrogant to try to speak on behalf of womanhood? And then you think you are contributing positively by your negative remarks? So much for open-mindedness, and acceptance.

suzanne

05-12-2016, 08:48 PM

rachelatshop

05-12-2016, 10:27 PM

Hi Ladies, Yes some times the comments here are not very tolerant, and they are some times hurtful. I have one friend who posted something here, and the last thing I heard from that person was that she couldn't believe that some one from this community could be so hurtful. She had just started to come out and now she has with drawn and I can't even get in touch with her. I don't know who you are but you should be ashamed of yourself. I must admit that I have given my opinion of what some members of this community have posted because I feel that it doesn't represent what cross dressing means to me, but I always try not to be hurtful in my post. I do think that we need to be aware that when we are interacting with the outside community as a cross dressed person (girl / woman) the outside communities image of us reflects on all cross dressers. Thank you all for a great community over all.

PrivateXDresser

05-12-2016, 10:35 PM

Well said, heatherdress!

Tina_gm

05-12-2016, 11:10 PM

One comment I read elsewhere goes something like: The society we live in is patriarchal. As such, it values masculinity over femininity. So a female that exhibits characteristics we see as masculine is an upgrade. While a male who exhibits feminine traits is demeaning himself.

I have a daughter who is quite masculine. She once had an interest in becoming a kick boxer. (Her reason for not continuing is that there were no other women in her weight class). She had a bout one night in which her fight was about midway through a fairly long card. These cards arrange their fights to maximize interest, with the "best" ones coming last. The quality of my daughter's fight was not that technically good, but it was mid card because audiences apparently want to see women fight.

When I want to wear a dress, I get a lot of resistance at home, even from my daughter, who I would think understands gender non-conformance. But no. Why? Because even the women have been conditioned by the patriarchal mindset. Without knowing how or why, most of us have accepted uncritically that masculine is the preferred gender. As someone who values rational reasoning, I hate that.Yes, we do live in a patriarchal society, but that is not the reason for women now being able to be "more masculine" as you put it. It is/was the feminine movement which fought for women to be able to be equal participants in society, and not be restrained to being barefoot in the kitchen. The patriarchal society of the past expected women to be prim and proper. Now, you are saying that the patriarchal society is pushing women toward masculinity. It isn't. And IMO, much of what women are now doing is not considered masculine to me anyway. Being equal, doing the same work as any male does not make a woman more masculine. Because they now wear pants, is that really "more masculine" or because they participate in competitive athletics? That just allows them equality.

So, now there are women MMA fighters. yet, ever since the sport was invented, there have been male figure skaters.... If anything, the only thing this patriarchal society is doing is restraining men to be only masculine. Some women will feel like a man should be this, or not do that, but more women are not as judgmental about what a man does, so long as he is contributing rather than just consuming in society.

As for tolerance among the different subtypes of people, gay, trans etc etc. We are still 1st and foremost, humans. It is a human trait that crosses every sub type, fairly equally too. And while it sounds good, that gay people should expect to be more understanding of others, or trans people, no group of people really is anymore understanding or tolerant of other sub groups of people. I don't think we should hold any one group to a higher standard than another either. Oh, your gay so you should be more tolerating of others? or trans to gay people, or ethnic groups, inter racial couples, etc etc.... Is that what male privilege has come down to, the last group allowed to be judgmental? No one should hold any ability to be more or less so. Being judgmental, or intolerant of those who are not the same is a human failing, and one that we recognize and work toward bettering ourselves, all of us, equally.

Zooey

05-12-2016, 11:37 PM

You do represent the arrogance dumped on crossdressers. This is a crossdresser forum, so why should you be so bothered by the sentiments, dreams, fantasies that are such a big part of crossdressing? And if you are a woman like you claim to be, you are definitely not a crossdresser. You could not understand. Why would you waste your time criticizing crossdressers? And isn't it even more arrogant to try to speak on behalf of womanhood? And then you think you are contributing positively by your negative remarks? So much for open-mindedness, and acceptance.

I don't speak for all women. I speak for me. Anytime I've suggested that other women might feel similarly it's because I know some who do, but in no way shape or form do I speak for all women, or even all trans women, on any issue.

When I say things that seem/are negative, no - I don't think I'm contributing positively. Most of the time, it's me trying to point out something else negative that was going on.

I'm not sure how carefully you read my post, but regardless... I don't believe that being a crossdressing man is a bad thing. I believe it is a perfectly fine thing. You can talk all you want about how you relate to your brand of femininity, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I can even abide the fantasies and the fetishization without jumping into threads, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me.

When you cross the line into talking about actual women through that lens though, and when you say misogynistic/offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive things as a result, that's a problem. It's especially problematic for me when at the same time you're claiming some deeper understanding of women because of all of this. That happens a lot, and I suspect most of you don't even realize how often you do it. You know nothing, Jon Snow. There are women here - trans and cis - and this is the big melting pot forum on this site. There is a private forum for genetic males (GM) if you want to be only amongst yourselves. Here, there are women around.

Wanting or wishing for the support of the women in your life is a really common theme here. I would humbly suggest that if you, with respect your crossdressing, expressed an attitude about femininity and women that was a bit less demeaning and a bit more respectful of the women so many of you love to emulate, you might find that you start accumulating more support.

Some CDs here do just that. AFAICT, most don't.

Tina_gm

05-13-2016, 12:03 AM

Zooey, for what it is worth, many women are equally guilty of doing exactly the same to men. It is said so often, oh, you are just a man, no compassion, it's just a stupid man thing. I could go on and on and on. Social media memes go both ways a lot.

Another thing, many CDers are striving to be more feminine. Even though they may choose not to go down the path you did, that they are striving to be more feminine should not be discounted. Pointing out how the femininity they see or act on is superficial, you would be correct a lot. Helping CDers to be more understanding that the femininity they seek goes deeper than the superficiality they see would be a better idea than simply bashing them over the head because that is all they see or act on.

Many CDers get at best a lukewarm reception when they visit the TS section. They might not know exactly where they are on the spectrum. Chastising them for not being 100% female internally doesn't help them a bit. There are numerous members who are now identifying as TS and are planning to or are in the process of transitioning. At one time though, they were once "just a CDer" and likely espoused many of the things you find offensive and hurtful. It is almost like someone who was A CDer but were in a process of discovery and found their way to the TS forums, but then once they get there, they put a stronger lock on the gate. That is not really fair... How is it fair that someone who was among those who were once just a CDer and was guilty of that which is hurtful to you is ok now, but others who are in the same process today should be shooed away and go back to panty fantasy land. This TG stuff is confusing and scary as all heck to most of us, and it doesn't help when we start putting up walls between us. We all have plenty of walls to deal with with the cis gender world, we don't need the walls inside our own tent, just because we are not all on the exact same spot in the tent.

LelaK

05-13-2016, 12:22 AM

Well said, heatherdress!
But everything can be said better. It just takes too long sometimes to think how.

heatherdress

05-13-2016, 12:22 AM

Zooie - Again it is pretty arrogant to generalize and condemn crossdressers for being demeaning and then be demeaning to those you have accused. Your generalizations about crossdressers are totally unsupported by the majority of comments made on this site. Most crossdressers on this site overwhelmingly admire, love, respect their spouses and SOs. Most crossdressers show total respect and admiration for women in general. You are not only wrong in your assertions, you do not practice what you seem to condemn crossdressers of doing.

Amanda M

05-13-2016, 01:06 AM

Heatherdress - with you 100%

Hell on Heels

05-13-2016, 05:04 AM

Hell-o Consuelo,
Sure there are a few incidents where a member may discount
another's version of CDing, but for the most part... any criticism is
generally made in a supportive manner.
Now as far as opinions go...
We've all heard they are as common as @$$holes, everyone has one.
It's my opinion that it's usually an @$$hole that is adamantly expressing their
opinion (yes, I did just make an @$$ of myself! I'm OK with that!)
Anyway...CDing (for me) is not a mockery of women, it's more an admiration.
If I get it wrong? Well...shove that rules book under my nose (again) and do your best
to make me follow the rules!
Much Love,
Kristyn

Mayo

05-13-2016, 07:16 AM

People do tend to band with those who are similar, the flip side of which is unfortunately a turning away from those who are not similar to oneself. I think we do have a responsibility to try and be tolerant of others who are marginalized for various reasons, particularly those in the LGBTQ community. If one group throws their fellow travellers under the bus ("we're not like them") in order to look respectable and court social approval, that's nothing more than climbing on the backs of others to get ahead. We are all, in different ways, struggling with the gender binary. Misogyny is another facet of that same struggle, and so we also have a responsibility to elevate women at the same time and avoid comments that demean and stereotype women.

Tracii G

05-13-2016, 07:46 AM

I have to agree with gendermutt of the TS section of this forum.
It was not long after I joined here I asked a question in the TS section and I was blasted by two TS women and they were brutal.
It was years before I ever read anymore in that section.
I read that section but am really afraid of posting anything in there so I keep my mouth shut.
Zooey I'm guessing your life hasn't been easy but you do come off as being bitter and angry about something.
A TG's or CD's life isn't easy either and while they do not know how a woman truly feels they don't need to be shamed for making mistakes. We all make mistakes.

Krisi

05-13-2016, 07:56 AM

We all speak and post from our own experience. It is not specific to crossdressing or gay people. Join a forum on cars or boats and it's the same thing.

We also have our individual likes and dislikes. We don't drop those when we strap on a pair of boobs. Some of these likes and dislikes we should probably keep to ourselves but sometimes people push us until we can't keep them inside any more.

And, as a couple members pointed out, there are some real "bullies" on this forum (see Traci G's post above). People who are going to come back and harass you if you post something they don't agree with. This goes back to my first statement about posting from your own experience without any understanding of the fact that others may have different experiences.

Beverley Sims

05-13-2016, 07:57 AM

I find the diversity here invigorating and if I put a view forward others will either correct me or show their own point of view in a caring manner.

Like Traci has said the TS section is very militant and if you put a foot wrong there you are blown out of the sky.

Sadly I always drew the wrong conclusions or said the wrong thing.

An explanation would have been helpful instead......

Cliques and tribes will always be with us I think..

That's why we show tolerance and above all..... Interest.

Tracii G

05-13-2016, 08:15 AM

Militant is a good way to describe it Beverley.
Its found on every forum sadly.
I was on a site that is more populated by the younger generation say 19 thru 30 most are TG and some are TS and a few have had SRS and fully transitioned.
I answered a young CD's question and within seconds this militant bunch was on me telling me I didn't know shit and how hard life is even called a dumb **** and told to shut the hell up so yeah there are real ahole activists out there.
Basically went off on a few of the nastier members and they showed their colors. I got PM after PM from members thanking me for calling those girls out.
A mod PM'd me and said I was banned for 24 hrs and the 3 post op girls got a permanent ban.
I never went back.
Basically we are all different and will probably never agree on all things but lets at least me nice to each other.

Krisi

05-13-2016, 08:28 AM

An example:

I recently got told by a member here that as a crossdresser, I wasn't "qualified" to use the ladies restroom at Target because I wasn't "transgender". I was told to use the men's room even though I was dressed as and presenting as a woman.

Tina_gm

05-13-2016, 09:18 AM

Sadly not surprising. Because they are "such a woman" they are almost legitimizing the crap laws that are trying to be written. I have read more than once from someone who has fully transitioned, thanks to the help and acceptance from the medical profession and mental health profession that has given this transitioned person the life they seek, then that transitioned person now feels they don't want to associate themselves with "you people"

Don't stop taking your hormones there honey....

CynthiaD

05-13-2016, 10:36 AM

The thing I find most disappointing in some of the threads here is the automatic flaming that gets triggered by certain comments. The most blatant is when some well-meaning person encourages others to get out and about instead of remaining closeted. Such remarks, which are obviously aimed only at those who desire to go out but don't, always seem to attract a whole slew of nasty comments.

There are other things that are even more disappointing. Some threads seem to suggest that there is only one "tolerance mindset." If you don't turn off your brain and march in lock-step with that mindset, you are by definition a narrow-minded bigot.

But posting nasty comments is self-defeating. It won't make you happy. It won't make you feel good about yourself. It will just make you angry and bitter. We're all flawed. We're all human. We're all stupid about some things. True tolerance of others means accepting the bad along with the good. If you disagree with someone, it's ok to say so, but do it kindly.

becky77

05-13-2016, 11:06 AM

There's a lot of anger on here :eek:
Where's the tolerance now ;)

Yeah the TS section can be tough, was the same when I first joined there. Probably too harsh at times but it's a tough life being TS and Transitioning.
Feels like a hell of a fight to establish your identity so I hope you can understand why we can be over defensive at times.
Sometimes I'm guilty of being annoyed and speaking my mind, sometimes I'm also wrong. You have to work hard at not feeling bitter and it's just an opinion at the end of the day.

Doesn't help that text can be read completely different to how you meant it.

I've been called out before and I'm trying harder not to generalise, because it's true one dumbarse doesn't represent everyone.

Goes both ways though, TS are constantly attacked for elitism and other stuff.

What you forget is if I'm responding to a thread it's probably because it's genuinely interesting, with some really great input from CDers and I post on one comment I disagree with or feel isn't right.
That isn't a comment aimed at every poster.
However this has made me think. I should make more effort to support the good stuff, only commenting when I disagree is on reflection more negative than positive input.

Tracii, Gendermutt, Heatherdress I agree with some of what you say but you're also coming across as bitter and opinionated. It's easily done and escalates quickly, face to face we may have a really good convo but on here it seems more of an argument.
You have to be pretty gifted with language to stand your ground and express your point of view without offending someone using only this format. No one can tell if you're angry, hurt, joking etc etc.

Mayo I liked your post :)

Edit: Well said Cynthia you should proof read my posts lol.

Tracii G

05-13-2016, 12:19 PM

Becky its hard not to be bitter about it when for no reason a post op girl jumps down your throat and calls you names and being very nasty towards you.
I'm tired of being told I'm not "real" or I'm not "down for the struggle" or the std " you aren't a real TG you are just a guy in a dress" with shitty make up."
If hormones make some of you that bitchy its not my fault maybe you need anger management training.
I'll put it this way its not just here on this forum its across the board with post op girls online.
I still support you girls for doing what is right for you to live your life but it would be nice if some would "remember where they came from" and stopped treating others like crap.

Nikkilovesdresses

05-13-2016, 12:48 PM

I have noted that a couple of members (in my short time here) haven't been posting since they were (in my opinion) torn apart.

I know this to be true- I've spoken to two members with personal experience of it. But this site is just a microcosm of real life, and in real life people aren't always considerate.

I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, That's when I show up.

There's nothing wrong with making a point, but the way we choose to make that point can have a powerful effect. This isn't a shooting gallery, it's a support site. Perhaps rather than 'showing up' you could make the point by starting a thread and inviting comments?

Nadine Spirit

05-13-2016, 01:05 PM

This site is not solely a support site.

It tends to be supportive if:
- you don't ever say anything that is controversial
- you conform to the majority
- you never say anything that anyone ever does is wrong

For example I have observed many that are not supported because:
- they take clothes that are not theirs
- they do not conform to other's sexual thoughts
- they are not the right type of CD or TS

But honestly, I don't know if that is a bad thing. Is it wrong to not support someone who steals? I don't think so. But is it wrong to not support someone who does not express their gender variance the same way you do? That I think is wrong. But what am I talking about? Opinions. There are no clear cut rights and wrongs when it comes to opinions. And that is the difficult thing.

JenniferMBlack

05-13-2016, 03:37 PM

Fact of the matter is we are all here for the same reason. At some point in our lives we all found out we were different. Whether you are TS, TG, CD, gender fluid what ever you identify with. You are in a small minority of the population and you are looking for like minded understanding poeple. Of course with any large group of poeple there is going to be differences of opinion. What Noone wants is to be made to feel like they are less of a person because they are not like you. We have all gone through that enough in our lives. If I wanted someone to tell me I am a freak of nature and laugh at me I would go into a redneck biker bar and tell them all I am a crossdresser, we are not here for that. Everyone here has a level of comfort and a point where they are happy to say they are wrong because that dosen't match you is not acceptance or tollerance. Truth is I have felt more excepted in general public then I have here at times and it really makes you wonder sometimes. How can we complain about not being accepted then not accept others because they are different it's not how it works. A man wearing a skirt dose not take away the acceptance of a trans girl as it has been said here. If poeple start seeing guys wearing skirts then it is less of a leap for them when they see the trans person. Think about it thenumbers say about 10 percent of men crossdress this includes transgender I belive, most of those hide it from those closest to them and nearly all from everyone. So what like 5 percent of the general non crossdressing population has any interaction with crossdressers don't know if that is accurate but I'm sure it is a small portion. So a guy gose out wearing a skirt is seen by 100 poeple who have never seen a cross dresser. He acts like any other guy dosen't bother anyone dosen't do anything strange. Then a few weeks later they see another guy crossdressed they are less likely to go all crazy because now it is not so strange. Why would the guy trying to look like a girl be any different then the guy in a dress. I have seen this first hand when I worked retail the first guy wearing a skirt the whole store was all going crazy, there is a guy wearing a skirt in here then the cd can in a few weeks later she looked good but didn't pull off fully passing poeple knew but Noone made a big deal out of it. When I was told about the guy wearing a skirt I just looked at the guy telling me said ok was he cute? Do you want me to get his number see if he is interested in you? For me it was a non issue for them it was a big deal we never seen a guy wearing a skirt before what's wrong with him? It you want acceptance and tollerance then you must accept and tolerate others.

mykell

05-13-2016, 06:57 PM

hi consuela, "comfort" right, i welcome as many as i can here when they take the plunge and decide to hit the join button, big step, i tell them this is a comfortable place to share and learn about our"selves", their is a lot to learn, we may never figure it all out and for the most part we all get along.

new members that are novices want to start posts to get acclimated are routinely pounced on, those eager to blow out they're candle, generalizations, self professed experts, we have bigots among us, homophobes and transphobes in this very thread....i can prove it so dont temp me. vile remarks made by and to some, stereotypes, misunderstanding posts and what they mean, posting any nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic (to boost post count ?) and in my case the inability to compose my thoughts concisely on occasion, maybe even now.

or perhaps something like this : Chinese whispers which one person whispers a message to another, which is passed through a line of people until the last player announces the message to the entire group. Errors typically accumulate in the re-tellings, so the statement announced by the last player differs significantly, and often amusingly, from the one uttered by the first. Reasons for changes include anxiousness or impatience, erroneous corrections, the difficult-to-understand mechanism of whispering, and that some players may deliberately alter what is being said to guarantee a changed message by the end of the line. kinda like this thread.

sound familiar, but were not players, now at this point some are not actually responding to the OP. right. (I’m trying for both, the OP and some comments), its usually not amusing like the game above because we live in reality and ones reality is not anothers reality. its the internet take it from where it is coming from.

quickish story, irish-fest, good times right, (stereotype), off the parkway in my state next to a vietnam memorial, we veered over to visit the memorial before the fest real quick, this particular day someone the previous night had taken a dead rats, decapitated them and ran around the whole perimeter of the memorial and left a trail of blood around the whole place.....custodial crew was cleaning it and discussing it while doing so.

we noticed that their were obviously family and service people who had come to touch the names engraved in the walls of those they knew or a loved one they lost, i looked at my wife and told her i would never come back, i exclaimed this was not built for me. i dont feel comfortable here.

so to a fault right zooey, i can understand why the TS sections were created, i can relate to the TS folk that water there, but for me I dont feel comfortable there, my choice and reasoning.

many that water in the MtF CD section take an aback feeling when its inferred that they by definition are include it the general transgender umbrella definition and feel insulted by it. some adamantly deny any association to the LGBT, not a good ally. so why should LGBT folks advocate for them. it seems they only want to be part of the group when its convenient for them. guilty, my hands up ive done it, but ive learned here and at my support group….look someone in the eye and tell them theyre not a women just because the had reassignment surgery to become who they knew who they were all along, that goes the other way too, or see theyre joy when they have the name change.

hey crossdressing is fun, crossdressing in the real world is daunting, being TS in the real world is ?..... hell i cant tell you, its not my reality. but when i go to the TS section and read posts it brings me back to the Vietnam memorial…..i just dont belong there.

undoubtedly im about to be unfriended again but…..this thread is labeled tolerance….

tolerance or respect, is not guaranteed, its earned….so reflect about what you have personally done to advance tolerance or respect here or in real life compared to others here who lay it on the line and walk the walk....we owe them our gratitude especially when for reasons we all have or had to not be personally able to advocate for ourselves. not judging anybody, i do what I can and understand why some can't but will give others the props they deserve when they pick up the slack.

some folks dont take the time to read, trust what others are trying to convey, sometimes pointedly but with sincerity, for our own good. some are really nasty about it and could care less.

if you look at this from the TS side were a fairly silly lot of twits sometimes babbling on and on how we’re women this and just like a women that and meantime therye out there advocating on our behalf to advance things to better life for us all while most of us hide in plain site like a silly teenage girl, (stereotype) i could see why there is some anger.

i cant speak of anyones ill treated experience with the TS section or TS folks in that section but i felt wiser steering clear of it. and militant may be a little severe.

look at the comments about hormones just today and you wonder why their is a comment on misogamy (yea i had to google it the first time she used it.)
i pulled an example of misogamy thats seen here:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?236875-Let-s-play-a-game-you-know-you-re-a-girl-when
sorry to the OP for singling out this thread, like i said crossdressing is fun.
and another ….
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?229189-If-you-were-a-girl
silly stuff. again sorry to the OP.
has anyone been to the picture forum, look at the posts of those who present sexy to the amount of posts to the plain janes and then to the ones no one posts to, see....we fall all over ourselves to post in the pretty girls threads, how manly. hands up, ive done it too...

i have been communicating with zo for a few weeks, she is a compassionate, educated, curious, demanding, tolerant, dedicated, and faithful women. id be proud to call her a friend, even prouder to take a seat and pee next to her, (its between us), she has made me see things in myself i was blind to. i think if we want her to advocate on our behalf she deserves our respect, but i also think we deserve hers. so if you read her post she says she doesn't like when folks demean women, now i dont know if heather and zooey have a history in another thread but thats between them, but zo has a right to her opinion. it may be ruff around the edges but she's not the only one here like that and she is an ally for us.

as far as going through the surgical door and coming thru another person, how would i know ? how many young men went to vietnam or any war for that matter and came back the same person ? how many are on this forum ? are we all gonna live in utopia now and sing kumbaya, nope, but lets just try to respect each other a little better going forward….change is good……we have to change how we perceive each other before we change folks perception of us in the wild....

oh and just for the record and perspective i was terrified of zooey a few months ago. but now when she makes me think it hurts my brain....

Gillian Gigs

05-13-2016, 08:07 PM

The road is long from discrimination to tolerance. It is also long between tolerance and acceptance. All humans are different, the irony is that some of us who are discriminated against do the same thing to others! Some things will never change. If we can't find love and acceptance here, where will we find it?

Zooey

05-13-2016, 09:12 PM

mikell, thank you for that - I appreciate it, and it wasn't necessary for you to say that. There are a couple of things I want to clarify though.

so if you read her post she says she doesn't like when folks demean women, has anyone been to the picture forum, look at the posts of those who present sexy to the amount of posts to the plain janes and then to the ones no one posts to, see....

I have no problem whatsoever with whatever folks want to wear, and I don't really care if you take pictures of it. I don't think that's necessarily demeaning to women. If anything, it's appropriation, and the often sexualized aspect of it makes that a bit more challenging but in and of itself I don't care.

My only issue is when CDs start to conflate their version of femininity with the experiences of actual women, try to explain how we're totally the same, or project their fantasy image on us. That's when it becomes demeaning. When I mention that, it's not the picture posts. It's stuff like...

Women never dress sexy (like women, like a woman should, etc.) anymore
I'm so much more girly than most women I see
Does anybody else get the urge to do girly activities, y'know like vacuuming the house, when you're dressed?
I'm such a girl, I own like 200 pairs of panties and 50 bras
It's so great how we understand women so much better than other men because we know how to do makeup, walk in heels, etc.
Etc.

Speaking specifically to the CDs...

Be you. Embrace your brand of femininity. But you don't have to do it by projecting your fantasy onto the lives of actual women and/or judging their experience against your desires. If you want to understand women more deeply, listen to them.

oh and just for the record and perspective i was terrified of zooey a few months ago. but now when she makes me think it hurts my brain...

I'm sorry for any increases in your Advil spending this month. :)

I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, That's when I show up.

That is an incredibly misleading edit of what I actually wrote. For the record, the bit preceding that comma actually showed up as...

I could care less about men wearing dresses, panties, makeup, or whatever they want. I say you do you, let your freak flag fly, and make it happen. I think some of the conversations that happen here are gross, but I don't go into them to disrupt because it usually doesn't have any bearing on the life of an actual woman (except your SOs). I read a lot; I jump into threads on this side of the forum relatively rarely.

Don't stop taking your hormones there honey....

Thank you, I won't, because - having dealt with them before - menopausal symptoms are a bitch.

Most crossdressers on this site overwhelmingly admire, love, respect their spouses and SOs. Most crossdressers show total respect and admiration for women in general.

I never said you didn't admire, love, and respect your spouses. I was trying to say that the version of femininity that is often expressed here through your dressing is frequently glorifying the things that most women either don't have time for in the real world, or alternatively, have worked hard over decades to eliminate the expectation of them doing. My suggestion was that you may find you get more support if you either embrace a version of femininity that feels more relatable and/or respectful to the experiences of actual women, or at the very least, don't try to conflate it with the lives of actual women, or worse, how you think they should be living.

Rogina B

05-13-2016, 10:31 PM

So yes i can understand your frustration, but the fact is still lgb and T have different concerns, needs and unique problems.

But,we do have common ground. We are not "the norm" and we often disappoint others expectations of us if we are out to them. Most CD's keep it a secret so this doesn't apply to many however I find that alphabet kids can play well together on the same playground.

AmandaM

05-13-2016, 10:57 PM

I've heard this forum has a "reputation" for being less tolerant than other forums. There are a lot of different people here. We should be free to express our opinions without fear of attack.

Genny B

05-13-2016, 11:16 PM

We as a group, of which I include myself, really need to be more tolerant of each other. Knowing we all are different you would think it would be automatic, but it's not. Is it because everyone wants to be sure they are doing their best at this and find confirmation by finding ways others are not? Again, I include myself in this as I remember over hearing two fellow members talking badly about a third who had 'hairy arms' as their wife didn't want then to remove arm hair. I have since learned we all do our best. What more could anyone ask? We just need to be accepting of what others can do?

Genny B

ReineD

05-14-2016, 02:17 AM

Why do we tend to "atomize" like this into narrow cliques and tribes? I have always liked this site because of the wide range of interests in cross dressing that it represents. I like having GG's and transexuals here who share their challenges and journeys. Long may it stay that way.

It's like that everywhere. There will always be individuals who cannot understand or respect people who are different than them. You see this with race, religion, politics, education (for example a lot of people disrespect intellectual people whom they consider are "uppity"), social class, and yes, gender identity and sexual orientation too.

Thankfully, not everyone within a social group feels this way.

Teresa

05-14-2016, 06:17 AM

Consuelo,
I'm not going to tar everyone with the same brush but I've found the gay community to be an introvert group, if you don't belong to their exclusive club then don't bother them.
A good male friend gave me a talking to about my CDing and the gay community, it's something most people don't want to talk about .
This is why this forum is so useful , we can talk about things that bother us and hopefully things we find amusing. I admit that I may have spoken out of ignorance on some subjects but then many are guilty of that. We should accept being corrected but I'm afraid some members are too venomous with their comments, it is a help forum not a punishment one, there are ways of replying to people without flaming them.

I'm sure many of us have poured our heart out at some point and hesitated to hit the post button and then hope everyone sees your point of view. I'm afraid the one reply with unnecessarily harsh words is the one that sticks in your mind for days and you don't want to return to the forum for fear of being hurt again.
Sometimes I do wonder what some members joined for, they hide behind a cartoon avatar and an odd name and then dish out venom only to disappear again without having the decency or good manners to accept a matching reply, maybe they just get off on that !

mykell

05-14-2016, 07:08 AM

like i said to a fault....

mikell, thank you for that - I appreciate it, and it wasn't necessary for you to say that. There are a couple of things I want to clarify though.
......................all the other stuff she wrote.....................

yea i did have to say that, i owe you that much.

.................................beginning........ .............
i pulled an example of sillly misogynistic stuff thats seen here:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?236875-Let-s-play-a-game-you-know-you-re-a-girl-when
sorry to the OP for singling out this thread, like i said crossdressing is fun.
and another ….
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?229189-If-you-were-a-girl
silly stuff. again sorry to the OP.
has anyone been to the picture forum, look at the posts of those who present sexy to the amount of posts to the plain janes and then to the ones no one posts to, see....we fall all over ourselves to post in the pretty girls threads, how manly. hands up, ive done it too...
....................end.......................

i pulled the part of this quote and placed it in better context, like i said my brain hurts....better by pfizer stock.....

Tina_gm

05-14-2016, 08:29 AM

FTR- my comment "don't stop taking your hormones" was not directed at Zooey, or anyone in particular. Just anyone who is or has transitioned and does not want to be considered part of transgender anymore. I am going to try an analogy. Bare with me, its early and I am dealing with some sinus allergy stuff this am, so this may come off a bit weird ok.

Let's say we are all just by being born put into the "gender building" Cis gender is on the bottom floor, a huge lobby and that is where a vast majority of people are.
Then you have those who don't feel right being in the lobby. There is only one elevator that goes up. Anyone who feels the need to go to a higher floor has to take the one elevator.
On the 1st few floors are the "just a crossdresser" dude in a dress. They like the dressing, maybe some feminine like behaviors associated, maybe they like the sexual feelings, whatever, but they still identify as the gender they were born as.
Some, most will 1st get off on those 1st few floors. Hey, the closer you are to the lobby, the more "normal" you are, and heights can be scary for most too. We don't want to go higher if we don't have to.
for some of us, those 1st few floors don't match who we are either, so we get back in the elevator, and go up to the middle floors. Here, still crossdressed, but the gender now is not defined so clearly. It can be confusing in these middle floors. Not really men, not really women either. A little of both, or neither perhaps. In these middle floors there are also a few side rooms, non binary etc etc. Here in these middle floors you will find a lot of people that don't always know if they should go up higher, go back down lower, or stay where they are.
(you do get some of the people who are on the lower floors who will ride up toward the top or the very top) and "think" because they got on the elevator and that they dress, they are more like the people who are up on the higher or top floors. In reality though, they really aren't.
So some will find where they need to be on the middle floors, but others will figure out they still need to go to a higher floor still. So back in the elevator they go.... and now it is really getting up there, toward the top. A few floors below the top, close to being a woman, definitely more like a woman than a man, but not all the way there, don't need the surgeries and what not. Probably a very confusing place as well I would imagine. Still there are those that know they need the penthouse suite, the top floor, women only.

We are in a sense all the same in that we all must get on the elevator to get to a different floor than all of those that are in the lobby. the fact that we are above the lobby makes us connected simply by being higher. We are all different in that we have a floor that is best for who we are. It can be confusing as to which floor we need to be on at times. Sometimes we go higher than we really need to be and then can go back down to a floor that better suits us. Sometimes we need to see the view of the higher floors to see if that is where we need to be, realize it is too high, and go back down a few floors.

We should recognize we are all different, even those who are on the same floor. Recognize and respect those differences. We should definitely respect the differences of those on higher or lower floors, and not feel we are better because we are on a higher or lower floor, or even the huge crowd of people in the lobby for that matter. None of us as humans are "better" than any other due to which floor we are on. Granted, there are a lot of people in the lobby who will feel they are superior people because they never got on the elevator. But that is their problem not ours, so long as we do not allow them to dictate where we go.

Occasionally, someone from the penthouse may have to put someone from one of the lower levels back in their place, but hopefully let them know too that hey, if you ever feel you need to be here, I will be here to help you. It is a long way up, and a lot to go through to get here. Just be sure you are ready to be here. Same goes for the confusing middle floors. Same goes for the lower floors.

To those on the ground floor, anyone who gets in the elevator becomes "one of them" to us, we can also say, "you are one of us", by virtue of being above the ground floor. We can help each other find which floor is best suited for each other. Some will stop at every floor, others will shoot up to the top hardly stopping at any floor. No matter which floor we are on, we can still be friends with anyone on any floor, even those who are ok with us down in the lobby.

Tracii G

05-14-2016, 08:56 AM

GM its the ones that shoot up to the top hardly stopping that seem to forget there are other floors or levels in the building.
If you are not on their level somehow you are not authentic.
I can safely say the most hateful comments I have gotten on here have come from post ops and I really hate to say it but I wonder if they will ever be happy in their lives.
If you will notice they even fight among themselves in threads.

Sally60

05-14-2016, 09:26 AM

I love your analogy; it makes perfect sense to me. I'm thinking maybe my husband is just as confused as I am (he's stuck somewhere in the middle). Maybe?

Tina_gm

05-14-2016, 09:49 AM

Tracii, I think that is just part of what happens to humans in general, sadly. They get to the top of wherever, whatever, and an elitist mentality takes over. I have been a member of a fairly prestigious golf club. For me, it was all about playing the course, and I didn't associate much with most other members. I did notice though, a sense of coldness among many of them. A constant background upsmanship among them.

When I live in CA some 30 years ago, I lived near my aunt and uncle. None of us had any money at the time. But many saturday nights, we would play these epic games of pitch. we played in teams for nickles. Drank copious amounts of wine out of the box. My uncle has now passed on, but I remember one particular night, the wine was flowing, he was my partner, maxes out the bid... he leads out with a Jack, looks at me and says, I am going to need a lot of help partner. I laugh and cry still thinking of those memories. We had nothing but each other and it was some of the funnest times of my life.

- - - Updated - - -

I certainly cannot guarantee anything Sally, but it is likely. In my analogy, you will find a great many CDers on the lower levels, very fetish oriented, and typically the ones who become the girl for the night or however long. They really transform into this"other" person. They often have different likes or tastes in just about everything. Almost like a split personality, but not always. When you get to the middle area, I think that is when it is most confusing. You feel (at least I do) a sense of both, a connection to both. It is like gender equilibrium, or a lack of at times. I have considered transition. For me, it seemed more terrorizing then staying where I am. But some will end up going up to the top too though. I don't want to put any false hope or expectations on you or him.

becky77

05-14-2016, 09:54 AM

Tracii you're generalising now.
I know of TS that have never been through any crossdressing stage, some go through surgery and move on and yet never wear feminine clothing.
They have zero connection with Crossdressers so why would they feel kinship? I'm not condoning there attitude if it's rude but you are also coming across as strong willed.

GM the analogy though I get what you are saying doesn't work.
For example this idea we (as in me TS) live in the Penthouse like some elite level to aspire to is just plain wrong and a frequent ideology here.
All I want to do is go back down to the lobby with minimum fuss. If I was ever on the middle floors it was because I got lost.
Feels like I'm now really happy in the lobby but for a few middle floorers who keep coming down telling me I belong with them?
Yet if I say well I like the people on the middle floors but it's not where I belong I get accused of being elitist or arrogant. Nearly always by the few who are insecure where they belong and are projecting.

There are so many CDers that state they are only in it for the clothes and don't want any connection with being TS, I don't take offense to that.

mechamoose

05-14-2016, 10:07 AM

Because it is easy?

I'm all in for the gay/bi/trans confuseatron.

We center to our own interests.

- MM

Tina_gm

05-14-2016, 10:27 AM

Becky, it is all virtual reality anyway, my analogy, but the point being is that you are not a cisgender person, nor will you ever be. You had to get on that elevator in order to transition. Maybe you or others never stopped on the other floors. Some don't, I get that. But still, you, or they had to make many modifications in order to be who you really are internally. Or I suppose you can make none at all... There are some who don't make any modifications, not HRT, or surgery of any kind and just live as a woman socially. That is a choice they make, but they have xy chromosomes. For most who are TS and to physically transition, HRT must continue due to the xy chromosome. Like a recovering alcoholic. Once an alcoholic, you are always an alcoholic, regardless if you are drinking or not. Some may choose a lifelong recovery through AA, others do not, but they are always an alcoholic.

This thought of well, I have transitioned, so TG doesn't apply to me anymore is false IMO. You can successfully transition to match your internal identity, and live totally as a woman in all aspects, and be considered as one, but you are still and always TG.

KittyD

05-14-2016, 10:38 AM

I always think along the lines of people as flavours...!
Some of us are sweet to taste and very nice, while some of us are very bitter and sour so I just spit those ones back out...
I like the sweet ones, there the best ones :)

Kate D

CONSUELO

05-14-2016, 11:13 AM

I seem to have started something here. Some good discussion and thanks to all who have contributed.

I would like to add one point of clarification. Toleration does not mean that we suppress our own opinions. I am glad of the wide variety of opinions expressed here. However in expressing our opinions I make a plea for gentleness.
In Texas at the moment there is a raging debate over transgender schoolchildren being able to use the bathroom of the gender they feel they belong to. Reading the comments of those opposed one could mistakenly believe that the end of the world as we know it is at hand and using a restroom risks a violent sexual assault. Forgotten in all this are the needs of a tiny minority of harmless children who are desperately trying to understand themselves and survive against the climate of bullying and distrust.

Krististeph

05-14-2016, 11:27 AM

the idea of 'tolerance' is insipidly hypocritical.

Who the heck are you to 'tolerate' me?

dripping condescension..

Tracii G

05-14-2016, 11:48 AM

Alice Torn

05-14-2016, 12:07 PM

Gendermutt, Your analogy is excellent ! Shows our situations, as different floors exactly, as i see it. i wonder if your building is one of Trump Towers? Maybe he came up with the analogy originally!?LOL

Nigella

05-14-2016, 12:36 PM

Becky what is wrong with being strong willed?
I never went out of my way to be mean in the TS forum I had honest questions and out of nowhere I was slammed hard by a whole gaggle of you girls.
I backed out and thought holy crap I'm not wanted here and if this is what transition is like no thanks.Constant back biting each other I saw as well.
Not sure if HRT causes that or you think thats normal female behavior so you all do it I don't know.
I looked to you girls for info and wanted to get to know some of you so I could understand more about how you get thru it all. I got treated like I didn't belong to the "club"
and y'all didn't want me in the "club".
Still to this day that has been a huge factor for me not pursuing transition.

Would love to know what questions you have asked, you have never started a thread in the TS forum, with the exception of two in TS body issues, which would, under todays rules, be deleted as they are not TS body issues.

The TS forum is harsh in its dealings, but if you think that area is mean, then wait while you start to live in a world populated by cis people who will not see you as a woman p

Tina_gm

05-14-2016, 01:38 PM

Nigella, is it a marine boot camp type of mindset? Because what is out there which is so tough that you are putting each other through some ringer, some trial by fire kinda thing? I am left wondering that maybe there are a lot of TG people who are just not sure where they stand, and when they look into the possibility of TS and see all of the harshness, the negativity, that maybe they turn away from that as it looks so cold and unappealing. Someone could possibly think, on their own discovery, that they seem to relate to being TS, but when they see the forums for TS, they think, no thanks, that's just too much misery for me. They possibly see transition as not a better alternative, even though for them it really is. They are just being presented with misery no matter where they turn....

Dana44

05-14-2016, 01:56 PM

Tolerance? My goodness, The TS and TG are trying to find intolerance in this thread, Hey we are all in the same boat on planet Earth. We are spirits in a physical body. We should all have tolerance for each other. The TS thinks they have gone through fire to get where they are and come down on us in the middle of the TG group as though we are lying abut what we are. But how much fire have we all gone though. If you have not walked in our shoes, why do you have intolerance for us. You are the same as us and we do need to support each other. Goodness, does estrogen do that to you? Why are we so different? I think we could all sit down and have a beer together and get along just fine. Nobody is any better than anybody else. So lets find tolerance in each other.

Teresa

05-14-2016, 01:56 PM

Krististeph,
It's hardly what the OP is saying, if we all had that attitude it really would be a crappy World, we all have to exercise tolerance everyday of the week.
Do you drive a car with that kind of thinking ?

Gendermutt,
I'm not sure if I go along with the elevator idea but one thing you forgot is at what level does the pink fog start ?

I may be inclined to agree with Becky, we may all like to be on the ground floor in the large lobby but with total acceptance of where we are on the TG spectrum ! Accepting we live on different levels is only going to segregate us, when most of us really want to integrate and pass .

Nigella

05-14-2016, 01:58 PM

GM

The TS forum has its highs and lows, my transition was one of the easiest known on that forum, but most of what members like me have to share is lost in what the majority of TSs have to deal with.

I'm sorry if people cannot stand harsh WORDS which can be read in so many ways and more often than not, not the way they were intended. Heck you can read a post after a hard day, full of stress and read one thing into it, then maybe next day, after a relaxing night, maybe a few beers, read the same post and read it totally different.

In real life, those harsh words can and do manifest themselves into harsh knocks, you only have to look at the current legislation being passed in some of the states. IF a member believes they are TS, lets face it who are we to say they are not, then they get REAL LIFE experience shared by those who have gone before, more often than not this is in a negative way as that is the predominant experience.

Do you think we would be doing anyone a favour saying, Yea Girl, go for it, its a doddle this transitioning thing. Sorry, but none of us believe that.

Zooey

05-14-2016, 02:00 PM

GM: I think your analogy is a bit flawed. As Becky pointed out, we're not on "top" of anything.

To modify it slightly, there are a couple of big apartment buildings in our neighborhood, and there are people living in all of them. There's a building full of men - non-CDs on the west side, and CDs on the east side.

Similarly, there's a building full of women. TS women live on the bottom floors of that building. Sometimes a few residents on the upper floors complain and we end up in the basement for a bit.

In between those two buildings are a bunch of single family homes, each decorated uniquely.

Most of the people from the CD portion of the men's building shop at the same stores as the residents of the women's building. Some of them belong to the same book club.

Very occasionally, somebody finds out they've been living in the wrong building and moves. It's a giant pain in the ass though, because there are no moving trucks, and you have to carry everything by hand. Between that and getting your address changed everywhere, moving takes years and years.

So I don't think we're better, and we're certainly not better off. We're rather different though. If we want to hang out and talk about the things we have in common, it's important to acknowledge those differences, and to not assume that we see the same things in at all the same way.

Tina_gm

05-14-2016, 02:33 PM

Sheesh- I give you gals the penthouse suite, with the best views and you are still not happy, if that doesn't prove you really are women, I don't know what does. :tongueout

My analogy is a virtual reality, not a physical segregation, perhaps I should have stated this. It is all about where we are in relation to our internal gender identity. Not that we would or should physically live apart and not mingle with each other.

Teresa, the pink fog makes you get in the elevator and push the up button over and over, When it wears off, you suddenly realize how high you are and then get back in the elevator and push the down button over and over lol.

Nigella, I really am just asking as to the why of the atmosphere. If that is really the best way to deal with the reality of being TS then so be it. Perhaps there does need to be the strongest of realities for the most difficult of journey's. I just can't help thinking though, that the doom and gloom that seems so apparent along with a not very friendly atmosphere for guests really is more of a repellent than it needs to be.

I have stated before, I get frustrated being male. But when reading TS forums, I don't see my life getting any better. I just see it becoming all the more difficult. Reading so much misery, I wonder sometimes why anyone would make the choice to transition. I don't get it, and maybe that's the point I guess. You have to get it to make the choice?

Angie G

05-14-2016, 03:03 PM

I've beenfor 10 years and never picked a any one way of who dresses to what extent. I dress full on most of the time and would tell someone just under dressing is not cressdressing. Or to tell someone full on dressing is over the top. Why do some think there thoughts are the only way to do things. I've seen this all my life. What ever one likes to do is good and if someone thinks it's not then that person can take a walk in my MHO.:hugs:
Angie

becky77

05-14-2016, 03:08 PM

GM that's the point. Transitioning can literally destroy everything you know, losing family and job is unfortunately common.
It's not fun and if it's really not for you then the strong warnings will save you from making a terrible mistake, if you are determined and truly TS you will stick it out in the TS forum and find your place.

At least one person has said going to the TS section put them off transition, really? A few strong opinions on an internet forum stopped you from making a life changing decision?
Then you aren't ready and hopefully you have been saved from making a mistake, because honestly if you think a few opinionated posters are scary that's nothing to the brutality of living full-time.

You simply won't get cheerleading on the TS forum and that's because transition is very serious, it does no-one any favours.

Once someone proves they are beyond ideals and fantasy and ready to take it serious you will find they are accepted. Is it a clique or a group of individuals who understand just what it takes?

Btw I'm assuming people know that TS is different to Transition?

GM I genuinely find alot of your posts interesting and I like how you question and explore things, but as you said when it comes to TS you don't get it.
Look I don't get why a hetero masculine male wants to underdress in panties, but I accept it and I don't think I have ever knocked it because I see nothing wrong, all I say is that I have nothing in common with that person and typically the underdresser doesn't see a connection with being TS.
We can get along but agree we are completely different.

Yet you seem determined to put us all in the same box and that's when it all gets contentious.

Can't we embrace our differences and still get along?

Zooey

05-14-2016, 03:17 PM

I don't get it, and maybe that's the point I guess. You have to get it to make the choice?

That is the closest thing to the truth of it that I've ever seen written here.

When you "get it", it also doesn't really seem like much of a choice. I could describe most of what I think people are referring to when they say we "jump all over everybody that comes into the TS forum" as, "we don't spare words with people who visibly don't get it".

Incidentally, I also think the underlying idea behind your statement applies more broadly than just to transition.

Tracii G

05-14-2016, 04:07 PM

Maybe some body is borderline and wanting info like I was and truly wanting to "get it" and got treated like I was stupid for even asking the question.
That sucks and it still sucks to this day.
Nigella if the TS section is harsh then why is being harsh not OK everywhere else on the site?
I'm not wanted in the TS section I understand that because if I make a comment you always delete it. I get it I'll just stay out and let you be mean to someone else.
Your comment you made in regard to REAL life and predominant experiences of those that have gone on before is where the elitist attitude is and that is why people get so put off by you. You think you ladies would try and help others not run them off.
I really hate to feel this way and know I should be more understanding and tolerant but I'm not the only one that sees it this way so maybe its you and not me that is intolerant.

Zooey

05-14-2016, 04:25 PM

Maybe some body is borderline and wanting info like I was and truly wanting to "get it" and got treated like I was stupid for even asking the question.
That sucks and it still sucks to this day.

I can't find any of those questions by searching, so I have no idea what you asked. Regardless... If you're "wanting to get it", you don't get it. It's like breathing, and I don't believe that the most fundamental aspects of it are learnable or manufacturable. I'm not talking about facts or information or knowledge here. I'm talking about a state of being.

People who don't get it have come in and asked questions without projecting or asserting before, and I've seen perfectly fine discussions with constructive answers happen.

When people who don't get it come in and start trying to debate us into accepting that they do in fact get it, things get contentious. That happens. Sometimes it's a one-off thing, other times it's a persistent thing as somebody feels determined to be in there and make some kind of point.

Nigella if the TS section is harsh then why is being harsh not OK everywhere else on the site?

Judging by recent activity (including this thread), I'm not sure what gives you the impression that being "harsh" (I would say "direct") is disallowed outside of the TS forum.

Edited to add: This feels highly relevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j2Pb0YwVH8

Tracii G

05-14-2016, 05:06 PM

This was so long ago and I'm sure I deleted my comment or it got tucked away somewhere and I'm sure you all are frantically trying to find it and I wish I could help.
Very well could have been a lurker and not a contributing member at the time who knows.
I really don't want this to escalate and get ugly because that helps nobody.
I said my piece as did others of how we feel and I will leave it there and move on.
Zooey ask jenniferathome how it feels to get slapped for being direct and honest other places on this site.
She is just one person I know of that caught hell for being honest.

Tina_gm

05-14-2016, 05:25 PM

Becky, and Zooey, thank you for the compliments you gave me. Although I am not certain as to what box I am putting anyone in. While "I don't get it" lol, (video) I do get that being TS and transition is not one in the same. Transition is an action. It is a choice, even for those who say transition or die, as death would be the other choice. Personally I myself would opt for life.

I can only say for me, that this TG stuff is confusing as all hell to me. It made me consider transitioning. For me, it seemed like a path that would cause more difficulties then what life is now. As for the TS and not transition.... If I were to go to the TS forum and proclaim that I am TS, I am one of you, I am a woman inside.... BUT.... I am going to continue living as a man because wifey won't stay with me, kids won't talk to me if I do, and all of the other hardships that are likely to fall my way, then I would be called out as a fraud, or that I do not get it and shouldn't be there. (this is just a hypothetical btw) so you guys do seem to need quite a bit of proof by action in order to consider someone TS. Not necessarily a full transition, but definitely more than just saying so. Not that I would blame you, I would too.

There is a general feeling though from those who wander in to see what TS is all about, because there are some of us, a lot of us actually, that are caught in some weird in between world. Not just a dude in a dress. We don't really know exactly where we are going with this, what it all means. We do not identify as cis males, that is for certain. But, it is like you guys are putting up some pretty crazy obstacle course to pass in order to gain entrance, then I guess that does make sense. If you are TS and you want it bad enough, you will find a way to make it through the course..... if you can't, well then you shouldn't be there. I guess I get that. I get that I don't get it lol. I would only say that of the many lost souls, the way you guys make transition sound so daunting, it really can make someone think there is no choice in life that will ever make them happy. It will be misery transitioning or not transitioning. It will be misery just to join the ranks of TS. That is how it appears to those on the outside, wanting to look in because they are a little lost and are looking for a little direction.

becky77

05-14-2016, 05:55 PM

GM prepare for the worst and hope for the best :)
But best to strip away any delusions first because if it does blow up in your face you know what to expect, if it works out well and all is happy most of us will be delighted for you.

Tina_gm

05-14-2016, 06:09 PM

Becky, that is pretty much the recipe for life in general lol. I would like to know how I am making you feel that I am putting you all in a box. I can assure you that I do not feel this way, and that it is not intentional. Perhaps poor choice of wording... feel free to pm me if it if you prefer.

Zooey

05-14-2016, 06:57 PM

I would only say that of the many lost souls, the way you guys make transition sound so daunting, it really can make someone think there is no choice in life that will ever make them happy. It will be misery transitioning or not transitioning. It will be misery just to join the ranks of TS. That is how it appears to those on the outside, wanting to look in because they are a little lost and are looking for a little direction.

I can't think of a single active TS poster in the TS forum who isn't happier for having transitioned. If you read often and deeply enough, you'll usually find this caveat sprinkled in amongst the hard stuff.

It's been extremely difficult for all of us, even those of us who have had it "easy" (including me), and new challenges pop up all the time. Some come from within, some from without. Transition is the saddest, hardest, most miserable thing I've ever done. I put my partner before transition through a lot of pain and anguish. I deeply wounded my relationship with my parents, but especially my mom (fortunately it's recovering, albeit slowly). I took away all of my previous "safe places". I lost some friends (made new ones too). I made my love life about 1,000,000 times more difficult.

It's also been - without question - the absolute best and most rewarding thing I've ever done. I honestly can't remember the last time I had really genuinely smiled before transition. For all the misery and pain, I am so much happier now.

If we make it sound miserable, that's because it is miserable in a lot of ways. If it's what you need to do in order to truly be yourself though, then the fact that it's miserable isn't so much of a brick wall as it is a speed bump. We don't cheer people onward into transition, but we do generally celebrate progress once you're on the path.

ReineD

05-14-2016, 10:37 PM

I recently got told by a member here that as a crossdresser, I wasn't "qualified" to use the ladies restroom at Target because I wasn't "transgender". I was told to use the men's room even though I was dressed as and presenting as a woman.

If that was me, although I do think that bathrooms designated for females should only be used by people who identify as female (although if there's no one in them then it's OK :p), I didn't use the word "qualified".

My point was, when someone identifies as male or gender-fluid/gender-neutral, why would they want to use a space that is designated for females, rather than use gender-neutral/single-user spaces.

But back to the topic - I really don't want to turn this into a bathroom thread, although I do want to address a specific example of someone who believes they were treated badly - I'm sorry if you found my opinion bullying or mean. I did not intend to disparage you in any way, by pointing out something that seems logical to me.

Teresa

05-15-2016, 04:48 AM

Zooey,
We have had crossed words before but I totally agree with your last reply, I still can't say for certain how close I am to TS all I know at the moment the balance is on the male side.
The whole TG/CDing /TS is a compromised life style to most of us, you decided to make the trade and follow your inner feelings and you list the losses it incurred.

I nearly took the separation route to live more or less full time and build a life around that, what followed after that I can't say for certain.
Then I realised I had so much I was going to turn my back on and possibly lose, I still have a mother of 86, two children and three grandchildren and a wife who obviously cares. The pain of losing all that to face no guarantees of happiness and more likely isolation especially now I'm in my mid sixties was too much .
Those who do make the decision to align mind and body are very brave people, but sadly not always happy ones but please don't think some of us don't understand . I still can't say NO TO TS 100% , in this community the decisions are hard ones to get right , I know I'm going to have live with the compromise I've chosen and try and retain the good things outside my CDing.

Nikki.

05-15-2016, 08:56 AM

All humans engage in cost benefit analysis over most decisions we make. Some people on here likely have never entertained the thought of transitioning. The majority probably have. As I wrote in another post, I did in my 20's when the pink fog would visit. For me, though I didn't know the mental process I was using was cost benefit analysis, I certainly engaged in it. The benefits (living in what I thought might be my true gender identity and alleviating dysphoria) were far less than the costs (a multitude of various costs; most of those I still remember were accurate estimates of the likely impact to my life). So I moved on, the dysphoria lessened over time, and it became obvious it was the right decision. Even back then I had far less dysphoria than what I've read those who transition had.

My point is that most of the people on this board have engaged in cost benefit analysis regarding transition. Many dismiss it out of hand quickly as for them the costs greatly exceed the benefits. For a few, the benefits are greater than the costs and they move forward. Overall, we have much in common, the Venn diagram of our overlapping circles is large. To be dismissive of how anyone actualizes their gender expression can be pretty hurtful. Most of us aren't super stoked about being this way in the first place. As time progresses many try to look at the positive aspects as they accept it. The alternative blows.

If someone here puts on panties and fake boobs while singing I feel pretty, and feels they are in someway experiencing a bit of womanhood, who is anyone to judge? I'm not inside their head. When I dress up, I don't feel like my inner woman is being set free. I don't have an inner woman. I feel like a guy in makeup and woman's clothing. YMMV. I imagine there are plenty of GG's who are dismissive of transwomen, thinking and or saying "well they may have the parts now, but they didn't grow up as a female and they certainly don't understand or experience what a real woman does". If I was TS or had transitioned, I imagine I would find that to be dismissive of my experience and hurtful. Probably very hurtful. Similar to what some CD's feel when transitioned are dismissive of their feelings and experiences.

;)

Krististeph

05-15-2016, 09:28 AM

Tracii G

05-15-2016, 12:11 PM

What i mean is that by definition, if I tolerate your beliefs or way of life, i accept your differences. But that means I am judging your ways against mine, and finding them inferior, but i'll accept you because i am tolerant.

Krististeph this is where everybody misses the boat just because you accept and tolerate something or someone its just that nothing more nothing less.
Its the liberal (social ) mindset that some have that just because you feel a certain way also means something else as proven by your comment saying "but that means I am judging your ways against mine and finding them inferior.
Just because you do something doesn't mean something else has to be involved.
If I get involved in a discussion with a person of this mindset (SJW) if I say something their retort is always so what you are really saying is (fill in the blank here) and I reply no what I said is what I typed not what you are trying to say I said.

Kelly Whelan

05-15-2016, 01:23 PM

I'm going on a tangent Teresa, and perhaps i was not addressing the proper definition of the word, but what it has evolved into:

The general idea of 'tolerance' is a wonderful, but it seems to end up being applied poorly:

What i mean is that by definition, if I tolerate your beliefs or way of life, i accept your differences. But that means I am judging your ways against mine, and finding them inferior, but i'll accept you because i am tolerant.

The high-mindedness of 'allowing' something is what gets me-- am i communicating the idea clearly? It seems there is a better way to say this, feel free to help me out here...

I get what you're saying completely. I haven't been following this thread from the start so I don't want to hijack it anymore times than it might have already been. But there is another discussion we could have on the issue. When some people say they tolerate someone or something they disagree with, dislike or just find bizarre, they do so because the ideology of tolerance tells them so. It's not always the case that they become tolerant because they made an effort to understand the issue. This way, people can have it both ways. They can feel a little bit superior while at the same time putting out the virtue signals. I have had this from some friends and family that know I CD.

Krististeph

05-15-2016, 01:41 PM

exactly the point i am aiming for Kelly. You grok (reference: heinlein). Of course, not all people are 'tolerant' some people are more accepting. Thank you for replying- and bolstering this idea. You understood my meaning when i was not fully clear: thanks for elucidating the idea!!

Kelly Whelan

05-15-2016, 02:12 PM

The other side of this is that you can be totally accepting of something without having to necessarily like it. Sexuality is a good example. You don't have to be attracted to people of your own gender to be gay friendly or accepting of homosexuality. I've met fellow CDs in gay clubs that find the sight of two men making to be a bit of a turn off, but that never changed their accepting view of homosexuality.

Avoiding more serious issues to illustrate a few points: I like certain sports more than others but I don't begrudge people their right to play or follow the ones lower down on my list, and I don't perceive them as following a lesser version of the real thing. The reason for this is that I am not really into sports as a whole.

I can however be a bit of an elitist snob when it comes to music and literature. I'm a musician and a writer, and both (especially music) are a big deal to me. What some people call music and what some people call literature kind of bugs me more than it used to. I'm sure that most of us could find an area of life that we do harbour a certain sense of superiority and moral high ground even if we consider ourselves to be fundamentally tolerant.

mykell

05-15-2016, 02:35 PM

tolerance :noun....
1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, beliefs, practices, racial or ethnic origins, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions, beliefs, and practices that differ from one's own.

3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.

Krististeph

05-15-2016, 03:21 PM

When the word 'tolerance' is used- it is rarely in the mien of the dictionary definition.

The etymology of the word is 'to endure' which engenders 'persevere' meanig: deal with a problem.

So this is my problem with 'tolerance'. I am not a problem. Period.

Zooey

05-15-2016, 04:08 PM

There's a lot I would love to say in response to some of the recent posts here, but I will just say this... Plain Talk Warning™ right now, just like you get in the TS forum, and I'm speaking only for myself here.

I do not believe that I am dismissive of your experiences. I think it's great that you have them, whatever they are. In many cases, as is the case with some of the "fluid" folks here, I truly and honestly want to understand your experiences better, because they are often foreign to me.

If I seem dismissive (I wouldn't use that word) to you, it's because I object to the insistence on equating our experiences. I personally do not believe that a "serious CD'ing man" is an "85% TS woman". That's "100% BS", IMO. You can just be a serious CD, and feel whatever you want, without having to try and assert that it's the same thing as being a woman. We will sometimes have similar experiences in terms of the facts (e.g. "I wore women's running gear today"), but the interpretation and reality of those experiences is very visibly different in most cases.

I object to the notion that those of you who "did the cost benefit analysis" or "just chose not to do it" are on the same page as those of us who transition. NOT because I'm better or superior in any way, but because from where I sit, I'm different. If you have a choice, we're not the same. Once I connected the dots in my life, there was no choice. I do not "desire to live as a woman' or 'desire to have a feminine body". I "need to live the correct life", and I "need to have the correct body". The question was never "is it worth it?" The question was "how much collateral damage can I prevent along the way (if any)?"

If you are capable of living as a man, then we are very different in some rather fundamental ways. Not better or worse, but very different.

Some of you may in fact be women, and you haven't connected the dots yet. To those of you in that boat, I am truly sorry, for a variety of reasons. Chief among them is what's in store for you when you do.

Tracii G

05-15-2016, 04:21 PM

I think we all feel different from the ideas of the regular cis world out there Zooey.
You are on one end of the spectrum and someone else may be on the other so yes you are not the same but then again are you really that much different?
You feel and live as a woman I feel the same inside as you do and present more female than male and yes we are different but not that much different.
We both have our original equipment.

Nikki.

05-15-2016, 04:42 PM

I agree that we are very different in that the concept of transition crossed my mind off and on, I thought and reflected upon it, then put it aside and moved on. As such it would have been a tragic path for me. Quite obviously you did not. And while I'm not in your head, based on what you've written here and your blog, it was the only option for you. Regarding cost benefit analysis, only you know for certain, but unless one is completely impulse driven, we all do cost benefit analysis when considering alternatives and make decisions. About pretty much everything.

I actually appreciate your direct style of communication. I don't care what anyone thinks about my cd activities except my wife, and haven't revealed much here about what I like to do. as such I wasn't personally offended by anything you wrote. Now for the however: Regardless of intent, imho, some of your posts do come across as dismissive of CD's. I'm not going to go back and parse and quote specific posts, but it's the general flavor I come away with. I believe you that it's not your intent, other than regarding specific behaviors or actions you find offensive. Like I wrote above, you seem direct in your communication style and I think if you were actually dismissive of cd's, you would say so. But sometimes it comes across that way, at least to me.

Zooey

05-15-2016, 05:10 PM

We both have our original equipment.

True in some ways, not true in a lot more. For one, my "equipment" has an expiration date, still being negotiated due to the practicalities of its replacement procedure.

Beyond that, HRT is a hell of a thing. I would not argue with anybody as to what anatomical bits currently live down there, but they are completely different than they used to be. They work differently, insofar as from a male perspective, they don't really work. The "main event" is about 25% of what it used to be, and their little pals are closer to 1/8th. I don't own a vagina yet, but I don't really have very functional male genitalia either. Peeing standing up would be pretty difficult/messy, if I had any inclination to try. I don't tuck, and I went running in thin leggings today.

There's a whole new realm of experiences though, and I don't miss any of the old functionality.

Tina_gm

05-15-2016, 05:14 PM

I think at some point we are going to have to agree to disagree, or something like that. But, regardless of our differences, or not differences but we think they are, or don't think they are but they are. ah hell, I don't get it.... Now I get it, that I don't get it lol. IMO-------- Tolerate, to tolerate, tolerating..... Someone is or does something that I personally would not do, do not believe is right.... errrr for me. So, I could choose to totally take this person out of my life..... Or, maybe I work with them. Maybe I am a child of them, or a parent of them, or a brother or sister, or in law, or step..... I could still choose to take them out of my life, but is that really the best course of action? Or perhaps I could just tolerate that which I do not like, or believe in, and enjoy the all the rest of them.

Tracii G

05-15-2016, 05:22 PM

Zooey I'm not knocking you for having one of those things at all and that is totally your choice I wish mine wasn't there either.
We are different in many ways but not all that different LOL
Its all good I harbor no animosity towards anyone for who they are.

heatherdress

05-16-2016, 07:35 PM

I don't speak for all women. I speak for me. Anytime I've suggested that other women might feel similarly it's because I know some who do, but in no way shape or form do I speak for all women, or even all trans women, on any issue.

When I say things that seem/are negative, no - I don't think I'm contributing positively. Most of the time, it's me trying to point out something else negative that was going on.

I'm not sure how carefully you read my post, but regardless... I don't believe that being a crossdressing man is a bad thing. I believe it is a perfectly fine thing. You can talk all you want about how you relate to your brand of femininity, and it doesn't bother me a bit. I can even abide the fantasies and the fetishization without jumping into threads, no matter how uncomfortable it makes me.

When you cross the line into talking about actual women through that lens though, and when you say misogynistic/offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive things as a result, that's a problem. It's especially problematic for me when at the same time you're claiming some deeper understanding of women because of all of this. That happens a lot, and I suspect most of you don't even realize how often you do it. You know nothing, Jon Snow. There are women here - trans and cis - and this is the big melting pot forum on this site. There is a private forum for genetic males (GM) if you want to be only amongst yourselves. Here, there are women around.

Wanting or wishing for the support of the women in your life is a really common theme here. I would humbly suggest that if you, with respect your crossdressing, expressed an attitude about femininity and women that was a bit less demeaning and a bit more respectful of the women so many of you love to emulate, you might find that you start accumulating more support.

Some CDs here do just that. AFAICT, most don't.

How could you possibly criticize crossdressers and tell them how to gain the support of their loved ones with any credibility or understanding? You are neither a crossdresser or a spouse or girlfriend involved with a crossdresser. Why do you have "problems" with crossdresser's dreams and fantasies, even if off-target in your opinion, and you certainly are opinionated. Your anger is apparent and you vent - on us, crossdressers. Instead of continuing to attack crossdressers, and instead of continuing to display your anger attacking and trying to invalidate everyone's opinion, can't you share sentiments which might be helpful to others? You are being hypocritical when you attack others for being offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive and in so doing, are offensive/hurtful/demeaning/dismissive to them.

Zooey

05-16-2016, 11:23 PM

I'm curious - why did you respond to/quote that particular post again? You'd actually already responded to it on page 1 of this thread.

At any rate... I'm not angry. If you think this is me angry then I sincerely hope I never actually get angry here. You certainly do seem angry, or at least really agitated, and I'm sorry for my part in that.

As I've said many times in this thread, I don't have problems with CDs having their dreams and fantasies. I don't really care for most of them, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with you having them. I have a problem, or at least think it's inappropriate, when CDs try to equate those dreams and fantasies with the actual experiences of women.

I'm not going to get any deeper into this stuff again in this thread, because I feel like I've already stated my case well enough and at this point you either get what I'm trying to say or you don't. Perhaps another time, in another thread... Maybe I'll start one.

Tina_gm

05-17-2016, 02:31 PM

I think when it comes to the different aspects of gender variance, the tolerance issue comes into play when there is a feeling of being marginalized. I think all sides are guilty of this, although I think most of us are not necessarily intending to do so. It may be because of blissful ignorance, or lack of knowledge when we are seeking it, or who knows why, but I think the problems and negative emotions hit when we do feel this feeling of being marginalized.

I can see where someone who is TS and going through preparations to transition, social transition.... going through issues with their partners and other family members, and along comes a CDer who proclaims that they are just the same BUT, their circumstance prevents them from doing so, or worse, that they will say something like, I love my wife too much to transition and gutting it out.... YIKES, because I can see right there how that is going to make someone who is going through all of what they are feel marginalized. On the same token though, not ALL of us who are not TS are simply dudes in a dress, getting our jollies from wearing panties to bed, or prancing around in 5 inch heels or whatever. We too have our own gender issues, and it is powerful enough that we buck society and have most of the world against us. I am not in any way saying it equates. I am just saying it is powerful enough to make us go against the grain and take a lot difficulty in itself.

Teresa

05-17-2016, 06:35 PM

Zooey,
I do sympathise with Heatherdress's comments, I have had your some of your harsh comments, but that's history now .
I feel the thing you fail to understand is having all this hit when you're later in life, been married forty years and have children and grandchildren to consider, that' s quite a loss to consider and walk away from, I chose to stay as I am because I think more of them than myself . Please don't give me if I really wanted to be a woman all that wouldn't stand in my way , I also know what it's like to have something tear me apart inside, but I have to accept that total happiness won't be found in going down the transition road. You make that abundantly clear in the way you write your replies as do so many others in the TS section, but I do object to the impression you give that JUST CDers don't understand, many of us do but we have to get our priorities right .

Zooey

05-17-2016, 09:52 PM

First of all, I just want to say that I'm talking directly to Teresa. Nobody else, including heatherdress. Many of you have disagreed with me, and that's totally fine. IMO, the vast majority of you were generally respectful about the way you talked about your issues with what I have to say, and I hope you know that I tried to do the same in return.

Second, if you wanted to see me angry... Good work, Teresa. NOW I'm angry.

I feel the thing you fail to understand is having all this hit when you're later in life, been married forty years and have children and grandchildren to consider, that' s quite a loss to consider and walk away from, I chose to stay as I am because I think more of them than myself . Please don't give me if I really wanted to be a woman all that wouldn't stand in my way , I also know what it's like to have something tear me apart inside, but I have to accept that total happiness won't be found in going down the transition road. You make that abundantly clear in the way you write your replies as do so many others in the TS section, but I do object to the impression you give that JUST CDers don't understand, many of us do but we have to get our priorities right .

Oh, I'm soooo sorry... You're right. I have no idea what such a loss would be like, and - oh! - we're totally the same but you just have your priorities right... I guess my priorities were wrong! THANK YOU, that clears up so much.

I transitioned at 35, and all I had to deal with was...

Destroying a loving relationship of 10 years with a partner I could have easily spent the rest of my life with
Sending my mom into a deep depression and crippling our relationship, to where it's only gotten to the point where we can have "mostly respectful" conversations after 1.5 years
Causing my dad to spend countless nights questioning what he did wrong, in spite of his best efforts at support for me
Sending my brother, who was already dealing with severe depression, into an even deeper depression for months
Losing 3/4 of my extended family in an instant
Putting my long-term career growth in jeopardy
Reducing the chances of finding another loving, respectful, and accepting partner - yes, even in the SF bay area - exponentially
Undergoing hours and hours and hours and hours of excruciatingly painful procedures
...and more!

I'm just getting started. Should I go on? Probably not necessary. You know what? It was all worth it. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. BTW, I've had it EASY. I'm extraordinarily thankful that suicide doesn't appear on my list. It appears on a lot of our lists.

You do not understand. If you understood, you would not write what you wrote. You would not play the, "Oh, but you don't know how hard it would be for me" card, or the "Oh, but I love the people in my life so much, and just couldn't possibly" card, or the dozens of other versions that i've seen here.

It's BS. Unmitigated BS.

I loved the people in my life that I lost. A lot. Truly, madly, deeply. When you say what you said, you accuse me of not understanding love the way you do, and you can forget about that. I've read your neverending saga - people living in extra-brittle glass houses would be advised not to throw stones.

"Total happiness" is a fantasy. "Total misery" is a reality, that fortunately in my case was addressable, and I did what I had to do in order to fix it. I had and have what most would consider a good life, but I wasn't really living it before, and so it was terrible even when I didn't realize just how cold and shut off from the world I actually was. I am actually happy now, and I'm finally living my life.

It was not a choice, and if you understood, you would respect that. If you were in my shoes, it wouldn't have been a choice for you either. I'm thrilled for you that you have a choice. I think a lot of us who transition wish we'd had a choice.

You do not understand. I'm not saying your life is all sunshine and lollipops, but holy sweet god damn, you need to check yourself.

And with that, I'm well and truly done with this. Best of luck.

Teresa

05-18-2016, 12:58 AM

Zooey,
You make your point, I could have also had a list like yours , how much damage might have been done or who knows could still be done if I took that option. Your anger is not meant for me but obviously bottled up inside and can't vent with anyone else but members of the forum. I'm twice your age, of course I have to get my priorities right , you had a different decision to make than mine and you thought you got your priorities right. Like I've said before whatever we chose to do has to be a compromise,the point is if you feel you've got it wrong don't take it out on others. Show us how happy you are with going that route rather than venting on us for thinking we're gutless Cders !!
As I also said many of us do understand the implications of transition we're not oblivious to it

flatlander_48

05-18-2016, 01:00 AM

The TS forum is harsh in its dealings, but if you think that area is mean, then wait while you start to live in a world populated by cis people who will not see you as a woman p

No doubt that IS difficult. Then again, so is living for 67 years in a culture where many don't see me as another human being or 43 years in a profession where very few look like me. We're both dealing with factors that we cannot change. That is the reality we live with every day. As I've said here many times, we are ALL struggling with SOMETHING.

Personally, I have had many experiences that a lot of people here have not had. This allows me a different perspective on events and thoughts here. On occasion I've mentioned the source of my perspectives and often people choose to discount it. It's funny that they can't argue a given point, they just seem to want to discount what I've said. So, a quick recap is this:

20 years involvement with corporate employee resource groups (sometimes known as diversity groups or employee affinity groups)
Active member of the LGBT group for 12 years
6 years expatriate experience in Taiwan
In my career of 43 years, I worked with people from 18 different countries
Functions include individual contributor, project leadership and supervision
Several terms as a Presbyterian church Trustee
father of 2 grown children from 1st marriage
Grandfather of 2
Married to 2nd wife who knows all about DeeAnn
Bisexual identity from ~2000
Transgender identity from ~2014
Came out to 200+ people in October of 2015 including my daughter and son, 8 close friends and my then department manager
Retired 4 months ago
Getting started with one of the transgender groups in my new hometown and looking to see where I can contribute

Anyway, I say all this to point up that my journey probably looks a lot different from most. While I do claim some degree of dysphoria, I now realize that it has been lurking in the background for a LONG time. But, it isn't sufficient to warrant transition and appears to be stable and non-fluid. The time that I am able to spend as DeeAnn seems to be enough to maintain the balance.

Further, claiming bisexual and transgender identities puts me in sort of a unique position. From the middle, I can see both ends. The unfortunate thing is that you get denials of existence from both of the extremities. They can't seem to accept that you're neither This nor That; you encompass both.

So, there are some things about the transsexual community that do not make sense to me. When I've brought this up, it tends to be not received well (reference the discounting mentioned above).

I've asked why is there so little alignment with the rest of the community by the transsexual part. Basically, is there no way to rally around common interests? The response is that there is essentially no common ground and it would compromise (steal) their identity as trans women. But (the voice of personal experience), the success of activism is rooted in Strength Of Numbers. It's easy to drown out a few voices, but it's much harder when there are MANY. Evidently that's not compelling enough. Anyway, I'm not seeing how it would steal one's identity. Reveal perhaps, but not steal.
From observation and from people I know, transition is simply a Very Difficult Process and in terms of time, an extended one. It chews through personal and financial resources, relationships, goodwill and mental slack, indiscriminately. Obviously it is a distinctly non-trivial path. It is understandable why folks choose to try to fit within the confines of a regular life in the aftermath. But, what I can't understand is how they expect things to get better and who they think will pick up the banner. How would you expect someone to fight for you if you are not willing to fight yourself? Are you really willing to let this rash of Bathroom Bills go? Remember that even if you have fully transitioned, if you are from Idaho, Kansas, Ohio or Tennessee, you CANNOT change the gender marker on your Birth Certificate. Until laws change, if they ever will, you are screwed.

DeeAnn

Tracii G

05-18-2016, 01:23 AM

Teresa just because you are twice her age doesn't make you right and her wrong.
I do think her anger was pointed at you because you popped off in a very arrogant way.
I will leave it at that and back out of this discussion.

Alice Torn

05-18-2016, 02:24 AM

My father never wanted sons, my mom said, before she died yrs ago. My alcoholic, anti social father, grudgingly, stayed with my mom, who had almos nothing in common with him. She said she married him out of pity. he "tolerated": his sons, and especially me, the last born, "mistake". I started to have Cd ideas at a young age, and at age 13, or 14, raided my sister and moms clothes. I think my dad not liking sons, had something to do with it. he spoiled my sister. For the past six years, I have been forced to take care of my father, even though he always resented me being born. I have hated having to leave my business, friends, and life near Seattle, to move to redneck area to return to the hellish family i escaped from in 1981. I cannot say i accept my dad or siblings, or being born into such extreme dysfunction. "Tolerance" is about the best i, and other members of my toxic "fusion" family do. There is no real love, or acceptance much, if at all. I have gone to 12 step groups off and on for 31 years, prayed, struggled, .seen therapists, counselors, cried, and died a thousand deaths, having to care for my bitter father, and cruel siblings, who still want the worst for me. Tolerance has not been at all easy, and i hope like hell, i can scrape enough funds to actually move further away from them, after he dies, and cut off ties. They ruined my life, but toleratance is all i can say i ahave, and a small acceptance, but may life has been fouled up, and years taken off my life, from the emotional hell for so long. I think , with flawed human nature, as natual hostility for others, tolerance for neighbors, other drivers, work mates, so much indifference and disagreement, in the human realm, it amazes me, that everyone is not at each other's throats more! I am amazed there still is as much tolerance on this site, and everywhere else there are people. Maybe that is why pets are so popular, and so many of us have pets, and not SOs or spouses. Life is bloody hard, and tolerance sometimes is the best any of us can do.

becky77

05-18-2016, 02:37 AM

JUST CDers don't understand, many of us do but we have to get our priorities right .
That's why you are not the same, obviously you will never understand.
Nothing to do with Zooey being truly hurt that you just completely dismissed the pain she was in to make such a severe change and risk everything she has achieved up till that point.
No it's far easier to just think of her as arrogant and elitist. If anyone ever wonders why we distance ourselves from non-transitioned speak to Teresa.
No wonder the suicide rate is so high, far kinder to be found dead from say depression than watch your family and financial income torn to shreds only for the rest of the 'Community' to dismiss it as 'Priorities' as in selfish.
"Well wifey I'm just the SAME as that terribly selfish TS person except I would never do that to you, my love is more pure, I have my priorities right"!
Thankfully there are the likes of Gendermutt and others here trying hard to understand and I'm grateful for that even if it does sometimes look like we are at loggerheads.

On the same token though, not ALL of us who are not TS are simply dudes in a dress, getting our jollies from wearing panties to bed, or prancing around in 5 inch heels or whatever. We too have our own gender issues, and it is powerful enough that we buck society and have most of the world against us.

First off GM reread what you wrote, your attitude to CDers that aren't suffering identity issues is derogatory. You probably didn't mean it like that? But you will have offended someone and right there your attitude is arrogant and above those people (which are the vast majority).
'Prancing around and whatever' shows a dismissive attitude.
You want to be taken seriously but in so doing have distanced yourself from another subsect of the community as if they are beneath you. I just wanted to highlight how easily it's done.

It's certainly powerful enough which is why I'm here chatting away and mulling over concepts with you lot. If I didn't think we had connections I wouldn't bother. You don't see me in Panty threads because I don't understand or relate to that way of life.
All I ask is to stop trying to bundle us all together as the same, I'm not adverse to being called Transgender but medically I'm TS and the difference is profound if at times subtle. Perhaps you too are TS but unless you transition you won't quite get that last piece of the puzzle.
That last piece of the puzzle doesn't necessarily make a good picture at the end though.

My one hope here is for those of you struggling with identity or dysphoria not to feel somehow lesser because transition isn't part of your path.
Going back to the tower analogy.
Perhaps it is you in the penthouse and me on the roof, yes I can now see the Sky but it's cold up here and wet. I maybe one step higher but where you are might be the best place to be. Equally two levels below is someone that hates heights they're also happy with where they are as they feel safer with far more manageable costs than you penthouse lot!
There is no better or worse than, there is only difference :)
At least to me.

Dee-Anne
Unfortunately you're a bit of a minority in what you do, the vast majority of the Trans community are not visible. You are like the tip of the iceberg with the masses in the closet and while they remain hidden your idea doesn't really work...yet.
I totally get what you are saying about rights etc and I'm guilty of that. But I'm just not that person I don't want to be dual anything or trans at all, I now live my life as a very plain nothing special woman and that feels natural to me and it's what I have fought hard to be.
I am turning my back and selling out on the Trans community I know that, but doing what you and PaulaQ do, I can't do that it's just not in me and I certainly haven't got the confidence to stand up and talk on anyone's behalf.
Sometimes you make false assumptions that rub me up the wrong way, but I do respect your experience and admire what you are trying to achieve.

Georgette_USA

05-18-2016, 02:41 AM

WOW I don't keep up with all the threads for a few days and it all explodes.

Tolerance

I am pretty new to this forum. Joined for a few reasons. My # 1 has always been to find any TS that fully transitioned and SRS in the 1970s. My experiences are almost all different from most of the newer people. I don't ask many questions in the TS area, as I am in the "Been There Done That" category. I can't answer many questions as it has been 40 years, and can't remember or even care anymore. I have put a lot of info in my profile, as I want people to know me.

I work with 4 different TG/CD groups, and bring some of what I hear here to them. "All names have been changed to protect the innocent."

I have been accused of being some kind of imposter or whatever. Keep getting questioned about details of my life compared to the present. Does anyone know someone that did this in the 1970s to compare with. Asked to joined the Safe Haven MtF thread, told I might not be a "REAL" TS. I guess I need to put a copy of my surgeons letter here. I don't hide who I am, not hard to find me if one cares to.

I tell my REAL world friends about this and they get a good laugh about it.
Why would I make a profile being a fat 65 year old Post-Op TS in 1977. Wouldn't I want to be, I don't know somehow better. Not even sure why I would even be here if that weren't true.

Yes I do frequent the CDs sections a lot also. As I have NO fashion sense, am terrible with makeup. I actually do "Male Stuff/Pursuits", still have not found out what that is, as a woman. Plus I actually do admire the CDs as they put more time and effort into all this dressing stuff then I ever did or do now. I am Pan-Sexual and truly like all CD TG TS Men Women. I do know personally some of the people here. I am not some sex crazed idiot. I love the responses from Reine as I value a woman's opinion, and am always chatting with them in the REAL world.

So has anyone heard an intolerant word from me. I try to support whomever I can here, moral or real. If I have please tell me off, so I can learn to be better. And I will apologize in public.

I will hang in here as I do hope to learn more, and I don't scare away easy. Hell if I could transition/SRS in the 70s and survive, this place is nothing.

Georgette

flatlander_48

05-18-2016, 04:44 AM

Dee-Anne
Unfortunately you're a bit of a minority in what you do, the vast majority of the Trans community are not visible. You are like the tip of the iceberg with the masses in the closet and while they remain hidden your idea doesn't really work...yet.

A couple of points here:

Younger ones (teens and 20-somethings) do seem to be more open about about being active. Perhaps less to lose, less entrenched, etc. But, this may not necessarily be a good thing. It is always true that the externally visible people in any movement need to be put together, pulled together, not easily baited, able to speak reasonably coherently and be "substantial". All this moves the needle away from the younger and towards the older. In other words, you want that external face to be grounded and have presence. That can be hit and miss with younger folks. This is not a criticism. It just recognizes that people grow into themselves at different rates.

PQ created a thread a while back about how things went leading up to, and during, public discussions about some transgender-related rulings (drawing a blank on the name of the town at the moment). The thing that struck me was that they were able to work on so many different tactics at once. Great strategy is one thing, but you have to have sufficient legions of people to carry out that strategy. As always, it is a game of sheer numbers to be able to do these things. There's no way around it. How people absorb information is highly variable, so you have to cover as many methods as you can. Some ways are writing a piece for print, being interviewed on radio or TV, assembling allies of different backgrounds to deliver the same message but each will come out differently, researching what's happened in similar situations in other places, etc. Sufficient numbers of people are needed to do this. Sufficient numbers also help to prevent burning out your allies. Allies are very important because their perspective is from the outside looking in, just like the people you need to try to convince. Folks at large sometimes find it easier to connect with the allies because they are more like the allies than the LGBT constituency. So, very important to keep from overloading the allies. Again, sheer numbers help this situation.

I totally get what you are saying about rights etc and I'm guilty of that. But I'm just not that person I don't want to be dual anything or trans at all, I now live my life as a very plain nothing special woman and that feels natural to me and it's what I have fought hard to be.
I am turning my back and selling out on the Trans community I know that, but doing what you and PaulaQ do, I can't do that it's just not in me and I certainly haven't got the confidence to stand up and talk on anyone's behalf.
Sometimes you make false assumptions that rub me up the wrong way, but I do respect your experience and admire what you are trying to achieve.

Just remember that everything doesn't happen in public, or is even actually intended to. Back around the turn of the century, I was president of a support and advocacy group for Black engineers and technicians, in our corporate engineering organization, for 3 years. In comparing the time I spent talking to various department managers, directors and the VP of Engineering with the time I spent thinking and strategizing with my officers, it was at least 5 (and maybe more like 10) hours with the officers to every hour spent with the leadership. In short, we always knew what the story was, but the larger question was how to say it such that it can be heard.

One thing to note: I post on the other side of the forum because often the topics are more interesting. While I thoroughly enjoy dressing and how it satisfies that part of my psyche, panty threads et al are not my thing. On the other side of the forum, folks are dealing with some nasty issues, bumping up against uncooperative government agencies or healthcare organizations, wading through major family issues, employment issues, and many other things. I read a fair amount of external stuff, but hearing about events in the words of someone who experienced it carries a particular significance. I often find those exchanges stimulating and I try to respect that by saying what I believe.

DeeAnn

Megan G

05-18-2016, 07:15 AM

t is understandable why folks choose to try to fit within the confines of a regular life in the aftermath. But, what I can't understand is how they expect things to get better and who they think will pick up the banner.

DA,

I get what your saying but a couple of things to keep in mind. Like Becky said not all of us are the type to be advocates. While I admire the PaulaQ's and Sue's that are out there pushing for change I am not the type of person that can do that, it's just not in me..

With that said that does not mean I or others like me are not helping. We have no closets and do not hide, we are out living our lives in full view of the mass's and we are helping in our own ways. There had never been a trans person in the community I live in (rural Ontario- farm belt) and for most I am the first trans person they have met and seen transition. My whole life is under scrutiny from the public as I have 4 generations of family here and am well known.

So while I may not be seen in any pride parades and I am not part of any LGBT groups I am making change in my own way, in the method I am most comfortable with.

And BTW, I have a lot of respect for you and what you do, your side of the spectrum needs more people like you. They can't just sit back and expect rights to be won on the back of TS's who are out doing the majority of the work..

Ashley in Virginia

05-18-2016, 07:17 AM

Zooey,
You make your point, I could have also had a list like yours , how much damage might have been done or who knows could still be done if I took that option.

The only option I had was hormones and starting transition or suicide. I was in such a dark place last year that I was OK with leaving my kids parentless and just ending it. The only reason I'm alive today is because with the help of some people here, I pushed myself to get help and start trying to be real with myself.

You keep using the word "option" like people are willingly choosing to go thru this. This sucks ass. The end will hopefully justify the means, but damn... Right now I'm eat up with shame and self doubt. I am still freaked out about what the future holds, but at least I know I have a future now.

Teresa

05-18-2016, 08:29 AM

Becky,
You are putting words in my reply that aren't there, I have never called anyone arrogant or elitist , and I do not dismiss her pain, but we all have a close group we could list that would suffer, through the TS route, they suffer enough just dealing with CDing issues.
Yes I admit I contemplated suicide some years ago that was just through difficulties with acceptance over my CDing issues, that feeling never fully leaves you and whatever my inner feelings at my age I can't see me risking that road again and believe me that's not something you make light of.

Tracii,
We have had cross words before, and last I pointed out that we are in different situations, I have a son and daughter older than Zooey, and they have children, I'm not angry with Zooey but she doesn't appear to understand how different it is to make decisions over TS issues when I have my next generations to consider. Again of course we have different priorities , but I'm not saying Zooey's are any less important just different.

Ashley,
Call it what you like, responsibilities if you like , sometimes they do suck but I'm trying to live with mine, hoping it will make me happier at the end of the day rather than taking the gamble and losing my life's work. I have to accept I'm too old to go down that road if I truly wanted to or not. I'm not bitter about that my heart would break not to have the contact with my children and grandchildren .

flatlander_48

05-18-2016, 02:11 PM

And BTW, I have a lot of respect for you and what you do, your side of the spectrum needs more people like you. They can't just sit back and expect rights to be won on the back of TS's who are out doing the majority of the work..

Well, the really curious thing about being in the middle is often the lack of recognition from both ends of the spectrum. Laughable at times and hurtful at others, but it is what it is.

One of the things that people miss sometimes is that there are a lot of parallels between the transgender community and the gay community. One is that a lot of the Coming Out thought process and methodology that we use (or should) comes from the gay community. There's a wealth of experience, not only numerically, but also philosophically. Not saying that it is exactly the same process, but there is a lot to be learned that we can use. Many of my comments here about Coming Out are from that perspective.

Another might be how we function in the world at large. I think the notion of activism can play out very similarly. We (speaking as a bisexual and part of the gay community and also as a transgender person from the middle of the spectrum) have all likely gone through periods of abject denial of our own truths or, if we actually thought about them, been really confused about what it all meant and how things sat for us. I think the tendency is for us to shy away from any sort of activism because it might put us into a position of heightened scrutiny. Therefore, I suspect that many of us have little or no contact with the concept and it holds no fascination for us. We're just used to living within ourselves as that seems to present a less threatening path.

How many of us have thought, for years even, that we were the ONLY person who felt as we felt or did what we did. Eventually, and hopefully, we find out that that wasn't the case. The thing that struck me is that while your situation is one of the less common ones, I'm sure that there are others attempting to deal with the same things in similar settings. You said that you aren't a part of any groups, but I would encourage that connection. You never know when someone might find your story pivotal to the path that their lives will take.

DeeAnn

Lorileah

05-18-2016, 03:02 PM

Geeze I take a couple weeks off and I come back to an intolerant thread about tolerance. This whole thing, like many before, has become a "My ox has it worse than your ox".

Did I miss the idea? wasn't this a we should get along thread? Let's call this a yellow card

I don't want to be be in one camp where we throw snowballs at the other. Let's try and get this back to civility...OK? (Dammit Zooey, we shoulda talked while I was there)

Tina_gm

05-18-2016, 03:52 PM

I am personally trying real hard here on this thread. A few things I would like to address though-
Teresa, Your comments about priorities are way off the mark. Even if it has been told to you from Zooey, I feel a need to get my say in here. Anyone on the TG spectrum, to the point where they alter their life in anyway is doing what they need to do, at this time of their life. For many of us, we push our partners toward the cliff with it all. Some can handle this for whatever reason, but many just cannot. It is not their fault, not our fault. Not our fault for where ever we are on the spectrum, or even being on it in the 1st place.

But when it comes to prioritizing our lives, you, like me and many others take our wives to the cliff. You dangle your wife at the edge and you even thought of letting go. It is not your priorities that kept you from doing so, it is where you are at that did. NO ONE is going to give up someone they truly love with all their heart unless they have to. It is one of the reasons many who are TS initially resist going through what they do. The cost is huge, beyond any comparison to anything. What they end up realizing is that no matter how much they may love someone, they cannot be there for them living the wrong gender. So the choice is really non existent. If anything, it is as much an act of selflessness to let those which you love so dearly go so they can go on and live their life as they need to as well.

Becky, in your response to my post, why did you only take out one tiny thing? You wanted to show an example of intolerance on my part, yet if you had read all of what I said, you would clearly see that I was in fact trying very hard to show how we all need to not marginalize one another. I certainly gave credit to those who are TS and showed how marginalizing it is for those who go into the forum or speak of TS as not making hard choices, or being selfish, or whatever else. I gave the example of the CDer, the "dude in a dress" and I think how I explained the dude in the dress was for simply an example of a statement. For those who identify as male only. I know I have made it abundantly clear in my many posts on this site that I do in fact give anyone anywhere in the spectrum their own unique experience. I myself still am within the ranks of CDers. I am gender fluid, but it is CDing which is a part of what I do to have my own gender expression. Perhaps being a little less pedantic with each others exact wording, and using the entire post might go a long way toward the tolerance we as TG seek, for ourselves and each other within the community.

AmberCDinNC

05-18-2016, 05:05 PM

I first would like to say that I haven't read all of the posts in this thread... it seems to have gone on a few tangents here and there.

I have been CDing since I was a child, so roughly 40 years. When I was in college I met a gay man online a bit circuitously. Long story short, he stated that he was female, and when we finally decided to meet he made the confession that he was actually male. We became pretty good friends, and through him I made several other friends that were also gay, and even got to know a few drag queens. Prior to this, I had no idea that many (most?) drag queens are gay men who enjoy performing, but didn't necessarily was to be female. I visited gay bars several times, but I never did go en femme (what a missed opportunity!). In any case, it was a wonderful experience. Everyone there... gay men, gay women, drag queens... acted like we were all on the same team. At that time, we kind-of were.

Fast-forward 10 years, and I was living in Asheville. Once again I thought I'd put out a few "feelers" to try to discover myself. As many of you may know, Asheville is a very diverse place and is known for having a disproportionately large lesbian population. I went to one of the primary lesbian sites online and sent a very kind e-mail telling them who I was, a little bit about my history and so-on, and wondered if there would be a chance to attend any events and perhaps make some friends. I never received a reply, so I tried once more. Nothing. I finally called one day, and the lady I spoke with was aware of my emails. She was very terse and told me in not-so-uncertain terms that they don't like associating with my kind, and in fact, like to keep their distance. I. WAS. FLOORED.

Fast-forward another 15 years and something similar happened, but this time with someone that attended high school with me. This was my "go out en femme or bust" time, when I was finally getting serious about my look. This person wasn't a close friend, but I was always kind to him in high school. He had come out to our class at our last reunion (not really a surprise), and he was a prominent figure in the gay scene where he lived. I reached out to him and told him what I was trying to do, and although he was a bit more kind, he still closed the door firmly with, "That's not my scene... I have no idea."

Of course, I could be completely wrong, but I feel that gays have finally gained their rights, and I think it makes them hesitate to be once again associated with a group that is still out waiting on the jury. I have *always* believed that crossdressers have one of the most dire reputations. For those of us who are straight males, we are expected to live *by that code*. It would be a travesty if word got out that "Bob", husband to "Betty" and father to "Jimmy" and "Sally" liked dressing as a woman. What kind of husband and father is he?! How terrible for his family... especially his kids! You get the idea. On the same token, if Bob had a gay couple as next door neighbors, say "Ken" and "Sam", no one would bat an eyelash if one of them walked out in drag. Right or wrong, I could hear the neighbors say, "Well, they're gay! Of course they're going to be flamboyant."

I realize many of these are stereotypes, so please don't flame me if I offend anyone. That is not--and never would be--my intent. I just wanted to express my experiences with GLBT population through the years, as limited as it was. And the above paragraph, I've heard similar stories more times than I can stand. In any case, I know that we're all different, but we, the GLBT world, used to be an overlooked minority due to sexual preference and/or sexual identity. I would hope that many who have gained their rights in the GLBT world would look back and remember when basic homosexuality was an unnatural, perverse distortion of human genetics. I remember, because growing up as a boy who liked dressing as a girl made me think that I *had* to be gay. I sat on the edge of my seat with every article, argument and TV special dealing with the subject. And as much as I would love to have their support, we also need support from the general public. I am an *awesome* dad, a wonderful, faithful husband and provider, and I'm very well thought of in my community. Sometimes I want to say, "HEY!!!!!! Don't be too quick to judge... that is ME!!!" Boy...

So--I just resolve to be the best person I can be. I try to befriend everyone and earn their respect. Although I'll never come out to most people, earning their respect and being placed in close proximity to them may give me an opportunity to share my opinion with them if the topic arises.

I tend to prattle... going to be quiet now!

Teresa

05-18-2016, 06:26 PM

Gendermutt,
I fully understand what Zooey says about the turmoil she's in and the way it's affected her close friends and family, My age is double edged I feel I'm too old to go through what she describes, if I'd been younger and fully understood what was going on in my mind I may have realised what I needed to consider doing to take away the feelings I had .
I may have gone down that road if I had separated from my wife, as it was I began to plan how I would make a life around dressing full time, as I said at the time I accepted a difficult compromise to keep a large part of my life intact. Maybe that comes down to different personalities , forty years is a big chunk of my life, would it have been a selfless act or a selfish one ? It's quite a gamble to discover that one out !

Zooey

05-18-2016, 10:12 PM

Against my better judgement, I'm responding to this.

I fully understand what Zooey says about the turmoil she's in and the way it's affected her close friends and family!

You need a lesson in reading comprehension. Let me make this very clear - I'm not in turmoil. I've been through a lot and i'm sure there's more to come, but I'm very happy with my life. Much happier than I ever was before. From what I can see, that makes one of us.

I've met a number of people who've transitioned at or near your age, just FYI. If it's who you are, you can and most likely will do it. Age is just another excuse.

I brought up the collateral damage of my transition because of your assertion that I (and others like me) "just don't know what you'd be giving up", which is why "you just couldn't possibly" and "have to get your priorities right". I know a lot about loss, and I know a lot about hurting (both myself and others). Don't lecture me on the difficulty of loss, and don't even get me started on dealing with the guilt of hurting others. I lied to people I loved for decades. I feel terribly guilty about that. What hurt them was me telling the truth. It was not malicious, and even though it hurt me to do, I feel zero guilt for finally being honest.

The reason you're not transitioning has nothing to do with your martyr-complex about saving everybody else in your life the pain. You don't transition because you're either not transexual (highly likely) or you haven't figured it out yet. If it helps, i don't think you're TS - I think you're a man with an obsession.

Teresa

05-19-2016, 12:47 AM

Zooey,
I'm not going to go into a tit-for-tat thing over comprehension, your comment goes both ways, and I'll treat that one as said ! We beg to differ , end of story !

I will say it's genuinely good to hear that you happy and with your situation and I am pleased for you , I sincerely hope it continues and you life comes together .

PaulaQ

05-19-2016, 02:34 AM

GM its the ones that shoot up to the top hardly stopping that seem to forget there are other floors or levels in the building.

Well, some of us might act that way - in fact some of us do act that way. But the reality is that being a transitioned trans woman is a race to the bottom of the social ladder. Two-three years ago we were sort of on par or a bit below IV drug users, according to surveys. Not a highly regarded class.

Now that we are equated to sexual predators and pedophiles, I can safely say that I am at very nearly the bottom of the social scale - with only trans women of color regarded worse. (And it is worse - nobody shoots a pedophile on sight...)

If you will notice they even fight among themselves in threads.

Actually, that's all for show. I'm probably not supposed to reveal this, but all the real talk goes on in the "Safe haven" TS only forum. And we're all BFF's! And super-girly. It is exactly what you'd expect! We talk about what nail color we're wearing, and boys, and pillow fights! Oh, and how super fun our new vaginas are - those of us who have them anyway, no harm, no foul if a girl doesn't. Oh, and Beyonce. It's like high-school, but with suicide watch. Scratch that - suicide watch is part of high-school now, so it's exactly the same as high school.

But yes, if you are talking about the caste system here where GG > TS > CD, then yeah, some of us buy into that, and it isn't very nice. (There are further divisions under each of the three broad categories I listed, but young, pretty, and possessing a vagina puts you at the top of two of the three classes...) The idea that some of us are better than others is, unfortunately, a bad habit we bring in with us from cis-society.

I try to not be like that. In fact, if a CD is nice to me, I invite them over to the pillow fight, as a guest... :love:

Zooey

05-19-2016, 02:39 AM

Actually, that's all for show. I'm probably not supposed to reveal this, but all the real talk goes on in the "Safe haven" TS only forum. And we're all BFF's! And super-girly. It is exactly what you'd expect! We talk about what nail color we're wearing, and boys, and pillow fights! Oh, and how super fun our new vaginas are - those of us who have them anyway, no harm, no foul if a girl doesn't. Oh, and Beyonce. It's like high-school, but with suicide watch. Scratch that - suicide watch is part of high-school now, so it's exactly the same as high school.

#srsly. Bey is slaying so hard in Lemonade.

...and I thought I was the troublemaker here, Paula. ;)

becky77

05-19-2016, 08:51 AM

#srsly. Bey is slaying so hard in Lemonade.

[/I]

Still haven't seen it!

At least Paula didn't give away the location of our Unicorn sanctuary.

GM
Didn't mean it as perhaps you read it.
I was highlighting how easy it is for someone to pull out a few misfortunate words and make a deal out of.
It wasn't supposed to be a dig at you rather an effort to show everyone "Look people say stuff, we're not all wordsmiths try not be so sensitive".

I would imagine most everyone on this thread is tolerant, people that aren't tolerant wouldn't engage or if they did it's something short and sharp with no intent to join in to the greater discussion. Eg If a thread was discussing a definition and someone only posts: "Labels are for cans" which if you break down that sentence means "I'm intolerant of this discussion and have no time or care to learn why this is important to you, therefore I dismiss you all with this perfunctory put down".

Most of what we debate/argue is about context rather than personal I think. Most of our most inquisitive contributors on this forum tell it how it is and are strong enough to engage in the conversation and voice their opinion.
Won't be the first or last time someone has disagreed with my point of view and I have left to mull it over and rethink my approach.

If someone is passionate in their argument I wonder why, have I missed something? am I seeing this the wrong way? It's healthy to have debate and we must be tolerant also, but you won't find the more deep and meaningful answers if you're too insecure to listen to the harsher truths.

I remember first joining the TS section I got some harsh criticism for some of my comments and even accused a few members of being bitter and above themselves.
Those discussions were sometimes hard to take but ultimately I started to understand why.
I wasn't even part-time at that point, I had a few delusions and was projecting my inexperienced ideology onto people who had been there and done it. It's not until I was far into transition that many of those discussions started to make sense, I was better prepared and now making informed decisions.
I've learned so much from that group now I understand just how important the truth is even if it hurts, if you are even dabbling with the idea of living full-time you need to have really stripped away all pretence and be prepared to look deep into your self. That won't happen if people have to tippy toe around you because you're identity is so fragile you take offense to someone questioning your motives.

No disrespect to anyone but the majority of people on this part of the forum are having fun, fantasy or fetish. It's not life changing and the risks are mostly of the possibility of getting caught.
The TS section is all about the reality of seeing it through to living it everyday, sexism, marginalisation, prejudice, family and friends turning on you, jobs and homes at risk even health.
It's serious, so while the TS section seems harsh it's not really when you think of the consequences of this being your everyday life.
If someone pops in and is scared off by a few strong replies, what does that say about them and how serious they are? If they're too delicate to stand and duke it out then they simply aren't ready.

I'm going to get told of for this but I still believe there should be another section for those who maybe fluid or somewhere in the middle. Where discussions of being fluid or struggling with balancing two different gender expressions are not hijacked by more fantasy or fetish based CDing. I believe that group of people come to the TS section because they are beyond much of the discussion here but soon find they don't fit there either and lacking any designated forum are left feeling unwanted and angry.

Thanks everyone that has contributed to this thread, some really great insight from all perspectives.

Tracii G

05-19-2016, 09:16 AM

Paula your "safe haven" comment is funny and if I were the type to get offended that paragraph would have done it. LOLOL
I know it has to be rough doing the transition thing and yes I have seriously considered it more than once.
I'm not a pie in the sky idealist and more a realist.
I have more friends locally that have transitioned completely than I do CD's and we do talk very bluntly about things so I do understand what you all have to go thru.
I am an ally not an enemy so keep that in mind I just see things on the TS section and think wow that person is angry and seems unhappy thats all.

flatlander_48

05-19-2016, 09:24 AM

The TS section is all about the reality of seeing it through to living it everyday, sexism, marginalisation, prejudice, family and friends turning on you, jobs and homes at risk even health.

Let's temper that thought a bit by remembering that what you describe is also often how it is for religious minorities, ethnic minorities, the differently abled, etc. Difficulty in living day to day coupled with a significant degree of uncertainty is not limited to the trans community. b7, I can tell you some true horror stories related to the experiences that the differently abled have with the government health and assistive services in your home country. And unfortunately this isn't something that happens in just a few countries around the world. Sadly, it happens just about everywhere.

As Dr. Martin Luther King said:

"None of us is free until all of us are free."

DeeAnn

Zooey

05-19-2016, 10:31 AM

becky77

05-19-2016, 10:50 AM

Let's temper that thought a bit by remembering that what you describe is also often how it is for religious minorities, ethnic minorities, the differently abled, etc. Difficulty in living day to day coupled with a significant degree of uncertainty is not limited to the trans community.

Totally agree with you.
Although there is a bit of a difference eg you have always been black and you can't be black in the closet, it's not something you could keep secret! Also your family won't turn against you because they share your experience. There are pros and cons that differ from the pros and cons of being trans.
Unlike you the average white CD has little experience with being marginalised or extreme prejudice, some will be blissfully unaware just how much privilege they take for granted and losing it, especially if they have really benefited could really break them.

Trying to relate your example as best I can to this forum:
Imagine someone becoming black midway through life after enjoying the privilege of being white, would you tell them it's all going to be rosey or would you want to prepare them for the harsh reality in the hope they can appreciate the benefits rather than dwell on the negatives?
What if then some white guy has the cheek to tell you what it's like being an ethnic minority?

I will never get involved in a discussion of living as an ethnic minority because I simply have so limited experience, I could liken it to how I'm treated in some parts of Europe just because I'm English but as you know that's just not even close to comparable.

We can sympathise but unless you live it day in day out and there is no escape, how can you truly get it?

Despite my struggles my transition has been pretty easy that's because I'm fortunate to live where I live, I'm pretty privileged and I also have passing privilege I'm well aware of that. But it would be wrong of me to pretend that's the norm because some other poor sod might go through hell.
When I say struggles the majority has been internal rather than external, you can never be 100% sure you made the right decision until you live it, I now know it was right but there was always doubt.

flatlander_48

05-19-2016, 12:15 PM

I understand what you're saying, but it's important not to assume that one group's suffering is equivalent to another's just because it exists and looks similar to an outside observer. Shout out to intersectionality here.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

No, it isn't a question of equivalency and should never be. It is a question of existence.

Unlike you the average white CD has little experience with being marginalised or extreme prejudice, some will be blissfully unaware just how much privilege they take for granted and losing it, especially if they have really benefited could really break them.

I would even take the "CD" part out and state that as a much more generalized experience.

Trying to relate your example as best I can to this forum:
Imagine someone becoming black midway through life after enjoying the privilege of being white, would you tell them it's all going to be rosey or would you want to prepare them for the harsh reality in the hope they can appreciate the benefits rather than dwell on the negatives?

That is precisely it. In general, perhaps folks are unprepared for the existence that will surround them. There's the internal part of transition (the mental and physical aspects), but there is this external part as well. I suspect that the external part really comes as a surprise and can be really unsettling because many things that you believed are no longer true. You can find doctors and therapists to deal with the internal issues, but it would also seem that serious therapy is needed to come to grips with how the world seemingly changed. My guess is that the difficulties with the external part starts as soon as one begins to present as their target gender a significant amount of the time.

I watched the 2nd season of I AM CAIT and I think this scenario applied to her. I think she was genuinely surprised by how different the social and political environment was for Cait, compared to Bruce. Anyway, it would seem that being able to cope with this hurdle is a very important part of the process.

Actually, a much closer analogy would be for what people experience who have become differently abled at some mid-life point. The difference in reality is like a step change.

DeeAnn

jenni_xx

05-19-2016, 04:13 PM

Against my better judgement, I'm responding to this.

You need a lesson in reading comprehension. Let me make this very clear - I'm not in turmoil. I've been through a lot and i'm sure there's more to come, but I'm very happy with my life. Much happier than I ever was before. From what I can see, that makes one of us.

I've met a number of people who've transitioned at or near your age, just FYI. If it's who you are, you can and most likely will do it. Age is just another excuse.

I brought up the collateral damage of my transition because of your assertion that I (and others like me) "just don't know what you'd be giving up", which is why "you just couldn't possibly" and "have to get your priorities right". I know a lot about loss, and I know a lot about hurting (both myself and others). Don't lecture me on the difficulty of loss, and don't even get me started on dealing with the guilt of hurting others. I lied to people I loved for decades. I feel terribly guilty about that. What hurt them was me telling the truth. It was not malicious, and even though it hurt me to do, I feel zero guilt for finally being honest.

The reason you're not transitioning has nothing to do with your martyr-complex about saving everybody else in your life the pain. You don't transition because you're either not transexual (highly likely) or you haven't figured it out yet. If it helps, i don't think you're TS - I think you're a man with an obsession.

Just reading this thread and your replies (and moreover how people have responded to you), after reading your last message, and in particular your comment about reading comprehension, I couldn't help but think one thing.

Sometimes the words we use (the words anyone uses) are used in order to try and communicate what it is we are actually trying to say, but those words, when read by another person, lose the context in which the person who originally wrote them intended them to be read. I do think that too many people on the internet scan-read - that is, not really read or try to understand what is being said, but rather read a certain sentence, form an opinion in regards to that sentence, and then run with it. I think, on line, that the actual intent/meaning of the poster is lost all too quickly. I also think that our own mindset can manipulate how we interpret what we read. It's all too easy online to see the negative in what others say. It's actually incredibly tempting to see the negative in what others say.

I genuinely do not feel that there is a single person who is a member of this forum that would wish any negativity on another member of this forum. I genuinely do not think that any member here thinks badly about another member here. But we all have our issues. We all have our questions and insecurities. We all have our issues. And instead of trying to usurp others in regards to such issues, the best thing to do would be to acknowledge that their issues are important to them, regardless of how trivial such issues may seem to ourselves.

There does seem to be a disconnect within this community. A hierarchy of how serious the problems that any member may face based upon how they regard themselves to be. A cross-dresser ranking lower on the scale of significance, if not importance, in regards to the issues that are at hand.

I personally can not abide that. My problems are mine, and even if they do pale into insignificance to yours, that doesn't make my problems any easier to deal with. There is nothing worse than listening to a person get something of their chest, even explain something using words that may not be entirely appropriate, or even using words that may be misleading, only to have others focus on those words and meanings while at the same time losing sight of what it is that is actually trying to be said.

Zooey

05-19-2016, 04:26 PM

I watched the 2nd season of I AM CAIT and I think this scenario applied to her. I think she was genuinely surprised by how different the social and political environment was for Cait, compared to Bruce. Anyway, it would seem that being able to cope with this hurdle is a very important part of the process.

Yes, totally. There was a definite period in time where I'm pretty certain she honestly believed that Ted Cruz was going to welcome her with open arms and see the light.

- - - Updated - - -

There does seem to be a disconnect within this community. A hierarchy of how serious the problems that any member may face based upon how they regard themselves to be. A cross-dresser ranking lower on the scale of significance, if not importance, in regards to the issues that are at hand.

I personally can not abide that. My problems are mine, and even if they do pale into insignificance to yours, that doesn't make my problems any easier to deal with. There is nothing worse than listening to a person get something of their chest, even explain something using words that may not be entirely appropriate, or even using words that may be misleading, only to have others focus on those words and meanings while at the same time losing sight of what it is that is actually trying to be said.

Thank you for your response; I think it's thoughtful. The reason I brought up reading comprehension in my response to Teresa was very particular to her, but let's talk about this more generally, because I think this is a big sticking point, and I've tried to be as clear about it as I can.

For anybody who thinks that I'm trying to diminish you, or claim superiority over you, please re-read what I wrote throughout this thread.

At no point in this thread have I tried to say that CDs' problems are less significant than my own. They're certainly not less significant to the person having them. Any time I've brought up my problems, it's been because somebody else (like Teresa) tried to say that I (or we) just don't know how hard it is for them. I don't, and can't, understand your exact feelings - we're different, and it doesn't work that way. But I do understand guilt, loss, and pain. I sympathize.

The CDs are the main ones, at least as far as I can tell, who are projecting this idea of hierarchy. I spent an entire post talking about how we are, at least, on the same level. In many ways, one could argue that you are better off, but we are not comparable like that. We are apples and oranges. We are simply different. Be the best CDs you can be, and love what you love. Be 100% of that, rather than trying to prove that you're 85% of me, and that I'm just too superior to understand. I'll be 100% of me over here.

The only thing I came in here to discuss was what I see as an issue with CDs projecting their brand of femininity onto actual women, and saying some pretty misogynistic stuff as a result. That's not a critique on the value of you or your feelings. It's a critique of a particular action that's taken, that can be changed if people are conscious of it, and which has a direct impact on tolerance of, and within, this so called "trans community".

jenni_xx

05-19-2016, 04:51 PM

Zooey, thanks for your reply.

Firstly, and it is important that I say this - I no longer regard myself as cd. I just want to be clear about that.

One thing I could never wrap my own head around was the constant referral to myself (by others) using a female pronoun. (Yet here I am with a female name, so I'm guilty of being hypocritical in that respect, and I'm also guilty of referring to other cd's here using female pronouns, which again could be seen as being hypocritical). I acknowledge that, but it is something that I was never comfortable with - either towards other cd's, or other cd's towards myself. I explored myself, what I felt I was, who I felt I was, etc etc. And it's been a long journey for me (lasting 40 years ultimately). I'm now in a place whereby I've realised that this isn't for me at all. And that makes me so different from you. The amount of time it took me to find myself, you perhaps dedicated to finding yourself - what is right for you. I admire you, the courage you have displayed, risking and experiencing loss in order to finally feel at one with yourself. And even though we've both reached a conclusion that is completely at odds with one another, I can't help but feel that a kindred spirit can come out of that - a struggle and need to find oneself and be happy. Even if the outcome is different, maybe the experience in getting to such a point can at least be empathatic. That is, even though we are different, we can still relate.

During my time finding myself, I came out as gay. I was in a civil partnership with a man who accepted my crossdressing. I lost friends and family after I came out, not only as a gay man, but also as a crossdresser. Interestingly enough, more people did accept me as being gay than they accepted me as a crossdresser. I lost more friends because of the latter than I did the former. My relationship with my husband (he was my husband, even though it was a time when such a term wasn't legally recognised (i.e. before gay marriage was legalised) ended. I'm now single. It has been a struggle, but I'm now happy. And yet no one in my life believes me. Once out as a crossdresser, a crossdresser one will always be. I will take that to my grave.

I don't project any hierarchy. I can only say that for myself. I have strong views that are at odds with many here. I have expressed some of these views and been ridiculed for them. I have had several heated exchanges with the mods on this site. I don't like any of them to be perfectly blunt. I don't belong here. Yet I nevertheless feel a kindred spirit with everyone who I have ever communicated with here. Because I can relate to them, even if only to a certain extent. For me, I don't have to relate to someone fully. simply relating to them in regards to a snippet of their life, a snippet of their experience, is enough for me to empathise with them. To understand their own struggles. Their own issues. And I thank them for that, because reading and hearing about the issues of others has helped me find myself.

You are not on the same level. No one ever actually is. An identification doesn't work that way. For what you have had to deal with isn't the same as what someone else has had to deal with. Equally what one crossdresser has had to deal with isn't the same as another. One will find acceptance in their family, the other will not. Yet both are crossdressers. What one transgender person has lost, another transgender person will not have done. Yet both are transgender. It is simply too simplistic to label individuals in such a way. Teresa has, by all accounts, had far more harsh struggles than other crossdressers, yet you are still bracketing Teresa in with all other crossdressers. It simply doesn't work that way. We all know this. Yet we all do that very thing.

flatlander_48

05-19-2016, 07:49 PM

Yes, totally. There was a definite period in time where I'm pretty certain she honestly believed that Ted Cruz was going to welcome her with open arms and see the light.

Most of my TV watching, except for motorsports events, is done On Demand. When she said that, I had to go back and replay it. I thought I didn't hear it correctly. Once I realized I did hear it correctly, that was a LMAO moment, although it was sad in a way. My thought was "Baby, you just don't know the half of it.".

During my time finding myself, I came out as gay. I was in a civil partnership with a man who accepted my crossdressing. I lost friends and family after I came out, not only as a gay man, but also as a crossdresser. Interestingly enough, more people did accept me as being gay than they accepted me as a crossdresser. I lost more friends because of the latter than I did the former. My relationship with my husband (he was my husband, even though it was a time when such a term wasn't legally recognised (i.e. before gay marriage was legalised) ended. I'm now single. It has been a struggle, but I'm now happy. And yet no one in my life believes me. Once out as a crossdresser, a crossdresser one will always be. I will take that to my grave.

I think people understand same-sex relationships, to the degree that they do, because it is still a binary construct. But, what they seem to have trouble with is anything where more than one facet exists at the same time. Bisexuals, Crossdressers and Transgender people who do not need to transition fall into this category. It's like they are saying "You're THIS, but you're also THAT." or "Sometimes you're THIS, but sometimes you're THAT.". I think that is what many people struggle with; it's just confusing to them.

DeeAnn

jeanieinabottle

05-20-2016, 01:13 AM

I don’t often contribute to the discussions on this forum, probably simply because I don’t have much more to be said then has already been said. From what I do in life, I tend to be more of a listener than a preacher. But occasionally I find two cents in my pocket that I need to spend. So I hope that I won’t be taken as an interloper in this discussion. As well, my comments are not directed at anyone in particular but just my comments and nothing more. Take it as you will.

But I find that when we try to compare and quantify pain, suffering and struggles between people, nobody wins. Pain and suffering is far too individualized, far too subjective to declare winners and losers. And I find that people who tend to dwell on their pain as being greater than someone else’s pain, they have a much deeper hole to dig out of. As a doc, I will treat the patient with mild pain with no less respect or understanding or empathy to those with more severe pain. Because I have come to realize that pain is pain, suffering is suffering and it depends on so many factors that may magnify or minimize those struggles in one’s life. I may offer different modalities to manage their pain. I may not always understand everything. But in the end, they are all people with pain and they all deserve equal attention without bias. I care for them all. They are all my people.

As well, I agree that in our lives there are some things that were not our choice. We are born with certain anatomical structure, neural wiring, and yes even chromosomal pairs (which alas one cannot even surgically change). I’ve know I was different from when I was a child, as early as 3 or 4. Coming from a different time and, as such, a different mindset, it took me over 50 years to come to peace and understanding of myself, to be honest about who I am. It was when I realized that who and what I am was given to me before birth, that I finally could accept those things and the past 6 years have been a revelation. I agree, I had no choice in how I was made. That was the gift that was given to me at birth. So while we are given things of which we had no choice, what we choose to do with our lives always has choices. What I do with the life that was given me always has choices. Choices are based upon situation, options and consequences. Granted, sometimes our options are limited, the then again at other times our options are plentiful. So for one to say that they had no choice in what they chose to do is probably not really “No Choice” but their best choice based upon their situation and their options and therefore have to accept the consequences since free will does give us the choice of options. So if someone chooses to transition, more power to them. But then on the other hand if someone wishes to not transition, more power to them as well. Choices are personal. And there is always a choice. We are forced to do nothing in changing our lives.

Also since we all value things in our lives differently, it is really difficult to weigh ones losses against another’s losses. Again, this is not a game, there are no winners and no losers. We don’t get stripes based on pain, suffering, consequences and losses. Its all relative. Its all individual. No winners….no losers. Only a bunch of humans with similarities as well as differences, no better, no worse, and all deserving the same respect and understanding.

Again, these thoughts are not directed at any individual so please consider it, if you must, a bunch of geriatric ramblings from a crazy old aunt which probably won’t change the way any of you think but for me is a way I can live in peace, not just with myself and my situation but in peace with everyone else for as long as I’m allowed the privilege to remain on this earth. I have enough to both worry and be thankful for to spend any significant time thinking about what is worse or what is better. No winners, no losers….unless we chose to lose. But I chose peace, acceptance and understanding, all the same, since none of us are better than anyone else.
Peace to all
Dr. J

Zooey

05-20-2016, 02:13 AM

So while we are given things of which we had no choice, what we choose to do with our lives always has choices. What I do with the life that was given me always has choices. Choices are based upon situation, options and consequences. Granted, sometimes our options are limited, the then again at other times our options are plentiful. So for one to say that they had no choice in what they chose to do is probably not really “No Choice” but their best choice based upon their situation and their options and therefore have to accept the consequences since free will does give us the choice of options. So if someone chooses to transition, more power to them. But then on the other hand if someone wishes to not transition, more power to them as well. Choices are personal. And there is always a choice. We are forced to do nothing in changing our lives.

I know, right? You always have a choice. This applies to so many other things too!!!

Like, why do people living in poverty always complain about not being able to get good jobs that pay enough money? It's like, why don't they just choose to go to college and get a better job so they're not poor anymore? It's always bothered me that people who are "depressed" don't just choose to be happy. Seriously, it's not hard. And I mean, I know somebody who's got cancer, but why do they constantly whine about the difficulty of chemo? I mean, it was their choice to take it - they could've just died if they hate it so much. Don't even get me started on dyslexic people who complain in class. I mean, PRACTICE READING, crybaby. You have to choose to get better.

Back to reality, because not even my incredibly strong reservoir of sarcasm can keep up with how icky it made me feel to write that.

Imagine that you've got a choice to make, and your only two options are...

Death (or a lifetime of unbearable misery)
Literally anything else

I feel terribly sorry for anybody who thinks that's actually a choice.

If you need to transition, you need to. It may look like a choice to people who don't need to, but it's not. At most, it's a false choice.

PaulaQ

05-20-2016, 02:43 AM

I had more to say on this subject of tolerance, or the lack thereof.

But the horrible would you date a cd/ts thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?240032-Would-you-date-a-CD-TS&p=3944419&viewfull=1#post3944419) really shows one of the biggest problems in this place - transphobia and homophobia. Specifically, internalized versions of both.

I've tried to be patient about this for quite a long time really. A good number of members on this forum, both CDs and GGs, simply DO NOT view transgender women as being women. We are less than GGs. In fact, if you read the thread I linked, it's pretty clear that a lot of you consider us to be MEN. Furthermore, you get away with saying that.

You know what? If I want abuse like that, I can stand in a crowd of anti-trans demonstrators. This is not a safe space in any sense because of these attitudes.

I am willing to DIE fighting for my identity. In fact I risk that quite often, not just in daily life, but I go toe to toe with people who would take our rights from us. I look them straight in the eye. A lot of you show absolutely zero courage, yet you feel free to insult us in the most vile and offensive way possible.

If you want respect, you need to give it in return. More to the point, you need to behave in a way that is worthy of respect, and you need to respect yourselves. A LOT of you fall short of that. It's pretty hypocritical for the least authentic people on this forum to slander those of us who risk our lives to be authentic.

Another example:

Choices are personal. And there is always a choice. We are forced to do nothing in changing our lives.

I didn't choose to be this. I did choose to transition - but my alternative choice was suicide. No other choices were possible. Some choice, huh? You know, a while back, I'd have been patient about this. But not after today.

So let me make this crystal clear. Trans women are WOMEN.

Any declaration to the contrary is an act of violence against us. If you think we are super-powered versions of YOU, a CD with physical changes, then you are wrong. If you say that to us, it's horribly transphobic and an act of abuse.

I can tell you that I personally spend a *lot* of time in real life discussing your rights. I *do NOT* have to do this. In fact, it makes everything I do much more difficult. I have defended CDs both on this forum, and in real life, in my group. I do it because it's the right thing to do. A lot of us trans women get it and stand up for you. Basically few of you stand up for us or yourselves, and rarely do any of you call out the transphobes in threads here. And there are quite a few transphobes here who slander trans women. You have no idea how disappointed I am by this. Some of this isn't intentional - you just don't know any better. That's not an excuse anymore. Learn something. Some of you DO know better, and do it anyway.

If there wasn't an all-out war on trans people going on at the moment, I'd have more patience for this. But they are literally killing us, and some of you see fit to invalidate us, undermine us, and repeat the horrible crap the folks who'd see us all dead are dishing out in their propaganda?

I think the bottom line is that very nearly the only people on this forum who really accept trans women as women are the other trans women. To most of the rest of you, we're just not seen as being real. I wish that weren't true. But it is. I'm better accepted by random people in my daily life, even people who know my history, than I am by most of you.

For a while, being invalidated here really made me feel down. It doesn't any more, it just angers and disgusts me, and makes me realize that I'm pretty much wasting my time here.

Mykaa

05-20-2016, 06:36 AM

I agree with Paula, this thread has really bothered me with all the arguing, it just really turns me off in general, I didnt choose to be different but I am and always have been. Respect goes a long ways, another word for "tolerant" maybe its a better word. I dont get why this has been such a hotbed and no I havent read all of this and I dont want to.

jeanieinabottle

05-20-2016, 09:49 AM

First of all because I believe that we all have choices, don't feel sorry for me (I would never advocate self harm as a good option which is rediculous and possibly even reading into something that isn't there or to try to make a point). Maybe feel sorry for those 50 years ago that were deprived some of the current options or choices of being able to transition or live as they felt they should have been able. While I'm not quite sure what "literally anything else" entails (which implies it could be other things), for you your choice was to follow the path that you chose and as I said, more power to you and as someone who respects one's choices, I'm truly happy for you (and tht is not sarcastic but honest). You chose your path and others may chose something different, and that is OK. Each person owns their own life and while we all have similarities, we are all different and people choose to live their lives as they see fit. There is no right or wrong, only IS. But sarcasm or denegration doesn't serve anyone. Yes, people can move out of poverty (a fellow physician I know was homeless and lived out of a car but chose to do something about it), people can find ways to deal with their dyslexia (I am one, and yes I have to read differently), and unfortunately in medicine I have had to offer choices to cancer victims which may involve things such as comfort and dignity where death might be the visible final result and not a choice but how one chose to live the time remaining was still a choice. Talk about hard. Try that sometime. But I still feel that life is about choices, some better than others. And what we do with our lives is up to us. Take the path that makes us the happiest. And respect everyone for the choices they make, because truly they are their's and their's alone, whatever road they take.
Peace to all
Dr. J.

Alice Torn

05-20-2016, 10:59 AM

Well said Dr. J.

Tina_gm

05-20-2016, 12:47 PM

C-C-Can't we all just get along??? Why can we not seem to just accept each other? I personally cannot say nor do I think we are all in the same boat. We are only those stuck in this vast gender variant ocean, each of us with our own destination Each in our own little boat. The waters are so often choppy, and sometimes we all need some help when our boats take on water. So why not just row over and give each other a little help once in a while. Or just wave to each other as we pass and not think that your boat and your destination is any better or that you are superior to the others because of it. This goes out in general....

jeanieinabottle

05-20-2016, 01:49 PM

I totally agree Gendermutt. There is no pecking order. There is no caste system. We can't declare winners and losers. We all carry our own demons and we all try to find our own peace. And we find that peace that we all seek, so much easier in a tough world when we respect and support each other equally. We might not totally understand someone else. And we may differ in opinions. But we are all in this thing together. Life is too short and too precious to spend time bickering, dwelling on the negative and trying to find and magnify the differences rather than accentuating and appreciating the similarities.
Peace
Dr. J

Isabella Ross

05-20-2016, 01:54 PM

In a nutshell, this thread is the reason I spend so little time here anymore. The greatest benefit I received from openly accepting my transgenderism a decade ago was the incredibly liberating realization that, in accepting myself, I somehow gained a huge amount of empathy for anyone who is different -- because of gender identification, because of sexual orientation, because of culture, because of what their favourite food is...I think you get the picture. It was as if a veil was lifted and I could suddenly see that our differences transform our world from black and white into colour. Zooey, you strongly protest when someone calls you on being superior and discriminatory. Yet so many of your postings contain subtle innuendos that lead me, if not most of us, to assume that in fact you are just that.

Zooey

05-20-2016, 02:00 PM

Zooey, you strongly protest when someone calls you on being superior and discriminatory. Yet so many of your postings contain subtle innuendos that lead me, if not most of us, to assume that in fact you are just that.

Serious question - can you quote some of them directly, with explanation of what subtle innuendo you are seeing? I would like to understand what you're reacting to better, because I believe that I've been very direct and plain about the things I've brought up here.

Isabella Ross

05-20-2016, 02:05 PM

How about this: "Be the best CDs you can be, and love what you love. Be 100% of that, rather than trying to prove that you're 85% of me..."

Even if your intent was pure, can you see how this could be misconstrued for something else?

Zooey

05-20-2016, 02:11 PM

No, I can't.

As I've been trying to point out repeatedly, I'm not superior to you, and you are not inferior to me - we are on different scales. It's like asking whether 100 degrees is better than 85 miles.

In what way do you believe that would be misconstrued?

Tina_gm

05-20-2016, 02:20 PM

Direct talk is exactly that. It isn't always easy to read. It is also the best way to learn however. Are we always going to do it perfectly? hardly. written form can lead to a lot of different ideas about what someone is talking about. We can screw up some punctuation and it will sound like something other than what we may be trying to convey. So, I think it is a good idea to really try to read ALL of what someone says. We can of course ask questions about what someone says, and even disagree with that too. It can be done respectfully, and without having to not validate someones's existence or the place they are in life.

If a member was to see me in person, they may not be 100% surprised at me being TG. They might be more surprised at who I am in terms of being a member though. I come on this site for particular reasons. IRL, I come across much differently at times I have no doubt. Probably much more easy going, much less intense then many people may imagine. Even a discussion about TG related issues, IRL, it will come across much differently from me if we were actually having a physical discussion I would think. I do try hard to write in a way that allows the reader a good idea of what I am talking about, but I do screw up from time to time, not give the correct wording, it comes off sounding vague or more generalizing than I mean it too. Grammar is not always perfect, and people may read it with what they think I am saying, which is not always what I mean. IF---- we read the entire post, and think of all the other posts each other write, we can sometimes get a pretty good picture of what someone is trying to convey.

Zooey hasn't been absolutely perfect on here. (She is human.) Neither have I, neither has anyone else. But from the posts I have read, she has also not been disrespectful to others either. It is a straight up talk, and it will come out at you direct, perhaps blunt. But she is not being disrespectful to others. Not from what I have seen anyway.

Lorileah

05-20-2016, 03:05 PM

How about this? This thread has come so close and probably violated the no flaming rule so often that I think it has about run its course.

What I am seeing here now is very much "us" vs "Them" on both sides. Specifically I see that one member is catching a lot of flack ( and maybe fanning the flames themselves). As hard as this forum tries to make a sand box big enough for everyone's castle, you all seem to think kicking sand is the right course.

I said it was a yellow card 2 days ago....I am reaching for the red card now. If you all don't want to go to the showers...dial it back. Dividing ourselves into cliques is a normal response but having cat fights isn't needed. Realize that most TS's...pre and post (and even that should not be a division) have in some way trod the path of fetish, fluid and CD. Many CD have wondered about the path to TS and maybe even walked it awhile. If this was so cut and dried it would be easy...yes?

And never ever use the argument "This is Crossdressers.com so TS's should not say anything here." This forum is for all, especially the MtF section. Using Tracis' analogy, this is the lobby. Everyone goes through here. (I don't like the elevator part though as it suggests that there is a rise to get get to a pinnacle...Let's just say there are rooms that have doors to many other rooms on the same floor). Know, this is close to being sent to the ethereal mists of deetedness.