Bathroom bills and other laws , discussion thread

[Mayo]

As Zooey correctly points out, appearance ('presentation') for both cis and trans people will get you questioned if you don't match up with someone else's stereotyped view of how a particular gender is 'supposed' to look. If you want to avoid issues, you either have to go with gender-neutral facilities (no questions) or with potty police (based on ID). The latter option, of course, puts pressure on trans people who haven't or can't obtained revised ID and on gender-nonconforming people (non-binary, gender-fluid, agender, intersex, etc.). The objections to the former are 'morality' (primarily religious beliefs &/or prohibitions) and fear-mongering. Whichever you choose, somebody will be discriminated against.

[Aunt Kelly]

Incorrect. Refusing to allow sectarian views to gain the force of law is in no way discriminatory. Oh, not that a group won't play the victim card when forced to treat everyone fairly, despite their group's particular admonishments about "the other". We see it all the time, and it is depressing as it is devious.

[StephanieCLT]

Hi friends!

It's been a while! I've been dealing with all that life has to throw at me over the past year or so, which has kept me from posting, and largely from dressing, but I'm working my way back in. Very exciting.

Now for a question, I've got a trip coming up to the Dallas area, and I'm looking to make that my next outing as Stephanie. I've heard that TX is a very friendly state, but I've never been out there. Also, what are the bathroom protocols in TX? Seems like TX may be moving the way of my home state of NC in making bathroom use match gender on the birth certificate. Any info here?

Thanks for your help, and I look forward to reconnecting with you all!
Stephanie

[Micki_Finn]

The bathroom law in TX is still being debated I believe. You probably have a bit before it gets signed into law, and after that it's likely to get hung up in courts for a while. Which isn't to say the locals will be friendly about it. Not sure what the local attitudes are like.

[Lauri K]

Come on down and have fun and use the restroom you identify with like all of us girls have done for decades, and yes Texas continues show their rear and we who live here cringe at what else they can cook up to try to pass a bill against

Yesterday they (TX legislature) were trying to or did pass a bill against using an Chillean emoji that looks like the Texas flag but is actually a Chillean Flag..............lawmakers are so focused, really they are......... we just need a few more tough law's to fix the emoji problems here in the native land

For the record I am not a native, and will bolt out of here when I can retire

[Paula Siemen]

Most places are very accepting. Obviously, don't go to the cowboy or biker bars. Otherwise most places very friendly. Check out Northpark mall, the crossroads ( cedar springs and throckmorton intersection). Rarely have any issues.

[Rachael Leigh]

I go out here a lot but I'm not a night owl so my out time is to the vanilla places like malls and such and never had an issue
Many of the major cities such as Dallas have local laws that don't allow discrimination against trans folks.
So yes it's all good but as was said stay away from the redneck havens.
Yes I've used the ladies room a couple of times in some local stores

[TrishaLake]

LOl I wouldn't worry too much, places that are accepting are accepting those that aren't ...well you will know regardless of the law. Come down, and enjoy what we offer. If you are around for a GNO party coe join us, S4 the club is great and vernons on Wednesday is also fun...I transplanted from NYC and love it here

[StephanieCLT]

Thanks, all! I do look forward to getting down there and getting out. I'm not one to sit inside, and while I may not pass, my goal is simply to blend. For me, there's no better feeling that fitting in and being treated as I hope to identify. Oh, and I have a small bladder! So, I do want to be careful there, and if I do need to go and use the ladies room, I want to make sure I'm not violating any laws. I'm definitely one who does her business, cleans up, and leaves.

[StaceyJane]

I live south of Dallas but have gone to Dallas several times as Stacey. I've never had any problems and I always use the ladies room.

Stacey

[KristinaK]

Come on down! Enjoy the major cities (mainly Austin, Dallas/Ft Worth, San Antonio and Houston) but I recommend staying away from the smaller cities... people tend to be a bit backwards (I grew up in a smaller VERY conservative city)

[Pat]

I've been to Dallas several times in the past year and they're pretty much like any other place -- most of the people either don't care or are friendly. Some choose not to engage with you. I haven't had anyone be rude or abusive. And, of course coming from New England and a background of Celtic cooking, I enjoy the fact that their food has flavor. ;)

[Aunt Kelly]

And, of course coming from New England and a background of Celtic cooking, I enjoy the fact that their food has flavor. ;)
Then you definitely need to travel a little further south, Pat. In the right neighborhoods here in Houston, you will get whiffs of everything from Tex-Mex to Cajun, Indian to Korean, depending on the breeze.

[Jeri Ann]

There are more languages spoken in Houston than any other city in the U. S., 160 I believe.
I have never had an issue going anywhere in the large cities in Texas. Look nice, be friendly and go about your business.

[sometimes brooke]

All of you Texas girls! My goodness, I may have to relocate. It seems you are having all the fun! But truthfully, I'm very happy for each of you, albeit just slightly envious!

Brooke

[reinasblack]

Be careful the new USA administration rolled back a bunch of TG protections and Rights like the bathroom laws.

[Geena Gee]

I live in the mostly great state of Texas. Today I received an email from txdemocrats.org concerning SB6, the bathroom bill, with contact information to protest this bills passage. Obviously, this proposed bill bothers me for multiple reasons.
First of all, if I'm dressed like a female, I would just feel more comfortable and secure (as I'm sure many of the other patrons would be,) using the women's facilities. There's a lot of rednecks here that would just love to kick a crossdresser's ass for being in the men's facilities while wearing a dress and 4" heels. So, there's the safety factor.
Secondly, passage of this bill will cost the state losses in income and jobs. Our anal retentive state government has already dropped our economy from 3rd to 21st, since Gov. Abbott was elected in 2014. Loss of revenue from events, such as the NCAA, NFL, NBA, MLB games and tourneys, concerts, plays, and other entertainers, will surely happen here, just as in NC.
It's the irrational fear and ignorance of these legislators that will be the biggest hindrance to equality for those of us in the LGBTQ community.

Message me if you'd like the email, with links, forwarded to you.

-Geena

[Aliciacd4life]

Totally wrong that he did this as this is going 'backwards" not forward ah Mr. President its 2017 not 1917 !

[Tracii G]

How about this idea learn
1. how to apply make up so you don't look like a hooker or drag queen.
2. dress like the other women and not what you think is hot or sexy (you know what I mean).
3. act more like a female and carry yourself with some class.
Those things are all part of the attitude you need to have to blend.
THEN going in the ladies room is no big deal because people will just see a lady going in and not some guy in ladies clothes skulking around.
Use common sense is all I'm saying.
I have not had any issues since all this stuff came to light and the laws have not stopped me from using the ladies room.
Used them for many years so far and I'm not going to stop.

[Aunt Kelly]

Sorry, Tracii, but I have to disagree, not with your points, but with your conclusion. Yes, we have been using the ladies' all along, and there have exactly zero issues. However, this proposed law and the irrational fears that spawned it are part of a dark and hateful agenda. Make no mistake. Some of these people would love to see you go to jail for daring to use the restroom that you think is appropriate. It is not enough that there are already laws against the behavior that they claim to be protecting their "women and children" from. Ironically, if this madness becomes law, it will hurt more children than it protects. That much is guaranteed.

[Tracii G]

Kelly those irrational fears have been there for years and they could scream the 'women and children' thing as well but did you ever hear about it before the NC thing? No.
My key point is act like you have some sense when you are dressed and its less likely you will have problems.
Whatever so called dark hateful agenda "law" isn't going to stop me so you do what you want.

[Pat]

Worth noting: today New Hampshire is supposed to bring a transgender rights bill to the floor for a vote. The House speaker is against it, so there's some question if it will get debated or tabled. New Hampshire is the only New England state without transgender protection.

[Dana44]

I think Ive said this before. I look a bit passable.. Last time I went to a movie en femme. I had to go to the bathroom. Went into the women room thinking it would be full. But alas none in there. So I went to the stall and did my business and, washed up and left. No way would i ever go to a men bathroom and get my butt kicked by rednecks. Crazy stupid laws. If you are a girl you would look stupid in a men's bathroom.

[Trione]

I live in TX and would get my butt stomped if I went into a mens room dressed. I have never heard of a CD messing with anyone in a bathroom. These laws are senseless and a waste of time and money.

[PaulaQ]

SB6 was voted out of committee and released to the senate for a vote yesterday. After 20 hours of testimony, in which hundreds of trans people, trans youth, parents of trans kids, medical, psychological and legal professionals, allies, business groups, all spoke out against the bill, the committee passed it 7-1.

I wasn't able to be there, but I watched the livestream as lawmakers literally yawned as one of my friends told about being raped in the boys locker room in Jr high because she was trans. After hours and hours of absolutely heart rending testimony, the committee voted for the bill anyway. It will pass the senate.

SB6 is a North Carolina style bathroom bill.

[Alisonforme]

It's not about bathrooms. Just like it wasn't about water fountains. It's about hate.

[Pat]

The New Hampshire House voted today to table the transgender rights bill without debate. :( Again, the Great Bathroom Distraction was used to enable it. We need a better response to that bit of rhetoric....

[Sherry Lynn]

The problem is democracy and the concept of majority rule. If you're not in the majority, then you have to accept what they say. It's like two foxes and a chicken voting on what to have for dinner.

[Trione]

An I am the chicken
:Angry3:

[Paula2]

I am from Wisconsin which is a fairly progressive state. The technical college I attended just put in gender neutral restrooms for us. I have used the ladies room for years without a problem. If I am out with GG they have encouraged me to go with them. I think it's mostly the men who have a problem with it for some reason. IDK

[Rachael Leigh]

All the Texas girls need to be contacting their reps now as our legislators are about to be called to a special session to try and get a discriminatory bathroom bill passed in Texas.
I called today to the governors phone to leave a message not to call the special session

[Lauri K]

10-4 copy that LeighR, been donating, calling and e-mailing all week

Sad that bathroom Dan won't go away

They really do not realize what they are asking trans peeps to do, wait until some FTM scares all the little giggly girls and mom too .............but they will be abiding by Dan's law to use the restroom by birth certificate

Scary times here in TX................

[CD Tammy]

The real problem isn't the CD/TS/TG using the girl's bathrooms, changing room, or locker rooms. There have been a few cases where people who are not claim they are to go into those places. Target had a straight guy in a dress bothering a woman in a dressing room. Out in Oregon a guy went in the women's locker room/showers at a public pool when a young girl's swim team was there. These are the problems, not the CD/TS/TG.

I have never seen one case where a CD/TS/TG harmed anyone in a restroom.

[mykell]

ill take this as a win and maybe precedent....

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/transgender-teen-wins-landmark-ruling-over-right-to-use-boys-bathroom/ar-BBBHtmw?li=BBnb7Kz

[Rachael Leigh]

July 18th the Texas legislators go back to work in special session. One of 20 items they will attempt to pass is a very broad
discrimitory bill on the use of public restrooms.
The one the governor wants passed will not allow even cities to have their own ordance that allow trans folks the right to use the bathroom of their gender. This has to be defeated. They also want to discriminate against trans school kids and force schools to not allow them in the bathrooms of their gender identity. Not sure if any protest are planned so if any Texas
girls know of any pass it along
Rachael

[yuri]

I think that people should go to bathrooms in the gender they're presenting in. It's just a bathroom after all, not a shared bath. You wouldn't be able to see others in compromising positions, and going to the gender bathroom that you're not presenting in is just going to cause discomfort among everyone.

[Stephanie47]

Washington State has a very progressive law on the books for transgender rights. The forces that would undo or rollback these laws ran Initiative 1552 which dealt with usage of bathrooms and locker rooms in public places. The backers of the initiative were not able to get the required number of voters to get it on the ballot. During the campaign I heard one of the solicitors outside a Wal-Mart trying to get signatures. It was nothing more convincing people that swarms of child molesters were strutting into bathrooms. The law has been on the books for more than a decade. There has been no instances of transgender men or women accosting anyone. Of course, there has been plenty of arrests for the customary pervert who has drilled holes in locker room walls or concealed cameras in toilet and locker rooms or "up skirted" women on escalators. Heck, there have been more instances of women entering men's bathrooms at concert venues to avoid the long lines at the ladies' room.

[Suzanne1]

Kelly's Ginger nut Pub ,Cape Charles, Va.
Although a republican who staunchly believes in supporting his president no matter what. This is one Excutive Order he will not support and thus will not allow TGs, Crossdressers, etc to use the ladies room . I wonder if he would go so far as to demand you drop your draws for inspection, What a bonehead.

[dynastycarol]

Non passable TG get a hard time and are harrased while passable TG to not get bothered.

There are a few TG who dress inappropriately are that bring attention to there self like the TS that stands and does a #1 in the women's stall and got a restraining order after CisWomen complained.

[ginapoodle]

All,

Special TX legislature session begins tomorrow. Let's hope for the bathroom bill to flush down the sewer where it belongs.
Note that the July 10 and 17 New Yorker magazine has a superb article on TX politics, dysfunction with long detailed descriptions of the various power players and motivations.

Something interesting quoted on the New Yorker article, from Texas Monthly magazine: "25 % of TX T/CD people have been physically assaulted"---that is pretty chilling. The article also notes the more open intolerance of anyone different: LGBT on the radar screen of the ultra-conservatives.

[Lauri K]

This is just another horrible mess here in Texas, wasting tax payer money and causing uproar over a problem that does not even exist.

Pandering to the far right for votes is all this is at the moment (hopefully this bathroom bill fails), but really what these far right elected officials want to accomplish is to undo all LGBTQ protections or cripple them to the point that the protections are meaningless. Sick people they really are!

Everyone was warned about what could happen if federal protections failed but I wont go hunt up the numerous threads to prove it..........and here we sit facing another showdown just to pee. Today it's Texas but where will the next bathroom bill pop up tomorrow

[Ariana225]

http://m.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Greg-Abbott-trolled-with-epic-photo-by-San-11292703.php#item-39786

Perfect trolling of the governor!

"How will the Potty Police know I'm transgender if the Governor doesn't?"

[ginapoodle]

Bathroom now renamed "right to privacy"-- classic dodge tactic and relabeling.

I swear if this bill passes I am leaving Texas within a year. Done. Had enough.

[Lauri K]

Texas probably will not get any better as long as these two clowns are in office.

Hate to be a downer but telling it the way it is.

I sure miss being in SFO is all I can say tonight..............

[Suzanne1]

Potty Police,ha,ha,good one. Are there really cops paid to patrol restrooms? I'D pee my pants laughing at them. How would they know, " Excuse me MAAM, do you have credentials from your doctor that say your female? Well, one ear looks bigger then the other that's why we'Re asking".

- - - Updated - - -

So how does that read? Do you get a female pass to the little girls room that say's you are authorized ,"privacy" , like an endorsement on your drivers license encoded in the magnetic strip, along with all your NOT private Life.

- - - Updated - - -

Now you I do agree with completly.

- - - Updated - - -

Think of the cost to rebuild all the bathrooms in the country, some are a simple sign ,while others are economic stimulation for contractors. Redesigning bathrooms should be an economic incentive.

- - - Updated - - -

You pose a good question though.As a Cd I would not use a ladies community pool shower since there would most likely be children present who don't need anymore BS in their young minds. So out of respect for my fellow humans , (who don't always respect me) I try not to impose myself on anyone else's right to privacy. However, if I were a complete transexual anatomically, nobody would even care since they shouldn't be able to tell.

[Sheren Kelly]

Shout out to Forum member Ashley Smith for the perfect troll of Gov Abbott in Texas.
As she points out, if he can't tell who is trans, how will the potty police do it?

[dynastycarol]

I was just gonna post the photo that went Viral.

Here is the story. He did not know Ashley was transgender.
A photo of a transgender woman and Texas Gov. Greg Abbott has gone viral
The woman says she took photo to show "sometimes it's not really apparent who transgender people are"
(CNN)Sometimes a photo says more than you think it does.

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott, who is at the center of controversy over a bill that regulates bathroom use for transgender people, posed alongside a woman from San Antonio.
A day later, the woman, Ashley Smith, shared the photo on social media.
"How will the Potty Police know I'm transgender if the Governor doesn't," Smith captioned the photo, which has the hashtag #BATHROOMBUDDY.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/18/us/transgender-woman-viral-photo-trnd/index.html

[ginapoodle]

Special session is on...we will watch the "progress" I guess. Just had a family member (married to neice) go berserk about a New Yorker magazine article I posted on FB. Topic was TX politics, style and current state government. I still love the guy, but unfriended him on FB. I do not tolerate flaming on social media, it is a form of bullying. He told me to go back to Colorado....intolerance is a lovely thing? Fortunately I rarely see him--and I will keep it that way. Amazing how polarized much of society is these days. Mixing conservative intolerance politics and religion is a very, very bad thing in my opinion.

[steftoday]

This was so awesome. She's getting all kinds of attention with it...

[PaulaQ]

I testified during the Texas Senate Committee on State Affairs on Friday about the proposed bathroom bills. (We're up to five now, I think!) Only one member of the committee was friendly to us. The other eight actively loathed us. You could see it on their faces. It was awful. So far, they've listened to 28 hours of testimony about bathroom bills, the vast majority of it AGAINST the bills. Some of the stories trans people told both in the past session, and in this session were really heart rending, including stories from trans women who were attacked and even raped because of the situations these bill would force us into, or because of the bad publicity for us these bills generate. (Seriously, one of the women who testified before me had been attacked and robbed the day before, targeted because she was transgender.)

They voted 8-1 to pass it on to the Senate for a vote. We expect the vote tomorrow. It'll pass too. Then it goes to the house. We hope it will be stopped there.

The people who run the state of Texas right now, for the most part, do not like us. One of the Senators really feels that collegiate women's golf is MUCH more important than our ability to exist in public spaces as transgender people.

It really is pretty awful here right now in Texas.

[CD Tammy]

I think that people should feel free to use the bathroom of the sex they are portraying at the time. As I said earlier, CD/TS/TG aren’t the problem. The problem is the male degenerates like that guy who went in the girl’s swimming pool changing area in Oregon and the pervert that claimed to be TG to go into the women’s changing area at Target then took pics of the woman. How about just a law saying that people leave people alone that just want to pee.

Thanks Paula for testifying.

[Lorileah]

Two things from Texas. One good one bad.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/texas-activist-targeted-beaten-amid-bathroom-bill-debate/2017/07/24/de3f0e5a-70cf-11e7-8c17-533c52b2f014_story.html?utm_term=.615eeb6e31ca

http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/dallas-county/police-sheriffs-join-opposition-to-texas-bathroom-bill/459285937

[Lauri K]

TX (R) Senate voted 21 - 10 this evening telling transgender people they are not deserving of basic rights to use the restroom facility they identify with.

Sad times here this evening, peoples nerves are frazzled out over this. One last attempt to stop this in the house, and YES we are in for the fight of our lives.

If we lose there we will be getting in line for the supreme court is my next thoughts.

Please support this effort to defend basic human rights, especially if you live here and will be affected.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trans-boy-texas-crying_us_59775e1be4b0a8a40e829ac4

[Aunt Kelly]

We know that it's about basic human rights, Lauri, but they don't. Ignorance abounds in places like TX and NC, and there is no shortage of politicians who will cynically (not to mention, easily) pander to a crowd who actually revels in their own ignorance, who view intellect and enlightenment as something to be avoided, lest they become "like them left-coast liberal elites". I am afraid that it will take another round of having the reality of social justice and Constitutional law being shoved down their throats before little girls can go to the bathroom without fear in TX.

Wow... Where did that come from? I apologize, ladies, for my intemperate remarks. I have had quite enough of willful ignorance and false piety for a while but, alas, I see it all around me right now.

[Rachael Leigh]

I had the privilege to meet a women who's picture with her trans son crying in the Texas captiol has gone viral. She is one at the forefront of
this discrimation bill and fighting everyday for her son to not have his rights taken from him.
She is a wonderful mom who has shown such love and acceptance of her sons gender it's been great to read her stories
We have to win this fight and show everyone that even in a conservative state we won't stand for this kind of discrimination

[ginapoodle]

Houston Chronicle keeps piling on the common sense, love for all commentary. I am hopeful the TX bathroom bill will just die in the House. A long list of local CEOs also added the "bad for business" case to rejecting the bill. I wrote a letter to the business editor telling my story, but asked not for publication.

The business angle is very true: hiring and retaining millennials, and also many other workers, requires a corporation to be genuinely diverse. Faking corporate diversity does not fly, people are too aware these days.

[dan.dan]

For me, it's straight forward. If you have man parts (and I do), you go to the men's room. Otherwise, you go to the woman's room.

[Aunt Kelly]

If that is your choice, Dan, that's fine, but surely you are not suggesting that it is right to require a transgender woman to use the men's room simply because she might have "man parts". Right?

[SaraLin]

For me, it's straight forward. If you have man parts (and I do), you go to the men's room. Otherwise, you go to the woman's room.

OK Dan,
I have man parts below the waist. I have woman parts above the waist (breasts - worked hard for them). Now,if we're going strictly by body parts, where do I go? Since the breasts are more visible through clothing, shouldn't that mean that I'm supposed to use the ladies' room?:confused:

A common argument used by the anti-trans folks is "men use the men's room. Women use the women's. Period." I'd agree with this if you add this phrase at the end."
"AND IT'S NOBODY ELSE'S BUSINESS WHAT'S IN THEIR UNDIES"

Simple, huh? If you're out and about as a woman, use the ladies' room.
If you're out and about as a man, use the gentlemen's room.
Don't worry about other people's plumbing.
Why do people try to make it more complicated than that?

[Rhonda Darling]

Dan:

I can only presume that you dont go out fully presenting as a woman. Or, that you live in the safest place on the planet. Most of us that do go out presenting as other than our birth sex will go where we feel safest, as we don't have a death wish. If the reason for your statement is that you subscribe to the canard that crossdressers and trans folks are all latent rapists or child molesters who are only wearing women's clothing to gain some advantage over poor defenseless women and children, then I urge you to present to us the statistics of crossdressers or thansgender individuals who have actually attacked someone in a restroom (and don't use the few sorry examples of men who clearly only dressed to carry out a crime -- they are pathetic and are not us.

If, on the other hand, you yourself do go out dressed and presenting fully as a woman, and use the men's room with quiet abandon and devil-may-care confidence, at least sit down and point your feet the right way.

A little bit of detail in your profile might go a long way in helping us understand your position on this. (no pun intended)

[Nora TBD]

I remain conflicted about crossdressers, such as myself, using the Womens' room even while dressed. I'm fully on board with transgender people using the room that matches their identity. I don't consider myself as being someone who has earned that consideration.

Over the past 5 or 6 years I have used the Ladies room exactly twice. Both times were after I had received a professional makeover and felt like I passed fairly well. When possible, I still use the bathroom at my home while having a day out after a makeover. Which means I prefer the risk of being seen in a dress by my neighbors in broad daylight over the risk of potentially making someone else uncomfortable by sharing the bathroom with a cross dresser. Likewise, I won't go in the Mens' room either when dressed.

Please accept my statements here as my current feelings about the topic. I'm actually happy and encouraged that others don't feel the same guilt and anxiety over this issue that I do. For me, however, I'm not there yet.

Regards,
Nora

[Jeri Ann]

For me, it's straight forward. If you have man parts (and I do), you go to the men's room. Otherwise, you go to the woman's room.

OMG!!! I would rather go in my pants than in a men's restroom. Until I complete my transition, it would certainly cause a stir if I went into the men's and, in many places, it would be dangerous.

This has got to be a joke.

[Lauri K]

Wonder if Ms. Dan just likes to check out all the guys in the men's room ? Just saying why would she want to use the men's room.

Does not make any sense to present female and use the mens room, that is going to cause a stir for sure like Jeri pointed out.

Which reminds me, am I just feeding the fish here, cause I am befuddled at the "parts" determining which restroom to use

[Rachael Leigh]

Each time I've been out dressed and actually needed the bathroom without hesitation I've gone to the ladies room. Now I'm
still a bit nervous about it that some women might read me and say something especially with all this news in Texas about it
however it seems we have a lot of folks on our side and I have my doubts many businesses would make a fuss if someone
said something, at least that's my hope.
Protecting the most vulnerable is very important and that most assuredly includes trans women and men for that matter

[Shelly Preston]

Last weekend I needed to use a public toilet.

As I reached the entrance the attendant actually pointed me in the direction of the ladies.

He obviously did not want me using the male toilet. :)

I know we are a target for some groups. History says a lot about those who target minority groups.

[Trione]

Years ago the wife and I were on vacation and stopped into a very nice lesbian club There were a few other MF couples, but most of the ladies were interested in the other ladies, no big deal. We chated with some nice ladies and I had to use the men,s room to get rid of some beer. Well the men room had the tall down to the floor urinals and there was another man in there, well we are doing out business when this GG walks in unzips her jeans does a little adjustment and pees away. The other guy freaked and ask if I knew that was a woman, I said so what. If you are in club go with the flow of the club, if it's a public place go with how you are dressed. A while later this same lady was chatting up the wife while I played pool, when I walked up to them the young lady say she hope she didn't make me feel uncomfable aand I sid not at all. No private parts were showing . Texas and N.C. are making a big stink over nothing.

[Rachael Leigh]

Just wanted to post good news, the Texas house never brought the bathroom bill up for a vote in the special session.
Yea!! The governor has said for now it's dead but it may be back, let's hope not. A great win for the girls of Texas and
TG men

[Aunt Kelly]

Amen, Rachel. Thanks to everyone who called, lobbied, and testified against this ridiculous idea.

[Persephone]

Awesome! As a Texan I'm very glad it died in committee.

[GaleWarning]

I've just returned from a visit to Ireland, where, at the Cliffs of Moher, all the toilets were unisex. We got off the bus and queued together. And you know what? Everyone got the business done quickly and without mishap.

There were people of every nationality there. The only ones who wrinkled their noses were the Americans.

Unisex toilets. Way to go!!!

[Suzanne1]

In Cape Charles, Va. If anybody recognizes you as such the management will tel you to use the men's room or leave. This is in all the clubs. From a town saved by the LGBT community , the realtors have bought in new people with more conservative attitudes and they think they are above the laws.

[Dana44]

Leigh, that is great news. It has never been an issue and it was brought in by the Bigot senators. I hope it does not return.

[ginapoodle]

Jeff Sessions is up to no good....trying to overturn workplace discrimination laws for LGBT...ugh.

[Lauri K]

Jeff Sessions is up to no good....

It takes these kinds of events to wake people up, 2018 is approaching fast and this craziness helps our efforts so much more to gain back some ground in mid term elections

[Bella.CD]

Seriously, I typed a long reply on my phone and my reply did not post? Pissed on that outcome.

My reply to an essence, real common sense, will piss everyone off and that is, go where you feel safe. People's feelings cannot be legislated and that is a simple truth.

I either go at home or I seek out single occupancy, single use restrooms. No legislation needed.

Kisses,
Bella

- - - Updated - - -

Pic attached. Comments welcomed. Fire away!

[Alice_2014_B]

I've only used a public restroom/bathroom once whilst out en femme, it was at the comedy club the second time I did stand-up.
I simply used the men's room.
:)

[Rhonda Darling]

You did stand up?? Dressed like that, you should sit. Ba Dum, Dum! (top hat rim shot.)

[joanna4]

I've been using the women's restroom well before I transitioned.

[sissythings]

I've used the women's RR when dressed out in public before; it just feels safer to me. It's certainly a dicey situation though... use the men's and risk getting beat up, use the women's and risk getting kicked out/arrested.

I recently re-watched an excellent foreign film (French), 'He Loves Me, He Loves Me Not'. In it, a male and female were both comfortably sharing the same public restroom. Is that the way it's done in France? If so, why not simply make that the practice everywhere? Too many rules often times causes too many problems.

[Eva Bella]

I've used the women's room in at least six different states.. every time without incident.

These "Bathroom Bills" are absolutely despicable. They're a form of irrational bigotry that's excused as "concern for women." If any of these legislators actually cared for women they'd (1) work harder to protect them from everyday, garden-variety harassment and violence and (2) work to get them equal pay and equal representation in government. They're all full of it.

[ginapoodle]

I will throw this datapoint onto the grid. My church, here in Houston, TX will not add a gender neutral bathroom. I talked to the Senior Pastor about it: he gave me the non-reaction, ignore the direct question response. Been bothering me as the church basis is Oneness, unity and diversity, all welcome. Seems when the rubber meets the road: nope. But I carry on, and no I do not go to church dressed, and have never seen a M to F person there (that I recognized). Given that, if I did want to attend as Gina, or another person was in a similar motivation: no real bathroom option.

2018 should bring Texas passing the dreaded "bathroom bill", and a likely court consideration and response.

[Aunt Kelly]

I've used the women's room in at least six different states.. every time without incident.
Only four states, but one of those is Texas so I should get extra points. LOL.
You're right, of course. It's not an issue. Never has been. As Judge Frye (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Frye) frequently points out, all the things the haters claim to be protecting women from with these bills ...are already illegal.

[Jaylyn]

Just early voted yesterday on the Texas Restroom issue on the ballot it says do you want the women and children to be safe while using the restroom,. ( those are not the words but the gist of it is there). Of course I want my wife and all my granddaughters safe who in their right mind wouldn't? I also want my grandsons safe but I didn't read anything about them being safe from predators in a restroom. It's really worded funny. Me being unprepared I had not read the whole bill but what's on the ballot made sense to me about women being safe. The word "safe " has many meanings to me. I mean I don't want my grands to get bit by a rattler when they are helping me at the farm? ( thus I usually pick up the bale of hay first then let them distribute it) this whole dad gum thing is absolutely ridiculous. I have n problems with unisex bathrooms as long a the stalls are made to where one can't see into the next one. I have several grand daughters and if I take them to the movies I always send an older one in with them there. This is crazy just arrest the pervs that prey on little girls, CD, and young boys. It already a law that a crime is against the law. Sorry but I get wound up on these stupid bills our politicians come up with.

[ginapoodle]

Watching Anchorage, Alaska Proposition One vote, now in progress. Another bathroom bill brought to you by extreme far right.

Also note excellent article in today's Houston Chronicle about Pearland, TX family concluding it is best to move to Austin, from Pearland due to constant harassment. They have a first grader M to F daughter. They hope Austin schools are more supportive. Pearland was not, in any way. More to come with Texas-wide bathroom bill reboot in 2018 session.

[suzanne]

I've seen a political ad that showed the sicko perv skulking his way into the ladies to do God knows what. It sure does play on peoples fears.

It just occurred to me that the answer to the sicko perv is to completely eliminate men only and women only washrooms. So with a mix of men and women in the room, Sicko Pervman would never get a chance to do anything before the Real Men took care of him. Privacy? Are there no stalls? Even the urinals now have dividers so theres no chance of accidentally exposing a penis.

[mylilsecret8]

Question regarding one of the "other laws"... Occasionally I will wear a woman's string bikini bottom to the beach (I'm not passable). For the most part, I haven't had any problems beyond getting odd looks and occasional over hear rude comment. A few months ago I was at a public beach and heard someone walk by and she asked her friend "Isn't that illegal now?" With all the publicity regarding bathrooms, has anyone heard if there are areas enforcing laws against genetic males wearing women's bikini bottoms (full back coverage) at public beaches?

[Jenn26]

Florida has some local ordinances that ban thong type bathing suits for GG and I would assume males too. But it goes by the local rules. Miami has nothing against thongs, but Walton County is a far different story. That is just Florida, not sure about other states or areas.

[Nicole Erin]

So we know about transgender and the standard FTM and MTF.

What about all these invented genders that some come up with for themselves. If someone who was in high school band and identifies as a different gender, say calling themselves "TransSiberianOrchedechtomy" or whatever, does Target still let them use the restroom of their choice?

[ginapoodle]

So all posts after May, 2016 deleted? Or moved? Whoops, now they show up, using another link... hmmm

[Fran-K]

Hi

For those of us who are Massachusetts (USA) residents ... in case you didn't see it -- the voter information booklet arrived yesterday and question 3, to keep transgender rights is on the ballot. Also is a form to register by mail. So if you're not registered please register. And vote!

The ballot question is whether we should keep the current laws (a YES vote) or not (a NO vote).

Summaries of the ballot questions can be found at https://www.sec.state.ma.us/ele/ele18/ballot_questions_18/ballot_questions18.htm

Other voter information at https://www.sec.state.ma.us/ele/

Fran

[Joanna50]

I do the same. Too scared to be kicked out, laughed at.

[Aunt Kelly]

Haters in the Texas legislature are at it once again. They have introduced "Texas Occupational License RFRA" (SB 444). The stated purpose is to "...allow private individuals employed in over 65 licensed occupations to deny services to people based on their sincerely held religious belief." Needless to say, this is a very slippery slope, not to mention the height of hypocrisy. Imagine, physicians, nurses, and other licensed care givers refusing to provide medical care to someone because they claim their religion doesn't allow it.

I could rant for hours on this, but I will simply ask that, if you live in Texas, at least take the time to send this message (https://secure.everyaction.com/z317WICFKECO_JbwbknUmg2) to your elected representatives.

[Cristy2]

I doubt seriously SB 444 will pass. They tried it back when GW Bush was governor and it was very soundly shot down because it was not specific and odds are that it will get shot down again.

[Darla]

Not very much activity here on this thread despite the laws and executive orders being written that are absolutely discriminatory to our community. Beuler? Beuler?

[Brenda Leigh]

Its a case of there hasn't been a problem in the past so lets all of a sudden make it a problem.
A solution to a problem that never existed is one way of looking at it.
I sent a scathing email to Kay Daly running for congress in NC and called her out basically chastising her for not even wanting to understand or learn what TGism is.
She called us sexual deviants and said transgenderism is a mental disorder.
I went off if in a nice way of course but told her what I thought of her.Sexual Deviant, that was one diagnosis given to me 43 years ago by a psychiatrist because I enjoyed crossdressing!!! My last diagnosis was Gender Dysphoria so you best write her back and get her updated!! LoL

[Robertacd]

I don't know if this has been brought up yet because I haven't read this entire thread. But recently this has been an issue at more than one local club.

In the state of Washington we have some protection.

WAC 162-32-060 Gender-segregated facilities.https://app.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=162-32-060

WAC 162-32-060
Gender-segregated facilities.
(1) Facility use. All covered entities shall allow individuals the use of gender-segregated facilities, such as restrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, and homeless or emergency shelters, that are consistent with that individual's gender expression or gender identity.
In such facilities where undressing in the presence of others occurs, covered entities shall allow access to and use of a facility consistent with that individual's gender expression or gender identity.
(2) Cannot require use inconsistent with gender expression or gender identity. A covered entity shall not request or require an individual to use a gender-segregated facility that is inconsistent with that individual's gender expression or gender identity, or request or require an individual to use a separate or gender-neutral facility.
(a) If another person expresses concern or discomfort about a person who uses a facility that is consistent with the person's gender expression or gender identity, the person expressing discomfort should be directed to a separate or gender-neutral facility, if available.
(b) Any action taken against a person who is using a restroom or other gender-segregated facility, such as removing a person, should be taken due to that person's actions or behavior while in the facility, and must be unrelated to gender expression or gender identity. The same standards of conduct and behavior must be consistently applied to all facility users, regardless of gender expression or gender identity.
(3) Provision of options encouraged. Whenever feasible, covered entities are encouraged to provide options for privacy, such as single-use gender-neutral bathrooms or private changing areas, that are available to any individual desiring privacy.

[Stephanie47]

My municipality (Tacoma, Washington) has enacted an ordinance which designates any single occupancy bathroom as gender neutral. All must have signage to indicate the restrooms are gender neutral. No more men's room or women's room for single occupancy bathrooms.

[Aunt Kelly]

I was going to say that that's a step in the right direction, but upon reflection it feels more sideways. If understand correctly, any restroom with more than one... fixture, is still gender specific. Yes?

[Christy15]

Single occupancy bathrooms with gender labels of any kind never made sense to me. To have one gender - of any type, stand in line while the same thing with a different sign the next door over completely empty - just seems inefficient and silly! Good on Tacoma- that should be an easy low hanging fruit for many areas to address.

[Stephanie47]

I was going to say that that's a step in the right direction, but upon reflection it feels more sideways. If understand correctly, any restroom with more than one... fixture, is still gender specific. Yes?

Yes. The reasoning for the ordinance was to accommodate the privacy of all concerned. It was in response to transgender persons trying to avoid confrontations with others. Washington State law does allow for any person to use the restrooms of which he or she identifies. That is not to say the law will protect someone all the time. Laying bloodied on the ground may have the aggressor subject to a hate crime, but, that is after the fact. Now at least there is no sign which appears to be exclusionary. Anyway, it was in response to the request of the transgender community. This also to the benefit of women too who may feel awkward using a restroom identified as "men's room."

[Stephanie47]

Gov. Pritzker signed into Illinois state law the bill which requires all single occupancy restrooms to be designated as gender neutral and have signage to reflect gender neutral in a place of accommodation or a public building.

[Tracii G]

Surprised this thread is still going.
All this time I have had no issues using the ladies room in Ky,Ind,Ohio and Tenn.

[Stephanie47]

You're lucky! From news articles I've read some women go totally insane when encountering what they presume is a male in a "woman's" restroom, especially if mom is accompanied by a daughter. Just about all the single occupancy restrooms I have encountered are small and have locks for privacy.

[Aunt Kelly]

You're lucky! From news articles I've read some women go totally insane when encountering what they presume is a male in a "woman's" restroom, especially if mom is accompanied by a daughter. Just about all the single occupancy restrooms I have encountered are small and have locks for privacy.

Like Tracy, I have never had more than a second glance turned my way in the restroom, and even that is rare.

We hear about incidents like that, but we never hear how they turn out. I believe that (if they actually happen), the vast majority end with the complainant being told to get over it or get gone. FWIW, I'm pretty sure that the oft-made claim that there has never been a successful prosecution of a transgendered person for using the appropriate restroom. That's because it's just not the issue that arm-flappers behind the bathroom bills would have us believe.

[Stephanie47]

In one of my previous comments concerning my city (Tacoma) the ordinance was enacted at the request of the transgender community. There is certain logic to the request. If the signage for single occupancy restrooms is gender neutral, then there is no basis for anyone to question anyone using the facility. As to never hearing anything about issues arising, there are instances. There were protests at the libraries in King County, WA during "Drag Queen Story Hour." According to an attendee some of the protestors were "guarding" the women's restroom. With the anti transgender rhetoric coming from the top protestors are becoming emboldened.

Anyway, making a restroom gender neutral eliminates anyone's claim on the territory.

[tinadee]

No problems for me, but I get in, get it done, and get out.

[Maryannginger]

I was at the library 6 months ago dressed and had to go. It was empty so i ran in there used it while the librarian called for me to come out by knocking on the door. When finished i cam out and they called the library police.
Nothing happened and they said nothing to me.

[Bailey_in_Mansfield]

I'm only just recently brave enough to attempt going into the women's bathrooms en femme. No wig, hair around the length of a pixie cut (although it's not cut as a pixie cut, it's a more traditionally masculine look), and a cloth mask covering from the nose to about half of my neck. (Yay for hiding stubble)

Have only done this twice: once in Target (because I knew their policy) and once at the local mall. No trouble either time. But I'm still nervous about this and would like to know if there's an index somewhere of each state's bathroom laws and/or various companies' bathroom policies? (I live in Texas so... yeah...)

[Cheshire girl]

I have used the ladies toilets when fully dressed with no problems or second glances for years. That includes standing in queues outside . I wash my hands and touch up makeup in the mirror in crowded busy toilets no problems. I wouldn?t dare do so if I didn?t feel confident that I look like a woman. I?m concerned to see that in UK there are possible proposals to outlaw the use of the ladies toilets by anyone who is biologically a man. I hope this comes to nothing as I can?t possibly go into the gents toilets dolled up in my finest!

[Stevie Lane]

Cheshire girl, I can't see how any such law could be enforced. If one looks like a woman then the only ways to find out are through accurate facial recognition which requires expensive camera systems in the loos (and everyones face already on record) or if someone actually gets a look at your block and tackle while you are in there. There are plenty of GG's who don't look particularly womanly who would be offended if there gender came into question and, for the transgender community, it would open a can of worms in a supposedly very accepting nation where to be LGBTQ is almost becoming compulsary. :) I don't think any political party would even think of going there (at the moment).

As a man I've always hated going into mens public toilets. I feel like a fairy going into a den of grunting ogres. I can almost smell the testosterone. Yuck. :)

[Aunt Kelly]

Eventually, we're going to see "bathroom bills" viewed as the hate crime that they are. As I've heard Judge Fry (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/30/us/transgender-judge-phyllis-fryes-early-transformative-journey.html) put it, all the things that such laws purport to protect "our wives and daughters" against are already crimes under existing law. She also points out that there has never been a successful prosecution of a transgender person using the facilities corresponding to their gender identity. Never. Not one.

So these laws are little more than a kind of straw man argument, designed to consolidate support from a fearful and naive group by presenting a threat that does not exist. If we did that on the basis of race, the outrage would be instant. I am just old enough to remember when that was not the case. I pray that I live long enough to see the same transformation of our society's norms when it comes to the LGBTQIA+ segment of that society. Recent events give me a great deal of hope. :)

[CDJamie2000]

That was scary And it can happen to any of us.

[Helen_Highwater]

Without getting political, I do suspect that the election of a new POTUS will have a positive effect on our community and the way it's viewed.

Hopefully some of the more draconian measures, such as those effecting military personnel will be rolled back. Time will tell no doubt.

[Meghan4now]

Helen, a couple of things you mentioned will swing back to where there were 4 years ago, but a lot of the bathroom stuff and some of the marriage stuff is going to continue to be a fight. There is still a large portion of the population that is on the Uber conservative side, and aren't shy about trying to throw their weight around. Especially in certain States. Also keep in mind that the courts have been heavily stacked to support them. Not just the Supreme Court, but many lower courts as well. The right might grouse about this election, but they got what they really wanted over the last 4 years, which will be difficult to change for a long time barring some drastic measures.

[Aunt Kelly]

The best thing we can do, the thing we must do, is to continue to provide facts. For example... There already are laws, in virtually every jurisdiction in this country, against the things "bathroom bills" are purported to prevent. There has never been a successful prosecution of a transgender person for using the restroom which corresponds to their gender identity.

[Alexis00]

MA is strange because it’s a True Blue state, it’s also the most Catholic state and many legislators are quite socially conservative and against abortion and also transgender.

It was a concern for me because I was going out a lot and worried about - everything!. During a physical I told my primary care this was an issue for me and I was working through it with a counselor. He made a note of “gender disphoria” and while that first conversation was awkward, from a legal basis I’d become transgendered.

As a practical matter, first clubs, then restaurants stores, and schools started breaking up their large single sex bathrooms into more, smaller ones. First they added “Family” bathrooms and then expsnded to small “Unisex” bathrooms. So worrying about where and how to pee became much less of an issue.

Haven’t been out in a few years and no idea how Covid cleaning measures will change all this.

[Kimberly A.]

I sometimes contribute to this thread when I have a thought and I just had one..... As most if not all of y'all know, I live in the state of Mississippi. I'm not 100% sure on the bathroom laws here regarding transgenders or CD'ers, I'm sure it's the same just about everywhere, where you're allowed to use the public restroom corresponding to the gender you identify as.

Now of course, I'm only a CD'er, I'm not transgender. But a while back, I posted in the forum with a question about using the restroom while out dressed and really, the replies I received were to go to use the ladies' room, act like a lady, walk like a lady, do my business, wash my hands and get out..... I have used the ladies' room while out dressed on more than one occasion and I have yet to have an issue.

When I go into a ladies' room to do my business, that is ALL that I intend to do, then wash my hands and get out of the restroom, just as I would if I were in "male mode" and utilizing the men's room..... I have YET to have an issue, thank goodness. I think some women who have seen me in the ladies' room sort of questioned my gender, (only to themselves, based on the way they looked at me but didn't say anything) but I wouldn't chalk that up as a major issue. If I ever get arrested or questioned by authorities in any way, shape or form, I suppose I'll just tell them that I'm trans..... That would be a lie, but if it kept me out of jail, then so be it! LOL

Anyway, just my two cents cause it seems like some of y'all are constantly over-analyzing this issue. :)

[Angela Marie]

Just saw this thread so I wanted to add in my two cents. I live in upstate NY which is fairly liberal. I have used the ladies room many times with no problem. But I am nervous wondering if I will be caught. I don't think much would happen if I were but it would be a bit awkward. Luckily with a smaller frame I have an easier time passing but I am still careful.

[SouthernPeach]

Like many others I have not experienced any issues with using the female facilities. That being said I also just go to do my business, not lingering any longer that to wash my hands and take a quick look in the mirror. The ladies present for the most part never give me a second look, and those that have give me nothing more than a quick glance and a look over if for nothing more than curiosity or the womanly look they do when checking out the others appearance.

[Aunt Kelly]

This may be a very bad year for hateful and ignorant anti-transgender bills in many states...
https://www.hrc.org/resources/unprecedented-onslaught-of-state-legislation-targeting-transgender-american

Twenty three of these bills specifically target the most vulnerable members of our community, transgender young people.
Please, do what you can to prevent these reckless attempts to politicize something on which virtually all credible experts agree.
Out of respect for the rules of this forum, let us not debate the politics of these issues here. If you have questions or suggestions, please PM or email, and I will do my best to assist.

Thank you.

[Stephanie47]

According to the AP, Tennessee 's bathroom law was signed which now has penalties for not posting signage at multi-person bathroom indicating transgender persons may be using the facilities. Not posting the signage can lead to a financial penalty as well as jail time. To me this seem a little bizarre. So, the law is not discriminating against transgender person, presumably under the civil rights acts for public accommodations, for using the facilities, but is alerting the general public in the sense of "beware." So, Tennessee is going to "scare" little girls and their mothers' that there may be a transgender woman using the bathroom? What happens when a daughter is out with her father? Does he stand outside the women's bathroom trying to screen for transgender women and go to jail for trying to block access or is he going to take his daughter into the men's room past all the guys using the urinal?

[darla_g]

I don't know if anyone else has noticed but there has also been a coordinated attack on transgender youth, like denying types of medical care or not allowing participation in sports. It seems to be blatant discrimination and more likely a call to unite bigoted people with similar thoughts. What ever happened to live and let live??

[Aunt Kelly]

That is exactly what it is; yet another ploy to garner political support be demonizing "the other". In this case, it's especially despicable because they're pitching it as a "think of the children" thing, when in reality, it's doing those very children very real harm.

[Genifer Teal]

I have two thoughts on this. One is that it's becoming information overload for the public. I get we need to educate them but I think they feel there's too much all the time and there's constant correction of their mistakes. That's enough to frustrate anyone and make them Rebelle. It's great that we're pushing our issue forward I think we need to slow up a little bit let the public get used to things as they are and then go a little further. It's not how much we deserve it's how much we can push to that point without pushing too hard.

Along with that I was using bathrooms here in New York City and just outside so kind of been accepting area without much trouble until the push came for bathroom equality. Things actually got worse at that point. I think part of the reason is it's Noble to fight for everyone's right but is it easy for the public to accept that anyone can say I belong here regardless of how they look? I know I'm going to take some heat on this but if Grandpa suddenly says I feel more like Grandma and starts using the women's room in a public place that's a hard sell on any one not part of our community. There's no police outside the bathroom so yeah anyone can walk in including someone with bad intent. Being able to claim they belong there isn't suddenly going to make it happen more. I don't think the laws will change that. I just feel that once we started declaring anyone should have the right there was more and more push back.

I think a better strategy would have been to show some prime examples of people who have transitioned and would look out of place in the opposite bathroom. People would be more willing to understand and accept that their ID may not match their appearance but they should be able to use the place which matches their appearance. This would not be the end goal but it would be a starting point to get the public on board. Then after a certain level of comfort and acceptance was gained, a push could be made full inclusion, with the explanation that not everyone appears the way you would anticipate and see how the public goes with that concept. I just think we've reached a point that the harder we push the more push back we're going to get. I think we need to take a softer approach. You get more flies with honey.

- - - Updated - - -


So we know about transgender and the standard FTM and MTF.

What about all these invented genders that some come up with for themselves. If someone who was in high school band and identifies as a different gender, say calling themselves "TransSiberianOrchedechtomy" or whatever, does Target still let them use the restroom of their choice?

Trans-Siberian-Orchiectomy. Love it!!!

[Aunt Kelly]

If "the public" were the problem, I'd agree, but that's not where the challenge lies. The public, by and large, does not see us as a problem. Those that do are, by and large, responding to the fear mongering from certain quarters as they attempt to use us as as the latest "other" that only they can protect against.
We should never, ever, back off from calling out this kind of deliberately generated hatred. WE are not "...declaring that anyone should have the right..." That's the assertion of those trying to make us into something we are not, a threat to "our women and children". That assertion pretends that there are not, already, laws against all the things they're trying make everyone fearful of, and that too is something that we should be making plain in our response to their tactics.

[kellyanne]

As of a June 28, 2021 SCOTUS gave USA transgender washroom rights a huge boost, essentially granting this right within the jurisdiction of the 4th Circuit by declining to hear this appeal.

Gloucester County School Board v. Grimm
https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/06/justices-wont-intervene-in-dispute-over-transgender-rights-and-bathrooms/

Geography of the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_of_Appeals_for_the_Fourth_Circ uit

[AshleyClaireSnider]

I just never really got the "anyone can claim to be a man or woman now" argument. No one polices the bathrooms right now or ever has, and no one that gets caught doing terrible things in the bathroom will get off in court with the "But this is where I'm supposed to be!" defense.

[dawnmarrie1961]

Separate is never equal. There should be only one.
When I was serving overseas in Germany I went to a pub that only had one bathroom. Both ladies and gentlemen used it. It had a urinal as well as a stall. Everyone was respectful of each other. Maybe it was because they we too drunk to care about sexual hangups like we American's.
Used to be we had separate bathrooms for blacks and whites. Separate was not equal. It took a lot of years to change how people thought about that.
So here we are again.

[SexyKerri]

I agree w most. I don?t like the i identify as so I can go here logic. It?s to open to be manipulated. I agree with having more individual bathrooms with sink and toilet and locking doors. Like the family bathrooms.

[Aunt Kelly]

As many of you are no doubt aware, there is a currently a coordinated national strategy to pass laws, at the state level, attacking transgender people, especially trans kids. As I reported in a recent podcast, the ACLU recently reported that they are tracking approximately 280 bills, in over 30 states, aimed at transgender people. If you'd like to know more about this threat to our community, I urge you to make plans to attend the ACLU Town Hall next Tuesday, April 12, at 4 pm EDT (1 pm PDT).
You will want to sign up here: https://action.aclu.org/signup/aclu-national-town-hall

[GaleWarning]

I tried to upload a photo of a gender neutral loo at a place I frequent.

Could not do so.

Anyway, it's the way to go - what do prudes do on an aircraft, for example?

THe whole issue is ridiculous and bigoted, IMHO.

[Natalie5004]

In California we kind of have the questions covered.

328414

[Michelle Isgurly]

Maine law says its ok for us to use the ladies room. I would make sure to be dressed and act as a lady though. Go in do your business, wash your hands, check hair and makeup then get out. There are some people not good with this but its law here so any problems will be their problem not ours.

[GaleWarning]

Just returned to the UK after spending four weeks in the Beloved Country. Very amusing incident to report.
We were dining at restaurant on a beach on the KZN south coast.
My SO K needed to visit the restrooms.
On her return to the table, she told me that there were only two cubicles - one for the boys and one for the girls.
There was a queue when she arrived. When she got to head of the queue, the boys was the first to become vacant.
The others in the queue said she should use it - not unusual, as I have seen this same scenario happen in several pubs.

When I need to go, I arrived there to find no queue, but both rooms occupied.
I was hugely amused when both doors opened simultaneously, and a young lady emerged from the boys room, and an older man from the girls room!!!

Free to choose, and presenting a male, I headed into the boys room.

Oh, and having taken eight air trips in the last month, I can report no incidents or objections from members of all genders and faiths to the use of unisex toilets This right-wing fear of transgendered people using female toilets is absurd!!!

[tbryant2k16]

I live in Manitoba, Canada where gender identity and gender expression is protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Just watching all of this anti-trans BS that's going on in the US is just sad. In Canada, everyone is seen as equal, which includes gender identity.

[OrdinaryAverageGuy]

I've used the women's bathroom before in gas stations, because it was vacant and the men's wasn't, and I had to go. I've also been in line for the men's room before and a woman came out. Whatever. They both have toilets, and most of us know how to use them.

[Aunt Kelly]

Texas Senate Bill 14 is out of committee. It will revoke the licenses of any caregivers providing evidence-based gender affirming care. It is a statistical certainty that outlawing the most effective treatments for gender dysphoria in minor patients will cost lives. At the "All In For Equality" rally in Austin yesterday, I spoke with two gen-Z individuals who were suicide survivors. They were absolutely clear on this, as were others, including expert caregivers (social workers, etc.) who spoke publicly on the matter.

[GaleWarning]

I've just returned from attending a workshop at a library in the very heart of our faith district. Over sixty attendies of all shapes, ethnicities and genders. The toilets consisted of two cubicles with unmarked doors. Everyone used them, without incident or accident.

Way to go!!!

[Kitty Sue]

Texas Senate Bill 14 is out of committee. It will revoke the licenses of any caregivers providing evidence-based gender affirming care. It is a statistical certainty that outlawing the most effective treatments for gender dysphoria in minor patients will cost lives. At the "All In For Equality" rally in Austin yesterday, I spoke with two gen-Z individuals who were suicide survivors. They were absolutely clear on this, as were others, including expert caregivers (social workers, etc.) who spoke publicly on the matter.

The thing is the people who are s as ant LGBT+ don?t care if members of our community die. That does not bother them in the slightest.

[Aunt Kelly]

After interacting with many of them, I'm convinced that they don't believe in facts that conflict with their world view. It's easier to live with yourself that way.

[OrdinaryAverageGuy]

"there is a currently a coordinated national strategy to pass laws, at the state level, attacking transgender people, especially trans kids."

The laws being passed are to protect children who are too young to make permanent decisions about altering their bodies. We don't allow kids to get tattoos, but permanently changing their gender is ok somehow? Already there have been many kids who got "gender affirming treatments" as kids who as adults feel like their lives have been ruined. They wonder how adults could have let them do something so stupid, adults who were supposed to protect them and keep them from doing stupid things. As they consider suicide, will that be ok with you?

My son wanted to grow his hair long with a rat tail when he was in grade and middle school, so I let him. Later he was mad at me for letting him, because I should have known better. Life went on, he survived and forgave me, but at least his willy is still intact.

I thought this was supposed to be about bathrooms?

[char GG]

The title is "Bathroom bills and other laws , discussion thread" - so not just about bathrooms.

[Aunt Kelly]

"there is a currently a coordinated national strategy to pass laws, at the state level, attacking transgender people, especially trans kids."

The laws being passed are to protect children who are too young to make permanent decisions about altering their bodies. We don't allow kids to get tattoos, but permanently changing their gender is ok somehow? Already there have been many kids who got "gender affirming treatments" as kids who as adults feel like their lives have been ruined. They wonder how adults could have let them do something so stupid, adults who were supposed to protect them and keep them from doing stupid things. As they consider suicide, will that be ok with you?

The laws are being passed because it's an effective political strategy to appeal to voters' emotions by making up a "threat" and presenting the candidate/bill/party as "the solution", and certainly not because there is any real threat to "the children". On the contrary, there is ample evidence that these bills represent a concerted, national effort to execute this strategy. The similarities in the language in virtually every piece of legislation (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/do-no-harm-a-group-of-medical-professionals-fighting-woke-healthcare-is-behind-many-anti-trans-laws/ar-AA1bsk3M?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=548e01ed31fc46b09c093fdef33082e1&ei=10&fbclid=IwAR0Y2xQnyAULYYEwxHweFPe5KvvYG8P6QqtKaP2Ai soYVYhwiRiYKW_4rMk) have the fingerprints of so-called conservative organizations like "Do No Harm" and the "Family Research Council".
The "trans panic" that is being fomented in red states during this legislative session would have you believe that the rise in the number of patients identifying as transgender is the result of "groomers" or some "woke" indoctrination campaign. This is a lie. Transgender people have always been with us, but in recent years, they have been more likely to come out, as tolerance and understanding have become more common. "Common sense" would dictate that, even with this new tolerance, no one would choose to be trans, given the incredible challenges they still face.

Evidence-based, gender-affirming care, for minors, does not "create permanent changes" in their bodies. The people who are saying that it does are, quite simply, lying. The standards of care for transgender minors are quite clear on this. Does misdiagnosis happen? Yes, but the incidence is vanishingly small and does in no way invalidate the efficacy of the treatment.
As for the incidence of regret, post-transition, the arm-flapping is about a virtually non-existent problem. Does it happen? Again, yes, but the actual incidence is less than 1%. Any medical treatment with a 99% success rate is amazing, especially in the face of a 40% suicide rate for patients who do not receive such care.

P.S. - The next episode of the Trans Truth Podcast goes live later today. In that episode, we will be discussing propaganda, it's history, and how the propaganda campaign we're currently discussing here, bears a chilling resemblance to a similar campaign carried out almost 100 years ag.

[OrdinaryAverageGuy]

I personally know four guys who have become or are becoming gals. All waited until they were legal adults. None have been harmed by this wait. I also know a couple who wanted to transition earlier but weren't allowed to. They are thankful for that now, as they realize they were just confused teens.

When you were 14 did you really know what was best for you? Or were you just 14? I thought I knew everything back then. Turns out I didn't know or understand quite as much as I thought I did. If I had had the opportunity to transition back then, I just might have, just to piss off my parents. I didn't really fit in with the boys back then, it would have made a certain amount of sense to my 14 year old immature brain. That would have been a horrible mistake, as it turns out I'm not trans and it also turns out my parents weren't the idiots I thought they were.

[Di]

This is a reminder of what can be posted in here.
No back and forth state your opinion
No calling out members
And no putting down one political group over another. AS IT ONLY INCITES the opposite party. Nothing can be learned from each other when they feel attacked and I am posting below the rules for this thread TO REMIND .( below)

From the first post - rules
You can discuss various bills like the North Carolina bill and the Mississippi bill as well as positive (for our community) laws and bills.


PLEASE NOTE: This is the ONLY area in MtF where this will be tolerated. Any threads or posts in the rest of this section that gets into this type of discussion will be deleted. Also not that if this section becomes a rant or flame war, it, too, will be closed. Specifically keep it general. Don't slam any specific political party, person, group or religion.

Let's keep it civil, no matter if you agree or disagree. Breaking any of the rules that apply to the forum will be dealt with, probably more harshly here than the rest of the forum. It will be a fine line.

[GretchenJ]

"there is a currently a coordinated national strategy to pass laws, at the state level, attacking transgender people, especially trans kids."

The laws being passed are to protect children who are too young to make permanent decisions about altering their bodies. We don't allow kids to get tattoos, but permanently changing their gender is ok somehow? Already there have been many kids who got "gender affirming treatments" as kids who as adults feel like their lives have been ruined. They wonder how adults could have let them do something so stupid, adults who were supposed to protect them and keep them from doing stupid things. As they consider suicide, will that be ok with you?


My son wanted to grow his hair long with a rat tail when he was in grade and middle school, so I let him. Later he was mad at me for letting him, because I should have known better. Life went on, he survived and forgave me, but at least his willy is still intact.


I thought this was supposed to be about bathrooms?

So, IMO the laws which are being passed is a well organized agenda being advanced by specific groups to display a narrative as to what the normal gender affirming care protocols and twist the facts to make it appear that what’s being done is “mutiliation”

Let’s level set:
1. In the vast majority of cases , Surgical procedures are not being done over the age of 18 but there are some exceptions to this.
2. These decisions are being made in most cases by the child, the parents (if supportive), doctors and mental health professionals
3. Pre-puberty, the extend of transition is purely social.
4. The purpose of puberty blockers and hormones is to allow the child to still have the ability to change his/her mind when they become age of consent to continue further with more permanent changes to their transition.
5. Puberty blockers and hormones are for the most case safe and reversible under a doctors care and monitoring.
6. The same group who claim that blockers and hormones are not safe are not preventing these drugs for children for other symptoms ( early onset puberty), which makes their safety concerns mute.
7. The same group who are against surgical procedures are not banning breast augmentation surgeries for cis females under 18, so again that argument is also mute.

[SaraLin]

I wasn't going to weigh in on this thread, but the following snippets got me motivated to respond.


I personally know four guys who have become or are becoming gals. All waited until they were legal adults. None have been harmed by this wait.

I personally know one guy who waited until he was a legal adult - me.
Yes, harm was done because of it.
There was the emotional damage (low self esteem, depression, socially inept, trust issues, failed relationships, nearly suicidal, etc.)
Ant then there was the physical damage (too tall, deep voice, large hands, beard, receding hairline, etc.)
Access to proper professional help (counselling and perhaps medical) could have saved me immense anguish and irreversible unwanted physical changes.



I also know a couple who wanted to transition earlier but weren't allowed to. They are thankful for that now, as they realize they were just confused teens.

This argument is actually an indicator that early intervention SHOULD be available!
Confused teenagers are facing a difficult, complex world while trying to find their place in it. Why would anyone want to prevent them from seeking help to find out what they truly feel?

That's the first step in "gender affirming" care after all - counselling.
They need to be asked questions like "Do you really want this, or are there other things going on that need to be looked at? Let's talk about it and find out," and have someone they can honestly turn to to help figure out the answers.

The image of the "mad scientist" doctors who are foaming at the mouth to do surgery on innocent children who don't know any better - well, that nonsense might work for the late night sci-fi B movies (and certain political agendas). It just doesn't reflect the real world.

This may be a difficult concept for non-trans folk to grasp, but there are kids out there who KNOW what they are. They're not "confused" about it. Their "regret" will be that they had to endure being treated as something they weren't and forced to go through the physical changes (damage) that puberty brings - before anyone would listen to them.

It's a crying shame.

[GretchenM]

I wish to refer interested people to the August 12, 2012 issue of the New York Times where there is an excellent article on how parents should deal with young boys who want to wear dresses. Let them, but in a controlled way such as setting dress up days or nights. Let them explore that. In most cases that mode will last a little while and as they get older will fade away naturally. Some will continue and that behavior will gain strength. The worst thing a parent can do is tell the child, "No."

It has been well documented that preventing the child from expressing their feelings will create problems all their lives. It creates a desire to have the forbidden that often results in secretiveness, dishonesty, deep depression and suicide. Deprivation of any kind will create those problems to some extent. The person will satisfy their urges in private and hide their things from others. It can become a bit of an addiction-like driven behavior. It is not the behavior that is bad; it is the dishonesty, the secretiveness, the development of a kind of double life, and all of those kinds of things that do the damage. Sound familiar? It should. Just look around at all the marriages that have failed not because one of the couple cross-dressed in secret but because of the dishonesty and unwillingness to find compromises to allow each person to develop and grow in their own way. How many times have you read here of SO's being more upset with the dishonesty rather than the actual dressing? Being secretive about what is natural for you is a result of rigid deprivation of indulging in a behavior that is important to that person's identity.

If the child desires to continue with the dressing and their behavior shifts toward a more female-like pattern then do not prevent it from developing; get involved and guide wisely and with expert help if necessary. This gender reversal thing is only a choice in some, but in most it is a part of who that person is and keeping them from following their natural tendencies is about as cruel as making some people slaves. Prevention of free development with guidance but not prohibition allows people to become who they fundamentally are.

To a large extent, this politicization of gender variance is, in my opinion, mostly just a matter of finding a group that can be demonized so the politician can gain followers. Those efforts are doing far more damage to children that are naturally different from the expectation of what is normal which is actually nothing more than what is common. There isn't any normal - all there is is variation; everybody is unique and they are that way naturally. We should allow that to be followed, but with wisdom as to whether following what seems natural to a child is REALLY harmful or is it just that we think it is harmful because it does not fit some rigid, idealized concept of normal that really is nothing more than the common. Reaching the full potential of human ability is not achieved by idealized concepts of normality but rather letting those wish to fly, fly as far as they can. Don't tie a rope around an ankle and keep them grounded just because the collective thinks that what other people are doing is wrong simply because the critics refuse to make the effort of open their minds and try to understand why they want to fly rather than deciding they should not fly - period.

[Aunt Kelly]

To a large extent, this politicization of gender variance is, in my opinion, mostly just a matter of finding a group that can be demonized so the politician can gain followers. Those efforts are doing far more damage to children that are naturally different from the expectation of what is normal which is actually nothing more than what is common.
Thank you, Gretchen. And yes, that is exactly what is going on. When virtually all of the experts in the applicable fields of medicine and psychology (including the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Psychological Association), agree that age-appropriate, evidence-based, gender-affirming care improves outcomes in patients with gender dysphoria, and when the statistics on suicide rates among groups with treated and untreated dysphoria indicate with stark contrast the efficacy of such care, how could any reasonable person conclude that efforts to ban these treatments are "protecting" anyone?
The real motivation for these laws is, as you say, political power. A recent New York Times article (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/16/us/politics/transgender-conservative-campaign.html?unlocked_article_code=qQMJjasV0tuNmJ ahxd9fWsNQjRNgKv4N8M9QrME4zk-72qmAbnY5BdvLRuZIX-0MmlNHoyd4K2Bbt2Yd9CFCzQZxlEfnNwCBmfPecRO-UUW1lwt-w9dWayDATiXa-6DI-b-lb2uKK9g3FoojpP-WUAAbkGMFF6_1EOPmY9yQ_L3HC3udAa3pEU4Bc6zs-RODpZUm10LX-xUNSuLwppXcPxCu-zKl7RcJU6HH5hLWyY8vpuFH3HMJ3GVO0eWGVX7RtkX3TYpiWj9 97H8k9U3NrT0ezoO-V9CJDdVvJLRw9-Gq-puJlNKEaGd6KRFrLBgPflsspAfv9sYpuExCW7km-gxCa6ScQwXNhMeJMI-ey3o&smid=url-share), documents both the motivation for this movement, and the cunning machinations that have brought it to the impressive success it has enjoyed to date. All this, of course, while that movement so cruelly brings harm to those most affected.
The evidence, I believe, speaks for itself most effectively, and I shall not prove "Godwin's Law" by making further comments here on those who've chosen to ignore that evidence in order to advance their own agendas. I will, however, refer anyone interested to the latest episode (Episode 7) of our "Trans Truth" podcast, wherein we dig into this phenomenon a bit deeper.

Speaking of podcasts, the authors of the NYT article linked above, both appear in this podcast (https://www.stitcher.com/show/the-daily-10/episode/how-the-g-o-p-picked-trans-kids-as-a-rallying-cry-303950459), so if you prefer audio... :)

[GaleWarning]

So, today at church the vicar announced that building consent has been granted for the demolition and rebuild of a new hall. Phase 1 will entail the remodeling of the toilet facilities, so that they can be used during the building process. Access issues mean that the six cubicles will each have full facilities (basin etc.), and there will be just one entrance.

They will be unisex toilets!

[GaleWarning]

More good news on unisex toilets in NZ!
In the tourist town of Russell (Kororareka) the public toilets in the main square all have cubicle which open directly onto the square. Some are labelled Female; others Male; one is labelled Urinals, and the last is labelled Unisex.
At the campsite at the Houhara Heads, the ablution block had six unisex cubicles, all opening directly onto the lawn.

Way to go!

[Paula2]

life has nothing to do with sex..seirved many people..do your best..and your team will follow you???


I don.t comunicate well. your freinds and family..you cannot comand.you earn love..if that makes sence???

- - - Updated - - -



I have pooped and showered. men and women. some transex ..means nothing.just people

- - - Updated - - -

Proud Union member. Back of my tombstone. My men saw me as a girl. nobody cared. respect and good leadership.. i don.t what to say. just be your self
in wisconsin you my use any bathroom

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Be yourself..Team leader for 20 yrs. they saw me dress like a girl. nobody cared. do a good job..soldiers love you

[Anne63]

So, today at church the vicar announced that building consent has been granted for the demolition and rebuild of a new hall. Phase 1 will entail the remodeling of the toilet facilities, so that they can be used during the building process. Access issues mean that the six cubicles will each have full facilities (basin etc.), and there will be just one entrance.

They will be unisex toilets!

That's very good news indeed.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not completely sure about the precise legal position in the UK, although I believe it is currently fluid. Although I've not yet dressed as Anne in public and probably never will, my usual practice is to use a disabled or changing places toilet where possible. Recently I was put on some different diabetes medication and the nurse advised me to wipe whenever I go for a wee wee. If I've got to wipe, or at least been recommended to, it's easier to wee sitting down and I'd rather do that in.a place that's likelier to be cleaner and more spacious than a regular cubicle. Also if I've been diapered under my panties and need changing, it's easier to get changed in those facilities. I tend to push the envelope a bit when it comes to putting off loo visits (a habit learned from Auntie Anne of blessed memory) so accidents occasionally happen. I have to be diapered on long trips anyway.

[Philippa Jane]

I have been watching the YouTube feeds closely and I do feel somewhat concerned by the hate and vitriol towards trans people often expressed by female media presenters. Just read some of the comments and you will see what I mean.
So much of this has come about in my view by those who (unfortunately for them) look nothing like the gender they presume to emulate. More often they have a YouTube channel and are making content just to be relevant. Had these "activists" not been so intent on demanding they be called her, she or madam perhaps things may not have escalated to where we are now.

Just my own standards below.

I personally do not believe trans people should be entering in female sports. We are bigger, faster and stronger which is an unfair advantage.
I also would not use a women change room at a gym; as without a wig and makeup I still look a little masculine.
As for those who claim to be female and still have the male genitals, no way should they be in the female change areas. They may still be waiting on GRS but this is not a reason to be there.
This is respect and mindfulness on my part.

I do understand what the recognition by the courts means to women. In that a biological woman is a woman and trans folks are not.
I would never presume to call myself a transwoman but would rather describe myself as transgender or transexual. In fact I have often been told I am a woman by other GG's. Something which I do not acknowledge.

I do believe it is instilled in young girls to be wary of boys/men as they are presumed to be 'dangerous'.
This is a sad situation as most men are not like that at all. Far from it in reality, but the bad apples get everyone a bad name.
After a full transition I do regard myself as no longer posing a threat to any female and as such I should be able to use the female restrooms.
I think that I pass but I would be very embarrassed if challenged in a rest room.
How do we tell who is safe and who is not???

There have been instances where some predatory men have taken advantage of entering female space claiming they are women, but the majority of us just want to use the rest room as intended.

How do others here feel about the way society is treating us?

[Amy Randal]

Philipa. I am in agreement with you on the sports and gym locker rooms not allowing trans people. I am also in agreement with you on bathrooms, the stalls are all private so what's the big deal?

[Helen_Highwater]

How do others here feel about the way society is treating us?

Philipa,

We share something in common with other segments of society. We're a minority, a small one and as such we can be used for political ends to be demonize and in doing so create fractures in society. To set people against each other. Those of a more tolerant disposition Vs those who often wish to find someone to blame for their own life's troubles or the failures of government policy. It's a simple case of divide and rule.

It's a very rare thing for one of use who's ventured out into the wide world enfemme to report bad experiences. People in truth very much ignore us. However a toxic media can portray us in the most vile of lights. We'll all sexual predators seeking to do women harm while ignoring the millions of women attacked in their own homes every year.

I agree that common sense needs to prevail in the using locker rooms. We have para sports so Trans sports would seem to have a certain logic to it and the evidence seems to suggest that gender neutral toilets pose no threat to the safety of women. Where there's a will there's a way it just needs calm heads to prevail.

[TheHiddenMe]

It's not a toxic media. It's toxic politicians and political parties. They can't pick on gays anymore so they have chosen another whipping boy.

As to restrooms, every female one I have been into has stalls and virtually all of the males have stalls. Everyone has privacy with a closed stall door.

As to Transpeople in sports, I believe absolutely they should be allowed, especially in schools. If schools believe that sports are good for the 99.9% of participants who do not become champions, then it is equally beneficial for those on the Trans spectrum to participate in sports. It allows them to make friends, learn new skills, gain confidence, and learn about team goals and camaraderie.

I'm a volunteer high school tennis coach, and I see the benefits of playing sports everyday, even though those I coach will never be state championship. It's the playing, not the winning, that matters.

[GaleWarning]

So, yesterday in London, UK, I visited the National Gallery and needed to visit the men's restroom. I was surprised to find only cubicles in it! And when I left, there was quite a queue to use them! Way to go!

Also, on Sunday the London Marathon takes place. The organisers have announced that trans women will be allowed to compete as women. Very sensible thing to do. Can you imagine the logistical nightmare of have to check the biological sex of each competitor at the start and finish? Not to mention that the women who are not dressed up as postboxes and the like, will be wearing running gear which looks just like that of the men who are competing!

[Debs]

I have been looking into this, its NOT against the current uk law to use a toilet in an establishment, men can go into the womens and vise versa, tje police will not be policing toilets in the uk, but its actually upto the establishment what is allowed on there premises, if Im dressed en femme and go into the ladies the people who own that ladies restroom can ask me to leave, but at this point Im comiting no crime, the crime starts when I refuse to actually leave the premises as requested, they then can call the police to have me removed. Also just to inform you in the forseable future I will be using disabled toilets where available, if not I shall blatantly be walking into the mens room and using a cubicle, and I think that will become the norm across the uk mens rest room, If I get assaulted I'll will just call the police as dressing as a woman is NOT a crime.

[Stephanie47]

In Washington State there was recently (this month) an attempt to create an "open class" for competitive sports for any student to participate in, including trans-athletes, while maintaining separate categories for male and female. The motion did not get sufficient votes of the membership to pass. It was stated there are five transwomen competing in high school sports. Most of the current "dust-u" centers around the potential loss of federal funding if the school district does not comply with the federal "executive order." I've read the amount of high school kids competing as trans-athletes is minimal. In Utah it was stated there were four out of 84,000 high school kids of whom only one is a transwoman. In other states, Maine and a mid-west state, it is two or three. The big issue of concern for the women is the potential of not winning/placing when college scholarship are on the line.

One of the news pieces I watched in the past centered on a high school person, born as a male, had ran as a male, then ran as a transgirl, then reverted to running as a male again. Running as a transwoman, the athlete won.

Another instance concerned a transwoman at the collegiate level, who had previously swan two years prior as a man on a male swimming team, then swam as a transwoman and won an important race. The winning time among men would have placed the time in 700+ times.

Part of the discussion seems to center around, if and when the athlete had started/used puberty blockers. I am not going to weigh-in on the inherent differences in strength which seems to be the key issue for some. For others, it goes further than differences in strength.

As a side bar, years ago there was a high school state-wide wresting match in my city. There was one male team that did not have a wrestler in a middle weight class. In order to compete in that middle weight class, the coach had the boy who was under that middle weight class eat his way into just weighing enough to qualify. Of course, that "lightweight" boy was wiped off the mat by a boy who was on the top end of that class. In wresting and boxing there are weight classes based on physical attributes of the participants. Even if a "mixed" class, where all can compete, this issue of inherent strength and natural abilities is going to not go away.

[Cheshire girl]

I’ll be continuing to use the Ladies toilets. I’ve never once encountered any issues and hope this continues despite the current focus on the matter in the news at present. I’d feel ridiculous and vulnerable tottering into the Gents in a summer dress and full makeup!

[Philippa Jane]

It was good to get some new perspectives on things which are happening around our countries.
We are going to differ on some of the things that I have written but I think we're all friends here.
If I am understanding things correctly in the UK it seems that the women who have been at the forefront of the movement have felt vindicated that they are now being told that they are the only true women.
I have also been looking at some of the online reports that the five judges one of whom is known to be biased towards trans people They did not look at the Hansard report which has the minutes of the meetings where the politicians drafted the laws. It is also a fact that no transgender people were able to put forward an opposite point of view to the court.
I guess the bottom line at the moment from what one or two others have written is that there are already ways and means to get around the problem of which bathroom we use.
I have been surprised to see that there are already demonstrations happening here in Australia in light of what has happened within the court in the UK.
We are still protected here by law but that will not stop those bigoted people from attempting to follow in the footsteps of the British courts.
Thank you to all who have contributed.

[Helen_Highwater]

It's not a toxic media. It's toxic politicians and political parties.


I don't want to get into an argument but it's the press who act as the megaphone for those politicians influencing voters by spreading their misleading information.




As to Transpeople in sports, I believe absolutely they should be allowed, especially in schools. If schools believe that sports are good for the 99.9% of participants who do not become champions, then it is equally beneficial for those on the Trans spectrum to participate in sports. It allows them to make friends, learn new skills, gain confidence, and learn about team goals and camaraderie.



I agree with mixed sport in schools. There was a program on TV here a few years ago which highlighted the way some teachers treat boys and girls differently. Pink coat hooks for girls, blue for boys. "Good work from that man", "Clever princess". They ran a sports day, these were 10 YO's and the girls out performed the boys much to the disgust of some of the boys. It's only once puberty starts to kick in that the boys tend to start out performing the girls physically.

I'm a ruby fan. It's not unusual to have players who are 18St+ of pure muscle. Those playing women's rugby are not exactly lightweights but given the physical nature of the game, tackles can be brutal, having a trans woman hitting a cis woman is inherently dangerous. Potentially life changing. Hence I think a blanket approach either way, allow, ban, isn't the way forward but some common sense needs to applied. Problem is, the debate has become toxic, a political football making rational decision all but impossible.

[Shelly Preston]

I saw a debate on the supreme court decision.

One woman explained that Transmen are now required to use the women's bathroom.

He promptly replied no the law states that men are not allowed.

When A woman explained to him a Transman had changed from female to male.

You could actually see his head explode in confusion. He had no idea and was struggling to speak as he did not understand.