The 'default' state?

[Robin414]

Not even sure where this thread belongs?

Do you think the femme state is the 'default' state, I've heard it said we're all conceived as female (technically) but things...change...after a few weeks?

I see SO MANY MtF transformations but SO FEW FtM that it makes me wonder?

[Tracii G]

I think they feel they don't belong here.

[Robin414]

I totally agree, but we're ALL in the same boat, right!

[Kate Simmons]

Someone with XY chromosomes is already half a woman. :)

[reb.femme]

I'm going with this thoroughly unscientific research and say yes. I just wish I could be femme more, as my mind rests easier when I am.

My wife thinks all men (actually she means me) are born dumb and some but only a few, grow in intelligence. :heehee:

On the FtM side of things, I think they tend to transition really well, but that is just an opinion.

Becky

[Fiona123]

My daily gender presentation is male. But that is a product of social conditioning and following norms. I think my real natural state is female, maybe gender fluid.🌺

[Sarah Doepner]

My default state is Utah for now. Personally, my default seems to be set on the spin cycle despite my best efforts to stabilize things.

[Jaylyn]

I only know personally one FTM and after they started transitioning I did not not see her for a while and bam I actually reintroduced myself to her/him again. He had a beard, walked and voice was deeper. I felt dumb after church when he told his name. I could promise it only seemed just a few months that she was sitting in the pews with us. I do believe FTM is easier and faster at least for the one I know personally. I wanted to tell him that I was a CD but figured I had better keep my mouth shut as a few members at the church are just now accepting the new male. Why cause problems when there is no other value in it but a shock value. Ummm maybe I'm getting older and wiser....

[Teresa]

Robin,
Again an interesting question, logically it could be true but the wiring can go wrong in so many directions .
If I answered from my own perspective I would say it's correct, being born that way makes so much sense after so many years of feeling different and not knowing why.

I recall a conversation with a member of my social group who found that some areas I think Manchester was mentioned , that one of the meetings had more FtM than MtF members. It that's true then it may be harder to find the default state .

[pamela7]

egg-laying animals apparently do need temperature during incubation to drive sex, not so sure its the same for mammals tho.

[sometimes_miss]

Do you think the femme state is the 'default'
Waaaaaaay back when I took my genetics class, it was said that the embryo started out in the female state, and needed certain things to happen for it to become male; if any of those did not occur, the organism would be born female. Which is why the laws using dna to determine phenotype and bathroom privileges won't work, as there are examples of XY females, and XX males out there in the wild. My own opinion is that the default state is embryo; it's nowhere's near being ready to start it's life on it's own just yet. And while the basic physical structures of the genitals appear present at about 10 weeks, it must further continue to develop to become either functionally male or female.

[KimberlyJean]

My career field seems to attract the FtM, I work with at least half a dozen and know of a lot more. Some are just butch all the way to full on guys.

[Barbara Jo]

All humans start out as female. This is why males also have nipples and areolas.

if it is to be a male (due to male sperm that fertilizes the egg) the brain is flooded with testosterone at about the 13th week of pregnancy to turn it male.
This is where things can go 'wrong' and the male bran is not properly tuned male or the female brain is wrongly partially turned masculine.

BTW, no offense to anyone here but...in this day and age it amazing that this proven fact about human pregnancy is not well known and accepted by the general public .
I guess it's like evolution. Some people's agendas do no correspond with proven facts.

[ClosetED]

Labels labels ...
femme state - what is that? Acting feminine?
female - to me, that is a genetic status of XX

Almost everyone is genetically XX or XY. A few XXY, fewer XXX, some XO (Turner's Syndrome)
Women have a Barr body which is one of the X chromosomes gets deactivated.

Genetic males who have a testosterone receptor defect may have testosterone, but the body can't put it to use, so they develop along the 'default' pathway and appear feminine, so generally speaking, you are correct Robin. They are conceived male, but are unable to change the way testosterone wants them to. And genetic females can get too much testosterone exposure and get clitoromegaly. Most often the exposure is post-partum and they are raised as normal women. such condition as PCOS.

Since women can wear pants and shirts and no makeup and society is OK with that, there may be less dysphoria among FtM.
There is talk of more estrogen-like compounds in the environment, but many of us began this decades ago, so that does not seem to explain it and TG has been around as long as history records.

Hugs, Ellen

[Robin414]

Thanks for chiming in with a real MD perspective Ellen! 😊

Hugs,

Robin

[Tina_gm]

There are more FtM than many think. There are places in cyberspace where you will see more than here btw....

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have been involved with trans groups where there were half or more FtM. They are out there, you don't see them as much because they are just less visible.

[mechamoose]

All cheap shots aside:

My default state is 'gay man'.

That isn't how I feel or who I am, but that is what the world sees.

Long hair, painted hands and toes, wearing pretty colors

::Gay

I'm a 50/50 bisexual, married to a woman (25+ years together) but to look at me by this measure I'm either a fag or a freak.

Welcome to my (challenging) world.

- (M to something) MM

[Robin414]

You're 'you' MM and you're not afraid to show it and speak your mind...now that's HOT!

I'm not gay (by modern definition of the term at least 😉 ) but I get the chalenges, that said though whatever my sexual preferences I'd say you're a damn hot human being!

[Dana44]

Strangely, I think my default mode is Female, but social conditioning has beaten male conditioning into me. But I know that when I'm alone I think as a female and go about my business. It seems much more calm that way. But I do like my male side also. It seems strange but that is what I am. I am what I am.

[mechamoose]

You're 'you' MM and you're not afraid to show it and speak your mind...now that's HOT!

Thank you, I'm just me


I'm not gay (by modern definition of the term at least �� ) but I get the chalenges, that said though whatever my sexual preferences I'd say you're a damn hot human being!

Again, thank you. I just like PEOPLE. I will try to curl whatever toes you have.

- MM

[jeanieinabottle]

From a medical standpoint, I agree with ClosetED. Genetic/anatomic sex is determined at conception with either XX female or XY male (I know there are some variations but really uncommon). X seems dominant during the first 8 weeks or so and then the second chromosome either X or Y seems to increase in activity. So at about 8 weeks embriologically, the Y chromosome starts a workin'. The problem as ClosetED mentions is that sometimes the testosterone receptors don't work or also can be blocked by something in Mom. The XX or XY configuration won't change. But they become more hormonally responsive. If the Y doesn't work well (Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) various things can happen which, depending on what occurs can result in a variety of things such as gender dysphoria. As well periodically Mom experiences a testosterone surge during pregancy which moves things along in male offspring. If that is deficient or blocked, things get a bit confused physiologically and to some extent anatomically.
A particular example was the use of DES (diethylstibesterol) which was a synthetic estrogen. It does have uses such as in some forms of breast cancer as well as prostate cancer. But from the late 40's to the start of the 70's it was also given to pregnant females with the false assumption that it would result in fewer problems with pregnancy. Wrong. No effect. However, retrospectively it was determined that female offspring of females who took DES during pregancy were more likely to develop vaginal carcinomas. But then the DES sons. There is found to be an increased incidence of gender dysphoria, abnormalities in the genitourinary system and intersex problems in male offspring. But that would account for males born between about 1948 and 1971 or so. Various plastics have also been implicated as well as other medications.
Peace to all
Dr. J

[Ceera]

There certainly might be something to be said for the idea that since the embryo starts out female, the 'default wiring' is female - therefore a reversion from male back to female would be more likely than a female later needing to switch to male.

I think though that the main reason we perceive so many fewer FtM TG people is twofold:

First, FtM GG's can dress as males freely, and no one notices or cares in today's society. So the lower-level cases where, for a guy, dressing in skirts and hose sates a need, without needing to shave off the beard or do a wig and breast forms, would for a similar female be sated without doing anything 'exceptional' at all in terms of clothing - they wear jeans and t-shirts instead of dresses and skirts and are fine. Comparing to a guy who needs at least the long hair and feminine makeup, it is still easy for a GG to do without makeup and adopt a more masculine short hairstyle, again without drawing attention to themselves. And comparing to a guy who needs the full feminine shape with breast forms and hip pads to feel feminine enough, a GG can still, in many cases, bind her breasts and wear male clothes and remain within society's norms for GG appearance.

Second, for those GG's who do transition fully, the outward appearance in terms of beard growth and other physical changes resulting from HRT seem much more successful in changing their perceived gender than the similar processes do for males. I have met several FtM TG guys in TG support groups recently, and the vast majority of those who had completed or nearly completed transition were far more easily able to pass as genetic males than their MtF TG sisters can. In several cases, even after talking with them, I would not have guessed they were once GG's, had they not clearly stated they had been born female. It seems to me that this is because for a GG, the receptors for gender change based on hormone presence or absence are still there - diminished in capacity over what they could do in an embryo, but still readily capable of producing significant changes in the body if the hormone levels are flipped to the other gender's norms.

In the wild, there are probably just as many FtM TG's as MtF's, but they pass better than we MtF's do.

And I agree that in a on-line community like this one, the FtM's probably feel less welcome or less a part of this group. They seem more likely to seek live support groups than on-line ones.

[Lorileah]

So much misinformation, so little time.

We don't all start as female. The embryo morphs through a development where they all appear the same. Vis hormones and genetics, the embryo transforms into a physical male appearance, female appearance or a combination there of (depends on XX, XY and Chimera or XXY XYX genotypes). You can't use that argument scientifically for anything. Technically we are all zygotes at one point.

THe "cause" is not known at this time. Wouldn't it be wonderful if they could pin point it and maybe they will find a gene or combinations of genes that lead to being transgender. I doubt, honestly, it will be a default sequence though. Having been in the community for awhile, there are many many FtMs out there (My surgeon specializes in that transition and when I was in CA the waiting room was 80% FtM). Realize that the surgery for transforming a female genitalia to male and having a satisfactory result is far harder and more expensive and a majority of FtMs don't have the time nor money nor want something half right. We do have FtM sections here and at one time it was active. However through many changes, mostly because they didn't think they got the respect they needed from the rest of the site, they drifted off. It is still open if any would like to be here. But really, look at the current threads and tell me why they would?

So let's just let the "We all started as female embryos" argument to bed. If that were true, then it could be manipulated at that point to go in one direction or another. Since we seem to want to put this in computer terms, it is programmed to develop if/then

[jeanieinabottle]

Again I agree with Lorileah. I also think that it is a bit misleading to believe that we all start out as female or that female is the default condition. Yes it is true that early on the X chromosome (that everyone, both males and females have) predominates, if one has a Y chromosome and if it works as it is intended to do and "kicks in" at the right time, or is not affected by external forces in Mom (medications, diet, environmental factors, etc. most of which are still unknown), the male develops. So in effect it is not that activity of the X chromosome early on since while we have a female (XX zygote) or a male (XY zygote) and they do the same thing early on in develpment when that first X is doing its thing, it is all about the Y chromosome, how it works, when it becomes active, if it is affected by external forces that makes all the difference in the world. So while technically, yes the X chromosome is important in the first 8 weeks or so embriologically, it works the same for both males and females and sex is determined if one has a Y chromosome or not and if things work as planned genetically so physiologically it is doing some basic stuff early on but that doesn't determine sex in the embryo, its a bit later determined if one has a Y chromosome or an X.
BTW, that is why we have some sex linked diseases such as Duchennes Muscular Dystrophy, seen only in males. The gene that codes for a particular muscular protein on the Y chromosome only is defective, hence Duchennes MD is seen only in males.
Sorry about the boring stuff. However personally I get equally excited by this stuff as I do with getting a new dress. So I apologize for the lecture. Next time I'll submit a powerpoint, huh?
Peace.
Dr. J

[Robin414]

Great posts, particularly from those with genuine medical backgrounds (and college granted MDs)

I know for some of us finding a scientifically provable reason is a moot point/doesn't matter/who cares and I get it (is it worth spending the energy on) but if our ancestors when confronted with something they didn't understand just said "who knows, 'The 'Gods' did it now go to sleep"...we'd still be living in grass huts. "Neil De Grasse Tyson"