Bathrooms. No political content.

[I Am Paula]

I was at the International Day against Homophobia, and Transphobia event, and concert in London, Ontario on Monday.
I was so pleased to see that the ALL GENDERS bathrooms worked flawlessly. Many people went into one, backed out and looked at the sign on the door, then shrugged. Big deal, we can all pee together in perfect harmony. This was an all ages event, so yes, young girls and boys used the same facility. All bodily functions take place behind closed stall doors...what's the big deal?

[pamela7]

and that simple demo is great. i suspect people fear more the rarely-used restroom.

[LeaP]

It shouldn't be a big deal. One side benefit never mentioned is that it would likely inhibit the cruising and other shady behavior that occurs in some men-only restrooms. More complaints = more arrests = diminishing problem. I do think you would have to be prepared for that to happen for a while, however.

I would still PREFER sex-segregated restrooms in most of the US for the time being, however. And in those, I'm also of the opinion that only GGs and TS should be allowed. IDs and panty checks? That concern has some validity but is mostly a red herring. Many have pointed out that trans women have been using the ladies' facilities forever with few issues. It is also true that GGs get challenged once in a while (often butch women). They show ID if the authorities are called. Now I understand the issues with trans people's IDs in the US, how they intersect with jurisdictional issues, medical history, even definitions. But I think those are solvable ... at least to the satisfaction of the majority of TS.

Finally, I don't support non-TS "transgender" access to opposite sex, sex-segregated restrooms. As I've put it before, men dressed as women have a different issue, which is mens room safety. A trans woman's access to a ladies restroom is a civil rights issue as well as a safety issue.

[Lauri K]

I am running low on keyboard fluid, so I won't say much here.

But I am tired of hearing a lack of support for "men dressed as women" otherwise known as crossdressers.

Is not their safety important too ?

Alternatively I ask why I rarely if ever hear about anyone saying they do not support "women dressed as men" using the bath room. No ones seems to care about that.

Interestingly enough though I feel like the male population is so perverted in general terms that they think every trans person is also. So they think they need to fight us on the right to use the facility that aligns with our identity.

[becky77]

I can see arguments for both sides but ultimately the nasty prejudice is abhorrent.

What harm is a Crossdresser really doing using toilets that have individual cubicles?

I mean really how rare is it that a pervert crossdresses to abuse the situation? And even if they did it's highly unlikely they are actually Transgender.
If someone is caught in any toilet doing something unsavory they should be dealt with for the crime alone.

It's like burning a house full of people down to kill a spider, ridiculous overreaction that nothing good can come of.

What's more dangerous to children the harmless Trans person who needs to pee or the Neanderthal thug waiting outside to hurt people with righteous ignorance?

[I Am Paula]

The CD, vs. TS in the washroom debate is simple. Like my original post, just open the washrooms to whomever needs them.
Men, women, Tg, and plushies can all pee in the same place.

[becky77]

If this was changing rooms I may have a different opinion.

But the majority of people use a bathroom because they need a toilet, if the world was a better place there just might be a genderless loo but there isn't typically.
So a Trans person needs to go to the toilet where do they go??

Realistically if a TG is in danger of being abused using a female toilet is using a male toilet safer? I really don't think so, there is almost no choice other than basically we don't want you to exist at all.

And were do FtM fit in with this idiocy?
:(

[LeaP]

Becky, the harm isn't in CDs using the ladies per se (my opinion, others disagree). It's that it obscures the rights issue for TS - who really DON'T have an alternative. To my thinking, it one of the myriad ways that CDs use TS issues to their benefit and our detriment. Most people have no issue with actual trans women in ladies rooms. They do with men. It's that simple. Mixing them takes a tiny issue to a big one.

[Sallee]

basically the whole discussion is a diversion from real issues. When it comes to peeing most don't care just go get it done and leave. Oh put the seat down when done

[Rogina B]

Just curious Lea P...How would a "TS"[T serious] stand out from a CD ? Under the quick inspection of a self appointed lady's room gender cop? Impossible ! There has never been an incident,so why the fear?

[Megan G]

I have to agree with Lea on this one, they are two completely separate issues. Since everyone's Facebook feed is filled with these stories of late my wife and I have discussed this issue quite a few times and it has been a topic of conversation when friends are over. When explained to them the difference between a male identified CD and a Female identified TS all of them were quick to say "yes you belong in the womens washroom" but were very leary to give me there thoughts on a male identified CD'er and in the end they all thought that no matter how they are dressed they should be in the mens room.

[LeaP]

Rogina, I have no desire to explain others' fears.

Many CDs wouldn't stand out. No challenge, no problem.

As far as the unofficial potty police, they aren't going away any sooner than internet trolls. They are a problem for ANYONE with passing issues, even if they have legal access, GGs included, because they can be intimidating. The actual problem when the real police are called is ID. As I said before, a challenged, butch GG shows her ID and goes about her business (pun intended). Don't have the right gender marker on your ID? That leads to ejection, harassment, embarrassment, being outed, possibly arrest and possibly being charged. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the pressure to accomodate CD desire for access to women's spaces prevents TS need for access, they can be dealt with however the law allows. This is a case where the additional numbers of advocates for "our" rights are hurting, not helping.

[Lauri K]

Civil rights are needed because of safety / discrimination for all of us under the minority term Transgender

I said it months ago, only a few listened others laughed it off.........the threat is real and in our faces

If we are standing united as a community under the T umbrella we have to stop all this non sense of I believe you can go to the bathroom because you identify as X and these folks over here should not because they are dressed as X but are really something else and maybe they should do x or x because I think XX or XX

Really why as a community are we not better aligned I have to ask ?

Which begs a question once asked here in a thread "Am I trans enough" Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat THE

Think long and hard here people, as a community our rights are on the line here, let's get aligned on the issue and be the voice of intelligence

[LeaP]

Sorry, Lauri, I'm not buying. I'm not part of any transgender community and don't believe one exists in any meaningful way to most TS. In the public eye, most people understand the term to mean transsexuals anyway.

I agree that there IS a safety issue for male CDs using men's restrooms. A serious one. There is even a civil rights issue on the basis of stereotyping. A male CD getting beaten to a pulp in the men's room has been targeted on that basis - that is, a stereotype-based form of male discrimination. They need to find a solution to that problem. And I'd be happy to support that solution ... as long as it solves it in the men's room.

I won't repeat my take on the happy family numbers argument. You can re-read it.

[PretzelGirl]

I think using as you identify with a long term objective of restrooms having no classification is the only way to make it work. What about Intersex people? What about non-conforming? What is the difference between a CD and someone in early transition? Or early transition and done and over with? Passing privilege is king and the rest is up in the air. I don't know, maybe I have had inclusion beat into my head too much, but I just don't see a way to effectively delineate any "rules" that draw boundaries around who can, so having no boundaries would be the most effective path.

[grace7777]

I started a temporary job assignment and at the place I am working the restrooms are single user with no gender classification. To me this is a great solution to restroom problems, and hope more places will follow this concept.

[Badtranny]

This is a tough issue for me because I know for a fact that there are "recreational" users of ladies spaces. I know this because I read it here. Hell it's a freakin' right of passage on the other side of this forum. I have read too many reports to count of a CD going into ladies spaces and being sexually aroused by the experience. Are we going to pretend that those thoughts have never been posted here? I'm not real big on pretending, so let's just be honest and all agree that this is A reality if not THE reality.

Now that we've acknowledged that, I don't know what we do about it. There is no discernible physical difference between a CD and the early days of a transitioning TS woman, so where's the line?

My journey took me through the whole bathroom experience. From being a little too masc for the ladies room to being a little too fem for the men's room. It's a long process and I never had a problem, though I definitely got a few looks in the early days.

I think the best thing is probably to just chill and let people do what they need to do. There hasn't been a problem, and there probably won't be but I sure am glad this bathroom issue wasn't so hot back in 2009, 2010, 2011.

[becky77]

Melissa I agree with you on the 'Recreational' use but I think that should be dealt with differently.
If caught that person should be treated like a pervert because that's what they are, regardless of Trans status.
A blanket ban to stop a few bad eggs just isn't the answer.

Look I read some shocking stuff on the CD forum some of these guys are more sexist and misogynistic than any guy I typically know who is Cis and I don't want them using my facilities either. However the larger percentage are using the toilet only for one reason and are respectful, normally the type of CD that needs to use the female bathroom has made every effort to pass or blend.

We could debate the finer issues of identity but the reality is most people just can't tell the difference between a CD or TS if they even notice it's not a woman in the first place.
So we are only really talking about those who have difficulty passing, of those a scheme to show your ID would see non-passing TS facing constant discrimination and CD having to use the male toilet which let's be honest would be a disaster.

In every walk of life there are people that abuse trust, but before these laws came into place worldwide there has been very little issue with someone using the toilet they are presenting as.

What I do disagree with is this idea we should stand united under the T umbrella. Which basically means 'we are all in this together except we can't come out of the closet so you TS lot stand up for us too!'
I find it hard to care about the Trans rights of someone who hasn't even told their wife and who fails to even have the decency to see me as a woman.

For those CD who are out and doing their thing as long as they are respectful I want to see them safe.

[Megan G]

There is no discernible physical difference between a CD and the early days of a transitioning TS woman, so where's the line?.

That's true, and almost impossible to draw a line on who is and who is not allowed to use a sex segregated restroom. If this issue was not so polarized right now and in everyone's faces my thoughts on this would most likely be different but as it is we are walking a very fine line right now.

Most of the policies that are written right now specifically state that you (the trans person) are welcome to use the facility that matches your gender identity. To me that is pretty straight forward.. If you identify as a man use the men's, if you identify as a woman use the woman's. No where does it say that if you are wearing makeup and a dress it's ok to use the woman's regardless of your gender identity.

But as mentioned there is no way to tell the difference between a cd and an early transitioning TS so yes a CD can very easily say I identify as female and go about their business.

What I worry about is if Bob, who identifies as a male CD'er who on rare occasions goes out dressed gets seen going into a woman's washroom. Most people know him as Bob, the hard core masculine guy, but one day they see him in a dress going into the washroom. The problem is this will just fuel the other sides fear, about men going into women's spaces..

I'm all for Cd'ers safety when it comes to rest rooms and stuff like that but as Lea said thier issue is not the same as ours.. The solution is to advocate for all gender or unisex bathrooms so the CD'er has a safe place.

[morgan pure]

I have never read of a single verified incidence of so-called "recreational" CD or TS bathroom use. No child has ever been molested by a CD or TS in a women's lavatory. None.

But hundreds of trans- and cross-dressing people have been harassed and physically attacked in men's rooms.

[pamela7]

One point is that the normals fear that CD folk are perverts, as they used to/probably still do feel LBG people are. Then they worry that allowing the legal choice of restroom of preference allows perverts to then crossdress to gain access to bathrooms. It's a fallacy or it would already have happened. Those kinds of wolves don't wear our kind of sheeps clothing.

[Sara Jessica]

Sorry, Lauri, I'm not buying. I'm not part of any transgender community and don't believe one exists in any meaningful way to most TS. In the public eye, most people understand the term to mean transsexuals anyway.

And has been said, we aren't wearing labels which identify our respective species of trans. The community you eschew is expressed in a variety of ways which the Muggles simply have little or no understanding of when it comes to discerning the differences, let along knowing them when they see them. Heck, even we cannot recognize such differences when we see them anywhere near 100% certainty and we are all in the know, well educated on our differences.

Not to mention that the separation that is being described hurts those on the TS path who may not enjoy passing privilege, particularly those who are not even remotely close to being perceived by others as anything but trans at best.


I agree that there IS a safety issue for male CDs using men's restrooms. A serious one. There is even a civil rights issue on the basis of stereotyping. A male CD getting beaten to a pulp in the men's room has been targeted on that basis - that is, a stereotype-based form of male discrimination. They need to find a solution to that problem. And I'd be happy to support that solution ... as long as it solves it in the men's room.

What about the non-transitioning-TS-who-expresses-herself-part-time-to-the-outside-world (moi?)???

While I am not wearing that label, others have perceived me as a TS, as a CD and for all I know, even a woman at times (gasp!). The reality is somewhere in amongst all of that fray. The issue at hand is pegged to gender identity. I guess I pass that smell test. I agree that this whole thing is not particularly about me, even though it is...personally. Until we start checking one's "papers" or doing a visual inspection prior to using the restroom, it'll be a cold day in you know where before I ever set foot into a men's room while presenting as a female.

Anyone who is trans needs to be especially careful in this day and age. And anyone who is a part timer who treats a visit to the women's restroom as a lark, rite of passage, or worse is an absolute idiot who risks damage to all of us as this mess is sorted out.


I think the best thing is probably to just chill and let people do what they need to do. There hasn't been a problem, and there probably won't be...

Thank you!


For those CD who are out and doing their thing as long as they are respectful I want to see them safe.

And thank you!!!

[I Am Paula]

A whole thread devoted to who is CD, and who is TS...again. Funny, it didn't start that way.
I seems only Sue, and I get the point of the OT.
There are signs on washroom doors saying male and female, or little pictograms.
Remove them.
Put up a sign that says washroom.

[Barbara Dugan]

I have to be honest that I have some anxiety every time I enter a ladies bathroom,now with all this current issue and media exposure I feel even more anxiety and fear that something bad my happen, especially when I am out and about with my partner because I know he will defend and protect me but things can get out of hand.There is no other option because when you need to go you got to go and more so with all the diuretic I take.

[jentay1367]

Quote Originally Posted by Badtranny View Post
There is no discernible physical difference between a CD and the early days of a transitioning TS woman, so where's the line?.

Well.....obviously it would be quite easy to have TS folks carry a letter from their Therapist with a seal of some sort that is universally recognizable and the protections that would go with carrying that letter. This takes care of those who identify as Women but may not yet have the plumbing. But it does nothing for the cross-dresser who needs to pee and has every much a right to exist and pee in safety as anyone else. Really.....it's just peeing and crapping. Dogs do it in the street. I personally think it's time to do away with gendered toilets. If you're really worried about your child, escort them in and out.
This really does seem like a political football and an attempt to find an answer for a question that wasn't necessary to ask.

[Jenniferathome]

..., it one of the myriad ways that CDs use TS issues to their benefit and our detriment...

Wow Lea, that's really offensive. While I by no means identify as female, what is really my alternative when I am dressed? The men's room ? Really? And how is it actually detrimental to the trans community that I use the women's rest room? I mean since gender is between our ears not our legs, how does the genetic population tell the difference between us? They can't. Presentation is all the normals have to go on. So the policy should be welcome all or get your gender officially tattooed on your forehead.

[PretzelGirl]

Jentay, we are trying to reduce the gate keeping. Requiring a letter is just adding more. And then what happens at the restroom? Who has the authority to ask for the letter? And if someone doesn't have one, are they a TS or CD not vetted by a therapist or are the an androgynous looking woman? Papers just don't work as it gives a means for people to judge. It basically puts it back into the same issues as making someone produce a birth certificate.

[StarrOfDelite]

One side benefit never mentioned is that it would likely inhibit the cruising and other shady behavior that occurs in some men-only restrooms. More complaints = more arrests = diminishing problem. I do think you would have to be prepared for that to happen for a while, however. .

Absolutely. While dressed in Drab I have been propositioned numerous times in my life by male strangers in men's rooms. More often when I was a young, in-shape athlete, but it's happened in the past 5-6 years at least two occasions I can remember. And, just to be clear, I do not play with men when in Drab, and I think that lavatory sex, like glory hole sex, is disgusting, so I was totally grossed-out.

These bathroom laws also seem to me in large part to be yet another expression of the Male yearning for a Double Standard. The ethos is that women need men to protect them, but men don't need to be protected. A "real man" is self-sufficient and can "take care of himself." There are still millions of men who don't think that it is rape when a 39 year old woman seduces a 15 year old male, for example.

No one really gives a darn whether F2M trans people use the men's room instead of the ladies. And, there is a high order of probability that if F2M's should try to use the ladies' toilets they would be arrested by some hyperphobic cop who thought they were a Cis Male. There are documented instances of butch women, not M2F, but women presenting as women, who have been hassled, arrested, and assaulted because they were thought to be men using the ladies.

[jentay1367]

I totally agree, Sue. I was speaking in the abstract. I'm 100 percent with Paula. Do away with stand up Urinals in public facilities, take the silly pictures off the doors and put a pic of a toilet in their place. But that's not going to happen because that's an elegant, simple cure.

[Zooey]

I agree that there IS a safety issue for male CDs using men's restrooms. A serious one. There is even a civil rights issue on the basis of stereotyping. A male CD getting beaten to a pulp in the men's room has been targeted on that basis - that is, a stereotype-based form of male discrimination. They need to find a solution to that problem. And I'd be happy to support that solution ... as long as it solves it in the men's room.


I'm all for Cd'ers safety when it comes to rest rooms and stuff like that but as Lea said thier issue is not the same as ours.. The solution is to advocate for all gender or unisex bathrooms so the CD'er has a safe place.

Exactly. I agree, or at least, I agree that their long-term legal solution is not in the women's room. I feel much better about the long-term elimination of gendered restrooms than I do about allowing men into a women's restroom as a matter of legal right. We either have gendered spaces or we don't. I don't think a CD using a women's restroom should be a punishable crime, but that is different from having a guaranteed right to be in there.


Well.....obviously it would be quite easy to have TS folks carry a letter from their Therapist with a seal of some sort that is universally recognizable and the protections that would go with carrying that letter.

I know a lot of people think that carrying a letter is ludicrous, but I don't see why it is so unreasonable. It's no different than having a handicapped license plate or placard - it grants you entrance to a place that would otherwise be inaccessible for health reasons, and is often given temporarily during treatment. At some point, you just have your driver's license/passport with an accurate gender.

[Lauri K]

The only time documents are of any use is long after you have been harassed or thrown out of the bathroom, sorry but I am firm on not having to carry therapist letters everywhere I go.

Who would verify these letters for authenticity ?

No bathrooms in the USA have full time attendants ?

What if you forget your letter or you are out of town and it has expired and your therapist is on vacation can cannot sign a new one til next week.

And as for changing gender markers on ID's and DL's, where I live it almost impossible unless you have had GRS or can afford a good attorney that knows where there is liberal judge in a courthouse.

In Texas conservative judges will toss your request often times more so than not, this has been another hot topic around here locally.

These southern states are passing laws left and right regarding ID changes to get ahead of us, trust me they are that devious.

[Zooey]

And as for changing gender markers on ID's and DL's, where I live it almost impossible unless you have had GRS or can afford a good attorney that knows where there is liberal judge in a courthouse.

In Texas conservative judges will toss your request often times more so than not, this has been another hot topic around here locally.

These southern states are passing laws left and right regarding ID changes to get ahead of us, trust me they are that devious.

I know, and that is another big problem that we need to solve, regardless of bathroom issues. If ID changes become the defining characteristic for consistent legal treatment according to gender, it becomes increasingly important to fix the woefully inconsistent standards. Fortunately, a passport is always considered valid ID, and we have very reasonable gender marker change requirements there at this point.

[jentay1367]

Just kinda sux though that I gotta carry a Passport to pee somewhere.

[Zooey]

I obviously don't think that everybody should be carrying around a passport. I think that we should align the standards for legal name/gender changes on state ID to consistently align with the passport requirements, which should themselves be slightly relaxed. Legal ID should not be contingent on what state you live in.

Editing to add...


Jentay, we are trying to reduce the gate keeping.

I am interested in reducing the gatekeeping experienced by people in this country on average, but not interested in eliminating it. If we're going to have spaces with limited access, whatever they are, we need a standard. I think that, for gendered spaces, legal identity should be that standard because it's measurable, it's something we already have a system for, and everybody, cis or trans, nearly always carries it.

Personally, I think California's policies are what should be in place everywhere. Getting a court ordered gender change, changing identification gender markers, etc., requires a statement from a licensed mental or medical health professional that the individual is undergoing "appropriate treatment for gender transition". The words hormones and surgery do not appear anywhere in there. The federal requirements are close, with the exception that they do not accept statements from mental health professionals.

So, in California, I personally think we have the correct amount of gatekeeping. We need to make the necessary services more affordable/accessible, not reduce the number of gates. In locales where that is not the policy, or where practical issues like biased judges are an issue, we need to change the policies and eliminate the bias.

My hope is that we do this with a federal ruling on all of this that establishes a standard.

[Sara Jessica]

A whole thread devoted to who is CD, and who is TS...again. Funny, it didn't start that way.
I seems only Sue, and I get the point of the OT.
There are signs on washroom doors saying male and female, or little pictograms.
Remove them.
Put up a sign that says washroom.

Ain't gonna happen any time soon in terms of any sort of sea-change.

1) Infrastructure. You won't have facilities being modified to suit both genders. A sign just isn't going to cut it.
2) I hear that women are messy in their spaces but I rarely see it. Men, on the other hand, are absolute pigs. I doubt the women of our nation will look to share spaces with your average dude who cannot hit a target to save his life just to accommodate the likes of us.

[ariannavt]

Well.....obviously it would be quite easy to have TS folks carry a letter from their Therapist with a seal of some sort that is universally recognizable

No, please don't make me (or anyone) have to produce papers to pee. :(

[LeaP]

The simplest (but hardly the only) solution is a federal rule on gender markers, if not for birth certificates, at least for common state-issued IDs (license, DMV-issued IDs). Medical grounds can be negotiated. It's probably coming anyway on the basis Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. It is THE basis for almost all the progress made in the US.

Jennifer - You have a different issue. It needs its own solution. As do non-transitioners, part-timers, etc.

[Dana44]

There is no big deal at a major function. I seen women come into the men's room as they have to pee and the woman's room is full with waiting lines. No issues there. But if I am in heels, skirt or dress, why in the world would I ever go in the men's room. This world is becoming a crazy place. My default mode is female but I'm in a male body. There should be no problems and I have not had one yet. However it now is on my mind and wow if you got to pee you got to pee. We learned in first grade you can't put a square peg in a round hole. So if you are dressed as a babe , the men's room is off limits. why, Why, Why, is this an issue anyways and it sure is. Bigoted people wanting to have their own way with no solution in sight.

[jentay1367]

Because the reality is, Men have a segment of their population that seems, well, predatory. Women don't share this attribute....at least not as a social norm. So a woman in the Men's Room is no threat, no big deal. A Man in the Woman's Room?? That's a completely different circumstance. We're victims of testosterone again. Only this time, it's not yours.

[Georgette_USA]

I have empathy with all Trans Ladies with all these laws limiting bathroom access.

As a Post TS who has used the ladies facilities for close to 40 years, with one year prior to SRS with only one possible incident. Never had the need to use a women's shower facility.

Legally I have all the required documentation. Lucky for that. My partner could not get her Birth Certificate changed in WASH DC, this was in 1977.

Documentation or not, I think the problems we could face would be the self appointed bathroom police bullies.

I have one friend who says even if they have separate "all Gender bathroom" and "ladies", she would still use the ladies. Why would one want to out oneself. That is part of the problem the Trans Youth have at schools.

I have NO problem with any female looking person using the same facility. At this weekends Trans Pride Day here. A CD friend and I went into a ladies together, no urinals. She went into one stall and I in the one next to it. As I was sitting I noticed she stood to pee. Please all sit so as not to bring undo attention to oneself. I did not mention it to her as that is her privilege. I guess if we had stalls to the floor that wouldn't have been obvious.

Not so sure having letters from Therapists and such would satisfy the states with those laws, or make any difference to those who have made themselves the bathroom police. And that would not help CDs.

[Marcelle]

Argg . . . the bathroom debate. I have never understood people's obsession with where others go pee. Perhaps it has something to do with working with other women in a combat setting and when you are in field looking for a tree . . . guess what no gender markers on trees :). This sensationalized "TG bogeywoman" who will lurk in the stalls waiting to pop out on some poor unsuspecting girl/woman is all hyperbole and only fans the flames of fear and discontent. The unfortunate thing is that people (in general - not all) don't discriminate between a CDer and a transwoman and now everyone is seeing trans folk in every stall. Just look a the incidents of masculine looking cis-women being harassed and sometimes forcibly removed (by the police) all while trying to dig their ID out of their purse . . . IMHO carrying ID is going to do nothing. One poor 50+ cis woman was dragged out a stall by police with her pants down around her ankles out into the public area . . . no chance to get her ID.

In a perfect world we could just do our business and get on with it. Indeed in some places in Europe bathrooms are gender neutral so you would be doing your business with both genders (and all points in between) and no issues or zombie apocalypse. I have been in saunas in Germany where you are in mixed gender array with nothing on but what nature saw fit to give you . . . again no issues. Makes one wonder why North Americans get so wrapped around the axel about things like this . . . it is just peeing.

Cheers

Marcelle

[LeaP]

... So if you are dressed as a babe , the men's room is off limits. ...

You think a dress code is a better solution? Try telling any woman she has to be "dressed as a babe" in order to use the ladies room. Or maybe your rule is only for non-GGs ... in which case you ARE effectively imposing an identity rule AND a dress code?

The potty police will need more than IDs ... they'll need flowcharts. Which, come to think of it, sounds pretty fitting.

[GretchenJ]

My two cents on this issue.

The first thing that needs to be done , is to separate the bathroom discussion with the shower room discussion. This muddies the conversation, and makes things more complicated, plus it represents a small majority of occurrences, but the bathroom issue is an everyday occurrence.
With that said, I agree 100% with Paula that gender independent washrooms would be the easiest way to solve the problem, and I think in the long term this will be the final solution, but unfortunately this has reached critical mass today in our social circumstances.

I also agree whole heartedly with elimination of the Gatekeeper mentality, but I think this is not possible at the moment, because of the public's perception of the fear of using this rule for any predator donning a 6 dollar wig, or mustache and doing harm to ones son and/or daughter.

What disheartens me somewhat , (and is related to another thread talking about an authority based upon where you are on the TG scale) this has shown to be the case on this thread. If you are fully TS, you can use the bathroom of your identity, if you are "just a crossdresser" or are TG, but not fully out, or are closeted , you have your own separate problem, good luck to you and you are on your own.



I'm not part of any transgender community and don't believe one exists in any meaningful way to most TS. In the public eye, most people understand the term to mean transsexuals anyway.

I agree that there IS a safety issue for male CDs using men's restrooms. A serious one. There is even a civil rights issue on the basis of stereotyping. A male CD getting beaten to a pulp in the men's room has been targeted on that basis - that is, a stereotype-based form of male discrimination. They need to find a solution to that problem. And I'd be happy to support that solution ... as long as it solves it in the men's room.


Separating the two groups in my opinion, simply does not work. Furthermore, those going under RLE, or crossdressers going to the bathroom of their birth gender will only cause violence and more friction among the masses.

Also to this point.

And how is it actually detrimental to the trans community that I use the women's rest room?

I think that in Jenn's case that going to the MENS room will actually WILL cause more detriment to the Trans community than actually going to the ladies room, since to the outside world we are all grouped together anyway, and by doing this will definitely NOT dispel the public fear over this topic and just pose more danger to those who follow it

So whats the solution. I do not have a perfect one, but after some much thought this is the best that I can come up with at the time.

1. Instead of the Federal Government issuing policy on the school system, initiate it on all of the DMV and/or Social Security Administrations so that:
- anyone who is deemed to suffering Gender Dysphoria from a licensed therapist or psychiatrist can go to either agency and request that a Transgender (not Gender) marker be placed on their ID. For those who are fully out and wish to have their official documents reflect this (via name change, etc) this would not be necessary as their Gender marker can be changed to M/F or F/M
- this request MAY be accompanied by a criminal search to ensure that the applicant does not have any history of sexual harassment (not sure about this one yet).

2. Since almost all of us carry a purse or wallet with us, this can be easier than carrying a note from the therapist.

3. As time progresses, and with it that only truely Transgender people are using the bathrooms that they identify with, the id checks will hopefully become fewer and far between.

But again , as been stated all along on this forum, use the proper etiquette - Go in, do what you have to do, don't stand to pee, don't dawdle and then get out - its the easiest way to slowly garner acceptance -

Not a perfect solution by far, but a compromise and a possible discussion starting point.

[Dana44]

LeaP, no but what i said is that if you are in a dress or skirt and heels, would you like to go to the male bathroom. Not that any of woman would have to dress up to go to the ladies room. I would not like to go to the male bathroom in a dress. Would you and if woman is dressed up would she like to go to the men's room. UH, if you are a girl stay out of the men's bathroom. What I said is that we the CD'rs do dress up and no the men's bathroom is off limits.

[LeaP]

Well, Dana, I never wear heels. So if that's part of the required costuming, I guess I'd be SOL. If I did, however, I might not mind the men's room were I dressed, made-up, and built like some I've seen. (Not that you're going to see me on a magazine cover anytime soon…) Maybe you would like to add fashion taste and quality checks as well? I think I'll still have a problem – I like jeans and a top. I'm also inclined to those darling, round toed, Mary Janes that I am frankly too old for but like anyway. And what of the poor GG's that people suspect of being trans? Nope. Don't think you've solved the problem yet.

Gretchen, congratulations, you came up with the solution I proposed in an earlier response. Regarding your comment about what you find disheartening, I would not say the non-TS are on their own. I say they have a different problem. I don't think it is my place to solve it for them. Whether I would support a given solution remains to be seen. What *I* find disheartening is the insistence that if I do not support the primary solution that is always pressed, which is access to segregated women's spaces based on dress, that I am intolerant. In fact, as I indicated in my original response, I'm perfectly willing to give gender-neutral approaches a go (sic). But I remain convinced that non-trans access to segregated spaces is polarizing and its advocacy causing more problems then it will ever solve, even if it happens.

You know, it just occurred to me that despite all this focus on the danger of men and men's rooms to MDF CDs, the worst beatings I've seen on video have been women beating the crap out of MTFs. Just a random thought from reality land.

[Megan G]

I don't see how a CD'er using a men's washroom would be detrimental to the trans community. Currently the conversation that is ongoing at the national level is about transexual & gender fluid people being able to use the washroom that matches thier gender identity, it's not about what you are wearing. For those of us that this effects it is about a civil rights issue, people are trying to keep us out of the washrooms that we belong in. It is nothing more than another version of segregation. CIS vs TS/GF

But the people that are having a problem about this are worried about men dressing up as women and entering the women's washroom, and if a male identified CD'er uses a women's washroom this plays right into their fears.. Because a man did go into a woman's washroom...

I understand a Cd'ers worry and fear about going into a mans washroom dressed, I get it but again that is not a civil rights issue, it is a safety issue, a fear of possible violence. So what is the answer? Well obviously gender neutral/single occupancy washrooms address this but it will take some advocacy work on the cd's part. You need to stand up and be counted, get out of the shadows and be seen & heard..

Just because you are wearing a dress does not mean it's ok to go to the women's washroom. These laws and the national conversation is not about presentation, it's about our identities.

[Lauri K]

You know, it just occurred to me that despite all this focus on the danger of men and men's rooms to MDF CDs, the worst beatings I've seen on video have been women beating the crap out of MTFs. Just a random thought from reality land.

Lea could you please share a link to the videos you are talking about here ?

And how would an ID system prevent violence, you just said that "what of the poor GG's that people still suspect of being trans"

We are trying to find a solution to a problem that does not exist, except for people who believe in the boogeyman theory.

I have yet to hear a viable or enforceable solution.........Facts here for 246 years trans people using the restrooms in the USA trouble free until they decided to retaliate against us because they lost big-time on marriage equality

It is that simple ..............

[LeaP]

I don't have any video links for you. One incident that comes to mind is a pretty savage beating of a trans woman at a McDonald's a year or so ago. I recall another on a subway train. This is anecdotal not evidentiary. I'm inclined to believe that the majority of trans beatings are men beating MTF's. My point was that it is not confined to male abusers.

An ID system - gender marker, really - that permits trans women in sex-segregated restrooms (only used if challenged, obviously) would reduce risk to those women by allowing them to avoid confrontations in men's rooms. That's not a bogeyman, it's a real risk. Per my comments immediately above, it would not reduce all risk as not all abusers are male. Aside from violence, it would eliminate facing legal action for using a woman's restroom, although not necessarily harassment from authorities.

A gender marker is unambiguous and completely enforceable, just as it is today with GGs who get challenged occasionally.

246 years? What planet are you from? One could get arrested for simply cross-dressing in public as recent as a few decades ago. Someone found cross-dressed in a ladies room at that time would likely have been charged with a felony. In fact, that is what Harry Benjamin, no less, tried to address with carry letters. Gender markers on government issued IDs are not only enforceable, they may be the only enforceable mechanism available today.

[GretchenJ]

1. Gretchen, congratulations, you came up with the solution I proposed in an earlier response. Regarding your comment about what you find disheartening, I would not say the non-TS are on their own. I say they have a different problem.

2. I don't think it is my place to solve it for them. Whether I would support a given solution remains to be seen. What *I* find disheartening is the insistence that if I do not support the primary solution that is always pressed, which is access to segregated women's spaces based on dress, that I am intolerant.



Hey Lea,

Responding to your post paragraph at a time...

1. Sorry if I stole your plan, but I thought your post was related to making it easy to change gender markers for those in the stage or have completed full transition to MTF. What was I was proposing was the addition of a TG marker in addition to a normal male/female gender marker to deal with this issue. The purpose of this was to change the Gatekeeper role to not TS vs TG, but to umbrella TG to predator. If I was wrong in your assumption, my apologies

2. I by no means consider you to be intolerant, and I agree that I too do not agree with all that is spoken within this site or among the community. The other side of the coin is that you don't want open predators easy access to bathrooms is a fair point. But what you are saying its up to only Tg people to fix tg issues, and only TS people should solve TS issues ?



I don't see how a CD'er using a men's washroom would be detrimental to the trans community. Currently the conversation that is ongoing at the national level is about transexual & gender fluid people being able to use the washroom that matches thier gender identity, it's not about what you are wearing.

But the people that are having a problem about this are worried about men dressing up as women and entering the women's washroom, and if a male identified CD'er uses a women's washroom this plays right into their fears.. Because a man did go into a woman's washroom...

I get it but again that is not a civil rights issue, it is a safety issue, a fear of possible violence. So what is the answer? Well obviously gender neutral/single occupancy washrooms address this but it will take some advocacy work on the cd's part. You need to stand up and be counted, get out of the shadows and be seen & heard..

Just because you are wearing a dress does not mean it's ok to go to the women's washroom. These laws and the national conversation is not about presentation, it's about our identities.

Hi Megan,

I respectively disagree with some of your views on this. The issue has been a non-issue for some time because it's been acted on as a DADT issue, and with acting with respect of crossdressers, transgendered and transsexuals using the bathroom they identify with.

i pose this question, what poses a bigger threat to the individual and to the overall transgender community as a whole, a well dressed, poised and proper transgender female using the women's restroom, or a well dressed suit and tie, trimmed beard and mustached transgendered male entering the women's room. Using the bathroom of ones identity may cause a glare, for the most part people are oblivious to what's going on, however using birth assigned genders, or post TS genders will definitely cause than a passing stare, and will make those in that restroom uncomfortable, and will further cause a rift between the trans and non trans communities.


People claim this fight rivals that of the civil right issues of the 1950's but I think it more closely resemble the gay and lesbian fight in serving in the armed forces some time back. In both cases it was abou the threat of sexual attacks, in the sleeping quarters, in the bathrooms and in the showers. Over time this was proven not to be a problem, hopefully this fight will work out the same way in a much shorter period of time.

[Lauri K]

If you want to keep going back to ID's fine

I encourage you to attend a transgender support group and take a look around the room, everyone is at different stages in presentation, transition, HRT, hair, makeup, clothes. tattoos, piercings, facial hair, etc, etc.

No amount of ID's; is going to work to stop harassment and violence towards transgender people if some other person or group thinks they are superior to us unless we simply whip out and produce an ID that say's F or M

I am out of fluid in my keyboard..........but we are being subjected to profiling and ID' swill not stop that................it was not that long ago that skin color made a difference too but we are past that now aren't we.

I am not trying to have the last word here, but I am firm that ID's are just not the fix to this

[LeaP]

No worries, Gretchen. It was more a matter of I thought you had missed my post, not that you had stolen something. Your variation on gender markers could work, theoretically. I believe it would be harder to implement in terms of finding common ground with the authorities on criteria for TG than for TS, however.

My thoughts on who should solve whose problems is more a matter of not presuming to step into others' business. I'll also point out that this is the transsexual forum and that CD restroom issues are perhaps better discussed in the CD forum where other relevant information specific to them is in context – such as the aforementioned recreational and "rite of passage" sexual activities. Those activities, by the way, fly in the face of assertions that no incidents have ever taken place. Gratuitously using others for sexual gratification without their knowledge and permission is despicable and is clearly in the category of behavior to which the antis are opposed, even if no one is physically attacked.

TG? I recognize that the gender variant don't have a home forum here, and my beliefs appearing to offend some notwithstanding, do believe their issues are more amorphous (in identity terms) and less readily solvable. Per my response to Gretchen in my first paragraph, perhaps gender marker medical assessment criteria can be extended to some of them as well.

Lauri, i'm not quite sure what you're getting at with the support group reference. I have attended support groups in a number of different states. Large and small. TS only. All "transgender" welcome. And everything in between. I've seen tons of variation, certainly in presentation. There are those who have stood out for their passability. There are others who have stood out for being bizarre (to me). Every conceivable personality type. At least one who apparently, literally never bathed. The one common element is that there is a clear delineation between those whose gender identity is cross sexed and those whose is not … even among those who don't know it yet.

I emphatically reject your comment on superiority. Difference is not superiority. The assertion of difference is not arrogance. The explication of difference is not discriminatory in the subjective sense. And the masking of difference is destructive to diversity.

[Rogina B]

The one common element is that there is a clear delineation between those whose gender identity is cross sexed and those whose is not … even among those who don't know it yet. LOL ! Proper restroom behavior PERHAPS levels the field ! If any person is in "awe of a place to pee" and it is a conquest...then they don't belong there. In almost 12 years of living an out life,I have peed in a zillion places all over the globe. Never an incident because..I behave as a lady..

[LeaP]

I'm not sure what the point of your quote is, given your reply, but you are evidently at least open to the idea that not all are suitable for every option.

[Rogina B]

I am in agreement with you in that some people shouldn't be in there..Not a photography studio or a place for a gabfest. However,they will surely take a lot of "guff" for going in the "Men's" and to some,that is a "reveal"..Even though they don't pass muster,they want to think they do.lol

[Nicole Erin]

There is another easy solution -
Wait until the restroom is vacant and then go in to take care of business.

[Zooey]

What exactly is that a solution to? That's what I think people who don't have a guaranteed right to be in there should do (like CDs), but for people with gender marker changes, etc. that's just patently ridiculous.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

wait....

that would take common sense~!!!!!!!

[jentay1367]

The gift of passing, blending, whatever you choose to call it, makes the whole issue moot. If you're not able to achieve that, regardless of your intentions or markers, you have to be more vigilant and realistic. For the foreseeable future, if you're somewhere in the spectrum that would draw attention, I would think waiting for the facilities to be empty before entering would simply be prudent.

[AllieSF]

Yes, wait for the large bathroom at the bar or restaurant to empty as people continue to get up during your wait to use said facility. I had a severe swallowing issue caused by GERD, acid reflux. When I had something stuck in my throat, I had to get in the bathroom to gag it out. The same for needing to pee, when I have to really go, waiting for that perfect moment is also totally ridiculous. We do not live in a perfect ideal world and need to compromise in just about everything we do in life. Who should be in there is one of those compromises. Some States get it right, others have not yet. Here in California we CD's and gender variant people can pick which restroom works best for us. Until someone can show meaningful data that it does not work, it is a very workable solution that those who disagree need to compromise about. It really is that simple.

[jentay1367]

It really is that simple.


If it were only so......nothing about "our" world is simple.

[Badtranny]

it would be a lot simpler if so many of the closeted CD's would stop supporting laws like this.

...and by supporting, I mean voting for the miserable SOB's that hate us.

[Rogina B]

Absolutely right !

[Jenniferathome]

Melissa, do you really think closeted CDs are determining any outcome? I can't imagine any cross dresser voting in favor of these laws or voting for a politician who supports them, but our numbers are so insignificant it doesn't matter. Much more likely is the politician who is in the closet and votes against inclusion to prove they are really straight. We had one in Idaho, Sen Craig. You might remember him getting busted in the mens room in Minneapolis airport.

[emma5410]

I think people vote for a party or an individual for lots of different reasons. If you do not go out dressed, or only go out when you are in the mood, then bathroom laws may not be as critical to you as other issues.

[Badtranny]

If you are closeted and you vote against your own best interests than deal with it.

Don't expect those that are out in the open and fighting these battles to give a damn about you if you are literally part of the problem.

[Nigella]

OK, this has now gone down the road of them and us, thread done