Things men (gay or straight) will never understand

[Lorileah]

The last two evenings I have sat at home. I am in a new world. As a Pre-op-TS before I was in no "man's" land. Gay guys didn't want me, lesbians didn't see me as a woman, straight guys were afraid I would turn them gay. Now, post op, I find things are worse. At least in a gay bar, I was just a "tranny". I was treated as part of the family, and honestly I could still play that game. I could be the "T" girl. But...why then did I have surgery? I coulda done that without. I need now to move into the muggle world. No?

Anyway, I have sat at home and I find that my male friends cannot grasp why I won't go out on a weekend night alone. They don't "get it" because as men, they CAN just waltz into a bar and either be accepted or they can defend themselves if a confrontation occurs. I could but I would lose. Maybe it's because I have had insight from the opposite perspective. When a man sees a woman, alone, in a bar what goes through their minds (now be honest I know you all were chaste and pious knights of the defenders of womanly virtues before but be honest, what do men...in packs THINK about a single woman at a bar?). She is a target...either a sexual conquest, who if she says no is placed into a different category as being cold, aloof or a man hater. OR if she is open and friendly...she is "interested" and now a target in a different manner and "want's him".

I find my male friends don't get this because they have never been vulnerable. Gay males can "butch up" in public. Me? I will still be at best a single woman or at worst the "Tranny"

So what's to do? I stayed home (which by the way really sucks when there is nothing on TV...which is the norm). And I catch hell from male friends for being a recluse now (while they go to bars that have themes that as a T I would NEVER fit). I try and explain that I just can't be alone, in public, anymore. I am not a man. I am a target in many ways now. I can't relax. And honestly, if I wanted to be alone I'd stay home. At least the drinks and food are cheaper.

For 50 years I didn't see this. Now it is obvious. But now the question, as we transition to womanhood, what else changes for us? Things we may have taken for granted?

[Zooey]

A small subsection of a list I could probably keep writing forever...

What it feels like...


...to be fundamentally devalued by men on a regular basis
...to be justifiably suspicious of unprompted male attention
...to be objectified sexually (most men, at least; strippers and gigelos exempted)
...to have men explain your gender to you
...to have to wonder what a bunch of men are going to try to do to your healthcare next
...to have men rarely accept your opinions/suggestions/statements at face value
...to have men routinely co-opt the credit for your ideas
...to be routinely told that you're being loud/bossy/rude/pretentious for having an opinion
...to be told, unprompted, how much nicer you'd look if you just dieted yourself into a skeleton (this happened to me recently, by Dr. Osterhout no less...)

The list goes on and on, but I can only stand to think about it so much after this past week here. I'm not even going to mention some of the creepy shit I got via PM this week.

[KellyJameson]

If you like to read I suggest a book called "Self Made Man" by Norah Vincent.

She lived for eighteen months as a man and the experience caused her to have a nervous breakdown.

It is eye opening how each sex learns to solve the problems of being born that sex and how it becomes second nature. Her insights in my opinion are profound. She unknowingly articulated many of the experiences trans people contend with that are called gender dysphoria by inserting herself into a world opposite the one she understood.

She thought she understood men but learned how wrong she was.

Transitioning is as much unlearning everything that came before and than learning that which women start to learn at a very early age.

The lessons are coping mechanisms used with and because of the opposite sex and also the one we live as and with.

Once someone transitions they must completely relearn how to relate to men and women because they are swimming in the world created by sex with all of its secret behaviors.

Each sex comes with benefits and costs. Risks,dangers and rewards.

A man looking in the eyes of another man may be seen as acting aggressively where not to do so as a woman with another woman may be seen as rude.

Social expectations are completely different.

Men and women do different things to stay safe and it may appear at first blush that men have more freedom but this freedom is an illusion because it comes at a high cost.

[pamela7]

I feel that Lorileah, and Zooey's bullet points hit home too. I'm lucky to live in a town where women can walk to a pub at night and feel safe. I've just come back from a day trip to London, where I spent the day with a women's group, and was accepted fully. I think the point is; "the man's game is over", "the woman's game" is different, where "both worlds" are possible for the CD, the trans world is learning to swim in the sea as a female fish.

You're right, the way men look at me now, even tho i am awaiting transition, is different now. I'm looking back and realising they mostly ignored my almost-always-right opinions and insights anyway, so no change there - probably a good reason why i have always preferred female company. It's a good eye-opener.

I don't know what else changes - yet - but I see no reason to stop challenging bs.

[Teresa]

Lorileah,
I feel it's very brave and honest of you to post this thread and give an insight into the final step, even if I fully understand or not I will sincerly hope it does get better for you, the surgery doesn't take away a good and active brain , reading many of your replies I know you have that inner strength to get through it.

I can relate the issue of people understanding or not by an incident that happened twenty years ago . I became very depressed about the CDing issue and nearly out of impulse rather than premeditation ended my own life, it was a very close call . Quite recently someone I knew jumped from a road bridge onto a busy main road only a short distance from my house. Suddenly it opened up those old wounds and it took me a week or so to get over the feeling of me taking his place and stepping over the parapet, it was so vivid !
To those who have never experienced that feeling , they will never understand, it did hit me hard because I felt life was OK and I'd got over feeling like that.

Our brains do heal and fortunately we can move on I hope you can heal in body and mind and move on to get the life and happiness you sought .

[Kaitlyn Michele]

well one thing i took for granted was that dilation is a lifetime sentence

[Badtranny]

hang on, I need to put on my helmet for this.

****secures chin strap*****

Okay go.

[Eryn]

One thing that I grapple with is the transition from being a transwoman to being a woman.

Being a transwoman is kind of exotic. My friends who know this are interested in me and, being progressive, they're very supportive. It's pretty cool to have a trans friend.

However, this is not my goal. I am working toward being accepted as a woman, period. I'm lucky to have a few locales and circles of friends in the mainstream world where I have never presented male and never revealed that I am trans. I'm well accepted in these circles and have even been in conversations when trans individuals were discussed (nicely) in the sense of "those people" which to me says that I was not perceived as being trans. This is as I desire, but it does have a bit of disappointment because I'm no longer special. I'm just a fiftysomething woman and therefore, in the words of Sue Ellen Cooper, "invisible to society."

Lorileah, My only suggestion is to expand your horizons. Gay bars might be perceived as comfortable for transpeople, but I've never really fit in. There is a whole mainstream world to explore and it is fun in either gender.

[Melissa Rose]

Privilege of any type often makes you ignorant or oblivious to the experiences of others outside of that privilege. That is the evil part of privilege. Lorileah, your male friends are exhibiting classic male privilege. It is difficult for them to understand some of the vulnerabilities that many women feel and face.

For the past 4 years, I have been working at non-profits with nearly or completely all women, or teaching in college with 95%+ male students where I am perceived to be in charge and more knowledgeable. This means I have not personally experienced many of patriarchal behaviors in the work place others have mentioned. I suspect it would be different with more men in the work place. It may seem very trivial, but one of the biggest thing I took for granted is how easy it was and how fast I could get ready to leave for work. The other is how less aware of my surroundings I felt I needed to be.


Dawn, you have the blame stick pointing in the wrong direction (i.e., victim blaming) and appear to be missing the point.

The problem is not wanting to be a woman and wanting to be treated as a guy, the problem is being treated as "less than" because you are a woman. Some of the fallout of this is being made to feel vulnerable. It is absolutely not about developing coping skills. Is cat calling or sexual assault partially acceptable or excusable because of what a woman is wearing, who she is with, where she is at and whether she has been drinking? Hell, no. Does cat calling and sexual assault occur? Unfortunately, it is a reality of life, but that does not mean anyone should accept it as a part of life. It is completely the perpetrators or abusers fault and not the victim regardless of the circumstances. The ones that need to learn to change their behavior (develop coping skills, if you like) are the ones who think it is acceptable or their right. It is not about wanting to be treated like a guy, but about being treated with dignity and respect in all circumstances regardless of who you are.

Feeling vulnerable is not limited to select locations such as a bar, but it happens at movies, restaurants, concerts, operas, when driving, at a political meeting, when shopping, at work - practically any place. It also happens when I am out with friends and not only when I am alone. When others behave in ways to make you feel devalued, less worthy, disrespected and fearful, it is their fault and they need to change their ways. Do I resent and feel angry there are times and places where I walk to my car a little faster, constantly scan my surroundings, hold my purse closer to my body, keep my car keys in my hand, and immediately lock my car door as soon as I get in? Yes, I do. Or assume the worse of a man I know nothing about, or avoid eye contact or small talk because I do not want to inadvertently send the wrong signal to the wrong person. Yes, I do. Is it my fault or lack of coping skills? No, it is not. And I resent being told I need to suck it up, accept and deal with it because that is the way society is. Parts of society need to change and cope with it, not me.

[pamela7]

Melissa, your post #10 reminded me of my younger days, when I did walk out at night in fear, at the time rightly so I felt. It took me years to conquer that and walk the dark backstreets of cities unafraid, and now, yes, it seems I'll have to walk there again constantly scanning and checking safety. Wtih hindsight that was quite a regular experience for women. So I think this does show at least one thing men (as i thought i was at the time) do feel.

[Nicole Erin]

Hanging out in bars or clubs may not be the best place to grow socially. They are great places for the younger crowds but too often there are the people who are older but still have the mentality of a 21 year old. Who wants to go to a place where you would have to maybe defend yourself? That doesn't sound like any fun.
I think if you found social venues outside the GLBT community, your gender status would not be an issue. You would just be another woman and not be dealing with "where are you on the gender spectrum" mentality of the GLBT community.

To answer about what changes -
Yeah there is dealing with men who think we are a conquest. You get that anytime, anywhere. Usually it is the desperate and creepy men.
The good things though is people don't ask you to do man stuff like fix things, lift heavy objects or whatever.
Women usually trust you more for friendship because they don't automatically assume you want in their pants.
We start to understand the crap women deal with their entire lives.

[Eryn]

Hanging out in bars or clubs may not be the best place to grow socially.

I tend to agree, if you are referring to LGBT clubs.

OTOH, I've found great growth in belonging to mainstream common-interest clubs. You meet people who automatically have something to discuss, and you can sharpen your interaction skills in a non-sexually-charged environment.

[Marcelle]

I find men can be very sexist and a lot of times it is quite blatant. My wife works as a paralegal for a major Law firm and they had a top executive down from corporate headquarters to explain changes to how performance is going to be assessed and not many people agreed with it . . . my wife included. So she stood up to ask how billing is going to work for those who charge flat fees and many hands see the file. His answer was not sufficient so she pushed the point. His reply . . . "Don't bat your eyes and pout you lips to me it is going to get you nowhere" . . . the predominate gender in the room was female and oh . . . it was International Women's Day. Nope men aren't sexist at all.

[Starling]

...dilation is a lifetime sentence

Does it give you any comfort, Kaitlyn, to know that cis-women can suffer from a vagina which closes from lack of activity? Granted, the condition--called "agglutination"--can be treated with estrogen, but many cis-women of a certain age do not want to use estrogen.

:) Lallie

[Caden Lane]

Lorileah, perhaps having one of your friends escort you as a "wingman"; obviously for company, but also as someone to fend off unwanted advances, and maybe, if you and especially they are lucky, he would get some perspective on whats bothering you. It may very well be a life changing experience for them.

[Lorileah]

Hanging out in bars or clubs may not be the best place to grow socially.

Awesome idea....now where do I go? I don't do churches. Grocery stores don't help. The committees I am on are all female. The associations I belong to treat me with indifference (a mix of fear and hate and wonder). So now where? The museum? The movies (can't meet anyone there). I will start a thread in a moment talking about moving away from being a "tranny". How does one lose that label? Never happens does it?

[Caden Lane]

Go somewhere fresh, do something new, meet people you've never encountered before pre-transition. If you have a hobby, find a group that revolves around that hobby. The best way to move on from being "the tranny," is to go where no one ever met you when you were one.

Ever & Always,
Cadence lane

[Brooklyn]

Lorileah, I don't think men are your problem here. True, the patriarchy does not treat us well, and that takes some getting used to after decades of male privilege. When it comes to integration, however, building rapport and friendships with cis-women can really help reduce the isolation that we all seem to experience. It takes time, and most of us we will always be seen as the trans-woman in the group, but there are lots of ordinary woman who have recently been through life-changing events too, such as divorce, relocation, disability, and so on. Being post-op now, you have one less barrier to being accepted.

Maybe what you are experiencing is similar to what most men experience following retirement? After a lifetime of competing against other men to establish hierarchy, they often find they have few friends outside of work, and can become bored with so few relationships. Women seem to be hierarchical as well, but it's based more on who your friends are and their perceived status. Let's face it, we are pretty much near the bottom of social rankings, but that doesn't mean you have to be alone at home all the time. You just need to hang around more cis-gender women, and gay bars are probably not the best place to do that.

Otherwise, re-runs of Glee always cheers me up.

[Caden Lane]

... You just need to hang around more cis-gender women, and gay bars are probably not the best place to do that.

SO very THIS. There is another topic where other sisters have gone to cross-dressing events and it was then they realized they were not merely cross-dressers. I too can relate to that. Perhaps you are at a similar point; where associating with other TG feels like it stigmatizes you. Finding more association with cis-gender women seems to be the most intellectual solution to your dilemma. I do feel for you and hope you are able to find a solution to your quandary.

[Laura912]

A former member of our faculty moved to NY so she could continue her specialty. She got tired of being known as the trans person while here. Interestingly she has become involved in a group of bird watchers. Although no hobby is completely gender neutral, is there anything you have wanted to learn/start but did not have time because of your practice and transition? Please do not think I am suggesting a hobby as a panacea.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I've rarely gone to bars and have never tried to pick up anybody (I'm bi) in a bar or club - the thought terrifies me. But given what you say about the existing stereotypes, I wonder why as a single woman you would wish to put yourself in that position?

The low-risk solution would be to go with a friend. That might piss you off, I'm not sure, but reality is that you'd be avoiding stress. I'm sorry you feel like a target going out on your own, but be pragmatic- I'd hope that getting used to going out with a friend would build your confidence; you might make friends, find a bar the new you likes- and eventually you might find that you feel confident to go there alone.

FWIW I'm a reasonably manly man (I almost never go out en femme), with no special hang ups or quirks, and I would find it totally intimidating to walk into a bar/club in the evening. I can go into a bar during the day, but it would be to eat and drink, not to look for sex. For that I rely on chance meetings, serendipity, casual encounters in normal every day life.

I'm not really clear on your objective. You have friends, male and female, so go out with them and take your chances. If you're enjoying yourself you'll be exuding confidence: who knows what might happen. Certainly more than sitting at home worrying about gender stereotypes.

[Badtranny]

LOL

In what world does a closet case have any advice to give a fully transitioned postie about life?

Only on the internet.

[Eryn]

Go somewhere fresh, do something new, meet people you've never encountered before pre-transition. If you have a hobby, find a group that revolves around that hobby. The best way to move on from being "the tranny," is to go where no one ever met you when you were one....

^^^ Best advice so far! ^^^

Let's see, Social groups in Denver...Here's a dozen...

Denver Gem and Mineral Guild
Last Note Singers Choir
American Needlepoint Guild Mile High Chapter
Denver Artists Group
Happy Hikers Hiking Club
Slippers-N-Sliders Ski Club
Denver Bicycle Touring Club
Mile High Experimental Aircraft Association
Colorado State Shooting Association
Denver Sailing Association
Rocky Mountain Radio League
Colorado State Square Dance Association

[pamela7]

In what world does a closet case have any advice to give a fully transitioned postie about life?


in the instance of observing that young women go out at night in pairs or groups - not alone.

[Deborah_UK]

Awesome idea....now where do I go? I don't do churches. Grocery stores don't help. The committees I am on are all female. The associations I belong to treat me with indifference (a mix of fear and hate and wonder). So now where? The museum? The movies (can't meet anyone there). I will start a thread in a moment talking about moving away from being a "tranny". How does one lose that label? Never happens does it?


As Caden says in her following post to yours, the best way to stop being "the Tranny" is to go where no one knew you before.

I had to transition in the workplace so, although I was treated "as a woman" (whatever that means!) there was always the underlying fact that the majority of staff knew me before, and even those joining after my transition were able to find out (old file minutes, old computer notes etc).

However I made the decision to start an evening educational course where no-one knew me, and I've been on that course for five years now and I'm not "the Tranny", I'm Deb - we socialise as a group as well.

And now that I've retired I have started some voluntary work, where again, no-one knows my history.

So there are ways to get away from your past, you've just got to go out and look for them

[ariannavt]

LOL

In what world does a closet case have any advice to give a fully transitioned postie about life?

Only on the internet.

In some cases it takes someone looking at things with an outside perspective. It's hard to see that the earth is round when you're living on it, but it's pretty straight-forward when you see it from space. :)

[Zooey]

Outside perspectives can be valuable, from the right source, but I think opinions on living life as a woman coming from men (especially those who live in a small wooden box of their own making) are anything but valuable.

I know the fear Lori is talking about very well, and a few trans-specific issues aside it's something most women share to some extent. Men who dismiss it merely perpetuate it.

I second (seventh?) the advice to make friends with more women (cis or trans), but preferably those who largely exist outside "the community". It's not because the community is bad, but rather because I think you spent a lot of time adrift in it and you're dependent on that scene. Without it, you sound a bit shut down.

Don't live in just one community if you can help it. Diversify your friend portfolio, and you may experience losses but you'll never be broke. Don't go out with "friends" to deal with fear. Make friends you want to be spending time with, and who make you smile to the point that fear isn't on your radar.

[Eryn]

Good ideas are good regardless of their source. Attacking the source is a weak counter-argument.

Back to topic: Although by the standards of some I am unworthy because I'm not officially out at work (co-workers know, but I still go by my male name) I am also wrestling with the "second transition" (trans to woman) in the other venues of my life.

So, I live three lives. Male (sort of), trans (among those who know), and female everywhere else. My next step is abandoning the male vestige of my existence which will leave trans and female. I'll probably never shake being trans completely as I have a number of good friends who have stood by me and I'm not willing to sacrifice them for purity's sake. I'll just blend it all together as best I can.

Life is much easier if one accepts a certain level of imperfection.

[flatlander_48]

Anyway, I have sat at home and I find that my male friends cannot grasp why I won't go out on a weekend night alone. They don't "get it" because as men, they CAN just waltz into a bar and either be accepted or they can defend themselves if a confrontation occurs.

That has never been the case for me. I don't just go to any joint and presentation has nothing to do with it. I've never been that imposing physically and as I've had arthritis since childhood, I don't have the strength and dexterity that one would expect, on average. I would not go into places with a lot of pickups or motorcycles in the parking lot, even if their reputation was relatively benign. I also wouldn't go near a place that had even a hint of a Confederate flag. So sure, I could butch up to a degree, but it wouldn't be enough given the circumstances. So the things that I would do and the places I would go not dressed are not that much different from times when dressed.

However, in the best sense, Change represents Opportunity. It creates the possibility to retool things that you didn't like or were not working out like you thought. So the thing is, what might fit into those categories for you? Be bold. Remember this is a One Way, One Time trip. You don't get extra points for arriving at The Pearly Gates in Like New condition...

DeeAnn

[Brooklyn]

I'm confused. How does one stop being trans? I guess you can stop hanging with LGBT people, but you're still transgender the rest of your time here on planet Earth. And I agree with Zooey - if you haven't transitioned yet, then you're really just speculating about what it's like to be a woman. Look at the title of the thread, for goodness sakes. It's really dangerous out there for trans-women especially - no way I'd go out at night alone. Cis women don't even do that.

[Eryn]

Ashley, how can you know what it's like to be a woman if you are trans?

Answer: if one is perceived as a woman, one will be treated as such.

It doesn't matter if one is "fully transitioned" or not. The non-trans world doesn't care.

[Rianna Humble]

Eryn, you are just trying to muddy the waters regarding people's reactions to "advice" by someone who stands no chance of being
perceived as a woman because they don't venture out of their closet.

Lori is absolutely right that male friends, be they gay, straight or bi don't generally understand that a woman still can't go out to bars on her own in the vast majority of places. That's what this thread is about, not whether you are in part-time transition or not.

[Georgette_USA]

Again I am in a minority here.

When younger my partner and I would go to many clubs together, some LGBT mostly not. We moved to the Suburbs in 1983, and had NO contact with what little there was of a Trans community. We never thought of ourselves as Trans, just two aging women. Over time I got used to going many places by myself. Always vigilant of what type of clubs and such. Now I am alone and have re-joined the Trans community. I go with some friends to both LGBT and some not type clubs. I still go by myself sometimes to non LGBT clubs, when I want to be just treated as a single women. Love to just chat with the men and women, about anything and everything. Good time is just after people are done with work and relaxing before going home.

The biggest thing as others have said is to be careful with where you go. I don't go to what would be just a bar. Prefer places that have a bar and eating/dancing areas.

I know other single women that go places by oneself all the time. In the LGBT clubs the men and women see nothing weird for single women to be out.

[PretzelGirl]

No no no no! I am almost single. I am almost post-op. I do not give advice on dating or how to do anything related to being post-op because I do not have that experience. That's it. There is a variable here for Lori and that is being full time but having a past that you have to decide whether to divulge or not. if you haven't transitioned and been out dating, you only have speculation and not knowledge.



Ashley, how can you know what it's like to be a woman if you are trans?

Eryn, I AM a woman! You say you want to get away from being trans but you never will if you don't see this truth.



Answer: if one is perceived as a woman, one will be treated as such.

It doesn't matter if one is "fully transitioned" or not. The non-trans world doesn't care.

The non-trans world does care. Whether we have passing privilege or not is about not recognizing us as women. If a person is lauded for "Passing", that means they are able to be viewed as a "woman" and not trans creating a social ladder difference. If they don't pass, then they are trans and less than a woman in some eyes. It is something that needs to change because we are women no matter how we appear, but society needs an education here. Anyone who doesn't agree isn't watching women being accosted in the women's restrooms.

[Teresa]

I'm going to agree with Deborah , her comments about losing the tranny label, find new ground new interests, get accepted as the person you've become not the person you were. Some of the problem could be meeting old friends you know, in your mind that they half think of you as the person you were and you're anticipating that.
It doesn't matter what persuasion they are they will not think of you as the new person you thought you would be.

I'm going to give the example of my social group again, I have never met any of them before and I only know them dressed , I don't know where they are on the transition road, so the only way I can treat them is as equals.
You need situations where you start on equal terms to begin to lose the tranny label .

Sometimes I think we need to look beyond the segregation idea, there are ways to integrate we just have to find them.

[Lorileah]

points I want to address:

"You will always be trans..." While that may be a truism, it severely limits my life. You see, in many parts of the world, I would be considered "Not" a woman even though I have all the parts now (well except ovaries, they were add-ons and I don't really want to end up like the Danish Girl). No, honestly proclaiming that I am trans forever, while I would and will love to help the community, restricts a lot of social life.


"Leaving everyone behind and starting over" sounds like I have been banned or outcast. At 60 years old, you don't just start over. You don't have time. And even if I did, where? Things I do I won't change (I like drinking and music and academic stuff) so now I go to a bar, alone, even in a good area, I won't get much interaction. Curiosity maybe but I have tried this and while having an empty bar stool on either side of me is good for comfort, it isn't much fun. When someone does sit next to me they turn the back toward me.. Music...I love music but being alone at any concert pales to being with people. Here we have "meet ups" I have been to those and it is so sad to seethe average woman ignored while the 20 something woman gets three or four guys attention. They go home alone and always say the same thing "It was fun but I don't think I will be back"


Things seem worse now with the political/social climate. Whereas a few years I was ignored, now I am seen and glared at. Sort of like a gorilla in an exhibit where no one really KNOWS my intent.

But I am new to this. I am losing friends everyday because I no longer feel the need to play the trans. If and when I do go with them, I enjoy the company but I keep getting isolated as the TS (not male, not female not CD not DQ). I will get new friends I am sure because while 7 years ago I didn't think about my life situation (which had changed immensely) things sort of came together. They will or they won't. All I know is that I am now on the margin (I wasn't then I was an available man who played manly games like golf). I have my music, let's see where that goes.

[Starling]

I hope this bathroom s***storm blows away after the election. Previous wedge issues have rapidly dissipated, after they outlived their usefulness. Fingers crossed.

:) Lallie

[flatlander_48]

S:

I don't think so. The difference is that there are laws on the books. In Charlotte, for example, the only way they could go forward again would be if HB2 were removed or greatly changed. If HB2 is ruled unconstitutional, that would take of it, but who knows how long that will take.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

Where to go when alone? Coffee shops! There are lots of Starbucks in Denver. Why don't you pick one and just become a regular. Bring a book or a laptop. Hopefully, eventually you'll get to know the other regulars, if only to chat with while you're there. This is how I met my SO. :)

Also, didn't you used to sing Karaoke in a bar where you knew everyone? Do you still have friends who go there?

As to going to any place alone at our age (bar, coffee place, etc) and being ignored, welcome to the club. :p Middle aged and older women tend to become invisible. This is why we find a small group of friends our age to do things with ... most of my outings with my friends involve having a good ol' gabfest over lunch or dinner.

[GaleWarning]

Lori, I am a couple of years older than you. I came to the UK (the third country that I have called 'home') three years ago. Here, I have found a level of tolerance and acceptance of people as unique and valued individuals which is far higher than either of my previous 'home' countries.
Take a break and come visit. The academic life, music and bar cultures are all of an agreeably high standard. You will make friends who accept you simply as you are. You will feel at home.
Send me a pm, if interested.

[Lorileah]

Where to go when alone? Coffee shops! There are lots of Starbucks in Denver. Why don't you pick one and just become a regular Well, I don't like expensive coffee but thank you .
Bring a book or a laptop. Hopefully, eventually you'll get to know the other regulars, if only to chat with while you're there. If I am going to sit and read a book or be online, I can do that from home. Also, my experience is a person reading or working online basically says "don't bother me." But your point is well taken. I do appreciate the thought.


Also, didn't you used to sing Karaoke in a bar where you knew everyone? Do you still have friends who go there? Karaoke bars are either very crowded and really not gregarious or they are one or two nights a week (this is Denver's scene anyway, it may be different in different cities). The bar you refer to has karaoke one night a week. The bar I sang with the piano closed (it died a year before, no one buried it) and the piano bar I go to now has established acts who don't usually let people, no matter how good, sit in. Also it is still bar and other than being a lush and spending a lot of time there, I am still a fish out of water (I have been there alone twice now) and even though I try and talk to others at the bar, I get the cold shoulder. If it were closer to home I may go go often but I really get concerned even having two drinks over three hours driving home. I am too pretty to go to jail.

Your point of being invisible is so true. I am not a 24 year old gymnast with insatiable desires who will sleep with anyone I meet. Yeah...click off everything virtually every man over 50 wants (I never understood why a man would other than the obvious physical...which fades rapidly). You would think a partner (male or female) would want someone they could share similar experiences with. I remember Bon Jovi with long hair...now the 20 somethings know him as the guy with short hair singing love ballads. I have no clue about pop culture so dating someone significantly younger would be like sitting in a foreign film without subtitles.

Again Reine, I really do appreciate your suggestions and everyone else's comments. To update, I have rectified it in my mind. No I won't sit alone at a bar. Easy enough, but also I have moved on from "friends" who don't get that. I may get terribly bored after summer. But, honestly, I am happy with how I look and how I am now. I just have to re-learn what women have known or learned over their lives.

[Zooey]

Lori, you mentioned your male friends. Do you have many female friends (cis or trans)?

While I didn't really "lose" any of my male friends, despite my personality being more or less the same they really don't relate to me the same way they used to. My female friends have really become the bedrock of my life. In particular, my two besties are absolutely my sisters and I can honestly say I would not be in the place I am right now were it not for them. My actual sister is pretty great too. :)

Have you considered finding some groups of likeminded women with similar interests on e.g. Meetup.com? Crafting, music, jogging, drinking, whatever - odds are there is a group of women doing it there.

[Lorileah]

Zooey, I think I am stuck between two worlds. I have many friends in the LGBT community. And they are great but without getting into a huge "to do" here, they do point toward being obviously on the trans spectrum. I have never been a big fan of drag unless it is done very well. In general the amateur bar shows leave a lot to be desired... My TS friends haven't invited me back into the fold yet (guess that indicates that they place me in the CD/DQ fold still because I don't discriminate within the community, anyone can be my friend). As far as Meetup.com (I am on the list for jazz and music) my observance is that it ends up with people leaving the same way they came. If they came in as a group or a pair...they leave that way and singles are shunned (unless you are very attractive...guess I am not I have talked to many singles...mostly women in these groups but they aren't looking for someone like me. They want Brad Pitt). I have tried to join the groups but there is tension. I will Google drinking groups. :) (PS I have met people in your circle and I agree they are great fun to be with and so open...here in Denver we must have different rules)

My entertainer friends, male and female, are great but they aren't looking for socialization. They are looking to keep or get gigs. That's my circle right now. Two weeks ago the local VFW told me I could come there anytime I wished, so that's an opening. But again it needs to be a group. Sitting at a bar alone even with cheap booze isn't what I am looking for.

The point though of the thread is that mindsets, male vs female: men vs women, in a social setting are different. Guys may be a little picky about where they go alone. Women have to be a LOT picky. A man alone at a bar is a man at a bar. Even if he cheers the opponent team, the worst he has to fear is angry looks usually. A woman at a bar alone (or restaurant but to a less extent but then again who socializes at restaurants?) garners more suspicions about her agenda. I was in a home improvement store staring at the display for 20 minutes (I needed a 3/4" clamp) and three male employees walked past me. Now three years ago every one of them would have noticed and asked if I needed help (I found the space they were supposed to be finally and they were out). Yes I have become invisible. Maybe it was what I was wearing, a skirt and flats because I had had a business meeting so they didn't think I was serious about fixing the sprinkler system. :idontknow:

[Georgette_USA]

Lori

I have NO male friends as such. Most of my friends are in the LGBT population. I can be very verbal and give not just empathy/sympathy to people.

I have given some advice/ideas earlier. I can understand your troubles being in the 60+ age, as at 63 when partner died I felt very alone, now 65. We had left the LGBT community many years prior. After 38 years together, it is hard to get back out there.
I searched out local TG support groups, found three and have been able to chat with many and had some socialization. I then found a large meetup group that is a mix of women/TG-TS/CD, some of the TG-TS are also in those TG support groups. This is strictly a social group.

We go to mostly some LGBT clubs, but also some that are not. I have gone to places by myself for many years, partner was not into going out much. I guess I don't give much thought to going to clubs by myself. Will go to non LGBT clubs and try and start chatting with male or female. Not really into Drag, but some friends like to go, so I do also. Quite a few also do Karaoke and have started to do that also. Some clubs are also big dance clubs.

My point being. Unless you want to be alone, you will need to do some things that you may not be interested in. For anyone who has transitioned, we learn to do a lot of things and go places that were not in our earlier activities. I will chat with many women wherever I am, movies/groceries/clothes shopping/nail salon.

As for the being invisible at stores and such, you need to be proactive. I had to be an Alpha female at work, and will do the same when out shopping. You let 3 employees walk by and didn't stop one of them. That is as bad as men that won't get directions when driving because they are MEN. I am almost always in a dress so don't use what you wear as an excuse.

I have many Male and Female friends at the LGBT clubs, and will try and start conversations with both male and female patrons. I even hooked up with one male that had NO problems with my background and he was at least 10-15 years younger. So not all men in LGBT clubs are looking for a Pre TG/TS, but may actually want a woman. Still working on finding a Lesbian who wants to be more than just a friend.

To use an over used statement "Put on Your Big Girl Panties" and get out there. Or stay home and cry yourself to sleep at night like I did for 6 months or so.

[ReineD]

Yes I have become invisible. Maybe it was what I was wearing, a skirt and flats because I had had a business meeting so they didn't think I was serious about fixing the sprinkler system. :idontknow:

I've become invisible during the last few years, but this is because of my age. It doesn't matter what I wear. I simply don't look like I'm in my 30s or 40s anymore. And by invisible, I specifically mean that men don't approach to flirt with me the way they did before. They're all flirting with the younger gals! lol. But, people in general are still nice to me and I do interact with lots of people.

I've always had to chase staff down to get answers in home improvement stores though, but I think this is simply the nature of stores like Lowes and Home Depot.