CDs Only - Why are we a hierarchy?

[Zooey]

This idea that the trans women on this forum are in some way "superior", or that we THINK we're "superior", to the CD members of the forum has come up a lot in the last week or two.

I've talked to a LOT of the regulars in the TS forum about this, and none of us feel particularly "superior" to you, with one possible exception - the difference in perspective from the folks who are later in transition that comes from being well and truly OUT, and in no way closeted. Not "my wife knows", and not "I like to go out two towns over" - OUT. Some CDs here may meet that bar, and I have no reason to believe that those folks wouldn't share at least some of our perspective on that matter. Aside from that, we're just really different - not better.

So, this question is for the CDs only. Why do you perceive this hierarchy between us? Is it exclusively about things we say to you, or the way we say them? I don't think so - I think there's a lot more to it than that - but I want to hear your opinions. Please, NO TS OR GG responses. CD only.

I'm not going to respond here unless it becomes necessary to push the thread forward. Thank you in advance for your contributions.

Editing to clarify

I got a great question via PM about the usage of the word "out", because many trans women and trans men end up wanting to be "stealth". I think there is value in the word "out" for those who are are more fluid/present inconsistently (like CDs), but for the purposes of this discussion what I mean is, "Living your life authentically as all of yourself all the time and everywhere; no hiding who you are".

[suzanne]

There is definitely a sense of "more" or "less" with the people in this forum, but not better vs worse. If you are, as you say, trans, you definitely have a stronger feminine side than I do, as I am "just" a crossdresser. That makes you and your life experiences different from, not superior to, mine. I've never gotten from anyone here the sense that they felt superior. And given how we are still marginalized to some extent, we should have nothing but empathy for each other's situation.

[heatherdress]

Zooey - You have already answered you own question - your exception that you "feel" superior admits that you do, in fact, feel superior and you provide the reason you feel as you do. But regardless of the reasons transsexuals feel superior, whether it is because crossdressers prefer to dress in private and remain secret, or because crossdressers are part-timers, or because crossdressers don't even know why they crossdress - it really doesn't matter. You do feel superior, as you personally stated, and it comes out in this forum over and over.

You are a woman, not a crossdresser, and you don't understand crossdressing. I think that society has, in general, fortunately turned the corner and demonstrates understanding and acceptance of transsexuals. But not so of crossdressers. People can understand gay/lesbian/bisexual gender preference and are beginning to understand transsexualism. But who can understand crossdressing? Not even crossdressers can understand why we crossdress - but we do crossdress. And there is a wide range of crossdressing behavior which fulfills crossdressers or makes them feel good. Some underdress, some dress in private, some dress every day, some a few times a year, some dress with their spouses blessing, some are afraid to tell anyone, some can't dress because of family, some feel good about their dressing, some feel it is morally wrong and some don't care what anyone else cares. But there is not much commonality and the only thing crossdressers seem to want is acceptance to some degree. And even if they had acceptance, many would still prefer secrecy because of occupations or family or friends.

So when crossdressers like myself read comments from transsexuals on this site claiming that we are afraid to come out to others (many crossdressers will always maintain their privacy), or that we are in denial of our true sexuality (most crossdressers are sure of their sexual identity), or that we diminish women (because we are not women but want to appear feminine), or that we are part-time transgenders (which is primarily true), or that we have to support all transgender initiatives (even thought there are many which almost provide negative impacts upon crossdressers) - we feel transsexual as you have stated are better than us or superior than us.

The feelings that I expressed are mine only, and I do not believe that most transsexuals even convey a sense of superiority - but several on this forum do and it drives a wedge between us. Remember, crossdressers want acceptance and understanding, even on a website for crossdressers where differences of opinion are welcome.

[Taylor186]

For me it is not a hierarchy but a scale. On one side you have CDs and on the other side you have post-op TSs and of course, there are many variations in between. No one is superior to another, just shades of grey different.

[AllisonS]

Is your question only for CDs that think what you say they think? If so... let there be crickets!! Everyone is unique. What did the rainbow mean? Was purple the best?

[Dana44]

I don't think that anyone is Superior to anyone else. I do see when anyone from this thread posts in the TS side that they generally get lambasted. But sometimes deserve it as some things don't relate. What we see in our threads are your comments and we do like them as we highly respect you and others. I have seen you take apart two transsexuals because they are and just are. But they did it offsite and came in or a long time ago. Nobody on this side ever questions what somebody says as though they are wrong. I see a lot of hurt on that side as you all do go through more than we do. So, yes we listen to you because we respect you. We would like to have the same from you. I know that you do not understand me. But like i said it took me most of my life to understand me and hooty, my hormones are female in a male body. Yeah you get that from HRT but I get it naturally. I posted in a thread that my basic mode is female and I was a socially conditioned male. There is not much difference between me and you at all but you do not understand me and gender fluid. It just is. I do live my life authentically but i don''t stuff it in anyone's face. I would say if we sat down and had a beer together we would be friends.

[Jenniferathome]

Zooey, I am me all the time. I live my life authentically. Occasionally, I cross dress. That's just "me." My wife knows and that's enough. As a part timer, my cross dressing never affects friends or family, so being out beyond my wife is not necessary for me.

Are we different, cross dressers and trans women? YES! I don't identify as a woman. I've been reading the trans forum a bit and I can see the juxtaposition between the trans women who want to be accepted as women and we cross dressers who want to be comfortable while out. Some cross dressers think they should be or actually are accepted as women because they dress as one. I don't see a hierarchy just a genuine difference.

[Crissy Kay]

I kind of get the feeling that on this forum, that the TS members are "better" then the "ordinary" cross dressers. Maybe its me, or just the vibe I get.

[Tracii G]

I noticed years ago on here if I ventured into the TS forum it was very apparent I was not welcomed but anywhere else I was fine.
That was the first time I noticed what seemed to be elitism coming from the TS side of the forum.
These days I just look at TS members and think well they are different in a lot of ways and not so different in others.
From now on I will just look at them as in their "zone" and thats just fine.
I am coming to the point of thinking we all need to just be ourselves and get along because we all need each other in these times where trans issues are coming to the fore front in the news.

[carhill2mn]

This forum is made up of a wide variety of people. Thus, there will be real or perceived feelings of superiority or inferiority. One could make a strong case that those who go out in public en femme feel superior to those that do not. The same can be said for those who have told their SO vs. those who have not. Do those who identify as transgender and have had SRS feel superior to those who have not had surgery but are on HRT? Or, do some people perceive a sense of superiority when no such intent was intended? Choices of words or phrases can make a big difference.

Is it possible that having a forum named "crossdressers.com" that has members who have transitioned or are intending to transition might play a part in people taking things the wrong way?

[Devi SM]

I really love this website because if the variety of viewpoints, experiences and opinios.
In the variety is the richness.
But this thread has being exceptional.
Some people think that persons in the LGBT group lack of some intelligence, education or are illiterate but in this thread I've read some really good, smart, literate opinions.
Now my opinion:
I really admire when people gets out of the closet and can go for life and the streets free and dress whatever they want, especially talking about all this trasgender way (sorry for my limited English but we have a said in my country, to good understander, few words are enough ).
I feel really happy and satisfied to had told my wife my truth about my crossdressing, but I would like to tell to anybody, co-workers, family and friends about it because for me is more than a hobby, it's me, but unfortunately, this style of life is related with sexuality, and sexuality still being a topic that for too much people is dirt a taboo, something that cannot be talk openly, so for that reason we, I think this represent to a many here, keep partially or totally in the closet because of the consequences for the loved ones but if we could live far from anybody could leave the closet to start a new life.
So.for me transsexuals women are not superior, just another color on the rainbow but they go in front of me in the journey of achieve everybodys acceptance without prejudices. ..

[Rhonda Jean]

Oh, I feel it! In fact, I read much of it as a literal disdain for crossdressers. I probably more or less fall into the category of "two towns over". Not always. There have been periods in my life where I ventured out literally in my back door, but I'd rather not now. I've ventured over to the TS forum and had my hand slapped. I think there's a HUGE feeling of superiority over there. Maybe it's just a huge feeling of superiority to me.

I'm 58 years old. I've been "exhibiting" since I was a child. I've lived through periods of acceptance and non acceptance and various degrees of openness. It has cost me a 30 year marriage and most of my friends. Yet, I never made the declaration (or the admission) that I'm a woman. I never dressed at work, I never went on hormones, never told my doctor or my boss. I stayed sufficiently closeted to protect my livelihood.

I've looked back at earlier posts of some who are now in the upper reaches of the hierarchy. In some cases, it wasn't long ago that they were mere crossdressers. Who's to say what the real difference is, in some cases. I've read the "it was life or death" posts. Maybe in their particular situations it was. Maybe if they were in my situation they would have been a "two towns over" girl. Maybe it's me, and many others just like me that just can't transition or be any more out than we are as a matter of survival. There is never any credence given to that. Everybody thinks their particular brand of "suffering" was greater than anybody else's.

As cd's I think we freely recognize "degrees of" and fluidity. The TS side comes across as very binary. More so than women in general.

Having said all this, there are biases throughout this board, as there are everywhere in life. The gay ones, the straight ones, the passable, the not passable, etc.. We all find our own little clique. There seem to be enough cliques to go around. I certainly carry my share of biases. I guess everybody like to find some way of feeling superior whether it's their bank account or their bra size, or how out they are.

[Jenniferathome]

I noticed years ago on here if I ventured into the TS forum it was very apparent I was not welcomed but anywhere else I was fine..

I have a little different feeling here. A while back, Jennifer GWN, and I had dinner together and participation on the forum came up as a topic for discussion. She asked if I ever read/commented on the trans forum and my response was no, what comment could I make? I have no reference point from which to offer an opinion (and I always have opinions) where I thought it would be valued. So to Tracii's point, would any comment I make be valued?

[Robin414]

I admit when I first joined the forum I was a 'kitten on cat nip' and didn't have a freaking clue what 'TG' really is...I get it now!! (and thank you for your patience with me TG women!!)

To the point, I understand now what it means to transition full time and I get it ( it scares the living shit out of me) knowing you've done it imparts insane respect!

I don't know if I could do it (or if I need to do it) but whatever 'gender' I land on on before the 'big ending', you'll always have my respect, admiration, and your '6 o'clock'!!

[Shayna]

I don't know that there's a feeling of superiority, but I do think there might be a few who are TS think that CDs are just fooling themselves. That goes the other way as well, where CDs think they are more similar to TG than they are. The reality is the spectrum of those on this board is very wide. Most who are CDs will never experience what it is for a person who is truly TS, while on the other side most TS people have experienced what it is to cross dress.

While I don't necessarily get the feeling of superiority from most TS posters, there does seem to be a lot of them making comments on the crossdresseing section of the forum, which doesn't seem to be true the times I've read the TS section. Either way, I respect you all. We all have our own struggles and personal situations to deal with.

[IamWren]

The feelings that I expressed are mine only.
Sort of... because I pretty much agree with every single thing Heather said. She said way better than I what I was thinking. I will add this analogy though.

When I was a kid I had friends who were in auto shop and when we turned 16 we all (four or five of us) took our money we'd saved for a couple of years of working and bought muscle cars. One bought an SS Camaro, another a '68 Chevelle 242 another a Mustang with a 289 V-8

Me, I bought a VW Bug that i promptly beefed up to a 1776cc with dual carbs. She was quick of the line and had some torque in that little engine but I was always made to feel like my little bug wasn't a "real" muscle car. It didn't really fit the mold. The others were better.

That's the vibe I get from the TS women and because I drive a bug, I never venture into the TS section of the forum.

[Gillian Gigs]

This is hilarious, this site is called Crossdressers.com, and I have read most of the material since I have been on this site. The one comment that has struck me regarding superiority was this, " CDers are TS, they just don't know it yet". I hope this is accurate, but this is my memory on this one. Well I just want to be loved and accepted, and I do my best to love and accept others. I am just a guy who started out with a fetish and it has morfed into more CDing than fetish as I got older. I have no desire to be more than that, a guy who CD's. I have empathy for all who struggle whether it is with alcohol, drugs, or their sexuality. I personally know someone who has transitioned and a couple of others who struggle with which way to go. I have no arrogance, no superiority, within me, just love and acceptance.
If I choose to keep my habits to myself, it is because I have assessed my situation and determined that it is better for me if I don't "out" myself. Every one has to determine what is best for them, and we should love them and accept them for who and where they are!

[Alice Torn]

I know that i, as senior citizen, never having had a SO or wife, sometimes feel inferior, or left out, as the vast majority can talk on here about SO's and wives, but it is not just here, but, in church, or anywhere, being, "that loner." It has been a hard burden to bear, never having a mate, and my father about to die now.

[Kelly Whelan]

From my past experience in the TVCD scene in the UK, there was a natural pecking order based on convincibility or all round sexual attractiveness. This is often linked to age, but you naturally gravitated to others in your league. Those in various stages of transition or full time commitment tended to exist on higher and less accessible tiers. I didn't meet many because they often avoided the TVCD nights. Perhaps it felt like a step down for them.

One thing Zoey mentioned in one of the many threads she is probably referencing is that CDs can switch off and be male and blend as men without a hassle, while those who are TS don't often have that luxury. For that reason, it garners respect but it serves as a pedestal that some choose to stand on while others do not.

[bridget thronton]

I like to think that we are community of people supporting each other - never thought much about who is on top.

[Robin414]

I will add this analogy though.

When I was a kid I had friends who were in auto shop and when we turned 16 we all (four or five of us) took our money we'd saved for a couple of years of working and bought muscle cars. One bought an SS Camaro, another a '68 Chevelle 242 another a Mustang with a 289 V-8

Me, I bought a VW Bug that i promptly beefed up to a 1776cc with dual carbs..

OK, what Sue said, excellent analogy! 😊

[Jenniferathome]

... Most who are CDs will never experience what it is for a person who is truly TS, while on the other side most TS people have experienced what it is to cross dress...

Shayna, I think this is a huge misperception. It's perfectly understandable but the fact that a trans person may have cross dressed does not make them a cross dresser. They were trans at that time too. Arbon, Becky, and others have cited that they dressed to try and align their trans nature with some visual but it didn't help or complete anything for them. Those that are trans have no more insight into cross dressing than I have into being trans.

[heatherdress]

Zooey - There seems to be different basic emotions which drive responses from those who identify as crossdressers and those who are transsexual on this site.

The overwhelming emotions that crossdressers express are regret, guilt and shame - primarily for hiding their crossdressing behavior or feeling that it wrong or bad to do. Transsexual emotions are frustration, anger and sometimes hate. I think these are quite understandable feelings related to the relatively more difficult challenges transsexuals face and the hurt they have endured. But on this site, those feelings seem to be often vented and directed on our crossdressing members resulting in defensive responses. There are a few whose anger is apparent in every response, and it drives discussions in divisive directions. I frequently am left feeling very distant by remarks which are usually strong and negative.

There is, however, commonality, which we seem to overlook. In spite of our very apparent differences, we all have feelings of frustration, loneliness, rejection, worry and hurt. Too bad we can't always remember our commonality and maybe we would feel closer. This should be a place to go to for enjoyment and support, not controversy.

[Lori Kurtz]

My feeling about this site is that there is a predominant value of acceptance. I have seen some exceptions to that--some judgmental attitudes and such--but I generally don't pay much attention to that negativity. In answering the original question, I won't try to evaluate anyone else's feelings or opinions. I'll only speak for myself.

I'm a CD. I don't identify as a woman; during my years of active dressing, it was just a recreational activity that I did for sexual pleasure.

Although that was a very deep-seated and powerful urge for me, and still is the stuff of vivid fantasies, and although my fascination with crossdressing created some psychological and relationship problems for me, I feel that my struggles are nothing compared to the struggles of a transsexual.

We all deserve respect as human beings, but I think some of us have more serious things to deal with than others. So yes, I do feel in myself a kind of hierarchy in my attitudes about some of the "girls" here. I feel that a transsexual, because of the fundamental body/identity mismatch, is much more deserving of support and sympathy than someone like me.

[JenniferMBlack]

I think the sense of superiority comes from your definition of out. Of you don't dress female all the time then your hideing. I may not roll into work wearing a skirt and yell here I am but not because I am so much hideing as there is no reason for me to do so, no benefit and all risk.

If TS are a hierarchy it is because they are full time and they must go through the struggles in every aspect of their life. Becausw of that I think as crossdressers we look up to them for courage and insperatiin, not so much because they are better but because they are living it.

[Adriana Moretti]

I have friends on both sides of the spectrum, some CD's and some Full Time Trans...I agree that there is a hierarchy...but there are alot of differences between the two groups...a simple example would be a CD is still trying to get up the courage to get out the house, while a trans girl is trying to get the marker on there drivers licesnse changed. 2 totally different groups, with 2 totally different sets of issues. One of my good Trans friends recently was commenting that she is getting guilty of being "Trannier Than Thou" ...she said she never thought she would get like that but she cant stand going to CD/TG events anymore cause of what she see's. And she said that to ME..and I still consider myself a CD ( I think ) ...but i see what she goes through, been there with her for surgery, her marker change, and i get it. When your biggest issue is getting out of the house, or getting over the fear of buying makeup and clothes, how can you relate ? I dont see it as a pecking order, but rather an advancement, once you graduate from junior high, you go to high school, then a university, then maybe grad school....some never want to leave junior high, and thats ok too....

[Teresa]

Zooey,
Disregarding the superior question for a moment and considering differences, I often see the comment , " Just a CDer !" When you think about there's no such thing, we all have a different set of circumstances why we do it, if we can understand that much, maybe even an hierarchy to what we've achieved between us, the wanting more factor. For a TS it's simpler they have one goal to bring mind and body into alignment , most CDers don't feel that and most don't understand but aren't ignorant to the life changing decisions TSs must make. The problem comes when TSs know what sacrifices they must make, hopefully in the search for happiness and contentment they have never truly felt, but the road is not always that smooth and the final outcome doesn't match up to their expectations.

Please forgive me but this is only my personal view but when I look at what I would personally lose I describe it as jumping into a black hole, losing everything for no guarantees of the life you expect to be living, and possibly no close partner to share it with.
Sometimes I see evidence of that not only on the forum but reported in the media . How many would like to turn the clock back and try a different lifestyle ? So what I see sometimes in the TS section is resentment of CDers, they can still mix and match and still have reasonably happy lives. I truly believe I'm very close to TS , saying there's a big difference between us isn't quite true, it's one tiny link in the chain that keeps me on the male side, I'm sure many Cders feel like that .

The point about being out, and the travelling two cities comment . When you don't fully understand why you CD and yet for some inexplicable reason you need to go out dressed then of course you're going to travel out of your area you aren't going to jeopardise all you've built up for reasons you can't fully explain .

Do I feel you're superior ? No the impression given is that it's an elitist group and the view out at CDers is slightly condescending . I read a comment recently from that section that we're men playing at being women.

There are understandable differences but as I commented recently, at my social group we don't wear labels saying if we're CD or TS we mutually accept and respect one another, I spent some time at the last meeting talking to a TS, she's reached the stage of having to go dressed full time and we discussed family and work situation in that context. Others have fully transitioned and some are on HRT , but there's no demarcation between us we just have an enjoyable evening.

[sometimes_miss]

I've only experienced someone behaving as if they were superior to me (TS, or gay, as opposed to 'just a crossdresser') because they just assumed that I was still confused, and didn't really know what I was yet. And I can see why they might feel that way; because they may have gone through the initial feelings of am I male, am I female, am I gay, or what? Lots of guys here do seem to be at that point, and, from the outside looking in, DO appear to be stuck in limbo. How often to you read about a self described CD mention 'I'm attracted to men, but ONLY when I'm dressing/behaving as a girl; at all other times I'm really completely heterosexual'. Which of course is baloney, and any TS or gay person has been there; it's just a way of fooling only yourself, while pretty much everyone else knows exactly what it means. The superiority thing I think comes from the feeling of: 'I know who and what I am. YOU either don't, don't want to accept it, refuse to accept it, or are afraid to accept it'. And I've gotten this type of attitude from a few GG's, TS's and Gays, until I went through the whole nine yards explaining everything I've learned so far, and why I came to the conclusions that I have. And even then, of course, there are some who still believe that I'm just still in denial. What's interesting? Each sort of implied that I belonged in their group (other than the GG's, who have mostly told me they think I'm TS, but I wonder if that's because most of them have never met me in person). It makes me wonder if what I said might have reminded them of something that they felt earlier in their life. Damn, that's something I should have asked.

[Lorileah]

Moderator note :facepalm: why do I hear Casey Jones playing in the background? This thread seems intent on goading people. It assumes that Crossdressers in general have a hierarchy. Walk a fine line people

[Tina_gm]

I would imagine it is felt on both sides??? There are people who will think they are right, others are wrong, do it my way and if you do not, you are inferior. That is a human failure. It happens everywhere, all genders, you name it. In the last couple of years really, trans I think has taken on a less encompassing meaning. When I 1st joined this site, transgender was an umbrella term. And it was described to me as such from a very reputable gender counselor. Transgender covered any gender variance. So, CDers were very much considered transgender. Now, not as much.

I don't know it if is the increased media attention, and how they are linking the word transgender toward those who are TS. If so, and that is how the term will change, fine. We are in a little spot in time, quite a bit more awareness, a little bit more acceptance, and also because of the 1st two, more hate spewed as well.

Where am I going with this you ask? (please get to it already lol) That fine line, the I am trans, I am just a CDer, I believe is causing us to now think of ourselves in more of a black and white I am, you are not type of mindset.

So where before, I think it was believed, at least among CDers, but I do think overall, that TS was the progression of gender variance, of being transgender and realizing it is not a thing, or a part, but of all of who they are. Now, it is you are or you are not trans, and CDing seems to have zilch to do with it. TS members have often stated they are in an entirely different category than CDers, as if they were as different from CDers as to cis gender. I personally do not believe that to be true, but there is a difference in how people end up living their lives.

TS women on here have been getting very upset recently, and I do see why. And, CDers who are ??questioning?? things, not quite sure about where they actually fall in the whole gender variant trans thing, are told basically, if you do not know you are TS, then you are not TS. And it doesn't ever progress to being TS, you either are or you are not. Many CD members however do remember current TS members who once themselves were proud members of the "I am just CDer" club. I can see why there may be some hard feelings there as well.

I believe personally that we all do share ONE THING in common, and that is gender variance. From there it branches off in all kinds of different directions. I am not always in 100% agreement with any side. I am however in at least partial agreement with every side 100% of the time. I can only hope we spend more time working with that which we can see as our similarities and work to help each other in what is often a very hostile environment. Lately, that little dividing line created of who is trans and who isn't seems to be getting the better of many of us.

[Mayo]

First, I agree with others posting here that the various groups are (broadly speaking) on a spectrum of non-binary expressions and so, in that sense, none is 'superior' to another in the sense that red is not 'superior' to blue. However, there are qualitative differences between red and blue. Others have noted that the privileges, life experiences and struggles of TSs are different than CDs, even while they share some commonalities. TSs have experiences and knowledge that many CDs don't, so it's inappropriate for the latter to pontificate on issues related to the former, just as it's inappropriate for white people to speak on behalf of people of colour or straights to speak on behalf of LGB folks. And while some CDs may eventually transition, until they start seriously considering it and educating themselves about TS issues, some of them can say some pretty ignorant things, and there it is appropriate for TSs to educate them and, if necessary, take them to task.

[Lacey New]

I am here as a member of this site because I am a cross dresser. I am in the closet not really out to anyone. But I enjoy and sometimes to a degree envy those members here who are out more especially to their SO. I have learned a lot about shopping, relationships and the wide variation of gender identity and sexual orientation of the members here. There has been a lot,of,discussion about labels. I for one, don't really care. I see no hierarchy. I do not feel as if my views or my form or fashion of cross dressing is marginalized. In fact, there appear to be a lot of hetero male non-transitioning members just like me. So I see myself as simply occupying a data point on the continuum. My data point may not be in the same place as yours, but we are all somewhere on the same line. Enjoy your dot point and I'll enjoy mine.

[Tabitha_Sinn]

Amen Lacey!

[Vickie_CDTV]

Being men are naturally competitive, some who dress might seem transitioning, HRT etc. a greater accomplishment than where are at, and want to see if they can be as accomplished as being a woman as others.

Yes, that sounds ludicrous, and objectively it is, but I have known a few folks over the years who had just started dressing, going out... and then went all out to become more and more passable, consequences be damned. Go figure.

[Mykaa]

I find it real hard to "want to participate" in this. I accepted myself when I joined and I thought if I can do that there is no reason I cant accept anyone else, this is only a hierarchy if you make it 1. I know Im a color in the spectrum somewhere, what color? I dont know, does it matter? Is it really necessary to "grade me by my likes/dislikes or how or why I do this, or what I talk about? The thing is Im here, I talk, I try to help others, I may not understand why you did what you did,or do, but I dont judge you for it.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Hi and thanks for your question Zooey.

It's not your imagination, I've felt it too, and other members I've been in touch with also feel it.

It feels like the difference between juniors and seniors. It feels like there's a certain sense of exclusivity among parts of the TS membership, kind of a moral high ground. When I go there (I am a CD only) I comment far less and am far more guarded in what I say, despite my deep interest in the section. Being slapped down a couple of times makes you cautious.

Don't get me wrong- my remarks only apply to some of the members- others have been totally cool.

FWIW a few of the harder-core CD members can be similarly judgemental - it's just folks.


Being men are naturally competitive...

Oh and like women totally aren't.

[Laura912]

Zooey, the hornets buzzing out of this nest you have kicked are exactly what one could have predicted based on your question. So many different people giving so many different responses based on each individual's perspective. Many answers sound similar but still have nuances of difference. The illusion that some feel superior may have derived from the comments made by some in the TS forum when trying to teach others new to that section, or even some of the old timers there, about the issues with which the TS people deal. Are humans a hierarchal species by nature? Some would answer, we are all equal but just slightly more equal than others. Having taken care of people for nearly 45 years, these varied responses are not at all surprising. The issue is compounded by the fact that it has to be done in writing. If everyone sat down together and talked,(what a hoot that would be!) we would most likely find more kinship that differences. :hugs:

[Teresa]

Laura,
Exactly what I've found from my social group at times it is a hoot !

[Sallee]

I don't think there really is a hierarchy that the hierarchy is some thing we as people introduce to ourselves. I know when I first started going to support groups there tended to be a hierarchy between the full time, part time TS's who were working toward transition. I even got the comment from several,,of "I don't understand you" or "whats up with you" or something to that effect. I am a part time CD I am no different from the full time TSs or transitioners. I agree that the full times didn't understand me but I don't understand me Why would a normal man want to dress and pass as a woman some tof the time? I wish I knew but it is fun and I enjoy it and
The hierarchy is something that is in our own minds and that is pretty much it. Its like the clicks in school.

[ashley_addams76]

I don't think of it as better, but think of it sort of like autism. The spectrum is so wide and varying and they all face a varying degree of challenges. Some are high functioning and others have more difficult challenges.

[Sarah Doepner]

I don't see the hierarchy but I do see many different sets of interests here. I'd like to use the Transgender Umbrella example if I may. Broadly defined we all fit under that umbrella but depending on our personal goals, limitations and assets, we occupy different spokes of that umbrella at varying distances from the hub. If I start offering input on the life of a person of color, with little income who is doing a medical transition and intends to maintain a relationship with their same sex partner, I'd better be very careful because I'm well out of my wheelhouse. It's better if I ask questions ane read a lot before I jump in on conversations where I really don't have any expertise.

I wonder if that's what we are feeling here at times. It's easy to assume we can have valid input on any post in this forum, but the diversity is so extreme that negative responses (or just being ignored) can be much more common than we would expect. I have had conversations with women well into their transition and they have covered a lot of ground through that process. They still have their eyes on their goal and are working hard to attain it. Time spent joining in the conversation about those who are justifiably pleased with their progress in making that first mid-night walk takes them away from the conversation about getting gender markers changed or dealing with transitioning in the work place or understanding more about the hormone balances they are experiencing. It doesn't mean they won't do it or won't offer ideas or suggestions, but when they do, it may come off sounding like they are not just beyond those issues but above them as well. So is it semantics and word choice? Maybe. Is it disinterest? Possibly. Are they looking down on us or just looking from a distance?

It's all possible, but I'd be most likely to believe it's not a feeling of superiority but one of distance that is being seen.

[Zooey]

I'm still not planning to comment directly on any of things I've read here, although it's been very interesting to read. That said, I wanted to highlight this statement in particular. Sarah is not the only person in this thread to have said something similar, but this is the briefest, most direct version of it I've seen in this thread, and I think it sums up the way most of the trans women regulars here feel.


It's all possible, but I'd be most likely to believe it's not a feeling of superiority but one of distance that is being seen.

I have some followup questions, based on what I've read here.

Many of you have said that your primary reason for e.g. wanting to come into the TS forum is to learn about our experiences. While there are a lot of things we DO post in the public TS forum, there are a lot of personal struggles that are discussed in private. So here are my questions...

1) Do you feel you would benefit from having more of those struggles discussed in an area that is publicly viewable?

2) Would you feel the same way if some of our discussions were about struggles to understand you, or difficulties (both intellectual and practical) that some people feel CDs and gender-fluid people can cause for us in certain cases? Some of these discussions could sound fairly critical.

3) Do you think that, if you read something covered by #2, you could refrain from fighting us on it?

Speaking for myself, I would be more than willing to start sharing some of my personal experiences and opinions on things in much more direct ways. Believe it or not, I don't actually do it very often here - I debate much more often than I share. I respect that it is a moderation challenge, especially when people get angry/hurt/etc., and there have been casualties associated with this type of discussion already.

So, I guess what I'm interested to know is... How much do you really want to know?

[Mayo]

1) Do you feel you would benefit from having more of those struggles discussed in an area that is publicly viewable?
As much as I like to pretend that reason should triumph over emotion, I know that's BS. Humans find it easier to ignore unpleasant truths if they can reduce them to numbers or distance themselves from them in other ways (e.g. droughts, famines and wars in far-away countries). It's more difficult to maintain prejudice toward a group of people if you know and interact with them closely and regularly, and one important task facing the T in LGBT is ultimately to connect with the straights and demonstrate to them that they are just regular people.* It sounds a bit like circular logic, but the general public won't see trans people as human until they are finally able to see them as human, if that makes any sense. For this reason, reading the stories of individuals can help to 'humanize' them and make the issues they face more accessible. Those of us here who are not members of one subgroup can therefore benefit by learning about those who may be members of another.**

So that's a yes from me.

At the same time, members who don't want to discuss their personal struggles or issues in a forum with wider access should still have a place where they can feel safe to do so. Perhaps this might require some duplication of topics, I don't know.


2) Would you feel the same way if some of our discussions were about struggles to understand you, or difficulties (both intellectual and practical) that some people feel CDs and gender-fluid people can cause for us in certain cases? Some of these discussions could sound fairly critical.
As I implied (if not outright stated) above, different people on these forums have different experiences, issues and concerns. That some members are openly discussing the difficulties others are having communicating with each other is proof enough of that. I think we need to understand that we do have our differences and that a) not everybody is facing the same trials, b) what works for one subgroup might not work for another, and c) if you are a member of one subgroup, that doesn't necessarily give you understanding of, or entitlement to discuss, the issues facing another. If I'm going into a group discussion by women of colour or Indigenous people, for example, I have to know how to check my privilege, shut up and listen - that way I can hear what's being said and learn from it without giving the appearance of mansplaining/whitesplaining or feeling entitled to offer my uninformed opinion where it's neither needed nor wanted.


3) Do you think that, if you read something covered by #2, you could refrain from fighting us on it?
I like to think so. Sometimes being told you've said something stupid or offensive is painful, and one tends to jump to one's own defence. Part of listening is to hear what's being said and why, and not to take offence in turn and react blindly to it.



* I say this without making any claims about whose 'responsibility' it is to do so, or how it should be accomplished. Frankly, the straights should be making the effort themselves, but that's unfortunately not usually how it works out. I'm aware that gays used this tactic to gain acceptability, often at the cost of throwing trans people under the bus, but there's no reason it can't also work for trans people now.

** This is a two-way street, of course, but the dominant narrative on this site is that of the straight white male cross-dresser, and as the dominant group their story tends to be more familiar than that of trans people.

[Nadine Spirit]

For me..... I don't see this issue as a hierarchy issue, I see it as a binary issue. Most who frequent these boards are fine with the gender binary. Most of the CDs here are fine with being male, and consider themselves 100% male, with just an odd quirk. Most of the TSs who frequent these boards are fine with being female and consider themselves to be 100% female. And you know what, that is totally cool.

The thing that is not cool is when some of us who insist that we are someone in between the two genders are looked upon as needing to somehow fit into the binary system. Often times our thoughts, ideas, questions, inquiries are dismissed because we are told that we are not really TS and thus we should not consider those things. When we are told what we should and should not do, then it does feel as though some see themselves as being in a position to tell others what they should or shouldn't do. It is not that some are higher or lower, some assume a higher or lower position and then behave as if they were granted a crown.

edit -----

You know for example of what I am saying, what does the title of this thread say "For CDs only......"

Where exactly do folk like me fit in????

CDs don't think we are CDs and TSs don't think we are TSs. Hmm...... maybe then since I don't fit the qualifications stated I should have never replied in the first place.....

[Polly R]

So, this question is for the CDs only. Why do you perceive this hierarchy between us? Is it exclusively about things we say to you, or the way we say them? I don't think so - I think there's a lot more to it than that - but I want to hear your opinions. Please, NO TS OR GG responses. CD only.


Ages since I've been on but this question caught my eye. Last week I went out to my local trans group meeting. I'm strictly a hetero-CD of 35+ years. My wife knows and has helped me a lot to try and come to terms with myself once the storm of coming out to her had subsided. For me, such words as guilt, self-loathing and a host of other descriptions come to mind from the early days. Just couldn't understand the urge to dress up, why me? (And this was before the www and finding I wasn't alone!!). Never wanted to actually become a woman but enjoyed the look and feel of the clothes and all the warpaint. It took me until recent years before I could really come to terms with it. I've read up on the whole LBGT subject and met and talked with many from all sides of the spectrum.

So, back to my local group... They're mainly TS - either gone the whole way or on the way. The general feeling towards us CDers is, 'What's the difference between a CD and a TS? Ans: 'About 5 years...' They do try and push their views on us, the leaders are very active with the local Police force, County Council and Welsh Assembly in pushing the TG agenda. OK, it is changing perceptions about the TS's but I feel it's not too good for us CDers, we're quite happy getting dolled up every so often and going out to a meeting or in most of our cases, blending in and going out for a walk in the town, city or countryside without attracting too much attention and enjoying the inner peace and relief that comes with getting dressed up nicely. I have to agree that their work with the Police force is good - they know about us and if one was to be stopped, you only have to mention the group and the local force's Diversity Officer's name and all 'should' be well.

I do feel that in my local group, it is the TS's who tend to rule the roost and push their views on us CDers.

That's my personal opinion and two penneth...

xx Polly

[AllisonS]

Every house needs a toilet. Groups tend to look for groups they are better than. I think we are the most logical candidate for the job. Monty Pythons skit with the people's front of Judea vs the Judean people's front comes to mind.

[SeanErin]

Newbie reply, Hierarchy implies some sort of order or codification. Bet the members here would rebel and it would be anarchy if someone else's idea of CD was globally applied to them.

[StarrOfDelite]

I don't perceive any notions of a hierarchy. I think that transsexuals have some very real physical and psychological difference from the vast majority of cross dressers, even those who pretty much do what they wanna do with whoever, etc. etc.

Because they are such a small minority community within the larger society, my perception is that the transsexual community has circled its wagons to protect itself, and presents a "if you're not one of us, you're presumed to be against us." face to the world. People who isolate themselves from the larger society, even if that isoolation is acceptable to the larger society, tend to be viewed as elitist. The Nazis thought that the Jews were elitist, and trying to control Germany, for example. Even in he United States, I know Reform Jews who think that Ultra-Orthodox Jews are elitist because they live in isolated groups.

I think that inside the cross-dressing community is where the potential for hierarchies exist. Those who "go out" (even two towns away) can seem a bit condescending to the closeted, those who under-dress tend to baffle a lot of people, and there is the issue of sexual preference which is sort of an underlayment to everything.

I think that cross-dressers and transsexuals need each other politically. The TS are the people with whom the majority of people sympathize profoundly on things like the bathroom laws and medical care access, for example, whereas not many people seem to sympathize with the full dress CD who has to use the urinal trough at a football game because the toilet seats are covered with feces

I wrote in another thread, words to the effect that totalitarian regimes always try to split the relatively large body of dissenters into disparate small groups, and then isolate and crush the small groups one-by-one. I think, for example, if the vocal minority of Haters can convince the majority to turn back the hands of time to the point where an underdresser can be fired merely for wearing a bra to work, then it isn't long before they convince the world that the TS are just a bunch of Weirdos who want to change something which God created, and that's a sin.

Hierarchies and differences be damned. Political strength and unity are what we need. Time enough to fight when everyone's rights are guaranteed by law and supreme court decisions!

[SeanErin]

Well put Starr, I am one of those under dressers with a bra on at work. I did get laid off at one once but that a bigger political morass than folks attire.

To clarify, this was about the time I started and had a few talks with Sr.. HR while in a bra or shelf cami about the environment.

Still had nothing to do with the layoff situation but out of the gate, that was unnerving..

[Laura912]

Zooey, i honestly do not know how to accurately answer your three new questions without writing a book. The answer should be whatever will bring us closer together in understanding each others issues and triumphs without being divisive.

[Samantha_Smile]

Just chiming in with a direct response to the OP.

I'm not sure there is a hierarchy. At least not in my mind.
I don't feel that TS women are anything like CDs, atleast not enough for their to be a hierarchy. I mean sure, both are usually genetic males, both born with a penis, both wear clothes intended for the gender opposite to that which their genitalia denotes.
But that's all.
TS women are women. They aren't wearing the clothing of the opposite gender, they are wearing gender appropriate attire, where as CDs wear clothes of the opposite gender.
This you already know, or at least I hope you do - This is at least how my mind separates the two, and I'm aware it's the broadest of broad strokes.
I could go on for days about the differences between the two but that's not the point I'm making.
Now I do think that many CDs might have the misguided opinion that TS is like graduating from CD school.
I see this mindset a lot on omegle, chatrooms, even in this forum. And I think it comes down to one factor - lack of education on the matter.
Yeah, I know, in this age of the internet, your only excuse for being uninformed is laziness. So if you don't know, a little known website called google can help you out.
http://bfy.tw/5x3Z
Come back when you've read and understood everything on the first 2 pages of results :D

If I sound sarcastic, good. Because if you took offence then it was probably aimed at you.
And if you took it with the humor it was intended, then you may already have searched the same thing a few times yourself.

Honestly, I don't feel that their is a hierarchy. Could just be simple ignorance that looks and feels that way?

[JayeLefaye]

...

Many of you have said that your primary reason for e.g. wanting to come into the TS forum is to learn about our experiences. While there are a lot of things we DO post in the public TS forum, there are a lot of personal struggles that are discussed in private.....

So, I guess what I'm interested to know is... How much do you really want to know?

Hi Zooey!

There ya go again, being honest and open:-)...And thank you for starting this thread, because I think dialogue/conversations are vital. I believe, in my heart of hearts, that if we were all discussing these issues in person, then 97% of us would find our "commonality"...Not our "sameness", but our respect for each of our Diverse Journeys...

I've ventured into the TS Forum a few times, just so that I could read what you all have gone through, and to gain an appreciation of your struggles/battles/etc...But I went there with the intention of "read only", and to educate myself.

With that said:

I know that there is a "sticky" there titled "Ask a TS"...Sorry, my laptop is glitchy, so I might not have the correct title, but can't swap back to verify....But the "Sticky" was started in 2013.

Perhaps, it is time to add a new "sticky"?....Similar to the way the MtF added one recently regarding "The Bathroom Laws"???

Something along the lines of:

"Hey CD's...Or GG's...or...ETC...Or anyone else who has a question, here's a safe place to have a dialogue and ask questions without any flames being thrown at you, because the bottom line is that we all appreciate each other's support"

Okay, I realize that that is too long of a title for a thread:-)

But you asked "How much do you really want to know?"

And my "personal" response?

Regardless of how much I think I've learned over the years, I am always open to learning more!

As volatile as things have become here in the U.S in the last couple of months, I think that a new "sticky" in the T.S Forum would be appreciated by us CD's...And others...

....Especially now, with everything here in the U.S. escalating.

Other's struggles may not be my struggles, but we're all struggling together...And "together" should be the operative word.

Just my 2 cents...

"God bless us, every one"...Tiny Tim via Dickens.

Jaye

[heatherdress]

I'm still not planning to comment directly on any of things I've read here, although it's been very interesting to read. That said, I wanted to highlight this statement in particular. Sarah is not the only person in this thread to have said something similar, but this is the briefest, most direct version of it I've seen in this thread, and I think it sums up the way most of the trans women regulars here feel.



I have some followup questions, based on what I've read here.

Many of you have said that your primary reason for e.g. wanting to come into the TS forum is to learn about our experiences. While there are a lot of things we DO post in the public TS forum, there are a lot of personal struggles that are discussed in private. So here are my questions...

1) Do you feel you would benefit from having more of those struggles discussed in an area that is publicly viewable?

2) Would you feel the same way if some of our discussions were about struggles to understand you, or difficulties (both intellectual and practical) that some people feel CDs and gender-fluid people can cause for us in certain cases? Some of these discussions could sound fairly critical.

3) Do you think that, if you read something covered by #2, you could refrain from fighting us on it?

Speaking for myself, I would be more than willing to start sharing some of my personal experiences and opinions on things in much more direct ways. Believe it or not, I don't actually do it very often here - I debate much more often than I share. I respect that it is a moderation challenge, especially when people get angry/hurt/etc., and there have been casualties associated with this type of discussion already.

So, I guess what I'm interested to know is... How much do you really want to know?

It is interesting to note that you specifically began this thread asking for comments from crossdressers only - and yet it is apparent that this has been rather hijacked and has become more of a defensive commentary suggesting why transsexuals members feel justified to diminish crossdressers. Even your new question Zooey puts transsexuals on a pedestal. Again, this is a crossdresser forum, isn't it? Although individual transition struggles are interesting, encouraging and sometimes heartbreaking, we already have so many threads hijacked by personal transition experiences, feelings and opinions, why would you think crossdressers would want to hear more? Why do you think crossdressers would want to read more threads about why you struggle to understand them?

There already is a Transsexual Forum so why do you think the MTF Crossdresser forum should be the place for transsexuals to specifically share their struggles and experiences and vent their feelings about crossdressers, which happens over and over and over.

What you are suggesting would be more divisive and generate more hurt feelings and disagreements.

[Zooey]

Breaking my rule for a second... Heatherdress, what is your deal? I get that I've clearly pissed you off, but I think you're reaching pretty hard at this point to find offense in what I write.

I only asked the question about people wanting to know more because it specifically came up a number of times from CDs in this thread. I actually was talking about us writing about more personal stuff, and more openly, in the public TS forum. So, we can do that, but sometimes our personal struggles involve or are impacted by CDs. I don't want us to start sharing more openly in public if the only outcome is even more hostility, because it's not worth it for anybody at that point.

Now I'm going back to staying quiet and just reading as a fly on the wall.

[Stephanie47]

I really have not the impression trans women are superior to men who like to wear women's clothing. I followed another thread that seemed to bring out some really big disagreements. Maybe, there's a little fighting going on in the PM's. I don't know. I am a male who likes to wear women's clothing. I am a male. I am not a trans woman. I have no desire to become a woman. I love being a male. I have accepted the premise that there are men and women who were born into the wrong body. Me? I can take the dress off anytime.

I have a friend whose grandson is struggling with his sexual identity. He's in depression. He has lost friends. He's young. He cannot figure out if he's a gay man or a trans woman. My wife has a cousin whose daughter is transitioning surgically to a man. Those people are struggling. Me? Again, I'm comfortable as a man, and, I just like to wear women's clothing on occasion.

Once or twice over the years some trans women have made the comment to me on PM or in a thread that, essentially, "You don't get it!" Contrary to their beliefs, "I do get it!" Being a trans women or a trans man or a gay man or a lesbian woman is not a choice. It is something inherent to the inner mind. I cannot believe anyone would intentionally set themselves up for abuse in society. In the USA you may be shunned or made fun of. In other countries you may be executed.

When I started reading threads on this forum, and, later joined I noticed maybe there really needs to be two separate sites. Cross-dressing does NOT equal trans women. Sometimes I think trans women who are struggling with acceptance must be just plain shaking their collective heads when they read threads about what color panties someone is wearing today.

Oh, just in case someone will jump on me, I realize there are many on this site in "flux." They cannot figure out where they fall on the spectrum. A lot of angst, but, is it due to the inability of getting ample time to wear the clothes or is it because they cannot figure out whether or not they are trying to suppress who they really may be?