Dilemma for 2021 !

[Teresa]

I have just seen a press release concerning the next national census planned for 2021 in the UK. If all goes well they will be asking questions about gender and sexuality in greater depth to ensure the the exact number is known to enable the correct services and agencies to be put in place.
As usual the author has confused gender and sexuality talking at one point about TGs and other times TSs, who is going to educate the media ?
You may be able to leave the " Other gender box " not ticked but it will be a legal offence to make false declarations, it will ask a series of questions about change of gender , if it's already taken place or impending or if it has been reversed, this applies to both male and female.

I consider myself to bi-gendered TG not TS, but I'm not sure what has been entered on my medical records and the agencies that dealt with my gender counselling . As I mentioned it will hopefully be used to assess the numbers involved and what can be put in place to provide the services they need. I have already used the system so I'm registered within it.
So here's my dilemma, I will be happy to be truthful of my status and not doing so will be a legal offence but I'm not sure if my wife will be too happy about me going on an official national record stating my gender status , she may have to accept it but I'm certain the outcome won't be good.

[AllieSF]

You must be a real planner! You have 5 years to start to worry about this. Good to see that you are starting early on that. I try to follow a simple guideline, which has worked pretty well for me. Worry about the things that you can do something about and then try to so something about them. Otherwise don't waste your time, energies and mental health on those that you can do nothing about. Also, one day Teresa you will need to say enough is enough and just do what appears correct to you and live with the consequences of those decisions, and let the others also do the same. You cannot live your wife's nor your children's lives for them. Live yours and they will learn to live theirs, if they have not already done so. I do wish you the best of luck.

[Kate Simmons]

When a Dr. does something like this on his forms I have no problem with it but when the government wants to do it, it's questionable. It should state the purpose of needing the information and it should be personal, otherwise it may amount to "outing" one's self to the government. In Army Intel we operated on a "need to know" basis.If some different power gets in later on, they inherit the information and who's knows if some day they may want to "round up the queers" to get rid of them. I'm not saying it will happen but it's a caveat we have to consider.:)

[StarrOfDelite]

I'm at the stage where I'm worried more about whether I'll be alive and in good health in 2020 (next US Census) than what I will put on my census form.

[Pat]

You must be a real planner! You have 5 years to start to worry about this.

Actually, this is the perfect time to worry about it. The wording can still be changed. I'm not familiar with organizations in the UK, but if this was an issue coming up in the US (census here has already said they have no plans for such questions in the 2020 census,) I'd work with HRC and GLAAD to make sure they get their language and questions right. ;) There must be analogous groups in the UK, right?

But, I also wouldn't worry about "false statements" in this case. It seems unlikely that this would or even could be walked back to your medical records. Very hard to say what truth is when the definitions are in flux.

[StarrOfDelite]

Jennie, I don't know the UK law, but per12 US Code, section 9, individual answers to census questions cannot be disclosed to anyone outside the census bureau, so there is no legal way any individual's personal health records could be cross-referenced to census answers. Furthermore, the use of census information in any judicial or administrative process whatsoever is absolutely barred. The only way the information could be brought to light is if an individual should be prosecuted for failure to answer truthfully.

I agree with your point that the nature and wording of questions about Trans status should have input from people who understand the issues which are important to the community. However, I think it is highly important that such questions be asked by the government, and be answered truthfully. House and Senate members rely heavily on census data to shape laws they propose, and which way they vote on laws proposed by others. Commercial interests do, also.

How can we as a group or as individuals claim we are not respected, that our rights are being trampled, and other protestations that we are a discriminated against class if we refuse to co-operate when the government tries to ascertain how many of us there are, and what are our concerns?

p.s. Meant to point out that the epenalty is purely financial as I understand the statute, there is no jail time involved for violation. Fine = $10,000

[AllieSF]

Jennie, I agree totally about this being the perfect time to make sure the questions are asked correctly and to clarify privacy and other things associated with documenting that which has never been documented and really needs to be documented. My reply is to Teresa and her main concern as I understood from her post about what her wife will think and maybe react to when this census happens 5 years away.

Starr - I know that today when you do a family tree and go searching for validating documentation you can obtain copies of past census submittals. I have seen some for my family written in their own handwriting. From what I remember, I just saw the names and ages of whoever was living in the house at the time of the census. I would guess that they started making some of that data more confidential over the years.

[Teresa]

Allie,
Yes that was my main thought.

Others have raised questions about security of the information . I can give an interesting example, my wife works for the NHS, and on the patient information is a box that can be ticked if it's OK to share information. It had never been explained but she thought it was for internal use within the NHS in fact the information has been used for statistics to pass onto Google and other outside agencies, it does stress no personal details are passed on. Saying that there was the discovery that discarded computers that should have been wiped were repaired in Nigeria resulting in scams and other more serious breaches of the use of personal information.
Perhaps I'm being naive that the census is a good step in the right direction for the TG community.

[AllieSF]

Teresa, I believe that it is a good step, but since most of us are very private about that side of our lives, there should be very good controls on those details. We just do not have enough mass details, or details from a mass population about us. Details that would be very useful for medical care, human/civil rights legislation and all the rest. To get the best results they need to ensure good privacy/confidentiality for those who are transgender (umbrella term), or they will not get complete and truthful data.

[Beverley Sims]

I think it will make life easier, the more that admit it te more will follow.

The domino effect.

[Michala]

Some questions asked by the government don't bother me. Questions about sex (other than M or F or possibly Other) on a census do. First of all, how many of us think the answers will be anywhere near accurate. Second, under penalty of law for an inaccurate answer is virtually impossible to prove so is there really a penalty at all.

It's getting to the point for me when I'm asked to answer my Race, I write "What difference does it make?" My belief is that we will never rid ourselves of racism until we quit referring to a label for people. Sexuality is no different in my mind. We are who we are.

[StarrOfDelite]

JFrom what I remember, I just saw the names and ages of whoever was living in the house at the time of the census. I would guess that they started making some of that data more confidential over the years.


Thanks for the information. I did some very basic research, and discovered that after 72 years the individual responses to Census questions are made available to the National Archives for historical purposes, and that agency makes it available. The 1940 census became available in 2012, and it is the first one that is available online.

Here is an interesting, and somewhat chilling link about the things that Big Brother can learn about us based on computer collation of census answers, even if our "anonymity" is strictly observed by the Census Bureau.

http://epic.org/privacy/census/

In the article the author notes that until 1850 the census was published, so that individuals could check their information for errors. It doesn't say whether people had the right to edit or correct.

Re: Ancestry searches. If the US Census asks questions about gender identification, I wonder what will happen in 2092, when the 2020 census will be public. Will my great-great-great children read it and be proud that I was one of the first people to embrace a truly multi-faceted society, or will they be ashamed to learn that I was one of those sinful transvestite perverts doomed to eternal torment?

Obviously, if we wind up with a totalitarian government, the law regarding confidentiality will be gone with the wind anyway. It is said, for example, that when FDR ordered the internment of the Japanese-American citizens in 1942 the census bureau information was helpful in identifying all of the persons whom the government sought to intern.

[Georgette_USA]

Actually all the US Fed Census, from 1790-1940 except the 1890 which was largely destroyed by a fire, are available online thru sites like ancestry.com . I use them all the time for ancestry searches. Many states also did census data. Plus they have military enlisted records.

Interesting the questions asked. Prior to 1870, slave information was included. Many years the question of speak English were asked.

[marlacd]

Whatever the census asks, I'll answer it. What could the government do to us? Tell us we're all naughty?

Besides, what's to stop the from looking at us right now? Really who are we? Just girls that have a lil' sumthin extra? (Well, some of us) I bought a programmable scanner about ten years ago, to listen to police, and fire calls. Surprise! I was picking up private cellphone calls also. Weekend calls were quite sexual sometimes. (And plenty funny also) Those have gone away since everything went digital.

Others will be more of a threat than us, so I wouldn't be too awfully concerned about it.

Last year, I was rather worried about the IRS auditing me. They dis-allowed one of my deductions for a time, only to refund me my penalty money 6 months later. They left me sweating it out for a good while, however. It was then I decided- If they decide to audit me- we're going to trade uncomfortable. I'm dressing for that event.

[Vickie_CDTV]

In the UK, are census records treated as confidential? They are in the USA... at least on paper they are. Personally, all they get from me is what was originally constitutionally authorized (an enumeration.) Whether I wear dresses, or what my race happens to be, or who I date (or want to as they case my be) is irrelevant.

[heatherdress]

Teresa - Do you really expect exact numbers? Most crossdressers will probably not want to acknowledge their behavior. And how could the government determine those who do not disclose gender accurately if you consider that a dilemma?

[Teresa]

Vickie,
As I said in my OP the report said it was to offer better support and facilities for the TG community, the government is trying to move towards a more open acceptance. Maybe wishful thinking that the budgets will be available . As for the confidentiality the figures are used for so many reasons, I would take it with a pinch of salt that they totally secure. Even so if the reasons are true and not just vote chasing it's a step in the right direction .

Heatherdress,
It depends if they've been through the system and the medical records show it, as in my case. They're not asking for CDers to come out of the closet the report says they need more accurate figures for transsexuals, I guess the suggestion is the NHS may want to know what resources to set aside for the drugs and surgical procedures, which is a fair question, the waiting time is sometimes too long . Obviously they will be other reasons, there are more high profile TSs now in the UK which may be a wake up call.

[Stephanie47]

Interesting the questions asked. Prior to 1870, slave information was included. Many years the question of speak English were asked.

The Constitution as originally passed (Article 1, Section 2) counted slaves for purposes of enumeration and direct taxation as 3/5th of a person.

Teresa, I think you are getting ahead of yourself. I would suggest that you contact the appropriate officials and educate them or at least ask some questions.