Why so many fights here?

[JeanetteX]

Through PMs I have been discussing this topic a lot recently with a few very good friends of mine on the forum. And we all agree...lately it seems there is a lot of hate and fighting going on here, up to a point even where it gets really annoying. Can't we all be a little nicer to each other? We all have our own story to tell, our own reasons, and our own needs. Can't we respect that from each other? We're all here to find support, help, friends and even love! Let's not fight and hate, but let's talk and support instead.

Love, Jeanette

[Giselle(Oshawa)]

nice post Jeanette as the old saying goes "united we stand divided we fall"

[Kate Simmons]

Oh I agree with you Jeanette but some folks just plain like to argue about anything and get in the last word. Human nature for some I guess. :battingeyelashes::)

[Mollyanne]

It seems that because of the times we live in, amounting pressures from all fronts make people uneasy, angry, suspicious, or just argumentative.

Molly

[Lauri K]

I agree that the topics popping up on here are more serious now than they have been in the past or least that is my option.

Coupled up with the fact that the Trans Spotlight is shining everywhere, bathrooms, employment rights, healthcare coverage, elections year that all ratchets up some fairly contentious thoughts and unfortunately turns into some discussion that hit home for many.

So there is a element of personal passion that gets written into messages, since we are at a critical point on so many issues.

Doubt there is any solutions to this problem until some of the contentious issues at hand are behind us.

[ClosetED]

I am not sure I see hate, but I do see people strongly defending their right to express their point of view.
One person may post one point of view, and someone else may want to make sure an alternate point of view is considered by the readers.
That is democracy. It is the response to what the other person said that can be termed fighting.
It can be a fine line to point out additional facts or views to dip into bickering.
Simple phrases can soften the tone of a response - "I see what you are saying, but would you also consider ... "
This is a site of words, pictures, and emoticons (and the Bible was just translated into emoticons!)
Without facial expressions and body language, it can be difficult to get the correct meaning across.
So we just need to consider that.
Hugs, Ellen

[Piora]

"Why so many fights here"

I have to honestly say that I haven't seen much of this happening. Perhaps the 'fighting' you are referring to, was in threads that I didn't have a lot of interest in, so I didn't bother reading or participating.

[JeanetteX]

Piora,

LOL then you haven't been reading a lot of threads lately!

But serious, in this case I was referring to a thread that is no longer on the forum

[Mykaa]

Differing opinions and a "feeling of being right", thing I see is we all share a commonality,to me there is no right or wrong with this as we are what we are, If I can accept me then why not someone else?

[IamWren]

I'd agree with Lauri in that the political atmosphere in the U.S. is getting to a fevered pitch as well as a spotlight has been turned to the transgender / transsexual community.

Another thing is I think the nature of an online forum (just like many online interactions) allows a distance between participants that makes it feel safe to "sit behind the screen" and say whatever you want without filter. On a related side, the written word can often times be misconstrued, especially when members are using phones and tablets to type out comments, not to mention some don't know proper syntax and of course (as you know) for some English isn't their first language.

[Piora]

Piora,

LOL then you haven't been reading a lot of threads lately!


Well, I think I might know the one you are referring to, Jeanette. I agree that one did get out of hand. Others may have been closed and/or deleted before I read them....or I read them, then lost interest, BEFORE they got that way.

[bridget thronton]

It is certainly ok to disagree with each other - the hope is that we can all respect the people we disagree with (diversity of opinions is good for the community)

[LaurenS]

I haven't seen much either, but I have a tendency to overlook insensitive remarks, ESPECIALLY in written form. Too easy for some people to read the wrong inflections and emphasis in written words.

Having said that, it does seem that our current society is agitated much more than in the past couple of decades.

[Teresa]

Jeanette,
I'm inclined to agree with you we're all on the TG spectrum and are living different lives, what applies to one member may have little bearing on another, all we can do is share it.

The point not to forget is we have the freedom and safety to sign onto this forum , to talk about , question and comment, some people do not live in a situation where they have that freedom.

Th English language can be a fickle thing and open to many interpretations , it is sad when one word is used out of place, people take strong exception to it and overreact.

[Lori Kurtz]

Because of the unusual nature of the gender variations that bring us here, most of us have experienced some unusual degrees of embarrassment and guilt and shame in our lives. And those are the very things that we are open about here. When emotions are high, sparks can fly. I think that's why conflicts sometimes flare up here.

Your point is well taken, Jeanette. If we don't support each other with understanding and kindness, how can we expect anybody else to do that for us?

[Nadine Spirit]

I get the idea of support but....... there are plenty of things that folks say that I don't agree with. So..... if someone is hurting themselves or another and they come here and ask for our opinions, should we just say that they are great, and awesome, and wonderful, and that they should continue to do it? Just because we disagree with someone, does that make it a fight? Should everyone, agree and support, everyone, regardless of the context? I just don't think that is right.

I can think of plenty of things that others have written about that could be objectionable:
- stealing clothes from neighbors because they are too afraid to buy their own
- insisting that everyone or no one should transition
- going into women's dressing rooms to fulfill a sexual kink
- having sex outside of a relationship, without permission from the SO, and thinking it shouldn't count because it was with another CD
- no one should ever go outside of the house cross dressed or everyone should go outside of the house cross dressed
- cross dressing in public in a scantily clad, sexual way

These are just some of the examples of things I have read about of these boards that have created disagreements among the members. But I don't personally see anything wrong with that. Support can be seen as just a blanket statement that says no matter what you do or what you think that it is awesome and wonderful, but support could also be helping someone to see the errors of their ways.

If I truly believe someone is in error, I will express that. If they can show me evidence to the contrary, I will gladly change my opinion. If I can show them convincing evidence then they should be willing to change their opinions as well.

[Teresa]

Nadine,
I'm too frightened to disagree !
No seriously, you do make some good points there , you don't need to expand the list but I totally agree with your last paragraph, be prepared to see another point of view ,if it makes sense I'll go with it.

[Tracii G]

When you have a wide group of people you will always have one portion that get their butt hurt constantly.
One portion will always be critical of others because they think they are better for some reason.
There is a portion that doesn't take shit off of others so when you mix them together there will be conflict.
I do wish people would be nicer to each other.

[Jenniferathome]

... Should everyone, agree and support, everyone, regardless of the context? I just don't think that is right. ...

This captures it for me. And sometimes, "support" does mean "get your head out of your arse!" You can call it tough love if it makes you feel better.

[Alice Torn]

Human nature from time immemorial. Human nature must change.

[Amy Fakley]

This site is a pretty good demonstration of the spectrum of people who fall under the general "transgender" label from once in a blue moon fetish dressers on the one side, all the way to TS folk who have been transitioned for 40 years already.

It was already an uneasy Alliance. In truth, in many cases the only thing we all have in common is that to the uneducated general public we're all the same thing. Except of course that we aren't the same thing at all ... Except to the uneducated masses.

Then in the US, marriage equality was upheld by the Supreme Court, and polls reflected that a majority of the public supported this opinion.

Except, unlike LG and B, the term "T" is kinda like the word "smurf" ... It can mean a whole lot of completely different things depending on context.

So now we have an extremely well funded and well organized political offensive against us. But the general public doesn't know in any specific way, who we are. So what you get is the news running all out 24/7 painting all of us with the same brush.

Our uneasy alliance is being tested. regardless of where we find ourselves on the spectrum, we all find ourselves under attack, and the natural human response is to try to mount a defense.

One logical possibility for mounting a defense, is to attempt to more rigidly define the term "transgender", and in that way try to filter out certain subgroups as targets (i.e. "splintering"). While I don't necessarily think that's a good idea, I can understand the logic.

But ... Any way you look at it, at an individual level, each of us has been made fairly powerless in the face of this onslaught. Phychologically, we need a release ... We need a way to feel like we're putting up a defense, and so we come here and let it all out. Sometimes all we need is someone to argue with ... We don't even need to be right, LOL

[Tracii G]

Jennifer I agree with Nadine's comment too.
Sometimes you need to let some one know when they are going off the rails.

[sometimes_miss]

There's likely to be a certain degree of increased outpouring of aggression among some of us, simply because of the built in frustration that comes with living as a crossdresser. The pent up feelings of being disliked by the public in general, and, recently a whole lot of people due to the polarizing bathroom bill arguments, simply come pouring out. All I can hope for, is don't take it personally, because I honesty feel that no one here really means any harm. In fact, if there was a 24 hr delay in putting up every post, I think a lot would be deleted by the writer before they ever got onto the forum.

[GaleWarning]

As far as I am concerned, this forum is well-moderated and a fair degree of tolerance is shown for differing points of view. As one who has quite often had posts deleted, not always for reasons which I could comprehend or agree with, I am pleased with the high standard of discussion that goes on here. I, for one, feel that we do not need to lower the tone of the place.

[cassandra54]

Definitely there is a lot of hate here. I'm surprised. You would think people would be more open minded, but they are not.

[pamela7]

hate? really? heads definitely in arses over that (that's a long stretch to tuck?). disagreements will be inevitable

[Taylor186]

Have to agree with Pam. I've frequented Trans forums where blood runs in the streets every post. Gladiatorial and barbaric, and seemingly unmoderated. This place is positively genteel in comparison, which is one reason why I enjoy coming back here.

[Heidi Stevens]

Thanks for the discussion, Jeanette. We've had some very diverse answers, but all seem to agree that we want moderators to pick off the obvious violators, but allow civilized disagreement.
I know of a couple ladies no longer on the site because they got tired of being beat up by disagreeing folks. But most of the disagreements took place in PM's, so most of us never saw it.
Bottom line is we can disagree publicly with out insulting or belittleing some one who doesn't agree on your way. I always remember an engineering professor who would use a phrase to point out there is almost always multiple answers: "There's more than one way to get to Chicago from here"

[Anneliese]

This site is a pretty good demonstration of the spectrum of people who fall under the general "transgender" label from once in a blue moon fetish dressers on the one side, all the way to TS folk who have been transitioned for 40 years already.






LOTS of excellent posts in this thread!

[~Joanne~]

(I must be cautious what I say)

and that alone is a reason to worry. Should we always be walking on egg shells to discuss CDing? I haven't seen too many posts with a lot of fighting in them but at the same time, I haven't been coming around that much anymore because I get tired of feeling like a second class citizen on a CD FORUM.

[docrobbysherry]

Serously, I think she's helped!:heehee:

I've been a regular here for about 8 years. And, I believe I see changes in the attitudes of the members. Dressers seem to me to be a lot more confident and willing to stand up for their rites these days. And, in posts here, their opinions and positions on dressing. :eek:

I also credit the Mods. They seemed to have morphed along with members and allow more give and take, open discussions, and opinions than ever before.

I hate hate! I think most folks do. I've seen some pointed disagreements, but can't recall ever reading an openly hate filled post here!:thumbsup:

[Lorileah]

Long time listener, first time caller...OK , not. But really people, this forum does give you a good sounding board to agree and disagree as long as you follow the rules (yeah I now you clicked "agree" without reading, I did too 8 years ago). And yes, things get contentious, but honestly, we let a lot of borderline things slide because we want discussions. We don't have to agree (I have been here a looooong time and many of the people I have met here have gone elsewhere. We still may not agree but we still 'talk" and trust me, things were heated back then) and we have had some very strong discussions before. That's what we do. We aren't all the same.

OK back to the show...but please read the FAQs again. Takes a couple minutes and then you won't get all knicker-twisted over what the MODs and Admins do here.




But most of the disagreements took place in PM's, so most of us never saw it.


You know you can report those too

[Gretchen_To_Be]

I'm with ~Joanne~

There is a bit of competition here. We are all at different points on the spectrum. The lurker who has thought about taking tentative steps toward dressing as a woman, but cannot, looks up to those who have the means and situation to purchase clothes and shoes. Many have a wardrobe, but for their own valid reasons, can't shave, or can only dress in secret and envy those for whom it's no longer an issue. Often members would love to be out to their SOs or families but can't see that happening. Some may have freedom, but not the financial resources needed to do things that others take for granted. Many brave members conquer their fears and walk right out the door, and not just to CD events but in commonplace social situations, and leave us closet types admiring from our safe anonymity.

Obviously we'd all love to look more like women--that's why we're here. We are in awe of those blessed with natural feminine faces, petite and slim physiques, and of course youth, which all help. While happy for them, I am jealous of their easy ability to look convincing. Quite a few members take permanent steps to feminize their appearance, and some realize they are truly women and transition.

Those who have progressed in the spectrum can often unintentionally make others, who have not, feel a bit unworthy. It's human nature to extol one's positive attributes. I think most of us seek some validation, so we broadcast the elements of CD or TG of which we are most proud.

I'm floored by those with the guts to go out in public with the muggles, and I express my admiration, as do others. When those members receive that fawning praise, it's a positive feedback loop. Once they have cleared that hurdle, it becomes their new normal, so their view of more closeted members evolves to, "What are you afraid of." Once in a while, that comes off as preachy.

The super courageous folks who live life full time the way they were meant to have truly been through the crucible, so I don't blame them for sometimes seeing those of us in denial, suppression, or hiding as not being true to our authentic selves. Some have taken a very forward political stance and cajole us to be more active, lest we lose the right to wear dresses in private.

It would be interesting to research how many members have gone through a progression from crossdressing to transitioning, and then, as they gain the ability to live their lives the way they were meant to, just sort of blend/fade away. They may pop up occasionally to give support or inspiration, but I suspect many no longer need this place. Maybe once they self-actualize, there is no more need for validation...nothing to prove? Or, like my friend ~Joanne~, those who are just CDs realize there are many other outlets for expression of our interesting lifestyles.

There are many very vocal members here with strong opinions. I get turned off by the holier-than-though comments now and again. I've been attacked for my "materialism" for having a large collection of heels, or for being smarmy by posting pics with my fairly supportive spouse. I've thought about not coming back, but on the other hand there are so many beautiful and wonderful members here who always have a kind or clever word.

It's a mixed bag. I think it's marginally positive, however, so I intend to stay.

Cheers

Gretchen

[Lena]

Hate? I think that term is too easilly thrown around. I've seen opinionated discussions but I've not seen any hate on the forums. Maybe I've missed it.

For me, this is the only place I can speak openly about the current events. I spend all day hearing coworkers, friends, politicians/elected officials, political parties running us in the ground, or using us as the target of jokes. I've seen anti-Crossdresser memes on some family member's Facebook feeds.

Maybe I do get a bit edgy when even this place has people defending those that want to bring us harm.

Recently, stuff in the outside world has gotten quite real. It's beyond just coming here to talk about a panty sale at Kohl's. I wish I could go back to those days but with the current situation, I can't ignore the real hatred that is being channeled at our community from outside.

[Anneliese]

I spend all day hearing coworkers, friends, politicians/elected officials, political parties running us in the ground, or using us as the target of jokes. I've seen anti-Crossdresser memes on some family member's Facebook feeds.


I recently came put to both my daughter and my best (female) friend, and, not surprisingly, they're both totally cool. I have a brother I will telling soon, and he will be fine.

However, I have found out from friends who are on Facebook (not a great surprise considering his politics) my youngest brother is rabidly anti-CD/TS, and I just got off the phone with my best friend from college who is also anti. He doesn't want what he considers men of any kind in the lady's room, but says it would be ok with him if a man dressed as a woman was at the next urinal. I think he's in the minority on that.

The haters just want us to disappear from their view.

(or maybe they like we're around. Gives them something to focus on)

[Crissy Kay]

It seems that because of the times we live in, amounting pressures from all fronts make people uneasy, angry, suspicious, or just argumentative.

Molly

I tend to agree with this. I also liked what Gretchen posted too. I have seen disagreements here, but not all out warfare yet!!

[Leslie Langford]

I'm all for healthy, enlightening discussions and welcome POV's that differ from mine as that is the only way that we will grow and expand our horizons.

What I DO dislike intensely, however is when other posters rely on sarcasm, put-downs, name-calling and other such juvenile tactics to try to reinforce their points, rather than debate them on an intellectual basis and let them stand or fall on their own merits.

That said, there are some posters here who shall be nameless but who really get under my skin because of their innate negativity no matter what the subject, and irregardless of what another member might have innocuously posted but which has put them on their radar screen to attract their particular brand of snark.

Classic passive-aggressive behavior of the type best personified by the "Mean Girls" stereotype...

[Lori Kurtz]

Sometimes you need to let some one know when they are going off the rails.

Yes, that's true, and I don't think my agreeing with this comment is necessarily inconsistent with my own earlier comment: "If we don't support each other with understanding and kindness, how can we expect anybody else to do that for us?"

I think the most important thing for anyone who is about to "let someone know when they are going off the rails." is to ask himself or herself some questions like:
- Is this comment that I'm about to make really for the good of the person I'm about to address it to, or is it to satisfy some needs of my own?
- Is there kindness behind my comment, or is there hostility?
- How can I say what I feel the need to say in a way that is likely to get through to the person, rather than create defensiveness?

There is plenty of kindness and consideration here, but I have also definitely seen comments where the commenter has not thought enough about questions like those.

Incidentally, I appreciate the efforts of the moderators, both in keeping the lines of communication open, and exercising their judgment about what kinds of comments go too far. As per the cliché, it's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it.

[Robin414]

Hey Sis! Thank you for this thread!!

OMG, I have so much to say that speaks to this thread but I'll START by echoing Sue and Ellen with their observations on the whole social media thing, posts can be sooo easily taken out of context and go way off track with nothing more than text, usually 24 hrs turn around time in the 'stew', and a few emoticons 😯 (that 'blob' was one of them, did anyone get it or should I just save the extra data on my phone?)

[flatlander_48]

What I DO dislike intensely, however is when other posters rely on sarcasm, put-downs, name-calling and other such juvenile tactics to try to reinforce their points, rather than debate them on an intellectual basis and let them stand or fall on their own merits.

That is one classic giveaway that someone has run out of arguments. The other would be silence.

However, there are some things that I wish people would get beyond and move on to more substantive ideas. For example, how many times have we heard: "Well, Crossdressers can always retreat and go back to male mode."? This sounds just like (in concept) what bisexuals have heard for decades. The reality is that in the minds of the general public, there is no distinction between Crossdressers, Transgender folks and Transsexuals. In theory, any one of us could be accosted, called out, challenged, belittled, etc. in the same way. Also in theory, there may be no distinction in status if someone decides to press the issue forcefully. People don't stop to ask what you are because they feel they already know, and it wouldn't make any difference anyway. I suspect then, in a given situation, whether you present as female 100% of the time or once in a whatever, the odds of things going sideways may be pretty close. In part, this "retreat" notion may be part of the reason behind the concept of heirarchy.

Previously, there was a lot of discussion here about Heirarchy. Heirarchy exists for 2 reasons. The first is because someone says there is a heirarchy. The second is because someone else agrees that it is so. It takes 2 to tango. Unfortunately, both seem to be covered here.

There is also the suggestion by some that Crossdressers have it "easy", but I would question that. When you're living 2 disparate lives, it would seem to be VERY stressful. Granted, there is no doubt that transition is a difficult and arduous path. But, there is a lot of precedent for it, it is fairly well defined and goes in one direction only. And, in a number of locations there are specific legal protections in place. But, what happens if a previously closeted Crossdresser is outed without their consent? Transitioners expect the possibility of problems with family, employment, etc. Sometimes there is and sometimes there isn't, but these are potential hurdles that everyone has to face. However, for many Crossdressers, there is the constant risk of being found out. And, often when people are closeted it is because they expect strongly negative reactions to their truth. Note that this is not intended to suggest a Better Than/Worse Than situation. But, it should serve as a reminder that where ever you are on the spectrum (Crossdresser, Transgender person in the middle or Transsexual), there are risks, dangers and difficulties associated with all.

We're ALL struggling with SOMETHING and no one has it easy.

To me, if those 3 notions went away, the community As a whole would be much better off.

DeeAnn

[Lauri K]

Waiting for BT and Z to weigh in here.

Transition is not linear............as the books and you tube videos suggest.

Sorry Dee Ann but comparing CD's to TS/TG is not apples to apples comparison, TS / TG folks cannot magically switch back and forth like CD's can

Once you grow your hair out, get boobs it's a one way street................

Agree we are all struggling here and none of us has it made in the shade, but come on now be realistic

This is why we get cross threaded here................

[gabyespinotv]

we are going to agree and disagree with certain topics...but one thing i don't understand is censorship and prudish moralism in a fetichistic forum.
If you dont like the topic...don't read it..if you wanna express a different opinion...that's fine...but don't try to act like you're in the church forum because this clearly isn't it.
So i agree with you..i honestly don't understand why is there so much fighting here.

[Robin414]

Dear respected member,



We're ALL struggling with SOMETHING and no one has it easy.
DeeAnn

Your absolutely right DeeAnn and gender identity is the root!

(And my intro, maybe it should be mandatory, seriuosly, Docs use it 'defacto', mind you some young'un residents ARE slipping 😐 )

[flatlander_48]

Sorry Dee Ann but comparing CD's to TS/TG is not apples to apples comparison, TS / TG folks cannot magically switch back and forth like CD's can

First, I didn't say this. It pops up from time to time from the Transsexual end of the spectrum, so it isn't my comparison. And note that I mentioned 3 distinct categories: Crossdressers, Transgender folks in the middle of the spectrum and Transsexuals. The folks in the middle of the spectrum are not transitioning.

When this particular notion comes up, someone from the Transsexual camp is lamenting that Crossdressers and Transgender folks in the middle of the spectrum have the option of returning to their male state when times get tough. In effect, it is a way of discounting the experience of Crossdressers and Transgender folks in the middle and is embedded in that notion of Heirarchy.

So, the result is that while Transsexuals do have more exposure as they are in the public eye more often, the risk for Crossdressers and Transgender folks in the middle isn't that much different for any single situation.

DeeAnn

[Tracii G]

Oh good Lord if we could all just switch back there would be no need for this damn site.

[Andrea2656]

There is a saying that you cannot understand someone until "you have walked in their shoes". This should resonate with all of use as we have all walked in our male mode and female mode. This is a diverse and complicated community. There are those that have just discovered the urge to crossdress. There are others for who transition is an imperative. We all are walking different paths but need to seek support from other that may have traveled a similar path. A closet crossdresser may get help from those that have shared their experience with a SO. Someone uncertain as to where they are on the transgender spectrum will get advice from those further along. A member who is contemplating SRS can get views from those that have decided that transition is right from them. This is a community. Individuals will all walk their own paths and there is no correct answer for all. However, we come to this forum to be a part of the community. People do not have the always agree but civil discourse is essential to keeping our community healthy.

[Zooey]

When this particular notion comes up, someone from the Transsexual camp is lamenting that Crossdressers and Transgender folks in the middle of the spectrum have the option of returning to their male state when times get tough. In effect, it is a way of discounting the experience of Crossdressers and Transgender folks in the middle and is embedded in that notion of Heirarchy.

Why does it have to be "hierarchy" rather than "an important/significant difference"?

For what it's worth, we expect the same acknowledgement of that difference from TS folks too - it's the full-time vs. part-time vs. full-time-except-for-blah thing.

[Lacey New]

Not so sure I see a lot of fighting going on. In fact, I see more support. Every one of us is in a different place with respect to our sexual preferences, fetishes, hang-ups or whatever as well as in different places with respect to our gender identity. So what? Respect that. One thing is for sure in common for everyone here on this site - from time to time, we wear garments typically associated with the gender opposite of our birth gender. As such, we are all crossdressers. And guess what - that's the name of this site!! Relax and peace sisters.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Jeanette:hugs:, I read the threads and if it's something that I don't care for I will just move on.

There were a couple members who's threads that I didn't even want to read....:daydreaming:...

[flatlander_48]

Why does it have to be "hierarchy" rather than "an important/significant difference"?

You would have to ask the people who feel that way. I don't see a reason to do that. Personally, I think a lot of the distinctions that people try to impose are completely unnecessary and are intended (consciously or unconsciously) to separate rather than solidify. And as I said, the general public doesn't really see any sort of distinction. Across all 3 groups that I laid out, I think our chances of being challenged in a restroom, made fun of, etc. are roughly the same.


For what it's worth, we expect the same acknowledgement of that difference from TS folks too - it's the full-time vs. part-time vs. full-time-except-for-blah thing.

So, I would ask why that is necessary? Is there a particular point? From my observation, this information has been used negatively by some.

DeeAnn

[docrobbysherry]

Good point, DeeAnn. It's like some folk's don't care about CDs. Yet, nearly every TS started out as a CD.

Just because you're "further down the road"than other dressers, why is it necessary to look down on them? You've over come your circumstances and your demons and commit to living as a female full time. For that u should be commended and congratulated. But, no matter how difficult it was for u to make the jump, u still have no idea what other dresser's lives r like. Or, how difficult and different their situation is. There r so many T's that would love to live as TS's but just can't!

[Teresa]

Sherry,
I said the same reply in another thread and was given a hard time !
You have made sacrifices to get where you are now, it wasn't easy, I'm fighting hard to retain my forty years of marriage and all that goes with it, , hoping it's going to be worth the the difficulties. Most of us carry crosses the only difference is what's written on them !

[Stephanie47]

I started to put in a response, but, deleted it before posting. I wanted to see where the thread was going. JeanetteX really did not start the post with CD vs post operation transitioned transwoman. I came back after I read something that ruffled my feathers on another thread. My disgust. The choice of words and phrases to cast dispersions upon a general population. I've always had to read and reread the thoughts I want to convey with the proper use of adjectives and adverbs. JeanetteX was very definite in her plea......"nicer"...."respect."

I can understand when someone throws out a wide net to catch everyone or paints with a broad stroke words will ruffle feathers.

[flatlander_48]

As I said, the thing about the notion of Heirarchy is that it does require 2 sides. If hardly anyone believes that it is true, it doesn't gain any traction. That's the side that we, as Crossdressers and Transgender folks in the middle, control and that we must reject. The idea never takes hold without our agreement. I think we would all be better off, and it would remove a source of underlying conflict, if we could all (Crossdressers, Transgender folks in the middle and Transsexuals alike) erase this notion from our minds.

DeeAnn

[Teresa]

DeeAnn,
To take up your point which I agree with.
When I meet other members of my social group, I don't know any of them apart from their femme names , I don't know where they are on the TG road , all I can do is meet and chat with them and treat them as equals, I can't understand why this can't happen on the forum !

[flatlander_48]

T:

That's a good question and, to me at least, the answer is not clear. As I said, I really don't think the general populace knows enough at this point to understand that there are 3 distinct groupings. If someone wanted to kick any one of us out of a women's restroom, they wouldn't care about what part of the spectrum we belonged to nor would they ask. Basically we're all stuck in the same boat, but it seems very hard to bridge the gaps.

There is the idea among some Transsexuals that if they join with other parts of the spectrum, they will lose their identity. Personally, that doesn't make sense as we are currently not seen as 3 groupings. We are seen as ONE group. Can't lose what you don't have.

Anyway, that's what I see at present.

DeeAnn

[Dana44]

Incredibly, I like it when the TS folks or GG's come into the threads to post as we appreciate what they have to say. Threads that don't fit me I pass over as I don't have anything to add. I try to post nice thoughts and sometimes but not often get torn apart. But the diversity of this site and what there is to offer is amazing. I do agree that we are all in the same boat but when someone say and calls out something in a negative way it sees that that is fighting, but may not be understood probably and you need to read it all before you respond.

[Zooey]

For what it's worth, we expect the same acknowledgement of that difference from TS folks too - it's the full-time vs. part-time vs. full-time-except-for-blah thing.
So, I would ask why that is necessary? Is there a particular point? From my observation, this information has been used negatively by some.

Ask any of the women who have gone full-time and agree with it. Many of them didn't quite believe it before going full-time, but like clockwork, going full-time is a fundamentally different experience.

Trans women who are mid-transition and part time are women, and have a lot of valuable experiences. Still, there is a huge difference in practical terms between full-time and not-full-time. It's the difference between having "hiding places" and having "nowhere to hide", and between "living as a gender" and "going out as a gender". It's also usually when you transition at work, and open up the biggest can of worms you've ever seen.


Good point, DeeAnn. It's like some folk's don't care about CDs. Yet, nearly every TS started out as a CD.

Just because you're "further down the road"than other dressers, why is it necessary to look down on them? You've over come your circumstances and your demons and commit to living as a female full time. For that u should be commended and congratulated. But, no matter how difficult it was for u to make the jump, u still have no idea what other dresser's lives r like. Or, how difficult and different their situation is. There r so many T's that would love to live as TS's but just can't!

We did not really start as CDs, but more importantly, we are NOT "high level" or "end of the road" CDs. We are not "dressers". We didn't commit to transition, we just committed to being who we really are. The only thing we all overcame was all of the lying to ourselves and others.

This is the type of language that causes us problems here. While you may not see it this way, it tries to erase our identity as women. More importantly, it sets you up for this false sense of "hierarchy". We're not the end of the road for you. We're on another road, with some more or less superficial similarities.

[flatlander_48]

Ask any of the women who have gone full-time and agree with it. Many of them didn't quite believe it before going full-time, but like clockwork, going full-time is a fundamentally different experience.

Sorry that wasn't clear. Have no doubt that what you say is true. However, I was speaking from the viewpoint of the Heirarchy that we've been talking about as I think it has some bearing there.


Trans women who are mid-transition and part time are women, and have a lot of valuable experiences. Still, there is a huge difference in practical terms between full-time and not-full-time. It's the difference between having "hiding places" and having "nowhere to hide", and between "living as a gender" and "going out as a gender". It's also usually when you transition at work, and open up the biggest can of worms you've ever seen.

But, tell me this. You and I are standing in the women's restroom somewhere (mall, department store, convention center, somewhere). Any anatomical differences aside (as that shouldn't be obvious just from looking), if someone is of a mind to make a challenge, would they perceive you any different from me? You being a Transsexual who has transitioned and me being a Transgender person who has no plans to transition.

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

I didn't realize this was a bathroom discussion...

As I've said many times before, anybody can be challenged. Cis people are being challenged now, "butch" women have been for a quite a long time. So, the big difference between you and I is that I have an accurate photo and an "F" on all of my government issued identification, and barring some incredibly backwards laws gaining more traction, I will ultimately win out.

Also, not all anatomical differences are invisible. My face has become rather feminine, as has my frame. I've got a waist, hips, and a butt. My boobs don't come off. I'm not saying anybody should be groping anybody to "check their oil", and I definitely don't see myself as a terribly beautiful woman, but I don't really read as "man" either at this point. There's no one physical characteristic that makes you be seen as "woman" or "not woman", but things do tend to add up to paint a picture over time on HRT.

[MelanieAnne]

And we all agree...lately it seems there is a lot of hate and fighting going on here, up to a point even where it gets really annoying. Can't we all be a little nicer to each other?

I fully understand this is a support group. But I have been crossdressing most of my adult life, with little or no problems, just exercising some common sense. And I see a lot of stuff here that is frankly stupid, and clearly not going to end well. Some of the stuff I read here is impossible to support, and we don't do anyone any favors by encouraging activities that we know aren't going to end well. Posters who want to parade around the house in a dress and heels in front of their children are especially troubling. Some posters have achieved a DADT agreement with their SOs, but continue to push for more. Again, not going to have a happy ending. Other posters have wives and kids, but act like it's all about them, all the time, and what they want.

[MissDanielle]

We did not really start as CDs, but more importantly, we are NOT "high level" or "end of the road" CDs. We are not "dressers". We didn't commit to transition, we just committed to being who we really are. The only thing we all overcame was all of the lying to ourselves and others.100% THIS. I know for a fact from talking with others that many of us who are transitioning did not start buying women's clothing until AFTER we came to terms with being trans. I've been on HRT for over a month. I feel amazing. I'm no longer depressed. Now I'm just slowly being as patient as I can for the physical changes to start.

[arbon]

There r so many T's that would love to live as TS's but just can't!


I think that totally misses.
Wanting to live as Ts is crazy. Why would anyone want to do that? Okay maybe some do and I don't understand it. I'm struggling in my life, fighting for my life as a woman. Not as a Ts. I don't want to live or be identified as Ts. I'm a woman, that is the life I strive for, because It is who I am. It has nothing, zero, to do with cloths or makeup or panties. That is where people get hung up.

If your a woman inside then be that in the rest of your life. If your Ts not very many will understand what you really are

[Mylie Taylor]

IOther posters have wives and kids, but act like it's all about them, all the time, and what they want.
I think it only comes across this way to you because this is a forum about Crossdressing, not every single aspect of their marriage. If someone posted a thread about what age they started reading to their children or where the most romantic places to play tennis together are, and made no mention of Crossdressing it would probably be modded for not being relevant to the forum.

[flatlander_48]

Z:

The point was not about bathrooms per se. It is about public perception. They're not going to ask if either of us has transitioned or not. And, regardless of what your documents say, it won't prevent the initial challenge. Further, it doesn't make any difference if it's in a restroom, being pointed at in the grocery store or being called out at the mall. We all face the same problems.

Anyway, across the 3 major groups in the community, I don't see much difference in our chances of being challenged, embarrassed, etc. We all basically represent targets. To me, this should be a rallying point. Sure, it would be great if the population at large understood the differences in our community and what's going on for people. But, I don't see that happening in the near term. It is difficult enough to absorb new information and it gets even worse if preconceived notions and prejudices have to get displaced first. In the near term, it seems to make far more sense to band together.

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

You're focusing on the wrong parts of the problem, and arguably proving my point for me. This obsession with "being challenged" is pointless, and so not the problem.

All of us, at least those of us who leave the house, can be challenged. We can be stared at, pointed at, whatever. There is literally nothing we can do to prevent that. There is no legislation that will prevent uncomfortable staring. Passing privilege is a thing, and even as a person who seems to benefit from it more often than not, it's hard. It's an ever-present drain, but it's the price of being yourself.

So... When I get stared at, I have no choice but to pick myself up and move forward. When somebody points, I give them the evil eye and move on, because I have to buy groceries, go to work, etc. It doesn't matter if I'm on my last shred of ability to deal with it that day/week/month, or even if I'm beyond that. This is my life, and I have to live it. It doesn't matter if I had a terrible day at work and then went straight from really intimidating men whistling and telling me to smile to an old man in the grocery store staring me straight in the eyes while I'm waiting in line for the self-checkout. It's my life.

When a CD gets challenged too much and gets uncomfortable, they get to go home, wash up, and go do their business as a man. Maybe they decide not to go out again. Maybe they decide that they'll only go to the "easy places" when "dressed". Maybe they only go out at night where the harsh light of the sun doesn't reveal all of their flaws.

They have the luxury of hiding, and yes, it is a luxury. CDs can go back to a privileged male identity any time they want. CDs have the luxury of getting to have fun "as a woman" (or so they think), but never have to deal with the actual reality of living as one.

This is how you end up with a bunch of men in panties spewing hot identity-erasing air, so often laced with some of the most sexist/misogynistic junk I've seen.

[Lorileah]

Anyway, across the 3 major groups in the community,

Subtly explains why there are fights here...we make distinctions.

But I do agree, if everyone here doesn't join together somebody is going to lose an eye. (strange metaphor but go with it)

This thread has once again become an Us Vs Them thing and classically shows why 1) we fight and 2) why we can never get together. And wasn't that the OP? Not how or why or when someone becomes TS or who has it worse, but it went there. Everyone's life sucks somehow. I will refer those who are interested to the song "It sucks to be me" from AvenueQ and to use a few lyrics (again, look them up)
ALL
It sucks to be you.

KATE MONSTER
You win!

ALL
It sucks to be you.


Let's get this back on track here. It was not a CD vs DQ vs GQ vs fetish vse pre trans vse trans vs whatever (see even I can't keep this as "we as a whole") Can we get back on the question? and quit throwing mud? Oh wait that WAS the original question.

Did I yellow card this already? If not then...

[docrobbysherry]

Thank u for the correction, Zooey. I never meant that TS's were "better" than us CD's. Because the proper word IS "different". Very different in the way we live our lives.

For me, dressing is mostly fun now. But, when I first began, I wanted to transform into a physical female. And, that caused me countless sleepless nites and visits to counselors and doctors. It was disturbing, confusing, and frustrating. I am much happier since those desires vanished!

[Pat]

But I do agree, if everyone here doesn't join together somebody is going to lose an eye. (strange metaphor but go with it)

Wait... isn't that only if we run with scissors? Or is the message that if we divide ourselves into those with scissors and without scissors and then divide those groups into runners and walkers and if the walkers spill pudding without cleaning up after themselves...?? I get so confused.

We fight because sometimes we get too wrapped up in ourselves and forget that we are all brethren (and cistern.) And we start thinking that the answer that is right for us ought to be the answer for everyone or else that would mean our answer is wrong and we can't face that. The fact is that your answer IS right (for you) and my answer is also right (for me) and our answers may change over time. ;)

[Beverley Sims]

I think we are all on different teams and are pushing our own barrow.

We want our side to be heard and what better way than shouting someone else down.

Well there is a better way, just don't shout each other down, ask the other party why they think that way, then go away and think about it.

You do learn a lot that way.

[Zooey]

We ARE different, and we (or at least I, in this and similar threads) argue when people (often the same few people) try to erase those differences. There is zero value in people repeatedly proclaiming that we're all "in the same boat" by insisting upon using a purposefully incomplete and conveniently framed definition of "boat".

"I get that you're an apple, and I begrudgingly acknowledge that I'm a pickup truck, but at the end of the day we're both red, and isn't THAT what really matters? We're basically in the same boat."

Rather than trying to ignore our differences, we should embrace them and try to learn more about them. We should endeavor to find our ACTUAL similarities, instead of inventing false equivalencies.

[Tina_gm]

Just as society is dealing with transgender now being more mainstream (whether they like it or not) it is causing a type of growing pain. And for us too, our own landscape is changing and it is causing a type of growing pain. In some ways, we ourselves are in the midst of redefining ourselves. We are actually learning more about being transgender and the different variations of gender variance. More professionals, more experts in the field of human behavior and character, gender issues are learning about how gender is not the black and white it was once thought to be.

The differences of opinions is actually a healthy thing. disagreeing is ok too, part of the equation of it all. The put downs, compromising others is not cool, but it is also a part of human behavior and it is found within the transgender ranks, regardless of where in the transgender ranks we are.

[AllisonS]

Part of human behavior...Yep John Gottman describes the four horsemen that kill relationships. Pretty cool work studying couples, seeing how they fail. The two most applicable to an online forum are criticism and contempt. A relationship cannot survive contempt. You need at least 5 positive exchanges for every negative one to have any chance. So, despite the emotional content of some threads, there are a lot of positive exchanges on this site. Search John Gottman if you're interested. Its helpful to understand the difference between a criticism and a complaint and to of course avoid contemptuous comments.

Its more about how people talk to each other than what subject is being discussed

Good question OP..

[Tina_gm]

Allison, that is a very good observation. Probably where killing someone with kindness comes from, sorta. A supervisor will typically get the most from their employees when they make them feel good about themselves and what they are doing. Yet, a supervisor is also typically giving direction that is generally not something anyone wants to really hear. Do more, work harder, stay later etc etc etc. It is obviously more complicated than this, but in a small nutshell, that is it.

We can get more good discussion with each other, despite our differing opinons and ideas, despite our disagreements at times when we still respect each other.

[emma5410]

We can get more good discussion with each other, despite our differing opinons and ideas, despite our disagreements at times when we still respect each other.

That is the key. Mutual respect. It is not the same as pretending we are all exactly the same. If we were then mutual respect would not be an issue. Unfortunately, some people cannot accept that we are different e.g. CD, TS, TG. We can be different and still support each other.


Rather than trying to ignore our differences, we should embrace them and try to learn more about them. We should endeavor to find our ACTUAL similarities, instead of inventing false equivalencies.

Exactly Zooey.

[flatlander_48]

You're focusing on the wrong parts of the problem, and arguably proving my point for me. This obsession with "being challenged" is pointless, and so not the problem.

Then you missed the point. We are perceived as one group by society at large, yet we continue to resist that notion. Certainly we are not interchangeable and many of our interests are different. But, because we do not have a unified voice, I think at best we're holding station and may even be losing a touch here and there. Sadly, that is the price of incoherence.


When a CD gets challenged too much and gets uncomfortable, they get to go home, wash up, and go do their business as a man. Maybe they decide not to go out again. Maybe they decide that they'll only go to the "easy places" when "dressed". Maybe they only go out at night where the harsh light of the sun doesn't reveal all of their flaws.

They have the luxury of hiding, and yes, it is a luxury. CDs can go back to a privileged male identity any time they want. CDs have the luxury of getting to have fun "as a woman" (or so they think), but never have to deal with the actual reality of living as one.

Careful, that's perilously close to this idea of Heirarchy. Further, remember that in many cases, Crossdressers are attempting to juggle at least 2 lives. SS-DD.


Subtly explains why there are fights here...we make distinctions.

No, look at it this way. We allow ourselves to use difference as a wedge instead of appreciating it, embracing it and letting it bring us together. Movements go forward on the collective resolve of the participants. As long as we are fractured, there will be no collective resolve. That's the simple truth of it.

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

Then you missed the point. We are perceived as one group by society at large, yet we continue to resist that notion. Certainly we are not interchangeable and many of our interests are different. But, because we do not have a unified voice, I think at best we're holding station and may even be losing a touch here and there. Sadly, that is the price of incoherence.

I don't care how we're perceived right now, because fixing any of this require reshaping the public perception, one way or another. That said, I'm perfectly willing to participate in a unified voice. I will scream at the top my lungs with all of you that all trans people, regardless of their particular gender identity, deserve more respect and understanding, and should be protected from discrimination in employment, housing, public accommodations, etc.

However, giving males who identify as Men access to the women's room is not preventing discrimination. It's entitling men to yet another space occupied by women. As much as I hate to agree with TERFs ever, it is the height of male privilege to demand access to the women's room while simultaneously declaring, defending, and realizing all the benefits of your manhood. I personally believe that the women's room should be for women, but my minimum requirement for being able to advocate for someone having a right to be in the women's restroom is that they are not a man.

As I've said elsewhere, if crossdressers want me to advocate for them having the RIGHT to be in there, then they will need to explain to me (and their wives, doctors, etc.) that they aren't men.


Careful, that's perilously close to this idea of Heirarchy. Further, remember that in many cases, Crossdressers are attempting to juggle at least 2 lives. SS-DD.

Okay? So do pre-full-time transitioning women. They also deal with the added hurdles of dealing with the feminizing effects of hormones in public before going full-time, and the fact that they are generally (somewhat by definition) dealing with what is often much worse internal conflict when having to present as male (often getting substantially worse in the lead-up to full-time). Ultimately though, they're women, while the CDs are generally (by their own self-identification) men.

It's not a hierarchical thing. I'm not trying to compare suffering. I feel terrible for anybody who's suffering. I'm talking about significant differences in lived experience that make it silly to treat them as the same.

[Georgette_USA]

However, giving males who identify as Men access to the women's room is not preventing discrimination. It's entitling men to yet another space occupied by women. As much as I hate to agree with TERFs ever, it is the height of male privilege to demand access to the women's room while simultaneously declaring, defending, and realizing all the benefits of your manhood. I personally believe that the women's room should be for women, but my minimum requirement for being able to advocate for someone having a right to be in the women's restroom is that they are not a man.

As I've said elsewhere, if crossdressers want me to advocate for them having the RIGHT to be in there, then they will need to explain to me (and their wives, doctors, etc.) that they aren't men.

Okay? So do pre-full-time transitioning women. They also deal with the added hurdles of dealing with the feminizing effects of hormones in public before going full-time, and the fact that they are generally (somewhat by definition) dealing with what is often much worse internal conflict when having to present as male (often getting substantially worse in the lead-up to full-time). Ultimately though, they're women, while the CDs are generally (by their own self-identification) men.


Not to promote any warfare here.

I come from an age where there was NO legal right to identify as a female/woman without SRS. After my name change, I changed my work ID and security ID, no gender marking on those, and needed them for work to transition. Everything else had to wait for my surgery at least 10 months. I had to fight with HR on the legal right to transition and work as a female, even accepted their suggestion of using the ladies rooms on upper parts of the building where I was not as well known until after SRS. Felt lucky that I didn't lose my job. Because of all this I may have held onto the belief of that requirement, but have come to accept changes.

We have come a long way from that. Many TG/TS can now change many legal documents for gender identifiers. Some states still do not allow that. It does help the many with documentation while transitioning. It is not a requirement to even have SRS at any time. Legal name change was never a problem, but would look weird to authorities without the gender change.

I think what you are saying is for the non-transition (CD or other types) of people to actually get some kind of documentation of GID/GD.

[Amanda M]

There are fights on here because some members are so convinced of their superiority to poor cds. When I am dressed as identify as female, and it is my choice to do so.

Would those of who object to that please read - and re-read - the title of this forum?

[flatlander_48]

However, giving males who identify as Men access to the women's room is not preventing discrimination. It's entitling men to yet another space occupied by women. As much as I hate to agree with TERFs ever, it is the height of male privilege to demand access to the women's room while simultaneously declaring, defending, and realizing all the benefits of your manhood. I personally believe that the women's room should be for women, but my minimum requirement for being able to advocate for someone having a right to be in the women's restroom is that they are not a man.

Obviously we spend a lot of time with this issue as it was basically thrust upon us. However, there are other things going on such as being able to deal with gender-related issues within employer medical coverage, GENDA legislation, violence, severe unemployment/underemployment, etc. Restroom wars has the effect of causing us to be defocused, and that isn't good.


As I've said elsewhere, if crossdressers want me to advocate for them having the RIGHT to be in there, then they will need to explain to me (and their wives, doctors, etc.) that they aren't men.

Remember that there are really 3 groups, but you haven't mentioned the 3rd. What do you think about people in the middle who are not transitioning? How do you perceive their needs? How do they fit into all of this?


It's not a hierarchical thing. I'm not trying to compare suffering. I feel terrible for anybody who's suffering. I'm talking about significant differences in lived experience that make it silly to treat them as the same.

It's not about treating everyone the same. It is about allowing difference to exist. If we were to attempt to treat everyone the same, it says that we are unwilling to put effort into understanding those differences. In effect, it is the ultimate form of insult because it says I don't value you enough to want to understand. So, when someone says "I treat everyone the same.", it is a cop out and indicates a very lazy and insensitive way of existence.

DeeAnn

[AllisonS]

The last few posts make me wonder if part of the fighting isn't about the gender binary system. Some people seem to be very invested in that. Others of us believe that dichotomy is artificial and oppressive. Its a fundamental difference in worldview that will inevitably lead to differing opinions about social and moral issues, including things as simple as going to the bathroom. A difference in views that deep is probably not going to be resolved in a medium as sterile as an online forum. The best you could hope for is to prevent that difference from interfering with other matters people would like to discuss, including matters that fundamentally conflict with the gender binary system.

[BillieAnneJean]

The nastiness may be a general trend in the USA for the population to be less kind and civilized than years ago. Yes I know we are no longer doing heinous things we used to do. But the general civility isn't as nice as it used to be. You'd a thunk that on a mutual interest forum like this that we would see a bit more compassion but apparently not. I do know some people, myself included, tend to post less because we get tired of the nastiness. I have received PMs from some who became disenchanted with the nastiness on this forum, ALTHOUGH it is really NOT a symptom of this forum but of society in general.

[JeanetteX]

Thanks Billie, its good to read that you and I share the exact same opinion and have the same experiences

[BillieAnneJean]

And I want to make it perfectly clear that I feel VERY FORTUNATE that this forum is operating. I feel that the admins do a great job, not perfect, but who is. Well maybe one of them.

[JeanetteX]

Totally agreed!!!

[mykell]

after being in and reading lots of threads of that nature i recently started a thread about being a trans ally, it was with hope that we could all see the positive that we ALL can contribute for the greater good.

not all can be card carrying flag waving supporters but little things add up, someone who admits that a purchase is indeed for themselves, those who go out and answer questions as they are fielded, simple little things that are done daily by thy group....they add up....it was a short lived thread, 4 maybe five reply's, wasnt expecting it to be viral but thought it would garner interest......the negativity pulls interest :facepalm: passion:censor:, look at the stuff on online news stories, the ones with the most comments are not rainbows and lollypops......... bitterness:Playnice:, contention :argue:, hate :bringiton:, sells ....... just easier to be that way behind the keyboards:strugglin

[Nadine Spirit]

The nastiness may be a general trend in the USA for the population to be less kind and civilized than years ago.

A not so short internet search turns up lots of sites that support this thought. But they are all opinion based boards, like this one. It's actually kind of tough to find one that has some references to articles and studies instead of just opinions; here is one of them:

http://thecabbagechronicle.com/opinion/the-world-isnt-getting-meaner-we-just-think-it-is/

I do think this one is interesting also:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/12/the_world_is_not_falling_apart_the_trend_lines_rev eal_an_increasingly_peaceful.html


It is not true that the world today is a worse place. Do some research. The facts are there if you are looking for them. If all you want are other's opinions that will help support your own, those are there as well. But opinions are not facts.

How about this idea folks - humanity is a spectrum, and because we are not all the same, we will disagree on occasion.

[DanielleLee]

Disagreement is natural. The issue however is that for whatever reason there are some on this forum (to say nothing of society) who think that civility, manners or couth is something that is old fashioned and can be ignored... E.g. "call it like they see it". It's very possible to be polite and think someone is full of s**t. For example:

newandpurtyluvstoCD: I think we have too much infighting amongst ourselves. Can't we be friendlier?
oldhatgetoffmyvanitycd response 1: What kinda nonsense is this rainbows and unicorn friends bulls**t? Get your head out of your a** !
oldhatgetoffmyvanitycd response 2: That's an interesting train of thought... but the Mods are on top of any infighting.
Lorileah response: So help me... if anyone steps a half inch out of line on this thread... I swear by God and sonny Jesus you will all visit the infirmary

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Zooey]

Remember that there are really 3 groups, but you haven't mentioned the 3rd. What do you think about people in the middle who are not transitioning? How do you perceive their needs? How do they fit into all of this?

Currently bathrooms recognize two genders, which feels limiting to you, and I can understand why. I believe in a shift towards gender neutral bathroom availability, because IMO if you are not a man and not a woman, then what we're highlighting is a problem with recognition. You need a bathroom that recognizes your identity - you do not need access to women's spaces. I don't think we can build infinite bathrooms to account for all the possible genders, so I support moves towards the eventual elimination of gender segregated bathrooms. That's very different from advocating that men and non-women should necessarily have access to women's spaces.


It's not about treating everyone the same. It is about allowing difference to exist. If we were to attempt to treat everyone the same, it says that we are unwilling to put effort into understanding those differences. In effect, it is the ultimate form of insult because it says I don't value you enough to want to understand. So, when someone says "I treat everyone the same.", it is a cop out and indicates a very lazy and insensitive way of existence.

Emphasis added. I have 2 questions...

1) In what way am I not allowing difference to exist? I've been suggesting that we acknowledge our differences, rather than try to paper over them.
2) I'm very confused by this passage, because I feel like you're agreeing with me here and yet clearly you deeply disagree with me.

[Lorileah]

Yeah, we're done here. it has become redundant