"Are you a woman!"

[ChristinaK]

I went into a truck stop ladies room today while travelling en femme. I was complete except I didn't wear a wig since it was very hot. My hair is halfway down my ears and have long bangs. It was styled very feminine and I have been to the ladies room at least 10 times in the last 2weeks like that with no problems, until today.

As I stepped out of a stall, a woman was speaking to her toddler at the sink. I avoided looking at her and washed my hands, then turned 90 degrees to the left, with my back to her, to dry my hands under a loud dryer.

As the dryer wound down, I heard her ask forcefully and loudly, "are you a woman?"

At first, it didn't register that she was speaking to me. Then it hit me hard as I turned left again to take 3 steps to the door, with my back still to her as she continued to stand at the sink.

I ignored her and tried to maintain my composure as I exited in what I hoped was a normal fashion. I was very afraid that when she came out she would confront me, but I filled my soft drink and stood in a long line to pay and she never appeared.

I went to the restroom 4 times today and even had to stand in line once. No problems at all, except that one time. So, I just wanted to pass that on. It can happen at any time even if we've had much success in the past. I feel very fortunate that the event did not turn into a huge confrontation, even though we're supposed to be protected in California. The question is, if the public is not aware of that, are we really protected?

[gabyespinotv]

Well...you're not a woman. Just because i feel like a fish doesn't mean i can live underwater, get real.

[reb.femme]

Always great when someone offers a positive contribution Gabyespinotv.

We use the toilets, restroom whatever, in the gender we are presenting as. To do otherwise could bring on a little bit more than a challenge.

Sadly, laws are not properly known by many of us, so always difficult expecting the law to defend us. How many people have we heard in life state, "I know my rights"? Normally as they're being hauled away by the Old Bill in Britain :devil:

Personally Christina, you did the right thing and you kept your dignity whilst displaying good grace. Not sure I could have done the same. A little volatile at times. :heehee:

Becky

[Mollyanne]

You not only did the right thing but you did it with dignity and pose. That woman sure as hell didn't show any class.

Molly

[Kate Simmons]

I probably would have said to her: "Are you?" :)

[alwayshave]

The correct retort may have been, "I'm a lady, it is certain you are not."

[rachael.davis]

nicely handled in a no win situation.

A few years ago I was shopping and had some morbidly obese slovenly woman announce in a loud voice "hey mister you're in the ladies section, you need to be in the faggots section"
I froze, an elderly nicely dress lady said "Excuse me, but if this is the ladies section, there isn't anything here for you" she had a voice and accent that should be italicized.
she smiled to me, the largish lady ran for it.
angels show up every now and then

[ChristinaK]

Racael, I love your story, what a superb ending!

[Rachael Leigh]

Christina the bathroom thing for sure is a concern for many of us and your situation is one we all hope does not happen.
You handled it nicely and well I hope we as a country realize that there are more important issues than who's using what bathroom. It's made our community out to be a target or a bigger one then it was. I actually think most people don't care.
Glad it all worked out

[prabha]

Brave girl you did the right thing,
You didn't panic and you didn't argued but most of the CDs will panic and create a situation.
It means you are not only a beautiful lady but also clever
Hugs

[Ceera]

Ignoring her was probably the best tactic. After all, what would most genetic girls have done in that situation? Probably would have assumed the person couldn't possibly be addressing them, and walked away.

[Alice Torn]

Rachel is right. Answering her would have caused a no win situation. Saying nothing is the wiser thing. I hope i have the self control to do so if ever in a similar situation. Now, is a number of GGs all confront one of us at once, a bit more intense! Being silent still woujld likely be best. I went to use a single use mens room at a small town convenience store, and it was busy, so i knocked on the single use womens room, and it was vacant, so i went in, did my business, and came out, only to have two teen boys tell me i was using the wrong room!! I just said, "when you gotta go, you gotta go."

[Alexa CD]

Well there's nothing you could have said really. I'm sure if I was her I would have asked myself and probably you the same question, she's in the woman's bathroom with her little girl. The woman's bathroom is for women.

[docrobbysherry]

For those of us that can't pass, any foray into vanilla land can result in being confronted and embarrassed. :doh:

It's NOT fun sometimes out there, but that comes with the territory!:straightface:

[Pat]

Rachel is right. Answering her would have caused a no win situation. Saying nothing is the wiser thing.

Wasn't it Benjamin Franklin who said, "It's better to be thought trans than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"? ;)

[I Am Paula]

As for 'Having rights', that will not stop her husbands big, hairy fist hitting you.

[Tracii G]

Well...you're not a woman. Just because i feel like a fish doesn't mean i can live underwater, get real.

Oh my I think I just had a get real moment.

[ReineD]

I went to the restroom 4 times today and even had to stand in line once. No problems at all, except that one time.

Right. Statistics. Most people won't bother with you but a few will. Just be careful not to take "the few" and translate them in your mind to "everybody".

It wasn't too many years ago when there was NO tolerance for males dressed as females in public. In some places, they were even arrested for public indecency. We've come a long way since then, there are laws in place, insurance companies pay for SRS, large companies have HR policies in place to facilitate transition, and knowledge that gender is not necessarily black/white has reached the mainstream even if some people still disapprove. And bathrooms are particularly contentious right now with what is going on in North Carolina. Would this lady have asked you the same question, had she seen you sitting in the middle of the food court? Would she have asked you the question had she not had a young child in tow? It will continue to get better, but we can hardly expect everyone in our society to magically get on board seemingly overnight, especially when it comes to spaces that have traditionally been designated for GGs.

Look at how long it took for GGs to reach parity in the workforce, and even then we're still not fully there. Look at how long it took for Civil Rights, and there still are pockets of people in this country who are racially biased.

I'm glad that you went to the bathroom 4 times that day and even stood in line, without any issues. :)

[Lorileah]

Well...you're not a woman. Just because i feel like a fish doesn't mean i can live underwater, get real.

mean and wrong. really? woman does not mean genetic female.

[Rhonda Jean]

I would have skipped washing my hands.

I've been using the ladies room for over 40 years. Never liked to have to do it, but that's the way it is. I'm more averse to it now than I've ever been! I think people are looking for us and I think everybody has a prepared response. It's not only in the restroom. I certainly get the vibe that people are looking for us, and I think people are looking closer. There was a time when people would have had a brief encounter with me and not known how to react until the encounter was long over with. Now they already know how they're going to react and are itching for the opportunity to use their prepared reaction.

[Jenniferathome]

... Just because i feel like a fish doesn't mean i can live underwater...

You feel like a fish? What's that like?

And while a witty quip might seem like a good idea, the best reply is, "Have a nice day," while you exit.

[Linda E. Woodworth]

The one thing that jumped out at me on this one was the point that she was with a toddler. I firmly believe that there is nothing as fearsome on this earth as a Mother protecting their young.

Ask yourself, did she feel threatened and was acting to protect her young?

[Alexa CD]

mean and wrong. really? woman does not mean genetic female.

I'm really not trying to throw shade here but for the vast majority of people that is exactly what it means, for the most part expecting people to just adapt to and adopt this concept is like asking (demanding) them to perform backflips. Mean and wrong and well they shouldn't is the world we live in.

[Zooey]

mean and wrong. really? woman does not mean genetic female.

Agreed, but woman does mean woman. If you're a male identified CD, then I think it's a fair point.

[Tina_gm]

Yay for the bathroom bills, which are likely to cause more and more of this type of reaction. It is the intention of these bills I believe, to create a more unfriendly environment. Not saying it wouldn't have or hasn't happened in the past, but it will be and has shown to be on a quick rise.

[Pat]

expecting people to just adapt to and adopt this concept is like asking (demanding) them to perform backflips.

Some days I feel like I must be the oldest person on the planet. Does no one else remember the lingering resentment when segregation was set aside? It smoldered for years but people gradually got over it because it was in their best interests to get over it and now the very idea of segregation sets people's teeth on edge. This isn't a back-flip -- this is just something that needs some time to become the new normal. TG people aren't "men in the women's room" they're TG people in the women's room (where they belong.)

[nothingclever]

The woman was just a jerk who is teaching her daughter to be the same. I highly doubt seeing a person washing their hands in a public restroom created a threatening environment. If I had found myself in that situation when my daughters were toddlers, my biggest fear would have been that one of my them would have realized that the person was male and would have blurted something out....I still feel horrible about the time my youngest saw a dwarf in a grocery store....
I strongly disagree that this woman was protecting her child. I think she sounds like a person who will take any opportunity she can get to make other people feel uncomfortable and justify her behavior to anyone who will listen under a veil of morality, religion, popular opinion among her peers, etc....
I think you did the right thing. The exact right thing. You didn't give her the satisfaction of a big scene. Which I would bet money was what she wanted.

[PaulaQ]

Agreed, but woman does mean woman. If you're a male identified CD, then I think it's a fair point.

Yes, but without an epistemological discussion of the matter - a weighty thing to undertake while waiting to pee - how does one distinguish one from the other save by passability. That is not an approach that keeps any of us safe, including cisgender women. Because not all cis women pass all that well. And if we go by looks, or by documentation, then how do new trans women, just starting out, ever go fulltime? It could easily become a catch-22 unless you are one of the lucky few who passes fairly well without HRT. What about those who'll never pass? And if we can't go fulltime without passing well, then how do we show enough time lived as a woman to qualify for documentation changes.

The people who don't want us in bathrooms are only going to be satisfied if we are completely invisible, from the day we first present as women to the day we die. That is not a fair standard - few of us would make it. (Some of them won't be satisfied with that - they really do want us to not exist at all.)

@nothingclever - some use feminism, 2nd wave radical feminism specifically, to justify bigotry against us. Just FYI.

[tbryant2k16]

Now what if she asked that to a real female, one that was born female? How would they suddenly react to being ask that question? And since GG's are already being questioned and being forced out of a woman's restrooms, it's probably already happening. And in a time when even females are not conforming to what many call a typical female.

[ReineD]

I would have said, "Yes I am. And you?", smiled, turned, and left.

On the idea that females don't conform, I find this hard to believe. Walk into any busy mall, any busy airport, train station, etc, where there are thousands of females and you might find fewer than 5 whom you cannot tell are female ... and these would be the few women who make a concerted effort to look butch, but even then it is apparent to most of us that they are indeed female. If members here find it difficult to gender people, then I wonder if they might not have the ability to look at people like the rest of us.

[Zooey]

Yes, but without an epistemological discussion of the matter - a weighty thing to undertake while waiting to pee - how does one distinguish one from the other save by passability. That is not an approach that keeps any of us safe, including cisgender women. Because not all cis women pass all that well. And if we go by looks, or by documentation, then how do new trans women, just starting out, ever go fulltime? It could easily become a catch-22 unless you are one of the lucky few who passes fairly well without HRT. What about those who'll never pass? And if we can't go fulltime without passing well, then how do we show enough time lived as a woman to qualify for documentation changes.

In my view, there are two parts to this.

1) The part where somebody challenges your right to be in a space (leering, staring, saying things, etc.)
2) The part where the situation resolves (nothing happens, somebody is ejected, taken to jail, etc.)

I view the first part as a social issue that will take time, no matter what legislation we pass, and so I see it - for the moment - as immutable.

The question then, is who has the RIGHT to be in women's spaces? Meaning, when part 2 comes to involve some kind of authority, what ends up happening and why. I think that trans men and women should be protected, regardless of appearance. I think that we need to come up with a strategy and a standard so that men and women who are not yet able to get identification changes done (which should be easier than it is) are protected.

I also think that CDs will benefit from this, because as you say, it's hard to tell the difference in many cases. When there's a perfectly reasonable and verifiable situation that explains a situation, law enforcement are that much less likely to care, and other people are (over time) less likely to assume the worst.

If somebody tells me they're "gender fluid", "bi-gender", or anything else that ultimately gives them some claim to womanhood, I'll simply say that I don't get it and have my doubts, but I'm not going to fight them on it if we have some sort of standard (e.g. medical/psychiatric approval). If they are a person who clearly and definitively (and often defensively) identifies as a man, however, I'm not going to say that they should have the right to access the women's facilities. I have a rather expanded view on what can constitute being a woman, but I also believe that being a man is, in the majority of cases, a mutually exclusive condition.

I have no problem, for the most part, with CD men getting away with it most or all of the time, but that's different from having the right. If they want to start telling me they're not really men, then there's a conversation to be had.

[gabyespinotv]

If you are a transexual...then use the women's bathroom..but if you are a crossdresser...ffs...don't be such a wimp- it's a fetish, you are a man who enjoy dressing like a female, you are not a woman. Seriously, this is so stupid.

[PaulaQ]

Walk into any busy mall, any busy airport, train station, etc, where there are thousands of females and you might find fewer than 5 whom you cannot tell are female ... and these would be the few women who make a concerted effort to look butch, but even then it is apparent to most of us that they are indeed female.

Snarky comment about not being able to gender women correctly aside, no, there aren't very many cisgender women who have trouble passing - but there are some. There aren't very many of us either though, passing or not:
1. Women with serious PCOS - some of them are fairly masculinized with significant facial hair.
2. Breast cancer survivors who've had double mastectomies and don't use prosthetics
3. Androgynous women whose slender bodies and short haircuts aren't really butch, but people question them, especially if they are tall
4. Taller women - there are girls who are taller than 6' 2". I watched one get accused of being trans at a city council meeting. She wasn't trans though.
5. Intersex women - there are conditions that can leave women somewhat masculinized.
6. Butch lesbians - or simply masculine straight women.

There are other examples, and I'm not saying that I have trouble telling the difference - I'm talking about people who really don't understand what trans people are, what we look like, and how to spot us, when you can actually spot us. I think that neither I, nor any of the members of the forum are likely to point out someone who might not pass in a women's room. I mean, c'mon. :)

Basically, if you set the standard for what a woman should look like to be whatever some random person thinks a woman looks like, you are going to have problems, because some small percentage of cisgender women are going to get called out by some people. It is probably more likely to happen if said people have been whipped up to where they see a trans person in every bathroom stall because of a witch hunt.

The vast majority of women will basically pass all the time, without issue. But there have already been reported cases where cisgender women are misidentified as trans when they are in a restroom, or other public place. I can post links, if that's necessary, but these things aren't hard to find, and while they may be rare, they happen, and they spotlight the danger of sending out peasants with torches. :)

I do apologize if my comment was misconstrued to be about all women, or even any of the cisgender women on this forum. I haven't seen any photos here that I thought would ever be at risk of this. But it has happened at least a couple of times around Dallas, and in some other places as well. I'm sure more of them happen than are reported, because I can't imagine how mortifying that must be - to be accused of not being a woman. Oh wait a second, I actually *do* know what that's like! Anyway, it sucks. I personally think that some poor woman with a hormonal condition doesn't deserve the grief I get. Heck, I don't think *I* deserve the grief I get, but it just breaks my heart for unlucky cisgender women who face this once in a while. I do really mean that sincerely, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but it really does happen to some women, and I think it's just horrible. Random bathroom occupants need to stop acting as the "potty police".

Is the reason to argue about this? Surely if we can agree that cisgender women shouldn't have to worry about the humiliation of getting called out as being trans in a restroom because they have an unusual appearance for reasons that may be totally beyond their control, and because the person calling them out is an idiot? Seriously, I can post links if you don't believe this is a thing that can happen!

[Teresa]

I'm just glad the UK isn't wasting their time on bathroom issues, we have far too much trivial nonsense to contend with from the EU !

In many parts of Europe they use the same bathroom/toilet, I find it disconcerting standing at the open urinals with women and children walking by .

One aspect I can't get use to is women cleaning male toilets, I was standing in an open male urinal when suddenly a mop was brushed against my feet, I turned to find a young woman busily cleaning the floor, it felt totally wrong , I felt like a flasher and quickly zipped up and left .

Maybe a GG can tell us if they've seen a male cleaner in female toilets .

I have to agree with the reply that the lady who made the remark may have been protective of the child, taking the point further she may have been well within her rights if the child had been approached by a stranger previously. We should look for other possibilities when people apparently overreact .

[tbryant2k16]

nicely handled in a no win situation.

A few years ago I was shopping and had some morbidly obese slovenly woman announce in a loud voice "hey mister you're in the ladies section, you need to be in the faggots section"
I froze, an elderly nicely dress lady said "Excuse me, but if this is the ladies section, there isn't anything here for you" she had a voice and accent that should be italicized.
she smiled to me, the largish lady ran for it.
angels show up every now and then

Now if a man told a woman that when she was in the Men's section, the man would probably have a black eye and charged with causing a disturbance some how.

- - - Updated - - -


Snarky comment about not being able to gender women correctly aside, no, there aren't very many cisgender women who have trouble passing - but there are some. There aren't very many of us either though, passing or not:
1. Women with serious PCOS - some of them are fairly masculinized with significant facial hair.
2. Breast cancer survivors who've had double mastectomies and don't use prosthetics
3. Androgynous women whose slender bodies and short haircuts aren't really butch, but people question them, especially if they are tall
4. Taller women - there are girls who are taller than 6' 2". I watched one get accused of being trans at a city council meeting. She wasn't trans though.
5. Intersex women - there are conditions that can leave women somewhat masculinized.
6. Butch lesbians - or simply masculine straight women.

There are other examples, and I'm not saying that I have trouble telling the difference - I'm talking about people who really don't understand what trans people are, what we look like, and how to spot us, when you can actually spot us. I think that neither I, nor any of the members of the forum are likely to point out someone who might not pass in a women's room. I mean, c'mon. :)

Basically, if you set the standard for what a woman should look like to be whatever some random person thinks a woman looks like, you are going to have problems, because some small percentage of cisgender women are going to get called out by some people. It is probably more likely to happen if said people have been whipped up to where they see a trans person in every bathroom stall because of a witch hunt.

The vast majority of women will basically pass all the time, without issue. But there have already been reported cases where cisgender women are misidentified as trans when they are in a restroom, or other public place. I can post links, if that's necessary, but these things aren't hard to find, and while they may be rare, they happen, and they spotlight the danger of sending out peasants with torches. :)

I do apologize if my comment was misconstrued to be about all women, or even any of the cisgender women on this forum. I haven't seen any photos here that I thought would ever be at risk of this. But it has happened at least a couple of times around Dallas, and in some other places as well. I'm sure more of them happen than are reported, because I can't imagine how mortifying that must be - to be accused of not being a woman. Oh wait a second, I actually *do* know what that's like! Anyway, it sucks. I personally think that some poor woman with a hormonal condition doesn't deserve the grief I get. Heck, I don't think *I* deserve the grief I get, but it just breaks my heart for unlucky cisgender women who face this once in a while. I do really mean that sincerely, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but it really does happen to some women, and I think it's just horrible. Random bathroom occupants need to stop acting as the "potty police".

Is the reason to argue about this? Surely if we can agree that cisgender women shouldn't have to worry about the humiliation of getting called out as being trans in a restroom because they have an unusual appearance for reasons that may be totally beyond their control, and because the person calling them out is an idiot? Seriously, I can post links if you don't believe this is a thing that can happen!

That's the thing, there is no standard for what a female looks like. But now people are starting to say unless you look a certain way according to them they will question you and even go as far as call the police on you. And there are lot's of cisgender women that you hear of now being question as if they are transgender.

[nothingclever]

Seriously, using a restroom to urinate and then wash and dry your hands, interacting with no one else, does not warrant a demand to know someone's gender. If the CDer in question is presenting as a female, is behaving like a sane and, thankfully hygienic, person there is no reason to fear for your child's life. I don't know this person, but her behavior is incongruent with someone concerned with her daughter's safety. If she truly were concerned, why would she initiate a confrontation with someone minding their own business? If the CDer were acting hostile or doing something suspicious, that argument would make a lot more sense. Righteous indignation is not an excuse for rudeness.

[Vickie_CDTV]

You did the right thing, worst thing you could have done is respond to her.

Children in the ladies room is a minefield. If there are children (including teenagers), I won't use it, personally. I'd rather use the men's room and get a few humorous looks than deal with an angry mom with her claws out.

[wanda66]

You use the toilet in the privacy of a stall what is the problem ...are we that special or should I say politically correct .
it's no more than a lot of BS about nothing, we have many other more important things to worry about other than where we pee !

[nothingclever]

I think people are overestimating the average woman's fear of trans people. And again, if this woman were truly protecting her young daughter, why would she INSTIGATE a confrontation with someone who was clearly minding their own business? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Jenniferathome]

...I think that trans men and women should be protected, regardless of appearance. I think that we need to come up with a strategy and a standard so that men and women who are not yet able to get identification changes done (which should be easier than it is) are protected....

Zooey, you are suggesting a fantasy world. We, here, will all be long dead before something like this would happen, BUT... let's pretend this was a thing that was real. By the time the pee police show up, everyone is long gone. It's simply impractical. Unisex restrooms will happen long before "Pee IDs."


Right. Statistics. Most people won't bother with you but a few will. Just be careful not to take "the few" and translate them in your mind to "everybody"...

THIS!!!!


If you are a transexual...then use the women's bathroom..but if you are a crossdresser...ffs...don't be such a wimp- it's a fetish, you are a man who enjoy dressing like a female, you are not a woman. Seriously, this is so stupid.

No question you would know from stupid. And you are demonstrating yours profoundly. Just FYI, if cross dressing is a fetish for you fine. It is not for most.

[Alexa CD]

I don't really understand why people have to use the bathroom while out in town or wherever in the first place. I never do even if I'm out for hours, just go before you leave home, or find a unisex bathroom, a disabled bathroom or a family one, it's not hard, there should be no issue.

I find this whole debate is incredibly selfish and self centred at the expense of others. People need to stop creating this issue by demanding things from other people like this, it's not the same as ending segregation. Alot of the time it's straight men with wives and kids who want to use the women's bathroom, that is absurd. People just need to get over themselves. If all the regular people just want to get on with there lives and don't want genetically male people in the women's bathroom with them or their kids or their little sister or whoever just respect that. You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.

[PaulaQ]

BUT... let's pretend this was a thing that was real. By the time the pee police show up, everyone is long gone. It's simply impractical. Unisex restrooms will happen long before "Pee IDs."


Historically this hasn't been true. Everybody in the trans community I knew in Oklahoma had been harassed by law enforcement in a bathroom. Here's an example - you stop at a truck stop bathroom. State trooper sees you walk in, and goes in after you to check your ID. Sometimes the police stop in for a bathroom break.

The bigger issue is people taking the law into their hands.

Honestly, anyone with a driver's license with the correct photo and gender marker would get a pass from a LEO - no probable cause to take them in, ticket them, etc. What they are more likely to try instead of a pee ID is to make gender marker / ID changes more difficult in some states.

Honestly any kind of documentation check for restroom access is a big loss for us all.


You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.

I know trans kids who aren't able to use the restroom all day in school because the only gender neutral restroom is so far from their classes that they don't have time to use it.

I have a friend who drives a truck. She's out 12-13 hours at a stretch, several days in a row. Not everyplace she stops has a gender neutral bathroom. What's she supposed to do?

Not every place I go has a gender neutral bathroom. Sometimes I'm out all day, and not all of us have your bladder capacity.

How is it selfish to want a safe place to pee? Do I look like I should be using the men's restroom?

I think it is pretty selfish for cisgender people to put their discomfort and bigotry ahead of our ability to have a tiny modicum of public dignity.

[ChristinaK]

I just wanted to clarify a few things.

1. I was on a long trip, am middle aged with a small bladder. No choice on using a bathroom unless I go in a bottle (not).
2. Even if a person is a CD versus TG, using the men's room in the US would be dangerous beyond belief in most locales.
3. I could not avoid the woman as I had already waited before exiting the stall until the woman's friend left to leave after a conversation they had at length about drinking the night before and how one had sneaked rye into her husbands beer to make him pass out so she could have fun without him.
4. I totally understand how a woman would be freaked out and afraid upon discovering some weird dude is dressed as a woman exiting a stall. I just don't want to be the subject of that anxiety and would hope that the woman in question would have the circumspection to wait and see what transpired with the TG, such as washing her hands and leaving like any other woman.
5. Regardless of the law, muggles will not understand. It is beyond most peoples imaginations to consider us equals, to wit, my sister wishing a TG to be dead rather than be subjected to looking at her.
6. In my lifetime, we will always be at risk simply needing to use the frikkin bathroom, whether we have the balls to use the men's room, or try to pass in the women's.
7. I don't judge muggles for the way they feel, it is a natural inclination. We have to accept that we run against the natural grain of society and the burden is on us, not society, to deal with the possible consequences.

- - - Updated - - -

I forgot. One person said they do not use the ladies room if there are little girls or teenagers present. How do you know until you open the door and walk in?

2 weeks ago I was presented with that dilemma when I entered to find a line, with 2 teenagers in front of me with Momma in front of them. To turn and walk out would have been suspicious. I was scared, but nothing at all happened. Sometimes we cannot control events, they develop.

[PaulaQ]

We have to accept that we run against the natural grain of society and the burden is on us, not society, to deal with the possible consequences.

Why should we accept this? We are the victims of a cruel and abusive society. Why should we be expected to deal with it - more to the point how could that even work. Why then should we expect any rights at all, and simply accept that they don't like us, don't really think of us as human beings, and that they could murder us on sight if they are so inclined? Why expect anything from them?

No advances in civil rights have ever come from the minority group "dealing with it," is accepting the status quo.

[ChristinaK]

Paula, I do not disagree with the fight, I just pointed out that we run contrary to most people's basic instincts regarding gender identity. We may win court cases, we may establish laws, but we cannot change people's base, internal paradigms regarding what is normal and what is not.

I hope I am proved wrong :-)

[gabyespinotv]

Actually jeniffer..crossdressing IS a fetish. Unless you are a transgendered person with a female body chemistry, you're just a dude who wear panties and dresses because your brain likes it. Lie to yourself as much as you want to, but what i'm saying is a fact.

[Zooey]

Honestly, anyone with a driver's license with the correct photo and gender marker would get a pass from a LEO - no probable cause to take them in, ticket them, etc. What they are more likely to try instead of a pee ID is to make gender marker / ID changes more difficult in some states. Honestly any kind of documentation check for restroom access is a big loss for us all.

I agree with much of that, which is why I think the more productive battle is pushing for a federal ruling that standardizes government-recognized gender changes and the requirements of them. If every state applied the SSA/passport requirements, or accepted an updated passport as ample proof for documentation changes, we would be (IMO) in a pretty reasonable place.


How is it selfish to want a safe place to pee? Do I look like I should be using the men's restroom?.

No, you don't. But even if you did, you're a woman, and so you should be in the women's room. I'm talking about male-identified people. They're men, by way of self-identification.

I've said it before, and I will say it again. I am WAY MORE COMFORTABLE with eliminating gendered restrooms than I am with legislating the rights of men to access women's spaces. Sign me up for the gender neutral bathrooms battle, but I'm not interested in dismantling the value of gender and gender-segregated spaces as a rule.

[PaulaQ]

@Zoey - yes, I understand what you mean about gendered restrooms. Although no one talks about it yet, non-binary people / GNC people may not feel comfortable in either restroom.

I am not a fan of gender segregated spaces, but there are situations where they are needed. I think locker rooms are a particularly difficult area. I can't imagine using a public locker room / shower pre-op. I used to have nightmares about that. My suspicion is that before trans people and cis people are going to be comfortable sharing such a space, in general, some structural changes would have to be added for privacy.

[Marcelle]

Sorry I don't want to derail this thread but I have to speak to this silly comment . . .



. . . You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.

Seriously????

So when the majority decides it's okay to discriminate against trans folk, deny them employment, a place to live the right to be who they are I as a trans woman should just suck it up. If I don't I am being self centered at the expense of this hard done by majority. :facepalm:

Try living this 24/7 and then come and talk to me about sucking it up, being self centered and whatnot.

Marcelle

[jessica33]

I would have skipped washing my hands.

I've been using the ladies room for over 40 years. Never liked to have to do it, but that's the way it is. I'm more averse to it now than I've ever been! I think people are looking for us and I think everybody has a prepared response. It's not only in the restroom. I certainly get the vibe that people are looking for us, and I think people are looking closer. There was a time when people would have had a brief encounter with me and not known how to react until the encounter was long over with. Now they already know how they're going to react and are itching for the opportunity to use their prepared reaction.
You are right about people are looking for us and ready to use their prepared reaction . With transgender issue in the news these days , specially the bathroom issue. people are more aware of us then before . My gut feelings is people are less tolerance of us then few years ago .

[Eva Bella]

You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.

I just need to point this out as completely incorrect - both morally and legally.

When it comes to issues of discrimination, our laws have systems to prevent the oppression of minorities - even it it takes a long time for them to materialize. Through your logic, the "loud" minority of African Americans would still be redlined from certain employment and living - and kept on the back of the bus. Women would not be able to votes. Gays would not be able to marry.

The very notion of a protected class is to give special protections to an otherwise embattled minority group. And the "bathroom bill" stemmed from the drive to make Transgender/Transsexual folk an additional protected class. Which - given the high levels of suicide and discrimination - they clearly should be.

Excuse me for getting political for a second, but this Bathroom Bill is pure pandering from the Conservative Right. On one hand, these relentlessly pro-big business and pro-finance politicians completely sold off the future of their constituents. It's no wonder that these people are angry. Clothes are cheap as dirt and smart phones do all sorts of wonderful things, but they can no longer afford the true essentials of home ownership, health care, child care, and retirement.

But understanding economics is not easy. Disliking Transgender folk and undocumented immigrants and legal abortions is very easy. The Conservative Right drums up support on these social and religious issues which have no real impact on the lives of their constituents., and then turn around and screw all of them financially.

And of course the Democrats have their own creative ways of screwing everyone financially, but at least they don't have to further oppress poor and aggrieved minority groups to do it.

I've now been going out in public for about three months, and I always use the Ladies room. Admittedly, I've only done this in NYC and Boston, so I'm facing a different dynamic. If you look at my photos, you'll see that there's no way that I'm passing as a GG. I've lived for 37 years so far, and I have yet to see a woman with 17" arms and 5" heels strutting around a normal bar. It's very clear that I'm a genetic man dressed like a woman. And I could certainly appear physically imposing and intimidating just based on my size.

But I believe that your attitude in these cases is paramount. If I'm nervous, I try to imagine "What would RuPaul Do?" RuPaul would walk in that room and own it. She would have a snappy, confident comeback to that person. She'd smile in the mirror and check her makeup. Being confident - I believe - can relax the people around you, as you look wrapped up in your own tasks. Looking sneaky or ashamed will probably spark more fear and apprehension.

[Stephanie47]

During the current "debate" of the bathroom bills there is going to more of those comments. You may be protected by law in certain states, California and Washington included, but, law does not confer individual acceptance. She was obviously letting you know her feelings on this issue. Most people are ignorant of the law as well as the entire issue of transgender men and women, and, really, they want to remain ignorant. And, at a rest stop on a heavily traveled Interstate, you really do not know where she was from. She could have been from one of those bastions of ignorance.

You handled it well.

[Alexa CD]

I want to reply to everyone who has quoted me and I have a lot to say. Some of you need serious reality checks, I would love to hand them out too believe me. I won't bother to write or explain why I won't reply because I don't think I'm allowed to, and it's not like what I say will actually be considered anyway so there's little to no point.

[Zooey]

Eva Bella, while I understand your sentiment it's worth pointing out that RuPaul identifies as a gay man, and despite what you might assume, he's not actually much of a friend to the transgender community.

[JasmeVee]

Oh you fetishists, thou art judged

[Teresa]

Gabyespinotv,
I will repeat what Jennifer said , if you choose to think it's just a fetish that's fine but you can't speak for all of us. Being born with different wiring has no connection with being a fetish, counselling for me also discounted it .
I can't say 100% that I'm not TS but I do know I have GD and I'm bi-gender. I don't make these labels up to lie to myself it's part of me and dressing fulfils those needs. It's not a case of our brain liking it, it's finding an inner peace, FACT !!

[Eva Bella]

Eva Bella, while I understand your sentiment it's worth pointing out that RuPaul identifies as a gay man, and despite what you might assume, he's not actually much of a friend to the transgender community.

Huh, well I'm honestly not so sure about that. I know that there was a flare up over his use of the word "Tranny," and I could see how some might take offense that he trivializes the idea of transgender people. I can only speak for myself on this, but I'm personally grateful for people like him and Caitlin Jenner. They are high-visibility celebrities who - I feel - make great strides in normalizing our community. Bruce Jenner became a woman and the world didn't end. RuPaul's show is extremely popular, fun, and light hearted.

And at least in my neck of the woods, most of us are using the word "Tranny" to describe each other, as a sort of term of endearment. Just like RuPaul described.

Although I see how others would view him in a negative light, and I get that. I do believe that he would OWN that bathroom visit and be fierce and confident inside there. I definitely try to channel some of his attitude if I'm going into a new place or I'm feeling apprehensive.

[samantha rogers]

Fetishist? lol

I might be offended save that the remark betrays an ignorance to be pitied.

[Helen_Highwater]

I posted a while ago about waiting outside a "pay to pee" public toilet while enfemme. You know, the sort with the sliding door. In front of me was a mom with her young daughter fumbling in her purse for the right change. Anyway I had spare so I offered her the correct coinage, she offered what coins she had but I refused saying I knew what it was like when your kids need to go.

She looked at her little girl and said, " Thank the nice lady for being so kind". The little girl was a bit bemused looking at me but it does go to prove that there are decent people out there.

[ReineD]

Just FYI, if cross dressing is a fetish for you fine. It is not for most.

I agree with you there appears to be very few fetishists on crossdressers.com and this is likely because the site rules prohibit explicit sex talk. But, you cannot deny there are millions of CD sites that cater specifically to fetish: the porn sites, the yahoo and other groups, the fetish wear, the meet-up sites, etc. I think that of all birth-males who do wear items of women's clothing, the vast majority are indeed fetishists. They just don't happen to hang out here.

[Eva Bella]

I agree with you there appears to be very few fetishists on crossdressers.com and this is likely because the site rules prohibit explicit sex talk. But, you cannot deny there are millions of CD sites that cater specifically to fetish: the porn sites, the yahoo and other groups, the fetish wear, the meet-up sites, etc. I think that of all birth-males who do wear items of women's clothing, the vast majority are indeed fetishists. They just don't happen to hang out here.

Really? I'm honestly asking, as I haven't encountered anyone like this yet, but it could be the places that I'm hanging out (mostly CD/TG events and gay bars).

There's definitely a small community of gay guys who dress as women to specifically entice straight men into sleeping with them. And you've got the Lolita/Sissy crowd that's absolutely a fetish. But the vast majority of men in women's clothes that I've met are either straight guys on the trans-spectrum or actual transexuals. But I've only been in the scene for a few months, and only in the NYC area, so I understand that it could be a different scenario elsewhere.

[ReineD]

Eva, just google "crossdresser" and "sex". Count how many websites pop up. Scroll down the list of websites to note what type they are. Or if you prefer, just google "crossdresser" alone and get past page 5 or so in the google search results.

There are tons of men who wear items of women's clothing for just sexual thrills and no other reasons, way more than post in this forum on a regular basis.

[samantha rogers]

Reine, while I would agree that there is a sexual aspect to this for many, I would guess your method of arriving at your conclusion to be flawed. I work in SEO and am very familiar with how google locates results based on searches ( by the way I found a non sex related result at the bottom of page three LOL).
Methodology for search engine optimization is based on many complicated formulas, but all the sites you find when searching "crossdresser sex" are porn sites which have a vested interest in placing high in search results and so are without doubt actively at work feeding info into their sites to do so. However, to assume that these results indicate the conclusion that most CD are sexually motivated would not be logical. My guess is that the majority of people seeking out these sites are otherwise heterosexual males (and females ...you might be surprised lol) seeking porn about CDS and TS rather than TG themselves. There are a LOT of seemingly "straight" guys out there secretly fascinated by TG women. A LOT. I could show you the messages I get every day on Facebook to prove it. And that without even mentioning the results of an experimental week I had with a profile posted on okcupid. Sheesh.
But again...the vast majority of these "hits" were from seemingly straight males and so I think it fair to assume the results of your search only prove there is a LOT of interest in porn about TG but do not prove anything about the number of sexually motivated TG.
But that is not to say they don't exist. Of course they do and most all of us know they do.
I had a great discussion wth a friend once about the perhaps conflicting narratives that motivate TG...one being identity driven and the other sex driven. I am not certain there is a strong dividing line between the two. Just as I feel there is a spectrum in human beings for gender rather than a binary (gender is not black and white), and just as I feel there is a similar spectrum for sexual orientation, I also feel there is a spectrum motivating gender expression that ranges from the sexually driven to the identity driven. And a spectrum on which individuals may start in one place and end in another. The narrative can and often does change, just as sexual orientation can also (and often does) shift with transition.
Complicating that spectrum is the play of testosterone and the age at which cis males transition. Often, by the time gender expression reaches a boiling point it occurs in a cis males life cycle when testosterone levels are high and motivate an equally high libido. There can be and often is a confusion that occurs between the relief of dysphoria that expression of identity brings and the euphoria that arises from that relief, versus the sexual arousal that sometimes accompanies euphoria. They are not the same thing but it may not be easy for an individual to mentally separate the two. Not, at least, until the passage of time and a growing familiarity with "dressing" remove aspects of that initial relief driven euphoria replacing them with calmness and a growing realization of identity as being the primary motivator.

What I'm saying is that the statement "There are tons of men who wear items of women's clothing for just sexual thrills and no other reason" is in many ways a gross and unfair oversimplification of the subject.

Carl Sagan once observed that the human brain is the single most complicated object in the known universe. He was right and we are a long way from understanding how it works. H.L. Mencken once observed that "...for every complicated problem there is a simple answer...and it's wrong". He was right, too... don't you think?

Oh, and BTW, I kind of think that there is also some confusion among many about gender and sexuality. Ones gender expression may be fully driven by identity without that precluding a healthy interest in sexuality. I sometimes feel as though to be accepted on this site, TG must somehow prove themselves almost asexual in order to "prove" they are pure and motivated only by identity and not sexuality. It is entirely possible and quite healthy for the "purest" identity driven TG to still maintain and desire a natural sex life... isn't it? :battingeyelashes:

[Jenniferathome]

I agree with you there appears to be very few fetishists on crossdressers.com and this is likely because the site rules prohibit explicit sex talk. But, you cannot deny there are millions of CD sites that cater specifically to fetish: the porn sites, the yahoo and other groups, the fetish wear, the meet-up sites, etc. I think that of all birth-males who do wear items of women's clothing, the vast majority are indeed fetishists. They just don't happen to hang out here.



...
Methodology for search engine optimization is based on many complicated formulas, but all the sites you find when searching "crossdresser sex" are porn sites...

May be. We'll never know. But thank goodness Samantha jumped in with the SEO angle because I was headed there.

So, a vanilla cross dresser, looking for this site, for example, will be hit will millions of porn sites because those sites added "cross dresser" to their keyword hit list. I am skewed by my half full glass mentality and sure hope you're wrong Reine.

[Michala]

I have been out dressed very limited so have never had to use a restroom. With all the publicity it seems to me that what was never a problem for many has suddenly become the latest waste of time for legislators. Hopefully it will soon pass and some other non-issue will take it's place. On the flip side, how is this going to affect some of the masculine women. Real women who look masculine. How are they going to feel when confronted? What will happen to the clothing police the first time they require a woman to prove she's a woman? And in today's world of equal rights if a sex policeman is placed at the entrance of every woman's bathroom in the interest of fairness one must also be placed at all men's bathrooms. Perhaps an answer for the shortage of jobs. How many sex checkers will the US need to have someone placed at each entrance. Enough already, let's move on people of the US to things that really matter.

Then again I get kind of a kick out of making someone look very foolish when they start making statements running down different races, sexual preferences or ideas. It's amazing sometimes how easy it is to make someone feel very foolish when confronted with common sense.

[Stacy L]

Well...you're not a woman. Just because i feel like a fish doesn't mean i can live underwater, get real.


If you feel like a fish you are in the wrong forum, you need to go to the Fish Fetish Forums. :brolleyes:

[Zooey]

I agree with you there appears to be very few fetishists on crossdressers.com and this is likely because the site rules prohibit explicit sex talk. But, you cannot deny there are millions of CD sites that cater specifically to fetish: the porn sites, the yahoo and other groups, the fetish wear, the meet-up sites, etc. I think that of all birth-males who do wear items of women's clothing, the vast majority are indeed fetishists. They just don't happen to hang out here.

I'm not sure that that's true. I think that if you look at a lot of the responses here to various topics, there is a lot of fetish to be found. Fetish doesn't have to be overtly sexual (as in intercourse or other activities), but there is a tremendous amount of erotic energy expressed in a lot of the content here. Just because we disallow overtly sexual discussions doesn't mean there isn't a sexual component to what a lot of the people here are describing.

[PaulaQ]

Oh, and BTW, I kind of think that there is also some confusion among many about gender and sexuality. Ones gender expression may be fully driven by identity without that precluding a healthy interest in sexuality. I sometimes feel as though to be accepted on this site, TG must somehow prove themselves almost asexual in order to "prove" they are pure and motivated only by identity and not sexuality. It is entirely possible and quite healthy for the "purest" identity driven TG to still maintain and desire a natural sex life... isn't it? :battingeyelashes:

Not just this site, but on lots of sites, including facebook, reddit, twitter, by tons of people - religious people, TERFs, all sorts of folks view any connection to sex as meaning that the person's identity isn't really legitimate or real or valid. This is one of the clubs used to beat us up. Because if sex is involved, it must mean that our gender identity or expression is purely a choice - something we do for kicks, often with the implication that we'll eventually do even less savory things, such as rape or child molestation.

This is one of the reasons many of us hate, and go ballistic, whenever Blanchard's theories are mentioned. He never actually indicates that the link he posited between sexuality and transition in MtF's made the identities of these trans women unreal. He doesn't say anything about that, and actually advocates transition, GCS, for them. Unfortunately, the use of a term like paraphilia, with all of its non-heteronormative implications, dredges up a bunch of shame typically that is internalized within the person who reads the term, and causes them to project that shame onto us. (I'm not defending his theory, btw. I think the mechanism he suggests, internalized shame for androphilic MtF's, and internalized paraphilia run away for non-androphilic MtF's, is unlikely to be correct. However, there's no reason that the portion of our brains that seems to control sexual orientation couldn't also be involved in transgender people's gender identity. In fact, there may be some evidence this is the case.)

Anyway, we tend to get hung up on sex and be suspicious of it, unless it is completely vanilla, heteronormative sex. And even then, we often don't like to talk about it. And we shouldn't really be doing it, unless we're married. Or at least in love. Or gone on at least the proper number of dates to minimize the chances of being ****-shamed.

I agree with you Samantha, this is absolutely one of the things that is used against us as a weapon.

[JasmeVee]

Sorry, didn't realize the sarcasm detector was broken, everything is easier however if you don't identify as either male or female (or educated vs uneducated) and let others decide it for you

[ReineD]

I'm not sure that that's true.

I meant the pure fetishists, the kind that put on a pair of women's panties, or hose and heels, or perhaps a wig and bra (whatever floats their boat), to masturbate and then rip the stuff off when they're done. In my view, whether someone needs a pair of heels, or a fuzzy boa, or a latex suit with a mask and ball is all the same - it's pure sexual fetish.

I agree there is a scale to fetish, from always, to sometimes, to rarely. And some people enjoy a buildup (a sort of foreplay) while others don't need it. But the existence of millions of websites that cater to sexual fetish including a demand for all the props and costumes and spaces where people can meet others for sex or engage in cybersex point to a significant number of people who are not interested in exploring femininity for its own sake. There are far more websites that cater to this than there are people who post regularly in this forum's CD section.

We had a member like that attend our TG support group at one point. He attended a few meetings, never to be seen again. He wasn't interested in hanging out with CDers for whom it used to be sexual but is no longer, or the transitioners in our group.

[Zooey]

I agree there is a scale to fetish, from always, to sometimes, to rarely. And some people enjoy a buildup (a sort of foreplay) while others don't need it. But the existence of millions of websites that cater to sexual fetish including a demand for all the props and costumes and spaces where people can meet others for sex or engage in cybersex point to a significant number of people who are not interested in exploring femininity for its own sake. There are far more websites that cater to this than there are people who post regularly in this forum's CD section.

I don't think you can judge the frequency of fetish by the frequency of masturbation. Just because you didn't masturbate, doesn't mean that you didn't extract a sexual thrill from something. I think there are a number of stories related in the CD forum here that are describing exactly that. Whether masturbation occurred at some point or not, it's still a sexual experience.

Think of the foot fetishist who stares at a woman's feet in public. They're unlikely to be masturbating in that situation, but they are undeniably feeling a sexual thrill associated with their fetish.

When we're talking about issues like bathrooms, and the concerns some women have about men in there (I'm thinking of the women, including myself, who say "if they transition and live as women then okay, but not CD men"), I think it goes beyond fear of some dude masturbating in a stall. It's the fear/feeling of being a prop in somebody's fantasy. Very few people want their basic bodily waste-management functions to be part of anybody's thrill.

I've personally encountered (yes, in real life) enough CDs making a big production out of being in the women's room that I have no doubt they're getting something out of it. In a number of those cases, I'm pretty sure it was sexual. I KNOW it's not ALL CDs, but I personally think the population here has a skewed perception of how widespread this is, partly out of not being able to see it in themselves, and partly due to the fact that we do have people here who I have no doubt are perfectly normal about things, and they tend to be vocal (which is not a bad thing).

[Lorileah]

If you are a transexual...then use the women's bathroom..but if you are a crossdresser...ffs...don't be such a wimp- it's a fetish, you are a man who enjoy dressing like a female, you are not a woman. Seriously, this is so stupid.


So, either you police yourselves or you take the risk of being attacked using the men's room over what you call a "fetish" (which it isn't by any standard definition). Where's Forrest Gump when we need him?

I guess some of us need a tag that says "Yes, I am a TS, thus I am a woman" because honestly, I can still see the "man" in me when I look.

Once again I am amazed you all divide yourselves when you should be uniting. But thank you for allowing me to use the women's room. Considering up to 6 weeks ago, I could have still have been considered a "man in a dress" physically. Maybe I should have carried my letter...you know just in case I needed to prove it.

[nothingclever]

There seem to be a lot of variables here that don't matter....last year if a trans person used the ladies', it is doubtful anything would have been said. The media is creating an issue out of a non-issue. Until recently, I and most other women, would have assumed any male presenting as a female was transsexual. Obviously, I would have been wrong, but that would have been my assumption. I would have been mortified if anyone said anything to this person. Now, everyone feels entitled to shout at people because they MAY be trans? This would have been much less acceptable just a few months ago. Suddenly, ggs are territorial about our public restrooms, ridiculous. If we're going to insist on bathroom changes, why not a spot away from the toilets where we can sit and nurse our children, or tampon machines that actually work? Whoever's peeing behind the door in the stall next to me didn't matter a year ago and doesn't matter now. Unless someone is behaving inappropriately for a bathroom visit, keep your head down, do your business and get on with life. In the meantime, if a business starts requiring that I have to flash my genitals, an id card or any other proof that I'm female, I'll find somewhere else to spend my money.

[samantha rogers]

Lorileah, I agree totally. I don't see the point in breaking into factions.

Look, in the end, the entire TG community, using the broadest of possible definitions, rises or falls publicly not by way of our strongest, most intelligent, most feminine, most socially acceptable members....but according to our weakest links.
And who gets to decide who those people are anyway? Who gets to draw the line and say "Yes...you are welcome but you...the "tranny" over there...you are not" ...?

I sure don't want that job.

Like it or not, I think we succeed in public acceptance together, as a whole, leaving no one behind .... or we fail the same way.

[Rhonda Jean]

I sometimes feel as though to be accepted on this site, TG must somehow prove themselves almost asexual in order to "prove" they are pure and motivated only by identity and not sexuality. :

Ooohhh! Pass that can of worms, please!


I don't think you can judge the frequency of fetish by the frequency of masturbation. Just because you didn't masturbate, doesn't mean that you didn't extract a sexual thrill from something. I think there are a number of stories related in the CD forum here that are describing exactly that. Whether masturbation occurred at some point or not, it's still a sexual experience.

Think of the foot fetishist who stares at a woman's feet in public. They're unlikely to be masturbating in that situation, but they are undeniably feeling a sexual thrill associated with their fetish.

When we're talking about issues like bathrooms, and the concerns some women have about men in there (I'm thinking of the women, including myself, who say "if they transition and live as women then okay, but not CD men"), I think it goes beyond fear of some dude masturbating in a stall. It's the fear/feeling of being a prop in somebody's fantasy. Very few people want their basic bodily waste-management functions to be part of anybody's thrill.

I've personally encountered (yes, in real life) enough CDs making a big production out of being in the women's room that I have no doubt they're getting something out of it. In a number of those cases, I'm pretty sure it was sexual. I KNOW it's not ALL CDs, but I personally think the population here has a skewed perception of how widespread this is, partly out of not being able to see it in themselves, and partly due to the fact that we do have people here who I have no doubt are perfectly normal about things, and they tend to be vocal (which is not a bad thing).

I agree. Especially the part about being a prop in someone's fantasy. I think there's a long list of CD "bucket list" type things that fall into this category. Going into the ladies room is one of them.

It's impossible to determine motivation. Fewer would argue the issue if this were just about needing to pee (Many would argue regardless). It's when someone gets a kick out of just going in there that it seem dirty, for lack of a better term. To many if not most people, we're indulging a fantasy or a fetish just by being in public dressed as a woman, and further heightening that by entering a space that by proclamation is for females only. To some it seems to be a self-affirming confirmation of being female, just by walking through that door.

[Jenniferathome]

...Maybe I should have carried my letter...you know just in case I needed to prove it.

I was advocating for a tattoo on the back to the neck, but that never got any traction...


...Until recently, I and most other women, would have assumed any male presenting as a female was transsexual. Obviously, I would have been wrong, but that would have been my assumption. ...

I think this is really important. I suspect that this is widely true across the planet. Cross dressing is really not top of mind for most people. And this gets back to the issue of who should be allowed to use what facility. ID's and pee police are ridiculous notions. Like it or not, the trans community is in the same boat as the cross dressing community on this issue.

[ReineD]

I don't think you can judge the frequency of fetish by the frequency of masturbation. Just because you didn't masturbate, doesn't mean that you didn't extract a sexual thrill from something. I think there are a number of stories related in the CD forum here that are describing exactly that. Whether masturbation occurred at some point or not, it's still a sexual experience.

Yes, I agree. There are degrees to fetish. Actually, a term I prefer to use is "sexual preference", or maybe just plain "preference". The word "fetish" has all kinds of negativity associated with it. Anyway, you see it, I see it, but some people have a stricter definition: "must masturbate each time else I do not consider myself a fetishist". No one can convince them that they dress for reasons other than gender dysphoria. They think that if they don't masturbate each time, then they must be gender dysphoric. But then they'll participate in threads about wanting to date a man or any number of other fantasy threads that pop up here regularly. Another brand of fantasy thread is enjoying stereotypical female behaviors while dressed, like cooking or cleaning, or wanting to be submissive or otherwise "typically" feminine in some way. :p

Getting back to the topic though, I also believe that transitioners should use the women's rooms and that male-identified and gender-variant/neutral-identified (this includes people who only feel they are women when dressed) should do their best to use single-user spaces, or do like my SO, use the women's bathrooms judiciously when there is no one else in them.

... and hopefully in the long run our society will stop thinking of bathrooms as gendered spaces and we will find ways for everyone to use the same space.

I just got back from Morocco which you all know is a country inhabited by mostly Muslim people, who do segregate the sexes far more than we do. But, guess what THEY do in bathrooms (the bathrooms that are not the more primitive hole-in-the-ground single user spaces). In the larger restaurants, they have a wide hallway with a row of rather large stalls on each side, each stall has a toilet and a small sink. There is an attendant on the premise to make sure that only one person goes into a stall at a time, and who goes in afterwards for a quick look and clean up if need be. Both men and women use the stalls as needed. Fancy that! :)

The places where the tour buses stop do tend to have "women" and "men" spaces, but my impression was they do this mostly for tourists.

[Lana Mae]

ChristianK,
Do not feel bad! A gg here in nc was accosted for being in the ladies' room. I am sure she passed!lol Hugs, Lana Mae

[Robin414]

I've been watching way too many hate videos on you tube lately and they're starting to have a real negative impact (yah, I'm sticking to Robot Chicken exclusively now). I've never experienced any negative response and have no reason to expect to based on my personal experience. Sure, I'll fight ya, but I'd much rather avoid ya or just smile politely and walk away from ya ☺

[susan54]

I feel the need again to put the case for the few on this site who do not identify as women or get a sexual kick out of it. I get a buzz out of it in the same way someone hitting a good golf shot would. I do not wear make up (OK, sometimes lipstick) or a wig at home and go out less than I used to. Going out is like going on stage - there is a thrill but it is not a sexual one and it is refreshingly different to feel the breeze on your legs. These clothes thrill many women but not in a sexual way - why not some men? I look in the mirror and think "damn I look good" and a few women have said I look better in a dress than I do in male clothes. I agree that some CDs seem to get some kick out of going to the Ladies. Getting a thrill out of going to a toilet seems a bit weird to me. I have used a ladies, but only when I had to and just a handful of times in hundreds of trips out. Give us mere crossdressers a break. Some of us really are not trans or fetishistic.

[ReineD]

I've been watching way too many hate videos on you tube lately and they're starting to have a real negative impact

Haven't you noticed that people feel much more motivated to express negative reactions than neutral ones?

The millions of people who are neutral about TGs aren't going to post long rants about being neutral. :p But the small percentage who object strongly do feel motivated to do so because of their outrage and so the rest of us get the impression these videos reflect society's overall reactions.

They do not.


there is a thrill but it is not a sexual one and it is refreshingly different to feel the breeze on your legs.

Yes, a lot of members here feel like you do. It is thrilling, but not in a sexual way. But still, it is still a thrill. :)



These clothes thrill many women but not in a sexual way

Do we get a thrill out of wearing nice clothes? I wouldn't put it that way at all. We may dress-up for a variety of reasons ... in some circumstances it is to attract a mate (sexy clothes), in others to impress a boss (showing how professional we are), in others it might be to show our economic status (expensive designer fashions), and many times it is simply to conform to the media's benchmark for beauty, based on all the ads, catalogs, and other media we see. I suppose a lot of people (men and women) want to show themselves in the best light possible, appropriate to whichever situation they might be in. And certainly when we're alone or just going to the grocery store, we don't dress up. But do we feel a thrill when we put on a new outfit for whatever purpose? I don't think so. We may look in the mirror and feel good about looking nice for the event we are about to attend (just like my son recently ... he went to a wedding and was wearing a great suit that made him look so dapper and he felt good about the way he looked) ... but a thrill? No.

I'm wondering if the thrill you feel is more about the fact that you're wearing female clothes? Do you feel the same thrill when you're dressed nicely as a man?

[JulieC]

It can happen at any time even if we've had much success in the past. I feel very fortunate that the event did not turn into a huge confrontation, even though we're supposed to be protected in California. The question is, if the public is not aware of that, are we really protected?

Indeed it can happen. We must all realize that laws or no laws, there is NO protection. Hate based violence can happen anywhere, and laws will not protect you.

[susan54]

In reply to ReineD I think there ARE women who get a thrill out of clothes and shoes and the extreme ones overlap with the shopaholics. There are none of these women in my life but I read fashion columns and overhear conversations when shopping or sales assistants say things. I get no buzz from even the most feminine of women's trousers. Yes, I feel good when i am in a smart suit but this feel good is inferior to a knockout dress outfit. I compare this to the buzz an actor gets on stage playing Napoleon - great outfit and character but almost none of these actors think they ARE Napoleon. Skirts and dresses and putting outfits together based on these is FUN for some women and some men. Some men get fun playing with toy trains and spend a fortune on a new locomotive they have drooled over for weeks. I really don't see why there is a reluctance to accept the absence of arousal with cross dressing. Fun, comfortable and looking good - what's not to like? If the bra and heels (indoors) are uncomfortable you are wearing the wrong ones. I concede that heels are uncomfortable outside all day but even there, there are women who choose to wear nothing but heels. Time after time women say they dress for themselves and they spend a LOT more on their outfits than men. Maybe they are having fun too.

[Zooey]

I think the feelings that you are trying to equate here are rather different.

I can understand why you would want to try to make them out as equivalent, but I can assure you... They're not.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I am very saddened by this thread.

Ben Franklin purportedly said, "We all need to hang together, or surely we will all hang separately.

This thread is marking a line in the sand (or maybe several lines) separating CDs from TS.

If you really want to split hairs on the "bathroom bills", may we should divide the pre-op TS from the post-op TS from the middle way from the CD from the fetishist CD. If we choose to divide ourselves into so many small pieces, none of use will get any bathroom freedom, except maybe the post-op TS who "pass". I think that this is an important fight, and a fight that we can and should win. However if I start to think that the TSs want to win this fight without including all the other sub-groups, I'll stop my support of TSs in women's bathrooms.

So, think about making some compromises for unity, the same way that many of us make compromises within our marriages.

Division and infighting on this issue may get some of us what we want and what we need, but may leave many of us behind.

I think that even in NC, TS can use women's bathrooms provided the gender marker is changed on the birth certificate. Is that really enough for us?

[Zooey]

This thread is marking a line in the sand (or maybe several lines) separating CDs from TS.

Umm, yes. Yes it is. At least for me, the only division I'm interested in (for the purposes of gendered spaces) is between women and not women, and most importantly men. Anybody whose legal identity is "F" needs to have consistent legal treatment as a woman. Anybody who doesn't, well, doesn't.

The debate over bathrooms should be over whether they should be gendered at all, not over whether men should be allowed into the ladies room.

[flatlander_48]

The very notion of a protected class is to give special protections to an otherwise embattled minority group.

No, it was to insure that the groups involved received the SAME rights and privileges as everyone else. Problem being that if your group was not mentioned in the constitution, there was no automatic assumption that those rights and privileges applied.


The debate over bathrooms

Only there was no debate until someone saw the possibility for political gain in it.

DeeAnn

[PaulaQ]

If you really want to split hairs on the "bathroom bills", may we should divide the pre-op TS from the post-op TS from the middle way from the CD from the fetishist CD. If we choose to divide ourselves into so many small pieces, none of use will get any bathroom freedom, except maybe the post-op TS who "pass". I think that this is an important fight, and a fight that we can and should win. However if I start to think that the TSs want to win this fight without including all the other sub-groups, I'll stop my support of TSs in women's bathrooms.


Not all of us feel that way Steffi. The goal of the people who don't like us is our eradication. They won't succeed - they are too dumb to understand we're born this way. But they'll certainly try if given the chance in ways nightmarish for us all.

[ReineD]

If you really want to split hairs on the "bathroom bills", may we should divide the pre-op TS from the post-op TS from the middle way from the CD from the fetishist CD.

The issue of pre-op vs post-op shouldn't even come up in gendered spaces (except for the less-essential spaces where everyone is naked ... but see the note below).

Only about 25%-30% of MtFs and 5% of FtM transitioners (people who live full time in their target genders) get SRS.

The issue is rather, if a MtF is living full time in her target gender and she wishes to be perceived by everyone as her target gender. In other words, if her female gender identity is unchanging and she has backed that up by having transitioned (living full time), then she should be allowed in the same places as natal females, who also are full time and who also wish to be perceived by everyone all the time as women.

Note: The only exception to that are facilities where people get naked (changing rooms, saunas, etc) where a TS has not had SRS. I don't know how to resolve this other than provide a privacy area for the TS? I don't think that MtF TSs who have not had surgery would expect there would be no issues among the natal females, if they were naked among other naked women? But, saunas aren't essential to living, and neither are public changing rooms. So they can be avoided ... or, arrangements can be made with the facility in question to provide a private space if, for example, a transwoman wishes to swim on a regular basis at her local public pool and she still has male genitalia. However, the question of spaces where everyone is naked may be a discussion for a separate thread?

[flatlander_48]

Unfortunately the way it is usually discussed, all situations are mentioned together. However, the reality is, as you mention, quite different.

DeeAnn

[Lorileah]

Reine, very true. Places where one may expect to be seen, at least in "this" society (the Victorian based type) and which are not essential for normal living are far more difficult to say "Hey everyone should get to use this". However, this essentially has been addressed in the US 50 years ago. No separate but equal facilities are allowed. Title IX states that if there aren't equal opportunities for both genders, then the gender can participate in the opposite gender's activity. (using Title IX in the sports connotation which is where I am familiar). We had this in college. There was a gap between levels of competition between women's volleyball. We had (two different times) GGs on our men's team (and amazingly we won the school championship both years). Now in a twist here, both times we were challenged by fraternities as to being able to have a woman (obviously, having a woman gave us the advantage). Both times Title IX was invoked. No man tried to make the women's intercollegiate team then but IF they had, they would have had to have been allowed to play.

Now the herring in all this. IF a TS has not transitioned surgically, technically they have done any other requirement, it would be a big kerfuffle but technically, tat person would be allowed to use PUBLIC facilities (i.e. changing rooms in community lockers that are state or county and especially Federal). Of course there would be police and media and a big blow up, which very few TSs would want, so we stay away. Personally I am looking forward to steam rooms (there are towels) and athletic activities and yes swimming pools (or springs) now. But I still have a huge "tell". I need to keep a wig or some head cover at all times for those. I expect somewhere along the line to be called out. Thus I have delayed. I think, honestly, a pre-op would have trouble. Even this post-op expects it

[Zooey]

The only exception to that are facilities where people get naked (changing rooms, saunas, etc) where a TS has not had SRS. I don't know how to resolve this other than provide a privacy area for the TS? I don't think that MtF TSs who have not had surgery would expect there would be no issues among the natal females, if they were naked among other naked women?

I don't know any actually transitioned trans women who are terribly interested in having other people see genitals they don't feel very good about. On the rare occasions where I use the gym at work, I change in a bathroom stall. We have private showers, but I tend to avoid them anyway, because I'M not comfortable with showing my body to people in its current state. When covered with a towel, I'm more or less indistinguishable from any other mid-30's kinda out of shape women in there. :|

[ReineD]

Zooey, this makes perfect sense to me.
[-]
(but you forgot to put a "don't" between "they" and "feel" in your first sentence)[/-] fixed.

[Pat]

Note: The only exception to that are facilities where people get naked (changing rooms, saunas, etc) where a TS has not had SRS. I don't know how to resolve this other than provide a privacy area for the TS?

It seems like the best result would come from providing a privacy area for everyone. If everyone uses little cabana-style changing closets then nobody feels singled out.

BUT this is one of those issues where I think we're (foolishly) taking the bait from the haters. If I was in a woman's changing room with male genitals I wouldn't want to be showing them. I'd take all kinds of evasive action to never be seen with my bottoms off and the people I know are pretty much all the same way. I'm guessing FtM folks would feel the same way in a male changing room. It's great to make contingency plans for some theoretical case, but my sense is real trans people have some inbuilt desire to avoid the scenario that's being painted.

[ChristinaK]

You ladies have taken this so.far it's funny.

It will never be possible to establish a man's motive for visiting the Ladies Room.

Carry a card, rediculous. To me, if a dude is dressed as a woman, he goes unisex if available.

If not, they don't really have a choice but to use the Ladies Room.

What does the law need to say? Nothing. We've been doing this for a long time and it just hasn't been an issue. Too bad it's been made an issue. I feel very confident that 5he woman that addressed me only did so because it's been made an issue.

The law is not going to change people's minds. That will take generations, if at all. The issue is much different than racial issues, it gets down to a person's basic beliefs about safety and maintaining gender differences.

[ReineD]

In reply to ReineD I think there ARE women who get a thrill out of clothes and shoes and the extreme ones overlap with the shopaholics. There are none of these women in my life but I read fashion columns and overhear conversations when shopping or sales assistants say things.

I beg to disagree. I'm not sure how you identify (TG, CD, or male), but you are speaking from one of those points of view. And you have put your own spin on the things you have read or heard, or you've read something designed as click-bait and taken it to be the norm.

Natal women most definitely do not get thrills out of clothing and shoes in the same way as a CDer who says s/he feels a thrill by dressing up in a pretty dress but not in a dashing man's suit. One, we are not dressing in a gender different than who we are. Two, yes there are shopaholics who get thrills out of accumulating stuff, and there are most definitely women who get a thrill from having scored a great bargain whether this is clothing, shoes, household goods, or a gift for someone (I am one of these :)) but this has nothing to do with the very special thrill that comes from wearing a dress or presenting as a woman for CDers.

You may not define the benefit you derive from the CDing as a thrill and this is perfectly OK. You may instead define it as relaxing, or contributing to your overall sense of well-being somehow and it may even be necessary for you to dress occasionally for your mental health. There are lots of ways to define that special feeling that CDers experience, that natal females do not experience, when a CDer is wearing cross-gender clothing. But it is not the same.


If I was in a woman's changing room with male genitals I wouldn't want to be showing them. I'd take all kinds of evasive action to never be seen with my bottoms off and the people I know are pretty much all the same way.

Exactly. I just mentioned it in passing to be thorough and instead suggested a different thread if anyone wanted to debate the issue.

[ChristinaK]

Also, it seems that there is a debate about who is a fetishist and who is TG. Seems to me that both are CDers and the motivation is irrelevant. Both flavors should be welcomed here.

If a guy gets a thrill in the Ladies Room, big deal, unless he bothers the women there. It's not me, but I'm just saying.

If he does present a problem there, he's probably breaking a law.

[Zooey]

...and yet, for many women who deal with (and have been dealing with) inappropriate kinds of attention from men far too often (and far more often than you probably think), it's not simply "no big deal". When you've been semi-routinely made to feel uncomfortable and objectified through inappropriate attention and objectification from men on the damn sidewalk on a sunny afternoon with tons of people around, let me know and we can talk about whether or not I should suck it up and be more comfortable with being made to feel that way in the bathroom.

[Dana44]

I don't know why the bathroom issues are so out of wack on this site. The trans folks and us TG and CD people need to be on the same page. As crazy as it is, why do some of the trans people focus on us as we are fetish or something. There is not much difference between us and although our driver license say we are male does not mean that we are mean men. I am TG and it would be quite an issue for me not to go how I am presenting. The male bathroom is not typically for women and if you walk in as one that's how they will see it and may not end well. I would say wise up and lets get on the same page because we are all in this together.

[Zooey]

As crazy as it is, why do some of the trans people focus on us as we are fetish or something.

Oh, I dunnoooooo...

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?241280-Are-You
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?240230-Ever-feel-like-being-dominated-by-a-man-when-dressed
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?237704-Have-you-ever-kissed-a-man
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?240942-in-a-perfect-world-how-far-would-you-go
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?240912-underdressing-in-summer
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?238866-How-quot-girly-quot-do-you-get

To be fair, I only went back through threads that were active in the last week... Ahem. Should I keep looking? :rolleyes:

I don't think every CD here is a "perverted sex freak", but I absolutely think that there is an erotic/sexual undercurrent running beneath a very large percentage (feels like a majority, but I haven't counted) of the people and content here. It's certainly a large enough percentage to make me be unable to ignore it or advocate for it to my cis friends. That's especially true when some of the same people are the ones saying I should have no concerns.

Edited to add:


I am TG and it would be quite an issue for me not to go how I am presenting. The male bathroom is not typically for women and if you walk in as one that's how they will see it and may not end well. I would say wise up and lets get on the same page because we are all in this together.

I'm going to speak generally, because I know you say you're gender fluid, which is another can of worms. You have a bathroom safety issue, not a being a woman issue. Those are two VERY different issues.

IMO, the best path forward for addressing the safety issue for you (and many others here) is to de-gender bathrooms - which I support - not to declare a free-for-all on the ladies room as it currently exists.

[Jennifer-GWN]

It's like taking a bite of forbidden or unacheivable fruit for some CDs...

[ReineD]

To me, if a dude is dressed as a woman, he goes unisex if available.

If not, they don't really have a choice but to use the Ladies Room.

What does the law need to say? Nothing. We've been doing this for a long time and it just hasn't been an issue.

In a nutshell, I agree. CDers should continue to do what they've always done, except maybe not right now in North Carolina. :p This means being careful about which bathrooms to use, for example not choosing to use the mall bathroom on a Saturday afternoon when the mall is hosting a large Girl Guide event. I don't think this is an issue for most CDers or at least I have not encountered CDers on this site demanding that natal women recognize them as women in bathrooms.

And the nonsense about making it specifically "illegal" to use a bathroom that does not correspond to one's birth sex simply has got to go. In all states. It does not serve any purpose other than to inflame and to try to create stereotypes in order to further a political agenda, and I suspect it will be proven to be unconstitutional.

But a separate issue, and the most important, is the need to change how this nation defines women and men - is it just based on birth genitals, or should it also include the people born in the wrong bodies who need to transition. The Courts need to define this because for the first time ever, in the last generation, transsexuals have come out en masse. They are transitioning and living publicly in their target gender, they demand to enjoy the same rights as cispeople, to be in the same places as the cispeople who identify as the same gender, and they deserve to be there with an absence of hate crimes. So it has become necessary to define what is "F" and "M" which in the process will grant them rights to be in the right bathrooms. It is necessary IMO to legalize access to public restrooms for transitioned transsexuals, as a protective measure, using a newly defined "F" and "M" that is not strictly according to one's genitals. And public bathrooms are particularly in contention because gendered spaces are particularly sensitive ... they are personal, away from the public eye, and they are places where people are more vulnerable.

So the question is, how should we define someone who will fit into the newly defined "F" category (other than ciswomen). Well, proof is in the pudding. Lambda Legal (http://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/transgender/restroom-faq) has defined it as according to one's gender identity and I agree. If someone identifies as a woman and has backed that up with living full time as a woman, then she is a woman. Realistically this means for most MtF TSs to risk things like relationships and jobs, which are not risked lightly. There is also a need to change gender markers on things like drivers licenses, credit cards, etc. Ceasing to look like a male is important too and so most get on hormones and also get electrolysis (very expensive) if they are not genetically blessed with already looking naturally like women. And many take it further with FFS, BAs, etc, plus having had counseling to explore talking all these drastic steps given the importance of all the changes. And this is all before any consideration might be given to SRS in the future! If you take all of this into account, it is not difficult to ascertain that a person's goal is indeed to live full time according to her gender identity.

The mistake is in fighting to recognize part-time CDers as "F", in the laws that are indeed necessary in order protect transwomen (and transmen). It is simply not going to happen because part-time CDers have not shown an intent to live full time as women, and therefore they are NOT seen as identifying fully as women. Plus, by virtue of being CDers, they do choose to live as men and so they do have options about where to pee.

This does not mean that CDers will not be able to continue to use women's bathrooms. As mentioned multiple times, there are no gender police at each bathroom door, and other than some pockets of people in the US, I think pretty much most people are neutral about it, they won't make a big deal if they suspect someone is a CDer who is minding their own business in a women's bathroom. And the silly rule in North Carolina (the only state to have done this to my knowledge) about "illegal for people not born in this sex" cannot stand. So if the bathroom isn't busy, or if the CDer blends in pretty well, or if the bathroom is in San Francisco for example rather than a small town in the South, or any other criteria a CDer might have used in the past to determine whether he wanted to use the women's or not, nothing needs to change. But, to have CDers legally defined as "F" for the purpose of enacting protective laws for TSs? It's just not going to happen.

As to the category of "mixed gender" mentioned earlier ... the people who do not define themselves primarily as either men or women, I did start a thread asking the question, but it isn't getting a lot of responses. I'm guessing there aren't many in this forum.

[TxKimberly]

Quite honestly, all this uproar over TG's and bathrooms lately has me extremely reluctant to use one . . .

[flatlander_48]

And the nonsense about making it specifically "illegal" to use a bathroom that does not correspond to one's birth sex simply has got to go. In all states. It does not serve any purpose other than to inflame and to try to create stereotypes in order to further a political agenda, and I suspect it will be proven to be unconstitutional.

This is precisely why Michael Hughes has made the point that by birth sex, he would be forced to use the women's restroom. I am certain women would have a reaction if they found themselves standing next to him, but that's what all this B/S leads to.

DeeAnn

[EffyJaspers]

Actually jeniffer..crossdressing IS a fetish. Unless you are a transgendered person with a female body chemistry, you're just a dude who wear panties and dresses because your brain likes it. Lie to yourself as much as you want to, but what i'm saying is a fact.

Crossdressing is a fetish and crossdressing is a life style. We should all sigh that what people wear defines people in such a way to be stigmatized. The situation presented and the revolving solution is complex because we generally use a two-gender system for lots of things *1 so to simplify it is unjust. Unless a census is taken in the USA and everyone takes it and everyone is truthful and the data is compiled completely and the census is wide on the questions it asks of lots of facets of life, unless this happens we will not be able to weigh general society and individual society's thoughts on an issue such as what bathroom a CD should use when in CD mode *2. The simplest answer to fixing this all would be to only have unisex bathrooms *3. Until humans are able to genetically and physically alter themselves easily and completely and cheaply and in a short period of time, until then we should live with and try to make undesirable situations tolerable. Having a person currently presented as a female using a traditional women's bathroom should not be questioned unless they are acting suspiciously *4. I check guys in the bathroom with a glance, but just to get view of my surrounding *5. That the mother made a check to the other "adult female" in the room is fine, that she decided to try and confront and harass her because her looks were not up to snuff is horrible. That the other "adult female" was "ignorant" of the insult, did her civic duty to wash her hands after using the toilet, and left without inducing a unsavory situation is to be applauded.

So in the year 2100 when the USA has decided to switch to gender neutral bathrooms I hope society has generally transcended this harassment. Of course.... if we get gender neutral *6 bathrooms questioning sex when any can be in there would be... weird? No lizard people allowed in the humans only bathroom!

*1 [like clothes sections, accessories, bathrooms, dressing rooms (sometimes), looks, wages... and other things. Now i feel like there are more, but I can't think of them and it feels like this BIG list just shrank]
*2 [with further complexities arising from how far the CD went to look one gender or the other while dressed in what is today in society considered solely women's and feminine clothing]
*3 [which in my opinion would lead to a camera facing down all of general lanes of the bathroom to catch what society assumes would happen in unisex bathrooms. The cameras would be needed to help in law enforcement cases that can happen in the bathroom whether you are presenting whatever way you want. There have been cases of bullying normal non-cd guys that just look more feminine or harassing real women because they look suspiciously male like.... or something]
*4 [like talking to themselves about a ritual or harming others, doing bad things, looking in stalls.... stuff a normal person that just needs to pee/poop or fix their makeup or change their child's diaper or splash their face or chitchat away from their dates doesn't do]
*5 (just like paying attention to everything on the rode as you drive protects you or is possibly interesting, I pay attention to my surrounding most the time so ninjas don't pop out the ceiling and murder me!!!! or you know, you catch that person that dropped their wallet or walked out the bathroom without washing their hands or has toilet paper stuck to their shoe or is sweating a lot or anything your mind thinks might pique or interest for a second)
*6 by gender neutral i mean gender neutral ONLY bathrooms, no 3-4 bathroom system. Men and women use the same bathroom and there is no other choice.... other than maybe a family bathroom because, i dunno, maybe it helps the offbeat bathroom shy person or family that actually needs to use it all together.

- - - Updated - - -


If all the regular people just want to get on with there lives and don't want genetically male people in the women's bathroom with them or their kids or their little sister or whoever just respect that. You are the loud, overrepresented minority but the majority still rules, it's not their problem, it's yours.

A "friend" once made the association when the bathroom bill first passed that gays should use the opposite bathroom too so they don't prey on all the straight people, and my retort was that his comment was REALLY stupid because a straight guy can go into the lady's room real easy and pass for gay because.... gay and straight people look alike. It isn't always suits and flamingos, we both wear blue jeans. ... What i guess that statement was supposed to say is that regular people is a nonexistent category, and it only exists in our minds when these issues pop up because there are camps for and against the issue, and we lump everyone into one or the other.......

On the loud minority part I can agree we are a minority, obviously tinier than the mainstream minorities, whether they be by sexual identity or heritage (black, white, latino, etc). Way tinier I assume, but I have no clue. I have no clue what amount of stuff will allow you to check mark the box that says crossdresser. Can we count the people that actively deny it, the people that wear that one clothing item even though it's the other sex (like a t-shirt or necklace etc etc etc?), those that hide the truth and haven't joined this site, those that degree of CDing can pass as normal guy wear and thus don't see themselves as CD, etc. ..The CD community could be a lot bigger than either of us assume. The norms of the past still rule, and the "morals" of the past still rule, and as society changes it can be part of our duty to help foster new norms (or you know, change the old norms with updated thoughts). Our morals are crap since the most vocal group, christians, don't even follow theirs (love your neighbor as yourself Jesus said, yet a woman yesterday just offered up mass genocide in Syria and turning it into a parking lot (even the f-----g children, she said to make sure to wipe out the children!!! f-----g nuts). All the pro-life people telling others to die or their going to hell, all the christians telling gays to die:::: are examples because (I consider myself christian) christians morals are so f----d up its hard not to poke holes in their logic). WE NEED to fix, to change, to come up with norms and morals. We need to actually follow our "still good" but ignored norms and morals.

Overall to say it's not their problem is not true and to say we are legitimately a over-represented minority is up for debate because I am in the closet, and my sister isn't considered a crossdresser when she wears that oversized guy shirt as a dress or other clothes, and presenting femininity is met with prejudice so you decide to ignore parts of the rainbow and how certain shirts are cut or if they are transparent or too tight or how high the crotch rides, if it has pockets, blah blah blah. blah blahhh bla, bl bla baba. I think your picture is cute and I am growing out my hair too though it's only at the ears so far.

[Claire Cook]

Hi all,
I haven't digested everything in this thread but here is my :2c:. Obviously unisex rest rooms are a solution, but
I've used the ladies' room for years with no problems (... even in NC rest stops) and honestly it just feels like the natural thing to do. I may not look like a 70-year old, but my kidneys are certainly 70 plus. I've never had a problem. Has ANYONE heard of a TG or TS accosting a woman there? (Sorry of I have missed something.)


Quite honestly, all this uproar over TG's and bathrooms lately has me extremely reluctant to use one . . .

Kimberly, I'm sorry to read this. Sadly, it's not just reactions to TG's ... it seems symptomatic of a growing feeling against anyone who is "different" ...

[ChristinaK]

Kimberly,

I successfully used the bathroom 3 other times that day with no issues. You look a lot more feminine than I do. I'm tall and broad shouldered and have only had one issue in dozens of times using the Ladies Room. I will continue to use the Ladies Room when dressed as there is no other choice often times. I've even had to stand in line to use the Ladies Room with no issues at all.

I always feel like a fox in a henhouse though. It's not comfortable, but it's a heck of a lot better than using the Men's Room when dressed!

Most women don't pay any attention. I've even put on lipstick and had women speak to me briefly. Either they had no clue or were perfectly fine with me, I don't know.

So, keep your shoulders back, hold your head high and boldly walk through the door like you're Miss America.

[xNicolex]

You can fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but never all of the people all of the time. I remember standing outside a bathroom waiting for my GF to come out and this drunk guy was staring at me with that squint look, as if he was trying to decide if i was a girl or not. but I was in and out of the bathroom girls beside me talking and fixing themselves in the mirror, to busy to pay me any attention. It can happen to anyone it only takes one person to draw attention and before you know it everyone is looking :( had this happen to me once, a group sitting at the table next to me and nobody even noticed me except for this one girl :Angry3: she was so rude kept whispering to her friends and looking over at me, made me feel really uncomfortable :(

[Rhonda Jean]

Quite honestly, all this uproar over TG's and bathrooms lately has me extremely reluctant to use one . . .

I agree. Even besides bathrooms, I've just become more cautious and, bad as I hate to admit it, I've been reluctant to go out. In 40 years of going out I've never felt quite this way, and I don't think it's just me being paranoid. It's been months since I've used a ladies room and I'm not looking forward to when it's unavoidable. I stop at Walmart and use the family restroom at the back of the store. I know a few convenience stores that have single user restrooms. And, yes, I carry a big cup in the car. Haven't had to use it, but the time will come.

I think I'm so uptight about using the ladies room now that my body just is keeping me from having to go as much. I'm not kidding about that! I'm not liking this era of trans visibility. I preferred invisibility! I do not feel empowered. I feel like I'm eliciting a "There's one!" response now, even though I've never actually seen or heard that reaction. I do see some raised eyebrows.

BTW, Great to see Kim back!!!

[arbon]

There is not much difference between us and although our driver license say we are male does not mean that we are mean men......
I would say wise up and lets get on the same page because we are all in this together.

Not much difference? Only if you consider transitioned women to be an extension of male cross dressing (basically seeing them as men who cross dress full time) Which is how I feel most on here think of ts women.

We are not even remotely alike, or in this together.
Your comparing men who like to dress in womens cloths to actual women. You feel feminine or like a woman when you put on female clothing. For me being a woman is simply being me. It is not dependent clothing. If I am wearing jeans and shirt and no make up what bathroom do you think I will still use? I'll use the one I belong in, the women's. If your dressed the same way which would you use?

We don't have the same issues.

With bathrooms
Employment
health care
legal issues


Use the bathroom you feel is appropriate for how you are dressed. It does not bother me. But don't say we are in this together and imply we are the same.

[ReineD]

Rhonda, do you live in the South? Because I think this is only an issue in some of the Southern states?


I'm not liking this era of trans visibility. I preferred invisibility! I do not feel empowered. I feel like I'm eliciting a "There's one!" response now, even though I've never actually seen or heard that reaction. I do see some raised eyebrows.


The raised eyebrows have always been there though, even when people do not judge negatively but feel neutral about it ... because of the small number of people who do cross the gender/sex barriers. Right? People do notice what is statistically different. I've always looked for the raised eyebrows, I think more than my SO, and this is how I know they've always been there.

Also, I don't think we can go much longer without bringing it all into the open. Transsexuals deserve to be legally recognized as the women or men they feel they are internally. And the recognition will not occur without redefining the laws (changing what is M or F on identity documents) and in the process, dealing with the people who disagree. Homosexuals had to fight big time for recognition too and same-sex marriage.



Kimberly, I'm sorry to read this. Sadly, it's not just reactions to TG's ... it seems symptomatic of a growing feeling against anyone who is "different" ...

Great point!



Nice to see you again, Kim! :)

[Dana44]

So Arbon, Seriously, I get enough from Zooey. But really what makes you so special that you despise us so badly. By god, you was once a man and we do consider you a woman in respect for you. Many out there do not and that is an issue for you. Why are we in this together? We are all in the spectrum Of LBGT, remember the rainbow colors. We are all in the same frog pond and some of you have made it all the way. Yes that is special. But it took you a long time to be a wanna be a woman. Why are you so discriminatory against us. Indeed we do have things in common. I saw on this thread where GG opinions were discounted as though you don't believe them. We listen to them. We listen to you.
I was just trying to say that since we are LBGT we are all in this together and need to get on the same page. SO why all the discrimination?

[ReineD]

To Dana & Arbon, hope you don't mind but as a third party who is able to step back, I think is is more of a communication issue than how you feel about one another.

Dana is not saying you are both the same gender, but you both do have one thing in common that cis-people don't have, and this is being looked upon as being different, sometimes or oftentimes by people who are not kind about this. There is some sort of solidarity to this.

Arbon does not despise you Dana, but rather took it you meant that you and she are the same gender, that you both express this gender for the same reasons, and that you both suffer from the same degree of intolerance in all areas of your lives. Arbon was pointing out this is not true. At the same time, Arbon pointed out that you do have every right to be yourself and to use the bathroom you feel comfortable using.

Did I get that right?

[Zooey]

Wait... LGBT is a spectrum now? How many spectra am I a part of at this point?

Quite right, Reine. This is, like many things, a matter of perspective. I can say with pretty much 100% certainty that none of us - including myself - despise any of you. Just because we are saying that we are different and have very different issues does not mean that we hate you, nor that we discriminate against you.


By god, you was once a man and we do consider you a woman in respect for you.

No, she wasn't - not really - although you're correct that she tried to be, and others saw her that way. In the same vein...


We are all in the same frog pond and some of you have made it all the way. Yes that is special. But it took you a long time to be a wanna be a woman.

Again - perspective. Not to pick on you, but this language is so fundamentally indicative of exactly the type of differences we're talking about. You say that you respect us as women, and yet the way that so many here speak and the assumptions made about us often indicate quite the opposite. The spectrum concept as applied here by many simply reinforces for them the incorrect notion that we are the same thing as male-identified crossdressers, and that we just "had it worse" or "went further".


I saw on this thread where GG opinions were discounted as though you don't believe them.

Genuine request - I would love for you to point out to me, in PM or otherwise, where this occurred. I just re-read this thread, and I don't see it.

[Dana44]

Indeed Reine, what you said is correct. Zooey, Aborn, I am sorry but yet we do feel the push and the cavalier attitude against us. I do agree with the GG's in this thread that we need to keep doing what we already have been doing. I do agree that a genderless bathroom would be best but in America I don't think we would ever see it. So, that is not a solution. And thanks Arbon for your comment that we should use the one we need to.

[arbon]

Danna - What discrimination?
No I don't despise you, or crossdressers. But I don't think that most crossdressers see ts women the way you claim.

I dislike be lumped with crossdressers and their issues which are not the same as mine. I keep getting told we are all in this together, in the same boat, on the same team, have to work together.
And consider the statement "But it took you a long time to be a wanna be a woman." really? See, we are on opposite sides here. You think I am a wanna be woman, not a real woman, but we are on the same team right?

You say we have things in common, perhaps you can explain what they are?

When I look at the bathroom and locker room issues the way I perceive it is that if I am denied access or harassed because of the type of woman I am it would be the same as denying any other woman access based on some characteristic. Like being black, or a red head. I don't see it from the perspective of a man presenting as a woman or as a wanna be woman. And those men saying this issue they face is the same as the one I face is annoying.

Over the last six months I have put myself out there is some substantial ways advocating for transgender rights, a lot having to do with our school district. The argument I repeated over and over again was that trans girls are girls, trans boys are boys, trans women are women, trans men are men. I had angry parents telling me how mental sick I was. One local resident made the suggestion I slit my throat. I was not advocating for guys that get dressed up time to time to do a little shoe shopping at the mall being able to use the girls room. Their issues are not the same. And while I have put myself out there how many crossdressers in my town were jumping in to advocate for their rights? ? Exactly zero.

[Zooey]

I do agree with the GG's in this thread that we need to keep doing what we already have been doing.

Just to be clear, "doing what we have already been doing" does not involve granting CDs the explicit legal right to use the ladies room. As far as I can tell, what they (and in fact I) have been saying is that "getting away with it most of the time" and "not being arrested when/if there's a conflict" (aka the status quo, by and large) is fine for people who do not identify (legally and otherwise) as and live their lives as women.

Being personally okay with a CD in the women's room is very different from saying that men should be guaranteed access to those spaces if they're wearing a dress.

[Amy Fakley]

Just to be clear, "doing what we have already been doing" does not involve granting CDs the explicit legal right to use the ladies room. As far as I can tell, what they (and in fact I) have been saying is that "getting away with it most of the time" and "not being arrested when/if there's a conflict" (aka the status quo, by and large) is fine for people who do not identify (legally and otherwise) as and live their lives as women.

Being personally okay with a CD in the women's room is very different from saying that men should be guaranteed access to those spaces if they're wearing a dress.

And how do you expect a stranger to make the distinction? It's an honest question.

I get where yall are coming from, but that is the deal. To an outside observer, there is no difference between a CD and a TS. You and I know there's a difference, and I don't challenge that. There are certainly differences, but they are not externally observable differences.

So when it comes to this "whose allowed in what bathroom" discussion, and you're telling me that I should use the men's room when I'm out in public as a girl, because I am not "as real of a woman as you are" ... in spite of the fact that there will be the exact same consequences for both of us when/if we are read by the wrong person ...

I understand where you're coming from, and I respect your identity as a woman. But honestly, while I can understand the argument you're making, I cannot wrap my head around how you'd expect this to work in the real world.

[Zooey]

There are society problems, and there are legal problems. This issue involves both.

Society needs to not be in a state where people get the s**t kicked out of them for being/looking different. Full stop.

Legally, it matters when there's a dispute, e.g. somebody complains about a "man" in the ladies room. Who's in the right? What are the consequences? Does somebody get asked to leave? We need to work on society to reduce the number of disputes, but the law is about how disputes are resolved.

I think we should work to de-gender bathrooms, because I believe it encourages progress on a number of the societal aspects. I don't think that legally treating men in dresses as women part of the time depending on what they happened to be wearing is the correct solution to anything.

[Amy Fakley]

Well ... that's all fine and good in some future paradise, but we're talking about here and now.

This thread started with a CD member of this site sharing a moment where they were read in a women's room, and quick thinking, and a calm composure were the only things standing between that person and a real probable beat down. Which was followed by a comment that strongly implied that the CD member was in the wrong and would have had it coming.

You're telling me that couldn't happen to you, because of this fundamental CD/TS divide that you perceive?

In the past, when I've stated "we're all in the same boat" that specifically is what I'm talking about .

[Zooey]

Actually, that could 100% happen to me, and that's sorta my point. I just don't believe that any law currently being discussed does anything to address that problem in the moment.

I believe we all need to work together to increase tolerance and respect. I believe that the legal solutions appropriate to each of our groups are very different.

[Amy Fakley]

To you mean the laws being debated and passed in three dead of night that explicitly criminalize the act of using the ladies room of you were born genetically male? The laws that literally make me have to choose between criminal behavior, or getting my butt kicked?

C'mon now! :-)

[Zooey]

I'm certainly not for the laws you're talking about. HB2 and its ilk are vile, heinous things.

You have a "safety" problem. I have a "consistent legal recognition as a woman" problem. IMO, the proper solutions to those problems are very different, but also not mutually exclusive. We should be working on both, but we also should not do legal gymnastics in order to try and make them the same.

[Amy Fakley]

... yes it's almost like we have a few the same problems for different reasons.
As if we were on some some sort of buoyant vessel together

:rofl:

[Pat]

Interesting. And if that buoyant vessel should founder, wouldn't that mean that you both end up drowning? (Separately, of course.)

[ReineD]

And how do you expect a stranger to make the distinction? It's an honest question.

They can't in many cases. This is why CDers should continue to do what they've always done, which is to use their instincts and common sense about when they feel comfortable using the women's bathrooms. An example: my SO is not TS and we've been out for many years. My SO will not use the bathroom in a packed mall on a busy Saturday afternoon if there is a major Girl Guide event going on (an exaggeration, to illustrate). We will make other bathroom arrangements. And if perchance we absolutely need to buy something there on that day before the mall closes - say there is a one-day only blow-out sale on an item we absolutely need, there is the option to go in male mode because my SO is not full time! TSs on the other hand do not have the luxury of switching back and forth.

But a completely different issue is how to redefine "M" and "F" legally. Should it include people who dress part time and if so, how do we get the rest of the US population to agree, including the wives of the CDers.

The legal redefinition of "M" and "F" is a separate issue from who actually uses the bathrooms ... provided we get rid of the "you cannot use the bathroom unless your genitals match" rule that I think is only specific to North Carolina and not other states. This does make it illegal for CDers to use women's bathrooms there and right now this is also true for all transitioned TSs who have not had SRS. This needs to change.

[Sarasometimes]

ReineD,
Well put and the way you and your SO manage nature calls to me just makes good sense. Have rights and exercising them are to different things. My late father used to say your rights end when they infringe on another's. Easy to say tougher to manage and implement.
I think the OP handled the situation the best based on the situation. Like the ads for lawyers say "past performance doesn't assure future success."

[Zooey]

... yes it's almost like we have a few the same problems for different reasons.
As if we were on some some sort of buoyant vessel together

LOL, well played.

Look, if the boat you're talking about is the SS "Humanity is important and we should all hate less and respect more", then I'm glad to ride that boat with you. Along with all women, people of color, the rest of the LGBT community, Syrian refugees, and pretty much any other human on the planet who has ever been marginalized by those in power.

When it comes to the boats I'm talking about - the boats organized by the nature and needs of our respective situations - then no. In my opinion, those boats have different destinations and routes, even if we both end up encountering some icebergs along the way.

[Krisi]

Ignoring her was probably the best option. Second would be to ask her why she wanted to know.

In any case, you wouldn't want to engage her in a conversation bout it.

[becky77]

Why do so few people understand what Zooey is saying??

She supports CDs, she agrees gender neutral bathrooms are the solution, she understands the safety issue.

The fundamental difference between a CD and TS is choice.
A CD chooses to dress female for a day and on that day needs to use a female toilet which if the presentation and attitude is respectful will hopefully be able to use the female toilet successfully. Of course if things get a little uncomfortable they may also choose to go to that place as a man next time, either way they don't have to be out dressed it is a lifestyle choice.

A TS who is full-time IS female and doesn't have any other option than to use the female toilet, they can't decide to come as a man next time because they are not men. There is no choice there is no hiding they have to be there and because of that need legal protection for the right of entitlement.

Most of the time this bathroom issue might not be a problem but seeing as TS are female they need legal protection should a situation turn nasty.
You can't expect a man that enjoys crossdressing at the weekend to also benefit from the same level of legal protection?

Try think of it like this:
There is a party with a mixed age group all drinking and dancing with no issues. Great night no one acts up and everyone goes home happy.
The next week they have the same party however this time someone kicks off and the police are called. Turns out there are some under age drinkers at the party.

Now what?
Do we just accept that they shouldn't legally be there drinking but they typically act responsibly so most of the time they get away with it.
Or do we lower the legal age so they have the same rights of adults?

I remember being underage in clubs with the risk of being caught, still did it and only once had an issue and I was barred. I never once thought the law should be changed to suit my own personal circumstances I understood the reason for the age limit. I had the choice of going somewhere else that was appropriate to my age.

If you are a male identified Crossdresser and you want to use the female toilet for safety I don't think anyone will disagree with that.
If you feel it is your 'Right' and should be made legal to use it then in my opinion that is a very selfish point of view that is totally disrespectful to the women using those spaces.

Need isn't the same as right.
Safety issue is a separate problem to legal right issue.

[Beverley Sims]

If the public are ill informed, we still have to bend with the wind and avoidhazards and confrontation.

Militant feminists still attract a lot of flak due to their stance.

[Dana44]

Becky, well said. I know that Zooey likes us but sometime what she implies gets under our skins because she tells us we are men like Conan the barbarian and we resent that a bit because we are far more feminine men and she should know that. It is also a safety issue for some of us to go into a male bathroom. I always look over my shoulder for any trouble. But en fem some of us pass and it would be real bad to have to use the men's room and she says we are manly men anyways and that is our safety issue while the GG's have said they understand the issues and to do what we have been doing but use common sense. And many of us do that. So the argument goes on for no reason at all. I guess we will never agree and there is a lot more crossdressers than TS, it would be a larger number if we worked together. That is all we are saying. But I understand now that the TS wants to go alone for their rights and we will have to do the same.

[TxKimberly]

Not much difference? Only if you consider transitioned women to be an extension of male cross dressing (basically seeing them as men who cross dress full time) Which is how I feel most on here think of ts women.

We are not even remotely alike, or in this together. .

Sometimes I feel like I am in groundhog day, repeating the same stuff over and over. . .

There are many of us, perhaps even a majority of us, that have made the choice not to abandon our careers and our families to go full time. Technically this makes us "only" crossdressers.

Many of us have the same self image that you do, the same needs that you do, the same head trips that you do, the same over whelming knowledge that we are in the wrong body that you do. The same need to grab every second of life that we can gather our fingers around that you do. That some insist on trying to draw a huge and wide line between the TS and cross dresser kind of offends me.

If you insist on drawing lines that separate us, how about using a little tact and consideration for those that chose a path that might even be harder than the one that you chose?

And oh yeah, GET OFF MY LAWN DAMN IT!

[Zooey]

I know that Zooey likes us but sometime what she implies gets under our skins because she tells us we are men like Conan the barbarian and we resent that a bit because we are far more feminine men and she should know that.

I never said you're all "manly manly butch butch kill murder pillage sex guys". I just said that most of you are men, or at the very least not women, and that there are some fairly fundamental differences in perspective that come from that. Speaking of which...


There are many of us, perhaps even a majority of us, that have made the choice not to abandon our careers and our families to go full time. Technically this makes us "only" crossdressers.

...and again, I'll just say that if you were actually capable of making that choice in the long run, then your situation IS fundamentally different from ours. For that reason, I personally think it's inappropriate, and displays a lack of understanding that undermines a lot of what you say about us and how similar we are, for you to project your situation onto ours in that way.


If you insist on drawing lines that separate us, how about using a little tact and consideration for those that chose a path that might even be harder than the one that you chose?

I've never said your lives were easy, or even easier. I simply said that they're different. I have no doubt that they are easier in some ways, and harder in others. That's the way life works.

If you feel like I have not been using tact and giving you consideration, then I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.

[Sometimes Steffi]

Not much difference? Only if you consider transitioned women to be an extension of male cross dressing (basically seeing them as men who cross dress full time) Which is how I feel most on here think of ts women.

We are not even remotely alike, or in this together.
Your comparing men who like to dress in womens cloths to actual women. You feel feminine or like a woman when you put on female clothing. For me being a woman is simply being me. It is not dependent clothing. If I am wearing jeans and shirt and no make up what bathroom do you think I will still use? I'll use the one I belong in, the women's. If your dressed the same way which would you use?

We don't have the same issues.

With bathrooms
Employment
health care
legal issues


Use the bathroom you feel is appropriate for how you are dressed. It does not bother me. But don't say we are in this together and imply we are the same.

I could have quoted a dozen different posts in this thread, but I chose yours arbon, because it was the clearest, and really rubbed me the wrong way.

Some people (in fact many muggles) say that if you're born a man, you'll never be a woman, no matter how many operations you may choose to have. I don't think that a "transitioned woman" to use your words, is a full time crossdresser. But, why can't you even consider that a crossdresser (or at least some crossdressers) would transition if it didn't mean that they might lose their wife, their family, their job and many of their friends.

When I'm out crossdressed, I am doing the best job that I can to emulate a woman. Since I'm 5'9", 150 lbs and wear a size 14 top and size 12 bottoms, in many ways, I'm more passable than the 1 out of 3 GG women who are obese or severely obese. When I'm dressed as a girl, it would be pretty hard to determine if I was "just a CD", bigender or a pre-op or non-op TS, without giving me a psychological test.

So, I've said my piece, clearly, respectfully, and without insults, and I hope if what I said is disagreeable, that the mods just delete my post, and not ban me. My intent is to not post on this thread again, and if anyone wants any clarification, please just PM me.

[flatlander_48]

...and again, I'll just say that if you were actually capable of making that choice in the long run, then your situation IS fundamentally different from ours. For that reason, I personally think it's inappropriate, and displays a lack of understanding that undermines a lot of what you say about us and how similar we are, for you to project your situation onto ours in that way.

Remember that recent times have seen increases in the numbers of people transitioning in their 50's and 60's. People cite retirement, death of parents and other circumstances that changed things for them. Obviously it's a different set of needs and experiences.

DeeAnn

[ReineD]

People cite retirement, death of parents and other circumstances that changed things for them.

... or divorce. I've always wondered about that - why transition only when major barriers are removed, when it is safe or easier, as if there was a choice all along. And if there was a choice (the choice to wait until seemingly unsurmountable obstacles were removed), then does this person have the same gender identity as someone who had no choice and risked everything.

[Zooey]

Reine - I don't think it is the same for the people who transition "once it's convenient". Honestly, amongst the people I know (and this is across all age groups), you can usually tell because the women are just women, and whatever the other ones are, they're the folks trying to act like "women".

I know people like to say that "it's hard to learn how to be a woman, especially when you're old". My personal belief is that, outside of purely practical skills like makeup application (which not every cis woman knows), if you have to learn how to be a woman, that's telling in some ways...

[PaulaQ]

whatever the other ones are, they're the folks trying to act like "women".


I think they are women who can't let go of acting like men, so they act like women - which comes off as inauthentic and still leaves lots of feigned male behavior behind.

Maybe a better way to say it is that it is a failure to fully commit, imo, most of the time. (There are non-binary people, but the authentic ones I know have very carefully developed expositions of their true self - they may not be much like me, but they feel authentic.)

The talk about sexuality and pre-transition gender expression in this thread just depresses me. It means nothing in terms of the validity of that person's gender identity once they come out, although it suggests that odds are, they'll be queer.

[flatlander_48]

... or divorce. I've always wondered about that - why transition only when major barriers are removed, when it is safe or easier, as if there was a choice all along. And if there was a choice (the choice to wait until seemingly unsurmountable obstacles were removed), then does this person have the same gender identity as someone who had no choice and risked everything.

I wouldn't say choice. I would think it is a case of delaying the inevitable.

I would assume that one would have to go through the same hoops, get the same approvals, etc. in order to transition. While I've read people's stories, I've yet to see exactly what allowed them to delay, so that remains a mystery. Other than medication and intense therapy, I don't know what else there would be. It's all very curious, but it does happen.

DeeAnn

[Amy Fakley]

It's interesting to me that in spite of all the words we've fired at eachother about society, laws, spectra (or lack thereof) and everything else, it seems to boil down to everyone defending their identities.

Surely in a space like this one, we can refrain from attacking the identity of others!?

If you transitioned because you felt that there was no other option, great! The fact that there are also people in the world who waited to transition (for instance to finish raising their children, or to protect a retirement they've spent their lives buildjng, or whatever) ... that doesn't invalidate your experience of "I can't handle waiting I must do this now". Both are valid, why must one experience diminish another ?? Actualy, how could that even be possible?!

If you tell me you are TS, it is not my place to tell you that you arent. It's nobody's place to do that. Same as if you tell me you're CD ... or if like myself, you find yourself somewhere between "playing dressup" and "suffering every minute of my life being utterly disconnected from my assigned gender" ... that's how I am ... if you think it's not possible for someone to be like that then I kindly suggest you keep that opinion to yourself because it is uninformed ... you don't have to live in my head and I can tell you it's definitely like that

[Pat]

This discussion seems to have taken a turn to the "transier than thou."


I've always wondered about that - why transition only when major barriers are removed, when it is safe or easier, as if there was a choice all along.

Well, the first, most obvious response is that because at that point it's safe and/or easier. If you're wondering why people would opt not to transition when it is unsafe or exceptionally difficult (since it's never NOT difficult) I'm left uncharacteristically speechless. But I'm guessing the answer is because we're all individuals and have individual responses and reactions. Some may delay transition from fear, some from a sense of duty to others, some because they're unaware it's an option for them. It doesn't really matter why and it doesn't make them "less trans" nor make others "more trans" if they have no inhibition about transitioning.

Reine -- I know you like to research rather than speculate -- if you look up the WPATH "Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender and Gender Nonconforming People" Version 7 you'll probably find it interesting in this regard. (The downloadable PDF is available for free from their web page http://www.wpath.org/site_page.cfm?pk_association_webpage_menu=1351&pk_association_webpage=3926 ) I think you'll find it very interesting especially when they're distinguishing Gender Nonconformity and Gender Dysphoria.

[Lorileah]

Sometimes I feel like I am in groundhog day, repeating the same stuff over and over. . .

Great point Kimberly

welcome to my world. If it's Tuesday this must be "Let's divide the TSs from the CDs day"

Moderator note: You know people (certain people) you don't need to be in this sand box. Dissing one part of the spectrum over the other with your "Holier than thou" or "I am different and YOU can never know" gets old REAL quick. The MtF boards are for everyone, Drag, CD, GQ and all the TSs variants and anyone in between. Yeah, we get we don't all want or need surgery or that some switch from guy to fem in a heartbeat or that some just wanna be a meld...so QUIT talking down to people. You know who you are and you are on BOTH sides of this argument. Your life sucks, we get that. It really sucks when people aren't like you.

OK that is settled. Now play nice or go to another sand box. Quit peeing on my section.

[arbon]

I could have quoted a dozen different posts in this thread, but I chose yours arbon, because it was the clearest, and really rubbed me the wrong way.

Why? I was not attacking or belittling anyone. I did not say cross dressers should not use the bathroom per how they are presenting themselves.
Only stating that I don't believe that we have the same issues and that we are not fighting the same fights and that we are not on the same team or that we are on the same spectrum.


Some people (in fact many muggles) say that if you're born a man, you'll never be a woman, no matter how many operations you may choose to have.


Yes. When you transition it is one of many things you have to deal with. Have you had to face that issue?- knowing your a woman and people saying your a man? Have you gone down that road with your wife, your children, friends, your employer, with your health care? It is not the same as getting them to accept your cross dressing, but having people accept you as a woman.



But, why can't you even consider that a crossdresser (or at least some crossdressers) would transition if it didn't mean that they might lose their wife, their family, their job and many of their friends.

Because a cross dresser does not need to transition, they are not a woman.
That is not to say there are not people here currently identifying as cross dressers who are ts or women and just haven't realized or accepted it yet. When they do, it will all look very different to them and the conversation is not going to be the same.


Since I'm 5'9", 150 lbs and wear a size 14 top and size 12 bottoms, in many ways, I'm more passable than the 1 out of 3 GG women who are obese or severely obese. When I'm dressed as a girl, it would be pretty hard to determine if I was "just a CD", bigender or a pre-op or non-op TS, without giving me a psychological test.

The women you are comparing yourself to are women and don't need to worry about passing, it is a non issue to them. Your not. It is pretty crude/rude/wrong that you would actually say what you said there.

You may very well pass better then I do too. Should I care? I know who I am and I live it. It does not change with my wardrobe. I don't have to emulate anyone. Understand the difference? Which gets to the point of why we don't share the same issues, even in the bathrooms.

[Pat]

Because a cross dresser does not need to transition, they are not a woman.

Here the medical community has drifted away from your view. CDs do not need to transition the way YOU did, but they have their own transition. The current thinking is that transition is the process of finding the social role in which you can be comfortable in your gender identity. For a TS, transition will probably include hormones, surgery, changing of identity documents and so on, but other gender variants may not need those things. But they still need to transition from the cisgender role they were taught about into a role that allows them to be who they are. Just as you ARE a woman and demand to be accepted that way, they ARE crossdressers or ARE gender-fluid or ARE whatever they are. Oh brave new world to have such people in it. ;)

Many crossdressers here talk about how they're happy because they have accepting spouses and can be themselves around them and don't care that they have to present male to the rest of the world. I'd argue that they've transitioned as crossdressers to a role that makes them happy (i.e. relieves dysphoria.) Others, like me, have to take more steps to reinforce a female presentation and be out walking around in the world, but we're not going to go to SRS because that wouldn't help. Mine is also a transition, but different than yours.

But there is still the Good Ship Transgender and all of us with gender identity issues are aboard. We do have issues in common. The people who would suppress me would suppress you too. We each have our individual issues as well, but the common ones are best addressed together when we can draw ourselves up to our full 0.6% of the US population (meaning there are fully as many of us as there are ham radio operators) to throw our weight around.

[TxKimberly]

Reine - I don't think it is the same for the people who transition "once it's convenient". Honestly, amongst the people I know (and this is across all age groups), you can usually tell because the women are just women, and whatever the other ones are, they're the folks trying to act like "women".

I know people like to say that "it's hard to learn how to be a woman, especially when you're old". My personal belief is that, outside of purely practical skills like makeup application (which not every cis woman knows), if you have to learn how to be a woman, that's telling in some ways...

My God, do you have any idea how arrogant your posts are? Many of us were born long before you were a gleam in your parents eyes. Long before your average muggle knew what "transgender" meant. Long before WE knew what "transgender" meant. Many of us came to learn all about what it meant to be TG far too late to jump on the wagon and say " I am a woman". Nope, we looked around us figured there must be something wrong with us, and tried to make the best out of our screwed up lives. Now, 50 freaking years later, and everyone knows exactly what it means to be TG and it is too damned late for us. We a have jobs, we have wives, we have families, we have decades of learning and habit to overcome, and so we do the best that we can and we sacrifice.
And yeah, some of us have come late to the game and need to unlearn decades of habit and training. . . .
As if that were not enough, and the derision of the typical muggle was not enough, now we have conceited TS's that want to point at us and say that we are lacking. . .
I'm too pissed off to remain polite so I'll leave off here. . .

[flatlander_48]

All:

I have created a thread that will hopefully help us to understand some of the contentiousness in recent times. Have a look and comment as needed.

The thread is at:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?241367-Incivility-And-Other-Brewing-Issues&p=3966876#post3966876 (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?241367-Incivility-And-Other-Brewing-Issues&p=3966876#post3966876)

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

We a have jobs, we have wives, we have families, we have decades of learning and habit to overcome, and so we do the best that we can and we sacrifice.
And yeah, some of us have come late to the game and need to unlearn decades of habit and training. . . .

I'm not interested in arguing any further, but I DO want to say that everything you listed is true of every woman I know (online and offline) who transitioned as an adult, which is all but one of the transitioners I personally know.

Personally, I had/have a career I love, I was not married but had a committed partner of 10 years (who I lost), I have a family I love that I put through a lot (and they still struggle), and I had 3.5 decades worth of time spent "living as a man" and trying to make the best out of a situation I assumed there was no solution to.

[Marcelle]

Good morning all,

Goodness . . . such agony over what is obviously a topic we can all agree to disagree on and beating the horse back from the dead only to beat her to death again is never going to resolve it. The OP (look down . . . look way down the thread) was recounting an experience which befell her which was harrowing and scary and to be honest one which could happen to any of us irrespective of who we are TS, CD or gender fluid. It saddens me to see this turned into another “us against them” or a “who gets the right to use what” thread when there is no need for it to occur . . . I know ever the optimist :).

Folks, IMHO nobody wins . . . we all lose. Does this mean we are all fighting the same fight, have the same experiences, live the same lives or fight the same demons? No. TS folk are fundamentally different (note I said different) from CD folk in the same way CD folk are fundamentally different from gender fluid folk. Nobody is an extension of another, CDing is not a gateway expression to being transsexual and gender fluid doesn’t mean you can’t identify as a woman some days and a man another. It simply means we are different and no better or superior from one another. However we do all share one common ground . . . we just want to live our lives in relative peace and happiness . . . end state.

If happiness means transitioning complete then so be it but, if it means dressing up pretty in private and doing stereotypically feminine pursuits then, all the power to you. However, if we can’t have empathy for each other knowing that embracing the suck of being who we are is a difficult row to hoe, then again . . . we all lose. Everybody hurts, everybody struggles and nobody is in a position to say my pain/struggle is more justified than yours. The lonely CDer who sits at home each night frightened, alone and crying because she cannot face the world . . . suffers. The transwoman who loses everything to transition suffers. The 50 something transgender person who wants desperately to be who they need to be but can’t because of family obligations and security . . . suffers.

Having empathy doesn’t mean we agree that we are a big happy collective fighting a common fight nor does it mean you should expect everyone to claim you as a kindred spirit. It simply allows you to temper your posts/comments/quips with an understanding that what seems irrelevant to you (based on your own experiences) can be very real to the other person and vice versa.

Cheers

Marcelle

[Lorileah]

this has gone on long enough