Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces

[Zooey]

I said a thing in another thread (which has since been locked, and reasonably so) that I want to discuss more. The original thread was talking about it in the context of bathrooms, but we can talk about it in the abstract. This is officially the last time I will say the word "bathroom" in this thread.

I want to talk about women's spaces, and the right of men to enter them. I'm not talking about statistics for what happens (or doesn't happen) when men DO enter them. I'm also not talking about what's practically enforceable and what's not. I'm talking about the underlying principle.

I believe that trans men are men, and trans women are women. I believe in self-identification, and I definitely believe in full-time social and medical transition. I believe that all women should have access to women's spaces, and the same for men in men's spaces.

I also believe, because people make it very clear here all the time, that most of the CDs here identify as men. They may like to adopt a "feminine persona", wear traditionally feminine clothes, or even use a historically feminine name, but they identify as men.

So, we have men who feel entitled to women's spaces. If you are one of them, why do you feel you're justified in claiming this entitlement?

Is it that you believe you have the right simply because you're unlikely to cause (what you see as) a problem? I would ask, should a person without a driver's license be allowed to drive a car anyway, just because they bought one and have played a lot of racing video games?

Is it because you believe that men are more likely to react negatively and/or violently to things? If so, why should we introduce men into women's spaces?

Or, alternatively, is it that you aren't actually men? I'm entirely happy to debate what we should do with "non-men/non-women", so you don't have to tell me you're a woman. Just tell me you're not a man.

[Jenniferathome]

I have never read , here, that a man (cross dresser) is entitled to ALL spaces designed for women. Cross dressers should NOT have access to any space that is designed for women AND avails no privacy. A bathroom stall has privacy. A locker room does not. It think it's really easy to recognize the difference and I seriously doubt any cross dresser would expect access to said locker room.

[Zooey]

Jennifer, presently the women's space (in the case you brought up) starts at the outer door. I want to know why self-identified men feel entitled to enter.

Again, this is regardless of the configuration of the space, or the likelihood of a problem arising.

[Mylie Taylor]

Hi Zooey. What bathroom do you use and why?

[Zooey]

I use the women's bathroom, because I am a woman. My legal identity also reflects that.

[nothingclever]

In all honesty, I have felt entitled to use the men's room when my bladder was full and the line to the ladies' was long. Are we headed for some sort of police state? Am I going to have to present my ID everytime I need to use a public restroom? If you're presenting as a woman, go where you feel safe. If you're about to pee your pants go wherever you can get. I mean, how certain do I have to be before I get to demand someone prove their gender? Sounds like tall women are in for some trouble....

[Zooey]

I would also imagine, nothingclever, that you considered using the men's space as an exception in exceptional circumstances, as opposed to the rule?

I want to be clear... I'm not asking whether or not it's a problem for CDs to be in a women's space in most cases, nor am I advocating for some kind of a police state. I'm trying to understand why male-identified CDs feel entitled to have access to women's spaces as a rule.

[nothingclever]

I think it would pretty exceptional circumstances to be presenting as a woman and using a men's room. Maybe I'm too liberal for my own good, but I would rather a person who appears to be a woman safely use the same bathroom as me than walk into a men's room and become an instant target, which is something I think is very possible. As a woman, surely you understand the danger that could present.

How do you propose to regulate bathroom usage?

[AmandaM]

I don't know about other CDers here, but when I dress as a woman, I identify as one. Even if I didn't, I wouldn't go in a men's room dressed in drag. That's a no-brainer. The only CDers that do, are looking for stalls with men in them. Der.

[Mylie Taylor]

You should say "some male identifying crossdressers". Not all of them use women's spaces. And Amanda M that is simply not true.

[Zooey]

I don't know about other CDers here, but when I dress as a woman, I identify as one.

Can you define what "identifying as a woman" means to you here? I'm not sure that I understand having an identity that is contingent on what you're wearing.


How do you propose to regulate bathroom usage?

I'm not proposing any specific regulations. I would propose that if the entitlement comes purely from safety concerns with men, then we need to address safety concerns with men. Perhaps by providing more gender neutral or single-use spaces, or alternatively by starting to actually do something in society about the pervasive culture of toxic masculinity.

[Mylie Taylor]

"Pervasive culture of toxic masculinity". I immediately think of male dominance in the animal kingdom, so maybe it's the pervasive nature of toxic masculinity, which would mean we would have to change millions of years of evolution and genetics. Luckily humans have the option of just being nicer if they really want to.

[nothingclever]

I really am trying to understand your perspective, but I don't think a CDer feeling entitled to use the ladies' when presenting as a woman is a true example of toxic masculinity.

[Zooey]

I wasn't suggesting that, although I could argue that the kind of male privilege I think that entitlement can (in principle) entail would qualify. Regardless, I was suggesting that our culture of toxic masculinity is a big reason for their lack of safety in men's spaces.

[nothingclever]

I see, I did misunderstand you. It seems your concerns are more philosophical while my concerns are more practical. I really believe that a straight male CDer (from my limited experience and from what I've read here) often really identifies as a woman when they are dressed as such. I don't think that is the case when they are dressed in masculine attire. So, even by your own argument those CDers who identify as female only when dressed meet the criteria for using spaces specified for women. As long as they are presenting as women and identifying at that time as women. Yes?

I would like to say that I agree with you. I believe that we are perpetuating a rape culture here in the US and trans people are at risk just as much, and in certain situations, even more so than genetic females. Until that is not a reality, where should a CDer go to use the restroom? Where she might be targeted for assault or where she looks like she belongs and is unlikely to face danger?

[Zooey]

I'm not so sure. For one, gender identity is not contingent on presentation. Butch women are still women. Gender expression is contingent on presentation, but is very different from gender identity. Drag queens dress extraordinarily feminine, but in most cases they never identify as women (even while presenting as one).

For another, I think that if in fact they DO have a non-binary or truly fluid (which I admit to being dubious of) gender identity, then I would argue that they are not really men. As I said, if they identified as not-men, this would be really interesting. Most of them, however, identify very strongly as men. Or, at least, they say they do, and defend it vigorously.

[nothingclever]

My ex defended his masculinity strongly. Until he was dressed. Then, in every aspect from name, to pronouns, to the way she spoke about herself, she was female. So, as long as she was dressed, she was female. As soon he changed back, he identified as male. So, she meets your requirements when she's dressed. He doesn't when he's not. It would seem gender isn't black or white 100% of the time. There seems to be a segment of the human race that isn't all male or all female. Should they be regulated to the proverbial back of the bus because they aren't one or the other?

[Zooey]

I think we're talking about different forms of identity here, and so I'm not sure I agree. What you're describing to me sounds like somebody who adopts a fairly complete persona when they choose to "dress", but that's very different from innate identity. Innate gender identity is not constrained by clothing changes.

So, either...


It was a well developed persona but he was still a man
Their actual identity was something else at all times, which makes it very confusing that they would so strongly defend their masculinity just because they weren't wearing a dress at the time.

[Rachelakld]

So a few issues where I stand from as a CDer (gender fluid)

1) being in female mode in the "mens space" is likely to end in a hospital visit, but if we enter the "female space", then no one goes to hospital.
2) What happend to "white only spaces" or "blacks only spaces", do you also support this discrimination or have you/we mentally evolved beyond this perconception?
3) when there is a big queue for the "ladies space" how many will jump ship to the empty "mens space" - lots if they are smart, I've seen it in many countries and many venues and not a single male has had an issue with it that I'm aware of.

So, am I a man - not in the normal wood chopper / bush man / Rambo version
- not in the womanizing drunk version
- not in the high sexed shag anything version

Which version of "man" pops into your head when you use that word.
If it's good provider, gentle, loving, passionate, caring (okay starting to sound a bit girly now) - well I probably be close to this feminine version of "man"

[nothingclever]

To be honest, I don't think you or I can know definitively what a CDer feels like when they're dressed. I choose to take their word for it if they tell me they identify as a woman when dressed. I watched a man transform into a woman and I have to say, it didn't look like a well developed persona, it looked like a transformation from male to female. You and I have always known that we are women, so we can only approach this theoretically. I stand by my theory that a person can be both male and female if there is something in their psyche that is triggered by adopting the presentation of one or the other. I would also guess that some may feel the need to defend their masculinity because society tells them not masculine=gay. Again, this is just a theory.

[Suzanne F]

I think that Melissa is trying to say you can't have it both ways. If you are adamant that you are a man how can you demand or expect entry into women's spaces? I was faced with this when I claimed to be a crossdresser and I did use the women's room. Now I soon realized I was hiding and that I had known all my life that I was female. I have crossdresser friends I am out with regularly but we usually are in places with unisex restrooms. I don't know what the practical answer is but if you are claiming your male privilege maybe you shouldn't then claim refuge in the lady's room.

[Zooey]

Exactly right Suzanne.

[nothingclever]

Male privilege certainly exists and is dangerous in our society. No arguments here. What I'm trying to say is a CDer is not identifying as a male when dressed and therefore is not claiming male privilege. I don't think a CDer is employing a double standard if she truly feels female when she's dressed. It's not my understanding of gender, it's not yours, but I can't dictate anyone's identity....


For the record, as a girl, I've been trained to have it both ways from the cradle.

[Stephanie47]

OK, this still seems to be centered around bathrooms and locker rooms. Maybe it also includes changing rooms when trying on clothes.

So, Zooey, please define the exact difference in your mind between gender identity and gender expression. I posted in another thread one should define exactly the terms that are going to be used. I do have thoughts on your abstract thoughts, but, I really have not seen a clear and concise definition of either term.

[Zooey]

Gender identity is your innate sense of gender. "I am a woman", "I am a man", or perhaps "I am neither a woman nor a man". It comes from within, and IMO does not come and go. It is what you are. It is not contingent on presentation.

Gender expression is the stereotypical gender traits that you present outwardly, and so it is wholly contingent on presentation. Clothes, mannerisms, your name, etc. are all aspects of gender expression. While for most people expression and identity largely align, they don't always. Exhibit A - this forum.

As I said above...

Butch women are Women, whose gender expression trends more masculine than is stereotypical for Women.

Male-identified CDs are Men, whose gender expression sometimes skews feminine to an extent approaching that of stereotypical for Women, but is otherwise skewed masculine approaching stereotypical for Men.

Or, maybe they're not. Maybe they're not Men. But right now, the majority of them insist that they are, and I respect self-identification. Hence, the conundrum.

[Amanda M]

With you, Rachael. Food for thought..... what makes a trans woman a woman. Certainly not SRS. That is simply a re-arrangement of external characteristics! So, what is it? Your genes, your DNA, your chromasomes remain as before.

I do admire transwomen. They have gone through a lot to get to where they are, but all this harping on about I'm a woman, your just a CD, and you cannot come into my space is beginning to wear a bit thin!

[Zooey]

Forget about whether I think you should be in women's spaces or not.

If you identify as a Man, why do you feel entitled to enter women's spaces just because you're wearing a dress?

[becky77]

I can't get my head around gender-fluid but that doesn't mean it's not real however if you're gender-fluid then you are always gender-fluid therefore not male?

However I don't buy into this idea that you dress female and become female, there are three (that I can think of currently) reasons for this:
1, You are actually TG, TS or Gender-fluid therefore NOT male and you are living with some form of denial (that was me at one point although I never thought of myself as male), we have a lot of these on this particular forum and some need to redefine their idea and maybe let go of the identity of male.

2, You know you are male but the fantasy is so strong you feel entitlement to women's spaces and put your own needs above everyone else, you tell everyone you feel like a woman because that's easier to admit to rather than accepting you have a fetish. These kind of people are likely to not respect the space, which is basically doing anything other than sitting to pee, washing hands and leaving so as not to give anyone a reason to feel awkward. They would also typically dress and act as a fantasy sexual ideal of their idea of a woman and might think it's ok to take selfies in the toilet as a souvenir or worse get some kind of sexual thrill. I don't feel comfortable with this kind of person using female facilities.

3, (I believe this is prevalent) You are in deep denial of your feminine or bisexual feelings and rather than accept those feelings are part of your personality you compartmentalize them and hide them behind a persona. I see this a lot and it's from those with a more sexist idea of masculinity and femininity (possibly with no idea the thoughts are sexist because it's learned behavior), where being feminine can only be expressed when dressed because the masculinity mustn't be jeopardised (most likely ingrained from upbringing). "I'm straight but when dressed I think of being with a man" clothes don't do this, an internal denial of sexuality does.
They maybe number 1 but don't realise or number even number 2.

Then the rarer category of those who Cross dress but are honest with how they feel, they know they are male but have accepted their crossdressing for what it is just another part of what makes them tick. These people know they don't belong in the ladies toilet but use it because it's the only safe choice. Because they know they are male they are in and out and respect the boundary they have HAD to cross and don't act with entitlement.
I feel pretty comfortable with this type using the facilities because I understand their necessity.
Personally I would rather a Crossdresser sat to pee in the stall next door and was clean and respectful then left safely. Than either have them use the male toilet and get beat up or have gender neutral toilets.

My issue with Gender neutral toilets is that sadly typical men don't care about pissing all over the seat.
Your average CDer or TG? (we're specifically talking about those out and about rather than closet fetishists who rarely would be out using female facilities) isn't a typical man and are more likely to be extra careful in the ladies hopefully because they are sensitive to the feelings of the women in there.

If you have ever used the ladies and stood to pee, why? Why would you do that can you imagine how unpleasant that is for the other users?

@Rachelakld what does that picture prove? To me it proves you are taking pictures in the female toilets which is just odd? Ask yourself why you took that picture in there.

For me the question is about boundaries, if you are male identified but out dressed and have to go toilet sure use the ladies but remember you're there because that's the only option not because it's your right. Because of that be respectful, be discreet, be clean don't give anyone a reason to attack the community that's all we can do.

[nothingclever]

This might seem stupid, but I don't understand. It's understood that in terms of sexuality, there are three common orientations: homosexual (always turned on by same sex), heterosexual (always turned on by opposite sex) and bisexual (turned on by both sexes) yet gender is defined primarily as male and female. Is it really so farfetched that gender could be fluid, or bigendered...I mean a man can't identify as a man when presenting as a man and also identify as a woman when presenting as a woman? In equal measure. It seems enough people have claimed to feel this way for it to be at least possible. Like I said, that may be a stupid question, but I don't know that it isn't possible that some people really do feel this way.

[Zooey]

It's a fair question, and I'll be the first to admit that to the extent people have said they feel that way here, I struggle to really get it. Here's what I do think I know though.

There are some people who identify as a non-binary gender. Neither man nor women. I get this in concept, even if I can't relate. If you are this, then you're not a man or a woman.

There are some people who claim to have a fluid identity - man sometimes, woman other times. My big problem here is that, when it's discussed, the explanations for the claim of shifting identity are often 100% expression based. I do not believe that identity is tied to expression in that way, so I'm dubious.

Within that fluid group, there are some who may state that they are men sometimes, but do not seem to "claim/defend their manhood" to a large extent. I still don't get it, and I personally think it's more likely a not-man/not-woman identity with shifting expression based on mood, but in any case I am more able to accept it in these cases.

Then there are a lot of CDs who claim to be fluid, but from how they talk about their dressing and their manhood, their fluidity seems to be more or less entirely on the expression side of things. Anecdotally, these folks "read" very clearly as men to me here, especially in terms of how they think of and perceive womanhood and/or femininity. I would lump the vast majority of the CDs here into this category, even if they don't use the word fluid to describe themselves.

[nothingclever]

Couldn't the expression be what triggers an identity shift? I don't get it either, but I really do think it's possible. I have a really hard time telling someone that they're not who they think they are because for the life of me I can't give any good reason for believing I am who I am. I just am. Maybe I'm just too tired to think. I hope someone who feels this way will weigh in, maybe give some insight!

[Zooey]

They've tried. I still don't get it. I might never get it. Ultimately though, I don't have to get it - they do. I'm just one person, so who cares? They will fight for themselves if it's worth it.

Like I said, while I have personal opinions on the details, ultimately to me the minimum bar I can relate to for entitlement to access a women's space is that you not be a man. I could get into concerns I have in general about the differences between people who run on testosterone vs. people who run on estrogen, but that is a whole other can of worms.

When CDs defend their manhood vigorously, and/or casually say really demeaning things about women, they make it far more difficult for me to accept them as "sometimes women" or even "not men". Anybody with more than a superficial understanding of the experience of being a woman in the real world would never say a lot of the things that get said here.

As Suzanne said, you can't have it both ways. It's not that you can't be fluid, even if I don't get it, but you can't be a sexist/misogynist man and also expect me to accept that you're also a woman or should have access to our spaces.

[Kate T]

@ Nothingclever

You have way too many clever things to say to keep that name :). I agree with you completely.

@ Zooey

I just can't agree with you Zooey despite also really just NOT getting the whole gender fluid thing. But there are people I know and respect who claim and genuinely behave that way. Are some CD's genuinely gender fluid?? I don't know. What about the TS who has not yet understood his/her gender? S/he will often identify even to him/herself, or at least try to, as CD / Genderfluid / TG. Are CD's / Genderfluid / TG in danger of physical abuse if they use private spaces not consistent with their presentation? Without a doubt. Do they pose a risk of causing either physical or psychological harm as Jennifer suggested in private spaces? I'm not sure they do. As Jennifer suggested non private communal spaces are more problematic and if that individual does NOT identify full time with the specific gender of the space concerned then I would agree they should NOT be there. However how will we decide the gender of a transchild other than on their word? They have no legal proof of gender, no physical or medical proof of gender usually we have only their word. Which is all we have for our CD / TG / Genderfluid friends.

For some time now the law in Australia has been very simple. You use the facilities appropriate for the gender you are presenting as. I would add to this you go to the toilet, you don't have chats, take selfies, do an entire outfit change just for the "experience". If we could all grow up about this, on both sides, it really isn't that hard.

[Zooey]

Just to clarify again, I'm not talking about what the law should be here. I'm talking about the underlying philosophy of the entitlement. I think safety is a weak argument when discussing the underlying philosophy, for 2 reasons.

1) if men are so dangerous, why should they be entitled to women's spaces too, just because they put on a dress?
2) if men's spaces were safe for men in dresses, would they still feel entitled to access the women's spaces?

[Rachelakld]

I would ask, should a person without a driver's license be allowed to drive a car anyway, just because they bought one and have played a lot of racing video games

Is a woman with XY chromosomes really a woman?
does XY just need boobs to be a woman?
or womb?
or all of the above and a male partner?
And then we can call XY a woman - really?

We blurred the lines between races and it's worked out best for the world.
women are constantly blurring the lines on traditional male roles and it's working well (even when 2 gay women raise children)
so now finally....
men are bluring the gender roles as well - and "females" don't like it (because we're stomping on their traditional roles).
Women - "Heads they win, tails males lose"

Lets just install unisex squat toilets, we all lose, and be done with this discussion.

[Zooey]

Rachel,

A woman is a woman because they are a woman. Trans women are women because they are women. Woman is our identity.

Here you're talking about roles. Roles are not identity. Roles are expression. I love a man who can cook, is good with kids, and doesn't mind cleaning. That doesn't make them a woman.

I would love to hear your response to Becky's post, part of which was in reply to you.

[becky77]

In regards to Gender-fluid I am ignorant and therefore try asking questions, my issue is there is a lot of self denial in some answers.

It's strange how so few people understand what identity really means.

I can understand someone that is fluid in expression.
But in identity?
My main struggle is this (I would love someone to try explain it to me without using expression/clothing).

Let's say you are fluid and on Saturday you wake up feeling like a woman, so out you go and join some female friends for a chat everything is lovely until something happens and one of the girls is subjected to sexual discrimination.
Now because you feel like a woman on Saturday you are going to absorb that feeling and understand how it feels, perhaps you and a friend go to complain to the manager and he isn't interested and worse he talks over you and down to you. Maybe you never noticed male privilege before but now you do.

It's now Monday morning and today you are a man and you have a big meeting, there is one woman in the meeting and she has an idea but she is totally talked over by your male colleagues her idea is forgotten because no one thinks her opinion matters.

What do you do?
a) You're fluid you're a guy currently so sorry sweetheart it's a man's world....today.
b) You've experienced first hand how that is from the woman's perspective so you won't take it anymore.
c) You've never acted like that because you think differently.

My issue is unless you are a) which I see as borderline personality disorder, there will be a bleed over of experience which very quickly will have your experiences merging into one identity.
Leaving only the need to express a need to feel masculine somedays and feminine others. Again this is expression rather than identity.

Someone on here (fluid identified) once said some real male chauvinistic comments and when I questioned it they said "Well yes I was a guy that day".
Honestly how can someone go from understanding being female one day to sexist male privilege the next?
I think they can only do that if they have never experienced feeling female in the first place.
Or split personality.

Marcelle was the first person that I felt was genuine fluid because I could feel the woman in her words but turns out she was TS in denial.
As an example Gendermut intrigues me, somedays spot on understanding and other times not so however is that because I'm actually experiencing the subtle change of a fluid personality that one day I can identify with and another time I can't.

I don't know and probably never will.

I would love to see a study on it.

[AllieSF]

Men are not so dangerous, in the majority, and the same can be said about women.

Men's spaces are not necessarily dangerous for men in women's clothing, but there is a real risk that they are.

If society as a whole accepted, not just tolerated men in dresses, which they obviously do not and can not be expected to do in the near future, then, maybe, this would be a non issue, ideal world versus the real world.

It is interesting to talk about philosophical topics sometimes, but this issue is not really that, it is real for most of us and people on both sides of the argument are looking for a real resolution. This is not an ideal world and will never be so. Are you looking for an ideal solution, or for everyone to agree with you that in the USA, in particular, maybe the UK too, women have special privileges that do not exist in some other countries, i.e. communal toilets?

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Zooey,
I've been out (full dressed ) before, and had drinks, dinner, desert, more drinks...
And the whole time holding it in, not to mention the drive home (I dare you to do it with a full bladder!)
Anyway, after being out a few times, and with all this bathroom bill crap going on, why shouldn't we
(us male crossdressers) be using what YOU know should be the proper restroom?
I don't think there should be any question as to who belongs in which room.
Although, if some chic expressed her discomfort with me being in "her" restroom,
I'd have to give her some space and wait outside.(provided I could hold it a bit longer?)
Much Love,
Kristyn

[Vickie_CDTV]

I always found it odd that people assume that average men in the men's room will automatically respond with violence if another man who looks "different" enters. Not get odd looks, dirty stares or even a passing rude comment, but there will always be violence. If you are in a reasonable, decent public place, I cannot imagine that random men in a men's room are more likely to immediately respond with violence to a man en femme (not a perceived threat), than a mother with young children in the women's room would be to respond with violence.

For what it is worth, I don't feel entitled to anything in life. Even using a men's room on private property is a privilege not a right. I don't want to use a women's room, I have in a pinch, but I don't want to and try to avoid it (and will not use it if children/young women are in there.)

[Connie D50]

You didn't address the point nothingclever made. ( but I would rather a person who appears to be a woman safely use the same bathroom as me than walk into a men's room and become an instant target, which is something I think is very possible.)

Perhaps by providing more gender neutral or single-use spaces, or alternatively by starting to actually do something in society about the pervasive culture of toxic masculinity. These of course are very good points however I see no fast solution to solve these problem.

I hate the fact that the bathroom issue has come to this point. (we have much bigger problem)

[Genni]

Since we are talking about this in the abstract, why should anyone feel entitled to decide there should be "women's spaces" or "men's spaces" at all? Is that the same person or group that determines what fabrics, styles, or colors one should wear based on their chromosomes? Assuming a reasonable level of safety and privacy, why should it matter?

[samantha rogers]

This is a fascinating discussion. I'd like to throw in two thoughts.

All of this is prefaced on the idea of "women's spaces". An area to which only women are entitled entrance. Historically and philosophically, one may make an argument that this concept is a relic of Victorian paternalism and sexism and totally outdated in a modern, post feminist, egalitarian society.

But on another level, I think we all have a tendency to view others through the prism of our own experience and feelings, as though the experience of another person must be similar. I'm not sure that is adequate.

I've made clear in other posts that I believe the concept of dividing lines between sexual orientation and gender ( ie gay/bi/straight or male/female) are an oversimplification of the human experience. I simply do not believe in a binary of any kind when it comes to what goes on within the human brain.
Of course there is a male female biology, but what of it?
Our (Transgender) existence is predicated on the idea that true gender identity is something within ourselves and not determined by the genitals and chromosomes with which we are born, isn't it? So, once we accept that gender is something within our brain, then why does it follow that gender must be either male or female? or a third gender defined as either/neither?

My friend teaches a university level gender studies class. One exercise she engages in with students is to have them list male attributes and female in two columns. She then proceeds to demonstrate that every item listed in either category is truly neither male nor female exclusively.

I don't believe in absolutes. I believe in the ever more complicated existence of multiple degrees on a spectrum, both in gender and in sexual orientation. I think only this spectrum explains humanity adequately. Yes, some are all the way at the female end of the pool and others all the way at the male end. But I think a lot of people lie somewhere in between, and may not always remain in the same place.

So, I guess I reject the idea of entitled spaces based on gender and the idea of black/white gender identity. At least philosophically. Practical reality is a different matter. But this is a theoretical discourse, right?

[AllisonS]

Because they have to pee?

Why do people feel entitled to judge how it feels inside another human being?
Why did "blacks" feel "entitled" to drink water from a water fountain? (they get thirsty)
Since you claim to be framing this in the abstract, if your premise is true, there must be many other examples of "men feeling entitled to enter women's spaces". What are they?

Just as the general population is (only) beginning to understand that "race" is a myth, so too they will come to understand that the gender dichotomy is simplistic and misleading. Boys are boys and girls are girls... patoooey. Racism is only possible by first falsely asserting that human races are real and clear distinctions among people. They are not. Mixed-race people are threatening to a racist's worldview. Similarly, gender variant people may be threatening to a genderist's worldview. I don't know. It seems so.

[JenniferMBlack]

As crossdressers most of us are afraid to tell our friends and families let alone some person we don't know so going into a men's room scared the crap out of them . If you had a secret you wouldn't tell the person closest to you and it could be reviled to several strangers by simply walking into a room how would you feel about going into that room? Or you can go into another room and your secret is more likely to stay safe. Which would you choose?

Is it entitlement or self preservation? To the point I don't use woman's spaces for the most part, the exception being a woman's only clotheing store I may use the changing room to try on clothes. Not because I feel it is wrong but because I am personally uncomfortable doing so regardless of how I am presenting. I will make every effort to find a restroom where I can be the only one in there or I will use the men's room if I have too.

[Jenniferathome]

Jennifer, presently the women's space (in the case you brought up) starts at the outer door. I want to know why self-identified men feel entitled to enter.

Again, this is regardless of the configuration of the space, or the likelihood of a problem arising.

The BOTH the configuration and likelihood of problems ARE significant in this discussion. Privacy or lack fit, is THE issue. Privacy defines what is reasonable and what is not.

The outer door is NOT the definition of where the space begins. It is only inside that matters. As I have stated before, a public toilet houses several private spaces. Whether it is has a male symbol or a female symbol on the door. Anyone inside that space can have personal privacy. When I am cross dressed, who am I more likely to offend? And this is a choice I have to make. What LOOKS weirder? I have to make this choice too. I choose to use the private space that offends the least, and looks the least weird. That happens to be what matches my presentation, in either mode.

[Stephanie47]

If you identify as a Man, why do you feel entitled to enter women's spaces just because you're wearing a dress?

You answered (#25) that I posed (#24) as to the difference between gender identity and gender expression. I believe you (?) or some believe gender identity, whether it be female or male, must be felt 100% of the time. Or maybe why do I or any man choose to wear a dress anyway. There really is no logic for a man to wear a dress, is there? OK, at Halloween as a goof. But, we're not discussing Halloween. Can you really give me a reason why a man chooses to underdress? Is there any reason for a man to head off to work with a bra and panty and hosiery on? I bet you do not have an answer for it. Me? Until I read about underdressing on this site, I never tried it. I decided to give it a whirl. I donned a bra, camisole, panty and hosiery and went about my day shopping. I forgot I had female clothing on until I felt the binding of the bra. What a waste! No thrill at all. What ever causes me to wear the full armor of a woman; bra, panty, slip, hosiery, dress, heels, wig and makeup does not materialize with underdressing.

I've stated numerous times on the site, when my wife asked why I do what I do, I told her I do not know why I like to wear women's clothing. As a man it makes absolutely no sense. To chance scorn; ridicule; loss of friends, family, employment; everything...why?

I understand there are women who are "trapped" in a male body....the wrong body. And, there are men who are trapped in a female body. Me? I'm comfortable in my maleness. So, the dress? I have some thoughts about it. My wife has some thoughts about it. I've voiced it some times on the site. I think I got one denial to believe the possibility because it flew in the face of that person's religious belief. Or at least western Christian belief....which includes the teachings I was raised with.

I feel comfortable at times wearing a dress and everything else. It's more than just comfort. There is a necessity. Yes, there is stress relief brought on because there is something in my inner self that arises for some reason to break away from my maleness. I bet you cannot understand it because you are a woman trapped in a man's body and you feel discomfort about it. It's mismatch. Cannot it be that I do not have a total mismatch?

I have ventured out sometimes attired as Stephanie. Would I venture into places society has designated for women attired as a woman? No. Why? Because Stephanie seems to arise to alleviate stress, and, tempting fate in a women's room just is counter to why Stephanie arises in me. Just like underdressing, venturing out appearing as a woman is overrated for me. I'll just stay home. I do not ascribe to the proposal that I am truly a woman in self denial.

The legislature in the State of Washington has toyed with this idea of gender expression and gender identity. My right to use the ladies' room and ladies' locker room is addressed in the Revised Code of Washington (RCW) at RCW 162-32-060(1) through (4). It states as relates to "gender-segregated facilities" a person may use which ever fits his or her "gender identity" or "gender expression."

I do not wear women's clothing for a lark. There is an innate need for me to wear women's clothing and portray myself as a woman...on occasion, but, not full time.

[Jenniferathome]

In all honesty, I have felt entitled to use the men's room when my bladder was full and the line to the ladies' was long. Are we headed for some sort of police state? Am I going to have to present my ID everytime I need to use a public restroom? If you're presenting as a woman, go where you feel safe. If you're about to pee your pants go wherever you can get....

Beautiful! I didn't see this response when I answered Zooey but this really states the obviousness of the answer.

And again, this comes back to public toilets. Do cross dressers, regardless of how they identify, enter locker rooms? No. Changing rooms in department stores? Yes, because THAT location afford privacy.

Privacy is the issue, not women's spaces nor men's spaces, generically.

[Amy Fakley]

oh dear lord. "women's spaces" ... can someone name another "women's space" other than a restroom, locker room or changing room? I can't.
We say we're discussing this in the abstract, but we're not. We're talking about freakin' bathrooms.

So, since we are actually talking about public facilities, let's get real for a minute.
Why do I feel entitled to use the public facilities reserved for women when I am dressed as one?

My female presentation entitles me to it, the same as it does for anyone else presenting female. That is what these facilities are for, they are PUBLIC facilities for use of female members of the public. When I am out in public in girl mode, I am a woman in as much as that all the ways I am technically, biologically not a woman are nobody's damn business but mine.

A point I made recently in another thread, bears repeating. The social convention of having gender separated public facilities is to protect the user from the public, NOT to protect the public from the user. The pictogram on the door with the lady wearing a dress should mean nothing more than "if you look like a woman, this is the safest place for you to pee and you're welcome here".

indeed, that's all it did mean until recently and everyone was ok with that.

[Thictoria]

Does it really matter what toilet you use as when through the door you go to your own toilet with a door and lock! I to have used a male toilet because womens lines are ridiculous!!!! I was escorted out and told they could call the police as is a form of sexual harassment (only in England) lol I don't really care who uses same bathroom as me wether they be man, woman, cder, chicken,pig or goat as is private once the toilet door is locked!!

[Dana44]

Here is an abstract thought. Male bathrooms are hard for males as sometimes when we are at a urinal the hair comes up on your neck and you are watching your back as you do not feel comfortable. Yeah any one else ever felt that. So lets see I am a woman trying to pass in the public. Heels skirt, nice top long natural hair. If i am dressed that way why in the world would i walk into a male bathroom.

[becky77]

Privacy is the issue, not women's spaces nor men's spaces, generically.

Privacy and cleanliness. Privacy isn't really an issue in the women's because of separate cubicles which just leaves cleanliness.
Yeah there's some filthy women but it's far less likely than the men's.

The irony of a female only space is that it's actually less safe imagine late in the evening and a guy follows a woman into an empty ladies, she is now very vulnerable as there definitely won't be any other guy in there to help. If a sexual predator wants to risk violence he doesn't need to dress in women's clothes he just needs to await an opportunity.

I don't know of any of my female friends that would go alone into a public toilet late at night, same with getting into a cab on your own.

Safety is not the issue here it's just a red herring to flame hate.

I've never seen a CDer acting up in the female toilets, seems a rare thing to me and therefore simply incredible it should be such a huge topic.
My experience is only in the UK though and we're pretty polite and reserved generally.

[Mayo]

In an ideal world washrooms would be gender-neutral and there wouldn't be any problem. In our less than ideal world, where the possibility of violence against those who do not conform to gender norms is real and significant, personal safety becomes an issue. Given that our society teaches both women and men to reject non-traditional gender presentations, it comes down to a practical decision by the male CD as to what level of hostility he's prepared to accept in picking a washroom - quite frankly, the CD generally runs less risk of harm in the women's facilities.*

Once the choice is made, the risk of causing concern to the women using those facilities is then dependent on how well one 'passes' (also related to perceived gender markers and lack of acceptance of non-traditional presentation) - if nobody recognizes you as a man, there's no real (i.e. practical, as opposed to theoretical) issue. While I think that, in theory, male-identified CDs should use the men's washroom and putting on a dress in no way 'entitles' one to enter a women's space, the actual choice is a series of decisions based on pure practicality - risk of violence vs possibility of causing offence or discomfort. I think these are pretty much the same issues faced by trans people in their bathroom choices.


* I concede that gender power dynamics might also play a role here, in the sense that a male CD in a women's washroom may be less likely to generate an actively hostile response simply because he is a man, i.e. intimidating or perceived as dangerous.

[Sarasometimes]

Becky,
How quick you were to lump gender identity an sexual preference together (they are separate and unrelated) and you twice state denial and deep denial in your choices. how did you come to learn of this denial condition?
Zooey,
Which space would you feel entitle to use if you look like a man but are really a woman and there is no concern for your safety? Both spaces are guaranteed safe and equally clean, but you would be open to ridicule and you can be approached about why you are in that space? when you enter that space everyone will know that you are not presenting for the space you are in.

could a CD here question why you feel entitled to enter this part of cyberspace when you don't meet the stated criteria? Now of course we do welcome all here so that isn't a problem.

[Zooey]

Hi everybody. I can't respond to everything that came in overnight, but there are a few points I'd like to address (a bit out of order). I really am trying to talk about this in the abstract, because while I recognize the safety issues men in dresses feel and the practical realities of what works/is enforceable in the case of bathrooms, there is a very interesting can of worms being opened here and there are things that IMO should be questioned and reconciled. I'm talking about "women's spaces", rather than a more specific example, because this is the can of worms being opened. If A is okay, then why not B? If B, why not C? And so on and so on.

It is a slippery slope, and I want people to understand the gravity of what's actually being discussed right now in the context (mostly) of one space. We are discussing whether women are allowed to have spaces free of men, and vice versa.

A lot of people here want this forum to be a men's space, and bristle any time a woman is present and deigns to insert their honest perspective on what's being said. Meanwhile, a lot of men here feel that we are stuck up or superior for not simply accommodating them when they come in and disrupt in the TS forum, too often saying some really hurtful things about women, and especially trans women.


oh dear lord. "women's spaces" ... can someone name another "women's space" other than a restroom, locker room or changing room? I can't.
We say we're discussing this in the abstract, but we're not. We're talking about freakin' bathrooms.

Yes, I can. Women's social groups, women's fitness classes/clubs, women's retreats, women's organizations in the workplace, etc. All of these are examples of women's spaces. Many of these spaces exist to provide comfort and safety for women, whether that be physical or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when men are around. At what point are women not entitled to have spaces free of men? Is it the point at which a man decides they're better off in there?


As crossdressers most of us are afraid to tell our friends and families let alone some person we don't know so going into a men's room scared the crap out of them . If you had a secret you wouldn't tell the person closest to you and it could be revealed to several strangers by simply walking into a room how would you feel about going into that room? Or you can go into another room and your secret is more likely to stay safe. Which would you choose?

So, to the extent that men may feel entitled to choose a women's space, should women feel obligated to accommodate? Are we obligated to help those who are, by your description, literally trying to avoid "getting caught" by letting them in because they may have an easier time of hiding in our spaces?


To the point I don't use woman's spaces for the most part, the exception being a woman's only clotheing store I may use the changing room to try on clothes. Not because I feel it is wrong but because I am personally uncomfortable doing so regardless of how I am presenting. I will make every effort to find a restroom where I can be the only one in there or I will use the men's room if I have too.

Why do you feel personally uncomfortable with doing so?


The outer door is NOT the definition of where the space begins.

Why? The outer door is where the indicator that says "women's space" is located. Again, I'm actually fine with switching bathrooms in particular to be gender neutral and taking down the signs, but that door currently demarcates a women's space. Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?


Or maybe why do I or any man choose to wear a dress anyway. There really is no logic for a man to wear a dress, is there? <snip> Can you really give me a reason why a man chooses to underdress? Is there any reason for a man to head off to work with a bra and panty and hosiery on? I bet you do not have an answer for it. <snip> What ever causes me to wear the full armor of a woman; bra, panty, slip, hosiery, dress, heels, wig and makeup does not materialize with underdressing. <snip> I do not wear women's clothing for a lark. There is an innate need for me to wear women's clothing and portray myself as a woman...on occasion, but, not full time.

Some of you are purely sexually motivated, and that is especially problematic when considering entitlement to women's spaces, but my personal belief on the matter is that many of you are not men. You aren't necessarily women either, but you're not men. If a bunch of you were to suddenly start talking about it in those terms, and consequently stop defending your manhood both directly and by discussing femininity and the lives of women in such demeaning regressive ways, then we would find ourselves in a very different place. The more often somebody asserts their identity as a man, the less reasonable it would seem to be to allow them into a women's space, regardless of what they're wearing.


Which space would you feel entitle to use if you look like a man but are really a woman and there is no concern for your safety? Both spaces are guaranteed safe and equally clean, but you would be open to ridicule and you can be approached about why you are in that space? when you enter that space everyone will know that you are not presenting for the space you are in.

Like masculine-leaning women around the globe, I would use the women's spaces. I would also expect to get challenged if I am presenting in a way that is in stark contrast to what's expected. Anybody who chooses to buck convention too much should expect stares; it's the price of truly being yourself, and I'm very familiar with it.


could a CD here question why you feel entitled to enter this part of cyberspace when you don't meet the stated criteria? Now of course we do welcome all here so that isn't a problem.

The rules of this forum in particular are very clear. If there was not a rule that specifically told me that this was the place for everybody to discuss general issues, then I would not be in here, or at least would feel really hesitant about doing so. Believe it or not, I already DO feel hesitant.

[Alice Torn]

i do not identify as a macho, "male privilege" male. In fact i have always been single, a virgin, and considered gay by some. I do not like the term "male privilege". As many males i know have done suicide, over rejection, loneliness, being misunderstood, tortured mentally and emotionally. Who has to go signup for selective service, for the draft,in case of war? So much for equality!! Who pays for alimony, and child support, after divorce, often forced to live in their vehicles, because they won't have enough money for rent?" There is a place near Rockford, Illinois, called "Womanspace". No place called "Menspace! There is just as much "women's privilege" in this modern time, as there is "men's privilege", only a bit different. Sorry i got off the topic just a little. Truth is, no one knows the heart and soul , mind, and intentions of each crossdresser, and for that matter, any other person, regardless of gender! There are a tiny number of CD pretenders, who really are going into ladies rooms, to take photos, put mirrors down low, to peep. But they are not true crossdressers at all! They give all of us a bad name, and make women angry at all of us. I am a blue collar, but a bit feminine male, but pretty much ASEXUAL. I have little libido , and even when i had a women want me to have sex with her, I could and would not do it. Everyone of us dressers is different, a little or a lot, just as every real woman is different a little or a lot. I have used single use ladies room, in drab, but one time, boys chided me for using the wrong restroom!! I told them it was empty, and when you got to go, you got to go! I feel somewhat like a woman, when presenting as one, dressed modest and ladylike, and I would consider it extremely hazardous to my health, to go as Alice into a multi-use men's room. I try to avoid multi-use restrooms, period! I also think all multi-use restrooms, should have totally enclosed stalls, mening doors annnnnnnnd walls from ceilings to floor, no gaps, for COMPLETE PRIVACY!!

[becky77]

I didn't lump them together, I used each as an example of denial. The sexuality example is much easier highlight, never said they were related.

I know all about denial been there done that and recognise it in others.
We are taught to feel shame about anything that contradicts masculinity if born a man.

[suzanne]

Are you talking about bathrooms only, or do you mean to include other spaces like fitting rooms in a dress shop?

I, as a crossdresser who makes no effort to present as a woman, have never entered the ladies room. But I am a frequent user of fitting rooms. Before doing so, I always ask a staff member if it's OK. I have never been refused. In fact, I am most often met with an enthusiastic "Yes!" Does this count as an abuse of male privilege?

[Alice Torn]

Vickie CDTV. Well said. A mother with small children in the ladies room, will be far more fierce, if she detects a man in a dress, than most men in in a mens room! I also would rather hold it all day, that go into a multi use ladies room, Unless i knew for sure, it was empty. Leaving a ladies room, after doing my business, would be less hard, than entering one, not knowing if moms and kids, or other females were present. I would never consider entering a girls or womens locker room. That is surely a womens space! Vickie, Right!

[Zooey]

i do not identify as a macho, "male privilege" male. In fact i have always been single, a virgin, and considered gay by some. I do not like the term "male privilege". As many males i know have done suicide, over rejection, loneliness, being misunderstood, tortured mentally and emotionally. Who has to go signup for selective service, for the draft,in case of war? So much for equality!! Who pays for alimony, and child support, after divorce, often forced to live in their vehicles, because they won't have enough money for rent?" There is a place near Rockford, Illinois, called "Womanspace". No place called "Menspace! There is just as much "women's privilege" in this modern time, as there is "men's privilege", only a bit different.

This is some serious MRA junk right here.

Of course you don't like the term "male privilege". You're a man, and to admit that you have it causes you problems. Having privilege does not mean your life is easy, or that you don't have problems of you own. It just means you have privilege in certain ways. Male privilege is unquestionably a thing, and your claim of women's privilege is frankly silly. Women do have privilege, but our privilege does not extend to institutional and systematic benefits in the way that male privilege does.

[Nadine Spirit]

We are discussing whether women are allowed to have spaces free of men, and vice versa.

Except that we are not talking about the vice versa are we? What is the title to this thread? Oh yeah, that's right - Male Entitlement to Women's Spaces. Which is clearly leaning towards the idea that men feel an entitlement to anything they want, because they want it. So really we are talking about male privilege right? The privilege to take anything they want whenever they want.





Yes, I can. Women's social groups, women's fitness classes/clubs, women's retreats, women's organizations in the workplace, etc. All of these are examples of women's spaces. Many of these groups exist to provide comfort and safety for women, whether that be physical or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when men are around. At what point are women not entitled to have spaces free of men? Is it the point at which a man decides they're better off in there?





Are there still spaces that exist solely for men, completely devoid of women? Because some men feel a need for comfort and safety, whether that be physical, or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when women are around? At what point are men not entitled to have spaces free of women? Does it sound sexist when we reverse the genders?

I personally think it sounds sexist regardless of the gender. Maybe that is because I am one of the few who considers themselves as existing outside of the gender binary. Maybe because of that I see many of these binary gender discussions for what they are - divisive and sexist.

[samantha rogers]

Word, Nadine 😊

[Jenniferathome]

...Why? The outer door is where the indicator that says "women's space" is located. Again, I'm actually fine with switching bathrooms in particular to be gender neutral and taking down the signs, but that door currently demarcates a women's space. Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?...

I don't redefine it as a man nor as a cross dresser. That little sign says, "if you look like this, enter here." If it were really a "woman's" space, it would have a picture of a woman's brain. But, since all brains look alike, the next best thing is outward physical appearance. And PRIVACY is what dictates logical usage. If the original intent of that little pictogram was for genetic women (and I am sure it was), how then do you, as a trans-woman, justify using that space?

So, let me ask this of you Zooey. I will use two members here as examples because both have written about their physical changes: Suzanne F and Melissa (Bad Tranny). Suzanne has no external male genitalia. Melissa still has her penis. BOTH are women who identify as such and live their lives as such. Both enter the local women's locker room at the gym and strip naked in the changing area. Are both equally accepted by the other women in the "women's space"? Will both be equally comfortable being naked in this woman's space?

It is simply not enough to state that how one identifies is the criteria for entry to a "women's space." Privacy is paramount in the discussion. I completely understand that you want to separate yourself from cross dressers. You show that in everything you write. Between your ears, you are a woman and between mine, I am a man. But no one can see between our ears. So logic dictates that we choose the next best alternative: outward presentation. When my outward presentation is male, I follow convention that would include NOT using a woman's locker room even when cross dressed as my OUTWARD (naked) male appearance would dictate such.

[Rhian]

Legally in the UK public bathrooms are legally considered a public space and as such the signs are merely guidelines. Women often flout those guidelines when the queues in the their toilets are too long and nobody bats an eye lid so why should iy be any different when a man wants to use a bathroom with a picture of a woman on it. If it was up to me I'd make all bathroom gender neutral.

[Mayo]

Some of you are purely sexually motivated, and that is especially problematic when considered entitlement to women's spaces. Absolutely agreed, and this is where some self-reflection and consideration for others is important. Any person (male or female, but we all know it's mostly males) who enters any space (gender-segregated or otherwise) for non-consensual sexual purposes shouldn't be going there in the first place. In the context of this discussion, however, I'm going to assume that people just need to pee.


The outer door is where the indicator that says "women's space" is located. Again, I'm actually fine with switching bathrooms in particular to be gender neutral and taking down the signs, but that door currently demarcates a women's space. Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?
Why does a woman get to redefine the borders when the women's is full up and she really needs to pee? I realize that's not quite the same thing because there's a power imbalance when we're talking about men accessing women's spaces and vice versa, but my point is that there are occasionally situations in which the rules are bent (either way). I consider the issue of personal safety for CDs to be one such instance simply because their gender presentation (though perhaps not internal self-identification) blurs those lines.


We are discussing whether women are allowed to have spaces free of men, and vice versa.

Women's social groups, women's fitness classes/clubs, women's retreats, women's organizations in the workplace, etc. All of these are examples of women's spaces. Many of these groups exist to provide comfort and safety for women, whether that be physical or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when men are around. At what point are women not entitled to have spaces free of men? Is it the point at which a man decides they're better off in there?

So, to the extent that men may feel entitled to choose a women's space, should women feel obligated to accommodate? Are we obligated to help those who are, by your description, literally trying to avoid "getting caught" by letting them in because they may have an easier time of hiding in our spaces?
I unequivocally agree that many other women's spaces (e.g. open changing rooms, women's shelters, support groups, etc.) should restrict access to those who identify as women, with no obligation to accommodate. The importance of having unique, demarcated and safe spaces for marginalized groups (women, POC, etc) is expressed very well in Chrystos' poem Those Tears (https://resistracism.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/those-tears/). But bathroom access for gender-nonconforming people - CDs included - is, I think, somewhat of a special case.

[Amy Lynn3]

Nadine nailed it in her closing comment. These hair splitting topics are nothing more than divisive and sexist.

[Mayo]

Are there still spaces that exist solely for men, completely devoid of women? Because some men feel a need [...] to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when women are around? [...] Does it sound sexist when we reverse the genders?
Sure there are. And no, it doesn't sound sexist. Some people who decry 'political correctness' simply want to be able to freely express their misogynist, racist and/or homophobic ideas without the risk of having those pesky minorities nearby to call them out on their BS. Safe spaces for women are places to escape sexism and misogyny, whereas 'safe spaces' for men are places to express it. Not the same thing at all.

[Zooey]

That little sign says, "if you look like this, enter here." If it were really a "woman's" space, it would have a picture of a woman's brain. But, since all brains look alike, the next best thing is outward physical appearance. And PRIVACY is what dictates logical usage. If the original intent of that little pictogram was for genetic women (and I am sure it was), how then do you, as a trans-woman, justify using that space?

First, if that little sign is based on presentation, then should butch women and women in pants be going in there? The original intent of the pictogram was "women". I obviously believe that, through further science and learnings, we have expanded the definitions of both "men" and "women", but they are still the defining gate for those spaces.


So, let me ask this of you Zooey. I will use two members here as examples because both have written about their physical changes: Suzanne F and Melissa (Bad Tranny). Suzanne has no external male genitalia. Melissa still has her penis. BOTH are women who identify as such and live their lives as such. Both enter the local women's locker room at the gym and strip naked in the changing area. Are both equally accepted by the other women in the "women's space"? Will both be equally comfortable being naked in this woman's space?

Very interesting question, as I happen to consider them both friends, on and off this forum. So, I'm going to be obnoxiously direct about their situations by way of example here, because I know they'll understand when we talk about it.

IMO, Melissa looks more conventionally feminine (passable) than Suzanne does, ignoring her genitals. Suzanne has a vagina. If you saw both of them and didn't see their genitals (because they changed with a towel), then many women would be more accepting of Melissa. If they saw both their genitals, many women would be more accepting of Suzanne. So, in the end, I think they are both equally accepted on average, with differing experiences in individual situations. How comfortable THEY are in there is up to them. Nobody can rely on others to make themselves comfortable.

Also, to be clear, both of them are beautiful.


It is simply not enough to state that how one identifies is the criteria for entry to a "women's space." ... So logic dictates that we choose the next best alternative: outward presentation.

Personally, I agree that it's not enough to simply state your identity. I disagree that outward presentation is the next best thing, because we actually do have a way of legally recognizing gender identity, given certain reasonable criteria are met.

As I told Allie, I have no problems with our law in California that uses outward presentation, and would vote for it again, because in practical terms it doesn't cause a problem and solves a few, even if it does create some philosophically uncomfortable cases. That doesn't mean it's not worth exploring the philosophy.

[Alice Torn]

Zooey, With all due respect, if i had been a "normal" male, I would have violated the woman i was with, and had sex. i respected her privacy enough, and I remained a virgin, and have not had any sex, with any woman i dated. I am sorry you are offended. I know it must be very difficult for you, and you have issues with CDers. But TS were all CDers at one time, too. Why not try the Serenity Prayer. Higher Power Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference. A good idea for all.

[Shaedow]

Zooey, you said "Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?" My question to you is, do YOU as a MAN get to define the borders of a woman's space?
You may feel, & identify, as a woman, but you are not, nor will you ever be, a REAL WOMAN.

Shaedow,
A REAL GG

[Zooey]

Alice, declaring that "normal males" can't help but to violate women sexually when the opportunity arises is not helping the case of men here.

Fortunately, I do not consider you or what you're talking about here to be representative of the men here.

[Mayo]

Zooey, you said "Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?" My question to you is, do YOU as a MAN get to define the borders of a woman's space?
You may feel, & identify, as a woman, but you are not, nor will you ever be, a REAL WOMAN.

Shaedow,
A REAL GG
Wow. Troll much?

[Zooey]

Ah, Shaedow... There it is.

I will never be a cis woman, but I am a woman. Some cis women feel this way, and there's likely nothing I can tell you to convince you otherwise. I currently have effectively no testosterone, run on estrogen, live and work as a woman with all the accompanying bullshit, and my doctors agree that I am predominantly female in all respects except reproductively, but yes - I was not born with a uterus, ovaries, or a vulva. Nothing I can do will change that, and I'm sorry if it's not enough for you.

[Shaedow]

Wow. Troll much?


Just so you are aware, Mayo, I am not a troll but a legitimate GG member of this forum who chooses 99% of the time not to respond. But, sometimes, I just cannot tolerate some posts.

[Thictoria]

Personal question zooye and feel free to not answer it but before you became the women that you always knew you were and we're transitioning what bathroom did you use and if was male did you feel safe in it? I think we as women have a softer more excepting side to us and most of us don't mind!

[Shaedow]

Ah, Shaedow... There it is.

I will never be a cis woman, but I am a woman. Some cis women feel this way, and there's likely nothing I can tell you to convince you otherwise. I currently have effectively no testosterone, run on estrogen, live and work as a woman with all the accompanying bullshit, and my doctors agree that I am predominantly female in all respects except reproductively, but yes - I was not born with a uterus, ovaries, or a vulva. Nothing I can do will change that, and I'm sorry if it's not enough for you.

Zooey, I appreciate your well thought out & defined response. Thank you.

[Suzanne F]

Ok I was waiting for this response. I expect everyone of my cross dresser friends to stand up to this Shadeow comment. After everything I have faced I will not be told I am not a real woman. The stares, the lost friends and family, the coming out at work, the risk of losing my cherished wife, the countless hours of pain of hair removal, the sheer terror of traveling in the south, the pain of physical procedures you can't even contemplate and then someone has the nerve to say that. I have laid it all on the line to claim my womanhood and I will be damn if someone will say this. We can disagree about lots of things here but my womanhood is non negotiable because I have paid for it in ways you will never know!
Suzanne

[Zooey]

Please explain why you cannot tolerate this one. Is it because you feel I am appropriating your position? Speaking for you?

While I disagree, why is that any less tolerable than some of the men here imposing outdated and repressive notions of womanhood on you? While I make a claim to womanhood that I feel is justified (you may disagree), why is that any less tolerable than self-identified men feeling entitled to women's spaces?

[arbon]

My question to you is, do YOU as a MAN get to define the borders of a woman's space?
You may feel, & identify, as a woman, but you are not, nor will you ever be, a REAL WOMAN.

Shaedow,
A REAL GG

This is the curse of being a transitioned woman, we are invalidated by the great majority people from both sex's. We are not real. People wonder why we can be so bitchy.

It is why so many choose stealth, hiding their past.

[Stephanie47]

I think a lot of this discussion is nothing short of baiting. I have yet to find anyone being able to definitely state what makes any man or woman tick. If I am not 100% man or 100% woman, then what am I? A hybrid? There are societal customs and norms that are dictated by the majority. Much of that is codified into law. That is something that may change, and, to some extent has changed.

You state some of us are not men nor women. So what am I?

Why are there trans women?
Why are there trans men?
Why are there gay men who are exclusive with other men?
Why are there lesbians who are exclusive with other women?
Why are there men and women who "swing" either way?

Society throws up all sorts of answers. It's in the genes! It's personal choice! It happened in the womb! It happened in the nurturing process of raising a child? It was the result of mental or physical abuse! Take your pick!

None of us truly know. And, many people will adhere to a cause because it most closely justifies what they do.

If you are going to adhere to the premise that many of us are "just men who like to wear women's clothing, stuff a bra, put on makeup, wear a wig or grow out hair," then believe it. Your opinion has no more value than any other opinion. Frankly, when I don a dress and heels, the whole nine yards (male term?) I do not feel like a man in a dress. And, since I was not born as a genetic woman I cannot say I feel like a genetic woman.

I'm just happy the State of Washington has codified the gender issues to include gender identity and gender expression, whatever that may be.

[Nigella]

It is why so many choose stealth, hiding their past.

Or worse,

[Zooey]

Personal question zooye and feel free to not answer it but before you became the women that you always knew you were and we're transitioning what bathroom did you use and if was male did you feel safe in it? I think we as women have a softer more excepting side to us and most of us don't mind!

I used both, and I didn't feel terribly safe in either one.

In the period before beginning transition, I used the men's room because I hadn't really accepted who I was.
In the period before living full-time as a woman, but while on HRT, I used the men's room at work and the women's room elsewhere, usually with my cis women friends. I felt uneasy in both.

Since my legal changes got done and I went full-time, I use the women's room exclusively, and feel no unease about it.

[JamieG]

Yes, I can. Women's social groups, women's fitness classes/clubs, women's retreats, women's organizations in the workplace, etc. All of these are examples of women's spaces. Many of these groups exist to provide comfort and safety for women, whether that be physical or the freedom to express ideas that too often get them in trouble when men are around. At what point are women not entitled to have spaces free of men? Is it the point at which a man decides they're better off in there?


Have you heard of incidents of strongly-male-identified crossdressers trying to enter these other spaces? Aren't you really just talking about bathrooms and fitting rooms? Heck, how many strongly-male-identified crossdressers do we know who have entered those spaces? I suspect the number is pretty small.

I would argue that most of the crossdressers who go out in public do have at least a blurred gender identity. And I don't think it's the putting on the dress that causes them to identify as women (as you suggest); when they identify as women, they put on a dress. By the way, I identify as bigendered, so thanks for doubting the authenticity of such identities in a previous post. I don't go out en femme very often, and when I do, I usually try to avoid using any public restroom. On the rare occasion where I've used the women's room, I sat down to pee, flushed, washed my hands and got out. If I thought I was going to make anyone uncomfortable, I would have held it.

By the way, I think you want to be careful talking about male privilege here. Yes, it is definitely thing, and yes I have benefited from it. But so too have many transwomen. In fact, isn't this the argument that some womyn's festivals use to exclude transwomen? I.e., the transwoman wasn't raised as a woman, so she doesn't belong? I think this is hogwash, but do you see how your argument is dangerously close to this? Prior to her transition, every transwoman was perceived by others as a man, and reaped the same benefits that cismen do. Maybe she was encouraged to study math and engineering, taught to speak up for herself, had her competitive spirit nurtured, could go for a jog late at night, etc. Now of course, after transition she no longer experiences privilege, but she still reaps some benefits from the privilege she once had. If you focus on male privilege as the thing that makes "men" different from "women", are we saying that transwomen who transition at a younger age are more "woman" than other transwomen? Is the transwoman who transitioned 20 years ago more "woman" than the one who started her journey yesterday?

By the way, I've never cared for male chauvinist BS, and I am an active ally of women in my workplace. All of my CD friends are sensitive caring people, and don't go around disrespecting women either. So when I hear you paint us all with a broad brush, it gets my dander up.

[Shaedow]

Zooey: Because personally (i.e. in my perspective only) I struggle to accept that men can assume the identity of & speak as if they represent all womanhood, cutting down cd's & others who have not fully transitioned in the process. As for "self-identified men feeling entitled to women's spaces" I guess I am just not a flaming feminist. I live my life not paying particular attention to how others are living their lives unless it is blatantly put in my face. Please consider, as I was told many years ago, equal does not mean fair. And vice versa.

[IamWren]

Ah, Shaedow... There it is.

I will never be a cis woman, but I am a woman. Some cis women feel this way, and there's likely nothing I can tell you to convince you otherwise. I currently have effectively no testosterone, run on estrogen, live and work as a woman with all the accompanying bullshit, and my doctors agree that I am predominantly female in all respects except reproductively, but yes - I was not born with a uterus, ovaries, or a vulva. Nothing I can do will change that, and I'm sorry if it's not enough for you.


Zooey, I appreciate your well thought out & defined response. Thank you.

I've been following this thread earnestly. It's extremely interesting and quite frankly it is one of those that is helping me learn more about myself. The logic, the reasoning, the examples and analogy are great but what Shaedow said...

that's not nice Shaedow. Not nice at all.
Zooey's response was one that was filled with much more Grace than I think could have mustered and I applaud her for that.

There has been so much said in response to the original post that I'm not sure I can intelligently add much value. Just wanted to be one of those CDers who would stand up to that comment. However it seems as though they have made nice.

Please carry on so that I might learn more.
Hugs,
Sayyidah

[Thictoria]

Thanks for answering. You must understand why a cder would feel safer in the ladies then surely? Most have said they would ask to use fitting room and had been granted access without prejudice.

[Zooey]

By the way, I identify as bigendered, so thanks for doubting the authenticity of such identities in a previous post.

Let me be clear, I don't understand those identities. At all. I can't see them. That does not mean they're not real. I try to acknowledge and respect it as best I can. Like I said, if a person is willing to at least identify as "not a man", that's enough to be going on with for me at this point.


By the way, I think you want to be careful talking about male privilege here. Yes, it is definitely thing, and yes I have benefited from it. But so too have many transwomen.

I have benefited from it. I was never told not to study STEM, and I was rewarded in my career because of how people perceived me. IMO, it's incredibly important to acknowledge the cases where we have benefited from it, and many trans women do themselves and other women a disservice by not doing so. My goal is for ALL girls and women to experience the same benefits that I did growing up, and I work hard in my industry to help make that happen.


By the way, I've never cared for male chauvinist BS, and I am an active ally of women in my workplace. All of my CD friends are sensitive caring people, and don't go around disrespecting women either. So when I hear you paint us all with a broad brush, it gets my dander up.

Right - "Not all men". I KNOW "not all men" are like that, but when "basically no men" publicly stand up to the ones that are, including on this forum, then it's still a problem.


Zooey: Because personally (i.e. in my perspective only) I struggle to accept that men can assume the identity of & speak as if they represent all womanhood, cutting down cd's & others who have not fully transitioned in the process. As for "self-identified men feeling entitled to women's spaces" I guess I am just not a flaming feminist. I live my life not paying particular attention to how others are living their lives unless it is blatantly put in my face. Please consider, as I was told many years ago, equal does not mean fair. And vice versa.

I don't speak for all women, much less all trans women. A lot of trans women disagree with me on a lot of things. I speak for me, based on my life experiences and learnings thus far, and this is a philosophical issue that I am passionate about.

I also will gladly own up to being a flaming feminist. ;)

[Rachael Leigh]

I in no way feel entitled to any women's space as a man I completely respect them and their personal privacy.
If I'm out and I'm presenting as a woman yes I prefer to use the women's room and have and yes I've also used the women's dressing area and usually I ask before I do that.
I'm one who also would protect any women or child I I felt they were in danger and feel even if I'm dressed they should be protected.
I do not feel I should be allowed in women's space if I'm dressed as one but do feel I'm not any harm if I do I hate how the media has blown this thing up and made us out to be some kind of danger.

[AmandaM]

I'm not sure that I understand having an identity that is contingent on what you're wearing.


Simple. Amanda is 50% of my identity. She wants to be the dominant identity at times. She doesn't like combat boots.

[Zooey]

Amanda - if "she" is 50% of your identity, and just happens to be the dominant aspect at times then...


Why do you talk about it in the 3rd person?
Doesn't that mean you're not really a man?


By your description then presumably, even when presenting as a "man", you're still 50% "woman" right? So... are you a "man"? If I take your statements at face value, then I would say no.

[Helen_Highwater]

A woman is a woman because they are a woman. Trans women are women because they are women. Woman is our identity.

There are many who would challenge the second part of your proposition. As Rachel points out surgery and HRT bring about physical changes but chromosomes remain the same. We've all heard the argument that a Transwoman is a man after plastic surgery. Not a point of view you'll find much support for here I'm pleased to add.

I must admit to being uncomfortable with your idea that cd's seeking access to female toilets do so from a position of male privilege. What about F2T CD'ers using male toilets. Do they claim some sort of privilege? I don't seek access to female toilets as a right or privilege, I seek access as a person, an individual who in presenting as a female wants to do what we all need to do and that's, well you know what.

Go to France and this discussion is unnecessary. Toilets are often dual access. One door separate facilities, urinals and cubicles. What we're debating here is just a mindset.

I agree with Jenifer that it is a wholly different situation if we talk about open area facilities such as sports changing area's. But that's to do with recognising the unease that females would undoubtedly feel if male genitalia were on display. This would be true if the person were pre-op Trans even if they wholly believed themselves to be female.

[Jenniferathome]

Zooey, you said "Why do you, as a man, get to redefine the borders of a women's space?"
...

Shaedow, given your polarizing view of this situation, and I in no way mean to judge your position but out of curiosity what rest room do you believe a cross dresser should use?

[Dana44]

Okay enough said. One thing is clear, transsexuals are under the transgender umbrella and that states on the wiki forum that any person who struggles with their identity is a transgender from gender fluid to a third sex and transsexuals are all under that umbrella. So ladies, we are all in the same dang boat we need to work together and put this effort into a focused realization.

[Zooey]

Helen, I've stated in a number of other threads that I believe bathrooms in particular should be transitioning to gender neutral facilities. I don't think they need to be segregated by gender in the way that our countries currently do it.

Saying that bathrooms should be gender neutral spaces, however, is very different from saying that men in women's clothing should be entitled to access women's spaces. Hence, this discussion. I don't actually care that much about bathrooms themselves, or at least not enough to keep me from voting for laws like the one we have in California. That's why I want to talk about women's spaces, and gendered spaces in general, which extend well beyond just bathrooms and other similar facilities.

[AmandaM]

By your description then presumably, even when presenting as a "man", you're still 50% "woman" right? So... are you a "man"? If I take your statements at face value, then I would say no.

I guess you could make that case. When I am in man-mode, I rarely feel completely male. When I am in female-mode, don't anyone dare call me a man. I've always identified as somewhere between CD and TS. Maybe Amanda is dominant. But in today's world, and my lack of female bone structure, etc., I won't seriously contemplate transition and have to deal with living in non-stealth mode. I'll stay on Prozac, thank you. So, I guess the answer to your question is, I am not a typical man-in-a-dress.

[Lorileah]

Forget about whether I think you should be in women's spaces or not.

If you identify as a Man, why do you feel entitled to enter women's spaces just because you're wearing a dress?


OK I am halfway through the thread. My head already hurts for the BS that people are throwing. I will submit and it was asked before and not answered How do you KNOW that the person entering the space is a man is a dress? And how would you propose to define this on a split second notion while this person is entering the space? Name tags? ID cards?

I understand where Zooey is coming from. Yes it gets confusing when you read a thread and ONE person out of 50 says "I am a man, I'll always BE a man and I like dresses" so that leaves 49 who dress (on this site only as I know damn well almost every other site out there is a hook-up MfM or a fetish site but they are beyond our control) who, when they dress and present as a woman feel they ARE a woman. Now we can argue all day (and it seems this must be the day) how one fells like anything. We beat more horse here than the last furlong of the Kentucky Derby. Zooey is prodding an ox that is rare. the majority of members here identify, even if for only 5 minutes, as women. That is what it is. They are not strutting into women's spaces claiming rights. In fact the majority of MEN who are not on this site who definitely identify as manly males would never think of entering a woman's space. They are the ones who live "male privilege". I don't see many (if any) members claiming that privilege here. I see transgender people who only want to live and not be hassled in public over something that really has no bearing on the spin of the world except in a very few people's minds. Albeit we need to be aware of those radicals we also need to have self preservation.

I tire, very quickly, of the confrontational attitude that seems to be prevailing here recently. If you don't like the sand box, go play in one you do like. If you feel somehow disenfranchised stay away from those threads. Enough of this "You get I don't get" Bullshit! It makes coming on here a burden. As I said before I see enough "man" in me even after surgery, that I can understand the lay public's confusion. I can't blame them. But we don't need to throw stones at each other. We have enough problems without someone dividing the community even further with picayune details.

NO ONE has claimed it is a RIGHT here as a male to enter any women's space. The right is to use any facilities in peace and quiet without fear. I see this whole thread as oring an ox to make more fear especially in a community. No one is impinging on anyone else's life by being a CD or TS or GQ or DQ until ONE person decides they somehow are special.

I don't see this thread lasting because it has already become a TS vs CD fight and the staff doesn't need to be sweeping up all that.

[ReineD]

In the following post I use words like "should" but I want to emphasize this is an opinion and not a pronouncement. I also speak to MtFs here and I have not constructed all my sentences to also designate FtMs, but obviously everything I say applies in the reverse to FtMs too. :)

None of us are islands unto ourselves, no matter how we identify. We live among others and we have a social contract to do so harmoniously in order to prevent chaos. This is evident in all our social structures, for example if I’m going in the wrong direction on the highway, I’ll wait until an interchange or a u-turn space to turn around rather than cross the median willy-nilly whenever I feel like it. If I pull off on the shoulder, I'll use my signals rather than surprise the people behind me. If I’m in a hurry, I’ll stop at a red light even if there are few cars on the road. If I need something at the store, I’ll pay for it rather than take it, even if the item is only a few dollars and taking it would not have an impact on the store or its customers. If I do not have money in my pocket, I will come back to the store rather than just take the item. Likewise, if I live in a society that has thus far designated bathrooms/changing facilities/saunas/etc for specific genders and it is the expectation of the people who use these facilities that same-sex-identified people should use these facilities, I will respect that to the best of my ability (and yes, I have used the men's facilities at arenas when the women's line was too long to make it back to the game on time and too long for my bladder, but the few men who walked into the urinals understood and were rather amused. They were not offended nor did they feel threatened in any way).

Back to the topic, this does not mean that we cannot effect change. In the last generation our society has become aware there are indeed people who are born in the wrong body and who are transitioning to live full-time as the gender opposite their birth-sex. Authorities do need to bring this awareness to everyone including those who might take awhile to catch up, by enacting laws that allow for everyone's need to use gendered facilities according to their gender identity.

But, recognizing that innate gender does not permanently fluctuate, until self-identified gender is clear to someone, then non-female-identifying folks should not feel entitled to use areas that, in our society in this time and space, is designated for females. This means that even TSs who are still hanging on to some portion of their male identity, until such time as they peel back all the layers, should either use the men's rooms like they always have or use gender neutral spaces if they do not feel safe using men’s rooms. If they do not yet fully identify as females (if they do not yet know beyond a shadow of doubt they are TS) then it is likely they have not yet begun altering the appearance of their physical characteristics with HRT, nor have they yet changed their gender markers and legal gender from male to female, and they still live a significant part of their lives as male, which means they can be selective as to where and when to dress. But, once they do realize they are TS and they do actively begin the road to transition (the physical and legal changes other than just the clothing and makeup which eventually necessitates going full time), then they should use women’s spaces and laws do need to be put in place to help the rest of society realize and eventually accept this. Once there is overall recognition that there are indeed people born in the wrong bodies who have or are transitioning and who are indeed entitled to use the facilities consistent with their gender identity, there will be harmony once again (hopefully sooner than later among some pockets of our society like the southern US states).

And again recognizing that innate gender does not fluctuate, non-binary-identifying folks always feel non-binary, which means that fundamentally they do not feel either always-fully-male or always-fully-female. They know they are bigender, or fluid, or any other word for non-binary gender (if their identity fluctuates according to their presentation) even if they always feel the same non-binary-identity internally. Or if they always feel female internally but choose to not take steps to physically and legally transition, then they can expect that others will not see them as females. Or if they are genderqueer, they know they do not wish to present an appearance that correlates to either fully-male or fully-female (this is the definition of genderqueer). These groups of people should not expect to use spaces currently designated for people who are unchangingly-always-fully-female identified and who if they weren't born that way, are taking steps to transition which includes living full time in addition to physical and legal changes.

This argument speaks to a matter of conscience more than policing, as I understand is the intention of Zooey's thread. I’ve no idea how to regulate any of this, other than to make all bathrooms available to everyone.

But, until such time as this happens, there are plenty of neutral places to use for people who do not fully-all-the-time identify as female and who are not on the road to full-time transition.

So in a nutshell, it's rather a question of the proverbial putting your money where your mouth is. If you are female, then transition, which means active transition more than "yes, I'm female and maybe I'll transition one day but for now I choose to live part of my life as a male". And yes, there are people who for medical reasons cannot get on HRT nor do they have the money for facial feminization surgery, but my comments are not addressed to such people who I'm sure do everything they can to be recognized as women including living full time. I am rather speaking to people who make the conscious choice to not transition, which I gather is the group of people that Zooey's thread targets.



For some time now the law in Australia has been very simple. You use the facilities appropriate for the gender you are presenting as. I would add to this you go to the toilet, you don't have chats, take selfies, do an entire outfit change just for the "experience". If we could all grow up about this, on both sides, it really isn't that hard.

I had a quick look and found the Gender Center Org in Australia. There's a page on gender discrimination where they specify who counts as transgender under Australian anti-discrimination law. They are quite specific that the law covers those who are transitioning (have lived as a member of the preferred gender or are in the process of changing over to the preferred gender) or who are intersex. I don't think this covers people who identify as male when dressed male and as female when dressed female?

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/resources/fact-sheets/old/transgender-discrimination-your-rights.htm

[Jenniferathome]

First, if that little sign is based on presentation, then should butch women and women in pants be going in there? The original intent of the pictogram was "women". I obviously believe that, through further science and learnings, we have expanded the definitions of both "men" and "women", but they are still the defining gate for those spaces.

Come on Zooey, the original intent was GENETIC women. You conveniently dodged that. By the way, "butch" women and women in pants look like women to me, so yes, they should go in there. The pictogram is a generic, not an absolute. That's quite obvious. Women today use the facility in shorts, skirts, pants, .... Now, if through, "further science and learnings, we have expanded the definitions of both "men" and "women" then expansion can include vanilla cross dressers. You are on a slippery slope.


...I disagree that outward presentation is the next best thing, because we actually do have a way of legally recognizing gender identity, given certain reasonable criteria are met.....

I know you have advocated this "license to pee" idea, but that is clearly NOT the next best alternative. It's AN alternative and one that will never work. Who has the right to challenge at the door? How do I know your ID is real? It's absurd to think you can create a "pass" to pee.

[Shaedow]

Shaedow, ... what rest room do you believe a cross dresser should use?

Jennifer, I believe that men should use men's rooms. HOWEVER I am cognizant of & sensitive to the reality that this is not always safe. My cd SO uses the women's room when out dressed. Would that he didn't but there you have it.

[Zooey]

Shaedow, in that statement, you and I are wholly in agreement (our disagreement on the definition of woman not withstanding).


Come on Zooey, the original intent was GENETIC women. You conveniently dodged that.

I didn't dodge anything, and I disagree. From where I sit, the intent was always "women". Previously, "women" were assumed to be "natal females", but the intent was "women". New information has arisen, and if we accept trans women as "women" (which obviously I do, along with the medical community), then they are women. "Genetic women" also excludes a lot of cis gender women, as do statements like "women who can get pregnant", "women with breasts", "women without facial hair", etc.


Now, if through, "further science and learnings, we have expanded the definitions of both "men" and "women" then expansion can include vanilla cross dressers. You are on a slippery slope.

Sure, it could absolutely expand to include CDs, but I can guarantee you that the definition of "woman" will not likely include CDs if they continue to assert that they are "men" and are not "women". Either we respect self-identification or we don't. There are no two ways around it. If you declare your self identity to be "man", then IMO you are opting out of consideration as "woman".

[Stephanie47]

Right - "Not all men". I KNOW "not all men" are like that, but when "basically no men" publicly stand up to the ones that are, including on this forum, then it's still a problem.



You're painting with that broad stroke again. I'm approaching my seventh decade on this planet. I've lived through the years when women were told their place was in the kitchen and taking care of babies. Yes, there was a revolt by women who did not ascribe to that belief. When 14 million men were in the military during World War 2 the women filled the factories and flying airplanes (WASPs). The "Genies" were not going back into the bottle. It was still a male dominated country post World War 2, but, there was enough "Genies" teaching their sons and daughters that they could achieve anything they set their hearts on to it. It was men like me that ensured my daughter and wife were afforded the same opportunities my son was afforded. The young women I know are professionals; teachers, accountants, physicians, engineers and construction workers. And, I have encountered many many male nurses and nurse practitioners too. And teachers. Frankly, there are a heck of a lot of us men in the country who have tried to make it an even playing field for our daughters and wives. Just look at the percentages of women vs men in college these days, and, the disciplines they are studying.

Yes, there is still a problem in this country when too many men and some women do not even want to pass an Equal Rights Amendment. And, then too many women also want to maintain the status quo.

I may be off topic but use the broad strokes when painting the side of the house.

[Meghan4now]

Stephanie,

I don't think you are off topic. I don't want to start a TERF war here or anything, but from the inception of this thread, there has been an undertow of militant feminism that goes beyond equality into the "how dare you" category.

The irony is the basis for the argument has been "You're not really a woman, stay out of our clubhose" that TERFs regularly use to dismiss transom en of all stripes. You can't say you are gender fluid, because I don't think that exists sounds EXACTLY like you can't say your TS because I say that doesn't exist.

[PaulaQ]

Why do we care whether or not CDs use the women's restroom? Honestly, this discussion is much like the arguments the TERFs make against trans women, substituting *identity* for *biology*.

BTW, I asked about safety in a thread with some of those women, and they told me if I was attacked to take it up with the other men, that expecting women to deal with my problems with violence from men was an example of trying to reinforce male supremacy. These were not very compassionate women.

I hope the trans community can show more mercy.

It is very difficult not to hate people some days.

I think CDs are entitled to use gender segregated spaces with privacy like restrooms and changing rooms because of safety, because I'm compassionate, and because it is nearly impossible to distinguish between a CD and a trans woman who is starting out, or faces the inability to jump through whatever legal hoops might be created to enforce such segregation but allow us in. Because I don't believe there will BE such an exception for trans women, post-op or not.

[nothingclever]

This is some serious MRA junk right here.

but our privilege does not extend to institutional and systematic benefits in the way that male privilege does.

Actually this is not entirely true, for example there are currently 2,888 men on death row in the US and only 55 women on death row. 90% of convicted murderers are men, 10% are women. If women didn't receive "institutional and systematic benefits" the number of women on death row would be about 288....the male privilege most people generally are concerned with usually has other factors, like race and socioeconomic class...if I as a woman, entered a men's room dressed in traditional male clothing, it is doubtful I would be escorted out, but a man dressed in traditional women's clothing enters the ladies', is more likely to have security called and it some places even cited. As much as I hate to admit, female privilege does exist so does male privilege, it's a matter of context.

[reb.femme]

Lorileah,

Fantastic answer and one that I wholeheartedly support. I just couldn't be bothered in justifying myself, my thoughts and feelings to anyone and quite honestly, delving into the futile intransigence that such discussions engender.

Becky

[AllisonS]

Zooey, How do you feel about the Muirfield Golf Club... Supportive? http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2016/05/19/3779769/muirfield-bans-women/

Genderism (its not sexism it has nothing to do with sex) is the problem. Do I walk around "identifying as male". No. No more than I walk around identifying as white. Those are veneers. A male and female may have more in common than two males. An african-american and caucasian may (commonly do) share more DNA than two african-americans.

Affinity to All-Encompassing Dichotomies: The academic propensity among philosophers to create dichotomies, not recognizing the possibility that there is a continuum of which the two members may be at best end points.

[Zooey]

Just so everybody knows how I look at these discussions...

PaulaQ and I disagree on a number of things. I also think she's fantastic, and we've talked quite a bit about this and other issues. Debate is valuable. Much like Jenny Boylan and Kate Bornstein, we are diametrically opposed in some ways, but can also be friends while standing on the common ground we do have. I enjoy it when people make me think, as some of you in this thread have.


Actually this is not entirely true, for example there are currently 2,888 men on death row in the US and only 55 women on death row. 90% of convicted murderers are men, 10% are women. If women didn't receive "institutional and systematic benefits" the number of women on death row would be about 288....the male privilege most people generally are concerned with usually has other factors, like race and socioeconomic class...if I as a woman, entered a men's room dressed in traditional male clothing, it is doubtful I would be escorted out, but a man dressed in traditional women's clothing enters the ladies', is more likely to have security called and it some places even cited. As much as I hate to admit, female privilege does exist so does male privilege, it's a matter of context.

Oh, don't get me wrong. Female privilege absolutely exists, and it's equally important to recognize it.

I do believe, however, that when looking at the issues of equality in the US (for example) women have been on the receiving end of systematically engineered inequality in much the same way as people of color have, with women of color losing out BIG TIME by way of combination. I'm not trying to equate their experiences or the extent of the discrimination at all, but the mechanism of the problem's creation is similar. Ultimately, straight white cis men have some of the biggest privilege of anybody in this country, while I would argue that queer trans women of color have some of the least. There are a million other combinations strewn about in the middle.

Allison - with respect to that golf course, I assume that like most such clubs it is a private institution which is generally open only to invited members. If men want to have a space, I have no problem with that. It is also the British Open's right to state that they only support clubs which are gender neutral. I applaud the British Open for promoting equality in sports, and while I disagree with their reasons, I respect the rights of the club to make their choice. Where I would have a bigger problem with the club would be if they were whining publicly about the British Open's decision. Everybody is entitled to make a choice, but they have to be willing to live with the consequences.

[nothingclever]

So, we agree that human beings in general have a tendency to discriminate against anyone in whom they find differences. I think that's a sane perspective. I also think that knowing that, it's important that we suspend our prejudices and consider the context here. The average straight male CDer, presenting as a female, for all intents and purposes identifying as a female is not asserting male privilege by using a restroom for anything other normal restroom activities. After enduring the worst kind of victimization by male privilege, women and their male supporters have made incredible differences in societal attitudes and legal reforms. I'm thinking right now of sexual assault in the military. Now, a civilian police matter rather than an internal military matter. The fight is real and I pray sanity will prevail. Nitpicking a person's gender detracts from the real war, and like PaulaQ said....even a post op trans woman is likely to receive the same treatment as a CDer if gender is used to refuse access to a necessary public facility. Someone said something about the little person on the door, it's a picture of a person in a dress...I would expect anyone presenting as a female to use that door. It's reasonable.

[Ilsa]

For those who use to travel the open road on vacation and were dying for a gas station so they could go to the bathroom and only had one choice didn't stop to contemplate. They just went in and locked the door behind them. There was no gender stamp to complicate the situation. Solve the problem and discussion by having everyone convert their facilities to accommodate everyone with the sign labeled Bathroom and make sure there's a lock on the door!

[JasmeVee]

The biggest problem in my opinion is the labels, i'm a man, i'm a woman, its a dress, its a tunic, i'm gay, i'm hetero. (And i also do not like crossdresser) i am jasme by myself, if some dude calls me gay then i am gay to him, does this suddenly change my own outlook on myself? No. A dress is a dress, its also fabric formed to a shape that becomes a dress when its called a dress, if i form the same fabric to the same shape and call it a oobie foobie, then its a oobie foobie to me. (But still can be called anything from others)
unfortunately we need to further diversify the labeling because i guess there is a classification chart of gay/not gay enough etc....
I will say though, safety is the best option, if that is a worry. But i wont disregard the continuous fight for a woman and her rights of equality and certainly understand her feeling of intrussiveness from the men who have the world

[AllisonS]

I wonder if crossdressers can play at Muirfield... in pants :)

But, seriously, many businesses are private institutions which are open to employment by invitation only. You don't believe that discrimination is OK in that context, right? What's the difference?

[Dana44]

Well Zooey, when I am female and go to the womens room I have no unease about it either. It seems that you and only you can use the womens room. I have said that we are in the same boat and we need to work together and you keep saying I am a woman but you can not ever enter that space because you struggle with your identity. But as I said you, me are on the same boat. Why are you nicely fighting with us and not even listening to the genetic women here or any of us. BY golly where do you get these thoughts that we are men men men. You want us to say we are women. On this site i said when I came here that the majority of the CDS were women. I had to find my voice in here as I am something you don't even think exist. I have stated that in my struggle that I am more on the female side and that was a switch I was concerned about. You know not where any of us are and we just need to pee in a safe place and I challenge you to use the male bathroom because you are a woman. Yeah like me. Just cause you are.

[Zooey]

But, seriously, many businesses are private institutions which are open to employment by invitation only. You don't believe that discrimination is OK in that context, right? What's the difference?

I see where you're trying to go with this, but employment is not the same, under the law, as membership. They are very, very different concepts.


Can we please, please, please stop talking about bathrooms? I get that it's a hot topic, and I have opinions on and issues with it (obviously) that not everybody agrees with. I honestly hope that we can just make bathrooms gender neutral. I think it's the best choice in the long term, for a variety of reasons. I agree that, right now, CD men are safer using the women's room when presenting female than they are in the men's room. I also think the fact that that's true is a huge problem, and one we should all be working to solve.

I'm talking about the philosophy of gendered spaces, and entitlement to access them. Let's assume that all bathrooms have been made gender neutral - they are no longer an issue.

Given an arbitrary women's space, is a CD who self-identifies as a man but happens to be presenting as a woman at the time entitled to access that space? Why?

[JasmeVee]

No one is entitled to anything, whats the point of this?

[nothingclever]

Zooey, I think you and I are opposite sides of the same coin. We both believe there are gender issues that need to be addressed, we both realize that we, as women, face ongoing discriminatory practices in this society and we both believe that everyone should be treated equally. The difference is in our approach. You want clearly defined gender lines, I advocate total integration. Given the failure of "separate but equal" policies in US history, I believe total integration is first, most reasonable and second, inevitable. We are both passionate about our beliefs, but the truth is our philosophies aside, there are practical considerations. I think what is likely to happen is more and more you and I and our respective supporters will have to compromise until a new societal norm is established. In the meantime, it is sometimes necessary to use opposite gender spaces, for both genders. So, your passion would probably be better directed at one of the more urgent issues women are currently facing. Like, rape on college campuses or the fact that women still make a quarter less than men on average for the same jobs. The reality is, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Where someone goes to the bathroom is a media hot button, not a true gauge of the average person's views on gender inequality.

[Lorileah]

Can we please, please, please stop talking about bathrooms? I get that it's a hot topic, and has it's very own sticky


Given an arbitrary women's space, is a CD who self-identifies as a man but happens to be presenting as a woman at the time entitled to access that space? Why? Given the fact YOU don't know without a name tag, the answer has to be "Yes". How does one know? You are making very fine cuts on this. Pre-op non hormonal TSs who because of life can only present as a woman 3 hours a day? Or do we need a tag on CD's (maybe a radio collar?). And do they have to proclaim that they are 51% woman? (they and we will never be "female" that is a genetic marker unless you are Chimera or other three gene model, but that goes in a whole new direction). Or are we going to slice this so thin that the small number of CDs here who yell from the mountaintop they are MEN above all (and how do we know?).

This seems an exercise in either futility (since we already have GGs here who say even the TSs can't be women...and yet we are) and we have the TSs saying CDs can't be real. OR this is going to ust be a thread about throwing rocks and not in any one direction. Reminds me of debate class. Do we need an affirmative team and a counter? Then we need a resolution.

Resolved: men have privledge (well shoot that won't work, I think we agree on that)

Resolved: Crossdressers who dress on alternate Saturdays cannot use "Women's" designated facilities. OK how about if they don't dress at all but would like to? How about the first outing? How about when they buy the first dress?

If I have to stand on one side of Zooey's apparent resolution, then I have to disagree. There are too many random caveats. Yes, even though I have jumped the broom I have to side with the crossdresser who goes out once a year to have the right to use "safe" area that are designated as women's. I would like to exclude anyplace that allows any total nudity but that would be hypocritical.

Example, Zooey, Womyn's gatherings. You would be excluded because you are not BIOLOGICALLY female. You may have all the parts, you may have all the mind sets. Hell you may even have a lesbian lover. But you still CAN'T go. So....how does this fit in your sphere? I say, I'm a woman. They say I am not. It's their playground. Technically (unless it is on private property) they HAVE to let everyone in. Yet, they don't (ultimate privileged, yes?). I know you excluded memberships but really again, you start slicing awful thin. Just public spaces? (ladies night at the clubs?). Been debated in court, found illegal (and yet still done...mostly because the privileged males don't want to fight it). Where does one draw a line? Is there a magic moment? Honestly, open areas where males and females would be nude bothers me but that's my social stigma (even now I shudder the dressing area for the steamroom worried about confrontation).

So, where does one draw the line? Do the members here have to have posted somewhere they are men in dresses and then we put them in the corner?

[Zooey]

nothingclever, I largely agree with what you wrote, and rest assured I spent a lot of time on those other issues too - I just don't do it here. I spend a lot of time talking to young women interested in careers as software engineers who get put in touch with me by friends, to talk about gender in the game industry and how to succeed both individually and to help improve the situation. We have the same discussions in both women's and mixed-gender groups at work - a lot. I'm proud to have been able to participate in activities with Girls Who Code and Amy Pohler's Smart Girls, two groups who I think are doing incredibly important work to encourage young women to pursue their interest in technology careers.

One of the questions I'm prompting in this thread is, "do gendered spaces have value"? One important distinction that I'm making is that "gendered spaces" are not limited to "gender-segregated facilities", like bathrooms, locker rooms, etc.

Is it valid/valuable to have, for example, a women's only discussion group? If so, should self-identified men who are presenting as female at the time be included in those groups?

Personally, I think they DO have value, and I don't think that men - regardless of presentation - should be included. I think that - in general - we should look carefully at whether any space being a gendered space affords it additional value to the participants or not. Those that don't, should probably not be gendered spaces. Those that do, should be allowed to exist, and respected.

Lori, I do not try to force my way into "womyn's groups", but I will happily invite "womyn" into my "women's groups" if they are civil and willing to be respectful and debate rather than fight. I'm also not talking about whether or not I can tell what somebody is by looking at them. I'm asking why they would feel entitled to join that space in the first place, and whether or not that's appropriate.

Again, let me preface this by saying that what I'm about to say here is not specifically about bathrooms or other (currently) gender-segregated "facilities".

As far as "the line" goes, any CD who tells me they're not strictly a man is somebody for whom I'm open to the idea of accessing women's spaces, even if I'm not 100% comfortable with it. I'm not talking about saying "I'm a woman when I dress"; I'm talking about saying "my identity is mixed, I express it differently at different times, but as such I am never strictly a man".

If somebody is one of the many CDs here who do assert their manhood directly, then I'm sorry - you are opting out. By asserting yourself as "a man", you have also asserted yourself as "not a women". I'm respecting their self-identification, in their own words, in saying this.

[nothingclever]

Zooey, I really believe that our core beliefs are the same. However, I don't agree that gendered spaces have value. In fact, I think they breed misinformation and gender hostilities. There was a time in the not too distant past when these "discussion groups" and "gendered spaces" were important and necessary and they contributed to equal rights for all regardless of gender. Now, they have become a bit redundant. How can we expect men to be enlightened to the ongoing discrimination and even harassment of women when they are consistently left out of the discussion?

That said, your original premise was that straight male CDers feel entitled to invade spaces designated "women only" and from what I perceive to be the average CDers feelings on their own identity when dressed, that's just not true.

As Lorileah has said, who is qualified to judge these things? I can't.

I didn't mean to imply you weren't actively focused on improving the lives of women in other areas of society. Given your passion for women's rights, I figured you would be. I respect your passion, I just feel this particular issue is not relevant to the struggle for gender equality.

[OCCarly]

I see where you're trying to go with this, but employment is not the same, under the law, as membership. They are very, very different concepts.


Can we please, please, please stop talking about bathrooms? I get that it's a hot topic, and I have opinions on and issues with it (obviously) that not everybody agrees with. I honestly hope that we can just make bathrooms gender neutral. I think it's the best choice in the long term, for a variety of reasons. I agree that, right now, CD men are safer using the women's room when presenting female than they are in the men's room. I also think the fact that that's true is a huge problem, and one we should all be working to solve.

I'm talking about the philosophy of gendered spaces, and entitlement to access them. Let's assume that all bathrooms have been made gender neutral - they are no longer an issue.

Given an arbitrary women's space, is a CD who self-identifies as a man but happens to be presenting as a woman at the time entitled to access that space? Why?

Fair enough. I only have one thing to offer: Both times gendered spaces were created (in Biblical times and during the Industrial Revolution), they were created by men, for the specific and express purpose of subjugating women, keeping them "in their place" and restricting them, both physically and heirarchically, for the articulated purpose of "protecting" them. I don't know how old you are, but I am just old enough to remember the days of the feminist movement in the 1970's -- and the times before, when in any large office environment there was a specific women's "lounge" (usually adjacent to or part of the women's restroom). Few people other than feminists really saw the truth of this -- that this was not a special protected place for women so much as it was a gilded prison meant to keep women out of the boardroom unless they were a secretary who was allowed in to deliver papers and coffee.

Once you start letting women serve in combat roles in the military, what is the need for gender specific spaces? Why do women still need "protecting?"

Everyone who is vulnerable needs protecting, not just women. There need to be private spaces, protected spaces. But they do not need to be attached to generalized categories like gender. They need to be available to anyone who needs them, whether that person is gay, straight, transgender, crossdresser, genderqueer, needs to tend to an elder or disabled person, or has an autistic kid who is in sensory overload.

[Zooey]

I really believe that our core beliefs are the same. However, I don't agree that gendered spaces have value. In fact, I think they breed misinformation and gender hostilities. There was a time in the not too distant past when these "discussion groups" and "gendered spaces" were important and necessary and they contributed to equal rights for all regardless of gender. Now, they have become a bit redundant. How can we expect men to be enlightened to the ongoing discrimination and even harassment of women when they are consistently left out of the discussion?

I agree with much of what you said. At the same time, having participated in a lot of these discussions/meetings at work - where we discuss the same topic in both women's only and mixed gender groups - the amount of speaking time that the women receive in mixed-gender groups is far from proportional to the ratio of men and women in the group, regardless of the relative seniority of the men and women in the room. People who have learned to be door mice in mixed-gender groups often become very vocal and come up with the best ideas when they feel free to explore them without interruption or condescension.

This is a problem that spans both sides of the gender divide, but because of this I believe that women's only groups are still valuable, up to a certain point in a discussion.

Men need to be in the loop, and many of them need to learn to listen more effectively so that they can hear things from women, but women - at least right now - still benefit from women's spaces during the ideation phase. Many women do need to learn how to assert themselves better, but in order to start placing blame there we need to fix the remaining problems associated with them effectively being punished by men for doing so.

As much as I hate to draw this parallel, we're not done with affirmative action yet either. Our laws now provide for equality, but we are still hard at work on leveling the actual playing field after decades and centuries of intentionally digging ditches on one side to build mountains on the other.

Men still feel free to assume that they are the dominant force, with their tone allowed to be the "default". Just this morning, there was a long email thread sent to my entire team (200+ people) about somebody who apparently peed on the floor in the men's room. Lots of joking, making fun of the mystery individual, with crude humor, some of which was pretty offensive. Nobody called them on it - the women simply didn't comment. Watch what happens when a woman starts a whole team email thread about somebody leaving pee on the seat (not that any of us would likely send that email). I guarantee you at least one guy will respond with "unsubscribe" within 2 minutes, and that will be the end of it.

[nothingclever]

Here's my problem with this logic and it is based entirely on my own experience and is not necessarily a reflection on all women's experience:

I was born right as the equal rights movement was gaining ground. I was raised to demand equal treatment while also expecting preferential treatment all because I was a girl. I was taught to guard myself and my "spaces" from invasion by men while at the same time I was expected to be indignant if I were denied access to anything considered "male only". I realized this was hypocrisy, but I lived my life accordingly. I personally have no problem reporting sexual harassment if a man, say, implies he would like to have sex with me in the workplace. On the other hand, I will smile and bat my eyelashes when asking the same man to trade shifts with me. It's a hypocrisy I have learned because and unfortunately, I think "women only" groups perpetuate this mindset.
I have also been taught to assert myself and I know many men who are incapable of self-assertion. I don't believe these groups are safer for women to assert themselves, I have seen too many angry females shouting each other down to believe this is true.

Still, this seems to be getting off track....I believe straight male CDers most often identify as female when dressed and therefore should be allowed to use women only spaces. I don't believe they are abusing a sense of male entitlement in doing so. If they are, then I would be guilty of using female entitlement when I use their facilities and that hardly seems to cause a ripple in this sea of controversy.

Since I am not qualified to determine if a person truly sees themselves as male or female, I err on the side of caution. If you behave appropriately in a public space I accept your presence as perfectly normal. If you don't, regardless of gender or presentation, I will have a problem with you. I expect exactly the same treatment.

[Zooey]

clever, I think we agree on a lot of things, including the hypocrisy you mentioned. In the context of this thread, the main thing I think we really see differently is how we interpret an ordinarily man-identified CD's identity while dressed. Our other differences largely stem from that, I think. It's a fundamental theorem for each of us, since whatever you believe there forms the basis of pretty much all the conclusions that follow. Your conclusions make perfect sense to me if I were to accept your fundamental theorem, and I would like to think that the opposite is true as well.

So, let's agree to disagree. Thank you for some really interesting back and forth over the last two days, and if you're ever in the SF bay area then look me up and let's hang out. :)

[nothingclever]

Sounds good! I've enjoyed this discussion, I'd love to hang out, if I ever get a vacation! :)

[PaulaQ]

PaulaQ and I disagree on a number of things. I also think she's fantastic, and we've talked quite a bit about this and other issues. Debate is valuable. Much like Jenny Boylan and Kate Bornstein, we are diametrically opposed in some ways, but can also be friends while standing on the common ground we do have. I enjoy it when people make me think, as some of you in this thread have.


Yup. Love ya girl! <3 People can disagree on matters and still be friends because you know the other person's heart is in the right place, even if you both didn't end up in the same place on some issue. I wish more people could be like me & Zooey - and disagree, but still respect and care about the other person.

I didn't mean to reignite talking about bathrooms in the thread, if that's what happened. I've been sparring with folks on FB about this and after listening to the BS rationalizations for what amounts to outright hatred towards us. (Zooey isn't guilty of that towards CDs, so I hope no one takes that away from what I said. She is a compassionate woman.) Her question is a good question. My own opinion is that after seeing how easily such things are turned against us, I would just rather not have the law weigh in on something like this. If nothing else, I'm going to compare this to programming. Right now, the concept of who's a man, and who's a woman, is largely implicit in our laws. Creating a legal definition of that is fraught with peril, because it is going to interact with all sorts of laws that I guarantee you no one has thought through the ramifications of. The problem is that the "common sense" definition of "man" and "woman" that everyone wants which would be tied to biology, doesn't allow for exceptions that occur in the real world, including trans people and intersexed people. I think this is just better left alone. As an example, things tied to a birth certificate sound all well and good - except that deciding that is a judgment call by the doctor, and there are cases where people's birth certificates are recorded incorrectly. Sometimes they aren't so easy to change, either. Especially now, in states like mine, where they automatically assume you are trying to transition.

Fundamentally, where we really disagree, I think, is that I believe people should be able to define themselves. Not arbitrarily, not changing it every day. That is, gender fluid don't fluctuate between "man" and "woman", but are a different gender altogether, "gender fluid" that fluctuates between masculinity and femininity. Such alternative genders should be legally recognized, as just happened in Oregon. Personally, I don't think our gender needs to be quite so readily available on our ID documents and stuff. I can understand the need for recording it legally, but as important as gender is to me, personally, (and it is hugely important), I think we make too much of a big deal about it in our society.

The long and the short of it is that I think gender segregated spaces are a pretty dubious proposition most of the time, with only a few exceptional circumstances where they might be needed.

Also, I think despite the protestations of the masses on the forum here, many of the people on this forum have difficulty really understanding what gender they actually are. They pick "male" because of fear, privilege, and because they don't feel "female" enough to go anywhere close to the crap those of who transition go through now. If transition as children had been an option? I think what many here on the forum would say might be very different. (My guess is most would end up deciding they were some type of non-binary, and a lot of the remainder would transition.

In other words, with all the social coercion to say "I'm a manly man!", typed while wearing women's clothing, I think the assertion that most here are actually "men" is dubious. Especially given the rather hard edge definition of "men." I'd be fine with folks here taking on the challenge to expand "men" to include "feminine men" - some of the folks who go around blended all the time, not trying to pass would easily fall into that category.

So I think she and I disagree in a very ironic way. I, who advocates taking people at their word and likes very fluid definitions, am not taking a lot of people here at their word that they are men*. She, who likes more formal definitions, and is very binary, does take you at your word that you are men.

I find that to be just one more hilarious wrinkle in this whole discussion of gender, that sadly, for the most part, isn't very funny much of the time at all.

Anyway, nothin' but love for my sister Zooey!

*note: there are some here, like JenniferAtHome, and many others, who go out, are public about what they do, and generally own what they do in some manner. (Out to their wife, out in public, maybe they don't talk about all this at work, but they are taking some ownership of this.) While I might disagree with them that the label "man" is the most descriptive label for them, hey, they are out there, owning it, and if they can convince the world that what they do oughta be a valid way for men to present, then hey, maybe they'll change opinions and I'll have to eat my words. I'd be OK with that too. I believe in people's self-definition - but you need to own it, and you need to be honest with yourself and others about it. I'm understanding though, if it takes a minute to get to that point - nobody said this was easy.

[Dana44]

Well said PaulaQ.

[JenniferMBlack]

Zooey I will answer your questions from my previous post here. I don't belive woman shoul d be obligated to accommodate the cross dressers. I personally think there should be only gender neutral restrooms. Where there are many stalls floor to ceiling walls and doors that lock and a central sink area. No reason this can't be done, and it would cut down on water space a dual restroom area takes up.

You also asked why I pers I Nall feel uncomfortable in these spaces. Because I know on my best day I still look like a man wearing woman's clothes, and I identify as male. It maybe me but I feel like ib saw old be making others uncomfortable and I don't want to be doing that in a place not meant for me. Haveing said that I know others are not the same as me and don't care if they make others uncomfortable.

I will probably offend poeple with this but in my opinion unless you are liveing full time as a female and transitioning you should stay out of the women's areas as much as possible. These are my personal views. If you can't commit to a gender why should others be obligated to accomadate you when you want/ need to be a different gender. I think we are in agreement on this part. I was giving you a reason others feel untitled to it.

[Jenniferathome]

...I didn't dodge anything, and I disagree. From where I sit, the intent was always "women". Previously, "women" were assumed to be "natal females"...

Zooey, you are a politician. You can't even use the word genetic, but "natal" works for you. You actually repeated my point but swapped words. I give up. Good luck getting the world to issue pee passes. In the meantime, I'll see you at the sink in the bathroom but never a locker room.

[Tracii G]

I saw mention of male privilege and I'm still wondering what male privilege is exactly because society says its wrong for me to feel female or dress female so I can't pee anywhere now.
Physical labor I had to do because women weren't strong enough to do the job I was told,the women worked in the air conditioned office because that was womens work supposedly.
If I get pulled over by the cops I have to take the ticket or go to jail but the over sexed officer liked the fact the woman flashed him some boob so she goes free with a warning.
Again male privilege is what exactly?
Zooey women invade guy spaces all the time and nobody says anything.

[nothingclever]

"Male privilege" is usually applied when a triad of conditions exist: race (white) gender (male) and socioeconomic class (upper middle class) and is used to exert authority or to obtain special privileges at the expense of non-whites, females, or those with less affluence. That's why I still say it doesn't really apply to the question that was posed....male privilege exists, so does female privilege. It's always, always, always a matter of context.

In this context it is irrelevant. Unless you agree that public, gender specific spaces should be limited to those who are genetically whichever gender is being "protected".

[docrobbysherry]

I believe in the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus. But, that's MY reality. Since there r 129 posters in front of me and none of them live the same reality, here's my 2 cents on the OP:

My space is my space. Your space is yours. If either of us goes out of the white lines, let the other know!:devil:

[Alice Torn]

We could not even have this discussion in quite a few nations on this earth. We have so much freedom, in the west, so much rope, to hang ourselves with figuratively. Only in America!

[Zooey]

Zooey, you are a politician. You can't even use the word genetic, but "natal" works for you. You actually repeated my point but swapped words.

I specifically made that change because there are cisgender women who are XY. I'm not trying to slip things past you, I just assumed you meant people who were conventionally declared female at birth. So, "natal females".


"Male privilege" is usually applied when a triad of conditions exist: race (white) gender (male) and socioeconomic class (upper middle class) and is used to exert authority or to obtain special privileges at the expense of non-whites, females, or those with less affluence. That's why I still say it doesn't really apply to the question that was posed....male privilege exists, so does female privilege. It's always, always, always a matter of context.

That is not a view of male privilege that I am familiar with. I have always seen male privilege as a distinct privilege, which describes the societal benefits of being a man (as opposed to being a woman). What you describe is, to me, an intersection of male privilege, white privilege, and economic privilege. There are lots of men who have (and leverage) male privilege every hour of every day, but who have neither white nor economic privilege. This is one side of what intersectionality is all about.

That said, the "triad" you describe is a potent one that carries a lot of weight in our society. The reality is somewhere in between, but privilege tends to act more like multiplication as it intersects, rather than summing. It doesn't work this way, and it's certainly not so simple, but as an illustration... If each privilege component of the triad is worth "3 privilege points" on its own, your total privilege is not 3 + 3 + 3 = 9, but rather 3 * 3 * 3 = 27. A person with male privilege, but not economic privilege or white privilege is not 1/3rd as privileged - they're closer to 1/9th as privileged. When we talk about aggregate privilege stacking the deck and leading to huge differences in social power, this is how it happens.

[PaulaQ]

@TraciiG - male privilege is raping a young woman, and having the press mention that she was passed out drunk. White male privilege is getting six months for that rape while a black man would serve several years. Male privilege is hitting your wife, and people talk about how her bisexuality and how it contributed to the incident. Male privilege is the ability to walk in greater relative safety than a woman. Most of the victims of rape are women - there's another one you don't have to worry about. Men make more money, are taken more seriously, and expected to talk more.

[ReineD]

I was raised to demand equal treatment while also expecting preferential treatment all because I was a girl. I was taught to guard myself and my "spaces" from invasion by men while at the same time I was expected to be indignant if I were denied access to anything considered "male only". I realized this was hypocrisy, but I lived my life accordingly. I personally have no problem reporting sexual harassment if a man, say, implies he would like to have sex with me in the workplace. On the other hand, I will smile and bat my eyelashes when asking the same man to trade shifts with me. It's a hypocrisy I have learned because and unfortunately, I think "women only" groups perpetuate this mindset.

Nclever, I was born a few years before you and grew up in a traditional 1950s household with a mother who felt her place was in the home and who rather felt this should be my destiny as well. By the time I joined the work force in the late 1970s, there were very few women in middle management or above. Those of us who succeeded did so primarily because it was our goal and also through a refusal to consider that male work contributions were more valid than women’s, combined with a strong work ethic and our abilities … just like the men who also succeeded. I considered it a personal badge of honor to not flutter my eyelashes at a male colleague when I needed a favor. I wanted to be recognized for my abilities and not my sex and I felt this sort of behavior would not have gained me long-term respect. The handful of women I worked with who were interested in moving up the ladder behaved in the same manner. We did not seek a double standard and I do not perceive myself or the other women as having been hypocritical.

… there are indeed women who expect to use their feminine wiles, but keep in mind that for every woman who does flutter her eyelashes, there’s a man who uses his manly charms to get what he wants from women too. Charming the opposite sex works both ways. :)


There was a time in the not too distant past when these "discussion groups" and "gendered spaces" were important and necessary and they contributed to equal rights for all regardless of gender. Now, they have become a bit redundant. How can we expect men to be enlightened to the ongoing discrimination and even harassment of women when they are consistently left out of the discussion?

We do need interaction and discussion between men and women on important issues, for example the campus rape culture and gendered pay inequality, and it’s also good to have large groups of male and female friends with whom we do things socially. And thankfully there are more and more male feminists joining the ranks. But at the same time does this mean that we cannot also have gendered events and spaces? Must we eliminate the girls or boys nights out? Can women no longer have a ladies spa weekend/retreat together and can’t men get together for a Saturday sports game or other activity, without taking it that such activities further divide the genders, if there is also plenty of positive interaction between the sexes at other times?

Getting back to the thread topic, should male-identified or fluid-identified crossdressers behave as if there is no difference between them and the people who do identify strictly as women. And in a practical vein, since currently there are women who are having issues with even considering that transitioning transwomen are women (i.e. in the South), must we demand they also immediately accept that men who choose to live as men but who dress as women occasionally are also women just like them.

I agree that eliminating gendered bathrooms (our current issue in need of resolution) would solve all problems, but until we get there, how should we proceed, if not to appeal to crossdressers who identify male or fluid/bigender/etc, to use gender-neutral facilities when possible and female facilities judiciously.



Oh, don't get me wrong. Female privilege absolutely exists, and it's equally important to recognize it.

I don’t see that it exists. Men and women are different and as such some people are bound to resent perceived advantages in the other camp, but if you’re interested in reading a rather good myth-busting opinion from a feminist, have a look at this:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/01/female-privilege-not-a-thing/

[nothingclever]

I wasn't trying to imply my experience was the same as all women's. I'm just pointing out that sexism and hypocrisy goes both ways and I admit, I'm guilty on occasion.

I don't think I can determine if someone is truly identifying as one gender or another and as long as they are behaving respectfully I think it's more productive to allow them to use whichever facilities they feel safest in.

Honestly, I'm with Zooey female privilege does exist. I know, because I myself have taken advantage of it.

I will read that article though.

People can go out with anyone they want....there's no attempt to regulate that. The question is, is it okay to segregate when they're in public? Is gender really more important than humanity? Am I entitled to question someone's gender because they've entered "my" space?

[Zooey]

To clarify, I think female privilege exists. There are benefits. I don't think that female privilege affords anything even approaching the same degree of systemic and institutional benefit as male privilege though. Men would have to buy us a LOT of dinners to make up for 79-cents on the dollar.

[ReineD]

Thanks Nclever. I wanted to point out that we don't all use our femininity to our advantage and also some men use their masculinity to charm us in the same way. We do have some members who read just one person's experience and then take it this is how "all women" are if what they read fits what they want to believe ... and then they go on to cite this behavior as if it is represents all of us or as a model for femininity in general.

Do you believe that single-user facilities are unsafe? I'm not speaking of transitioning individuals but of people who choose to dress occasionally. When my SO was beginning to go out, she was at liberty to pick when and where. She was not and still is not full time. And so it was easy to avoid large women's bathrooms, in the middle of the mall on a Saturday afternoon, for example.

Zooey, there's a difference between privilege and benefits. Each sex has it's advantages and disadvantages depending on a person's point of view, but one sex has dominated the other throughout most of human history, even though the gender gap has narrowed considerably in the last generation.

[nothingclever]

I think a person should use whichever they fit by presentation. If there is a single use bathroom available, then whoever wants to use it, by all means, use it. I really, really don't care who uses the ladies' as long as they are respectfully using the space for its intended purpose.

I posted this earlier, I do think it's an example of female privilege....
Actually this is not entirely true, for example there are currently 2,888 men on death row in the US and only 55 women on death row. 90% of convicted murderers are men, 10% are women. If women didn't receive "institutional and systematic benefits" the number of women on death row would be about 288....the male privilege most people generally are concerned with usually has other factors, like race and socioeconomic class...if I as a woman, entered a men's room dressed in traditional male clothing, it is doubtful I would be escorted out, but a man dressed in traditional women's clothing enters the ladies', is more likely to have security called and it some places even cited. As much as I hate to admit, female privilege does exist so does male privilege, it's a matter of context.

This goes beyond batting our eyelashes....there are many examples of gender being used to justify bias. Male and female.

[Zooey]

To be fair, I would need to know e.g. how many murder charges were filed against men and women, and how many men and women were each convicted without the death penalty. One possible reason for that number is that men are committing crimes eligible for the death penalty at a rate far higher than women.

[nothingclever]

I think it's okay to say that a man is more likely to receive the death penalty than a woman for the same crime. There are times when being a woman in this culture is simply better than being a man. I know this is my own biased opinion, but there is a lot of evidence to support it, I think.

[PaulaQ]

There isn't a lot of female privilege, because most of the situations people mention as examples of privilege are rooted in sexism and discrimination. Men buying dinners? It's based on women being dependent on men to take them out in the first place. Can clever women take advantage of the system? Sure. But once again, our "privilege" comes based on rules set by men.

The one area where I think women have gained some privilege is in the flexibility we have to choose between work and staying home with kids without social stigma. Of course that depends a lot on economic privilege, and comes at the cost of future career advancement. So ... maybe not so much. Because if the family can't make ends meet, she'll probably end up working AND being the primary caregiver for the kids.

Women do have more freedom to present in a wider variety of ways than men do. This is a fact much lamented here. But consider this - the ways women can present that aren't traditionally feminine are - wait for it - more masculine. Indeed the ways women typically have to behave in the workplace are also - more masculine.

And while its great women have more choices than we did, consider that traits considered traditionally feminine, such as being emotional, are not valued. At all. Emotion is quite useful. Empathy is quite useful. Intuition - really useful. And those traits carry less value or negative value in the workplace. By the way, wanna know why it required economic privilege for mom to stay home with the kids? Right because we assign no value to all that work she does.

So we've gained the privilege to move away from traditional femininity based on sexism and submission to men, and replaced it with acting more masculine. Great. Men, for their part, seem to be feeling threatened by all this, so we see all these flannel clad urban woodmen running around with their beards and $200 selvedge jeans.

How many women have been president? How many women on the Supreme court? (Not enough!)

So female privilege - not seeing it. We have a ways to go.

Since I'm a trans woman, writing this was probably an act of oppression against women, because I'm told I still have all this male privilege. /rolleyes

[nothingclever]

The fact that a woman can use a men's room in a pinch with no expectation of harassment while a man can't use the ladies' without possibly being arrested is an example of female privilege in the context of the original post.

I still say that there are two solutions to the gender controversy. Either total integration or clearly defined gender lines. The problem with the second is twofold. First who decides an individual's gender identity and "separate but equal" has already failed in our society because it is impossible to truly be separate AND equal.

Obviously, I believe in total integration. I respect the opinions of those who don't, but so far none of the arguments have been compelling enough to me to change my mind. :)

[Amy Fakley]

I used both, and I didn't feel terribly safe in either one.

In the period before beginning transition, I used the men's room because I hadn't really accepted who I was.
In the period before living full-time as a woman, but while on HRT, I used the men's room at work and the women's room elsewhere, usually with my cis women friends. I felt uneasy in both.

Since my legal changes got done and I went full-time, I use the women's room exclusively, and feel no unease about it.

... And during that middle phase, do you feel that you were executing a male entitlement to a "women's space" (as its been defined here)?

If you were to say that you did not, because in reality, you had been a woman all along that would make sense, and I'd agree with you.

However, the concept of "Entitlement" is problematic. It presumes an exchange between parties. You cannot be 'entitled' to a thing without a second party to grant access to it, based on a credential of some kind.

If I understand the intent of your OP, you're positing that women's only public spaces exist and that men are essentially presenting their "man card" as a credential to gain acceess to these spaces ("entitlement"), based on societal advantage ("privilege"), and that this is not a good thing.

The problem here appears to be what you consider to be an acceptable credential for being granted access to a "women's space".

I consider an acceptable credential to be "if the reasons you suspect I'm not a woman are none of your business, then you should accept that I'm a woman"

You seem to have some other sort of credential in mind. Can you elaborate?

[Zooey]

No, I did not feel I was executing a male entitlement during that middle phase, but I did feel that I was pushing the limits of what felt appropriate, and tried to be mindful of that fact.

I'm using entitlement here in the sense that some people are wont to entitle themselves to things. In this particular context, self-identified men who feel self-entitled to women's spaces.

I'm not really talking about whether or not I could identify somebody such that I would choose to entitle them or not. In this conversation, I already know what they are, because I'm talking to them right now, and the people that I'm discussing have self-identified themselves as men.

The question I'm asking is, why do people who self-identify as men feel it's appropriate to self-entitle themselves to women's spaces based on their presentation at the time? Remember that this is not about bathrooms - the physical safety issue is not a thing in this case. This is about women's spaces in general.

[nothingclever]

I don't understand how a culture can truly rid itself of misogyny or sexism as long as there are designated "men's spaces" and "women's spaces". Earlier, a point was made that the fact that a man presenting as a woman could become a target of violence if they were in a men's room indicates that our society needs to focus on eradicating "toxic masculinity", doesn't the idea that women need spaces to protect themselves from men perpetuate a culture of toxic masculinity?

[Zooey]

By and large, I don't think it perpetuates it. I think it acknowledges it.

I will admit that it can be a pretty fine line though, and I can certainly understand the argument that it perpetuates it to some extent.

[GaleWarning]

Meaningful change has very often occurred only when spaces of privilege were deliberately entered into by those who were excluded (often by law). Think Rosa Parks.

Labels are divisive. The law is an ass. We all share the characteristic of a common humanity.

I'm done!

[Zooey]

GaleWarning, ignoring the issues with public bathrooms, what meaningful change are you interested in seeing occur through that sort of action?

[GaleWarning]

Hi Zooey
As stated, I am done with this thread.
What is it about this comment that you appear not to have understood?
Enough!
G

[Amanda M]

Quote from Zoey The question I'm asking is, why do people who self-identify as men feel it's appropriate to self-entitle themselves to women's spaces based on their presentation at the time? Remember that this is not about bathrooms - the physical safety issue is not a thing in this case. This is about women's spaces in general. Unquote.

Zoey, I do admire your tenacity, but not your conclusions. Women's spaces in general? Which ones?

Would you be happy if I had to follow your strictures and walk into the men's room dressed as an elegant, late middle aged lady (because that is how I look - check my avatar) and then beaten to a pulp because I went in there? Yes, of course, your feminist (?) political agenda would have been fulfilled.

You see, young lady, that is exactly what you are advocating. That CDs are not real people that deserve the same respect as you do as a transgendered woman. You expect US to defer to YOU! Sorry, but no. You have had the surgery, the hormone treatment, the experience of social struggle and stigma that you may well have gone through. Does that give you the right to denigrate us who do not want to transition, or who, because of financial or social strictures cannot?

So what is it that makes YOU a woman who is entitled to put down MOST of the membership of this site. Surgery? Hormones? Mindset? Come on, step up and tell me!

Zoey, I have no problem with you personally. Well done you. But can you not cut us a little slack. Remember you catch more flies with honey than vinegar!

[Zooey]

Amanda, I think you may have skipped over some content here. If not, you may want to re-read what I've actually said here, because I think you've misinterpreted things.

When I say "in general", I mean "in general". There are a number of posts in this thread where I've given examples and explained what I'm talking about. Please read them, and then we can talk.

[Teresa]

Amanda,
Taking up your point about the possibility of being assaulted , I wonder how many attacks actually happen ? There is another side to this , with the increase in girl gangs I wonder how many women have been assaulted and robbed in women's facilities ?

I realise this is not part of the original thread, to me it has more importance than debating whose space we occupy .

[Zooey]

Teresa, this thread is nearing its conclusion, and has already been driven all over the map. If there's something important to you that you'd like to discuss but that is not on topic here, I suggest starting a new thread.

[Alice Torn]

I think some must have blinders on, or heads in the sand, to NOT see, how things have RADICALLY CHANGED for men. OVER 60% of college grads are female now! The suicide rate for men is much HIGHER, than for women! More men are out of work, than women, now. (Men Adrift . The Economist May 30 2015 issue) ( Economist.com) And the pay for women and men is basically the same today. Bogus facts distort the true wage gap. In fact, the single women i have know, all made more money than the single men i have known. Women who are legal secretaries, heads of offices. Men-laborers, temp workers, auto parts drivers, security guards, janitors. In my experience,the women i have dated, had far better incomes, than i did. I also have known of women raped by other women. And i was sexually assaulted by a woman once, when i refused to have sex. We don't get all the truth and facts, in the drive by media.

[Zooey]

I once owned a cat that could reliably solve multi-stage problems and knew how to monitor a kibble supply chain. If you can't see how men are being subjugated by these cats thanks to so called "felinists", you must be blind (more like feliNAZIS, amirite?)...

All joking aside... Alice, if you want to talk about the men's rights activism issues that you're clearly very passionate about then I would suggest starting a new thread about the disenfranchisement of men. Unless you believe that your perceived disenfranchisement is justification for a man to feel self-entitled to access women's spaces, it's not in topic here.

[Marcelle]

Hi Zooey,

Firstly, I respect your opinion and tenacity for digging your heels in on this point and originally I was not going to reply to the thread as I feel it has been beat to death, brought back, beat again rinse and repeat. However, I thought I might give my perspective as a trans woman.

I am sure there are many cis women who have run across me in the room which shall go unnamed (nasty B word that it is :)) who probably think one of two things . . . cross dresser or transsexual. I am also sure that some may feel put off by my presence and feel I have no place in that room and who do I think I am being in there. I also believe most don't care. I have had conversations with my cis female friends and asked them point blank if they feel I am invading some sort of private haven. To a person, they have all stated "no". It is a room which provides for a specific biological function with stalls to do your business, wash up and leave. One friend told me "Heck it is not like a sisterhood of the travelling pants moment in there, we pee and leave" :). Now this could be a factor of being a military sample I suppose and not reflective of the civilian world . . . heck I have had female soldiers squat at the first available spot in plain view to pee while deployed on operations while I was doing my business at the tree beside them.

To be honest, I personally do not feel any CDer who goes through the process of presenting as woman (regardless of how they identify) who wants to answer nature's call in place where they would feel safer, does their business, washes hands and leaves is exerting any male privilege by forcing themselves into a women's space. They just want to avoid being potentially beat by some disgruntled Bubba who has a hate on for trans folk. Now, I would agree that if a CDer enters a women's restroom just to snap some trophy pics of the big moment or sees this as some sexual thrill then yes, they are not behaving correctly and have not business in there . . . it is for one purpose only and not a thrill source. However, I would argue that for a great percentage of the CD population on this forum most just pee and leave, others use single use toilets and some don't go at all. In a perfect world it would be gender neutral (you know what) and you even stated you could get behind that . . . so let's shove this 300 pound elephant into the corner give it a mint julep and let her rest.

Where I feel your argument has credence is spaces where everything you have is on display for whoever happens to be in the room (e.g., locker rooms). However, I am confident that for the membership here . . . none would ever try to do that. Heck I may consider myself a woman but I am also cognizant that I am physiologically male and I would never deign to try and exert my right to enter the women's locker room at work. So my take home . . . bathrooms (eek . . . did she just use the "B" word) in North America IMHO are considered "gender specific space" by convention only. I think we can all agree that depending on where you are in the world the concept of gender specific bathrooms would be odd (i.e., France). I think the concept of privacy in bathrooms is more specific to I have a stall and can do my thing in private with the rest coming down to cleanliness and I have used some nasty women's bathrooms . . . the concept of toilet hovering comes to mind. A gender specific bathroom IMO does not afford safety from attack as a woman can be assaulted in a bathroom by a man regardless of the sign on the door. On the other hand, spaces such as locker rooms by convention are gender specific because of the intimacy of the situation (i.e., you are naked) and the sense of vulnerability is much higher so a requirement to segregate is deeply rooted. However, I have yet to read any CDer posting here stating they have the right to enter such a room.

As an aside, when I was posted to Germany, I went to a spa several times where everyone is walking around naked as the day they were born and it was not uncommon to share a sauna bench with the opposite gender and bathrooms were gender neutral . . . nobody cared. But to illustrate how deeply rooted the sense of privacy for gender specific spaces can still be . . . the locker rooms were gender specific.

Just to confirm, not hacking on your post . . . just providing my thoughts to pyre :)

Marcelle

[flatlander_48]

Z:

In the future, I would caution against "not male/not female". That seems to suggest a nothingness and that's not positive. Personally, and perhaps for others, it is a simultaneous combination of male and female. It is coexistence. Certainly more male than female, but the female is significant. For example, my default for problem solving is an intuitive approach. Logic is used, but it is to validate (or not validate) the result of the intuitive process. I suspect that very few engineers work like that, but it is what I did for 43+ years.

Again personally, the idea of entitlement (and believe me, I know what it is) never crossed my mind. It has to do with expediency. And, having an average (at best) physique that is compromised by chronic illness, I see no reason to deliberately put myself in harm's way.

Discussion of gender neutral facilities borders on the pointless. Not because it isn't a good idea, but because it will take an exceedingly long time to implement. Recently I mention the ADA here in the US. The Americans with Disabilities Act was created to define what needed to change in order to accommodate people with disabilities in public places. It covered things like ramp, door and restroom stall dimensions, established penalties for not meeting requirements, etc. The enforcement has been going on for 24 years and there are still many places that are not barrier free. The big stumbling block is the expense of the accommodations and that has always been the issue. But, think about this in the context of the Transgender Community. Gender neutral facilities are also expensive AND many of the people who would decide such things DON'T LIKE US. So the question is, what do you think the chances are?

And finally, I offer the image below without comment.

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

Again, I strongly encourage everybody to read carefully what I actually said in this thread. For everybody who keeps insisting on bringing up bathrooms in particular, and "facilities" more generally, you are fundamentally missing the idea that I'm trying to discuss here.

FL: I did not ever say "not male/not female", nor did I say the more appropriate "not masculine/not feminine".

I said "not man/not woman", with man and woman being gender identities predominantly existing at either end of the binary. There are people who identify in the middle, like yourself, and I'm led to believe that they are neither man nor woman. As I understand it, they possess qualities associated with each in varying measure, but they are another identity entirely.

[jenni_xx]

1) being in female mode in the "mens space" is likely to end in a hospital visit

As opposed to being in female mode in a space that men occupy?

Is THAT likely to end in a hospital visit?

What exactly is the justification in making your comment? Has this actually happened to you? Did you indeed go into a men's bathroom while dressed as a woman and as a result end up in hospital?

Do men all of a sudden (ie when they are in a space where only men are around) turn into raging monsters who will attack anyone who doesn't look like a man?

The mere suggestion that this would happen simply has to be based upon the very notion that these men will instantly recognise you as a crossdresser and as a consequence of THAT alone. attack you. Meaning that the crossdresser in question doesn't pass as a woman because they would have been instantly recognised as a man. If this isn't the case, that is, you aren't instantly recognised as a man, then the implications of what you have actually said here is that in such a scenario we are actually talking men who will violently attack people who look like women simply for entering a men's bathroom. Or in other words, men who will violently attack women, resulting in said women (in your words) ending up in hospital.

This thread has annoyed me greatly, and your comment has annoyed me the most. I'm not annoyed because this thread exists - I agree with the reasons why Zooey has created this thread completely. What has annoyed me is the comment and the inference in your comment that you have made.

The fact is rather that you yourself are scared to enter such a male only space because in such a space you will end up feeling vulnerable, regardless of whether anything negative happens or not. Which is exactly the same reason that women will use in regards to not wanting you to frequent their "space" as well. The fact is that YOU are scared to enter a man's bathroom dressed as a woman. Well, I'm sorry, but in my opinion you being scared does not justify you entering a woman's bathroom. And that is the bottom line for me.

Men, or more specifically, men who cd. Own your own balls, don't deny them. Walk loud and be proud of who you are - a MAN who likes to dress in female clothing. Use the male only spaces because you have just as much right to use those spaces as any other man. What you are not entitled to do is encroach on a female only space just because you are wearing clothes and make-up that "belongs" to the female gender. Putting on a dress does not make you a woman, and it's about time every single CD realised that.

[ReineD]

Again, I strongly encourage everybody to read carefully what I actually said in this thread. For everybody who keeps insisting on bringing up bathrooms in particular, and "facilities" more generally, you are fundamentally missing the idea that I'm trying to discuss here.

I spoke of bathrooms, sorry ... but it's been all over the news with a lot of people getting upset and it is still unresolved in some Southern states. I also mentioned locker rooms and saunas, both places where people get naked which is different than places where they don't get naked. And I spoke of other loosely gendered events, like female friends wanting to get together exclusively (without males present) and the same for men who enjoy getting together to engage in certain activities without females present (sports, poker, or what have you).

You or someone else brought up private men's golf clubs, someone else brought up the extremist feminist lesbian groups who do not accept transwomen. There are also exclusively boys and girls schools and colleges. I suppose we can also include gay clubs that don't welcome lesbians and vice versa, if there are such clubs.

Did you have any specific gendered places and events in mind, that CDers who identify as men might wish to be included? Some past members have mentioned joining groups like quilting bees and knitting circles, but as far as I know these groups were predominately female simply because most men aren't or have not been interested in quilting and knitting, and not because these women had a desire to keep men out.

[flatlander_48]

Message #1 and #25. I didn't rescan the other pages. But the point is that there it a combined situation and not nothing. There is no one that is nothing. Please rethink your words.

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

FL: I'm not calling anybody "nothing". Saying green is neither yellow nor blue does not negate its existence.

Reine: what I'm interested in talking about is the principle underlying all of those things, including things like women's social groups, discussion groups, conferences, panels, etc.

Against my better judgement, I'm going to mention bathrooms in order to clarify what I'm talking about. Basically, there are two arguments I see here for why CDs should be using the women's restroom.

1) There is a safety issue in the men's room, and so female presenting men should be allowed in
2) If you're dressed as a woman, you're a woman, regardless of whether you otherwise consider yourself a man

#1 is sadly legitimate. #2, in my opinion, is not a valid argument, because we KNOW identity is separate from presentation. Let's break down #1... There are two possible solutions to that problem.

1) De-gender bathrooms, i.e. eliminate gendered bathrooms and make them all gender neutral.
2) Self-identified men should be allowed to access spaces designated for women

I am in favor of #1, because it resolves the specific safety issue as best we can over time without having to deconstruct the value of gender. Because I believe women's spaces are valuable, but not when men are allowed free entry, I am not in favor of #2. I view the current discussions around #2, here and in the political world, as short term solutions at best. #1 is the real solution.

End of bathroom discussions.

So given all of that... For people who argue for solution #2 and whose argument is also predicated on the "when dressed, I'm a woman" argument, where does it stop, and why? If we remove the word "bathroom", and talk about women's spaces in general terms, does that same sense of entitlement to access those spaces still apply? If so, is that reasonable?

[Nigella]

End of thread, this is just going round and round and round

[Tamara Croft]

Wow.... I go away for a few days and it's like all hell broke lose on the board!!! I know Nigella locked this thread, however I think the behaviour in this thread needs addressing.

You see the new notice that's gone up? no? try looking at the top of the page, you can't miss it, it's in a bright yellow box... just incase you really aren't seeing it... which would mean you needed glasses....

This forum has rules which all members agree to when they sign up for the forum. We accept that members may have issues from time to time with moderation, however, we do not allow moderation to be discussed on the main boards. If you have an issue with moderation start a thread in the private help forum.

....and one of the reasons is THIS thread and the disgusting behaviour of some members in it. Not only is it full of hatred, vile comments and trolling, there seems to be this TS v's CD'ers bullshit again and a comment by a GG that absolutely floored me (and you're well aware I am a GG)!! And then, you get the disgruntled members sending nasty PM's to staff for closing it, which resulted in 2 of them being banned for the nasty vile way they spoke to members of staff.

If it were up to me, I'd ban the whole lot of you from the board for a month for the bullshit in this thread, however you're lucky it's not just up to me... But you mark my words and mark them clearly, you are all on my list and you break one rule, just ONE and you'll be out, gone, banned. The last couple of weeks have been horrendous on this forum, it's like all the trolls came out to play all in one go and caused a shit storm on the forum. Well today is your last day of causing a shit storm on this forum, because anymore of it and you'll be out. If you have something to say about this, then feel free to PM me, but if you're going to PM me to give me a mouthful or troll or generally piss me off, then don't bother, because my boot will be up your ass so quick you'll be banned. If that isn't clear enough, then get some glasses!!!!!