Trans Intolerance From Within

[reb.femme]

I’m not easily shocked but this issue goes to the heart of getting out what you put in. I can’t believe some of the comments I’m seeing on my local Trans Facebook pages and the lack of tolerance exhibited.

Now I know that Facebook is just a board that allows people to act big from a keyboard. However, with comments such as ”swear word", he missed” and the like, what is grabbing me is that these are the very same people that will be attending yearly events of Trans Remembrance and attending vigils in support of murdered UK MP Jo Cox.

For anyone that knows me, and poor Katey does :heehee:, I’m far from a dripping wet apologist, but to see people that complain of a lack of acceptance encouraging a killing is quite frankly, sickening.

Oh…rant over.

Becky

[Amy Lynn3]

Becky, I must agree with you. Many people want rights extended, but heaven forbid if someone else uses their right to free speech. It boils down to the old saying.... do as I say, not as I do or I want my cake and to eat it to.

Rant on girl, you have a right.

[ReineD]

Free speech is a foundation in this country. It is one of the Four Freedoms (http://twsp.us/sites/default/files/briefing/THE_FOUR_FREEDOMS_-_MESSAGE_TO_THE_77TH_CONGRESS_-_NARA_-_515601.jpg) that make this country great, along with the freedom of religion, the freedom from want, and the freedom from fear.

But, there is a fine line between free speech and hate speech. Should we support hate speech that incites intolerance or hatred towards minority groups? And should we support speech that incites fear and that by doing so, threatens one of our other freedoms, namely the freedom from fear?

Until this question is resolved, there will be people who are against hate speech.

This man should not have attempted to take the law into his own hands to get rid of someone who engages in hate speech ... just as the haters who are against minority groups should not attempt to attack them or the places where they gather.

It would be so much nicer if everyone simply stopped engaging in hate speech, and instead used their free speech to come up with viable solutions that target only those who would harm us rather than an entire population of people who share their culture. But, since this is not about to happen, how do we stop hate speech. Not by having people attempt murder, obviously, but how would we get rid of hate speech.

But personally, I don't blame people for being angry against those who engage in hate speech. I get angry as well when I witness entire groups of people lumped in together as "those who would harm us".

[ClaudineD]

Just love to see Politics OUT of these discussion...but freedom of speech is SOOOOOO important on many levels......

[Lorileah]

:yt:

remember no politics or religion on these boards, thankyouverymuch

[Teresa]

Becky,
Some people will use any front to put their own message across, not always in support of the group they say they belong to.

Take football hooligans for example, they didn't go to watch the game they were there to make trouble.

I'm afraid the TG community is open to being abused in that way, and do us very few favours with our issues within the community.

Reine calls it hate speech, maybe, but there will always be people like that and there's nothing we can do to stop it in a free society .

[reb.femme]

Unfortunately Reine, it is a circular discussion. I'm totally in support of free speech, lord knows how much I've used it. I'm just baffled by the very people that would be shouting from the roof tops, if similar support had been shown for the murderer of Jo Cox. It's not something that will keep me awake at night, but I'm challenging them to think before shouting.

Do I qualify for a Noble Peace Prize? :heehee:

Becky

[ReineD]

ClaudineD, freedom of speech in my opinion is not "politics". It is a human right that accords dignity to any human. For example a woman in some parts of the world should not be shot in the face by tolerated groups in that country, for saying she believes that women should be educated. Gay men should not be thrown off of buildings for saying they are gay, in the countries where this has happened.

But, saying that one believes in education for women or one is gay does not harm others. Some types of free speech (hate speech, specifically) does harm innocent people when they incite intolerance for groups of people as a whole rather than just the individuals who would harm us, or when they attempt to limit their human rights (such as gay marriage), or when they attempt to prevent innocent people who seek refuge here to escape the horrors of war in their own countries.

Terrorists overseas engage in hate speech too (it's called propaganda) when they try to incite hatred among their people for Western culture as a whole.

[Tracii G]

How in the world is free speech a political issue?

[Alice Torn]

Live and let live. Do unto other as u would have them do to you. Politics stink.

[Katey888]

Becks - I'm with you... of course... :cheer:

Free speech has been enshrined here (UK) since the 1689 Bill of Rights ensured that controversial issues could be raised in parliament without fear of legal reprisals and has been more recently modernised and disseminated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1949) adopted by most of the civilised world. Sadly, I think the media of today and the interwebs has seen such a dramatic evolution of the power of unconstrained free speech, that like all things that exert great influence or power, they can be used to very positive ends (like the tweets during the Paris attacks of a year ago) or very destructive purposes (like the uncounted suicides caused by virtual bullying).

Those who know me - as Becks does, if she remembers through the alcoholic haze... ;) - will know that I stand firmly on the side of allowing discussion to take place whether or not it aligns with my opinion (but I know I have a thing about accuracy and logic... :p) - but some hate speech crosses into breaking laws expressly established for the protection of minorities or inciting violence or further law-breaking...

And while I would agree with Alice's succinct and pithy evaluation (Politics - and some politicians - do indeed, stink), politics is also what has made the good aspects of the world we live in today... Now if only more political office was sought with the same sense of philanthropy as a couple hundred years ago and not just as a pocket-filling, career exercise, we just might be able to continue to improve the world we live in. :)

I think Becks should forget the Nobel Peace Prize and just run for government as there are bound to be a few by-elections post-referendum here - or "Okey-Cokey Day" as we're calling it... (As in: "In -Out -In -Out - you shake it all about..." :D It's a UK thing..)

Katey x

[Eryn]

While there is freedom of speech in theory, in practice speech is quite self-limited. If it weren't, we'd all sound like Sheldon Cooper in The Big Bang Theory.

The unfortunate reality about free speech is that we really don't have it. We are all subject to many controls. While it may not be as bad as China where citizens are punished and even "disappeared" for merely wanting to discuss how their government *really* works we still must accept limitations if we wish to keep our jobs, our friends, or our access to social outlets.

[Rachelakld]

I remember an England, where fish & chips were the national dish - not curry.
I remember an England, where most were christian and very few were islamic
But am I free to remember the England of old and glory, where the Empire stood proud
Or must I now bat for all the refugees and ignore the pain my old land is suffering?
must I watch, voiceless, as my traditions crumble and my values become meaninless in the onslought of global pressure.
Must I be bullied to helping others, at the cost of my identity?
Freedom, just as William Wallace lost it to the puppet masters, so now do we.
invasion is invasion, whatever the form, but dare not speak it's name, for we be tagged as "haters"
Will I be deemed as such, by the "haters" who hate my rememberance? probably
Do I hate what my old country has become, or the people in it, No
Am I angry all that was once great has become rubble before my eyes, Yes
So where becomes the freedom/hate speach can only be determined by each indivual reader

[ReineD]

Yes, it's difficult to cope with change.

But cope we must, in a rapidly changing world. We should all just try to get along and appreciate one another's differences.

[Mykaa]

The thing is people Fear what they dont understand and that comes out with other feelings represented. I know being public isnt for some of us, but if its ever going to get better, at least some of us need to step out and make an effort.

[Mylie Taylor]

People that are unreasonably politically correct and call everything they disagree with "hate speech" have become Orwell's Newspeak. I'd rather know if someone is a huge racist or bigot so I can make an informed decision on blocking them, online or in real life.

[PaulaQ]

I have absolutely no idea what's being discussed in this thread.


People that are unreasonably politically correct and call everything they disagree with "hate speech" have become Orwell's Newspeak.

OK, what's reasonably politically correct, then? I agree that to some degree, political correctness has caused hateful or bigoted ideas to move underground, where they still exist, but aren't spoken about. That isn't healthy, because keeping hateful attitudes while speaking in code about them so those who aren't in the know don't understand what's being discussed, doesn't really do anything to help get rid of hatred. In fact, it makes it harder to get rid of, because people won't talk about what they really feel.

That said, a lot of the complaints about "political correctness" seem to me to be from people who are used to saying what they want, unchecked.

[Rachelakld]

I think it started with Trans who bag other types of Trans, which became freedom of speech, which went to "hate" speech.
But I find it kinda interesting, more so than chatting about pink heels vrs blue heels :)

[ReineD]

People that are unreasonably politically correct and call everything they disagree with "hate speech" have become Orwell's Newspeak. I'd rather know if someone is a huge racist or bigot so I can make an informed decision on blocking them, online or in real life.

Sorry, I'll make that clear.

Hate speech is speech that offends, threatens, or insults groups, based on race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, disability, or other traits, for example the pastor who in a video recently said that homosexuals were pedophiles.

Political correctness, on the other hand, is the avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against, for example recent attempts by universities to take action on campuses to mitigate racial discrimination when black students said they felt discriminated against.

However, political correctness can be taken to extremes and I'll give you an example. I saw on a website recently that some people don't want to use the word "Freshmen" anymore because they feel the "men" in the word excludes women. They say it is best to use the term "First Year". This argument may have its merits in a gender class discussion at college, but in my opinion, if I use the word when referring to females, I do not fundamentally impede her freedom to attend the university, work hard, and get good grades, nor do I use the word to make myself seem superior, and at this point in time, the term "freshmen" is not considered disparaging.

So you see, political correctness is a good thing when it refuses to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against on large issues (taking care of racial discrimination on campuses), but it can be taken to extremes when people become insulted when a word like "freshmen" is used without the intent to put anyone down and when using the word does not impede anyone's freedoms or human rights.

Rachelakid, you're right, the argument seems out of place now. Reb.femme has changed her OP and it is entirely different than how it was written when I first responded.

[Mylie Taylor]

I know what the definitions of both are. I'm out.

[reb.femme]

No. the post was edited (and not by me), which makes it totally unintelligible. Sorry!

Becky

[sometimes_miss]

I think we sometimes forget that there are jerks in every group of people. Just because we have something in common, doesn't mean we have everything in common.