Crossdressing v Transgender

[KymberlyOct]

This may stir up some opinions but I had an interesting conversation with my therapist last week regarding cross-dressing vs transgender. She said that the current belief of many in the Psych community is that being transgender and being a cross-dresser are not two separate things but are now considered to be just different points along the same spectrum. I thought it was an interesting view. She did ultimately say that I have gender dysphoria and am transgender but my diagnosis isn't the point. The point is that she states that the current view is that CD and trans are the same thing just different places on the spectrum. My therapist is a recently minted PsyD and IMHO very intelligent and is part of the transgender clinic at a major university so she has credentials.

[LeaP]

There is nothing more unchangeable then non-trans people telling trans people who and what they are. The psych industry people are the least qualified to pronounce on the topic anyway. That nod as long gone to the physical scientists.

Keith Ablow and Paul McHugh have credentials, too. So what?

[flatlander_48]

Keith Ablow and Paul McHugh have credentials, too. So what?

They would represent the minority opinion.

DeeAnn

[KymberlyOct]

I am not proclaiming anything, I thought it was an interesting discussion topic that may or may not be valid. I am not sure. My reference to her credentials is that the opinion is not coming from someone half baked. Personally I am not sure at this time where I stand on the position which is why I thought it was an interesting topic.

[LeaP]

Far too generous, DeeAnn. McHugh has a well-known personal agenda, coming from a Catholic traditionalist perspective. Ablow, who was his student at John Hopkins, is a sycophant.

"Minority view" in this case leaves out their considerable influence. McHugh is personally responsible for the cascade of gender clinic closures in the US a few decades ago.

The understanding and treatment of transsexualism as a psychiatric phenomenon (and serious mental illness until very recently) instead of a medical condition with a physical etiology ruined a lot of lives over the last 80 years or so - as well as establishing the public perception of transsexuals that lingers to this day. McHugh currently represents a minority opinion vis Psychiatry's official posture these days, but for all of his active career represented the majority view (sans the Catholic aspect, of course).

[pamela7]

From one perspective, understanding our demographic as a spectrum is a good thing. From another perspective, one is a man letting out his female side/aspect, and the other is a woman trapped in a male body. These are not on the same planet viz mars and venus.

Personally, having worked in the field for 16 years I can say most psych's have no theory, no clue, just some "symptoms" they measure using DSM, and some process they use to let out emotions and relieve traumas - regardless of intelligence, it's not scientific by definition of observation, trials and evidence versus hypotheses. I have identified several possible causes for CD and some cases of TS that depend upon life conditioning experiences, but without doubt the idea of a female soul being born into a male body (and vice versa) has great validity in my own theory of the self/group, and fits within the broader theories supposed for therianthropy.

Happy to discuss by PM.

xxx Pam

[KymberlyOct]

There is nothing more unchangeable then non-trans people telling trans people who and what they are. The psych industry people are the least qualified to pronounce on the topic anyway. That nod as long gone to the physical scientists.

Keith Ablow and Paul McHugh have credentials, too. So what?

Although it is off my original topic that's OK (sincerely) I was looking for replies on the opinion of my therapist. I usually go on tangents so I should be used to it. As a newly transitioning woman I willing admit ignorance to many things. And I am not familiar with either Ablow or McHugh but from reading your comments it would appear that they are well known jackasses so I will educate myself regarding them.

[becky77]

It's about as true as saying a Lion and a hamster are alike because they are both on the animal spectrum.
Also depends on their use of the word Crossdresser and Transgender.

[LeaP]

My reply was on point. It's dismissive of the spectrum notion. People looking for taxonomies will find the characteristics to construct them. (Excellent comment, Becky.) Any physical scientist worth his salt, however, will tell you how easy it is to be fooled by superficial similarity.

There has been a lot of research on transsexuals in the last 20 years. From the original cadaver studies on the hypothalamus with which some have some familiarity, to now, dozens of brain development differences have been uncovered. Some are hormonal, some not, some hormone timed, some not, some purely genetic (I.e., expression not hormone mediated), some not, some known to be tied to sexual dimorphism, some not, some the same as natal women, some somewhere between natal men and women. Not one critical period of dimorphic development, but several.

Now ... how about the physical science studies on CDs? What's that sound??? ... Crickets. Moreover, whatever the current vibe in the psych community, the official stance as represented in the DSM (which is something between a consensus view and a negotiated peace) is that CDing is a separate phenomenon and, when such is warranted, a different diagnosis. The obsessive focus on gender dysphoria, which is a symptom found in MANY conditions, tends to distort things toward the view of commonality. One term for people who insist their symptoms mean what they want them to mean instead of what they actually do is "hypochondriac."

Pam, excellent comments also. I don't take yours as dismissive of therapy, either.

[Mirya]

I guess in some ways, depending on one's definition of transgender, cross-dressers are kind-of sort-of at different points along the same spectrum as other gender variants. There's that popular image of the "transgender umbrella" and it includes cross-dressers and even drag queens. But as a transsexual, it doesn't really sit well with me to be placed in the same category as them. Not that I have any contempt for them... in fact I have a number of cross-dresser friends and they are generally good people. I feel like the definition of transgender should be limited to gender identity and not include gender expression.

[LeaP]

There were once two people who went to the doctor. They both had vertigo, blurred vision and headaches. As it happened, one was developing a brain tumor and the other unknowingly had sleep apnea. But THANK GOD the doctor they saw was an Optometrist and saw that they were both on the near-to-farsighted spectrum. Not only that, the treatment worked, too, right up until the first died of intercranial pressure and the second from heart failure.

[ReineD]

Lol, Lea.

Kymberly, how much training has your therapist had on gender. And even if she is up to date on all the latest, there is a scant body of work on crossdressers because so many are closeted and they do not seek medical treatment.

But, to give her the benefit of doubt, can she be more specific with you about the "current view"? Has she read just one article or is there a consensus. Can she provide references to all the articles.

[Badtranny]

The spectrum theory is bunk.

It makes perfect sense to Cis people but it is bunk nonetheless.

Just because there ARE some CD's who will eventually transition does not mean that all CD's are just closeted trans folks. They also may have gender issues, but that doesn't mean they are women either. Transsexual people have a rather pronounced condition that makes them fell disconnected from their assigned gender. CD's like to play dress up and clean the house in heels and whatnot.

When I started seeing my therapist I was skeptical about transition because I had never really cross dressed. When I told my therapist that I didn't think I was really transexual because of that, she said this: "that doesn't mean you're not a woman inside, it just means that you're not a cross dresser". Then she went on to explain something that made perfect sense, which was women's clothes have nothing to do with being a woman.

Women know this. CD's do not.

[KymberlyOct]

As I read the replies I was going to single each one out in my note but as it turns out there is no need. They were all good replies for different reasons. I like to pose questions on this forum for two reasons. One is I am looking for advice and info for myself. The other is I think it is interesting to learn the mindset of other transwomen.

To quickly answer Reine's question my therapist is currently treating approximately 50 trans patients. Her doctoral dissertation was on gender dysphoria and it is the focus of her practice. I specifically asked her background in gender therapy at the start of my therapy. Where she gets her information to state that opinion is a good question which I will ask her.

I don't think I disagree with her opinion as adamantly as most of you, but I do agree there is a significant difference between cross dressers and transgender people. The reason that I do at least give her position consideration is that there are people that describe themselves as gender fluid for example so I do believe that the concept of a 'spectrum of gender identity' may have some validity. Admittedly my opinion is not based on specific scientific information it is just an observational opinion.

Thank you for the intelligent, well thought out replies.

[ReineD]

To quickly answer Reine's question my therapist is currently treating approximately 50 trans patients. Her doctoral dissertation was on gender dysphoria and it is the focus of her practice.

This may be the problem, if her focus has been on gender dysphoric individuals and she has not seen people who don't have gender dysphoria.



I specifically asked her background in gender therapy at the start of my therapy. Where she gets her information to state that opinion is a good question which I will ask her.

It's always good to read the research, although there certainly has been research in the past that missed the mark (i.e. Blanchard's AGP theory as it applies to female-attracted transsexuals). But again, there is very little research about crossdressers because they don't seek medical intervention.

[flatlander_48]

The spectrum theory is bunk.

It makes perfect sense to Cis people but it is bunk nonetheless.

You seem to subscribe to the binary construct, so explain this. I am not a Crossdresser and don't have enough dysphoria to consider transitioning. I've never felt uncomfortable presenting as male or female. Any shame or guilt regarding the discovery of my real gender identity can be measured in minutes and probably not even double digits. My personality doesn't really change as a function of presentation. It is mostly male, but there is a significant female portion. I don't do June Cleaver or RuPaul. By what you say, there is no place for me. It's all or nothing. That's my interpretation of what you said. Is that what you mean?


Just because there ARE some CD's who will eventually transition does not mean that all CD's are just closeted trans folks.

I would posit that those who Crossdress and eventually transition were never really Crossdressers to begin with.


CD's like to play dress up and clean the house in heels and whatnot.

That sounds very dismissive. Was that your intent?

DeeAnn

[PretzelGirl]

My personality doesn't really change as a function of presentation.

No ones personality should change from presentation unless they are faking something (fetish?) or holding back (pre-transition TS). So you dress some of the time.... That sounds like a CD comfortable with themselves actually. :idontknow:

[KymberlyOct]

I like both DeeAnn and Reine's replies. This type of discussion was the intent of my post. Thank you!!

[arbon]

I have not been around a lot of CD's, but the few I have were men who liked wearing women's cloths sometimes. One CD from this forum had a pleasant dinner with a month or so ago he is definitely a man and has no confusion or uncertainty about his identity. And I have none about mine as a woman (well mostly, I am definitely not a man anyway) . I don' really see it as being on the same spectrum.

[Suzanne F]

Flat lander
I am curious as to how your dysphoria manifests itself since you say you are comfortable presenting as male. Can you explain that for me?
Suzanne

[LeaP]

A bunch of people get in a room and start discussing gender. Everyone's got a gender problem. A gender question. A gender issue. People wondering about gender. People trying to feel gender. People talking about what it means – biologically, politically, philosophically, culturally, scientifically. People dismissing gender.

To be sure, I use the gender terminology framework, too. But I'll tell you what's funny. The further down the path you go, the more you realize that gender is a phantom. Forget woman and forget man. Toss the stereotypes, mannerisms, dress, all of it. My most important breakthrough was the realization that my head was saying - and I was ignoring – female all along despite my body saying male. That CROSS-SEX phenomenon is rooted in my physical development history and is what distinguishes the transsexual condition. A does not equal B. Not A is kinda sorta like B because, you know, they are more or less close together and I really like them both.

Maybe some of you are on a spectrum. Maybe cross-dressers, fetishists, drag queens, gender queers, and others are all on a gender spectrum. But I am not. I certainly thought I was! But the path isn't leading to the entrance of the happy, happy womanly theme park land. No, it's leading to sex change land ... because I don't HAVE a gender issue. Some of us need to be careful about spending too much time at the gender party. All the talk about gender dysphoria might mislead someone into thinking they are on a spectrum or something.

[Edit] aargh! And now I am going to sleep. I just flew in from out-of-state. It's midnight. And I am getting up at four in the morning for yet another flight.… I wonder what the chances are that I will return to this thread tomorrow and see something novel?

[Lena]

I don't understand why so many replies are cds that are so adamant about not being on the same spectrum. Do they not wear female clothes to feel feminine? Are they wearing female clothing to confirm their manliness?

I don't understand and don't want to offend anyone but it's a question I've had.

To me, I wear feminine clothing and feel comfortable with feeling feminine. I know I'm a man and will go back to it but I feel feminine when dressed. Sometimes even not dressed, I'll feel or think feminine (to me) thoughts.

I don't get how a guy can transition from male appearance to female appearance without acknowledging they are on the tans spectrum. Just because they know that dressing is their limit, they seem to be on the spectrum to me. It doesn't mean they're going to start living full time or want sas. Heck, there's even different levels within the crossdresser spectrum.

Yeah, a fish and lion are on the same spectrum because their animals, however, that's a wide spectrum. If you go to a tighter, closer related spectrum, it would be like comparing a small mouth bass to a large mouth bass or a tiger to a cougar.

[KellyJameson]

"Voluntarily" Being on a gender spectrum is being comfortable with a fluid gender expression.

To the degree someone has experienced the deprivation of gender identity they will find this intolerable.

They will want gender to be a clearly defined all or nothing duality made up of man and woman. The thinking is rigid and black or white (dualistic)

They cannot afford anything else because anything else comes with the suffering of confusion and living in a perpetual existential crisis that cannot be resolved.

The spectrum is only possible in the absence of suffering otherwise it becomes something that needs to be escaped from and not embraced up until that time where living with a fluid gender expression is no longer threatening which would be after reaching the opposite side of the duality of man and woman.

In the face of gender dysphoria a fluid gender expression is a luxury someone suffering from gender dysphoria cannot afford.

For a transsexual woman living on a spectrum is a form of purgatory that must be endured until it can be escaped but once it is escaped it can be embraced because it ceases to cause pain once the gender dysphoria has been resolved through transitioning.

A fluid gender expression may be driven by pain as the need and attempt to escape it but it also may be driven by its absence. When it is motivated by pain it is only fluid as a movement toward a goal. The goal and intent defines the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual woman.

From the observers perspective they could appear to be one and the same thing but time eventually reveals the differences.

When it is driven by pain it becomes a search for the truth that leads one out of the wilderness of confusion and that intense experience of wrongness/falseness

It is not an attempt to be expansive and all inclusive by developing other aspects of the self because there is no self to do this with.

External expressions do not define inner truths when those truths are being defined by those who do not understand them. The observers of behavior often do not understand the complexities behind the very behavior they seek to define because they have not lived the experience.

A fluid gender expression is an expression of sound psychological health in the absence of mental illness (psychosis).

It can also be an expression of painful searching driven by suffering which creates the complusive need to live the self that is known but being prevented from being lived and seen (escape the suffering).

In this place you are sane because you question your sanity as to whether transitioning is a sane act or not, where those suffering psychosis clearly do not.

[Zooey]

Lena, most of the replies in here are not from CDs. They're from TS women, asserting that we're not really on the same spectrum as CDs.

[flatlander_48]

Suzanne F:

Given that my whole process was fairly delayed (discovery of sexual orientation in my early 40's, discovery of gender identity in my early 50's), it could be that I suppressed it so long that I became oblivious to it. I can't say. Or, since I've made the discovery, I am able to be DeeAnn enough that it provides a good balance. Both DeeAnn and Don are comfortable with the respective levels of activity. What I have also discovered (16-18 years ago) is that I function on more of an intuitive level. For someone who spent 40+ years in a technical profession, that is quite unusual. Certainly as a degreed engineer, I can do logic, but it is not my default for approaching work and problem solving. The way it works is that logic exists to support the intuition.

Intuition also has considerable bearing on how I interact with people. I get a sense of people beyond their physicality. I can't tell what's wrong, but I can tell when something is "off". Historically, I've had better relationships with women compared to men. Only in relatively recent times has that begun to be more balanced. Women have frequently confided in me; surprising things such as health issues or relationship issues. Even more surprising is that I have confided in some of them regarding sexuality and gender identity. I can only guess that some sort of deeply rooted connection exists and in both directions.

At a very young age I knew about things like D'orsay pumps, boat neck necklines, long line bras, bust darts, etc. I never tried to consciously memorize anything, but I guess subconsciously it just stuck.

I have always cried at movies. The only difference was that, until recently, I suppressed it so much that my reaction was reduced to a slight sniffle. This evening it happened again. I'm leading a team that is evaluating films and shorts that have been submitted for the LGBTQ Film Festival in September. This afternoon I watched a short called Hearts & Minds. It is about the road to marriage equality, the strategies and the roll of the funding structure called the Civil Marriage Collaborative. It made a very strong impression on me as I listened to the leaders of various organizations talk about how things progressed and their reaction to the final ruling. Even now as I'm just discussing it, the emotions wash over me as it did 6 hours ago.

Across 3 events last October, I outted myself to over 200 people: ~130 while dressed as DeeAnn and the rest saw a photo of DeeAnn.

Individually, these thoughts would fall into the "So what?" category. However, in aggregate it suggests a different picture that to me is something beyond being a Crossdresser.


All the talk about gender dysphoria might mislead someone into thinking they are on a spectrum or something.

LeaP:

I suspect that if you're at one end of the spectrum, you only see the other end point and not what lies between.


No ones personality should change from presentation unless they are faking something (fetish?) or holding back (pre-transition TS). So you dress some of the time.... That sounds like a CD comfortable with themselves actually.

I don't think so. Many Crossdressers here have said that their female persona is a different person; implying that there is a distinct change. When they cross the gender boundary, they become someone else. That is not the case for me. It is hard to quantify, but I would guess that my persona is roughly 70%/30%, male to female. That is independent of presentation.

DeeAnn

[becky77]

I'm going to use MtF example here:

Imagine every MtF TS was born with a female body.

Now every Transexuals mind and body match so what are they? They're just women and therefore wouldn't be considered in a spectrum. Does anyone disagree with that logic?

In real life when a MtF TS transitions and changes their body to match their mind they also don't belong on a spectrum they are just women. So in theory every CDer that thinks a transitioned TS woman is on a spectrum with them doesn't see them as women which begs the question is it a form of transphobia?

To me when someone says I belong to a spectrum that includes fetishists and Drag queens what I hear is this:
"I don't believe you are female, your identity is unimportant to me you are a man and will always be a man who crossdressers full-time"
It's incredibly hurtful and why I believe so many TS turn their back on the Trans community.

At some point an inbetweener or Gender fluid will question this and again I say imagine if a Gender fluid MtF was born female......they would still be Gender fluid just FtM gender fluid.
So the Gender fluid is still on the spectrum but where am I? Oh yeah that's right I'm off living my life normally because having been born with a female body I have no gender issues so will never need to even think of this.
When you reverse the body situation it makes the idea of TS being in the spectrum false.
In my opinion.

[Starling]

It may take a lifetime, but it always gets down to knowing in your bones that you are a woman, which for the ten-thousandth time is a feeling that cannot be explained to someone who doesn't feel it. I think if you spend years relentlessly testing this perception of yourself, whether by introspection, research or psychotherapy; and beat yourself up with shame and guilt, sometimes ruining your health, in a vain attempt to paper over the gaping hole in your life, you are not a recreational cross-dresser, Bunky.

:) Lallie

[LeaP]

(Repost .... Hit send too soon!)

No, DeeAnn. I exhibit a range of behavior and expression. Some of it is characteristically male and some female. Gender can be regarded as a spectrum, but as a sociological concept its meaning is misunderstood in a trans context.

I used to describe myself in spectrum terms, matrices even. In fact, I hadn't figured out what was going on and was trying to conceptualize what turned out to be symptoms and manifestations. TS typically lose the need for gendered expression per se when they get past discovery (often in crisis). Dressing pre-transition frequently stops and, as Misty and others have indicated, many never really did much anyway. There might be NO cross-gendered expression at all. No interest in it, no need for it ... yet there is still an incredible need to transition. (That alone should give anyone pause). GD, too, as understood by most, also diminishes or disappears. There is a need to be and to be seen for what you are, but gendered expression assumes its normal place, which is social alignment and preference.

In a similar vein, I had a period where I had a strong sense of being female. I've written extensively about it here. It's pretty much gone, the only trace being a sense of same-sex attraction to women. I've attributed its diminishment to habituation, mostly because I could still consciously evoke it, but that's gone, too. One doesn't create a sense of their sex any more than their sexuality. I don't feel it (being female) ... but I know it. And gender per se is a secondary implication and not truly an identity.

So when I hear things like xx% thus and xx% that, it doesn't make sense or resonate any longer. At all. That doesn't mean I don't believe those who say such things or even that such things might exhibit over ranges. It does, however, mark an essential difference.

One last thing. The concept of spectra is useful, but even so, boundaries often define concrete differences, including defining distinct entities and phenomena. Eliminating the essence and foundation of uniqueness by reducing it to a lowest common denominator also erases it.

[PretzelGirl]

No ones personality should change from presentation unless they are faking something (fetish?) or holding back (pre-transition TS). So you dress some of the time.... That sounds like a CD comfortable with themselves actually. :idontknow:


I don't think so. Many Crossdressers here have said that their female persona is a different person; implying that there is a distinct change. When they cross the gender boundary, they become someone else. That is not the case for me. It is hard to quantify, but I would guess that my persona is roughly 70%/30%, male to female. That is independent of presentation.

I do think so. Thank you for stating you feel 70/30. I accept that. So in expressing your feminine side, you are working with a part of you. That isn't changing your personality. If someone is decidedly male and they act female, they are changing their personality. So this becomes something else other than exploring their gender identity. They are exploring expression, diving into fetish behavior, role playing, etc... They can pick one or another, but you can't be 100% male and explore the feminine part of yourself. Now we could throw a grenade in here and talk about whether gender norms are good or not and everything blurs....

[tgirlamc]

Hi All,

Wow!!! ... A lot of great thoughts being put forward in this thread!!!!... I feel the only spectrum we are on is the one all people are on! I think everyone cis, trans...whoever, has some mix of what is regarded as male and female characteristics. It's when the mix is far out of proportion with the birth body that the mind seeks some adjustment/alignment...

The psych industry is all about the search for the right box to place people in.. Once they find the box they feel is the right one, they can declare what the patient is and treat them in the manner that the wisdom of the day prescribes...Everyone does this to some degree as well. The mind is always seeking pigeon holes to place complex concepts about people into more mentally digestible groupings... For good or for bad, such is our nature.

The important part is that in the end each of us is the only one that really knows exactly what is inside us. I use an analogy when I do public speaking engagements that I am the only one that must live inside this house of flesh that I was given... If I want to have the outside renovated and have the house re-plumbed...so be it!!!!

Take Care All,
Ashley :)

[Nikki.]

Lea, your last post was one of the most helpful and illuminating I've read on this site to date. Thank you.

[flatlander_48]

I do think so. Thank you for stating you feel 70/30. I accept that. So in expressing your feminine side, you are working with a part of you. That isn't changing your personality. If someone is decidedly male and they act female, they are changing their personality. So this becomes something else other than exploring their gender identity. They are exploring expression, diving into fetish behavior, role playing, etc... They can pick one or another, but you can't be 100% male and explore the feminine part of yourself. Now we could throw a grenade in here and talk about whether gender norms are good or not and everything blurs....

To carry that a bit further, I remember the first time that I read a post here about this change as one crossed the gender boundary. I had to re-read it as it was just foreign to my experience. Then I thought maybe there was something wrong or odd about how I experienced things. But the telling point for me was this. People also readily referred to their female persona in the third person. I never liked doing that as, to me, it isn't 2 separate personas. The only time that I do make such a reference is when there is a specific purpose or meaning to be conveyed. It is not routine on my part.

Note that 70/30 is purely a guess on my part. I don't know of any specific way to quantify this, but it feels like an upper limit. It's possible that it could be 80/20 or 90/10, but it definitely isn't 100/0 or 0/100.

Over the last 6 days, I've been to a total of 4 events and meetings presenting, and introducing myself, as DeeAnn. When I was working, that would have been the max for a month. Since my time is more flexible now, as long as there is sufficient time to camp and de-camp (in the original sense of the word), it works out well.

One final point regarding loss of identity as has been mentioned here. As soon as you say Transgender to the population at large, the first thought means transition. I think that is the majority opinion that people have from what they see in the press. Folks hear Transgender and they think Janet Mock, the Wachowskis, Laverne Cox, Caitlyn Jenner, etc. What that says, in a practical sense, is that everyone else under the umbrella would have their identities usurped, not Transsexuals.


So when I hear things like xx% thus and xx% that, it doesn't make sense or resonate any longer. At all. That doesn't mean I don't believe those who say such things or even that such things might exhibit over ranges. It does, however, mark an essential difference.

The numbers have to do more with my education as an engineer. I am conditioned to understand information numerically. And, as I said, I don't know of any specific way to quantify this. Intuitively the thought is "something more than half" as the perspective and influence of the male part is larger. But, it also allows that the perspective and influence of the female part is significant. 70/30 seemed like a convenient way of describing this.

I would think that the sole difference in how you view 70/30, compared to how I view it, is in the difference in perspective. If we consider male/female, your world is more like 0/100. For me, that would represent losing the male part (speaking psychologically and not physically) and I wouldn't like that. But, I am equally sure that 100/0 wouldn't work either as DeeAnn occupies a particular part of my being and that would also constitute a major loss.

DeeAnn

[Badtranny]

You seem to subscribe to the binary construct, so explain this. I am not a Crossdresser and don't have enough dysphoria to consider transitioning.

Binary? Well there's only two choices on a birth certificate so that's kind of what we all deal with, subscription or not.

If you are a man with a male name and identity and you wear women's clothes for the express purpose of changing your appearance than you are by definition a cross dresser. I don't understand your insistence that you're not. The very fact that you assign any value at all to dressing like a woman pretty much makes the argument that you are indeed a cross dresser, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't personally understand the power of the panties, but that's none of my business.

Gender queer folks don't have two names, they aren't closeted to any degree.




I would posit that those who Crossdress and eventually transition were never really Crossdressers to begin with.

well that's not exactly a groundbreaking position, ..and it also directly contradicts your spectrum argument




That sounds very dismissive. Was that your intent?

Well, I don't know that 'dismissive' is pejorative in that sense. Do CD's play dress up or not? I know when I first discovered cross dressing back in 2008/09 I was absolutely playing dress up. It was great fun for about a year until suddenly it wasn't fun anymore. The realization that I was escaping my life by playing dress up and pretending to be someone else hit me like a ton of bricks. So I faced my demons and stopped cross dressing. A few months later I was seeing a therapist.

Cross dressing dudes have a gender problem for sure. I don't know what it is, I don't pretend to understand it, but they are definitely on some kind of spectrum. TS (the way we define it here) people are definitely binary in their feelings. When I was a little boy who wanted to be a little girl, those feelings did not manifest in wearing mom's clothes. Maybe if my sister would have been 2 years older instead of 2 years younger things would have been different. I don't really care. The point is, I thought Pinocchio was crazy for wanting to be a boy. I didn't wish to be somewhere in the middle, I wished I was a girl. I knew my body didn't match the other girls, it never occurred to me that my clothes were part of the problem.

[Jenniferathome]

Well, as just a normal, boring old cross dresser, I have some input here:


... regarding cross-dressing vs transgender. She said that the current belief of many in the Psych community is that being transgender and being a cross-dresser are not two separate things but are now considered to be just different points along the same spectrum. ...

I have long maintained that I am not transgender just because I am a cross dresser. I'm a man. I never think I am not a man, regardless of attire. And isn't that the nature of transgender? The not knowing or knowing you are incorrectly gendered? I'm just a poser. I don't want to be a woman, but for some really odd reason (which I attribute to genetics only) i like to appear as a woman from time to time. To me, that is so much weirder than being trans. I think that is why the normals can handle Caitlyn Jenner but still be confused by cross dressers.



.. When I told my therapist that I didn't think I was really transexual because of that, she said this: "that doesn't mean you're not a woman inside, it just means that you're not a cross dresser". Then she went on to explain something that made perfect sense, which was women's clothes have nothing to do with being a woman.

Women know this. CD's do not.

I agree with your therapist, but SOME CD's know this.


... One CD from this forum had a pleasant dinner with a month or so ago he is definitely a man and has no confusion or uncertainty about his identity. And I have none about mine as a woman ....

That's me! It was nice meeting you Teresa and I, too, have no confusion as to who you are. You are women.


... Do they not wear female clothes to feel feminine? Are they wearing female clothing to confirm their manliness? ....

Yes and no to your two questions but that has nothing to do with a spectrum. I think the telling part of this is how few transwomen actually cross dressed or did so rarely. And when they did, they report that it didn't make them feel "right." That can't be more opposite from the cross dresser experience.

[Lorileah]

being transgender and being a cross-dresser are not two separate things but are now considered to be just different points along the same spectrum.

Isn't that what we have been saying on this iste for years? :idontknow:

It's the factions here that keep separating the two

[GBJoker]

It's the factions here that keep separating the two

Indeed, the pattern continues. Same pattern seen in all aspects of life.

[flatlander_48]

Binary? Well there's only two choices on a birth certificate so that's kind of what we all deal with, subscription or not.

That's for legal purposes and originally was solely based on plumbing. It says nothing about ones psychological state. And you know what, even if I were to transition and have every kind of surgery you can name, my birth certificate would STILL read M. I am from one of those states that will not change the gender marker unless some sort of mistake was made (such as the doctor or nurse thought M, but wrote F). They will NOT make allowances for gender affirmation.


If you are a man with a male name and identity and you wear women's clothes for the express purpose of changing your appearance than you are by definition a cross dresser. I don't understand your insistence that you're not.

You're oversimplifying this. Presentation is not the sole factor. Crossdressers identify strictly as male (I do not). They do not have significant parts of their being that are female (but I do). Crossdressers have a mental transformation when presenting as female compared to male (I do not). MANY Crossdressers are completely closeted (I am not). They do not present themselves in public before large groups of the general population (I have). You said that Crossdressers dress up to do house work (but I have never done that). Crossdressers don't out themselves to co-workers (I did before I retired). Even the mayor of Cathedral City knows me as DeeAnn and not Don. These are NOT the thought processes, behaviors and activities of Crossdressers, so I don't understand your insistence that I am. Surely at some point these differences have to tip the scales. It's perfectly fine that Crossdressers do their thing as they see fit. It is a different set of needs that have to get satisfied. However, as it applies to me, there are significant differences in thoughts, behaviors and activities.


The very fact that you assign any value at all to dressing like a woman pretty much makes the argument that you are indeed a cross dresser, and there's nothing wrong with that. I don't personally understand the power of the panties, but that's none of my business.

Sorry, that sounds like an elitist attitude and it doesn't make the argument. Evidently the time that I am able to spend as DeeAnn is sufficient (as I know now, but that is not to say it is set in stone) to keep a reasonable balance in my life. For me, there is no "power of the panties". It is just another element that goes towards creating the whole.


Gender queer folks don't have two names, they aren't closeted to any degree.

And you would know that how? Anecdotally or by hard information? What's your measure here? For me, my wife knows. My daughter and son know. 7-8 close friends know. The last department manager I had knew. The vast majority of people I've met here in Cathedral City know DeeAnn and not Don. What you said is completely arbitrary and of no substance.


well that's not exactly a groundbreaking position, ..and it also directly contradicts your spectrum argument.

It has to do with misunderstanding or maybe even a misdiagnosis. That has nothing to do with the spectrum concept. I would liken what you said to people who originally identified as bisexual, but eventually figured out that they were actually gay. Easing up on denial and suppression usually does that.


Well, I don't know that 'dismissive' is pejorative in that sense. Do CD's play dress up or not? I know when I first discovered cross dressing back in 2008/09 I was absolutely playing dress up. It was great fun for about a year until suddenly it wasn't fun anymore. The realization that I was escaping my life by playing dress up and pretending to be someone else hit me like a ton of bricks. So I faced my demons and stopped cross dressing. A few months later I was seeing a therapist.

Two things: I don't play dress up and I'm not pretending to be someone that I'm not. There is only one persona, regardless of presentation.


Cross dressing dudes have a gender problem for sure. I don't know what it is, I don't pretend to understand it, but they are definitely on some kind of spectrum. TS (the way we define it here) people are definitely binary in their feelings.

To sum up, the way I interpret your view is that it seems to be either complete mismatch or none at all. Crossdressers say that they are male identified, which would be 100%/0%. As a female identified Transsexual, you would be essentially 0/100. All I'm saying is that there are points in between those extremes.

DeeAnn

[Mirya]

You seem to subscribe to the binary construct, so explain this. I am not a Crossdresser and don't have enough dysphoria to consider transitioning.
DeeAnn

If you're not a crossdresser, then what are you? Everyone has either a male identity, a female identity, or a non-binary gender identity. I'm assuming by your own descriptions of yourself, that you're some type of non-binary or genderqueer? If so, what sub-type under the huge non-binary umbrella do you specifically identify yourself as? Bigender? Genderfluid? Something else? And how did you come to that conclusion?

I personally have a very binary view of gender, so I find it difficult to fully grasp the non-binary identities, but I'm interested in trying to understand them as best I can.

[flatlander_48]

The thing is, if gender is ones INTERNAL interpretation and not trying to fit some EXTERNAL construct, I don't see why there cannot be variation.

I would not describe how I feel beyond non-binary. To my interpretation, I am not a Crossdresser, neither am I a Transsexual. I think anything beyond saying non-binary gets into very fine distinctions that may be only useful for clinicians. The only other thing that I would add is that I have no sense of fluidity. My persona is a relatively stable combination of male and female. That has not changed and is certainly not tied to presentation.

I won't duplicate what I've written in other messages on these 2 pages, but I will add this. What I remember early on was the lack of hesitation, shame and guilt. Somewhere above I said that the shame and guilt I had could be measured in minutes and likely single digits at that. About that time I ran across posts about people having serious issues with shame and guilt and how some never really got over that after years. So, that was my first clue that this sat in a very different place for me. Later on I came to realize that how I thought and what I did was VERY different from what Crossdressers here have written. The second paragraph in Post #37 lists differences that came to me quickly, so there may be a few more. To me, there are just too many things that are distinctly different.

Also, I believe the concept of bisexuality is a good parallel in the sense that it is an internal interpretation of ones sexual attractions. There is strong homosexual preference, weak homosexual preference and equal preference in regards to a gross description. All represent a combination. For example, if you have a strong homosexual preference, there is a weak heterosexual preference. Equal implies an even split between homosexual and heterosexual preferences. And, there are many incremental points along the way. I understand this as I am also bisexual. To me it is about variation and not absolutes.

DeeAnn

[KymberlyOct]

DeeAnn You have a strong sense of who you are and I think that is admirable. Many people spend their entire lives trying to figure it out and never do. As tgirlamc mentions people are always wanting to pigeon hole everyone and everything. You certainly don't fit in a pigeon hole regarding your gender identity or sexuality. I for one think that is great. You know who you are and you are comfortable in your own skin.

I posted this thread to see what we thought as a community knowing that it would incite some strong responses from both perspectives. My intention was not to be a provocateur I really wanted to get some insight as to thoughts throughout the community and they are obviously quite varied. I posted this leaning toward my therapist's opinion of a gender spectrum but I did not have a strong conviction. As I read initial replies I was swayed toward the more binary construct. ( I tend to see a lot of gray in the world instead of black and white - probably too much) I look at both sides of an issue possibly to a fault.

After reading the many replies I am back to my original leaning that my opinion is that there is a gender spectrum to some degree. I am about to state the obvious but to make a point. On a spectrum there are of course the extreme ends of that spectrum. In this case it would be those that identify intensely with either gender and that is their truth. However for those that are somewhere else on that spectrum why can that not be their truth? Who are we to know what is in their mind, heart and soul?

[becky77]

Kym do you class cis men and women on that spectrum too?
Is the spectrum based on identity or expression as the two are different?
Does a cis man with a fetish for animal costumes share the same spectrum as a cis man with a fetish for female costumes?

[tgirlamc]

I look at both sides of an issue possibly to a fault.

You ARE a Libra Sis!!!

Cya,
Ashley 😀

[KymberlyOct]

You are hilarious.
luv
your sis from another mother

- - - Updated - - -


Kym do you class cis men and women on that spectrum too?
Is the spectrum based on identity or expression as the two are different?
Does a cis man with a fetish for animal costumes share the same spectrum as a cis man with a fetish for female costumes?

As for cis men and women for me that is an easy one. The vast majority of people are at the far ends of the spectrum. That would be cis people.

Identity versus expression IMHO and that's all it is 'opinion' - Identity is who you are, what you feel, how you think. Expression is simply what is in your comfort zone about what you want to show to the world about who you are. Some people are comfortable showing the world who they are and others are not.

The example about fetishes such as animal costumes vs female costumes is apples and oranges. The concept of a gender spectrum - again I am claiming nothing about gender spectrum as fact - but the concept of a gender spectrum is about just that -gender. Maybe the same would hold true if the concept was fetishes about animal costumes.

To go a step farther - I do think that for some CDs it is truly just a fetish. Something about shoes or dresses etc turns them on and that's fine. It is of course important to know for one's self what drives them - gender identity or sexual fetish. That is why I gave DeeAnn props. She has a handle on who she is.

[arbon]

The spectrum your therapist discussed includes cis men and cis women or is it a transgender spectrum?

[Mirya]

I would not describe how I feel beyond non-binary. To my interpretation, I am not a Crossdresser, neither am I a Transsexual. I think anything beyond saying non-binary gets into very fine distinctions that may be only useful for clinicians. The only other thing that I would add is that I have no sense of fluidity. My persona is a relatively stable combination of male and female. That has not changed and is certainly not tied to presentation.

I've heard this a number of times from other people who identify themselves as non-binary. They refuse the cross-dresser label, but they do say that they're transgender. And then when I ask if they're non-binary, they typically say "yes". But then when I ask them to get specific about it, they refuse to get into details. I just find it odd that those who identify as non-binary are so unwilling to label themselves as a specific sub-type. I get that everyone is unique in their own way, and I can accept that there are people who have non-binary gender identities, but I can't accept that 100 non-binary people will have 100 different gender identities. There's got to be some overlap there, right?

Wouldn't some sort of labeling help others understand you better? And wouldn't it make it easier to find others similar to you? Just for practical purposes, it seems to make sense to me...

[GBJoker]

Everyone has either a male identity, a female identity, or a non-binary gender identity.

I have none of those. I do not see myself as a crossdresser, and simultaneously, I have come to believe many in the community that I am not transsexual. Thus... I've no clue what I am. I do not see myself as having a male, female, or even non-binary identity though.

Then again, lots of people think I'm too messed up to give any worthwhile answer. So, grain of salt and all that.

[nikkiwindsor]

I know it's human nature to classify things - that's what we do...colors: blue, red, orange; textures: soft, prickly, firm; taste: bitter, sweet, salty; emotion: happy, sad, mad, frustrated, bewildered; smell: stench, fragrant; socioeconomic status: rich, poor or somewhere in between; education: high school, associates degree, BA/BS, graduate degree, professional degree; state of matter: liquid, solid, gas, plasma; the list is infinite. But considering just how complex we are as human beings especially as it relates to the intersection between gender and sexuality do we really need to classify ourselves across this arc? Or maybe it's just a place to start. I think it's best just to share all the dimensions of one's nature and treat each person as a unique individual rather than trying to pigeon hole each of us into some artificial construct. And how I feel about myself regarding my gender shifts...after all we're living, breathing and dynamic organisms. I don't like it when someone thinks I'm this way or that. I'm a rational person and I know myself better than anyone else. And if I cannot fully understand myself and I never will b/c I'm constantly processing and assimilating new information and adjusting accordingly while maintaining certain inalienable principles at heart (justice, fairness, freedom of expression/speech, rule of law, human rights, etc) how can anyone else understand me unless I have a close, constant, transparent and honest dialogue with them? And it's only through that incessant conversation that someone can really begin to know you and grow with you as each of you changes and evolves over time.

[Nikki.]

After a lifetime of crossdressing and finally admitting to myself my gender identity is askew (I love Katey's "wobbly gender compass" euphemism), I have no idea if there's a nice category to put myself in. As a kid there were times I really wished I was a girl, but I never felt I was a girl. Remember the book Are you there God, it's me Margaret?? I probably read it 10 times wishing at times I could be like Margaret. But I was never unhappy having boy parts. I crossdressed whenever I could, stopped during high school, and started again after. Early 20's I sometimes wanted to transition. Or at least liked the idea of it. Yes there was a sexual component to CD'ing that's pretty much gone now. It was never a fun frivolity filled exercise, it was something I was compelled to do. There was no fetish over clothing, but I LIKED how I looked in heels and skirts, and I liked wearing hosiery. I still do.

So now after admitting to myself and my wife my gender ID is not cis, I have nagging in my head over gender identity. I'm not depressed or anxious or mad about being a guy. But I feel a deep innate need to present as a female. I like putting on makeup and a wig and how I look when I do so. If I had my druthers I would live that way sometimes, but not all the time. I get some sense of positive feeling when I look in the mirror, though I'm not so jazzed about my guyness showing through. It's not a lark, I don't wear a French maid outfit and dust the lampshades. I want to look blendable. If there were no external restrictions on how I presented, I would probably pick in the middle, so if I wanted to present either way, I could do so easily and blend.

I would love to have my nails done and ears pierced. It makes sense to me that BT says the accoutrements of womanhood have no special meaning to her. I think for me they do because I'm not a woman, I'm somewhere in between in my gender ID, so they are symbolism of that side. Not sure though.

So a nice easy box to fit myself into? Not seeing it. If I had to guess on my gender ID ratio? 50:50, but that's a swag.

I also see some absolute thinking or categorization in this thread, and on this forum in general. I find it hard to believe there are NO TS folks that actually were cross dressers and truly identified as such, and then changed or evolved and determined they were TS. I see strong opinions posted from a few TS peeps that in summary state "always a woman, born into wrong body, medical issue, had to fix". I'm not discounting anyone's belief in that regard, and I accept you as women. When I read your posts, my subconscious identifies you as women. But I am saying that to project your experience on every TS woman out there seems myopic. I try not project my TG wobbly compass experience on every CD out there. I get there are some, many that don't have a gender ID issue and just like wearing women's clothes, or it's a turn on for them. And there's a ton of variety in between.

Just my wobbly compassed opinion :).

[LeaP]

I've love to see this become a TS forum someday ...

[Georgette_USA]

I also see some absolute thinking or categorization in this thread, and on this forum in general. I find it hard to believe there are NO TS folks that actually were cross dressers and truly identified as such, and then changed or evolved and determined they were TS.


I may have identified as a CD early on, in the 50-60s, because there was very little to be found on the TS idea. When I was found out in the military in 1972, still used that identity.

It wasn't until after that in 1974 and was able to read some and met CDs that I knew that wasn't just what I was. Also found others like me, and some that were transitioning like myself and some that had transitioned already. Even then there was very little on the subject. Dr Benjamin wrote his book on that. There were only a few to read about prior. It was not in the DSM II at that time, it only identified the TV ID.

After that I realized what I was and had a course of action to proceed. Not sure I really truly identified as a CD, but there wasn't any other idea prior.

What you see now are all products of those early times, and the dawn of the Usenet/Internet.

[GBJoker]

Nikki_P: I actually jumped straight from nothing to being TS. Never identified as a CD.

[Mirya]

I have none of those. I do not see myself as a crossdresser, and simultaneously, I have come to believe many in the community that I am not transsexual. Thus... I've no clue what I am. I do not see myself as having a male, female, or even non-binary identity though.


What you wrote doesn't make sense. By definition, every human being MUST have a male, female, or non-binary gender identity.

[docrobbysherry]

Like a of folks here that r commenting about others they have no clue about!:brolleyes:

Jennifer, while I hate to agree with u, I believe u r correct about CD's. My journey may confirm that. When I began dressing out of the blue at age 50+, I believe I was trans. I wanted female breasts, fantasized about SRS, and nothing about any of it turned me on. :straightface:

Then, over the next 10+ years, I transitioned. Into what u may ask? Into a "fetish CD", (Your description, not mine!):tongueout

I only know I have no woman inside me trying to get out or female side. And, I have lost all interest in having breasts or SRS, etc. Chew on THAT all u "experts"!:devil:

[GBJoker]

Mirya: Why? I didn't. What can I say.

[Zooey]

I've love to see this become a TS forum someday ...

That's unpossible! Remember, we're all the same - we just went all the way. It's easy when you don't love your family enough to lie to them for decades. Plus, CDs are women anyway, so long as they're wearing a dress.

Seriously though... Yes.

[Nikki.]

I don't recall anyone writing any of those things (which I get why you find objectionable) in this thread. are we moving to snark mode now? Serious talk time trying to actually understand real people's perspectives over?

[KymberlyOct]

The spectrum your therapist discussed includes cis men and cis women or is it a transgender spectrum?

My therapist's comments were related specifically to a transgender spectrum. My reply about trans and cis on a gender spectrum was in response to how Becky worded her question to me.

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn You have a strong sense of who you are and I think that is admirable. Many people spend their entire lives trying to figure it out and never do. As tgirlamc mentions people are always wanting to pigeon hole everyone and everything. You certainly don't fit in a pigeon hole regarding your gender identity or sexuality. I for one think that is great. You know who you are and you are comfortable in your own skin.

Thanks So Much!

Some years ago I spent the better part of a decade doing introspection kinds of things. While it did have a positive effect on my life in general, one of the important things it did for me was to learn to listen to myself. And that is a reminder to consider ones thoughts and reactions in the context of a singular event, but also to consider it in the larger context.

I would think about something that happened to me and how I felt about, but I would also think about why my reaction was very different compared to many others here. And it's not that I sat down and an hour later had it sorted. It's been going on since the first time that I dressed and went out back in 2003. It's a matter of thinking, slowly, about why you thought the way you did or reacted the way you did.

I like to consider things in terms of parallels, so that's why I mentioned bisexuality. And before anyone is led to "It's just a phase." or "You're just in denial.", initially I did think I was gay. After several years it eventually occurred to me that bisexual was a much better description. Anyway, the parallel was that in my first encounter with a man (and I was almost 50 at the time) there was no hesitation or reluctance about what I was doing. It just seemed appropriate for me. Similarly, the first time that I went out dressed, what I was doing really wasn't a problem for me. Certainly I was concerned about the possibility of running into crazy people, but I was very comfortable in what I was doing. That's what made me realize that what I felt and what I did was indeed appropriate for me.


I've heard this a number of times from other people who identify themselves as non-binary. They refuse the cross-dresser label, but they do say that they're transgender. And then when I ask if they're non-binary, they typically say "yes". But then when I ask them to get specific about it, they refuse to get into details. I just find it odd that those who identify as non-binary are so unwilling to label themselves as a specific sub-type. I get that everyone is unique in their own way, and I can accept that there are people who have non-binary gender identities, but I can't accept that 100 non-binary people will have 100 different gender identities. There's got to be some overlap there, right?

Wouldn't some sort of labeling help others understand you better? And wouldn't it make it easier to find others similar to you? Just for practical purposes, it seems to make sense to me...

I can speak only about my thoughts. I'm not refusing the notion of being a Crossdresser. However, the problem is that it doesn't cover most of how I think and what I do. When you look at the second paragraph of Post #37, it should be clear that there are a lot of differences; significant differences. It isn't good or bad; it's just different. With respect to me, any definition with so many gaps in it isn't useful.

Regarding the sub-types you mentioned, it isn't unwilling. The truth is that to this point, I've just not considered it. Currently, it doesn't seem to be a priority to me. That's not to say that I will never consider it, it's just there's no burning need so I haven't invested any effort. Over time, there have been a number of threads concerning the WHY behind what people do. I've never really invested energy in that either. From my perspective, I don't believe that knowing would change what I do or how I think.

Not sure if it would help the understanding of others. It seems that people either believe what I say or they try to morph it into something else that fits their own views. In that sense, the former wouldn't change and people won't stop trying to do the latter. All I can do is try to be clear about explaining my thoughts. How they get interpreted by others is beyond my influence.

DeeAnn

[Dana44]

Nice comment Zooey.
Since I am gender fluid. My SO say's that I am not either/or but I am both/and male/female. So me thinks that I am pretty in the middle of the transgender spectrum. I agree that clothes do not make one a woman. I run in drab as a feminine mode as well a male. But when I am fem I do like to express my femininity and that is wearing female clothes and at that time I do feel like a woman. Yet in drab it is what it is boo hoo. But we can't always schedule when it happens and it is so fun trying to be manly when your are in your feminine frame of mind. But we had a life time of social male conditioning so we can muddle thought it.
I have a strange question. Why is the transsexual group running a thread on crossdressers and transgender? I mean you are definitely women, why would this be interesting to you. I can say without a doubt that some of the CD gals are women or very close to be one. So we have a lot of threads on what we are wearing, etc.

My SO asked if the transsexuals insist on saying that wearing a dress does not make one a woman, how are they presenting as a woman other than the clothes that they wear? What is different. Or are we all in the same spectrum.

[Zooey]

I don't recall anyone writing any of those things (which I get why you find objectionable) in this thread. are we moving to snark mode now? Serious talk time trying to actually understand real people's perspectives over?

Call it a preemptive.


Since I am gender fluid. My SO say's that I am not either/or but I am both/and male/female.

I would like to dive into this further, as I recently got into a bit of a thing with somebody over it. I think we have a terminology problem.

Male/female are sexes.
Masculine/feminine are traits or characteristics.
Man/woman are identities (as are non-binary, etc.)

So, with respect to non-binary people, my contention is that:

They are either male, female, or perhaps have an indeterminate or combination intersex condition
They have some combination of masculine and feminine characteristics
They are neither men nor women. They are non-binary.

Thoughts?


My SO asked if the transsexuals insist on saying that wearing a dress does not make one a woman, how are they presenting as a woman other than the clothes that they wear? What is different. Or are we all in the same spectrum.

I'll just speak for myself here, so as to avoid trouble.

I present as a woman in the same way that any woman does (until genitals get involved) - by living my life as a woman. I work as a woman, I date as a woman, I sleep as a woman, I relax as a woman. I have an F on all of my ID. There is no point at which I am living as anything other than a woman. It doesn't matter what I'm wearing at the time. With apologies in advance to Marcelle (whom I deeply respect as a woman), I run on estrogen like a woman, I have breasts like a woman, and I look a lot more like a woman than a man, regardless of what I'm wearing - including when I'm wearing nothing.

[Mirya]

DeeAnn, you wrote, "I am not a Crossdresser" in post #39. Then, less than 6 hours later you wrote, "I'm not refusing the notion of being a Crossdresser" in post #58. Isn't that a contradiction? I don't understand what you're saying.

GBJoker, you wrote in post #46 that you're not a crossdresser and not a transsexual. And you added that you have no male, female, or even a non-binary identity. And then you wrote in post #52 that you "actually jumped straight from nothing to being TS". I assume by TS you mean transsexual? But you said earlier that you're not a transsexual. I don't get it.

Please, help me understand and clarify what each of you meant, because my brain is telling me that you're contradicting yourselves. But maybe I'm wrong.

[Zooey]

Anyway, this whole thing comes down to identity vs. expression.

As far as I can tell, most crossdressers here (not all) have next to no ability to distinguish between these two things, and pretty visibly conflate them constantly. They can't see the difference between adopting a persona, no matter how well developed the character is, and having an identity.

If your identity is contingent on the clothes you're wearing at the time, it's not an identity - sorry. It's a persona; a character you're choosing to play.

[arbon]

My SO asked if the transsexuals insist on saying that wearing a dress does not make one a woman, how are they presenting as a woman other than the clothes that they wear? What is different. Or are we all in the same spectrum.

Two recent pictures of me. Would your SO consider me a man in one and female in the other based on what I am wearing? I'm the same woman either way. At my night time fast food job, no one refers to me as "he" even though I am wearing a guys shirt.

[flatlander_48]

DeeAnn, you wrote, "I am not a Crossdresser" in post #39. Then, less than 6 hours later you wrote, "I'm not refusing the notion of being a Crossdresser" in post #58. Isn't that a contradiction? I don't understand what you're saying.

OK, said another way...

I am not a Crossdresser. But, any notion that would suggest that I said that because I reject the label out of hand would not be correct. I am not a Crossdresser because the characteristics don't match up.

So, it isn't contradiction. It isn't running from the possibility of being a Crossdresser. It is realizing the shortcomings in the definition compared to what I think, how I behave and what I do. The same logic can be applied to the Transsexual end of the spectrum. That doesn't match well either.

DeeAnn

[PretzelGirl]

I have a strange question. Why is the transsexual group running a thread on crossdressers and transgender?

Well, the mods get to decide what is here. Content tends to fluctuate and it seems we are having more discussions in this subforum related to identity, whether the OP intended it or not.


My SO asked if the transsexuals insist on saying that wearing a dress does not make one a woman, how are they presenting as a woman other than the clothes that they wear? What is different. Or are we all in the same spectrum.

Getting to the nuts and bolts, I don't have to present as a woman to be a woman. Presenting is expression and being a woman is identity. But like Melissa (and many others) it starts with how I feel. Then it goes through the things like body modifications I choose. I may or may not use hormones. I may or may not get surgery. Everything else I do is variable. I only have to feel, the rest is my choice. I know that really broadens it, but it is the base starting point.


Please, help me understand and clarify what each of you meant, because my brain is telling me that you're contradicting yourselves. But maybe I'm wrong.

They are. And then the get unhappy when called out. Consistency is important to be believable. Evolution is fine, most of us do. But inconsistency is identifiable.

[flatlander_48]

They are. And then the get unhappy when called out. Consistency is important to be believable. Evolution is fine, most of us do. But inconsistency is identifiable.

No, what I said was consistent as the thought was originally formed. However, I type with 3 fingers so anything I type will take some time. Sometimes thoughts may not be fully filled out. In any event, as I completed the thought above, let's not manufacture inconsistency when there is none.

DeeAnn

[PretzelGirl]

What????? If you say one thing in one post and another thing in another post, that inconsistent. It doesn't matter how many fingers you use. C'mon! Really?

[flatlander_48]

Did you read the full statement? The idea was rejected solely because it didn't fit. It had nothing to do with not wanting to be called a Crossdresser. If it's true, it's true. If it's not, it's not and I think something was read into the statement that was not intended.

Also, when I say that I identify as Transgender, I'm also quick to point out that everyone who considers themselves to be Transgender is not looking to transition. In that case, I don't have a problem with the term, but I do have a problem with how it has been reconfigured in the current press. The clarification makes the point clear.

And yes, occasionally I get a bit economical with a given thought. There is sometimes a conscious process to minimize the amount of verbiage. That's just how it is as it does take me considerably longer to fashion a message. Really.

DeeAnn

[Zooey]

Economy of words is not the same as economy of thought, and neither are generally the most efficient way to communicate.

Much better to simply lead with complete, consistent thoughts, assuming they were actually consistent.

[flatlander_48]

Not necessarily. The chances that a posting is read is usually inversely proportional to its length.

So, is Post #64 NOT consistent? Please point out where it is not.

DeeAnn

[GBJoker]

Mirya: In the past I jumped straight from nothing to being a transsexual. Soon as I understood what the term "transsexual" meant, I realized that was what I was. (Man, that's crappy English writing there...)

But I've recently been convinced by several people (mostly people here) that I am not a transsexual.

So I don't know what I am.

[KymberlyOct]

I have a strange question. Why is the transsexual group running a thread on crossdressers and transgender?


Well, the mods get to decide what is here. Content tends to fluctuate and it seems we are having more discussions in this subforum related to identity, whether the OP intended it or not

As the OP my intent was to discuss the opinion of my therapist that crossdressing is a part of a transgender spectrum. How that occurred in my visit with her was that I made a comment distinguishing CD vs TG to which she replied - 'well actually the current view of many in the gender psychology field is that CD and TG are merely two different points along the same spectrum" I found this interesting from an identity perspective as I am newly transitioning and am considering many thoughts. Therefore, I wanted to get the insight of this group on the topic and concept of a CD and TG spectrum and whether it was a valid point of view. I expected some strong opinions in each direction and was not disappointed. I do think it has been an interesting and eye opening discussion with good points made from a variety of opinions.

[Mirya]

Mirya: In the past I jumped straight from nothing to being a transsexual. Soon as I understood what the term "transsexual" meant, I realized that was what I was. (Man, that's crappy English writing there...)

But I've recently been convinced by several people (mostly people here) that I am not a transsexual.


What do you mean by "nothing"? You were "nothing"? What's that supposed to mean? I don't understand.

As for the definition of "transsexual" - according to the sticky that's posted in this forum, that definition is "An individual who is changing their assigned birth gender permanently to that of the opposite." So if you are going through that process or have already done it, then you're a transsexual, and if you're not, you're not a transsexual. That's pretty simple, right?


So I don't know what I am.

And that's totally ok. If you currently don't know what you are, that's fine. Not everyone knows to begin with. But don't you want to know what you are? Don't you think you owe it to yourself to find out what your true gender identity is, whether that's male, female, or non-binary? Maybe you should talk to a gender therapist and figure it out? Or are you content to continue to live as you are? If that's the case, I would posit that you're a confused cross-dresser, because you're not questioning your assigned-at-birth gender identity.

[St. Eve]

Just wanting to say THANK YOU all for having this discussion.
It helps me a lot to hear all the different opinions.

I seem to resonate most with what DeeAnn has been describing. I do not necessarily have much to add....just wanted to say I am grateful to feel part of this community.

Peace
Stevie

[becky77]

Hi Kym

When I first started truly exploring my gender issues I decided to find other trans people so found a popular club/bar in London. I needed to reach out and find others like me.

I went several times and to different places but I nearly always discovered the same thing, I didn't fit and I couldn't understand why until some more self discovery later.

The thing is there I was in a place full of trans people but they were men in dresses, now when I say that it's not meant as dismissive many looked terrific, some really pretty and totally passable but that is just 'expression' when I engaged people in conversation despite looking every inch a feminine woman they wanted to drink beer, talk sports and women. Mentally they were men.
If I was blind and couldn't see the outfits then it was no different to going into a regular guys bar (if you ignored the chat about what they were wearing).

My point is most of these men had no identity/gender issues they just had issues with society not allowing them to express the look/clothes they liked. Their need was to be allowed to show their feminine style, it was all about the clothes never how they felt internally identifying as a man.
I would hear stuff like "Why can't I wear a skirt and heels at work" rather than "Why do I struggle to bond and communicate with the men at work".
The vast majority of Crossdressers are like this, they have lots of issues with expression rarely any issue with identity, wanting to look like a woman is not the same as being a woman. How many would be women if they could only ever wear trousers and we're average looking with a flat chest? Take away the feminine look and most are not interested.

If expression and identity are in the same spectrum then every human sits in that spectrum making it irrelevant.
If the spectrum is gender expression then sure fetishists and drag etc but I don't belong there.
If the spectrum is purely trans identity then OK I accept I'm down one end of it, but I don't accept male identity fetishists or Drag in that spectrum we have nothing in common.

Right now the spectrum to me just feels like a nice easy way to marginalise all the weirdos together hence why I don't like it.

[donnalee]

Reading all this reminds me that people are not rational creatures; rather they are rationalizing ones.

[Marcelle]

This may stir up some opinions but I had an interesting conversation with my therapist last week regarding cross-dressing vs transgender. She said that the current belief of many in the Psych community is that being transgender and being a cross-dresser are not two separate things but are now considered to be just different points along the same spectrum.

Hi Kim,

To your original query I can respond with an understanding of the field as I am educated in psych side of the house and have many colleagues who deal/dealt with gender identity issues. The common belief among psychologists (including those with various levels of understanding of gender identity issues) is this spectrum theory. However, it is posited on observations made by psychologists who deal mainly with TS folk. Now there are some TS folk who know from the start they were born in the wrong body and there are others who wander toward that epiphany after years of struggle, confusion, guilt and utter chaos . . . I was one such person. When this hits you like the coyote having the roadrunner drop a piano on his head . . . you don't know what to make of it so you grab tenuously at something . . . I must be CD. However you quickly realize that the clothes do nothing to quell the chaos, perhaps for a mayfly existence in time but in the end the confusion returns. It is not until you truly understand that is about being who you were meant to be (in my case a woman), that you stop thinking about heels, dresses, make-up and whatnot and start thinking about just being.

So to bottle the genie, from a research perspective it is plausible that this conception about a spectrum is predicated on psychs dealing with TS folk who are confused at first and when the conversation about crossdressing comes up . . . well . . . it seems we all start there at some point so it is probable that researchers in the field are going to define a neat spectrum to place people along in an effort to diagnose. My take on this is that this is a "red herring" or an extraneous variable which has no bearing on TS folk and where we are in the grander scheme of things. Specifically, the field is confusing dressing which is most likely the first step in expressing the person you need to be as some sort of "gateway expression" to being TS. Vis a vis that assumption . . . then CDers are on the same spectrum. This is an erroneous assumption IMHO because it is unlikely most of the studies have included a true control group . . . actual CDers. More specifically, men who just like to dress up from time to time but know they are still men. It is more likely any studies included TS folk at varying levels of transition who are not presenting as the target gender but know in their heart of hearts they are the target gender.


The spectrum theory is bunk . . . Just because there ARE some CD's who will eventually transition does not mean that all CD's are just closeted trans folks. They also may have gender issues, but that doesn't mean they are women either. Transsexual people have a rather pronounced condition that makes them fell disconnected from their assigned gender . . .

Bluntly put but spot on IMHO and mirrors what I have seen in the literature. This is not to say CD folk don't have gender issues but it is not the same as trans folk (again . . . my opinion). When I transitioned in my life, I didn't all of a sudden take on a new personality (e.g., stereotypical feminine traits), my personality stayed the same because that is the way personality is . . . stable and consistent through life (with the exception of significant life events which can alter for a period of time). I was always a woman and personality reflected that . . . no not my mannerisms, my walk, my talk and whatnot (societal constructs folks) but who I am, how I react to things, interact, see the world and whatnot. This is what I see as a big difference between TS and CD folk. TS folk don't become a new person as their target gender, they become the person they were always destined to be. CD folk take on a mantel of the target gender but always return to their preferred gender at the end of the day.


My SO asked if the transsexuals insist on saying that wearing a dress does not make one a woman, how are they presenting as a woman other than the clothes that they wear? What is different. Or are we all in the same spectrum.

Dana,

To be specific, I don't present as a woman at work . . . I am a woman at work and that is how I am perceived. Don't get me wrong, I am not a stunning beauty by any stretch of the imagination and I have no "passing privilege" but people see me as a woman because that is who I am. It is not about the look, what I wear, how I talk, walk or whatnot it is about me knowing I am a woman and projecting that to the world writ large. People use the proper gender pronouns, refer to me by my proper name and just see me as a woman.


Cheers

Marcelle

[Nikki.]

This is a helpful post. I'm quoting and parsing to help organize my thoughts in response only.


Hi Kym

When I first started truly exploring my gender issues I decided to find other trans people so found a popular club/bar in London. I needed to reach out and find others like me.

Me too. I'm planning on a support group meeting and/or making some friends from here. Never been much of a bar person and it seems like the goal for many in going to bar is to find a sex partner or perhaps someone to date.


I went several times and to different places but I nearly always discovered the same thing, I didn't fit and I couldn't understand why until some more self discovery later.

The thing is there I was in a place full of trans people but they were men in dresses, now when I say that it's not meant as dismissive many looked terrific, some really pretty and totally passable but that is just 'expression' when I engaged people in conversation despite looking every inch a feminine woman they wanted to drink beer, talk sports and women. Mentally they were men.
If I was blind and couldn't see the outfits then it was no different to going into a regular guys bar (if you ignored the chat about what they were wearing).

So they were talking about stereotypical guy stuff. Was that a function of being in a bar; typically superficial light discussions are had, and those conversations differ based on gender?
I'm trying to think about conversations I've had with both men and women work friends, or at parties with either gender, which is about as close as I can relate to a bar convo. Seems like we always try to find commonality- what's going on with work, politics, family issues, home projects, etc. With my female friends I can think of a significant difference- their romantic relationships. Never came up with guy friends. I have zero interest in sports so that's never a topic of commonality. my sister in law is a big baseball fan, and my sister a big basketball fan, so if I was interested in either I suppose we would discuss both.



My point is most of these men had no identity/gender issues they just had issues with society not allowing them to express the look/clothes they liked. Their need was to be allowed to show their feminine style, it was all about the clothes never how they felt internally identifying as a man.
I would hear stuff like "Why can't I wear a skirt and heels at work" rather than "Why do I struggle to bond and communicate with the men at work".

Those sound like topics of commonality for a room full of cross dressers. I get why it would be of no interest to you.


The vast majority of Crossdressers are like this, they have lots of issues with expression rarely any issue with identity, wanting to look like a woman is not the same as being a woman. How many would be women if they could only ever wear trousers and we're average looking with a flat chest? Take away the feminine look and most are not interested.

If expression and identity are in the same spectrum then every human sits in that spectrum making it irrelevant.
If the spectrum is gender expression then sure fetishists and drag etc but I don't belong there.
If the spectrum is purely trans identity then OK I accept I'm down one end of it, but I don't accept male identity fetishists or Drag in that spectrum we have nothing in common.

Here's where it gets very complex for me. Above Sue wrote that (I'm paraphrasing) that her gender indentity starts with her internal feeling that she is a woman. I've read that plenty of times on here. Check/tick. You believe you ARE a woman. No issue. I've seen at least one thread, iirc in the GG section, asking what it feels like to be a woman. I'm really hung up on this concept. Because I have no idea what gender identity feels like. Do I feel like a man or a woman? Yes. I don't know. I feel like me. I discussed it with my cis gendered GG wife, who didn't get it either(and she's a pretty smart, intellectual person). Do I have some stereotypical traits that were stereotypically assigned to women in the late 20th century in Western European and American culture? Yes. I'm relational in my dealings with other people. I can be emotional when watching sappy movies. I care about other people's feelings and moderate my language and tone when speaking in an attempt to not hurt their feelings. my emotional intelligence is pretty high and I can read non verbal cues fairly well. I have always had platonic girlfriends and felt more comfortable in deeper relationships with them. I try to empathize with what my kids are feeling and measure my response accordingly when they need discipline, or a hug. or a joke. There's a bunch more.

Does that make my gender indentity more female? I don't know. I also like cars(I am not the stig). and working on them. and driving them. and driving over stuff off road. and hunting. and home repair. and spending time with family. and sci-fi (david tennant was the best doctor).

All of which are still stereotypes. Yes they can be associated with either gender. My wife like gardening. and home repair. and art. and spending time with family. she likes cars but more on the aesthetic side rather than performance interests. Our roles in life are very, very similar.

So again, do I feel like a man or a woman? Yes. I guess. I feel like me. Z wrote that most CD's conflate identity with expression. maybe. I think the two are inexorably linked, at least for me. I wrote above that I feel an nagging in my head that drives me to want to present as a woman. I have a need to wear makeup and a wig to look like one. The clothes are part of the package, but not a focus. I get some level of satisfaction when I do so. It alleviates the nagging. Does this make me feel like my GI is that of a woman? I don't know, I still feel like me. My personality doesn't change en femme. Then I take it all off, I sigh in my head, then a while later, the nagging returns.

Does this make me a transsexual? I don't think so, but maybe. Maybe the more I do it, or the more I go out and live that way for periods of time, the nagging will get stronger and stronger, and I will get depressed or anxious or otherwise feel so much dysphoria that I will decide my only option is to transition. I kinda doubt it, but I'm not close minded to the concept that's within the realm of possibilities. I've never identified as a female, but there have been times I wished I was one.

So for now I identify under the TG umbrella, my gender compass is wobbly and I think my gender ID is somewhere in the middle of what I consider a continuum, with cis on the poles at both ends.


Right now the spectrum to me just feels like a nice easy way to marginalise all the weirdos together hence why I don't like it.

Yes, I'm sure there are many agendas at play, and some of them don't have the best interests of trans people at the root.

[becky77]

Excellent post Marcelle.


Hi Nikki

In regard to conversations this is something I have learnt.
Men tailor their conversation depending on what gender they are mixing with and most GG will never see this. Nor will a CD unless joining a group of men who believe they are a woman.
As soon as a woman leaves the group the conversation becomes very different, guys talk to me now completely different they will discuss feelings and family for example which is nice but it's nothing like it was when I was accepted as a guy. That suits me fine because that's a more natural conversation to me.

It's now the opposite but years ago we would go out as a group the conversation would be great as a mixed group at some point the girls and boys split, instantly the conversation changed and suddenly it's eg nothing but Motorbikes for the next 40mins I couldn't function in that way of conversing. Now I belong with the female groups it's just different, women communicate differently and it's hard to explain unless you experience it from both perspectives.

It is an interesting dynamic the same was true at the CD gatherings despite dress everyone went into male convo mode albeit with the freedom to talk about feminine things.

In regards to your point about what it is to be a woman I can answer this:
I live as a woman and I no longer question my gender I just am, I spend no time thinking what percentage of feminine or masculine I am, I just am now. Is that a woman? All I can say is I didn't feel like that as a man.
So in a way I know I'm a woman because I feel right and being a man felt wrong.

Rather than asking if you are a woman internally perhaps look at if you have any issues being a man? (Removing any interest in clothing).

[Nikki.]

B, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I'm not aware of any issue I have being a guy. Other than the nagging in my head, which is not discontent with being a guy, but rather a need to see myself en femme. which I don't understand :)

[becky77]

B, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I'm not aware of any issue I have being a guy. Other than the nagging in my head, which is not discontent with being a guy, but rather a need to see myself en femme. which I don't understand :)

Then you aren't TS Nikki. Which is a good thing what you need is friends and a place to go to express this feminine part of you
Transition well it can be done but I have no idea why someone would want to be a full-time crossdresser but it happens. There is no right or wrong way to live as long as you understand the reasons for your actions.

[Brooklyn]

This subject of who is really transsexual seems to come up all the time, probably because there are so many crossdressers who contemplate transition. Saying it's all just a "spectrum" avoids many hard questions anyone thinking about permanently changing their gender should address head-on. You have to ask yourself if you want to live your REAL life as a man or as a woman, and if you’re willing and able to go through the many, many hardships of legal, medical, and social transition. Do not theorize your way out of doing the work or you will regret it.

[Nikki.]

Agreed and agreed. I have no desire to transition, and no desire to be TS. I just thought about it 25 years ago, and today consider myself on a journey, open to the idea that I have no idea where it will lead, but like I've consistently written, I serious doubt it would lead to transition. I don't want to :)

[PretzelGirl]

DeeAnn, I am not going to traverse back through threads. The point is that you have contradicted yourself from reply to reply, not within one reply. Look, I get non-binary and I know that not all do. I do a ton of work with in the community and I have a ton of friends that are non-binary in one "subtype", so to speak, or another. When they are will to share, each has been able to clearly explain their feelings to the point of where I learned. Or they said they were figuring it out. This does include expression being different on a daily basis because expression and identity are two different things. But if the narrative moves around, it is confusing and starts to diminish the strength of what you say.

On the subject of spectrum, I see two definitions being discussed and want to pull them apart.

One is where a person starts on one end being male (in a MTF case) and traverses across as they figure out who they are and stops at some point on this line. This *might* apply to some people, but it lays too many assumptions out and I agree with Misty as it is not a good description.

The other is picking a point on a spectrum of man to woman identity (in recognizing Zooey's distinctions) where one end is man and the other woman and the spectrum allows points where a person can describe their identity (lets get away from feelings as that can cross borders of what that means). So a person never moves across this spectrum, they live on a point and don't move at all. In reality, we can be wrong as we learn who we are and correct ourselves as we figure it out, but it isn't sliding across the spectrum, it is using a point to help understanding. So for example, my identity is completely at the end of "woman". I have a friend (female identified at birth) that described their identity to me and actually wrote this spectrum on a white board and said "I am here". The spot was about 2/3's of the way from woman to man. That helped me a lot. They are consistent in their stating this and living it.

So in the first description of spectrum, we create a path that not all take, so it can be misleading and a bad instructional tool for someone starting out who may feel they need to follow it. In the second description of spectrum, we have a tool that helps a person identify their identity in relational to man and woman and it is something you put a tack in and say "there" and not "I passed through that" or "I feel that way on some days".

[flatlander_48]

Sorry, if you are unwilling to point out where I have erred, then I have to believe that I have not and I consider this to be just unwarranted misdirection.

DeeAnn

[PretzelGirl]

No, what I said was consistent as the thought was originally formed. However, I type with 3 fingers so anything I type will take some time. Sometimes thoughts may not be fully filled out. In any event, as I completed the thought above, let's not manufacture inconsistency when there is none.


And yes, occasionally I get a bit economical with a given thought. There is sometimes a conscious process to minimize the amount of verbiage. That's just how it is as it does take me considerably longer to fashion a message. Really.

Economical = coming up short and inconsistent. It isn't my job to go back and come up with what you said. Notice you are being called out by multiple people and no one is backing you up? Here's your sign....

[flatlander_48]

If you want to complain, then you need something specific to complain about. So yes, it is your job to point out what you are objecting to. Otherwise the only conclusion is that it is no more that wasted bandwidth.

Let's be clear about something. What I write is absolutely what I believe, how I perceive things and what I do. I am always completely honest. The discussions here don't work otherwise. But, that is not to say that I expect agreement. I can only speak to my situation and that may be understood, not understood, agreed with or not.

The point I was trying to convey earlier has a parallel. Many Crossdressers here rail against the notion when someone points out that they are under the Transgender umbrella. My only guess is that they are automatically associating Transgender with transitioning as is done in the popular press. Anyway, they vehemently reject the idea that they fall under the umbrella. As this relates to me, the point is that I wasn't saying what I said because I was rejecting the idea of being a Crossdresser. What I said reflected the differences between how we define Crossdressers and what I think, how I behave and what I do or have done. While it may be possible to dismiss one or two anomalies, when you have a bunch, you can no longer make the case. So, I rejected the idea of being a Crossdresser not because I might have some difficulty with it, but because it leaves A LOT that is unexplained for me. The criteria just doesn't fit and I see no way in which it can. That is the simple truth of it.

I can't explain this any further, so if it isn't understood, I can't help it.

DeeAnn

[PretzelGirl]

I pointed it out even though it isn't my job. At this point I am bowing out of this. Your self importance and inability to listen to anyone is taking me down a path I don't like to be. I fight for our rights and as I said above, I totally affirm non-binary identities. I am done with this side bar and will only reply to the spectrum portion of the discussion.

[flatlander_48]

I find it interesting that these discussions often turn personal. I do try to be as honest and as straightforward as I can be. What I write is the truth as I perceive it. On those rare occasions when I have said something of a personal nature, it is in reaction, never in initiation.

I have covered the previous point about Crossdressers. If there is anything else where someone believes that I have contradicted myself, then please point this out. Otherwise there is nothing to which I can respond.

DeeAnn

[stefan37]

You know you are transsexual when you need to transition and take those steps to do it. Everything else is immaterial.

[Nigella]

and once again, one person turns a whole thread about themselves. I am tired of a comment being made or a question asked which then takes the whole thread off topic. Responding once is acceptable, then to keep on harping at each other is not. We have a bloody PM system, use the damn thing and keep to the topic. With apologies to Kimberly and all the others who actually contributed to the topic, this thread is now closed.