When did GG start becoming an offensive term ?

[Kelly DeWinter]

Facebook for good or bad is a place where people can post whatever they want, with hardly any moderation at all, so a thread can quickly spiral out of control (Big Kudos to our moderators here).

My Friends list contains people within the CD/TG community, non TG/CD people and people withing the G/L community. During one conversation the term GG was used by me as well as various other people. Some women of the non CD/TG persuasion took offense to the term GG and 2 stated that GG was a derogatory term that the TG community throws around to demean women. I've never felt that way. Is this something that is becoming an issue ?

I know that over the past few years it seems that terms mean different things to different people. It's so easy to offend someone.

How is it possible to carry on a conversation if language is the real problem ?

Also I was called a 'fish' and a 'brick' . What does that even mean ?

[arbon]

Maybe just refer to them as women

[Jaylyn]

It's getting to where no matter what one posts it will offend someone somewhere. What would they say if you just wrote it out " Genetic Girl"? I sometimes can't keep up with all the terminology these days.

[PretzelGirl]

I have a gay friend that finds cisgender offensive. Terminology can be a funny thing.

I know one meaning of fish is a drag queen with a very feminine presentation.

I agree with Arbon. Using genetic probably feels like you are separating them. It is understandable in our environment here to delineate, but in the larger world, you may get a WTF for expanding the term used for women.

[ReineD]

It's because women don't enjoy being referred to as "girls". We're not little girls. (GG = genetic girl)

Men don't like being referred to as "boys"?

I agree with Arbon, just refer to them as women. Or if you want to refer specifically to people who have XX chromosomes, "natal female" or "genetic female".

Edit


How is it possible to carry on a conversation if language is the real problem ?

It requires having an awareness of how others feel they have been belittled or repressed, and being sensitive. Many (although not all) women have been objecting to being called "girls" for years now. This comes from having had to claw out of the stark gender inequality of the 1950s.

If you unknowingly say something that another person objects to, just apologize for having been unaware and refrain from using the term again.

[Hell on Heels]

I'm not sure about the GG thing, Arbon has a great suggestion though!
As far as being called a fish, and a brick...I had to look those two up on Urban Dictionary,
This is the only reference I could find that brick is being used related to a person...
An unintelligent person. Derived from "thick as a brick."
And being called a fish, you'll probably understand this one...
Much Love,
Kristyn

[Ressie]

Many (although not all) women have been objecting to being called "girls" for years now. This comes from having had to claw out of the stark gender inequality of the 1950s.

I remember women's libbers in the late '60s-early '70s being offended if they were called girls instead of women. They also didn't like being called ladies. I think these women would be happier if they would lighten up a little instead of holding on to some resentment from nearly 50 years ago.

We all know that they aren't girls anymore, but couldn't that be a term of endearment? Women I know call each other girl or girlfriend sometimes. Could it be these 2 women have some animosity toward CDs? Enough with all these new terms but maybe now we need a new term for CD haters.

[Tracii G]

I have to wonder when there is a whole gaggle of women in place one will say you go girl or come on girl/girls lets go (fill in the blank).
Its like the N word its OK if they use it just not us.
I'm pretty sick of all this "I'm so offended" BS and stupid attitudes I see in public.
If something offends you don't listen to it.Nobody is forcing you to listen to music that offends you or force you to read an offensive book.
I'm ready to go live off the grid somewhere so far up in the woods nobody would know I was there except the wildlife.

[ReineD]

We all know that they aren't girls anymore, but couldn't that be a term of endearment? Women I know call each other girl or girlfriend sometimes. Could it be these 2 women have some animosity toward CDs? Enough with all these new terms but maybe now we need a new term for CD haters.

It's OK if women refer to each other as "girls", like Tracii mentions. It's not OK if men do though, in some instances (at work, or among strangers). Just like the N word. It's not OK for white folks to use it but African Americans do use it among themselves.

This goes to show how powerful language is, and the extent to which it influences how we feel or think about something. Imagine the mindset of a white person who uses the N word regularly when referring to African Americans vs a white person who makes a point not to (out of respect). Although less serious, it's the same with men who refer to women as "girls" as opposed to "women". Using "girls" can be condescending even though the person who uses the term doesn't realize he condescends. I explained why in my prior post.

I know it's difficult to be sensitive to all of this, but we really do need to try if we're all going to get along and pull together. Here's an analogy. You're tickling a young child who tells you to stop. Do you believe that the child has had enough and respect him enough to stop, or do you continue because you think he should enjoy being tickled.

[Lorileah]

I don't see this thread ending well either.

Arbon has it right. refer to them as women. If you need to be more specific you can do that within the conversation (i.e. natal).

Kristyn, you're quote is wrong. It isn't a compliment, in fact it is very disparaging It is used in the gay community not as a compliment but as an insult and usually used to refer to women (I won't even discuss the origin, you figure it out and then stand back when you call a woman a "fish").

As mentioned anyone can take offense at anything. The whole concept of "owning" it bothers me too. If a group of women don't want the "girls" label, they shouldn't use it between themselves. One sees this in almost every marginalized group. It annoys the hell out of me...it confuses others. It is like telling a child "Don't say that word it's bad" and turning around and using it yourself. I learned that the hard way 35 years ago. If any of my friends calls me a "girl" or any derivative thereof I walk away. Probably why I don't play well within parts of the "community". The word "Brick" is a derogatory term for someone who wants to be part of the TG community but isn't accepted as such or by the lesbian community for someone who won't fit as female
.

Now that we have settled that...if this thread has any more legs I will be surprised

[pamela7]

fish refers to "fishwife", a derogatory term, and also refers to the smell of an unwashed vagina in those circles. it's not a nice term. Brick "as thick as" - stupid. They're not being nice to you in any way, sense or form.

people too-readily take offense, but then a lifetime of misogynistic abuse could lead understandably to taking offense. "the lady doth protest too much"

[Kate Simmons]

Best not to be concerned. Some folks will find offense in anything.:)

[abby054]

I lived in Madison, Wisconsin, for awhile, where I became familiar with the epithet "the perpetually offended". There is a difference between someone who is offended for a reason, good or otherwise, and someone who makes a lifestyle of being offended at seemingly nearly anything. It is yet another example of too much of a good thing. Sorting it out takes a little time.

I have lived in 13 states and two other countries for significant periods of time. I observed that the perpetually offended appear in greater numbers and get more publicity in Madison than anywhere else. I would not have it any other way.

[Claire Cook]

I know we use "GG" in the context of distinguishing genetic females from trans-women or CD's (I've done it too...), but I appreciate the points that Arbon and Reine have made. Maybe if we need to make the distinction ... use GF?

[sara66]

The only way any word can be offensive is if we allow it. People today need to get thicker skinned. They are just words.
Sara:2c:

[Mollyanne]

THIS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS GETTING OUT OF HAND!!!!! SOONER OR LATER SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET INSULTED OVER SOMETHING, SOMEONE OR EVERYTHING. WHY CAN'T WE JUST GO BACK TO BEING CIVIL TO EACH OTHER AND STOP THE LABELING.

Molly

[Lauri K]

Kelly you may want to scrub your friends list, sounds like they used some pretty ugly terms towards you.

You know the context of your discussions with them better than everyone here, but it was not nice what they said.

Which reminds, I have been off of FB now for going on 7 months and have not missed one minute of it. Sure simplified my life getting off of there.

[Tracii G]

I agree if they called you a fish and a brick tell them to FO then delete them because they aren't being nice to you.

[Cristy2]

THIS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS GETTING OUT OF HAND!!!!! SOONER OR LATER SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET INSULTED OVER SOMETHING, SOMEONE OR EVERYTHING. WHY CAN'T WE JUST GO BACK TO BEING CIVIL TO EACH OTHER AND STOP THE LABELING.

I agree with Molly. It has got to the point where you cannot do, think, or say anything, or even own something, without offending someone and having labels slapped on you.

[Amy Lynn3]

ReineD, do you think you should change your Avatar to list you as GF or NF, so someone does not make a mistake and refer to you as a "gg" ? By having "gg" on your Avatar it gives the impression it is okay for anyone to refer to women as "gg's"

Reine, you know I love you, but this splitting hairs seems so un-needed, as others have already said. :love:

[Alexa CD]

This stuff is the biggest headache, it's all absolute nonsense. What a can of worms.

[Ressie]

Some women of the non CD/TG persuasion took offense to the term GG and 2 stated that GG was a derogatory term that the TG community throws around to demean women.

I don't know who coined the term but I'm sure it was never meant to be derogatory or to demean women. I don't know of anyone of the TG community that would offend women intentionally.

Apparently I haven't been in the same circles that these 2 women have been in.

[Pat]

Some women of the non CD/TG persuasion took offense to the term GG and 2 stated that GG was a derogatory term that the TG community throws around to demean women.

It might be interesting to ask them what they understand the term to mean. I know some people internalize it as "girly-girl" which is pretty dismissive. As already pointed out, a term becomes offensive when someone takes offense. At that point politeness demands you stop using it until the issue can be straightened out or else communication ceases. Every party to a conversation has to agree to the meaning of words for them to be effective. (That's why we have endless 'labelling' threads here. People refuse to come to a common definition of terms.)

[arbon]

THIS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS GETTING OUT OF HAND!!!!! SOONER OR LATER SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET INSULTED OVER SOMETHING, SOMEONE OR EVERYTHING. WHY CAN'T WE JUST GO BACK TO BEING CIVIL TO EACH OTHER AND STOP THE LABELING.

Molly

What in the world are you talking about?


Using terms like "cis" or "GG" among transgender people or places like on this forum is one thing. But when you take those terms out there in the world and start using them people don't understand what they mean or why those terms are being applied to them. They are going to be defensive about it and think you are all nuts for doing it.

[Alexa CD]

What in the world are you talking about?


.

Exactly, this is what I'm thinking.

[Stephanie47]

I'll agree with Jennie to some extent. If someone is going to call you out for a choice of words, then ask them why they feel offended by whatever word is being used. Frankly, nearing the end of my seventh decade on this planet, I cannot keep up with a lot of the words or phrases thrown around. If someone wants to call me "one of the boys," which I have been called with some frequency it's OK with me. Voice inflection usually is a tip off as to whether "one of the boys" is said with love and affection or some condescending or demeaning manner. Then I'll just wiz by the choice of the word and get to the heart of the matter/disagreement. On any forum such as this there is no way to detect voice inflection.

The first time I encountered 'GG' was on this site. Until here 'GG' was an IND local train in the New York City subway system. Some people dwell on the word to the extent they do not get the message. Even the title of this site may be viewed as offensive if the voice inflection is such as to cast a dispersion upon me.

I do tell some political correctness folks that I can call a dog the most vile words in the English language and as long as the words are spoken in a pleasant manner, the dog will wag its tail and lick my face. However, if I call the dog all the nice lovely words in the English language in a stern screaming non approving way, the dog will cower in the corner.

I find political correctness people to be boring and usually very narrow minded.

[Dana44]

Actually GF means girl friend. So you cant use that. GG is accepted here and every woman that is here do not find it discouraging. But if you are on other site do not use the terms used here as GG stands for genetic woman here but nowhere else.

[Lorileah]

The only way any word can be offensive is if we allow it. People today need to get thicker skinned. They are just words.
Sara:2c:


THIS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS GETTING OUT OF HAND!!!!! SOONER OR LATER SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET INSULTED OVER SOMETHING, SOMEONE OR EVERYTHING. WHY CAN'T WE JUST GO BACK TO BEING CIVIL TO EACH OTHER AND STOP THE LABELING.

Molly

Spoken like someone with privilege. You have never been in a situation where words can and do hurt. People who think that PC isn't needed and should grow a thicker skin need to walk a mile in the shoes of those who ask NOT to be called something. Go back to being civil...um hmm Yeah, you mean where we called people disparaging things "out of love and respect". If that were true we wouldn't be having this conversation. Most of us grew up in a time where we didn't really CARE about other's feelings. Just a couple of days ago I was in a gift shop and they had a bow and arrow set, complete with a depiction of a Native American. Now honestly, I played cowboys and Indians growing up. It seemed harmless. Right? Until I met some Native Americans who pointed out the derogatory stereotypic things that it entailed. I could even expand that game to playing "Army" and the use of terms for what we have considered enemies before. I'm German ancestry, I dare you to call me some of the words that were used.

People just don't get it unless they have had it done to them. The word "girl" infers not adult, immature, not intelligent (wise). It is diminutive, it allows the speaker to talk down to someone. "Quit being such a girl...grow up" Now if you have this fetish to be a little girl, fine. Just don't force it on me or people around me. In the last 50 years we have worked to get everyone on an equal playing field. When someone feels inadequate themselves, they like to bring others to levels below them. So it says a lot to me when someone uses that kind of language. You may think you are being funny, or part of the crowd, but you are just even subconsciously inflating yourself, attempting to be in some sort of control.

But, I can't change people's minds on that in this type of forum. There will always be those who think it's cool or that it makes you part of the group because you OWN the insult. It also opens the door for others to see you as below them. So in a way you are perpetuating stereotypes for yourself.

(addendum seems the transsexuals, who have to live with being called names in real life and the females here who have lived with this for their whole lives get it more than the males :thinking: who seem to take offense to being called out on it)

[Cristy2]

The word "girl" infers not adult, immature, not intelligent (wise).

Makes perfectly good sense, but I honestly would have never have thought about it that way because where I grew up in Michigan and Ohio most women, even elderly women, would quite often refer to another woman or call each other girl or gal.

[Lana Mae]

I have only used GG once on a recent post but if this insults or hurts anyone I will not use it again!! Sorry.(Frown) Hugs Lana Mae

[sometimes_miss]

It's because women don't enjoy being referred to as "girls". We're not little girls. (GG = genetic girl)
and

It's OK if women refer to each other as "girls", like Tracii mentions. It's not OK if men do though,
and so we have the perfect example of a person who would fight the use of double standards, but accidentally winds up using one herself, discovered here:

ReineD, do you think you should change your Avatar to list you as GF or NF, so someone does not make a mistake and refer to you as a "gg" ? By having "gg" on your Avatar it gives the impression it is okay for anyone to refer to women as "gg's"
So what do we do? How are we to know when it's ok to use words? Is there a PC dictionary somewhere that has been voted in as the law of conversation? And if there is, who the heck decided their opinions mattered more than the rest of us?

I remember women's libbers in the late '60s-early '70s being offended if they were called girls instead of women. They also didn't like being called ladies. I think these women would be happier if they would lighten up a little
I've never heard the phrase 'lighten up' ever make anyone feel better, so like GG, it's OK here, but probably not good to ever say to one.


I have to wonder when there is a whole gaggle of women (inserted, a 'gaggle of women' is probably another thing we should never use in public, that's sure to 'ruffle some feathers'!) in place one will say you go girl or come on girl/girls lets go (fill in the blank). Its like the N word its OK if they use it just not us. I'm pretty sick of all this "I'm so offended" BS and stupid attitudes I see in public.
and

The whole concept of "owning" it bothers me too. If a group of women don't want the "girls" label, they shouldn't use it between themselves. One sees this in almost every marginalized group. It annoys the hell out of me...it confuses others. It is like telling a child "Don't say that word it's bad" and turning around and using it yourself.
This is what I can't get my head around. How do they NOT see that they are setting an example of how they feel people should behave? Or are they really so self-important that they believe that THEY can behave one way, while dictating that everyone else behave another?

Best not to be concerned. Some folks will find offense in anything.:)
We have to be concerned if we ever want them to accept what we do. We need to understand what it is that bothers them in order to address it.

I know we use "GG" in the context of distinguishing genetic females from trans-women or CD's
and

What in the world are you talking about? Using terms like "cis" or "GG" among transgender people or places like on this forum is one thing. But when you take those terms out there in the world and start using them people don't understand what they mean or why those terms are being applied to them.
I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women. At all. We're crossdressers, drag queens, transsexuals...but we're definitely not women to them, they see us as just men in dresses. They definitely feel that only they are WOMEN, that they are not just GG's, and they certainly don't like the idea of any man stating that 'but I think I feel like a woman, so I'm a woman too'.

What in the world are you talking about? Using terms like "cis" or "GG" among transgender people or places like on this forum is one thing. But when you take those terms out there in the world and start using them people don't understand what they mean or why those terms are being applied to them.
I think even when they understand it, they don't like it.


I have only used GG once on a recent post but if this insults or hurts anyone I will not use it again!! Sorry.(Frown) Hugs Lana Mae
So what do we use? 'Women who were born phenotypically female'? Holy crap that's a pain in the butt.

[PretzelGirl]

Spoken like someone with privilege. You have never been in a situation where words can and do hurt. People who think that PC isn't needed and should grow a thicker skin need to walk a mile in the shoes of those who ask NOT to be called something.

This a thousand times. Privilege is a big problem and results in many of the issues we see today. "I have mine so the world is good and I don't have to worry about others". What we should be doing is listening to others and understanding what they are saying instead of calling it political correctness. The minute you say PC, you have flagged that you are not listening to what the person is saying. You are marginalizing their opinion/experience.


So what do we do? How are we to know when it's ok to use words?

Well, you don't necessarily need to step gingerly with every step you take. But if someone is speaking up and saying something is problematic, do them the service of listening instead of disregarding them by saying statements like "troublemaker" and "They are just being politically correct".


And if there is, who the heck decided their opinions mattered more than the rest of us?

When did you decide that your opinion mattered more than someone's feelings? You can marginalize them and when they draw your attention to it, you can marginalize them some more?


I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women. At all. We're crossdressers, drag queens, transsexuals...but we're definitely not women to them, they see us as just men in dresses.

I don't know what nether regions you are pulling this from, but I talk with a lot of women that know I (a TS individual) am a woman. I didn't need to explain it to them. I didn't need to ask them. I was just me and they accepted me.

By definition, crossdressers are not women. Miriam Webster has this definition: "the act or practice of wearing clothes made for the opposite sex". If you are wearing clothes of the opposite sex, you obviously can't be the opposite sex. If you wear woman's clothes and say you are a woman, you need to pick another identity. You aren't a crossdresser.

Drag Queens are many different identities. I know DQs that are gay, transsexual, and some that are female identified at birth. DQs are a rather big "box".

[Zooey]

So, I've been on a self-imposed hiatus from posting in this little litter-box (or sand-pit, as I think Lori called it). That's going to resume right after this.


and so we have the perfect example of a person who would fight the use of double standards, but accidentally winds up using one herself, discovered here:

If you think that women being able to use a word amongst themselves but not wanting others to use it on them is inappropriate, then I could suggest a few choice words you should try out on a megaphone in Harlem. It should be totally fine... Screw people of color for taking ownership of something oppressive, right?


So what do we do? How are we to know when it's ok to use words? Is there a PC dictionary somewhere that has been voted in as the law of conversation? And if there is, who the heck decided their opinions mattered more than the rest of us?

Personally, I prefer FAB or "natal female" for women who were born female, and "women" for - wait for it - women (cis and trans). GG was always a bad term, IMO, though it was adopted here for whatever reason so whatevs. If you don't like my word choices, then my suggestion would be to ask yourself, "What would a respectful human say in this situation?" Then say that.

I said this recently, in another discussion (elsewhere). It feels appropriate here.


The best thing that could ever happen to (this) place is the FAB folks actually talking about all the things people do/say (here) that offend or annoy them.

Near as I can tell, many/most of the CDs here would vastly prefer to not have cold water poured on their fantasy. By and large, whether you believe it or not, the FAB and TS women here are rather compassionate, and tend to avoid doing just that. I'm sure things around here would be VERY interesting if we actually started pointing out all of the patronizing, incredibly misogynistic, or (frankly) just plain creepy stuff that gets said here every time we saw it.


I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women. At all. We're crossdressers, drag queens, transsexuals...but we're definitely not women to them, they see us as just men in dresses. They definitely feel that only they are WOMEN, that they are not just GG's, and they certainly don't like the idea of any man stating that 'but I think I feel like a woman, so I'm a woman too'.

Look... The vast majority of the women that I've met or know personally have absolutely no problem thinking of me as a woman. The vast majority of those have no problem with thinking of pretty much any woman (cis or trans) as a woman. Some of them have no problem with most of you (CDs) in concept; some of them do.

None of them think of you as women. Which is appropriate, primarily because you're not women.

So no - you don't get to call grown-ass women "girls". You don't get to make snide dismissive comments about how we don't look pretty enough anymore, or how "women are basically just men now; ugh" without getting called on it sometimes.

You can call each other girls, gurls, or whatever else you want (although given the average age here, I think it's creepy AF). You can list the make and model of your panties in the first paragraph of every post, and you can debate the tensile strength of 3 brands of pantyhose as observed through a damn electron microscope. I don't care. Just avoid doing this passive aggressive BS against the actual women in your world, lest you invite us to start actually contributing all of our thoughts on the things you say.

I've said far more than most, and if you think I've said all I have to say, you are very much mistaken.

[Amanda M]

Scenario - from yesterday. I'm sitting with a mixed group of men and women round a table at a restaurant. I had just bought a round of beers for the men. Now how do I wask what the females want. Now ladies, who wants what? OG, GGs who wants what ? or Right girls who wants what? Any ideas.

[PaulaQ]

The other really inappropriate aspect of GG is the first "G" - "genetic." It suggests that trans women aren't women because they don't have two X chromosomes, and therefore aren't real.

There are enough genetic variations that the idea of sex as a strict binary is a social construct, it isn't something that really exists neatly in nature.

[Valery L]

This fashion of politically correctness makes me sick.

[sometimes_miss]

I don't know what nether regions you are pulling this from, but I talk with a lot of women that know I (a TS individual) am a woman. I didn't need to explain it to them. I didn't need to ask them. I was just me and they accepted me.
and

Look... The vast majority of the women that I've met <snip>.
You know, I tried to make it as clear as possible that I wasn't referring to ALL WOMEN.
And Zooey, geez, can't you even read the very lines you quoted of me? "Many (but not ALL"
I put that in there specifically to address the fact that it doesn't include everyone. So why are you arguing with me about it?

Besides, we're referring to two different subsets of the population: You're speaking of the people that you have spoken with face to face and people you know; so they know who they're talking to. I'm speaking about those who don't know who they're talking to, so I get to hear what you PROBABLY do not, POSSIBLY because no one wants to offend you, doesn't want to get into an argument with you, or maybe simply does not care to get involved with you. I'm not out; I get to be a fly on the wall and HEAR WHAT YOU DO NOT. And what I hear usually isn't pretty. It's often prejudiced, bigoted, sometimes mean. But it's very real, and apparently way more widespread than you think it is. You don't think so? Just look at the fiasco of the bathroom bills, because there are apparently still a whole lot of people out there that have problems with anyone who doesn't fit their definition of 'normal', and they don't include any of us in that definition.

Zooey; You want them to be called FAB. A little odd, don't you think, seeing as FAB is generally considered short for fabulous, not 'female at birth'; so aren't they going to think asking to be referred to as that is just a little bit pretentious? And if they don't think it is, MOST others, will.

Natal female. Yeah, referring to someone as that, that's going to go over like a lead balloon, just like GG does.

And where do you get off saying that I "call grown-ass women "girls", or "make snide dismissive comments about how we don't look pretty enough anymore, or how "women are basically just men now"? You don't even know me! Stop reading stuff between the lines that isn't there. And no, I don't think it's any more correct that blacks can use the N word and then declare that it's suddenly incorrect for anyone else to use it; some of them even want Koreans to come up with other words to replace nega and niga, which are Korean words that have nothing to do with race at all.

If someone doesn't want a word used in a certain way, then they shouldn't use it that way either. We don't need any double standards.

[PretzelGirl]

I think this is the underlying problem. Many (but not ALL, cripes do I have to keep writing that to avoid those who will attack me with their exceptions) 'women who were born women' (gee, is this what it's come to? We have to use that whole phrase every time we want to distinguish who's who?) take offense that MTF TS want to be referred to as women, they take offense that crossdressers refer to each other as 'girl' or anything that is usually used to refer to a female, because to them, none of us are women.

Let me quote you again. "*Many* women." I don't care if you are a fly on the wall or if there are people arguing about bathrooms. That is just flat out projecting your own insecurities. I am out as out gets and even then, I am a woman to most that I know and the rest I am just not sure. I never get separated by the people I know because I am trans. And you can tell by their actions and how they treat you. You can't have a litmus test any stronger than that.

[NicoleScott]

In all my years on the forum, I can't recall this ever being an issue. I see GG as a quick 2-keystroke abbreviation. I can't believe that GG has ever been used here with the intention to be offensive. So why suddenly now? Jumping on the bandwagon, ya think?

[Sara Jessica]

Years ago I was called out my a mod in these pages for something about using the term girl and/or GG. Somehow, that context carried over into a conversation on another forum. Out of curiosity, I dug up some of those things I said on that forum so very long ago...


Originally Posted by Sara...
Funny you got heat for objecting to the term gg (forgive me, I actually use that one). _______ handed me my head over referring to myself as a "girl" when I framed a polite disagreement over the term "gurl". Hmmm, genetic girl is ok but someone who is trans describing themselves as being a girl is not???

Important to note that the original conversation had to do with what one calls oneself. It was then pointed out that some partners (SO's, allies, etc) "don't like being referred to as a girl, genetic or otherwise. Some do. It probably has to do with what connotation, if any, they attach to it," to which I replied...


And I can appreciate that pov. I don't even think "genetic girl" when I think about or use the term gg. For me, it's simply two letters to differentiate between genetic and tg, nothing more, nothing less.

But why would one defend the term gg, yet attack the use of the word "girl" as descriptive, even if used in the context of an adult, regardless of genetic or tg? For example, my wife is clearly an adult woman, yet she frequently uses the term "girls night out". Another one, I was emailing a tg friend and she brought up a computer issue and I replied "I'm an Apple girl myself". Seems to flow much better than saying "Apple woman".

But like you said, it is really all about context.

A few posts later, the moderator there later replied...

"on these boards, please lay off the use of "girl" when referring to any woman other than yourself. (you can call yourself whatever you'd like.)"

and...

"genetic anything" is (BS) anyway. no one here knows their karotype, so don't be so quick to assume you know your chromosomal code."

My point in digging up all this is that through understanding of how this seemingly innocent use of language had even a seemingly slight negative impact on others, I changed my behavior.


I stopped using the term GG. In writing, I replaced that term with natal female if I was making such a distinction.
I still hate the term gurl. Heck, I even bristle at the use of the term T-girl.
When reviewing my ancient writings leading up to finding these tidbits, I was struck by how much I used the term girl when referring to myself. I hope I don't that so much any longer.


Look at all of these tangents. Use of GG, referring to other women as girls, referring to ourselves as girls. The trans-lexicon. How many of these are terms of endearment? Does it all depend on the eye of the beholder? Isn't that what counts, how our words are perceived???

Fact of the matter is that we all make decisions as to how we present ourselves to the outside world. In spaces such as this, our words are often the only window to our hearts. Words, though, in such an environment are imperfect. In our mind we know exactly what we mean. We know context. We know what we're trying to convey when saying words which can be misconstrued by others, whether literally or in context. Sometimes making small changes in how we present our thoughts to others can go such a long way towards a mutual understanding.

In other words, it is about respect.

[CONSUELO]

Somehow what may start out as an innocent term gathers a fat baggage of meaning and can become insulting to some. Why did the term transvestite fall out of use to be replaced by cross dresser. They mean the exact same thing philologically but one is felt to be somehow demeaning while the other, at least for now, is felt to be OK.

Remember when Gov. Shwarzeneger ( apologies for misspelling) called some people "girly men". That struck me as being insulting to men who might seem less masculine to some but also to women as the use of the term "girly" was intended as a pejorative. That was apparent in the tone of voice that he used. The strong implication was that being very feminine was somehow weak or bad or perhaps a sign of moral cowardice.

Language is a subtle and also a very powerful thing. We should always be sensitive to the nuances.

[Badtranny]

Sheesh, I really hate posting over here, but I feel compelled to chime in with what I find offensive.

Since I'm apparently some kind of robot who doesn't truly understand the nuances of language, thus rarely EVER offended by words I will state very simply the only thing that really gets my meter running;

- People who decide that THEY will be the arbiters of expression, and demand that YOU will act as they do. -

I set my self free from being afraid and pretending to be something I'm not over six years ago and after fighting so hard to be free I have earned the right to lampoon convention and irritate the self imposed policy makers. To those on the Left as well as those on the Right, I'm not afraid to stand alone and give you each a middle finger.

Call me whatever you like. I've heard it all, and I have truly risen above it.

PS. There is no closet case who can say the same thing, ...so just don't.

[Zooey]

And where do you get off saying that I "call grown-ass women "girls", or "make snide dismissive comments about how we don't look pretty enough anymore, or how "women are basically just men now"? You don't even know me! Stop reading stuff between the lines that isn't there.

FWIW, I wasn't talking exclusively about you as an individual - it was the royal you (CDs). I don't have to read between the lines to find that stuff though. There's not much subtlety to most of it.

[PaulaQ]

The most correct term you could use in these discussions would be "cisgender" or "cis" women. Using a term like "natal women" doesn't really work either because trans women assert that we have always been women, but it took us all a varying amount of time to align our bodies with our minds. We didn't just "decide to be women" one day. That's impossible!

These may seem like "politically correct nonsense", "jumping on the band wagon", "being too sensitive about words", but if you say that, then you probably haven't lived with really getting beaten up about your gender just constantly. Yes, I realize many CDs go through hell, especially with their spouses, but you really can't understand how bad this is until you live fulltime.

Those of us who transition get told a lot of things pretty much constantly:
1. Genetics prove we aren't real women. "It's science"
2. We aren't real women because of our looks
3. We aren't real women because we were raised as men
4. We aren't real women because of our genitalia
.... The list goes on and on.

That may not sound so bad, but the follow up to those statements is ALWAYS:
-- "so you don't deserve rights"
-- "so I can treat you abusively"
-- "so I can deny you service, such as medical care"

Also wanting to be perceived as women is a defining characteristic of gender dysphoria.

So if we seem sensitive to subtle little things in language, it's because we've been beaten down by language for our entire lives.

[Lorileah]

Scenario - from yesterday. I'm sitting with a mixed group of men and women round a table at a restaurant. I had just bought a round of beers for the men. Now how do I wask what the females want. Now ladies, who wants what? OG, GGs who wants what ? or Right girls who wants what? Any ideas.

Here's a thought..."Hey Mary, what would you like? How about you Matilda?" If you don't know how they will react, try and not do it. But then that's just me

PS I think it's sexist to buy men beers just cuz they are men

[Amanda M]

Lorileah - I bought the men beers because they asked for them. After all I am a gentleman... or a lady.

[Roberta Lynn]

Sticks and stones
May break my bones
But names will never
Hurt me.

[Angie G]

I ticks me off how some people are take offense over the least things nowadays with all thats going on in this world that really needs fixing. Some people need to get a life. Sorry if I ''OFFENDED ANYONE'' Kelly don't get your pnsties in a twist over this.:hugs:
Angie

[Leslie Langford]

Sticks and stones
May break my bones
But names will never
Hurt me.

...said every teenager - and particularly the LGBT ones - who was ever cyber-bullied and committed suicide because they just couldn't take the abuse and shaming anymore...NOT!

[I Am Paula]

I would have to think that 99.99999% of the women born genetically female have never heard the term.

[Alexa CD]

Sticks and stones
May break my bones
But names will never
Hurt me.

Sadly it's becoming increasingly common to teach and encourage young people, children in particular into believing that words do hurt. Instead of the classic and sound "words will never hurt me" attitude, everything is fast becoming a politically correct safe zone full of people who are highly unstable and easily offended. It's ridiculous.

[~Joanne~]

It's not becoming alexa,

I object to the word "privilege" being brought into this as it is WAY over used these days. I don't think anyone here feels they are privileged save maybe a certain few.

[Alexa CD]

I have to agree Joanne, and I'm with you on the whole privilege thing too. Just thinking about these societal trends or whatever they should be called drains me.

[Badtranny]

I don't think anyone here feels they are privileged save maybe a certain few.

Well, include me in the 'certain few' because there is no question that I have experienced privilege as a white man and further privilege as a white woman in a society that seems to draw a hard line between trans women of color and the rest of us.

As a white man I progressed through the ranks of a construction career much quicker than I would have if I had been black. I know this because I left many black and hispanic friends behind in the field as I moved into management. Was I better than them? I'd like to think so, but I don't know that to be the case. There must have been non-white candidates that were at least equally as good right? In my current position there is ONE black Project Manager in a staff of about 30 of us. A few Asian, and about half women, but I don't expect to see a black female PM in my career here.

It's not blatant racism because we are an extremely liberal university with diversity street cred all over the world. It's a persistent and systemic racism that starts in school or in my case, the construction site where most of us got started. It ebbs and flows through generations, but it exists and there is no thinking person that would argue otherwise. The "white guilt" is useless, but we do need white people to recognize that the system is rigged in our favor. Like many things recognizing and acknowledging the problem is the first step towards a solution.

As a white man I was able to take advantage of career opportunities that eventually afforded me the resources necessary to fund my transition. It wasn't easy by any measure and it did almost cost me my career BUT my problems have been largely middle class problems. Fear of losing career, house, status, etc. I have to recognize that many of my sisters don't have those things to lose. The fear itself was couched in privilege because my fears weren't about going hungry, or living on the street. My fears were simply about being uncomfortable in a way that I was unaccustomed to being. That by itself is a rather privileged position to be in. A position that many of my sisters do not share, especially if they're not white.

We are all privileged in some way yes? Perhaps we should spend more time being grateful and less time being hateful. Or as my momma used to say, "count your blessings"

[Pat]

Instead of the classic and sound "words will never hurt me" attitude, everything is fast becoming a politically correct safe zone full of people who are highly unstable and easily offended. It's ridiculous.

So who did this horrible thing? Was it the kids? Of course not; kids don't have the power to set societal standards. It was the people who grew up when hateful and demeaning speech was encouraged. Do you think it was the people who were NOT targets of -- let's call it "mean speech" -- who changed the societal standards? Probably not. So it must have been the people who were or cared about the victims of mean speech who started changing things to stop it. So tell me again -- why is this a problem? People who were or felt harmed by this speech got together with others and have made their lives better by "forcing" people to think when they talk. Yes, we can't be reflexively intolerant now and go unchallenged and you're thinking that's a bad thing?

[~Joanne~]

We are all privileged in some way yes? Perhaps we should spend more time being grateful and less time being hateful. Or as my momma used to say, "count your blessings"

So let me make sure I have this right, because you inserted yourself more at the job, worked harder at the job, and had the ambition to move up in the ranks within the company, you are privileged? The color of your skin or sex helped out how?

[Lorileah]

and you can add me to those who "knew" privilege. It amazes me that you don't see that words DO hurt. And it confirms that many here live is a world where words aren't really denigrating them.

It didn't take me long to learn just how lucky I was. White, male, educated, physically healthy. Worst I was called referred to my German ancestry and that was well after the two world wars. During those conflicts my family gave up the trappings of the German past to try and avoid the remarks. Easy enough. White. However, there were others during taht time whose appearance couldn't blend. And where did they go? Relocation camps. Lack of privilege. But those who don't learn from history...

If you all had been anything but upper middle class and white and male, there would have been "words that will never harm you" except when you couldn't get a job, or get into a school, or move into a neighborhood...have a partner...adopt children. Words carry a lot of power. Using a word as simple as "girl" in a professional office setting implies less mature. The same with using any word that has "boy" in it. Stock boy, mail boy..all imply that you don't have the skill or education to be above. Yes, you can earn that. And you may not hate that label...until you are still a stock boy at 50 years old with less and less chance of rising (and thus one privilege goes away, youth...try and get a job as an older person, even if you have the other criteria).

Maybe your perspective is different because where you reside almost everyone looks and acts the same. But stop and think. If an ethnic person walks into someplace you are at, watch to see how the body language of those around you changes. Purses get moved to the opposite side. Backs get turned but the glances over the shoulder increase. You can deny that words don't hurt but try and live the life of someone who is tagged with those words. This thread was about the use of the word "Genetic girl" and in the context of these forums we do use that to clarify things. In the real world that can hurt. Why? Because first the person being spoken about will wonder why you have to be sure to say "genetic"? is there something they present that would in any way make anyone nearby think that they were not born female? And then to add the word "girl". They could be 60 years old, well past the girl stage (often in western society marked by puberty) but the word itself, outside a circle of peers, would be diminutive. Have you noticed how many men call their female partners "My girl" but women take an opposite view and refer to the male partner as "my MAN"? If she called her male partner "My boy" he would take offense (yeah, yeah, I know it wouldn't bother you guys because after all, words don't hurt...until the situation changes...like being intimate and suddenly you have to prove you aren't a boy but a man..)

We don't allow certain words in this forum because they DO hurt and their sole purpose is to hurt. They have no other function. I am so happy so many here have never been in a situation where words could wound your pride or your feelings. I knew that world. And unintentionally I used one of those words in a context I thought was academic. The hurt and the anger in the woman's eyes, who wasn't even part of the conversation, will never leave my mind. What I said wasn't meant to hurt anyone...and yet.

Deny privilege all you want...but it is becoming more and more obvious everyday.

[Zooey]

So let me make sure I have this right, because you inserted yourself more at the job, worked harder at the job, and had the ambition to move up in the ranks within the company, you are privileged? The color of your skin or sex helped out how?

Spoken like somebody with a lot of privilege.

Having spent time on the receiving end of a lot of preferential treatment and then experiencing the other side... It's real. Deal with it.

I know too many incredibly smart women who have been passed over without an even borderline-rational explanation, have been talked over incessantly in meetings, and who have had the credit for their ideas taken away from them by men who are so confident in how important they are to the process that they don't even realize they did it. It's like they just assume they must have come up with the best idea...

[NicoleScott]

Topic drift.
So, is the use of GG banned on the forum because it's offensive? If so, what replaces it? How many people claiming a term is offensive to them does it take before nobody's allowed to use any more? Does the most sensitive person set the standard for civil speech for all?

[Lorileah]

No Nicole, it is part of the language in this forum. The OP was saying the objection was outside the forum. When used in context here it is a defining word. How many does it take? In the real world, I would say one, if the specific word is used to somehow demean that one person.

[Leslie Langford]

So natal women may rightfully get offended by the term "gg" or "genetic girl" according to some of the posters here. Fair enough.

What about the TERF's ("Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists") then, who are adamant in their view that in no way is a M-T-F transsexual individual anywhere close to being on a par with a biological female (Hello, Germaine Greer - talking about you here, among others...) because they haven't "done the time", so to speak.

Do they get a free pass for their polarizing, hurtful point of view on this matter because they are women and feel disadvantaged due to an alleged lack of privilege?

[sometimes_miss]

and you can add me to those who "knew" privilege. <snip> Deny privilege all you want...but it is becoming more and more obvious everyday.
I've had perhaps the unique experience of having been on both ends as well. Growing up, I was a smaller kid; I had a big ugly birthmark on my face which made me an outcast, someone no one wanted anything to do with, I was seen as being diseased as if I was infectious or something. I saw repulsion in people's eyes whenever the hair that hung down and covered it would move away and suddenly they saw THIS THING on my face. So I spent my entire early life being looked at as less than a normal human. What I did know, later on, was that I was growing, and I knew that even if I had an ugly birthmark on my face, I was becoming large enough to inspire fear in other people, and I knew that I could use that to my advantage. I also learned that height and size gave a person a certain 'presence' among the rest, and I could use that to my advantage too. It didn't have to be fear, just being there had the effect. When I learned, too, how to speak in ways which inspired attention and confidence in others, it gradually turned my life around. Then, when I had my facial problem fixed, only then did I finally start to experience the privilege that everyone speaks of. And I was able to see how it worked; how people behaved and responded to the others around them, and importantly, how those in groups who traditionally felt that they were the victims of others' privilege, worked to manipulate their way around it. There are plenty of very successful women and racial minority individuals out there who have made it, in spite of what is perceived as white male privilege. Those who want to be as successful as them, would be wise to study them, and emulate what they learn, rather than just complain that they aren't being given what they think they deserve. Sure, the people who run the world have pre-conceived assumptions of what you are, based in initial appearances. It's up to the individual to make it clear of who and what they are, by presenting themselves properly instead of just wishing things would be different.


Have you noticed how many men call their female partners "My girl" but women take an opposite view and refer to the male partner as "my MAN"? If she called her male partner "My boy" he would take offense (yeah, yeah, I know it wouldn't bother you guys because after all, words don't hurt...until the situation changes...like being intimate and suddenly you have to prove you aren't a boy but a man..)
And yet, for some oddball reason that no one can explain, the terms girlfriend and boyfriend are used for all ages, and no one finds any offense to them. Anyone here able to explain that one? And how it relates to people continuing to use the words boy and girl in other ways? Hmmmm.

[Zooey]

What about the TERF's ("Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists") then... Do they get a free pass for their polarizing, hurtful point of view on this matter because they are women and feel disadvantaged due to an alleged lack of privilege?

No, they don't.

I've listened to their arguments, and I've talked with a number of them. I understand their reasoning, and some of them have had deeply hurtful experiences at the hands of men. I get that. I obviously disagree with the conclusions they've drawn, however, and I tell them so.

Like most any highly polarized group, there are a lot of people attached to that group who are far more moderate but were attracted to some aspect of the philosophy. When I talk about people generally willing to accept people like me, but not CDs/autogynephiles/fetishists, there are a lot of women on the moderate end of the TERF/gender-critical groups who are in that bucket (along with a lot of women on the "but I do have reservations" end of the more accepting side).

[TxKimberly]

When I first became involved in the community, "GG" was in common use and was pretty much the preferred term for referring to a Genetic Woman in the community as a way to make it clear that she was not trans herself. I've got to be honest, I had NO idea that it was now considered rude, but after seeing some of the replies, it does make sense. Gonna have to scratch that one off my list . . .

[arbon]

In the the transgender community but did anyone ask them?

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Kelly:hugs:, I stay as far away from facebook s I can...:daydreaming:...

[PretzelGirl]

Leslie, thank you for standing up for our youth. For those that aren't paying attention, we have a suicide attempt rate of 41% compared to 1.6% for the total population. if you don't think words are a big part of that, come forward and pay attention to what is happening more. It is an epidemic.

I will speak up on privilege too. I have white privilege. I have financial privilege. I no longer have male privilege. Maintaining those two carried me through my transition in a way that I can look at my fellow transexuals and see those who are people of color or under/unemployed and see the struggles they go through on their transition, showing mine was a cake walk in comparison. Generally, when someone poo-poos privilege, they are absolutely full of priviledge.

[Pat]

And yet, for some oddball reason that no one can explain, the terms girlfriend and boyfriend are used for all ages, and no one finds any offense to them. Anyone here able to explain that one? And how it relates to people continuing to use the words boy and girl in other ways? Hmmmm.

Going all word-nerd: my sense of it is that it's a bit self-deprecating. 'Way back in the early-to-mid-twentieth century there was a presumption that people would meet, mate and stay together for life. If one died there are a dim possibility they might remarry, but if a couple divorced they were immediately isolated from the herd (for fear divorce was catching) and were expected to live alone. As a result, the only real words for unmarried couples in a relationship reflected they expectation that they'd be youths -- boyfriend / girlfriend. Marriage conferred adulthood.

So along comes the 1960's and all of that goes splat. Divorce starts to become "normal" and people who are divorced are no longer ostracized and actually have another chance at happiness. But the only words for describing unmarried adult couples in a relationship were overtly sexual: lover, mistress, etc. Just as people started coopting "transgender" rather than saying "transsexual" (because of that horrifying s-e-x word in there) they were uncomfortable with lover because of the implied sexual connotation. "Manfriend" and "Womanfriend" made an attempt, but never caught on because, well, they're really, really awkward. I heard paramour make a run at being accepted but it also failed to take hold. So now you have people in their 60's talking about their boyfriends and girlfriends in a half-humorous way acknowledging that no better word has come along.

At least that's the etymology as I see it. ;)

[EffyJaspers]

some non-cd/tg community took offense to the term GG and also stated that GG was a derogatory term that the TG community throws around to demean women.... Is this something that is becoming an issue ?
How is it possible to carry on a conversation if language is the real problem ?

- I don't know and think people answered your fish and brick question.
- The term GG may need to be stated so people know what it means off the bat instead of getting pissed reading the comments trying to figure out what it means so just say 'GG (genertic Girl)' so people know the first time they read it what it means. Past that if you need to go off into a tiny tanget just let the other folks know why you simply use GG from your perspective and to TOLERATE it if not respect where it is coming from, at least for the duration of commenting on your post.
- And again to carry on the conversation just announce in parentheses ( ) what each term means the first time and somewhere in your original post or comment please ask for understanding/TOLERATION/respect for the term and why you use it. Now if you were going out of your way to call a woman a GG to spite her (cause she hates the term).... you're just being a jerk.

EDIT
Oh and just for fun, out-of-towners got pissed off at a waitress here because she referred to the couple (husband and wife) as guys. "How you guys doing tonight and can I start you off with some drinks"? Wife was super upset, but that is just the way we talk here, it is again the respect for how people talk.You have a CD-accented typing personality, okay!

[Marcelle]

Sadly it's becoming increasingly common to teach and encourage young people, children in particular into believing that words do hurt. Instead of the classic and sound "words will never hurt me" attitude, everything is fast becoming a politically correct safe zone full of people who are highly unstable and easily offended. It's ridiculous.

Oh I don't know . . . why not have parents teach their children to be respectful of others in the first place and not name call or be disparaging . . . not required in daily life. Before you go off on a tangent about kids being kids and they should just grow a thick skin . . . as others have said, tell that to the parent of the children who committed suicide because the name calling was so bad it was all they could do to make the pain go away.

Marcelle

[Alexa CD]

Marcelle name calling and disparaging comments among children is not something that anyone encourages, kids are not really taught to do this by parents. As far as I can see things have been set up in a way that actually teaches children to be respectful, rather than disrespectful.

However children need to learn how to take criticism and understand social dynamics, but also they need to learn how to be resilient and not allow what others think or say affect them negatively, hopefully they will develop strong characteristics of individuality and self worth on their own. These are important life skills and if one is to be successful and survive one needs to know how to stand up for themselves and of course others. Children need to eventually understand that other people think differently and have different opinions, and that the world isn't so idealistic that everyone has nice things to say and good intentions. People need thick skins, successful societies and successful people don't have thin skin, the thin skin comes along after the hard work is done and it can lead to downfall. Also kids will be kids, they'll learn bad words, they'll learn to lie, to notice differences among the people around them, they'll know shame and ridicule, they'll influence and be influenced.

I suppose you think telling people not to name call and bully will prevent suicide, perhaps we should tell people not to rape or commit violent crime.

[Lorileah]

-
- The term GG may need to be stated so people know what it means off the bat instead of getting pissed reading the comments trying to figure out what it means so just say 'GG (genertic Girl)' so people know the first time they read it what it means. Past that if you need to go off into a tiny tanget just let the other folks know why you simply use GG from your perspective and to TOLERATE it if not respect where it is coming from, at least for the duration of commenting on your post.! Oh wow. Just wow. So...let's assume you make a racist comment in a chat area. Someone calls you out on it. You say "Hey, it's my perspective...tolerate it." And that makes it ok since after all you explained your rude comment was your perspective and not really meant as hurtful.


kids are not really taught to do this by parents. uh huh like the father who uses certain words on a sports field to deride another player on a team, or a player who makes a mistake on their own kid's team. Nope parents don't teach it. It in born into children. NOT. Children are taught to say things and do things. And the first teachers are parents and siblings

[ReineD]

ReineD, do you think you should change your Avatar to list you as GF or NF, so someone does not make a mistake and refer to you as a "gg" ? By having "gg" on your Avatar it gives the impression it is okay for anyone to refer to women as "gg's"

As mentioned in my prior post, not every woman objects to being referred to as "GG" and this also depends on the circumstances where the term is used. I know that in this forum, it has been customary to use this term to refer to natal females. I personally would have preferred something else (i.e. "NF" for natal female), but I've no inclination to spend time and energy trying to convince all 4,000 other members to stop using "GG" in favor of "NF". lol :p So because "GG" is the term that everyone understands here, it is the term I use and I don't mind using it.

But in real life, I would think it in poor taste if I was in a business meeting with other women and a man walked in greeting us as "Hello girls". I feel this would be disrespectful. When I greet a group of women, I usually use the term "ladies", as in "Good afternoon, ladies". If greeting a group of men, I say "Good afternoon, gentlemen". When addressing a group of mixed genders, I say, "Hello, everyone". I don't object to someone beginning a speech with "Ladies and gentlemen". It would be odd to begin a speech with "Girls and gentlemen". lol

I do understand why some women on the internet would object to being referred to as "girls" if they do not know the person using the term, especially if these women are sensitive to feminist issues.




Reine, you know I love you, but this splitting hairs seems so un-needed, as others have already said. :love:

I'm not the one splitting hairs. The OP asked why some women object to "GG". I merely explained why.

But here's another thought for Kelly DeWinter:

If, in the forum you went to, there are both natal and trans women, and the natal females support transwomens' need to not be seen as different, they might have objected to being singled out as being apart or different than transwomen? The term "GG" does this. And so maybe the natal females on that forum would like you to use a term that applies to all women alike, and instead simply refer to everyone as "women", as Arbon suggested on the first page of this tread?

[Alexa CD]

Lorileah, this is what I meant by "are not really", generally children are not consciously taught to be abusive bullies or whatever, but they may learn and pick things up from other people, sure. No one, no normal adult at least, teaches a child to call other children names. Children are however born with the ability to recognise patterns and create concepts of what is and isn't normal, or different, no one teaches them these things, they simply absorb their surroundings. Children tend to pick on others who don't fit in or function within a group, they'll often pick on those that look, act, dress or sound different. No one really teaches a child these things, it's almost as if it is a primitive function or instinct, undesirable individuals for example are quickly identified and cast out of a group, or criticized until they conform.

[PaulaQ]

However children need to learn how to take criticism and understand social dynamics, but also they need to learn how to be resilient and not allow what others think or say affect them negatively, hopefully they will develop strong characteristics of individuality and self worth on their own. These are important life skills and if one is to be successful and survive one needs to know how to stand up for themselves and of course others.

It is ironic reading about learning to be resilient and not allowing what others think to or say to affect them negatively from a closeted person who avoids such consequences in terms of their gender variance. I hate to call anyone out, but this is a pretty classic example of "well it's not a problem for me, so why's it a problem for you?"

As for having a thick hide - I am, at this point, armor plated. I don't like the term "GG" for two simple reasons:
1. Technically it isn't very accurate. "Genetic Female" would be better, but genetics are only one of the things that makes someone male or female.
2. It's used here, all too often, to imply that transgender women are less than cisgender women, that we aren't real, that our experiences as women don't count. That angers me. Some examples:
- threads specifying "GG only replies", and then asking a question that could totally apply to a trans woman.
- threads making it clear many respondents would only date a GG, not a trans woman. It's the implication they'd only date "real women" that's the problem, that is, trans people aren't real.
- there is just this pervasive attitude of some here that GG's are the real deal, and trans women are a cheap substitute, that we are fake, that we are "less than."

I get all of this I can possibly stand in my everyday life, so it isn't pleasant reading it here.

3. 0As for why cisgender women might be offended, I believe for some of them, any designation other than "woman" is an affront, since they perceive themselves to be the "normal ones." That is, cis privilege.

[EffyJaspers]

Oh wow. Just wow. So...let's assume you make a racist comment in a chat area. Someone calls you out on it. You say "Hey, it's my perspective...tolerate it." And that makes it ok since after all you explained your rude comment was your perspective and not really meant as hurtful.
-First off, I guess I should have clarified that I wouldn't let intentional hate speech fly without swatting at it, and what could count as hate speech via ignorance I would correct their ignorance with facts supported by data if need be [and i have mutliple times gone out of my way to procure data for such things, so it's not a bluff].
-Second, there are different perspectives and hate speech. Not all perspectives are hate speech, but all hate speech are perspectives. Even if someone doesn't like the perspective does not put it in the hate speech section. I should have clarified that I would want people to tolerate a person's perspective, but not if it is ground in hate speech.
-Last?, rude comments come from perspective, but only some are again grounded in hate speech/prejudice/racism. I think.. my EDIT was edited because I talked about Mexico for example. If I am correct, I did not find that comment's assumption to be prejudice. It was a second straightforward example to reinforce that there can be two perspectives and how neither is superior to the other and understanding/toleration/respect are keys to a more diverse commenting section.
Edit
I just wanted to share someone, who I don't know (because its from a site that takes people's perspectives on subjects), who was raised racist and """"escaped""" (not really if you read to the end of the article) from it. http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-weird-things-you-learn-when-youre-raised-to-be-racist/

[Georgette_USA]

Paula
Glad you made those points. I have gotten to the point I hate getting into these terms/labels threads in on and off line talk. And to the idea that TG/TS are not real woman somehow. Have had some places the use of RG (Real Girl), as I guess TG/TS are Fake Girls.

The use of Genetic is also a wrong assumption. Few people have Genetic testing. It does not take into account Intersex genetics. There are XY Female at Birth or would they be Genetic Males.
Also I am not a girl, even though sometimes in casual conversation among other women friends we will say that.
Interesting the the official definitions/abbreviations we use GG (Genetic Girl) but GM for (Genetic Male), the list has added GF as either Girl Friend or Genetic Female.
We do have FAB (Female at Birth) but no MAB (Male at Birth).

Reine
It would not please many men to be called boys.

I will usually call casual groups as Gals (women) or Guys (men).

[Marcelle]

Marcelle name calling and disparaging comments among children is not something that anyone encourages, kids are not really taught to do this by parents. As far as I can see things have been set up in a way that actually teaches children to be respectful, rather than disrespectful.

However children need to learn how to take criticism and understand social dynamics, but also they need to learn how to be resilient and not allow what others think or say affect them negatively, hopefully they will develop strong characteristics of individuality and self worth on their own. These are important life skills and if one is to be successful and survive one needs to know how to stand up for themselves and of course others. Children need to eventually understand that other people think differently and have different opinions, and that the world isn't so idealistic that everyone has nice things to say and good intentions. People need thick skins, successful societies and successful people don't have thin skin, the thin skin comes along after the hard work is done and it can lead to downfall. Also kids will be kids, they'll learn bad words, they'll learn to lie, to notice differences among the people around them, they'll know shame and ridicule, they'll influence and be influenced.

I suppose you think telling people not to name call and bully will prevent suicide, perhaps we should tell people not to rape or commit violent crime.

Hmm . . . I agree in principle that some parents don’t encourage their kids to be intolerant about difference but to be respectful. However the cold reality of social learning theory is that children will learn intolerance through their role models in early childhood (i.e., parents and siblings). So if you believe that children are not being taught by their parents, that is naïve in thinking. Heck all you have to do is go to a hockey game and listen to parents goading their children on to hit so and so or stop being a wuss and get in their an fight like a man while denigrating other children for being weak players . . . nope parents aren't teaching their children intolerant behavior :facepalm:

You are correct in that children need to learn to take criticism and understand social dynamics but that does not equate to taking it on the chin when someone bullies them because they are different. That is not criticism but intolerance, hate and just plain mean spirited and should not be tolerated by anyone. Would you like someone coming to your workplace and making fun of you to the point where you are unable to continue working? Constructive criticism is something which needs to be understood and learned to accept but hate, name calling and bullying no. When did we become a society where people's bad behavior is to be tolerated less we upset their sensibilities or their perceived right to do what they wish at the expense of others?

Teaching children to have a strong sense of self is a good thing . . . again we agree. But a sense of self, being proud of your differences doesn’t mean letting people make fun of you without calling them out. So by your logic if I have a teen who is gay and proud of that fact and a group of homophobes are making her/his life at school a living nightmare my advice as a parent is . . . just suck it up and be proud of who you are even if it is causing you great emotional distress? Not likely. Fundamental respect of other’s differences should not be the exception but the rule. Before you go all “everybody has their right to their opinion” on me, having an opinion (I don’t like x because they are y) is one thing . . . acting on it and making disparaging, rude and hurtful remarks is another. That is not freedom of speech it is prejudice . . . plain and simple.

Some kids have thick skin and will take it in stride and others not so much. For those who don’t for whatever reason . . . yes the bullying, harassment and name call may be just enough to push them over the edge so while bullying and name calling may not be the only cause for suicide it definitely can be a contributing factor and that is proven by the statistics. Look you may be a thick skinned, had a great life, take it on the chin person but not everyone lives your life so just because things are great for you doesn't mean there aren't young adults out there suffering.

Marcelle

[Julie1123]

The thing about freedom and rights is that its all relative. Some people would rather they had the freedom to say whatever they wished without others speaking up when they are offended. Then they mock and ridicule when someone does speak up, which is often times more offensive language, as well as basically seeking to deny the other person the right to voice their opinions about being offended. The issue is also often compounded by the one who is offended asking "How can you say that?" to which too often the response is "We have freedom of speech in this country." or "It's just my opinion." Which while it does answer one interpretation of the question, isn't really what's being asked. The how in this case is asking what has brought you to have this viewpoint about others that you have. I will grant that its a poorly formed question and I'm guilty of using it many times myself. Freedom of speech in our constitution only protects us from the government and not society. So yes, people can say whatever they wish, and I would not want to impose censorship on them, but on the flip side of that, people need to understand that society will and should hold them accountable for what they say. Some people talk about returning this country to a mythical time when everything was better and people were good and decent to each other and people didn't get so offended over every little thing, maybe start with yourself, if you offend someone, sincerely apologize, and see where that goes. Seems like the decent thing to do.

[Alexa CD]

Paula Q,
I'm not just talking about gender orientation here and what I've chosen to do in regards to that doesn't make what I've said any less true... and where do I even begin with what you've written. First of all you are obviously making assumptions about me, you're basically saying I somehow lack problems because I'm not out?
I am conscious but if I cared, as I have done in the past, about what some people think or even say I wouldn't look or dress the way I do now. It's been a problem for me, and in many ways it still is but I refuse to allow it to personally affect me anymore. I also understand and accept that it's problematic for others, of course I do, I've been through my own hard times.

What you've put in "2." is actually the type of stuff I've been talking about here. Other people have different opinions and that angers you, different opinions being water, your armor being cardboard, just accept it, they think differently. Don't let other peoples opinions upset you, you can't allow what they think to define you, or make you feel less. If they want only genetic females to reply then so be it. If some prefer a relationship with a genetic female over a trans woman then that's their choice and they have every right to it, for whatever reason. Try not to overthink stuff and allow it to get to you, don't think about what you aren't but what you are.

Let cisgender people do and think whatever they like, referring to them as different and personally recognising so called privilege doesn't make it go away, just try to continue on. I think that's the true, narrow road to normalcy.

[Zooey]

Whoosh...

264034

Seriously, point missed.

[Alexa CD]

Zooey, is this directed at me...


And Marcelle, I'll reply later, I don't have time.

[Lorileah]

hard to not take something to heart when it actually effects how your life is lived.

"Water off a duck's back" is great until you hold that duck under for a long time. Being told you'll never be something when you know you are in almost every aspect tends to make you feel that you are less than you really are. Yeah, we get it.

I am noticing something here, I think many have also. The lines are starting to form.

[Zooey]

Zooey, is this directed at me...

Yes, it is.

[Alexa CD]

I thought about what to say back to you Zooey but why even bother.

I fundamentally agree with those that are for the most part somehow against what I'm saying. I feel like I'm being read wrong here, how else can I explain it. We're two sides of the same whole. There are no lines Lorileah it's a circle. You know I've talked to a lot of young trans people and crossdressers and I have actually been told numerous times to steer clear of the older people within this so called community and I think now I realise why.

[PretzelGirl]

"Water off a duck's back" is great until you hold that duck under for a long time.

Its more like waterboarding sometimes....

Alexa, I think a key thing you are missing from Zooey's posts is that we are woman. Anything that marginalizes that is important because it then defines how we will be discriminated against. We can't just ignore it. This is who we are and the cis world is a little too big to be ignored. So when someone draws a line between us and "real" women, it tried to tell us we are less than a woman. It is something we are trying to change by being out and visible, but it will take a while. In the meantime, we will endure the pain, whether we like it or not. We would rather change the thought processes now and it would be nice if others in the "umbrella" would get it and be part of the beginning of the change.

[Zooey]

I thought about what to say back to you Zooey but why even bother.

So, to clarify, I think you missed the point I believe Paula was trying to make.

I can assure you that neither she, nor I, nor Sue, nor a lot of other women here are walking around angry every day.

I won't speak for them, but what I am is frustrated. I'm frustrated by a number of things. I am frustrated about being marginalized, sometimes purposefully and sometimes unconsciously, by a group of people who at the same time insist that we are the same. I am frustrated by a group of men who claim some deeper insight into femininity and womanhood, yet balk at any suggestion by actual women that some of the things they're saying may be disrespectful or inappropriate in ways they aren't aware of. I am especially frustrated recently by men who like to play dress up as women posting things about how men are being "sidelined" in society now (aka male-rights activist BS).

Particular to your post, I also find it frustrating when people assume somebody should be able to deal with a class of problem, when they themselves have never really been confronted by that problem. It's like somebody who's never suffered depression telling a depressed person to "just cheer up and be happy". As Paula said, we deal with this marginalization every day, on one level or another (sometimes small, sometimes big). We get quite enough of it out there. For somebody who spends their life in the closet to tell us that we should "just ignore it" is, well, rather frustrating.

That is the point you missed.

Nobody is saying you don't have problems. We're saying that the ways in which you (and many others here) attempt to devalue our problems, often devaluing our identities in the process, is disrespectful.

[Nikki.]

So, to clarify, I think you missed the point I believe Paula was trying to make.

I can assure you that neither she, nor I, nor Sue, nor a lot of other women here are walking around angry every day.

I won't speak for them, but what I am is frustrated. I'm frustrated by a number of things. I am frustrated about being marginalized, sometimes purposefully and sometimes unconsciously, by a group of people who at the same time insist that we are the same. I am frustrated by a group of men who claim some deeper insight into femininity and womanhood, yet balk at any suggestion by actual women that some of the things they're saying may be disrespectful or inappropriate in ways they aren't aware of. I am especially frustrated recently by men who like to play dress up as women

[ brevity snip ]

Nobody is saying you don't have problems. We're saying that the ways in which you (and many others here) attempt to devalue our problems, often devaluing our identities in the process, is disrespectful.

the bolded part isn't demeaning or disrespectful....

[PaulaQ]

What you've put in "2." is actually the type of stuff I've been talking about here. Other people have different opinions and that angers you, different opinions being water, your armor being cardboard, just accept it, they think differently. Don't let other peoples opinions upset you, you can't allow what they think to define you, or make you feel less. If they want only genetic females to reply then so be it. If some prefer a relationship with a genetic female over a trans woman then that's their choice and they have every right to it, for whatever reason. Try not to overthink stuff and allow it to get to you, don't think about what you aren't but what you are.

Honey, I do accept it. And I'm telling you, saying "don't let other people's opinions upset you" is really damned easy when you DON'T have to face the kinds of consequences those of us who transition have to face. For example, if the person in question is a doctor whose opinion is that he should REFUSE to treat you because you are transgender, and you really need medical care, how does one let that roll off their back? Especially when you call about 30 local doctors, and had them all go "nope, don't do trans people." I've done this exercise before - I'm not sure what feelings I ought to have other than being upset.

Or hey, how about watching your friend get followed around various stores *constantly* by people who are taking her picture, posting it on Snap chat or Instagram "look at the funny lookin tranny!", and verbally harassing them?

Or - I know - I can surely ignore the guy that tried to rape me because I'm trans - hey, sticks and stones, right? Or the gang of men who tried to attack one of my friends?

Oooh, oooh - I know - how about any of my friends who had to deal with the opinion of their boss, which was, "oh, you're transgender - well, that really isn't going to work out well here. You're fired." I guess I should'a just told them "suck it up, buttercup", as they discovered that they were never going to work in their careers again.

I'm not saying you lack problems. I'm saying you have absolutely no right, NONE, to tell me how to react to mine because you have no idea what they are. You've never experienced things like the stuff I've listed have you? If you've had these experiences because you are transgender, then I apologize. If not, I'll expect one from you. Everyone has problems. And I can believe being closeted is a problem for you. I know what that can be like - I hated it. It's horrible. And if you really need to transition, it can be life threatening. So if you are going through that, PM me. That's another example, btw - contemplating or attempting suicide (I attempted it) because it seems like a better option than dealing with the opinions of others.

What I'm trying to convey to you is that I get a normal woman's ration of problems, plus a bunch of other ones that are unique to being trans. And hey - I'm one of the lucky ones.

Oh, I forgot to mention the opinion "you don't belong in this restroom." Always a fun one to try to get over.

So if I've made assumptions about you, feel free to correct me. Otherwise, I'm assuming you don't have the foggiest freaking clue what you are talking about, or, more likely, you know exactly what I'm talking about, it terrifies you, and you talk a tough game while whistling past the graveyard, as it were.

So have at it cowgirl, prove me wrong.


I think that's the true, narrow road to normalcy.

I'd rather drink poison than be "normal" like the people I've described.

PS. How about the opinion of the cop you called for help who decides that you are a sex worker, and arrests you instead. Or, heh, this one is really good - worrying about the opinion of the folks who run the psychiatric facility you are considering calling for your suicidal transgender friend. Are they going to make your friend better, or will they misgender your friends and otherwise abuse them so that they are WAY MORE SUICIDAL upon release. (Which you had to secure via threatening legal action - added bonus fun opinion to try to ignore!) I can go on and on and on about this stuff honey, it's happened to me, or people I know.

Don't even get me started on what people who are trans and on the autism spectrum go through. Or people who are trans and handicapped.