Does being real matter?

[becky77]

I know this is an internet forum and well we've seen it loads of times pretenders giving advice they know nothing about. But shouldn't we aim to maintain the truth?

I've always liked that this section has a core of experienced individuals who cut through some of the nonsense that doesn't belong when discussing full-time and being TS.

This section isn't about dressing it's about life changing actions, health and financial risks and tackling some of the hardest emotional choices you will ever make. In Transition it gets real very fast and ideals crumble quickly, we need those who tell the truth so all who follow can at least know they were warned and be supported.
Up-to them then if they choose to ignore the experience readily available.

Problem is that experience is disappearing fast and most of the time it's because of a lack of respect.
Who can blame a full-time member who's life outside this faceless forum is going well, will just not bother anymore when constantly faced with those with no experience speaking down to them often with authority.
Being dismissed or treated like we are arrogant is everyday normality coming here and if it wasn't for my friends I would also drift away.

We had an amazing thread recently it got heated but some of the content was genuinely insightful some of it was utter nonsense, but the nonsense was shown up for what it was and I felt that was important for all to see.

There has been a swift decline recently, I'm seeing the truth and experience fading away and what replaces it sometimes troubles me. Perhaps this section is no longer the straight talking school of skin thickening it used to be.

[Pink Person]

TS people are TS people, with or without hormones and surgery. Everyone is real. No one is more real than anyone else. Hormone therapy and surgery don’t change your core status but might make it easier for you to cope with it. If you want hormone therapy and surgery then you should pursue those desires in a rational and cautious manner.

My advice to TS people who are thinking about hormone therapy and surgery is don’t do it if you think it is a cure for being TS. It’s not. You will still be TS. If you can’t cope with your TS status then seek professional help to explore your options and coping strategies.

[becky77]

Real as in truthful to yourself, others and the magnitude of going full-time.

Who mentioned hormones and surgery??

Do you have any experience with being TS?

[Barbara Dugan]

Yes Real matters.... 5 minutes on the real world being truth to yourself give you a lot more insight and understanding than hours of irrelevant discussions that something pop up on the forum.
I truly miss the contribution of a lot of members that no longer post, I personally benefit from their contributions, but I understand that moving on is part of life.

[Phyliss Ann]

REAL
This is a subject that touches my insides. Through a long and sometimes difficult process and the assistance of many others in a fellowship I belong to, I've learned to understand real.
I had to fully understand that with transition I would still be me. Oh sure, I could have every sort of surgery and all the proper documentation to fully prove my status. Having spent a boatload of money to accomplish this, one thing would be unchanged and forever remain. Three letters .... DNA ...
I know my thoughts have upset some people before when I mention this. It's called REALITY. I had to come to terms with that thought before I began this journey. If (for me only) I hadn't resolved that issue in my head, I knew I'd have a problem.
Oh sure all the cute clothes and makeup are nice, but deep down we are us and no matter what we wear or how we present, we don't change the basics. Once I understood that, the rest was, I won't say easy, but the fear was gone and just that, made life simpler.

[Paula DAngelo]

Yes, I think being real does matter. In this section I think it is especially important. I'm early in the process of transitioning and I know that the truth and wisdom from those that have already experienced much of what one is going thru is invaluable, even when it isn't what you may want to hear.

It is sad to see the ones with experience drifting away, even more so when it seems that they are being driven away by those that don't know what they're talking about (and you can usually tell these people from their responses). I know that if I ask a question I hope that the people that answer actually know what they're talking about and not just fantasizing.

My feeling is if I don't have first hand knowledge about something I'm not about to give advice on it. I think things would be much better, especially in this section, if people responded to posts based on their experience (ie being real) rather than just based on what how they think things should be unless the post is asking for opinions. If more people did that I think we'd have less of the experience drifting away.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Phyliss
I have no idea what you are talking about..
Can you say this in a different way? details?

==========

Real means different things to different people

To me the most real part of it is fighting gender dysphoria...everything else boils down to details.... the details however are sometimes what really beats the GD....
and how i beat it and how you beat it can really be different things... i dont think that speaks to realness...beating GD is real

[becky77]

Kaitlyn what do you make of someone who doesn't appear to show any GD and yet transitions?
Why transition if you're at peace with yourself, makes no sense to me.
If I didn't have GD life would be way easier continuing to live as a man.

I guess if someone wants to express themselves with female attire all the time rather than to cure GD that's a whole other subject. Which is ok but that's not being TS as I understand it.

So as you say unless someone is talking about the emotional struggle of fighting Gender Dysphoria what are we talking about here?

[Phyliss Ann]

Phyliss
I have no idea what you are talking about..
Can you say this in a different way? details?
As a new person I'm trying to be polite and not say any thing that sounds like I'm calling anybody fake. To me REAL is being true to myself and others

[STACY B]

The only Dam reason we are here is because we all have this in common,, If there were a cure for this in another direction we would all take it,, We come here for support and with very little writing from those who are full of crap you can root them out quick,,lol,,,

Talk about being REAL,,, I wish there was some kind of operation to fix my Brain and make me want to live as a MAN,, Go in and fix whatever is broken,, It sure would be a Hell of alot BETTER than having to redo my whole Body and fix all the Damage that Testosterone and self medication has done to it over the years,, If someone could go in and turn that one little bitty switch off on the inside I would be sitting on my tailgate drinking Beer and talking a Bunch of BULL SWEATING AND CUSSING and acting a Dam fool my nightfall,, Now that is REAL,,LOL,,,

[jentay1367]

Short of a few people here who post stuff that may be better off in Cosmo or Seventeen, I have to say I really haven't noticed that anyone is here misrepresenting themselves. The former are easy to weed out and ignore if this is your desire and tha latter seems to be a non-issue. Since were so hell bent in keeping on point, I think it's ironic that this thread is apropos of nothing.

[tgirlamc]

Hi Becky,

I think there are a couple ways of looking at our lives... Either... the world before us is simply an insignificant little piece of a vast universe and we are little more than a meaningless growth upon it and we mean nothing to the "big picture" of whatever the universe is about...I think this view robs our lives of any meaning

Or...

We are put here because we do mean something... What we do here, what we learn here, how we treat one another here all matter in a very big way.... This more spiritual view is what I feel is true and I try to live with this in mind... So for me ... Yes! Being real matters...

I do feel in many ways that transitions hardships and joys are a somewhat spiritual path. You never know what part of a posting in a thread someone might find truly valuable in an unexpected way...

Take Care

Ashley :)

[PaulaQ]

On a philosophical note, it is of course possible that we are all simply "living" within a vast matrix like simulation. (No kidding, there are scientists that posit such an idea.) So its possible none of us are real.

As for being "real" here, in the sense becky77 asks, I think it matters, but it also depends on what you mean by "real."

So the first problem is the population here has very different experiences:
- CDs, some in the closet, some who'll ultimately transition, some who are out in public
- non-binary folks of various stripes.
- highly binary transsexuals.
- cis women

So there are forums for CDs, TSes, and cis women. The enby's have no place to go.

The forums are open (mostly), so we bounce very different visions of reality off one another. This causes some issues, especially for enby's who don't have their own place to discuss stuff.

But I think what becky77 is talking about are people with limited personal firsthand experience with binary transition talking about various opinions they have about it. Binary gender transition is really hard, and if one hasn't done it, offering advice about it is a dubious proposition at best. This is even more so with social transition - being out in your life as gender variant in some way. (This tends to be really brutal for transsexuals.)

Another measure of reality is how real we are with ourselves. What truths about ourselves do we embrace, which do we try to bury?

The lack of a forum for people who are questioning also contributes to this I think.

We come here with different expectations, so I think we sometimes talk by each other for all the reasons I list above.

[Megan G]

I think this is a great discussion as it hits on one of the most important aspects of the TS forum. When I first started poking my head in this section over 4 years ago I will be honest. It scared the crap out of me. Back there were lots of real, experienced women on here that had entered the belly of the beast and came out the other side. They knew what was ahead for those of us that we're just beginning to head down this road and were there to offer advise, support and guidance.

But they also made us earn our stripes if you will. When they seen a bad thought process or someone that was so intrenched in the fantasy end of it they were not afraid to call them out on it. New people took their licks and if they were truly TS they would see this as constructive criticism. They were also not afraid of calling out BS advise from members who had no business commenting on a thread since they had no REAL life experience in it. And to me that is what made this forum so valuable in the beginning. You knew you were going to get straight, no BS answers.

Now fast forward to today and yes that "old guard" has seemed to move on, yes there are still a couple of them left that still pop in from time to time but it's rare. Some of this is undoubtably because they have moved on in their life and no longer feel the need to be here. They no longer think of "trans" issues on a daily basis and are just out living life. I know that feeling very well as I can feel that pull already. For others they are most likely sick of giving out advise to only have the person ignore it. How many of the "new crop" of ts's have we seen like this lately.. Quite a few......

[Beth-Lock]

I'm real.

Authentic? That is a philosophical concept. Like most philosophy it is debatable on and on...

[PaulaQ]

Authentic? That is a philosophical concept. Like most philosophy it is debatable on and on...

Philosophical or no, I think its one of the things people want here. Posters who don't seem authentic - and that can include offering advice on things one has no experience with. Or someone who doesn't seem genuine, who hasn't learned who and what they really are.

[Nikki.]

The forums are open (mostly), so we bounce very different visions of reality off one another. This causes some issues, especially for enby's who don't have their own place to discuss stuff.

this is very insightful...

[Kate T]

Some of us are just sick and tired of the arguments.

Most people on here are so damn convinced they are right and anyone with a different opinion is wrong. Nobody seems to want to genuinely listen to each other, they just want to shout their point of view. We have all been guilty of it in the past, I know I have. It just doesn't seem to be any different month after month, year after year.

Honestly Becky I think a part of it is because very few people here really are real. We ALL present a selection of ourself on this forum. Perhaps that is as it should be. Perhaps not. But honestly, I genuinely don't care that much about most people here, very few have tried to understand and learn about me and in their defence I have struggled to be interested in learning about them. I don't know if it is about respect so much as about listening, all of us.

[becky77]

Lots of people have delusions and when questioned avoid answering questions that they have to be honest with themselves on, that's where it is real.
You don't have to be TS to transition and you don't have to have hormones or surgery all you need is to be authentic to who you are inside.

Where it all goes wrong is when Gender as in your identity and GD are not the cause, in this instance we recommend seeing a specialist therapist in Gender someone who is trained to recognise if the cause is a misalignment in Gender or something else altogether.

Experience is vital to recognise these signs otherwise you get advise like this:

"i guess most people are so confused and easily influenced that they need a specialist therapist. I don't hold with the idea, personally, I worked it out for myself. The specialist may be useful in knowing the pathways, chems etc, but it does not mean they have the best process for self-discovery."

Some Trans people come here borderline suicidal, to read that and feel dismissed as 'easily influenced' is dangerous and foolish. We all self diagnose to an extent but then see a specialist who makes sure it's not delusion or a Co-morbidity issue. That process is vital to ensure we are on the right path and don't do something we will deeply regret, to say a gender specialist is only a gatekeeper for accessing hormones is incredibly bad advise and shows a lack of research and understanding for the purpose of the process.

You should only take note of those who have been there and done it and know the reality and that's why we need to try keep that experience here, protecting the vulnerable from the false advise.

[Marcelle]

Hi Becky,

What is real? I look in the mirror each day and I like the person I see . . . she is real. Not long ago it was not the same. I loathed the person I saw in the mirror, hated him, wished him to be gone from existence. What has changed? Outwardly . . . nothing. I see the same person when I look in the mirror. Oh, the hair is longer, the beard is thinner, there is less body mass but it is the same visage. The difference is inward. When I was him, I was angry, bitter, miserable and all that hostility though directed to myself was forced outward to those around me. The military with the world being the way it is today, provides someone with a lot of cathartic release for all that hostility and anger so suffice to say, I used every avenue to expel that anger. But it was not sufficient, dressing up was not sufficient, talking to my therapist provided guidance but it was not sufficient . . . I hated me, not the outward appearance but the internal me, the person.

It wasn't until I dug deep to examine who I was that I realized that the person I had become was a façade, a shade . . . some abstract changeling which had replaced the real me. When that occurred, I don't know and perhaps I never will. I suspect, it occurred when I was very young in an effort to live up to what people expected of me. All I knew is that when things started going very dark . . . he needed to go. It was not easy as I found it hard to disentangle where the person begins and the gender ends. Specifically, did the person define the gender or was the gender defining the person. When I started reading this side of the forum, my take away (and I could be wrong . . . remember this is the messaging I understood), it is not about doing things which stereotypically define someone as a woman (hobbies, dressing, likes, desires), it is about being the person you were meant to be. I wasn't becoming a woman, I always was a woman . . . the growth . . . was becoming the person who was supplanted by that changeling long ago. That messaging (even if I misinterpreted what others were saying) saved my life.

Once I understood that it is not about becoming a woman it is about being a real/authentic person, the anger dissipated, the hostility subsided and the self loathing went into a lull. Do I still have bad days? You bet. Is everything five by five? Absolutely not and some days I can feel that anger, hate and loathing . . . still a work in progress. However, the person I am now is fundamentally different from the person I was. She is who I was meant to be . . . the real me and that gives me hope that one day, I will be able to just live my life in relatively peace. So yes, for me being real definitely matters.

Cheers

Marcelle

[becky77]

Thanks Marcelle that's exactly what I'm getting at, it's a wonderful thing for someone to open up and share those feelings even if it is raw at times.
Transitioning for me is about listening to your inner feelings and coming here and talking openly and sharing common emotional journeys makes us feel we're not alone.
Cis people don't get why we do this so I know I did feel isolated at times, that's my sole reason for being here to speak to those who understand what I'm going/gone through.


Marcelle I admire you a lot.

In fact it was your sage advise which quickly followed the poor advise I quoted before, proving how important it is to have quality experience available and willing to share.

"you left out the fact that you are a therapist of sorts so you would be able to be a bit more introspective. I agree there is no rush to seek out a gender identity therapist if you are just questioning/toying with the idea. But if you are truly in a chaotic state of mind (BTDT got the t-shirt) a good therapist can help bring order to chaos and guide you down the path. Just because a person thinks they are TS does not mean they are and if you don't have the ability to be introspective . . . well just saying . . . you could make some life altering decisions which might not have been the appropriate choice."


The difference for me in the two quotes, one is purely egotistical with no empathy the other is heartfelt and in the best interest of anyone with GD.

[Jennifer-GWN]

I met a number of folks who are transitioning or have transitioned... There are 2 kinds (beyond the cd, queer, and fluid space)...

Those that are determined to be women and subsequently go on a mission to become... These fight the process, roadblocks, the challenges, and ups and downs.

Those that are women at the core and emerge... As they were meant to be.

The fundamental difference is as Marcelle points out serious introspection while knowing deep down what is right and needed to be at peace. Transitioning is more mental then mechanical although the mechanical aspects generally overshadow much and we all to often put a prerequisite on the hormonal aspects as necessary. Hormones are part of the mechanical aspect in my mind... A means to certian desired aspects but they did not transition me... I was already there.

If I recall correctly way back before the days of informed consent you were required to do 1 year rle Before Hormones were perscribed... There's a lot to be said for this in ensuring you are mentally prepared.

[PaulaQ]

We all self diagnose to an extent but then see a specialist who makes sure it's not delusion or a Co-morbidity issue. That process is vital to ensure we are on the right path and don't do something we will deeply regret, to say a gender specialist is only a gatekeeper for accessing hormones is incredibly bad advise and shows a lack of research and understanding for the purpose of the process.

No, I strongly disagree. I come from a nation where there is a history of reparative therapy, where you may find the therapist you seek out wants to "cure you" using unethical and dangerous methods. Even if you don't get one of those, odds are, here in the states, any random therapist isn't going to understand trans issues. Your medical doctor will have received ZERO training on trans people, and if you are lucky enough to have insurance, and luckier still for them to support trans medical care, you will discover they have ZERO ability to direct you to an affirming gender therapist. When you try to find care for yourself, you can often expect providers to outright refuse to treat you.

I don't know how many trans people you know, but I know *a lot* and I'm going to tell you that I've met exactly one person who I thought had a comorbidity that made me unwilling to help them transition. I've met schizophrenics, schizoaffective, bipolar, more autistic people than I realized even existed before transition, and all of them knew who they were. Mostly what I've seen here in the states is transphobia on the part of providers use "comorbidities" as an excuse to withhold treatment or even take away freedom from an individual. BTW, the one person I refused to help probably IS trans, but with multiple personalities, 6/10 were women, possible schizophrenia, and a tendency towards violence, I'm not sure anyone out there could really help them either. (I wouldn't help them because of the tendency towards violence, btw, although their multiple personalities gave me pause.)

Even in the UK, the supply of providers and the need to pass gates means many of us are under treated or face long delays getting treatment.

So no, I have very, very little good to say about mental health providers for trans people.

I'm not discounting seeing a good therapist during transition. I think this is incredibly helpful. Unfortunately, at least here in the US, only the highly privileged will ever get such an opportunity for therapy like that.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

paula what you are talking about is privilege..

there is no argument that its better to avoid therapy....none...

if you want to say there are more desperate people than good therapists, I can buy that...but thats a totally different idea

if you want to say there is no guarantee of your therapist being good, i can buy that too but i'd strongly challenge that it matters because the quality of advice, care and quality of advice is going to be all over the place...its no different than anything in life...

Jenn
There are two types of people in this world, the type that thinks there are two types of people and the people that don't...!!

i was determined NOT to be a woman!!! LOL... i guess that would be the 2nd type in the end but you 'd have to add "kicking and screaming all the way"...

[Pink Person]

I’m qualified to be here. You can vote against me, but your vote doesn’t count. I don’t want to get into a pissing match with the experts on everything. I think anyone who posts here should be welcome. The persistent lack of charity astounds me.

Lest we forget, transmale and transfemale people are both TS types that can each have one of two different biases or orientations. Being TS is a two-way street with many traffic stops. Some of you love to reduce anyone who doesn’t agree with you or behave like you to fraud status. The irony is so rich and painfully sad. Solicit an opinion about yourself from a random sample of cisgender people to remind yourself of it.

[PaulaQ]

@Kaitlyn - I have undergone a lot of therapy. I am wealthy and privileged. The system (kind of) worked for me. It fails many of us, and indeed, our mental healthcare system is really designed in large part to incarcerate people. This is hard to believe until you've seen it.

It is PROFOUNDLY different than what other people face. There is NO medical school in the US that trains doctors in trans medicine as part of their routine medical care. Therapists barely get training now in gay and lesbian people.

Hey look - I don't think it's a good thing that when faced with a suicidal trans person, you have to worry if calling 911 is going to make matters better or worse. I've seen it go both ways.

Getting a note for HRT from a therapist who knows you is a good idea - until you see it keep large numbers of us from getting treatment they badly need because they can't afford to see a therapist - assuming they know where to even find one! This isn't theoretical - I spend much of my spare time helping desperate trans people who can't get hormones because they can't afford a therapist. This isn't theoretical - I answer our phone line all the time and talk to these people.

Anyway, the model is moving away from gatekeeping, in part because of the realities I mention.

I mean no disrespect by any of this - it's just the hard reality I deal with all too often.

[Dana44]

Pink, Thank you. How does the natural look turn into being real? I am real as hell. Gender fluid is a curse and special in a way that no one else in the world realizes. Now on natural look and what this thread is about. People look at me a bit confused as When I am boy, I look pretty feminine. But as a woman they feel more comfortable and less confused. Yep that is what I live through. And Stacey had the answer. Dang it if somebody could have fixed it we would be sitting on that tailgate drinking beer and having a great time. Yet we walk though this world confusing people in a strange way. Is he a boy or a girl? I am TS a and likely a couple red-lights behind you all who are being so confusing your self that you deny our existence. Go figure.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Paula I hear you. I just think it's a different conversation. Poverty and mental illness plague lots of people not just transsexuals

What makes ts and poverty so nasty is that the world still disbelieves us.
So resources can be hard to come by

One reason I try to talk to med and phys assistant students it to highlight this
A little bit of compassion and understanding from a PA or even a clinic nurse can change a life.


Pink you say the irony is lost on us.
It most certainly is not.

Love your style but I am not buying
What you see as judgement is people trying to communicate honestly.
And since we all experienced that the cd/Tg and ts communities are rife with bullcrap. Lying and hiding are super prevalent. It comes with the territory.

Gender matters. It is the fundamental organizing principle of human society. We naturally gender others without thought.

People that fight for their gender identity will have a strong view. People that survived life threatening situations or trauma can be changed. My glasses went from black to rose to grey over the years as the chips fell for me.

That's why I focus on honesty and experience. That's why I like real way more than theory

[Marcelle]

Dana,

I don't think "the external" (natural look) was the idea the OP was going for. When I read it, I took it to mean "interior" real to yourself and introspective. Yes the outward/exterior/presentation whatever will factor into transition and each person will find their own comfort zone when it comes to how they look to the outside world and what makes them feel comfortable. Becky IMHO (and she can correct me if I am wrong) was talking about being real both with yourself and those you interact with which can be a hard road to travel. I have read Becky's OP and her replies and not once did she mention "natural look" or deny anyone's existence.

Cheers

Marcelle

[Georgette_USA]

I have waited to put my limited knowledge/experience in here. My path was so different to any of the people that I have found on-line and in real life, that I don't recommend it but am willing to support all and tell them my tales of the DARK AGES of all this.

I am new to this website, and my reason for being here was to learn more of what is currently going on, and to find a TS that transitioned in the 70-80s. In 2 years I found 1 local from 1979, and one in my travels from 1983, and their experiences are not too dis-similar from mine. There are either very few still around or have just settled in to their life as just another woman. IF ANYONE KNOWS SOMEONE FROM THAT ERA, I WOULD LOVE TO CHAT WITH THEM.

Never heard of this idea of being REAL any where else before, interesting look on things. Talking with others I was probably more a Gender Non-Conforming person when young and pushed it as much as possible in a corporate world. But I wanted it to be from my female side, had no use for the male side. Ended up after HRT/SRS that side of me went away, and I just worked and grew old as most other women, and not just as a Trans Woman.

Locally we have some clinics that specialize in a variety of Gender and sexual issues. I recommend all to avail themselves of Therapy and all the medical help they can get there.

As for my living the REAL me, at my age I worry more about aging as a Trans person, have not heard of many studies on long term living (already starting my 40th year) as a Post TS, I am just hoping to live another 30 years as myself.

[PretzelGirl]

Pink, your own posts highlight why you might be having a problem here. TS is transsexual which is going from one binary to another, which by definition means no stops. TG has been used in two forms, one as an umbrella and one as a replacement for TS. So this means two things. One is clarity in communication so we know the usage, and two, which others have been trying to say and have been misinterpreted, if it isn't your experience, don't talk like you are an expert. If you haven't transitioned, don't talk about how to do it cause you don't know. If you are wrong, someone's life is on the line.

Dana, same point. If you are non-binary, you are not TS. I support who you are, but let's not misidentify it or we swirl in our own language.

From Mirriam-Webster: a person who strongly identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs)

Quick edit: I should have used the forum's definition since this where we are talking.

Transsexual (TS) - An individual who is changing their assigned birth gender permanently to that of the opposite.

Obviously, opposite has no stops either.

[arbon]

Some are women

Wanting to help others get through some issues in their lives so they can be free as women


It is not about wanting to be Ts. Or transgender. Or Being gender fluid. Or Having a girl side and a boy side. Not about panties or how carrying a purse helps you walk more like a woman. Not about wizards.

If your a woman, and you are suffering be who you are, then transition. Let yourself out. That is being real. The rest is all whatever.

[Pink Person]

I wish TS people would be honest about being TS people. If you are TS then hormone therapy and surgery didn’t make you start being that way or make you stop being that way.

I think TS people suffer a lot, too much really. I don’t begrudge anyone who does what they believe is necessary to cope with being TS. It’s all good if it works. However, if your coping strategy involves denying your TS status or idealizing your TS status then your commitment to honesty has left the building with Elvis.

[GBJoker]

I've no reason to be "real" to those I don't trust.

[whowhatwhen]

As much as I argued and disagreed with some of the old posters, they knew their stuff and it's partially because of their honesty and willingness to post their experiences (good and bad) that I am where I am today.

So I guess in a sense, their being real did matter to me anyway.

[PretzelGirl]

And the non-TS individuals want to keep telling us how to be TS.

Tara, you are really living it real. This is what working through life on this site means to us. It has been tough and you keep treading the path.

Joker, I am confused on why you are here. Honestly, not trying to pull a chain. Are you consuming information and not wanting to share? It seems your comment above has been your general approach, so without sharing, we cannot have discussion. So are you just looking at the comments and deriving your own thoughts?

[Marcelle]

Pink Person,

This doesn't even make sense. What do you mean denying our TS status or idealizing it? Where on earth did you ever come up with that? . . . An example might be nice. Look you are throwing out a lot of analogies and cute quips (e.g., Elvis has left the building) but you are saying nothing. If you have a point to make . . . make it without all the hyperbole.

M

[PaulaQ]

@PinkPerson. I spent part of the week before last traveling to my company's corporate headquarters, to help educate our HR department about trans people. I helped write the corporate policies there about trans people during my transition. It's a little company, 9000 people or so, named NVIDIA that you may or may not have heard of. I spent part of my time advocating for the rights of non-binary trans people, and plan to meet with HR and legal, to insure non binary (enby) folks are treated with respect, have access to affirming medical care should they need that, and otherwise have a good experience on the job here. I have spent a good amount of my time doing advocacy doing it in ways that I believe are affirming and supportive of all trans people. I point this out not because I seek praise or something, but simply to give you some perspective on me. Although I'm binary, I support strongly enby trans people.

So having said that, I found your last post to be really mean, really infuriating, and pretty insulting. I fit your definition of real, I think. If you doubt this, look me up on Facebook, and read my wall. I'm paula.minnie.ellis.

I 1000% support my brothers and sisters who simply want to live their lives without being some kind of trans activist, who just want to fit in, live their lives, and be invisible. They deserve a life of simple dignity, and for you to imply that their trying to assimilate into cis culture is dishonest somehow is just outrageous. How does your judgment make YOU any different than cis people who deny the rights of trans people to exist at all? I'll answer my own rhetorical question - IT DOESN'T!

I also find your denigration of medical transition to be shocking, short sighted, and also pretty hateful. I know a LOT of trans people. I don't know you, but I'm willing to bet I've SLEPT with more trans people than you know. I know many enby's who do need some type of medical transitional care to align their bodies with their minds. Sure, their goals are far different from mine medically, but they are real, they are valid, and I think it is incredibly short sighted to put down medical transition simply because you don't need it currently. You may find that one day, you do. You do all of us, binary & enby, a great disservice making statements like that.

This forum is really designated and designed for binary trans women. Yes, the forum mods may view it differently because their is some language about including FTMs in the description of the forum, but there are very, very few FTMs on this site, and there never will be because of a lot of reasons. Enby folks have no real place to discuss their unique issues on cd.com. I think trying to discuss such things is possible between binary and non-binary folks, but not with the way this place is set up, and not with all the water that has gone under the bridge here on this forum. I regret that, but the solution isn't to take it out on us, but rather to constructively engage the admins and mods here.

I wish you'd done that, instead of aiming criticism at trans women here. We all face enough haters without turning on each other. I realize that some binary people aren't going to understand you, and may say things or express attitudes that seem hostile. Look, it's hard for people who's definition of "I've completely transitioned" is often highly triggering to one another to discuss some topics at all. You'll note I routinely criticize folks on the TS side of the aisle for such things.

I think your comments are just plain mean, and not constructive. Yeah people here sometimes say things you aren't going to like. Look, their end goal is very different from yours, so their advice tends to be focused on people who are TS. I'm sorry their isn't an enby forum here, but seriously, how DARE you insult fellow trans people who are going through so much? Seriously, how dare you?

[Mayo]

I see a lot of thinly-veiled hostility on this site between different groups of people who all fall under the 'TS umbrella' but whose motivations, experiences and end goals are vastly different - all of which are equally 'real' to the people dealing with them, in one way or another. This causes two problems, as I see it: the first is when one type insists on telling the other type that they are less 'real' (a pissing match or a variant of 'oppression Olympics'), the second is when one type insists on generalizing from their own experience to that of another and falsely equating the two (which shows a lack of understanding of, and appreciation for, the different issues faced by different groups and is the TG equivalent of mansplaining).

TSs, CDs, NBs, and genderqueer folks all have different concerns and one should neither deny the reality of the others nor preach to them. As someone who is currently identifying as non-binary and with little or no dysphoria, I have my own concerns, but I have no business whatsoever (for example) telling a MTF that they're making a big deal out of GD or telling a CD that they're shallow for wanting wig and nail tips. From an objective point of view, I think MTFs experience the greatest number and severity of issues, so I can look to them as sort of the 'ultimate benchmark' of the sorts of struggles I might have to face, but that doesn't mean that my concerns (or those of other TG subgroups) are somehow 'less valid' or 'less real'.

My goal here is to find those whose experiences match mine and to mutually support and encourage each other, but also to listen to and understand the struggles others face and to support them in theirs as well without judging their worth as people simply because their challenges are not the same as mine. There may be things on this forum that don't concern me at this point in my life, but I have no right to denigrate them as 'invalid'. If I ever do need to know about those things, I now know where to find the people who have been through them and can give me the benefit of their experience.

[Secret Drawer]

Making a long story short, I left this site a while back, only now checking in to see how some of the members are doing. I found what Mayo (post#39) talked about to be the big reason for my leaving. This is not a support site in my mind. It can be downright hostile, just like (if not worse!) then the real world. I don't need to be told I am or am not real. I am right here, right now, and don't have a drop of drugs or alchohol to warp my thoughts.
I am transgendered. Whether anyone understands, cares, or believes me or not. I don't always deal well with dysphoria, and if not for my two daughters, who I will lay down my life for, I would have maybe pulled the plug by now.
PaulaQ gets it. There is no place here on CD.com for transgendered people. It seems that most of the site is cis-gendered. If you are TS, then you are binary. (It has its own huge and painful issues being in the wrong gendered body!! But... none the less, you are actually binary) If you are a GG or GM, or a CD that denies any transgendered or GD issues, then you are a cis-gendered binary. Very few people understand the repression and denial of self that we go through as non-binaries.
So "real" is sort of a bad joke because of the issues that come up. If I don't rush out to a surgeon, then I have been told (by some TS's here) that I am not "real." Not sure what that means actually? Am I a piece of fiction? Have they swam around in my soul and know I don't "really" have GD? (Must just be some crazy mixture of anxiety disorders and childhood repressed memories! ) Being believed is exceedingly difficult. Even coming out to those who I most love didn't go well, as they think its some midlife crisis or something (Must be a Long crisis, been the same since as long as I can remember) So real... I don't have the emotional energy to care if people think I am real or not. I have nothing to prove...
So there it is... I don't have the emotional energy to care anymore what others think...

[Marcelle]

Folks ... read the darn OP.

It was not about the external aspect of transition but the internal . . . understanding the person beneath and how that relates to being TS. As a side point, nobody was talking about CD, TG, NBs not being real or less than . . . some of non TS folks took this thread down that road.

Becky was talking about being real with yourself ... introspective and how that is for TS folk . . . specifically it was aimed at TS folk and their shared experiences. Now before you get all "hey just because I am not TS doesn't mean my opinion doesn't count" . . . remember this is the TS forum and while you can certainly post here as we can post on the CD side of the forum, the question was addressing TS aspects of the self. Jumping in with saying we are being hostile, not giving you your due because you are not TS does nobody any good. If you want to post about how your particular path makes you feel real . . . do so . . . but be honest about it and don't try to say hey . . . we are the same you and I because to be honest while we may share commonalities we are different.

M

[KymberlyOct]

Hi Becky,

I think there are a couple ways of looking at our lives... Either... the world before us is simply an insignificant little piece of a vast universe and we are little more than a meaningless growth upon it and we mean nothing to the "big picture" of whatever the universe is about...I think this view robs our lives of any meaning
Or...
We are put here because we do mean something... What we do here, what we learn here, how we treat one another here all matter in a very big way.... This more spiritual view is what I feel is true and I try to live with this in mind... So for me ... Yes! Being real matters...

I do feel in many ways that transitions hardships and joys are a somewhat spiritual path. You never know what part of a posting in a thread someone might find truly valuable in an unexpected way...

Ashley :)

Thank you Ashley, There are many ways of looking at the world, being real yada yada. As someone that tends to look at both sides of an issue I am grateful for this positive outlook. I recently posted a thread about being overwhelmed. Bringing positive outlooks to either this forum or life are so much more useful than over analysis. At first blush Ashley's comments may appear to be Pollyanna - ish to make up a word or lacking the insight to see the 'real' problem. I assure you this couldn't be further from the truth. Ashley gets it. She knows the challenges, she has lived it. She chooses to have a positive attitude and I am trying to learn from that and incorporate it into my life.

I appreciate those that have been down this path there are certainly others such as Kaitlyn and BadTranny that take a different approach and ask tough questions. Those are equally worthwhile as well because those questions need to be asked to provide insight for a path forward. Any of us early in transition or just even considering transition should be appreciative for those members that stick around this forum long after they need it. I hope we can keep the tone of this forum positive and yet challenging at the same time.

[Tommie.]

Amen Kimberly.... sweet and fair answer observation.

[JanePeterson]

Most of us are recovering bullshit addicts- we spend out entire lives lying to ourselves in order to stay safe... The reason we have to have tough questions and challenges from transitioned members (what some call hostility) is because without it we end up doing the same thing over and over.

The TS forum is an honesty clinic for liars.

So when someone's story reeks, and they get pummeled, of course it's going to be harsh. It's not because the transitioners don't respect you, it's because this is a place for radical honesty, which usually looks pretty familiar- people claiming to be unicorns or different will need to be prepared to live with the excoriation... Because that's what this is all about! And maybe the reason people get so defensive when they're called out on their crazy stories or "unique paths" is because they won't hold up under the scourge of truth... And they're just another layer of bullshit protecting the scared person underneath.

[Marcelle]

Thanks Jane . . . yes . . . positive views are good when they are warranted but you also need a balanced view which includes the harsh realities of life.

As Jane said, nobody is being mean or facetious when they call someone out. This is a hard row to hoe and and if you are not ready for some grim realities then all the unicorns in the world are not going to help you. Yes, some transitions go extremely well . . . others not so much. The key concept of this thread which many seem to have lost sight of was "being real to yourself" . . . digging deep and finding what it means to be TS and reconciling your view of life and yourself with that reality. It has nothing to do with who gets what done, which path you trod or who belongs where . . . it was a question to those who identify as TS about you dealing with the real.

Cheers

Marcelle

[GBJoker]

Well, since I am currently receiving oh so many PM's and crap about barely saying anything, here goes...

Should we aim to maintain the truth? About what? Post three says "yourself, others and the magnitude of going full-time." Still vague, but whatever. From my perspective, most members here are still saying loud and clear how difficult it is to go full-time.

"...experience is disappearing fast and most of the time it's because of a lack of respect... treated like we are arrogant..." Because... All people are arrogant. We're ego-driven narcissistic machines who perform actions and say words that we believe will fire up the ol' "self-esteems." Which lends to those who think they know everything looking down on every one else. And no, I'm not talking about newbies who think because they've read a few books or internet articles, they've become cool. I'm talking about the older members you say are leaving. I cannot count on my hands the number of times I've attempted to talk about something on these forums only to be basically told if I'm not doing it the way the others did it then I need to just get the hell on out of here.

Mayo and Secret Drawer's posts come near to why I said what I said earlier. To follow Marcelle's point, I am "real" and honest to myself. But when I get trashed on for whatever reason, I lose all reason to be maintain any truth with others. JanePeterson: While that's great and all, I've noticed an overwhelming tendency for people here to believe a story "reeks" simply because they want it to, otherwise it challenges, ironically, their view of reality.

Sue: Thus, why would I even want to share? I used to, but now I don't. No one thought I was being "real."

PS: What's "NB"? Ah, nevermind, I'm gonna forget it within a day.

[Nigella]

This has gone so far away from the OP and had been derailed that I'm not even sure the signalman(woman) can reset it back on track. Thread done