You Didn't Ask Me [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

melissacd

02-25-2006, 05:38 AM

I know that this is going to seem a bit controversial but I couldn't sleep and I needed to write something so here goes.

One of the points that is made by both cross dressers and their significant others when a spouse is gaining acceptance that they are living with a cross dresser is the notion that the cross dresser needs to negotiate boundaries and stages with his spouse. Now I realize that because this is such a sensitive issue one would have to be a fool not to go along with that to keep the peace and evolve the dressing and acceptance, but that got me to thinking...

The complaint that I have seen is when a cross dresser does something such as start to shave his legs or wear panties everyday and the spouse gets upset because they were not asked if they could do this. At first I thought, yes I can see that that is a reasonable thing, sit down with your spouse and see if she is okay with this next step and don't do it if she isn't then I thought, well did she ask me when she decided to start wearing boy cut jeans or did she ask me when she did not want to wear make up every day or ...I am sure that you get the point.

My question and again because I know it would be foolish to dig your heels in with a non-accepting spouse on this, but anyway, where is the fairness in that they can choose to do any typically male thing and it is okay not to have to negotiate anything with me and yet when the reverse is true I have to negotiate every step. It feels like we are giving up a lot of power here and it seems like a double standard.

Now I love my wife and I am doing everything that I can to make acceptance as easy as possible, education, patience, not pushing too hard or fast. I am also becoming very accepting of this repressed side of myself. So recently when I started growing my hair and my nails longer she told me she did not want me to do this. I told her they were my hair and nails and I could chose to do with them as I please. I told her that I do not tell her that she cannot grow her hair a certain way or have her nails a certain length so why should the same not apply to me. Reluctantly she conceded that my argument was correct. I have been grooming my hair in a masculine way even though it is longer and anyone who has noticed has liked it. I have been growing and shaping my nails in a way that is not super obvious but certainly more appealing to me. Again no one seems to notice or care.

Relationships are always give and take. Because society does not yet deem male to female cross dressing as appropriate does not give a spouse license to make all of the decisions on what you do within your cross dressing life. Yes you have to negotiate as in all things. But the moment that one side caves into the other's irrational demands is the day that a cross dresser starts that slide back into repression or hidden cross dressing.

If I have learned anything through the process that I am going through I have learned that I have to stop hiding this from my wife and I have to be open and honest with her, I need to help her understand and I cannot force her to do anything she does not want to do, I also must keep her informed but I also have to stop just stopping being who I am because she decides it must be so. The negotiation is not about whether I am or am not a cross dresser, it is about how and how fast I start to manifest this in the real world and while I want to do it with her I will accept that I do it without her with her knowledge and agreement. In that way I am true to myself and I am not hiding what I am doing from her knowledge.

Huggs
Mel

Helen MC

02-25-2006, 05:54 AM

This is a good example why I feel that a Male CD should be open up-front with his girlfriend from the start of any serious relationship.

I have always been so and blew out a couple of relationships at the start when the girls said that she could not accept my wearing panties. My ex-wife was easy about this and we even shared our panties as we took the same size and liked the same styles, full briefs especially Sloggis.

Unfortunately there is still this idea, especially within marriage, that one partner can CONTROL the other, even owns them. :mad: :sad:

Veronica E. Scott

02-25-2006, 06:50 AM

You Didn't Ask Me!!

I know what you are writing about, Where in the marriage agreement does it say I own you. There are so many thoughts going through my head in regards to this post that it is difficult for me to formulate my thoughts .

I have been married for almost 40 years now and I recently came out to my wife about my crossdressing at first she was ok with this and the usual stuff started happening are you this and that and are you going to do this and that when I told her that this is a part of me and that I have been doing this all of my life she couldn't understand my need to be myself and be able to express my self in a way she could not except I guess this is where the rubber meets the road . First I have to be honest with myself and to my wife granted I waited a long time before I came out to her but I couldn't hide this side of me any longer it was driving me crazy and I had to tell someone so I chose my life partner for me it was the single worst mystake of my life.It has changed everything about our life togather we no longer sleep togather we are in seperate rooms the only time we spend togather is at dinner our relationship feels like to strangers living under the same roof. I know maybe I should have told her about me sooner but if I had done that I wouldn't have 3 great kids and 8 grand kids and my life as I know it wouldnt be what it has been,now she has been talking about a legal seperation or divorce the only thing she wants from me is to just stop dressing see a shrink and get cured she said that her shrink said it can be cured and she believes this to be the truth. Neither one of us is willing to give in,my point is this I am tired of giving in giving up and setteling for I have spent my whole life giving to my wife and kids and doing without , when is it time for me to be me what ever that is all I really know is that I have a need to do this thing(ceossdressing) don't know where it came from or really why I enjoy it so much but it has been a part of me for as long as I can remember .I dont have any of the answers only the questions and I don't know what is going to happen next people say that everything happens for a reason all I know is that this has been one hell of a ride.

Helen MC

02-25-2006, 07:22 AM

Veronica, my complete sympathy to you in your situation. Above all things SHUN shrinks like the plague! I consider these so-called "Doctors" as charlatans and who peddle their pseudo-science to their own considerable financial gain and often to the misery of others. Many a person with some mild emotional or mental condition which could be alieviated by medication or time and rest away fro the cuase of their problems have had their minds scrambled for life by the intervention of these quacks.

Thankfully here in the UK they are still considered with great scepticism and your average Brit simply would not consider consulting one, whereas in the USA I understand that going to an "Analyst" is looked upon as being as commonplace as attending a Doctor or Dentist.

Unfortunately many people will not stick by what they say. Your wife was prepared to accept the situation when you first told her then has reneged and gone back on this. I am afraid that you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube and things will never be the same as they where in your marriage. It is a pity you did not tell her up front as I have always done with my girlfriends and my ex-wife (we spilt for other non sexual reasons) but you can't turn back time.

My advice, cut your loses, separate and try to divorce as amicably and with as little trauma as is possible. Good Luck to you Veronica in your time of trial.

DanaJ

02-25-2006, 08:02 AM

Mel, if your wife wanted to shave her head bald, and never shave her legs or underarms again - would that be OK with you? She would not need to discuss that with you, after all, it is her body and her hair, right?

Sharon

02-25-2006, 08:18 AM

ChristineRenee

02-25-2006, 09:19 AM

If you don't feel the obligation to talk with your SO about this stuff, that's your call. It just seems like a hell of a way to run a marriage.

What about respect? Do you respect your SO? That kinda goes along with that whole love, honor, cherish bit, but I guess these points aren't all that important either.

If your wife decided to apply fake facial hair and just showed up home from a shopping trip with such, wouldn't you at least wonder why she hadn't seen fit to mention it to you beforehand? If not, you're a more enlightened person than I am. Yes, but respect is also a two way street Sharon. In my case...I have been a CD/TG for 42 years...I have been married for 11. My wife is my partner in life, but she is not my boss. I do NOT have to ask for her "permission" when it comes to personal grooming maintenance...in my view. If my wife stopped shaving her legs...I probably wouldn't like it...and would no doubt say something about it to her too, but I certainly wouldn't expect her to ask for my "permission" to let the hair on her legs grow out. After all...they are HER legs...aren't they? I'll let her do her own thing and she can cross swords with the general population and THEIR opinions and comments, verbal and/or visual, if she wants, on her reasons for not shaving her legs.

Many times the CD will do something without asking how their SO feels about it...because they pretty much already know what the answer is going to be...."NO...I don't want you to do that!"...and if it is something that is important to the CD...they are going to WANT to do it and not feel like they have to play "Mother...may I?" with their SO.

All I am saying is that while it is generally a good idea to communicate well enough to come to an agreement on issues that you find yourself on opposite sides of...many times...depending on the personalities of the couple...one side or the other ends up taking a militant stand. Marriage is compromise...yes...but every issue can't be a battle royal with a win/lose outcome attached to it. Some verbal battles are not worth the time, energy, and vitriolic language, to fight. Sometimes compromise ultimately means...that you agree to disagree.

As always...my 0.02 here!

Kimberley

02-25-2006, 10:51 AM

Reading this was like looking through a window. Most of what was said was in my view quite valid.

Why is nothing said or at most a negative comment made when we as males do typically other "contentious" things? For instance a night out with the boys with time a a "rip joint" or a poker night or both? Or go for a tattoo or other macho things. Gee, rip the sleeves outta that shirt hon, that's okay it only cost me $50 two weeks ago. I think you get the message. Wanna spend $100 on an authentic football jersey? Whose name you going to get? Go for it, we can manage on soup and crackers this week.

There are a lot worse things than crossdressing that in most cases is of little consequence because it is behind closed doors. My opinion has been that the problem with our CD'ing is not ours but theirs. They make it our problem. When I say they I am referring to all those who have a problem with it, not just an SO. Their problems come from fear and misunderstanding. Sometimes these fears can be talked out but more often than not explanations fall on deaf ears.

What I find most difficult is that after 25, 30 or 40 years of marriage, one would think that a need to understand a partner would be paramount. Certainly the lie is not negated by this passage of time, but at this level I would think the SO would be doing their absolute best to come to terms with this new information rather than shutting down.

Somehow the fact that we are the same people with the same values we held decades ago gets overlooked because of this newly revealed facet to our personalities when in fact it isnt new. What is new is that can no longer live that lie to the one we love most.

Those same feminine qualities that we had while dating (and invariably led to some strong attraction) are still there but now they are viewed in a different light. Now we are somehow less. We are deviants. We are "sick" We are a host of other things. As I said, this disclosure doesnt excuse the deception but should shed some light on it.

It all comes down to the same thing in the end. We committed a deception and lie out of self preservation and when we are no longer able to keep that, the one person in our lives who we trust the most turns on us in one way or another.

That does greater damage than anything and only perpetuates the need for us to go ever deeper underground.

As for me, I am deeper in the closet than ever, totally messed up psychologically, and trapped. Like so many others in this situation the question is now, does my SO love me or am I being punished for divulging this part of who I am. In either scenario, the additional weight is contrary to our needs.

Sadly,
Kimberley.

melissacd

02-25-2006, 03:26 PM

Boy, I knew this one would get some things going.

The point was made would I accept if my wife decided to shave her head or wear fake facial hair or never shave her underarms or legs and the honest truth is yes, I would accept it and you want to know why....because I love her and love is about acceptance and understanding. Does that make me more enlightened, not necessarily, but it does show that I love her for who she is not what she wears. It bothers me that someone else can make these decisions unilaterily. You can express your feelings but each individual needs to be free to make their own choices.

Now I am not advocating being a bull in a china shop. I am not saying that you do not listen. You must be open and do your best to understand her concerns, work through it together. I have and continue to be patient through this process with her.

My key point is - why is it okay for a woman to make all these decisions about both their and our appearance and we are expected to just go along? It seems unreasonable and unfair.

Love is about acceptance, warts and all. Love should not be conditional or a power struggle but rather a partnership where there is discussion and sensitivity to each others needs and feelings but also acceptances of each others choices.

ChristineRenee

02-25-2006, 03:49 PM

ChristineRenee

02-25-2006, 03:52 PM

An excellent well thought out post Kimberley. Very sad..unfortunately...and I do empathize with you hon...but you said what needed to be said I thought.:hugs:

nikisbest

02-25-2006, 03:55 PM

First off,
Kimberley I loved your post, very thought provoking.
I guess I am a little different in that my wife and I talk about
everything, she ask me things( sometimes I wonder why) like
would you get mad if I cut my hair, or would it bother you if
I cut my finger nails off, I broke one.
So our relationship is a little different I guess than most, I don't
feel that I have to ask permission, it is more of a respect type
thing with us. I don't ask if I can wear a bra to bed or anything like
that, but I have ask before if she would mind if I bought some
breast forms (which she didnt care for, so it didnt happen).
I think it is only right to talk about things, because your wife
did in fact marry a man, not a woman. Even if you talked
about all of this before you got married, she probably didnt realize
at the time, that you would be walking around the house in either
her or your new dress all the time. Because as CD's we have this
awful knack for being just a little selfish at times.(At least I do)
We sometimes let this thing take over our thoughts and cant wait
to get home to put on that dress or cami, so my opinion is, try to
be at least a little caring and think of the other person.
I don't think we would want our spouse to shave her head or
put a sock in her pants and walk around town, if you look at it
sometimes that is what we are doing by wearing breast forms or finger
nail polish.
I will probably get bashed for this response, but I think I can handle it.
Niki

There are a lot worse things than crossdressing that in most cases is of little consequence because it is behind closed doors. My opinion has been that the problem with our CD'ing is not ours but theirs. They make it our problem. When I say they I am referring to all those who have a problem with it, not just an SO. Their problems come from fear and misunderstanding. Sometimes these fears can be talked out but more often than not explanations fall on deaf ears.

What I find most difficult is that after 25, 30 or 40 years of marriage, one would think that a need to understand a partner would be paramount. Certainly the lie is not negated by this passage of time, but at this level I would think the SO would be doing their absolute best to come to terms with this new information rather than shutting down.

Somehow the fact that we are the same people with the same values we held decades ago gets overlooked because of this newly revealed facet to our personalities when in fact it isnt new. What is new is that can no longer live that lie to the one we love most.

Those same feminine qualities that we had while dating (and invariably led to some strong attraction) are still there but now they are viewed in a different light. Now we are somehow less. We are deviants. We are "sick" We are a host of other things. As I said, this disclosure doesnt excuse the deception but should shed some light on it.

It all comes down to the same thing in the end. We committed a deception and lie out of self preservation and when we are no longer able to keep that, the one person in our lives who we trust the most turns on us in one way or another.

That does greater damage than anything and only perpetuates the need for us to go ever deeper underground.

As for me, I am deeper in the closet than ever, totally messed up psychologically, and trapped. Like so many others in this situation the question is now, does my SO love me or am I being punished for divulging this part of who I am. In either scenario, the additional weight is contrary to our needs.

Sadly,
Kimberley.[/quote]

RenaCD

02-25-2006, 10:21 PM

I love it people speaking there minds there nothing better
Melissa Great thread!
Nothing more needs to be said!

Good Thoughts

Anita Mae GG

02-25-2006, 10:28 PM

Sarah Rabbit

02-25-2006, 11:16 PM

This is a toughy

I think when it is something that affects the relationship, one should consult you otherhalf. When it comes to things like haircuts and appearance changing
my wife always asks me, as I do her. Yes it is my body and I will have final say but I do take my S.O's feelings into consideration. Trust and communication is the basis of any good relationship

Hugs, Sarah R :bunny: (Thank you Admin )

Billie Jean

02-26-2006, 02:00 AM

Tammy Marie, I think you are so right. No one would like to find that the person who they are to be trusting is keeping secrets from them, especially one as out of the norm as crossdressing. My ex knew that I did it and even allowed me to do it in front of her. I respected her enough to let her know early in our relationship. She never told anyone about it and had even helped with my makeup. She did not want to see me dressed all the time nor did she want the kids to see me. In other words, it just wasn't something we did together. Like you, she was an exeception to the rule but not to the same extent. If a man is going to dress and have a relationship, then he should be up front and let his partner know early or going into the relationship. Then if it is a problem, it could save trouble at a later time. Also, it is the only fair thing to do. Using the excuse that women wear what the feel like no matter whether is male or female is lame because women earned the right to wear pants without it being an issue, but men have not yet gone through the same motions to earn the right wear dresses. Society is not accepting of this and those who do wear them are stigmatized as are the gays, even thought to be gay or nuts for doing so.
I would like to say that your husband is lucky to have someone that not only is excepting, but that loves him and you are lucky to have someone who is honest with you. I know that if I have another relationship that I will be upfront and let them know that I dress. If they cannot accept it then they will not be able to accept me for who I am and we do not need to be with each other. Oh, by the way, I love your hair in your avatar. lol Billie Jean

DanaJ

02-26-2006, 09:06 AM

melissacd

02-26-2006, 09:56 AM

Ok I am not going to jump head first into this one.....but i will say this..there were a few things said in the above posts and I think I can say this and cover it all....

You BOTH need to compromise and be open and honest with each other...if that can't happen than neither can a healthy marriage. Also, the understanding and accepting part whether wives should or shouldn't etc and how fast and it being them creating your problem......if you really loved that woman when you married her then you would have overcome YOUR fears and told her the truth about yourself. YOU chose to hide it and then spring in on her after X number of years after you both were emotionally invested etc......that is just blindsiding someone and you know we women are sensitive...some peoplr have told their SO's prior to a commitment, and if they don't accept it then they shouldn't have married in the 1st place....

Ok not trying to cause ahuge fight but there is give and take in any relationship BUT ESPECIALLY in a CDing relationship.....you have asked us to accept something that is not the "norm" as society sees it.....but that being said, I believe a wife should at the very least try and understand and educate herself...if not then THAT will be her problem....

Bottom line is this for those with unaccepting SO's............if you are truly not happy or feeling that you cannot be your true self, then you need to decide if your relationship is worth the struggle and compromise or if you are better off on your own......

Best of luck to you, my thoughts are with you

God Bless

Tammy,

Thank you very much for your thoughts on this matter. I appreciate what you have to say. The really important points that you made are that I should have told her from the very beginning and I agree (read my post on the long road to acceptance for some of my reasons why that did not happen) and I agree that a marriage is a partnership where things should be discussed and I agree that if it is not working then the relationship should end - the most important point that you make is " believe a wife should at the very least try and understand and educate herself...if not then THAT will be her problem...." and that is where I am stuck. At this stage we have talked and she has said no to everything except maybe reading a book and going to counseling. The books I have gotten for her and put in a discreet envelope for her to read and she has had them for three weeks and not read them yet. I keep asking her to read them and she keeps giving me excuses. I have asked her to read them before the counseling in two weeks from now and we will see if she does. I believe that communication and understanding are a two way street. Yes it is a tough reality for her to face, but I am trying to be as pen and patient with her as I can be. She has known for 9 years now and I continue to try. I love her and I want to stay with her and yet I also have this other part of me that needs to be acknowledged. Yet I continue to be patient.

Thanks for your input and I can see that I have touched a nerve with some people. I always value all input good or not so good because that is the way that we all learn. That is the value of this forum.

melissacd

02-26-2006, 10:00 AM

I'm sorry melissa, we will just have to agree to disagree - I think that is an easy thing for you to post when you say you would accept it when you are not actually facing that option....

Dana,

I respect your right to agree to disagree, I would have it no other way. :)

For what it is worth, for example, my wife likes to wear her hair short, does not for the most part like to shave her legs and rarely wears skirts, hosiery or heels. I prefer that she wear her hair long, that she always have shaved legs and that she wear skirts, hosiery and heels more often. My preference is my preference. Here preference is her preference. I respect and accept her right to wear her hair short, not shave her legs and almost always wear pants. It is her right to dress as she pleases.

Thanks for your comments I say this in all sincerity to all of you that I really appreciate what you have to say, even when we disagree, because that is what a free society is all about.

Huggs
Melissa

Anita Mae GG

02-26-2006, 11:15 AM

I believe that communication and understanding are a two way street. Yes it is a tough reality for her to face, but I am trying to be as pen and patient with her as I can be. She has known for 9 years now and I continue to try. I love her and I want to stay with her and yet I also have this other part of me that needs to be acknowledged. Yet I continue to be patient.

Melissa,
As I said, if you cannot be the person that you are then you must think of healthiness of your relationship. 9 years is a long time.......You have think about what is best for YOU. If you know that she isn't going to come around or make an effort then you are the one who has to figure out what is best for you to feel happy and complete.....good luck :happy:

Kimberley

02-26-2006, 11:45 AM

I think that we all agree on the need for communication and the need for us to expose our situation is paramount before there is any emotions vested in a relationship. It is only fair to both parties. You will not find anyone here who is a stronger proponent of this than me. The real problems for most of us here are rooted in a different time and attitude.

Forty years ago we were "freaks, deviants" etc. This was the time we lived through and for many of us those same attitudes prevail in our marriages residing with our partners.

No human being should ever be deprived of love for the reasons we have in our personalities (my opinion). For that matter, I cant think of any reason that any human being should be deprived of love.

What many of us experience is a shift to conditional love once our uniqueness comes to light. This doesnt mean that our partners dont love us or vice versa, but rather "If you behave in a way that is acceptable to me then all will be okay; maybe, if not then you will be punished."

This is the point where the equality of marriage breaks down and it becomes a power struggle or a situation of control. Should this be cause to end a marriage? In my opinion, not where love is present. This is where the need for open communication becomes ever more critical but communication cant happen if the audience isnt listening or clings to the same archaic views of decades past.

This is where we go back into the closet, live the lie and suffer the consequences. Is the answer to toss in the towel? Is counselling the answer? Most of us have no problem with counselling but the problem still comes back to the understanding by our partner that we are not evil and those are prejudices that are all to often core values. Those are the fears and prejudices of our partner. When this is the case we have the choices, bury a deep part of our personality and go back into the closet, or throw away a lifetime built with our partner.

Is there an easy answer? No. All of these options are what many of us have to face and uncomfortably live with the decisions.

Kimberley.

QUEENOFTHEUNIVERSE

02-26-2006, 11:50 AM

Sharon

02-26-2006, 12:07 PM

Yes, but respect is also a two way street Sharon. In my case...I have been a CD/TG for 42 years...I have been married for 11. My wife is my partner in life, but she is not my boss. I do NOT have to ask for her "permission" when it comes to personal grooming maintenance...in my view. If my wife stopped shaving her legs...I probably wouldn't like it...and would no doubt say something about it to her too, but I certainly wouldn't expect her to ask for my "permission" to let the hair on her legs grow out. After all...they are HER legs...aren't they? I'll let her do her own thing and she can cross swords with the general population and THEIR opinions and comments, verbal and/or visual, if she wants, on her reasons for not shaving her legs.

Respect is absolutely a two- way street! The point I was trying to make, in as few words as possible, is that neither partner is "boss," but that, if you intend to make physical changes, you owe it to your SO to feel her out, or at least inform her before springing things like shaved legs, shaped brows, and so forth on her. This is where the word "respect" comes into play.

If your SO disapproves of what you want to do, then it is your call as to whether or not you acquiesce or not. This is where compromise may, hopefully, be utilized. Maybe your SO would be willing to go along with you shaving in the colder months when your legs would not normally be visible to others. With that, perhaps over time, she will be willing to accept you shaving year-round.

When a GG chooses not to shave her legs, it is not because she is trying to be manly. It is usually because she's simply tired of having to do it, especially if she's only wearing slacks outside. When you shave your legs, it is because you are trying to be more fem -- a bit of a difference.

When I was married, I went through a period where I was shaving as a matter of routine, and my wife went along with it, even though she wasn't thrilled about it. One day, as I was preparing to shave, she said that she wished I wouldn't, wanting me to look a little more manly for her. Even though I was disappointed, I didn't shave that day, and didn't do so again for several months until I brought it up to her and she said go ahead.

Husbands and wives compromise on an endless number of things, from the color you paint your walls to what restaurant you go to that night for dinner. Crossdressing also involves compromise that both partners need to come to terms with. It is simply a much deeper, heartfelt issue. If you don't care what your SO has to say on these things, and just go ahead and totally ignore her thoughts, then all I have to say is why be married in the first place?

BrendaB GG

02-26-2006, 12:35 PM

Or it can it just be that the spouse is jealous? Too often it is the women who are given the freedom to have time to do their nails, hair etc. when it is onltacceptable for men to spend 20 mins. at a barbers.

Oh, Pulleeeze!

Yes, in between my four kids, and my fulltime job, and my housework and yardwork, I have all this time to do my nails!? I don't think so.

We spouses are not jealous, trust me. We are concerned, scared, nervous, many emotions, this is not something we bargained for. Jealous? Uh uh, No, nyet, nada!

Ok, i feel a rant coming on, so off I go to the beauty salon now.......
Brenda

Lulie GG

02-26-2006, 01:10 PM

:clap: :iagree:

bravo Brenda

Lulie :cute:

Bev06 GG

02-26-2006, 01:17 PM

Sorry Melissa but Im afraid I can't really understand you. For a start no one wants to control anyone, but as the TG unfortunately your the one who has to make more allowances and reach out to your wife/partner.
You say that you believe that we should all sit down and discuss things and come to compromises etc, but then you say that you beleive that you should be allowed to do what you like as its your body. Well that is true you should, but your wife didn't marry you as a CD and understanding or not, there is an element of fear if not cautiousness to most females. I got the impression that there was slight resentment at not being able to do as you like after youve discussed it with your partner, so what exactly do you mean, discuss it and then do as you please. I was abit confused.
As any minority group will tell you, it is they who have to do most of the compromising. Sad but true. As for your wife asking permission to wear certain garments of clothing etc. I hardly think that that is a fair analagy. She isn't going into Male Role play, and if she did I suspect you'd want to put a few boundaries in place.
Hope this doesn't sound really condeming but I do feel that sometimes TGs are a bit selfish, and some RGs who are struggling with it, are atleast doing their best to accept it. Its difficult all round but I think if TGs aren't aabitmore sensetive to their partners feelings about things, they run the risk of losing the freedom thatthey do have with an understanding partner.
Take CARE BEVxxxx

Jamie M

02-26-2006, 01:36 PM

oh dear , where to start ?

well lets take this issue of a wife "not letting" you do something . One person can never stop you from doing something . It's your sense of what's right and wrong that's stopping you . If someone you care for and love dearly asks you not to do something or tells you that they're not comfortable with what you are doing then should you stop ? Damn straight !

Okay , let me expand on that thought for a second . I'm not saying that any one person in a relationship should control any other but we have to take our partners feelings into consideration . If you feel your being hard done by explain to her why this is so important to you . Put your case across with as much truth and honesty as you would expect from her and then maybe you can come to some other argreement .

So what if she still says no i'm not happy with that ? Well then you have three choices .
1 Accept her feelings and realise that this is a step she's not ready for , maybe just for the time being maybe forever
2 Realise that what you what to do is more important to you than the relationship is . This is no doubt a hard choice to come to terms with but if it really means that much than the relationship is doomed one way or another .
3 Go ahead and do it anyway and totally disregard her feelings .

Well for those of you who choose number 3 ( and i know from reading some posts that this does happen quite frequently ) does this make you any better than a partner who says "No you can't do that" ? Of course not , in fact in my humble opinion it makes you worse . What you are doing is intentionally hurting someone you profess to love .

I'm sorry to go on a bit about this but there are times when we all seem to forget just what a difficult thing it is we ask of our supporting SO's . We ask them to accept that we are different from what ( in the ajority of cases ) the rest of our freinds and families think we are . To be perfectly okay with that . To allow us to be who we are but to keep that secret from the rest of the world . Just how much do you think that puts on their shoulders .

I know it is very easy sometime to think to yourself "I don't understand why she's not okay with this" . If that's you , then ask her . If you still don't understand her reason you now find yourself back at the three choices . respect her wishes , decide you can't be with them , or do it anyway and disrepsect your wife . Personally I wouldn't go with number 3 , but hey we've all gotta go our own way

melissacd

02-26-2006, 01:55 PM

I appreciate all of your comments. Yes as cross dressers we can be quite selfish. I do not deny that. Yes understanding and compromise is required. Yes society is not ready for this and so that creates problems that are somewhat unlike other hobbies a spouse might engage in. And yes, I suppose at some point we have to make a decision:

a) continue to try and make it work
b) give up on cross dressing
c) give up on the relationship

After all of these years of repressing who I am I realize that I cannot anymore. This does not mean that I want to dress all the time, this does not mean I want to do anything that will cause my wife great angst. I guess mostly I am just frustrated. I need her to meet me half way. Perhaps I/we get into these polarized frames of mind because of our frustration, because we struggle to get a discussion going with the one person in our lives who is supposed to love us more than anything, because, perhaps we start to realize that this could be a beginning, but it could also be an ending if you cannot get them to engage in a dialog.

I am all for reasonable, I am willing to compromise, I just need her to be the same. Perhaps my making what are clearly statements to the contrary at the beginning of this thread are just an indication of my level of frustration.

I knowthat I have touched a nerve here and I want everyone to understand that I started this thread because I have finally come to terms with who I am (in many parts thanks to these types of discussions at this forum) and for that I am grateful. Now I just need to reach the same level of acceptance and willingness to openly discuss this part of who I am with the love of my life. I know that the denial (and I am sure this is true for many of you) of this important part of yourself, eats away at the very fabric of your soul.

Huggs
Melissa

Jamie M

02-26-2006, 02:19 PM

Mellisa,

I'm sorry if you've already said somewhere else and i missed it , but can i ask what you wife's current level of acceptance is ? For example does she let you shave legs , go out etc ?

I ask this only because it sounded at the start like she does let you do somethings just not as much as you would like ,please correct me if i'm wrong .

If this is the case , then realise that she already has comprosmised with you over somethings but at the moment there are still some others that she doesn't want you to do . I know that it's hard to see this when there is still something that you really want to do but that doesn't make it any less true .

In saying that she's not compromising with you over this is in essence saying she's not giving in to you , that's a whole different thing . You say that you are frustrated because you are only just coming to terms with it , well as much as she loves you perhaps she hasn't managed to come to terms with it yet . That doesn't mean she won't but it does mean that as long as you want to be with her you'll have to be patient and be respectful of her feelings .

Helen MC

02-26-2006, 02:35 PM

In my later teens, by then well established in my own mind that I was a CD and happy and content in that state especially when I moved away to a place of my own, I realised certain limitations came bundled in with my panties and skirts as far as I was concerned. Firstly, any ongoing sexual and emotional relationship with a woman, (I am heterosexual not homo), would have the initial difficulty of her being at least at ease with if not accepting my CD aspects, changing my ways in this regard was simply not an option. I always let any serious girlfriend know up front and if she didn't like it we parted. A few did accept my being a CD and one was to become my wife. When we did split up and divorce it was for other reasons than my being CD, mostly over money and such tedious day to day matters. We are still friendly although I have not seen her for years as we live a good distance away from each other.

The other limitiation as far as I was concerned was NO CHILDREN! Not a big sacrifice for me to be honest as I don't like then anyway . To my mind being a Crossdresser and to an extent having quite a strong female side to my personality and sexuality I made up my mind that I would never be anyone's father as it is role which has never appealed to me, I am not close to my own father and never was, and know that I would not have been able to fullfill that role particularly if I had fathered sons not daughters and I have rejected it. I know that some TVs and CDs ARE parents and have made a first class job of it, but it was not for me.

So all in all my sympathies lie with Melissa-cd and Veronica. It is impossible to live a lie and act against one's inner self and I feel that one can no more be "cured" of being a CD than of being a Homosexual, or Lesbian, it is what we are and attempts to suppress that side of one's inner nature will only result in emotional problems and even psychological trauma.

If both of you cannot come to an acceptable modus vivendi with your respective wives then I suggest divorce sooner rather than later and as amicably as possible rather than sink into entrenched positions and acrimony and continue your mutual misery with only the lawyers gaining.

melissacd

02-26-2006, 02:46 PM

Julia,

The short answer to your question is that she does not accept it at all. She has known about it for nine years and has never accepted or wanted to talk about it. It is only recently that I finally broke the silence and have attempted to start the dialog again. She does not accept it, she does not want me to dress anywhere anytime. She says she can never accept it, though she has agreed to go to counselling so that we can talk about it. She acknowledges that I am a cross dresser, but is unwilling to allow me to practice that out of sight. I have gotten some books which she says she will read but when I ask her she hasn't. I have offered to read them with her and she won't. She keeps avoiding the whole issue. I asked her if she would read them before our counselling and she says that she will, but I expect that she won't have read them by then. Perhaps she will surprise me.

The problem is I am trying to get this into the open so she will engage in a dialog. As it stands now I have not cross dressed for many years because I have decided that I won't until she and I have resolved this. The only thing that I have done recently is to start growing my hair longer (she does not want me to because she knows it is related to the cross dressing) and I have started to grow my nails a bit (and I mean a bit) longer which she also objects to for the same reason.

Therein lies my frustration, how long do I wait? Is it not reasonable for me to expect her to have a dialog with me about this? How can she understand what this is all about if she does not discuss it, does not research it. I have offered to get her articles, have her meet with other SO's, anything to help her understand and she continues to stall and push back.

So again, in answer to your question, there has been no compromise because she has yet to have the discussion where compromise begins. In her mind there is no compromise to make because the answer to her is simple, she wants me to make the whole issue go away.

Jamie M

02-26-2006, 03:16 PM

Ah , right then .

Mellisa , i do feel an apology to you by me at least is in order . I misunderstood your situation , i thought you were asking for more and more as can sometimes happen but now i see it's not that way i ask your forgiveness.

I really hope that the counselling helps you both in this matter and that she can see her way towards some sort of compromise .

Therein lies my frustration, how long do I wait? Is it not reasonable for me to expect her to have a dialog with me about this?

the only answer i can give is , along as you feel that the realtionship is salvagable and that you still want to be together and that no it's not unreasonable to expect dialog as long as you are open and honest if/when she does .

my heart does go out to you and once again i apologise for misunderstanding you .

melissacd

02-26-2006, 03:29 PM

Julia,

It is okay. I am not sure many times if I am communicating my message correctly. My original rant was more about how unfair it seems to me sometimes about how one person can unilaterally make decisions about another person.

I do love and care about my wife and I do want to gain her acceptance and I am willing to discuss and compromise. I do want my marriage to continue (otherwise why stick with it this long - in fact we have been together for 23+ years) it is just that I guess I question sometimes that in as much as I love her, is that enough to keep a marriage together if I cannot get her to compromise.

Compromise is a two way street. I have to compromise and so does she, otherwise it is not a compromise. If I have to give in to everything and she has to give in to nothing, well what is the fairness or point in that.

Thanks for listening. This is certainly not where I expected this thread to go, but it yielded some interesting insights.

Huggs
Melissa

melissacd

02-26-2006, 03:31 PM

Oh Bev06, I hope that my last few posts have helped you understand better. Let me know if you need further clarification. I probably did not supply sufficent context for anyone to understand and for that I apologize.

Rikkicn

02-26-2006, 04:24 PM

Thank you for starting you this thread. I think it's really important in the lives of many, many of us.

Your situation sounds very much like a marriage I left. I told her about 6 years before our divorce and during that time there were some rules that I had to follow just like so many of us. During that time I too would give her books to read or web sites to visit. She never read or went to any web sites.

I was fortunate enough to spend a week by myself and had the time and the distance to really think about my marriage. I asked my self, does she love me? If so what kind of love was it? Was it healing and nurturing? Was it supportive and encouaging? Was it warm and juicy?
I realized that she may have loved me as a friend and companion but I wanted more than that. I was 50 years old and realized I had never felt loved by her.
Our sex life was terrible for a very long time and I always felt rejected by her. At times, I would bring it up and she would say "oh no, not the sex talk again". It would always end in tears and an agreement to seek counseling and trying to do better. Nothing ever changed, sadly, but I continued to hope.
I say all this to let you all know that wasn't only cding that was a problem for us.
Back to my time alone, thinking. I came to the conclusion that, not trying to improve our sex life and not trying to understand my cding, was not the behavior that I wanted in my life's partner.
I made the decision, at the end of the thinking time that a divorce and a new start for me was critically important to my life as a human being. I deserved to be loved, honored and respected for who I was, uncondtionally.
Looking back on that times together, with clarity and distance I know in my heart that I did the right thing.
I had been on a spiritual path for several years by then and one thing that I've come to believe is that we should not sacrific our happiness for anothers . The only exception that I can see to this is that if we do make a sacrific it should be because it makes us happier to do so.
I don't have advice for you I can only tell you what I have figured out for me and what I had to do to find love in the world.
Looking back on the "rules" I now see them as creating a relationship that was more mother/child rather than a relationship between two adults. Not a good thing for a relationship in my opinon.
One last thing. I'm so concerned that we are so hard on each other. I agree we should have told our spouses before we married, but we didn't for lots of good reasons at the time. I would like to think we could get past this and deal with the issues of today. To keep blaming those of us that didn't doesn't seel supportive to me. Just my opinion
Love and Hope to you all
Rikki

melissacd

02-26-2006, 05:24 PM

Rikki,

I really appreciate your insights and your words of support. You are right in that we beat ourselves up to much for a non-disclosure for which we had good reasons in a non-accepting society. It does not excuse the non-disclosure, but it does say that at some point we have to accept what has happened and move forward, we cannot change the past we can only make the present become a good future.

Thanks

Huggs
Melissa

Kimberley

02-26-2006, 05:59 PM

I have just finished reading this thread again (and I am sitting on the verge of tears). Melissa and Rikki, so much of your stories are so similar to my own.

I think what bothered me were the comments of the GG's in this. Bear with me if I am just a little chopped off here.

No, you did not ask for this BUT neither did we. PERIOD! What we have to do is try to find middle ground with a partner who has been deceived for decades and whose opinions are exactly the cause of strife for our community at large. Try as we might, compromise is not forthcoming any more than tolerance of our situations. We are not talking about the physical aspects but emotional ties with our partners that are very deep and our being rejected for this unique part of who we are.

Yesterday I was the greatest husband in the world, kind, considerate, understanding, compassionate etc. All those things that you found attractive to begin with, but today because you now know why, I am less of a man, less of a human being? Give me a break! Neither I or others like me are asking you to take part in our lifestyle, if you do that is your choice and we welcome it, but we are demanding that at least an acknowlegement of who we are and why is in order. If you cant even attempt to find out why, then where does that leave our relationship? We are demanding the same consideration as human beings that you do. We are demanding equality in the relationship.

If this is being selfish, then make me the poster child.

Kimberley.

PTPJen

02-26-2006, 07:21 PM

I can out to my Wife before we got married.

She understood and was acceptable and the rules we have is I could dress when she was not home or away on a trip. Over the years I have dresed semi at home, IE I always wear sandles and slacks with nylons. I do not wear make-up in the house or wigs but can be very fem in some ways.

I respect my wife and her rules about this, my dressing not only would affect me but if our friends and others knew they would also judge her.

Just came back I am now daily wearing painties, some womens clothes and bra and nylons daily, as a matter of fact my wife helps me shop. I'm sure she does this as a compromise, but it didn't come overnite... and no you can't be cured... so you will have to deal with this issue, I suggest that before you go any futher seek some legal advise it sounds like you wife is.

ChristineRenee

02-27-2006, 01:26 AM

Respect is absolutely a two- way street! The point I was trying to make, in as few words as possible, is that neither partner is "boss," but that, if you intend to make physical changes, you owe it to your SO to feel her out, or at least inform her before springing things like shaved legs, shaped brows, and so forth on her. This is where the word "respect" comes into play.

If your SO disapproves of what you want to do, then it is your call as to whether or not you acquiesce or not. This is where compromise may, hopefully, be utilized. Maybe your SO would be willing to go along with you shaving in the colder months when your legs would not normally be visible to others. With that, perhaps over time, she will be willing to accept you shaving year-round.

When a GG chooses not to shave her legs, it is not because she is trying to be manly. It is usually because she's simply tired of having to do it, especially if she's only wearing slacks outside. When you shave your legs, it is because you are trying to be more fem -- a bit of a difference.

When I was married, I went through a period where I was shaving as a matter of routine, and my wife went along with it, even though she wasn't thrilled about it. One day, as I was preparing to shave, she said that she wished I wouldn't, wanting me to look a little more manly for her. Even though I was disappointed, I didn't shave that day, and didn't do so again for several months until I brought it up to her and she said go ahead.

Husbands and wives compromise on an endless number of things, from the color you paint your walls to what restaurant you go to that night for dinner. Crossdressing also involves compromise that both partners need to come to terms with. It is simply a much deeper, heartfelt issue. If you don't care what your SO has to say on these things, and just go ahead and totally ignore her thoughts, then all I have to say is why be married in the first place?I have been the one to make the compromises in this marriage. I have made the compromises so as not to cause my wife problems with her employment, her relatives, her friends, etc. I "locked" away a significant portion of myself for many, many years in deference to her. She knew she was marrying a CD before even saying I do. She led me to believe that it really wasn't going to be all that much of a problem. I still even today don't think that she had any concept of what she was getting involved with. I was her second marriage after spending 7 years on her own. She was married to her first husband for 10 years. She wanted to get married again...very much. She was tired of being single...as I was...and didn't want to face the prospect of living the remainder of her life alone...and I felt the same way. But had I known that almost 12 years later, we would still be dealing with some of the more rudimentary issues of CD'ing and having difficulty reaching a compromise, I never would have gotten married. I didn't get married to have someone run my life...I lived very capably on my own for more than 20 years. I married for companionship and to have a life partner who would love me AS I AM...not just for the part of me that she decides that she can accept. I love her as SHE is...don't I deserve the same consideration here as well? Am I less of a man...or moreover...less of a HUMAN because I am CD/TG? Does this give my "normal" SO carte blanche to assume the moral high ground here and dictate to me what is and what isn't acceptable about me? Personally...I don't think so.

We have made a lot of progress in the past year or two in coming to terms with how we both feel about this, how it will affect aspects of our marriage and relationships with others, relatives, friends, etc. But quite frankly...I had some expectations that much of this would have been understood and a non-issue basically from the start. Many GG's feel betrayed by their man when they find out after the fact that they have been closet CD's. They express it as a violation of trust...which in many ways...it is. My situation however is somewhat different. I married a woman who...upfront...did not claim to have a problem with my CD'ing prior to us getting married. Then afterwards, when she realizes the extent of what she has married into...decides that maybe she wasn't as comfortable with this after all. "Oh...you mean you AREN'T gonna give this up? It isn't just a "phase" you have been going through? I'm not enough woman for you that you keep on needing to do this anyway?" Hey...how big does the red flag have to be for you to understand what you are entering into anyway? And on top of that...rebuffing every avenue...in the early days of our marriage...that I tried to help her with. I have all kinds of books on this subject..."well...I don't read books." I have video programs to help explain this for you..."I don't have the time to view them." I am a member of a CD forum that has a specific forum for genetic girls only, to discuss, support, and better understand your mate..."I'm not a computer person. I don't have time to be on it anyway, and how would I know I won't be actually talking to a man pretending to be a GG?"...etc. We went to a marriage counselor who also specialized in TG issues and therapy. He recommended books for us to read together at home between visits...she wouldn't do it. She told him more than once...in my presence...that..."He's the one with the problem...not ME...HE'S the one who's not NORMAL!" This is a summary of what I have dealt with for the past 11 + years to try to get my "supportive" wife on the same page with me so that we can have a better mutual understanding and happier marriage and life together. Thankfully, she has made great strides in the past couple of years and is finally getting more comfortable with both the CD'ing, my being TG, and with our community in general.

It hasn't been easy...for either of us. But I certainly feel that I made the supreme effort to help her better understand this lifestyle and the total person that she married. I just wish it hadn't taken THIS long for her to finally start to "get it"....things could have been a lot better all along from the start if she had.

melissacd

02-27-2006, 02:27 AM

Thank you for the wonderful post Christine. I can certainly feel and relate to the pain you are going through and this is doubly so since she was aware from the get go.

When I saw a few heated responses to this thread I went Oh-Oh perhaps I have done a bad thing by starting this topic, however, I can see now that although there are strong feelings on this subject there is wonderful dialog going on here as well. I thank all of you for your wonderful points of view on this very important and very common theme.

To all who have been following, as a gesture of good faith to my wife, I made a compromise, I trimmed my nails. The longer hair is acceptable, many men have longer hair. The slightly longer nails are less so. I am willing to make that change to make her feel better. We are still a long long way from anything, but maybe my gesture will get her to read a book. I am certain that once she reads one of the books that I have provided her with her eyes and mind will start to open. She is so caught up in preconceived notions of what cross dressing is that she cannot be reasonable, and yet she is an intelligent and normally open minded person, that is the irony here.

Anyway, I continue to do my best and I continue to wait and hope and dream that the women I love will love me enough to start to learn and understand a very important part of who I am.

Thanks to everyone for their words.

Huggs
Melissa