Do you think young crossdressers today will be incorrectly encouraged to transition? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

PretzelGirl

08-14-2016, 09:47 AM

Some interesting thoughts here. As far as the thought of having 1 or 2 transgender kids in a school, I can see that, but it is very dependent on school size. I am working with mothers and GSA/QSAs (Gay/Queer Straight Alliances) and see many transgender kids in my area. One or two per school is hard to say without a specific count per school, but I do feel kids are out more than lets say those over the age of 50. If we are 0.6% of the population (I think this is understated), then it takes a school size of about 333 to have two. Now how many are out is quite debatable. I do know that there are plenty of transgender high school youth in my area to where we have to have appropriate discussions. Just the participation in GSAs/QSAs and other organized youth groups show that the numbers do exist in some significant quantity.

Anyway, if handled under current thinking, the risk is low. A young person who states they are transgender should be placed on puberty blockers after appropriate therapy. As they reach adulthood, they should then go on cross sex hormones if nothing has changed, or if they realize they are a cross dresser, the blockers are stopped and puberty moves forward as normal. I would suspect someone who is a crossdresser that is placed on blockers will feel out of place quickly as their classmates realize secondary sexual characteristics while they themselves are still undergoing no changes. A transexual will be glad they aren't changing. So the process could be vetting by itself.

Alexa CD

08-14-2016, 10:18 AM

One or two? I know one that has 60, they're all being encouraged to transition. They get them together in a group, imagine the peer pressure. There's a huge push for it, which is horrible really, many people I'm aware of through the internet have chosen to detransition or simply halt what they're doing for a variety of obvious reasons. This is what happens when adults, forms of media and essentially the internet almost in general begin to influence the minds of children and young people. Children are becoming aware that they'll be hailed as brave and special people for transitioning, for taking hormones and undergoing surgery, the impression is it's a heroic and pioneering feat to either be transgender, or gay or whatever. The whole glorification and propagation of the LGBT movement is literally psychotic, it's poisonous to society.

When I was younger especially I fully wanted to be a girl too. I am this so called transgender. Thankfully no one got their hands on my mushy little mind back then.

Stephanie47

08-14-2016, 10:21 AM

I believe it depends on the counselor at the school. From what I have read the majority of younger children seem to go through a phase and 'out grow' desires to be a child of the opposite sex. Don't jump on me if I have not chosen the right words. First you have to figure out why the child wanted to be the opposite sex. What was the allure? What was the biological, spiritual or nurturing cause. Past elementary school it appears there is going to be some children who are transgender or homosexual who need counseling.

I have a friend whose grandson is totally confused to his sexual identity. Within the past two years he has come out as transgender. Or gay. He is in flux. He cannot figure it out. At least in the high school he attended there seemed to be an air of affirming his transgender tendency to at least act if not transition to becoming a woman. Among the student population he has lost his male friends. Males shun him like the plague. Many of the girls think he is a cool novelty. For someone who maybe lacks maturity, does it means if you like to wear women's clothing, you must be gay. I know society thinks it has made a lot of strides toward helping kids figure all this out, but, the truth seems to be the kids are still as confused as when I was a teen in the 1960's. I thought I must be gay because I liked to wear women's clothing. That's what society said. Now? It seems the kids are for the most part still uneducated. When a person is truly confused and uneducated it is totally possible to lead someone in one direction over another. This is not limited to the question on this thread.

Angie G

08-14-2016, 11:16 AM

I don't think so.For the most part Crossdressers will alway be just crossdressers.:hugs:
Angie

Teresa

08-14-2016, 12:21 PM

Paula,
The younger generation have more information available and the choices are easier to make because there is usually someone prepared to help and advise . In my day CDing and the implications were taboo subjects, it's something a school boy might sneak off and do in his bedroom with his mother's or sister's clothes. Now we know there's far more to it than that, finding out it's for life the modern generation will have better informed choices.
That may also be a problem , being over saturated with information can also cause confusion, we only have to look at the labels used on the forum to see how confusing it can be at times.

Recent press reports in the UK show a two or three fold increase in attendances at gender clinics, one reported having 150 under tens waiting for counselling.
I still find that very hard to believe or understand, how many of us would have understood gender and sexual issues below the age of ten, I certainly didn't, so why is there an almost alarming increase, are they being misdirected by parents , teachers or society ?

I hope the current system isn't changed too much , I know to some it's a long hard road but with it comes safeguards, in the UK the NHS has limited funds they have to know people who do want to transition are genuine, it's not something that is going to happen overnight on a whim.

Personally testosterone kicked in early so it was interest in girls from an early age, the whole thing became confused when dressing , girls and sex became intertwined leaving me with GD and being bi-gender.

arbon

08-14-2016, 12:24 PM

It would be extraordinary if "one or two" kids in the >36K US high schools (public and private) were out.

There are a lot more then you think. Even in Idaho I know of quite a few kids who have transitioned in their schools. Boise, hailey, Idaho falls, twin falls all have them. Just kept quiet for everyone's sake.

Lorileah

08-14-2016, 01:53 PM

One or two? I know one that has 60, they're all being encouraged to transition...

:eek: I don't know if this is real or pure sarcasm I'm leaning toward sarcasm. Why? Because most everything in that post is either conjecture or straight misinformation. Otherwise known as BS and really not helpful. I strongly suggest that whoever reads that post do some REAL research and vetting. (like the number of people who have "detransitioned"...it is a VERY very small number)

To the OP, there are so many checks and gates that no one is encouraged to transition. However, with today's ability to counsel and help, there will be less suicides and feeling like you are alone in the world. This cannot be a bad thing.

I Am Paula

08-14-2016, 02:02 PM

Jennifer at home- every teenager I know, knows at least one trans person. One or two per highschool sounds dead on.
The OT, and my post were about crossdressing kids being pushed into transition, not about number of TS kids.

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One or two? I know one that has 60, they're all being encouraged to transition. They get them together in a group, imagine the peer pressure. There's a huge push for it, which is horrible really, many people I'm aware of through the internet have chosen to detransition or simply halt what they're doing for a variety of obvious reasons. This is what happens when adults, forms of media and essentially the internet almost in general begin to influence the minds of children and young people. Children are becoming aware that they'll be hailed as brave and special people for transitioning, for taking hormones and undergoing surgery, the impression is it's a heroic and pioneering feat to either be transgender, or gay or whatever. The whole glorification and propagation of the LGBT movement is literally psychotic, it's poisonous to society.

When I was younger especially I fully wanted to be a girl too. I am this so called transgender. Thankfully no one got their hands on my mushy little mind back then.

That's a really nasty, untrue, and ( mods, are we allowed to say 'full of crap'?) post.

Alexa CD

08-14-2016, 10:48 PM

You don't believe me about the numbers Lorileah? I can't prove them to you but I heard it from a parent whose children attend the high school. How are you going to research the number of people who have detransitioned, I highly doubt there are proper statistics. Rather than doubt the thought that people have second thoughts or change their minds you would rather deny it like you want to convince anyone reading. There are just as many suicides too, it's wishful thinking to believe otherwise, transitioning and sexual reassignment aren't miracle cures.

No one is encouraged to transition? Do you actually believe that, they're certainly not discouraged you know. Checks and gates as well, how many do they turn away, we know the numbers have at least doubled and tripled.

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How is it untrue Paula, maybe what you think is nasty and untrue BS? Ever considered that?

Shayna

08-14-2016, 11:56 PM

There may be more than you think. My daughter is under 10 and her basketball team has a child born as a girl presenting as a boy, and another who girl who has a brother that was born a girl. I could see the possibility that a child that young could get pushed in a direction before they have truly formed opinions of gender and sexuality. I would hope they don't get pushed in any direction and find their own way in an accepting environment, but I think the possibility exists.

PaulaQ

08-15-2016, 12:18 AM

@Alexa CD - there is no possible way to coerce gender variant kids into transition. The bullying and stigma they face in schools *all* schools, pretty well insures only the most desperate come out. Your claim of 60 out kids is *really* hard to believe. The largest high school in America is the Brooklyn Technical High School in NY, with 8076 students. My fiancé is a police sergeant here in Dallas, and one of his schools is Skyline #12 in the nation, with 4697 students. I don't know what it's like in the Brooklyn Technical High School, but I can tell you at Skyline there are only a handful of trans kids. And for good reason - being in Skyline is a risky proposition, even if you aren't transgender. So for a school to have that many trans kids, well, it would need to be a pretty huge school. Using the BATHROOM is a hardship for trans students in many places. I can't speak for other places, but I am actively involved with this here in Texas, and I can tell you we don't have a school with 60 out trans kids - no freaking way. And I can also tell you that even with the more tolerant attitudes of many youth, there are enough hateful bigoted little troglodytes who'll make sure the trans kids get the crap kicked out of them.

So I apologize, but based on firsthand knowledge and experience as an activist in this area, your claims seem specious to me.

As for people who detransition, yeah that happens. It's relatively small, and it generally happens early on, either because:
- they lack resources and fail to launch
- they are on HRT for a while, and realize this isn't the right path for them

The first one is pretty sad, but usually they end up trying again later. I see a fair number of these, I don't see this as "it was wrong for them", just that the barrier to entry is still too high. The second group is what most people think of when they think of detransition, and out of the VERY LARGE number of trans people I know, I know four who've detransitioned, two MtF, two FtM. One of the MtF's, it just wasn't right for them. The other MtF dropped out for a woman. She'll be back. Both of the FtM's tried to transition, and realized they simply weren't transgender. It's a really low percentage though, I can tell you that. Nobody had surgery. (LOL, people who desperately need surgery can't get it here - it's not like they perform them at the Minute Clinic!)

As for gatekeeping, the only medical trans youth program in Texas is quite gatekeepery, and looks for kids who are persistent, insistent, and clearly binary before putting them on blockers - which are reversible. It's probably TOO gatekeepery, really. Because at a young age, I knew who I was. And look, here I am now. The kids who transition face enormous obstacles. They generally know what they are doing. The transtrenders are unlikely to come out, and sure as hell are unlikely to transition. They may talk about it, but talk is cheap.

The number of us have increased because the barrier to entry has lowered - there is still massive pressure to not come out, to not transition. I can't believe I am even having this discussion with a faceless, closeted CD, but here I am. Hey - if the barriers to entry are so low, why aren't you showing your face in your profile picture, sweetie? Oh right, the adults who'd make your life a living hell don't exist for kids. Oh puh-lease!

I'm sorry that you are trying to talk yourself out of whatever it is you are trying to talk yourself out of with all this stuff you are saying. Or rather that you are pretty obviously trying to talk yourself INTO staying closeted. And it's fine for you to do whatever it is you are doing with your life. It's your life and you should live it as you see fit. But I'm telling you that the figures you quote on desistence, post transition suicide, etc. are wrong, and the issues trans people face who DO end their lives well into transition are social in nature. Transition, at least for binary trans people, generally works GREAT. If only society didn't treat us like we were sub-human.

BTW, I believe a large number of older trans people who regret their decisions (and there aren't many of these) are likely non-binary and were shoe-horned into a binary gender by a system that only allowed for "male" and "female."

Marcelle

08-15-2016, 06:09 AM

Lauri K

08-15-2016, 07:22 AM

The whole glorification and propagation of the LGBT movement is literally psychotic, it's poisonous to society.

When I was younger especially I fully wanted to be a girl too. I am this so called transgender. Thankfully no one got their hands on my mushy little mind back then.

But yet you are here as a CD still trying /dressing up somehow trying to be / look like girl after all these years later........

Amazing to me that you feel so bitter towards those that were brave enough to forge ahead and become themselves.

Your rather hurtful comments about the LGBT sicken me........why the hate ? You must have some legacy issues that you did not mention to carry this kind of hatred towards a group of people who have been discriminated against for years.

I Am Paula

08-15-2016, 07:56 AM

Arguing with someone with so much hatred for trans people is rather pointless. Alexa CD will always hate, and keep dreaming up fantasies of children being duped into something they don't want to justify her hate. Remember when Anita Bryant had fantasies that homosexuals were recruiting children? Same thing.

PretzelGirl

08-15-2016, 08:21 AM

Alexa, as someone who works in the community almost daily and works with youth when possible (GSAs/QSAs/Youth Counseling/Mama Dragons (a group of fiercely protective mothers)), I will agree with everything Paula has stated. I think things are better for our youth then they were for us because of other youth that accept them is in greater quantities (notice I am not saying all youth). It makes things safer than what we had, but not near totally safe. And to say you know 60 that are being encouraged to transition, then going "well I heard it from this other person..." takes any validity away. I get you may have thought you were a girl when you were young and you know better now. Good for you! I hope everyone gets to figure it out. As everyone has stated above, there is plenty of gatekeeping and social aspects that prevent false transitions. I only know of two in my community and they were both adults. One has mental health issues and disappeared right after detransitioning, so I haven't been able to talk to her. The other detransitioned because of all the judgment and then took her life shortly after. It just doesn't happen often.

BTW, I believe a large number of older trans people who regret their decisions (and there aren't many of these) are likely non-binary and were shoe-horned into a binary gender by a system that only allowed for "male" and "female."

I like seeing someone else say this. Non-binary, older trans individuals aren't very common. I have always thought that it was three parts. One being Paula's comment. Another being awareness as a lot of us just didn't hear of non-binary and may shoot for what we know (think of not knowing about transgender identities until the internet). The last being that I can see someone bottling it up for so long that you jump to the other side thinking the other binary must be it because you have denied yourself for so long, you want to fill in the gap by experiencing it 100%. Basically an effort to fill the huge void.

Krisi

08-15-2016, 08:57 AM

First, we need a definition of "transition". Are we talking about living as the other sex or are we talking about having the surgery to become the other sex? Up until the point of surgery, it's possible to revert to one's original sex.

I'm not sure "encouraged" is the correct word, but it's easier and more acceptable for boys to live as girls and vice versa than it was many years ago. It's also a way for children (and their parents) to get attention. Or even money as in filing lawsuits against school districts.

I know of one (there are probably others) major state university that offers sex change surgery with their student health insurance. This means that for the cost od a college degree, a student can get a degree and go in as a boy and come out as a girl (or vice versa).

So, in general, I agree with Paula_56

Marissa V

08-15-2016, 09:14 AM

The whole glorification and propagation of the LGBT movement is literally psychotic, it's poisonous to society.

If there is anything poisonous to society on this planet, its the ongoing 'glorification and propagation' of the heterosexual 'only the family values between men and women' and 'men are men and women are women' lifestyle thats been happening for as long as the media exists. And it doesnt even matter if its based on what someone is thought or believes for other reasons, that ongoing 'glorification and propagation' is whats used as an excuse for violence against LGBTQ people and to deny them basic human rights. Why? Because that narrative doesnt allow for anyone to be 'different'. And before you start on a rant about how i'm wrong....look at the tv, read a paper, whatever...its everywhere.

Alexa CD

08-15-2016, 10:26 AM

I'm serious Marcelle these people aren't gossiping, one is a nurse, the other is a dentist. This is the reality, in my city there are now at least 3000 school age transgender children. There was a story about how they made a special bathroom for a 6 year old. It really isn't an over exaggeration, why can nobody wrap their heads around this. If you tell every kid that's depressed, doesn't fit in or feels like they want to be the opposite sex that they're transgender, they're all going to believe it.

Lauri, what I'm saying is I would have been labelled and boxed as a child, if I had come out at 8 years old or whenever, that would have been it for me. I, my parents and whoever else would have known I was transgender and I would have fully believed it, I would have been told what I was. Instead I got over it (for the most part) and accepted myself, I can be my actual self and go on as a relatively normal, functioning male without any near crippling social or physical issues. Why be brave and amazing when I can be logical, I can do whatever I like as I am, I can have children for example. As far as the nauseating LGBT community goes I think I can dislike it all I like, it doesn't represent everyone and people should be allowed to disagree with it. I'm interested in a healthy productive society, I'm not selfish.

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Believe it or not Marissa but as far as I'm aware LGBTQ people have human rights, and nobody in any proper position of influence in the first world has called for, or excused violence against these people, or against us. I don't see any mainstream media outlets or TV shows ridiculing or putting transgender people for example in a bad light, the narrative is the opposite. The propagation and glorification of healthy, normal families values is not an issue, mothers and fathers is how it has to be. That's the way it has been and always should be. I don't think heterosexuals are poisonous to society.

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I appreciate the disdain PaulaQ. I disagree on a number of things and I think you've left out parts of your book which may be, for the most part, why. Something I find quite interesting is the language you use, and some of the things you say.

I'll give examples: "LOL, people who desperately need surgery can't get it here", implying what? "She'll be back", essentially insisting people belong somewhere. "barrier to entry", "gatekeeper", "closeted", making it a place, a separate thing, is part of the problem, you talk about it like opening a door instead of removing it, by recognising transgender as separate from everyone else makes it separate. Gays, with the exception of LGBT parades for example removed the door, and it worked, do you understand what I'm saying?

Also "sweetie", really?

I Am Paula

08-15-2016, 10:27 AM

Wow! Cue music to Twilight Zone.
3000 huh? 'Well gee golly'.

Lauri K

08-15-2016, 10:32 AM

I call this discussion all bunk, you're comment about as far as you are aware LGBT people have Human Rights. I wish that were the case, you need to do a little research before you start telling LGBT folks that they have all rights equal to heterosexual folks.

There is also a conservative party of people railing against us every single day now and introducing bills trying to take away our rights.........

I don't see any bill being introduced to take away rights of hetrosexual folks though, that would be fun to see for a change though......

I am done, I don't see this thread ending on a good note.

Alexa CD

08-15-2016, 10:42 AM

People who roughly share your opinion may be the majority here, but if you look outside your window Paula you'll see where you're the minority. The Twilight Zone is right here, you're in it.

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Human rights and equal rights in general are two different things Laurie. When you make the sacrifice for your own good to determine your own gender you have to accept what you're getting yourself into, did you not know how you would be treated? Were you not aware of something?

Taking away rights of transgender people (I thought they didn't have rights) is bad. But taking away the rights of heterosexual people for no reason, that would be fun.

Tamara Croft

08-15-2016, 12:18 PM

This is the reality, in my city there are now at least 3000 school age transgender children. There was a story about how they made a special bathroom for a 6 year old.

This is actually true if any of you actually cared to do some research, it took me all of what.... 10 seconds...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11639240

So, just read it and then form your opinions instead of posting the usual crap slamming a member when you've done nothing to find out if this is true... so annoying!!

A recent youth survey revealed 1.2 per cent of New Zealand school-aged children identified as transgender - more than 3000 in Auckland and more than 9000 nationwide.

Marcelle

08-15-2016, 01:45 PM

So Alexa .... not debating your numbers. However your original post implied that these children are being coerced into being trans. Is that your contention? If so, l can't find anything regarding forced transition factual or anecdotal.

My concern is that anecdotal stories which paint this like a Trans conspiracy ... let's indoctrinate your children ... helps nobody. It doesn't help those children who are truly trans, it doesn't help the Trans community nor does it help society writ large

Alice Torn

08-15-2016, 02:53 PM

Society tends to be a pendulum going way far one, way, then way far another way. We all have a right to differing opinions, and understandings , and things are changing so fast now, in society, that it will take some time to see, if all trends were really healthy and good or not. History or herstory books in the future, will tell the truth.

PaulaQ

08-15-2016, 04:48 PM

This is actually true if any of you actually cared to do some research, it took me all of what.... 10 seconds...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11639240

So, just read it and then form your opinions instead of posting the usual crap slamming a member when you've done nothing to find out if this is true... so annoying!!

Well, unfortunately, the statistics in that brief article (and would it have killed Alexa to say "Auckland"?) don't really tell the whole story. Here's the report they were derived from - found with 10 seconds of googling:
http://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(13)00753-2/fulltext#sec1.1.2

So according to those statistics, sure, 3000 kids in Auckland answered on the survey that they were transgender. However, only 32% reported having disclosed this information to anyone other than the survey. So the number of kids who are out as trans in some way is much, much smaller than was reported. Further, as you continue to read the survey, the trans kids report experiencing elevated levels of depression, suicidal ideation, bullying, violence, and alcohol use - in other words, the same things the kids here in the states report. This is a HUGE difference in reality from what Alexa presented - that is that thousands of kids in (apparently) Auckland NZ were being encouraged to transition? Encouraged by who? The bullies that beat them up?

So I apologize if I came off as harsh, but the abuse of statistics that I saw, and that are borne out by reading the actual source material, is *exactly* the type of thing that anti-trans concern (edit:people) do here in the states. So I came down on it pretty hard. Given the damage those people do over here, I feel this was justified - believe me, I spend *a lot* of time fighting such people as they try to get laws passed here to make transition effectively impossible, especially for young people.

Probably the most interesting thing to my mind that I read in that paper, btw, was that 2.5% of the respondents didn't understand the term transgender - and yet in many ways mirrored some of the same negative results as the transgender kids. Which makes one go hmmm.... (Or at least me.)

TLDR: There aren't 3000 out trans kids in Auckland - those numbers really are absurd. Use the source, Luke!

CynthiaD

08-15-2016, 05:04 PM

I feel that the decision to transition should be deferred until adulthood, primarily because it is a life-changing event, and it requires a certain amount of maturity. You need to think about things like marriage, having children, career, and young people just don't think about those things.

On the other hand, if I'd been given the choice when I was young (grade school or even younger) I'm sure I'd have jumped at the chance to transition. I'm not sure though, because it was so out-of-the-question back then that it wasn't even worth thinking about.

PaulaQ

08-15-2016, 05:21 PM

I'm handicapped. I was born with a congenital birth defect in my legs. They never thought I would walk - but after many surgeries, I did. I can walk, but my feet are pigeon toed in the extreme - I can turn them inwards in ways that are basically physically impossible for most other people to do. This has a very pronounced affect on my gait. So when I was 10, the doctors who worked on me presented my mom with a choice - really a potentially life altering choice. They wanted to saw through the bones in my legs above the knee, rotate them, reset them, and in so doing, straighten them. So they'd still turn in at my hips - that is my problem, my hips allow too much rotation of my legs, but they'd LOOK normal when I walked or stood upright.

My mother left this decision to me. I was 10. Keep in mind, this affected me EVERY DAY of my life, and still does today.

Should she have left the decision to me? Because I opted not to have the surgery. It was purely cosmetic. And I worried it could've gone horribly wrong. I have not regretted my decision a single day in my life since making it. Not once. And sure, it's had profound social consequences for me - largely negative. I'm viewed as a cripple, people stare at me. I'm stared at every time I'm out. It's so frequent that I really no longer notice it unless I let myself. I don't care about that anymore. Being perceived as handicapped in school meant I was bullied.

So did she make the wrong choice letting me make the decision?

BTW, if you want to claim this isn't the same - it's not as life changing, potentially, as gender transition, then try going for a week without using your legs, and get back to me how much that affected your life - because losing the use of them was absolutely a possibility. Not a large possibility, but we all knew I was a guinea pig, and I'd had plenty of that.

I mention this because I feel it directly relates to the notion of giving children no autonomy over their bodies. The surgery would've made me conform to society's expectations better. Should my parent have given me such a decision as a child, yes or no? And if you answer "yes", then why shouldn't a trans kid have a say in what happens to them. And if you answer "no", I'd like you to answer why MY feelings about the matter, which are EXACTLY what they were 43 years ago don't matter.

Jenny22

08-15-2016, 06:00 PM

Now-a-days, it is not uncommon for some young ones who think they are the wrong sex to have medications, with parents consent, to delay the on-set of puberty (if they are of that fortunate age). This gives them time to better come to terms with their challenges and to then ultimately make a decision.

Tamara Croft

08-15-2016, 06:13 PM

(and would it have killed Alexa to say "Auckland"?)Would it have killed you to ask her where she was from, or just you generally assume everyone is from the USA? Contrary to belief, there are actually other countries you know... and omg... they have.... drumroll please.... transgender people... (hows that for condescending... good no?)

TLDR: There aren't 3000 out trans kids in Auckland - those numbers really are absurd. Use the source, Luke!Got facts to prove that have you?

It's all very well people posting stuff they think is true, but what pisses me off is people respond with their version of facts with no evidence to back it up!

The point is this, you all jumped on her regarding her statistics and then off on a tangent regarding other stuff I have yet to see any of you back up.

Bottom line is, unless you can prove something yourself, don't jump on others, it pisses me off and you really don't want to piss me off... not a good idea generally...

PaulaQ

08-15-2016, 06:39 PM

Would it have killed you to ask her where she was from, or just you generally assume everyone is from the USA? Contrary to belief, there are actually other countries you know... and omg... they have.... drumroll please.... transgender people... (hows that for condescending... good no?)

I did ask her. I PM'd her, in fact, and believe I asked in thread. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult.

Got facts to prove that have you?

It's all very well people posting stuff they think is true, but what pisses me off is people respond with their version of facts with no evidence to back it up!

I linked the study that was the source of the news article, Tamara - the things I said are very clearly stated there. Would you like me to quote them back for you?
http://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(13)00753-2/fulltext#sec1.1.2

From the study:
Have you disclosed being transgender?
Yes 32 (34.8)
No 60 (65.2)

So only 34.8% of the respondents had disclosed being transgender. That's 1000 trans kids who are out, not 3000 - a pretty big difference.

Another snippet:

Students who were transgender, not sure, or did not understand the question were at increased risk of violence and had compromised personal safety. In particular, transgender students appeared especially vulnerable to mistreatment. For example, more than half were afraid someone at school would hurt or bother them, and nearly one in five transgender students reported experiencing bullying at school on a weekly (or more frequent) basis

These things back my assertions, not Alexa's. I am sorry for my tone - but not for what I said.

Alice Torn

08-15-2016, 06:40 PM

I agree with Cynthia. We are making experiments and guinea pigs out of little children. Let kids wait until they are 18 and more capable of making huge decisions. Sorry. Just my opinion.

Suzanne F

08-15-2016, 06:43 PM

I was on a a local NPR program 2 weeks ago with the doctor who heads the children's trans program at UCSF. She spent a large amount of time explaining the safeguards against parents or children making mistakes in these matters. They are doing great work there and I am confident they are helping children make good decisions every step of the way!
Suzanne

Lauri K

08-15-2016, 07:17 PM

FWIW

I found it very interesting that this same exact thread is up and running over on another web forum that is very popular for trans folks...........but I did not find any mention of NZ cities being hailed as the basis for the thread nor any numbers / statistics.........

Marcelle

08-15-2016, 08:01 PM

To be honest . . . not super concerned about the statistics stated as statistics are just that, a number . . . heck you can statistically prove a high probability of a elephant hanging suspended over cliff with only it's tail tied to a daisy :).

My biggest concern was Alexa's statement about children being coerced into transitioning. There have been plenty of alarmist articles written by people who are ringing the bell of "danger, danger" where there is none. I believe a doctoral candidate on sexual neuroscience wrote an article published in the Wall Street Journal (now there is a top tier psych journal) about kids being encouraged by parents to socially transition. I believe the author's last name was Soo or Soh (can't remember . . . getting old). Any way her contention was transgender children are being coerced. However, the one issue with her research was she did not differentiate between "gender non-conforming" and true transsexual children. Specifically, much the behavior being supported by parents was "gender non-conforming" . . . it is okay to play with dolls if you are a boy and paint your nails or it is okay to cut your hair short and play soldier if you are a girl. Yes, some used the other gender pronoun and different names but in most case they identified as their birth gender. Specifically very few of these children were transsexual. I suspect a lot of alarmist thought comes from similar observations by other people . . . Goodness do you know the Smiths let their 10 year old son wear nail polish like a girl . . . what's next hormones and GRS? In contrast the Trans Youth Project followed a few hundred families and found that very few gender non-conforming children ever transition later in life. However, those children who are transsexual who don't have support are more likely to suffer bullying, intolerance and depression (high rate of suicide). Contrarily, the ability of these children to begin social transitioning early in life and eventually transitioning as an adult ensures a healthy emotional state.

Now does this equate to some conspiracy theory? No. Goodness if your child was ill would you deny them help to get better? Alexa's contention seems to be confusing gender non-conforming with true transsexual children. If you can't see a need to ensure that transsexual children grow up with healthy emotional state then I have to ask where is your empathy? Look at all the transsexual folk on this forum who suffer years of a closeted existence, self-loathing and depression because there was no help for them when they were young.

Now if there are parents out there allowing "whomever . . . perhaps the smoking man" talk them in to transitioning their child who is not truly transsexual, then I have to ask the question . . . What kind of parent does that? Are they that naïve (read stupid) that anyone with a good story will convince them to put their children in harms way? Seriously . . . if parents are not sure and are feeling pressure, I'm sorry time to grow a backbone and say no or seek a second opinion because that is what parents do. However, don't drum up a boogey man or conspiracy theory where none exists because that IMHO only panders to the fear mongering and intolerance surrounding those of us who live this every day.

Rogina B

08-15-2016, 08:19 PM

I agree with Cynthia. We are making experiments and guinea pigs out of little children. Let kids wait until they are 18 and more capable of making huge decisions. Sorry. Just my opinion.

"Blockers buy time"..In this time a young person has the tine to feel out their path. Serious stuff for serious kids given with lots of counseling and medical help and parental discussion...Everyone involved..The person becomes educated to make their own choice well before 18.

PretzelGirl

08-15-2016, 09:19 PM

Given comments like "Let children be children", lets do some defining. First I will leave Non-Binary/Non-conforming out of this and just talk transsexuals as the main part of the discussion I am addressing is about transitioning and NB/NC don't transition the same way if at all.

Transsexual individuals are those that transition. The definition in the TS Forum (sticky with definitions):

Transsexual (TS) - An individual who is changing their assigned birth gender permanently to that of the opposite.

So a child or teen goes to their parents and tells them that they got their gender wrong. For those that say that you should let kids be kids and not transition them, you child is now either homeless or dead. That is what happens. They don't go and push their trucks and play with their dolls because they are dysphoric, scared, and sinking fast. You either react or you lose them. So what does transition mean to a child? It mostly means being called by the right name and addressed with the appropriate gender, and then changes to outward appearance. At the age of puberty setting in, it means going on hormone blockers. It doesn't mean HRT and it doesn't mean surgery. Everything is fully reversible. It basically stops the clock so that they can mature to an age that we can say we gate kept them enough that we trust their decision (whether this is right or not, I won't argue in this message).

So it is not an experiment. These are tried and true methods that have been fully studied by experts. Hormone blockers are actually considered extremely safe.

Most of what I just said can also be found here:
http://www.livescience.com/50755-transgender-kids-hormone-blocker-puberty.html

grace7777

08-16-2016, 01:10 AM

I think hormone blockers are a good idea for transsexual children. As far as HRT or sexual reassignment surgery, I think the minimum age should be 21. This is a very important decision and I think the 3 additional years will allow them to gain more maturity, and will enable them to make a better informed decision.

PaulaQ

08-16-2016, 02:50 AM

Today it’s not uncommon for most high schools to have at least one or two transgender students. More parents are accepting and supportive. Do you think young cross dressers today will be incorrectly encouraged to transition? When I was this age the idea of becoming a girl was appealing to me. I could have been easily led in that direction.

My opinion is that this does not happen, and is not a real concern. Just because more parents are accepting and supportive does not mean all are. I run a support group, and am part of a support organization. I will be meeting with a trans kid this week whose parents are NOT supportive. There is substantially greater support for trans kids here in the DFW area than I experienced growing up here- until you get out into the less populous parts of the state. But "substantially more" is still not great. The trans kids I know of tend to have a lot of problems with other kids. So there is plenty of social pressure to not transition, in addition to pressure from family members. For example, an oft stated objection to transition is "who will love you if you do this." I've heard this a number of times in my group.

The process here locally goes something like this:
1. Find a gender therapist - talk about gender stuff with the child and their parents. A LOT.
2. Recommend them to the Genecis program at children's medical.
3. Go through a bunch more evaluations
4. If the kid makes it through all that - they get blockers

The administrations in individual schools are also sometimes problems. Both Dallas and Fort Worth have trans supportive school boards. Many of the outlying and rural cities DO NOT, and so for kids in those schools, it is not uncommon for trans kids to discover they can't use the bathroom at school all day. This is because:
1. They are sometimes forced to use the unisex faculty bathroom, but they lack sufficient time between classes to get to it
2. They are forced to use the bathroom that matches their birth certificate. Many would rather avoid this, even if that means not eating or drinking all day to avoid using the restroom. (BTW, I did this too - I wasn't out, but using the boys restroom was always really uncomfortable for me as a kid.)

Aside from all of that, EVERY family of a trans kid I've spoken with has talked to me about problems with bullying their child has encountered in public schools.

It really isn't the case, at least not here in Texas, that a kid can simply declare "I feel like a girl today" and get hormones or surgery.

BTW, getting GCS is quite a process anyway. The top end surgeons, like Marci Bowers (I met with her last week), have multi-year waiting lists at this point. You could approve a trans kid for genital surgery, and there's a decent chance it won't happen until they are over 18 anyway, just because of this. There *are* some surgeons with shorter waiting lists. They tend to not have near the reputations of the surgeons with long waiting lists.

When I was a kid, heck, even when I was 18 and thinking about transition, it seemed like suicide. Now? It's possible for kids to transition. It isn't easy, and in my experience it isn't something anyone pushes, but it's possible. By the way, the kids that do this tend to have, again, in my experience, much better lives than I did. I wasn't able to transition back then. So I was suicidal, and quickly succumbed to alcoholism and drug abuse. I am VERY surprised I didn't die in my late 20's - I certainly wanted to.

If I might ask - how do you know that you won't, one day, transition? I mean, do any of us know our future? At what point do you know for sure someone isn't "just a crossdresser?" Especially if you've decided "their judgement can't be trusted?"

By the way, wouldn't it be a kind of social transition to live openly as a crossdresser? I assume you are talking about "medical transition", but psssh - that's the easy part of this! Why wouldn't you want a young crossdresser to be encouraged to come out, express their gender as they felt appropriate, even if they never wanted to transition medically or legally? Why wouldn't that be a valid outcome? I can assure you that dealing with the comments and pressure from showing up to class looking like a boy one day, and a girl the next, would require really serious effort on the part of the CD kid. Transition is really not, at it's heart, a medical process. Oh, HRT and surgery help a lot of us, but the defining thing about transition - ask any of us who've done it - is the social side of it. I think an open CD kid in many schools would have a very difficult time of it. Would they really allow them to use whichever restroom they felt matched their gender identity that day? Indeed, many of the arguments against trans kids in schools make about ZERO sense when applied to transsexuals, but exactly match the behavior or CDs.

So if you really think about it, if CD kids are being encouraged incorrectly to transition, it's not the affirming people who are primarily responsible, but the ones who are not affirming, because they try to block behavior that's typical for CDs.

Food for thought, anyway.

Tamara Croft

08-16-2016, 03:22 AM

From the study:
Have you disclosed being transgender?
Yes 32 (34.8)
No 60 (65.2)

So only 34.8% of the respondents had disclosed being transgender. That's 1000 trans kids who are out, not 3000 - a pretty big difference.

So, you get 1000 kids from that percentage? That doesn't even make sense. The total kids surveyed was 8500, 34.8% of that is exactly 2958. Lookup Duncan Matthews LGBT Activist, he goes in depth how the figure was calculated. And I'm not arguing the facts with you anymore!

PaulaQ

08-16-2016, 03:43 AM

Tamara - the survey only claims 1.2% of the kids are transgender. 34.8% of the kids surveyed being transgender would make no sense whatsoever... I mean, I'll go back and re-read the paper - but it would be pretty incredible if 34.8% of the kids surveyed identified as transgender and were out. I believe the entire survey sample was 8500. The numbers (32 and 60) in front of the percentages (34.8 and 65.2) were the numbers of kids who identified as transgender, and who answered either "yes, I have disclosed being transgender" or "no, I have not disclosed being transgender". I mean no disrespect, but 2958 transgender kids out of a survey of 8500 would mean that 34.8% of the kids in Auckland were transgender. That would simply be an incredible thing if true! I mean no disrespect, but I simply don't understand how you reach your conclusions... Are we looking at the same paper?

There are roughly 260,000 school age kids in Auckland, if I remember correctly. 1.2% of that - what the survey claimed, would be roughly 3000 kids - what was claimed in the article and by others in this thread. If 34.8% of the 1.2% of kids are out - as listed in the survey data I quoted - that would be roughly 1000 kids who are out as transgender in Auckland. I hope this clarifies what I assume the survey is saying. These numbers make significantly more sense to me than the notion that 34.8% of the children in Auckland are transgender - which is what the numbers you posted seem to suggest to me. Please pardon me if I am misunderstanding you.

edit 2 - I looked for Duncan Matthews, LGBT activist, and really could only find two references, both essentially to the same brief article you linked. My search engine fu is not the best, but I feel pretty sure the survey data they reference is the one I linked from the Journal of Adolescent Health from July 2014 - The Health and Well-Being of Transgender High School Students: Results From the New Zealand Adolescent Health Survey (Youth'12).

Zooey

08-16-2016, 03:47 AM

Re-read the survey data - the tables make this very clear.

The survey questions regarding disclosure were only counted for students who responded that they identify as transgender, which represented 1.2% of the total kids surveyed. Of that 1.2%, 34.8% had disclosed. So approximately 0.4% of the total survey group are out as trans, aka 32 students out of 8166 surveyed.

PaulaQ

08-16-2016, 04:01 AM

That's certainly my reading of it Zooey, and 0.4% being out as trans is in the ballpark of estimates here in the states. This is why I asserted that 3000 out trans students seemed specious. I mean, the ones who aren't out can't exactly be seeking attention, since they haven't told anyone yet, other than an anonymous survey, right?

grace7777

08-16-2016, 04:42 AM

I am posting a link where you can download a pdf which gives information on the survey.

https://www.fmhs.auckland.ac.nz/assets/fmhs/faculty/ahrg/docs/2012-overview.pdf

reinasblack

08-16-2016, 06:16 AM

I was once pushed in that direction by foreign doctors who feels if you crossdress you should be on hormones and especially antiandrogens
It takes a lot of work to undo antiandrogens.
The doctor "does not want you to be gay".
Most Cross dressers are straight men and straight married men is what is not understood. Kids experiment.
.

sometimes_miss

08-16-2016, 07:02 AM

This thread is a perfect example of how one can use statistics to prove virtually anything that they want to, just by putting the things they want into the post, and avoiding others. Wow, what a mess.

Krisi

08-16-2016, 07:15 AM

I agree. Statistics can be manipulated to "prove" anything.

This thread is also an example of how many folks will put little insults into their posts to try to make themselves seem better or smarter while making their opponents appear stupid. Things like "Look it up. It only took me ten seconds." I would like to think we are better than that, but clearly we aren't.

Lauri K

08-16-2016, 07:42 AM

Just another case where the primary person arguing their case failed to provide burden of proof, which unleashed a homework assignment for many here to go gather the real facts and understand, breakdown what the data really meant.

When I detect vague information and ambiguity........ I will call you out, my thoughts are the posters need to do a better job presenting their outlandish cases or expect a barrage of questions from the audience

Krisi

08-16-2016, 07:48 AM

That's an example of what I mentioned above. The word "outlandish". Same for the "I will call you out". We don't all think alike even though we are all here because we are crossdressers.

Go back and read where statistics can be used to try to prove any point of view. It's true.

JamieG

08-16-2016, 08:00 AM

I think the OP raises an interesting question. It is well-known that no medical diagnostic is perfect. There are always false positives (the condition is tested to be present when in fact it is not) and false negatives (the condition is tested to be absent when it is actually present). Generally, if you decrease the false negatives, you increase the false positives, and if you decrease the false positives, you increase the false negatives. Usually, initial medical tests for serious conditions are calibrated so that false positives are high and false negatives are low; you want to catch as many of the real cases as possible, even if it means worrying many patients needlessly. My (unprofessional) understanding is that gender dysphoria diagnosis tends to do the opposite, aiming for high false negatives and low false positives. The long process and high threshold means most people who transition will be doing the right thing, but there will always be some false positives. Note, the false positives will not be coerced; it will be their own choice but they might be temporarily confused and end up taking the wrong path for them. As more people begin to go through the process, the total number of false positives will also rise.

As transitioning becomes more socially acceptable, I can also see how some parents may mistakenly think their child has gender dysphoria, just because they aren't 100% cisgender. There may also be a few parents who, in order to show how liberal and open-minded they are, act too gung-ho about having a possibly transgender child. However, I expect these numbers to be fairly low.

Alexa CD

08-16-2016, 10:03 AM

If we think back to my original point this all furthers what I've been saying in the end. We also have to consider some obvious issues with the statistics presented.

Concerning the statistics first, what is out, why aren't they out, how many are sure they are even transgender or actually aware, how many weren't polled, how many are transgender but under the radar, do alternative identities like non conforming affect results, how many will go on to be out, how many will not, and how many simply did not admit it. The 3000 number was used in an attempt to allow you all to understand that approximately 60 openly transgender or potentially transgender students at one school is actually a realistic number, because it is. I was told this number 2 months ago, this whole social evolution is happening very quickly remember, statistics from a year ago or however long are already incorrect as the number is rising quite rapidly and will continue to do so for some time.

What has been my point, and the topic of this thread is the clear potential for confusion and misdiagnosis, especially due to external influences, pressure and encouragement. I also stress to possibility of unneeded or disproportionate countermeasures in dealing with anyone's issues related to gender dysphoria, body dysmorphia, depression, sexual orientation and all other things related, you all know what I'm talking about I'm sure. That is a risk that I, and you, are well aware of, it is a caution that is close to me personally. We all know coercion is happening to some degree, how many of those coerced or convinced will go on to transition is unknown. This is something I've been trying to describe, this is an issue to me, there are many students who believe they are or identify as transgender, but few of are out, few are beginning to transition. The transgender push has created excess confusion, excess problems for young people, it solves issues for a few while troubling too many others. Why are there 60 children who may or may not fit into the transgender category at a single school.

I have to explain, to Marcelle as well in particular that I take this all seriously, it is a serious health issue. I'm not giving into grand conspiracies or alarmism, I just want people to think about and consider the obvious issues I'm trying to point out, we cannot solve the issues of those that are transgender and in need intervention while disregarding those left in the wake. It can ruin peoples lives, or their childhoods atleast. Everyone needs to take care with this subject, this issue as you all know.

- - - Updated - - -

Do I think young people, or crossdressers today and in the future will be incorrectly encouraged to transition? Yes.

- - - Updated - - -

I want to add I was pointing out that I highly disliked the propagation and glorification of being transgender or the transgender issue. It should not be presented as good or bad, people should be educated but not influenced so that it can be allowed normalcy and respect. Extra care should be taken with the minds of children and young people, as many grow up volatile and confused. I understand people want to jump in and help these people, I do too, but it has to be gone about properly. Sadly we're off to a start I don't fully approve of.

CONSUELO

08-16-2016, 10:10 AM

A complex subject and I really cannot contribute but as a scientist by training I have to put my oar in the water about an often repeated statement here that statistics can somehow be twisted to support the most bizarre of hypotheses. Indeed there are bad data and any statistical analysis based on bad data is rubbish. There are bad statisticians or those who incorrectly manipulate the data but STATISTICS is not a black magic art. There are sensible tests to show if correlations etc. are correct or imperfect. Besides the survey that is referenced here is simply that, a survey. Assuming that the respondents answered correctly and honestly, the so-called statistical analysis is rather simple and straightforward mathematics.

As to the issue. Yes it probably is a problem but is it a really large problem and how does it compare with the magnitude of misery and suffering of those who are forced to feel badly or be bullied about their gender feelings?

Krisi

08-16-2016, 11:03 AM

.......... Besides the survey that is referenced here is simply that, a survey. Assuming that the respondents answered correctly and honestly, the so-called statistical analysis is rather simple and straightforward mathematics.

One can easily manipulate the results by selecting the people that participate in the survey. Next, the survey can be manipulated by the way the questions are phrased. And in a case like this, how can one be sure that everyone taking the survey is using the same definitions?

I don't think these "surveys" prove anything.

Zooey

08-16-2016, 11:04 AM

The 3000 number was used in an attempt to allow you all to understand that approximately 60 openly transgender or potentially transgender students at one school is actually a realistic number, because it is.

No, it's not, or at least not based on this survey. From the study overview...

Ninety-one of the 125 invited schools (73%) took part in the survey.

The 32 students who are at least semi-openly trans are distributed amongst 91 schools. That means one in three schools has one openly trans student. There are 96 students who said they consider themselves trans, whether they're out of not. That means there is roughly one trans student per school surveyed, the large majority of which are not out.

I'm generally not posting here lately, but I will gladly sit here and continue to point out these kinds of errors all day long.

arbon

08-16-2016, 11:23 AM

What has been my point, and the topic of this thread is the clear potential for confusion and misdiagnosis, especially due to external influences, pressure and encouragement.

Can you point to where this is happening and having a negative impact on peoples lives?

Should kids not be encouraged to be themselves and conform to others ideas of what their gender should be?

There are a lot of gender variant youth these days, I think it is great. few are ts though. Those that are and do transition early need to be persistent and consistent in their gender identity for transition to be supported medically though.

You make it sound like some great medical emergency or epidemic or something. Something bad happening. BS

Tina_gm

08-16-2016, 11:31 AM

Encouraged to transition, or not discouraged to transition? Many of us here today, especially those who are TS and have suffered so greatly are here, and have had such a difficult time with ourselves, dealing with ourselves, going through therapy, sometimes leading to substance abuse issues, failed relationships etc etc etc. TS women often tried to be the man their physical body was, and society expects them to be, more or less demands them to be. CDers, on a minor level go through expectations of being all male/masculine 100% of the time.

Now today there is the beginnings of acceptance. Now today, kids will grow up who are transgender and not hate themselves, or live a lie of themselves. They will be able to quicker identify that they are transgender, rather than finally succumb to it after sometimes several decades. And, with a more accepting society, make whatever necessary changes to fit their identity. I see nothing wrong with the idea of transgender kids being encouraged to live life as they identify. Transition shouldn't be made into some fantasy good thing, or easy.... but as teenagers or perhaps people in their 20's, still significantly easier than unraveling 20 or more years of adult life, which often includes steady long term employment, a spouse, children. Let people who identify as the opposite gender of their birth gender have more of their life properly aligned, and experience life without the confusion, the pain and agony, so many have endured trying to be something they simply cannot be. Boys and girls who are happy being boys and girls will not be persuaded to transition. Crossdressing kids I believe in a more accepting society will not feel a need to transition either, in fact, they may be less confused about a need to transition since people are more ok with their gender expression, their identity will not be challenged. So, for those who truly identify as the opposite of their birth, they should be encouraged to live their life as is best for them, transitioning to whatever extent they feel will help them.

Krisi

08-16-2016, 11:40 AM

If a four year old boy tells his family that he is a girl, should the family accept that and buy him dresses or should the family try to explain to the boy that he is not a girl, but a boy? How about six years old? Ten years old?

At what age is a child really capable of understanding the difference, what he really is, and the difficulties he (she) will face in life as a transsexual?

Personally, I think it's incompetent parenting to not make a serious attempt to educate the child and encourage him/her to live life as it was intended to be. This might mean getting professional help.

Dana44

08-16-2016, 11:53 AM

I think that many kids have a hard time growing up. But if a kid that is gender variant or even TS, they should have proper therapy in schools and parents of these kids know them best. This is why there are so many new kids coming out. But a few of them are TS and even though there may be support for them which would be great, but I think the process should wait until they are a bit older to start the process. Heck when I was young, I was very confused and as a gender fluid person with fem hormones I might have been pushed towards that. But I grew up and married, got though life and I still think I would have chosen this life I have now.

Lorileah

08-16-2016, 12:04 PM

i.e. "Fit into the box society made for you" Well that would work well for for geeks and jocks, yes? Bobby, why don't you play football, all the other boys do. It's what boys do...go, play in the dirt. Quit playing the piano or painting. Boys don't do that. I think you encourage children to be who they are beyond social constructs. Explaining to Bobby that while he grows up loving arts he will be bullied by the sports guys doesn't really work, it just makes Bobby feel inferior.

Alexa CD

08-16-2016, 12:18 PM

Zooey, you're calling me a liar. They didn't survey everyone, and I pointed out reasons why we cannot hold on to those statistics too tightly. You actually think only one in three schools has only one openly trans student, the high school I went to had at least two openly trans people and one that was under the radar that we were partially aware of while I was in my final year, that doesn't include me. One trans person per school surveyed, you don't honestly believe that do you? How many people will figure it out a few years later or after high school.

Arbon. You are asking me how that could have an impact on someone's life? Think about it. Often while transitioning someone might spend years in recluse, only later realizing it was not right for them, that's a pretty good example. I encourage people to be themselves, but learning how to conform has many rewards in life, I'd encourage anyone to find their balance. I think suicidal people are medical emergencies, overall the issue is not an epidemic or a huge emergency but systems and measures need to, and are being put in place due to the growing need for them. Your interpretation of what I'm saying is not up to me.

Gendermutt, they should be neither encouraged or discouraged in my opinion. If it is necessary then so be it, they can begin the process after they are properly reviewed.

arbon

08-16-2016, 12:41 PM

But if a kid that is gender variant or even TS, they should have proper therapy in schools and parents of these kids know them best. This is why there are so many new kids coming out. But a few of them are TS and even though there may be support for them which would be great, but I think the process should wait until they are a bit older to start the process..

Why therapy and what process exactly should they wait for? And who would have been pushing you to transition today?

- - - Updated - - -

Arbon. You are asking me how that could have an impact on someone's life? Think about it. Often while transitioning someone might spend years in recluse, only later realizing it was not right for them, that's a pretty good example. I encourage people to be themselves, but learning how to conform has many rewards in life, I'd encourage anyone to find their balance.
.

What I interpret you saying is a bunch of BS

Marcelle

08-16-2016, 12:52 PM

Personally, I think it's incompetent parenting to not make a serious attempt to educate the child and encourage him/her to live life as it was intended to be. This might mean getting professional help.

Kris

Just to clarify ... Are you saying that if my child is suffering from GD then I should just tell them to suck it up and be the gender they were intended to be ?

I am not being a weisenheimer here ... just trying to clarify the comment.

Lorileah

08-16-2016, 12:56 PM

Do you think young cross dressers today will be incorrectly encouraged to transition?

As per OP. Numbers aside. Statistics as to how many transkids per school aside. The gist of the question as stated above. There are some words that I see that we all don't agree on in that. How young is young? What is transition? On these boards we make it a point that one can be Transsexual and do nothing more than say they are all the way to GRS. So it is a wide area.

This is a large opinion question. It is a broad question. It is an emotional question. But let's focus on the question.

Tamara Croft

08-16-2016, 01:12 PM

Needless to say, this thread certainly turned into a bitchfest...

This thread is also an example of how many folks will put little insults into their posts to try to make themselves seem better or smarter while making their opponents appear stupid. Things like "Look it up. It only took me ten seconds." I would like to think we are better than that, but clearly we aren't.

And this post is clearly aimed at me, why don't you actually spell out who you are talking to, instead of throwing snide comments like a child... grow up!

I'm generally not posting here lately, but I will gladly sit here and continue to point out these kinds of errors all day long.

Actually, no you won't...

From the study:
Have you disclosed being transgender?
Yes 32 (34.8)
No 60 (65.2)

So only 34.8% of the respondents had disclosed being transgender. That's 1000 trans kids who are out, not 3000 - a pretty big difference.

Tamara - the survey only claims 1.2% of the kids are transgender. 34.8% of the kids surveyed being transgender would make no sense whatsoever... I mean, I'll go back and re-read the paper - but it would be pretty incredible if 34.8% of the kids surveyed identified as transgender and were out.

Uhm, I never actually said anything of the sort, I quoted what YOU said and corrected your math... you said 38.4% in your post from the study and then you said it makes no sense... perhaps you should stop arguing facts and figures with me and concentrate on what you're actually posting. Anyway, I digress... I really don't give a shit about it, that isn't the point why I defended Alexa...

So some of you don't like the way Alexa has stated LBGT is toxic... well let me take you back a few years, you know, when you self loathed, was full of hatred, no one to turn to etc.. I'm pretty sure those who are offended by her tone have not had a life full of rainbows and sodding unicorns, all sweetness and light.... if you have, then I call that :BS: I'm pretty sure I've read plenty of self loathing, hateful, even suicidal posts in the TS section, but hey... you all must be over it now, so let's all jump on someone that might just need some guidance....

Want to know why I jumped in? and believe me, it's not often I have the time to post, I saw a group of hateful women ganging up on another member for posting something about their country... and took her to task on it... without researching anything... I found it disgusting behaviour, absolutely disgraceful! It really didn't matter to me what she was posting, it doesn't matter, it's not important, what is important is this forum is for SUPPORT, you know, that thing you've all been getting here for years...

I'd actually like to know why some of you did that, what was the point of it, did you enjoy chewing her up and spitting her out? make you feel good eh? imagine that was someone on the street being ganged up on, beaten... would you also lay into that person, or would you stop and help?

And I don't want to hear anymore bloody statistics, or percentages, or whatever... I just want to know why some of you felt the need to lash out.

reinasblack

08-16-2016, 01:41 PM

There are 1,400,000 (1.4 Million) transgender folks in the USA alone and the number is doubling accord to an adult website article.
They have to come from somewhere.
Califirnia,new york have some of the most and they are more tolerable.
About 1% of the population.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/06/30/484253324/1-4-million-adults-identify-as-transgender-in-america-study-says

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/01/health/transgender-population.html

PaulaQ

08-16-2016, 01:43 PM

And I don't want to hear anymore bloody statistics, or percentages, or whatever... I just want to know why some of you felt the need to lash out.

Although I'm sorry for my tone - I apologized about that in a post I subsequently deleted. I responded as I did because I have dealt with a large number of people online and in person this year who express concern that transgender youth are being encouraged to transition improperly - that they will change their minds. I reacted to Alexa harshly, because it's been quite a fight here in Texas - our Governor and Lt. Governor are putting transgender people in the cross hairs and railing against trans youth being given basic rights like gender appropriate bathroom access in schools. Since Alexa was new, anonymous, and posting claims that really DO NOT stand up in any way, and were contrary to the direct experience I have dealing with transgender youth and parents (I am an activist here in Texas, so I have direct experience in these matters), I incorrectly assumed that she might be the typical "anti-trans concern troll" that I've seen so often this past year. I apologize for my tone, but stand behind my analysis. I am sincere - I am very sorry Alexa, I was very confrontational, and didn't handle things in a manner that was nice at all. I regret doing that. That said, I can't agree with your conclusions, and so about the best I can hope for is to agree to disagree on this.

Marcelle

08-16-2016, 01:45 PM

Hi Tamara

Not sure if I am included in the group but here goes ...

The individual indicated that children are being coerced to transition and provided numbers. I personally did not care about the numbers a they are meaningless without context. I wanted her to clarify what supports that assertion beyond numbers. Who is implicit, schools, parents, doctors?

Alexa did not post looking for support because she is going through a rough patch. She believes in her heart of hearts that trans folk should just keep a low key, not make a fuss and take things as they come irrespective of what garbage gets slung at them. She has made the clear in other posts "offering us folk who transition a reality check about which bathroom we should use". That is her opinion and she is welcome to it . . . no harm no foul and her and I have been over this in various PMs and neither is going to change their minds. However, if she wants to post a comment and state something as outlandish as "coercion of minors to transition is a national epidemic" or that somehow transitioning is being glorified and people who do so are being treated like heroes (hmmm . . . must have missed that parade) then she should be able to provide some concrete evidence to the fact. Saying 3, 30, 3000 or 3,000,000 school children identify as TG does not imply in any manner that "coercion is a national epidemic" as numbers without context are meaningless.

Not arguing, not beating her up just asking for facts to support her point of view.

Cheers

Marcelle

PaulaQ

08-16-2016, 01:57 PM

One more small thing - because I don't feel I explained

I just want to know why some of you felt the need to lash out.
quite enough.

I've had many conversations with trans youth and their parents in my area. I know what they go through - it's a living hell for many of them. Hearing that they are being coddled and encouraged to transition because of overly positive media coverage made me, frankly furious. Perhaps this really is the case in Auckland New Zealand, and they are doing just crazy stuff. But I know this is the opposite of what's happening here in Texas, and it made me very angry. Couple that with seemingly poor use of statistics, and I overreacted. Again, I am sorry for the way I said things to Alexa, and for some of the things I said to her. I was out of line. However, I stand by my analysis of the data that I provided that was the basis of her claims and the article you provided Tamara, and I make no apologies for that. I just wish I'd said it better. For other members who may have felt disrespected by what I said, or the way I said it, then I am very sorry for the words I used. I will do better.

arbon

08-16-2016, 02:00 PM

And I don't want to hear anymore bloody statistics, or percentages, or whatever... I just want to know why some of you felt the need to lash out.

Because she makes statement like this

The transgender push has created excess confusion, excess problems for young people, it solves issues for a few while troubling too many others.

Based on what? What does she really know about it. Just an opinion based on nothing but their own thoughts.

PaulaQ

08-16-2016, 02:19 PM

I'm not sure if the process is like this in New Zealand, but the process for getting HRT as a child in Australia sounds pretty difficult:

https://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pg5L7KPkKG?play=true

Is it significantly easier in Auckland, for example, than in Australia? (I realize they may be in the same part of the world, but they are different nations with differing laws.)

edit: Sorry, here's another one:
Transgender teenagers 'risking lives' buying hormones on black market (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-15/transgender-teens-buying-black-market-hormones/7722084)

Alice Torn

08-16-2016, 03:04 PM

I understand why some depart this site, and never return, as well as other sites.

Kate Simmons

08-16-2016, 03:24 PM

It may be a little easier today but it's still a lot of work and dedication and a big decision. To make it an informed decision we need to know who we are and what we want to do. I always wanted to be a female secret agent, inspired by movies and shows in the 1960's. I more or less became a spy albeit as a male. I had every intention to get as they used to call it a "sex change" after my time in the service but then things changed and I met my future wife and decided to give the "guy thing" a chance. Now I realize I don't need to transition to be myself and I enjoy ALL of my feelings. I don't regret a thing. The thing is we never HAVE to be this or that, just ourselves.:battingeyelashes::)

Danielle/Mo

08-16-2016, 04:38 PM

I don't think anybody will be pushed into transition that does not really want to. I have wanted to be a girl since around age five. I was able to suppress it but the need grew stronger as I got older. They will know if they need to do this or not. I would give everything I own to be able to go back and transition at an early age. I Knew what I wanted then as I know what I want today. I am in the process of transitioning now and I am over 50. I am becoming extremely discouraged at my results so far appearance wise. I am happy that today's youth have all this available to them. At the same time I get depressed and cry when I read threads like this at what could have been because that should have been me. This will save them from turning out like me. So it is a good thing.

Alice Torn

08-16-2016, 05:19 PM

Kate has a point in sharing what Kate went through, including Viet Nam combat hell. Learning to be ourselves, regardless of what we are wearing.

Lauri K

08-16-2016, 05:20 PM

So some of you don't like the way Alexa has stated LBGT is toxic... well let me take you back a few years, you know, when you self loathed, was full of hatred, no one to turn to etc.. I'm pretty sure those who are offended by her tone have not had a life full of rainbows and sodding unicorns, all sweetness and light.... if you have, then I call that :BS:

Alexa did not come here looking for support; she came here with an agenda of her own posting.

The ladies here have always supported anyone who asked for support provided it was a reasonable request and they were not being trolled

But coming here and bashing the ENTIRE LGBT community of the USA with all the pain, loss of life (Orlando), legal battles, discrimination, etc we have been through.............really ...........and for Alexa to call the entire LGBT community toxic and poisonous is uncalled for and should not be condoned on this forum as acceptable behavior.

It should be a pre requisite to at the very least to be a LGBT friendly ally just to join. (No Discrimination Allowed)

The LGBT movement should be seen as a positive and necessary movement, and to take this one step further I am telling you every single person on this forum has benefited from the LGBT movement here in the USA in some form or fashion.

While the LGBT community has certainly had it's up and downs and even infighting against T’s and CD’s over the years in the US, I still feel we are stronger today.

The real thing here is Alexa made no case for why the New Zealand LGBT community is poisonous and toxic and is a state of chaos. However she did point her reply directly to me knowing that I live in Texas in a state that has done everything under the sun possible to take away LGBT rights. If you do not believe me do some research, it won’t take long probably less than 10 seconds.

Not here to hurt feeling’s but I am not going to take fictional posts as being factual.

PaulaQ

08-16-2016, 06:07 PM

One or two? I know one that has 60, they're all being encouraged to transition.

OK, this is a pretty startling quote - this is one of the things that set me off - the number of kids and the idea they'd be pushed seemed, well fishy.

They get them together in a group, imagine the peer pressure. There's a huge push for it, which is horrible really, many people I'm aware of through the internet have chosen to detransition or simply halt what they're doing for a variety of obvious reasons.

So now we get internet desistence and detransition myths. These have been debunked in numerous places - I spoke from firsthand experience, I know relatively few detransitioners, other than those who fail to launch because of lack of resources. I know lots of trans people, and I know people personally who've detransitioned. It happens. This statement also seemed rather unlikely to me, particularly supported by "many people I'm aware of through the internet."

This is what happens when adults, forms of media and essentially the internet almost in general begin to influence the minds of children and young people. Children are becoming aware that they'll be hailed as brave and special people for transitioning, for taking hormones and undergoing surgery, the impression is it's a heroic and pioneering feat to either be transgender, or gay or whatever.

If this is really true, and I must confess, I have my doubts, then I'll be immigrating to New Zealand. I'm sorry, but this is a fairly inflammatory statement, and it angered a great many of us.

The whole glorification and propagation of the LGBT movement is literally psychotic, it's poisonous to society.

This is an extremely prejudiced statement. If we are to allow talk of the LGBT movement as psychotic, toxic, and poisonous, then I am not sure how supportive this forum can really be. These are the kinds of messages I grew up with, and I found them to be exceedingly harmful during my life. I hear them now from people who are local who are vehemently anti-LGBT. Anyway, this statement alone made me furious. I felt it needed a strong rebuttal, which I provided. If we are going to allow outright hate speech here, then I am not sure what purpose can actually be served by anyone being here. I'm sorry to say it so plainly, but that's how it seems to me.

When I was younger especially I fully wanted to be a girl too. I am this so called transgender. Thankfully no one got their hands on my mushy little mind back then.

This one statement is what I think their entire series of posts is really about. I feel really badly for them - having this much internalized self-hatred is not healthy.

You don't believe me about the numbers Lorileah? I can't prove them to you but I heard it from a parent whose children attend the high school. ... I'm serious Marcelle these people aren't gossiping, one is a nurse, the other is a dentist.

Look, I can find local people right here in Texas who'll say the same things about transgender kids as Alexa's nurse and dentist. They are also the people who want to deny any ability for transgender kids to transition in school, making statements like "you'll let grown men shower with your 8 year old daughter!" I wish I was making that up - it's mind boggling that anyone would be perverse enough to even think of stuff like that, but I spent a big part of my spring dealing with statements more or less of this type. We grow 'em dumb here in Texas, what can I say?

I don't know how things are in Auckland, but here in Texas, who's trans and who isn't is fairly guarded information by the schools, at least until it becomes obvious. So the parents of the kids who are considering transition probably have a better idea of the numbers than just random people who have kids in the school. Although at a certain level, they'll know about some of the trans kids as well. Anyway, we don't have any idea about the credibility of the people she quotes, but given some of the other statements I quoted above, do you blame me for being skeptical?

So - inflammatory anti-lgbt rhetoric, claims about trans youth that are more or less identical to the ones I've dealt with all spring from people who want to STOP trans youth from transition, numbers that appear to be wildly, crazily exaggerated. No kidding we landed on her with both feet.

Lorileah

08-16-2016, 07:40 PM

while I think the premise of the thread was good, it has become way to adversarial. I am closing it. If any other staff wants to reopen they may but I am getting a headache

Tamara Croft

08-17-2016, 04:31 AM

I know this thread is closed, but I'm going to address these quotes and do feel free to PM me to continue this discussion. However, this ganging up mentality is going to stop, you are all here for support, it doesn't matter what you or I believe, everyone is entitled to it!

Based on what? What does she really know about it. Just an opinion based on nothing but their own thoughts.

That's called freedom of speech, which is not against the law, nor does it break any rules of this board. If a member cannot have their own opinion and thoughts just because you don't agree with them, then that's a very sad day for everyone isn't it.. she isn't a sheep, she follows her own life and doesn't have to conform to the way you think or believe.

Alexa did not come here looking for support; she came here with an agenda of her own posting.

Really? you read her introduction did you? you've messaged her and spoken to her? you live her life now do you? Would you like to give her your agenda for being here so she knows how to behave like you? no? I didn't think so... She has her own agenda, she is in a vulnerable place, she needs guidance and support, she is young, outspoken and not afraid to voice an opinion and that's a good thing.

But coming here and bashing the ENTIRE LGBT community of the USA with all the pain, loss of life (Orlando), legal battles, discrimination, etc we have been through.............really ...........and for Alexa to call the entire LGBT community toxic and poisonous is uncalled for and should not be condoned on this forum as acceptable behavior.

She isn't from the USA (for the second time) and that's not the first time I've seen people talk about the LGBT being toxic etc... you think that's a new thing? you are sadly mistaken. How many members have joined here saying they hate their life, they hate what they are and wish they were dead... How many of out GG members have joined that hate the life they've been given with their TG partner? you don't know... you have no idea, it's not all rainbows and fairy tales for everyone, some people hate the whole thing and wish it would go away. As an Administrator of this board, I have read thousands of posts, you as a member probably have not so you wouldn't know the half of it.

It should be a pre requisite to at the very least to be a LGBT friendly ally just to join. (No Discrimination Allowed)

I don't think so, you think we are going to turn people away that are in this life but aren't friendly to the LGBT, seriously? you and I both know that's :BS: and it's never going to happen. Me or the staff are not going to start removing members that don't conform to the norm... just isn't going to happen. If that were the case, half of the women that join would be removed... we aren't sheep, we are individuals that abide by the law, not by what you think.

That's all I have to say, please feel free to PM me if you take issue with what I have said, but I don't want to hear anymore about statistics, I'm not interested, I just want this board to run nice and smoothly without members ganging up on other members for not being a sheep!!!