What can we do to get Crossdressing accepted as a social Norm? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

leonal123

08-21-2016, 12:36 PM

It will never be accepted as a social norm. Ever.

It will however, become more "accepted" as kids today become adults. Cross dressers represent only a small fraction of any population. It can't be a "social norm" because that represents "normalcy." Cross dressing is not typical, or average, or "normal" in that sense.

But there has to be some way.. Sometimes I feel it depends on how we carry ourselves. I mean, if I am talking to someone all dressed, without pointing the obvious elephant in the room, and if we are discussing, people take it seriously.. But if I behave something in unnatural way, like talkign in high frequency.. you know what i maen, then they raise the eyebrows.. I think if we carry ourselves and show that its part of us, then I think people will accept it.. thats my take..
What do you think?
i told couple of my high school gal pals that I am crossdresser, I am submissive, I am straight and I am bottom, its who I am.. And to my surprise, they both were very accepting and supportive.. I shared my pics in dress and they liked it.. But I dont know how will it get accepted.. Most times, crossdressing is used to create humor in the movies and series..There are very few movies which show it seriously.. Mass media could be the other way we can get it accepted..

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@Marissa, thanks for the books.. Checkout the course on advance communication on coursera.. It talks about how media can change our mindset.. But the key is that we have to do some bit for.. If given a chance, i would like to live en femme full time.. I am serious about it.. But If we could all pitch in ideas and work on it, it could work out..

Nigella

08-21-2016, 12:57 PM

Tortoise and the Hare (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare)

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Slow and Steady is the way to go. You only have to look at history. Changes did not happen overnight, they took years, decades, even centuries to change the "normal".

One of the issues we have at the moment is the

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which the transgender community sits under. Whilst we are seen one group, with the worst being accepted as the "standard", there will be resistance to accepting us.

EVENTUALLY change will happen, maybe not in our lifetime, but you can bet your bottom

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things will change, you just need to do what you can, within your own circle.

Rachael Leigh

08-21-2016, 01:40 PM

I think education is the key, no not in the schools but just in general. There is more and more research out there that point out they just don't know why people cross dress or are transgendered and as it gets a more deeper look it will become clear to many is that it's just a part of some and they are who they are.
I know some may still question that but most will just go on about their business and realize we have much bigger things in our society to tackle than men or even women who cross the gender lines

Karmen

08-21-2016, 01:51 PM

I don't think crossdressing will ever become fully accepted as a social norm on the west and we'll always be "weirdos" for general population. The only thing that can help us a little are famous people supporting "genderless” fashion and make it popular among younger generations. That would help us get away with dressing in more feminine style and use female clothes and accesories. (check about Genking and genderless fashion in Japan) But if you would want to be presented as a women, not just as a men dressed a little differently, it will probably still raise eyebrows to many. And in corporate enviroment I don't really see this going through at all. Even for women are quite strict dress codes. I don't believe that any big corporation would allow their male representatives dress in anything that classic male clothes.

Jodi

08-21-2016, 01:54 PM

When one considers the hatred that is being preached today in the US by some very public figures, cd'ing acceptability is a long way off.

jodi

Meghan4now

08-21-2016, 01:59 PM

I've got a plan. If we use the subgugating CD ray on enough of the male population and convert say 55% of the population into clones of Franken Furter, then we will have won. Muahhahaha!

Phoebe Reece

08-21-2016, 02:10 PM

Just discussing this among crossdressers will do nothing to change the situation. What does make a difference is to go out in public in the daylight, crossdressed, and doing normal things. Remember that if you are "passing" as a female, you are not helping to change attitudes.

Adriana Moretti

08-21-2016, 02:19 PM

I am not sure it will ever be considered normal, however IMO if some gals can hold off looking like street walkers when they go out in public ( not saying that is anyone on this site ) , and look normal, perhaps it will draw less attention to the situation, acceptance is different depending on where you live. In some places its not that big of a deal, in others it is, I have trans friends who are fully out and fully supported, and others who have struggled.

lingerieLiz

08-21-2016, 02:29 PM

It will still take a long while if ever. The problem is diversity of crossdressing and gender. Consider a ball stick a rod through it for each variation then add sexual orientation. societal elements and the list goes on. The difference between some of the currently accepted variations is that they are relative low in variations. If you are gay then you like guys there are only male and female. Use the rod to go from extreme one way to the other with the center neutral.

I realize this is an over supplication and there are a lot of variations in sexual interest, but crossdressing is the only one that is obvious to the non participant.

Lana Mae

08-21-2016, 02:30 PM

OK!! I have a facebook that is very liberal and most of the time people are on "our" side!! People think NC government is very wrong with HB2 and are sick of all the bigotry and hate that now exists in this country!! If this is a reflection of how others feel then there is some hope!!! I express myself as a male and voice my opinions and usually have people side with me and they even "shout down" those who do not!!! So chin up girls it is starting to swing the other way!!!!!!!! Hugs all around Lana Mae

Zooey

08-21-2016, 03:10 PM

Lana Mae, one thing you should think about critically is whether they are supporting crossdressers or transitioned trans men and women. I have seen lots of people who assume all "transgender" people are like me - cis-normative, transitioned, full-time, on HRT, surgery-bound, etc. Also note, legal rights and social acceptance are two separate, albeit related, battles. True social acceptance will take longer.

If you want CDing to be more accepted, then the path is clear. A LOT of you need to come out, and you need to start living your lives in the open. Stop hiding that you're a crossdresser. Show people that you're not a problem. Go out and live your lives. If you're constantly waiting for more people to accept it before you do that, you'll be waiting forever.

Tracii G

08-21-2016, 03:41 PM

If you want CDing to be more accepted, then the path is clear. A LOT of you need to come out, and you need to start living your lives in the open. Stop hiding that you're a crossdresser. Show people that you're not a problem. Go out and live your lives. If you're constantly waiting for more people to accept it before you do that, you'll be waiting forever.[/QUOTE]

I know I'll get bashed for agreeing with this but thats it exactly.
I know you closet girls will nit pick this to death like you always do but honestly there is no other way than to be seen in public.
No matter what you say if you are not "out "there no one will see you and therefore you are out of sight out of mind so to speak.
If you want acceptance you personally have to do something about it to earn it.
I am going to get into so much trouble for being honest but this shit always gets me fired up
Some want everyone else to do the grunt work but when it comes to pitching in its like they are nowhere to be found.

Teresa

08-21-2016, 03:46 PM

Leonal,
The situation does appear to be changing in the UK, I've already raised the point about the 2021 national census raising far more questions to help provide better facilities and hopefully funding for the TG/TS community. Gender clinics have had a two or three fold increase in cases waiting for counselling, it's obviously coming more to the attention of the general public . Some local authorities are allowing schools to ask parents what gender the child may want to enter school as, although I'm not so sure about the implications of that thinking, it may deter some parents from entering certain schools with concerns over the style of teaching the child may receive .

Without doubt society is changing , men and women are becoming more on par , jobs are becoming more equal, sadly there are too many single parent families , so men are performing more domesticated jobs to bring up their children, more women are choosing to work and of course we now have same sex marriages. Gender lines are far more blurred than they ever use to be, a recent report claimed men and women's brains are more similar than previously thought.

Will crossdressing become a social norm ? Possibly not, I feel there will still need to a definite reason for doing it but our wiring does appear to be coming closer together . Armed forces are accepting TG and TS members, there have been some recent of high profile TSs in industry and commerce.

On a personal level I no longer concern myself who knows about my dressing, I do think we have to consider how we present ourselves, we may not care at times, but if we want the public to understand and accept us because they think we want to be women then perhaps we should dress and act accordingly. If we dress like tarts then we are going to put the wrong message across, more of a sexual one. I know we all try and conform to society, as CDers we still have that to consider if we want to be openly accepted .

Tracii does have a point, as I've now found getting out there is the only way to earn acceptance. At our last social meeting there was a wedding also taking place, the bride and groom came to our meeting room and invited us all to join them in a drink in their reception room , that was a wonderful way of being accepted.

Rachael Leigh

08-21-2016, 03:51 PM

Traci I somewhat agree those who aren't out need to decide if it's right for them and do it but keep in mind many here do have to consider their families and spouse if married.
I've taken big steps for me going out but for my relationship it's been difficult but I made this decision knowing it could be a problem for my wife. So it is difficult for some and I did take the risk and now I'm glad.
I also agree if your going to go out do so and dress to blend do normal things like shopping or eating out and such don't be afraid to just be yourself en fem.
Will we ever be totally accepted probably not heck even in our own family's that will be true but we all must decide this on our own and be comfortable with our decision
Leigh

MichelleDevon

08-21-2016, 04:11 PM

I think there are two significantly different groups involved here as has already been brought out - those who are transgendered/ transsexual and those of us who are guys dressing up. In some countries the former group have achieved substantial progress towards acceptance following some pretty high profile people pushing the boundaries. They are perhaps perceived as having a genuine reason for their dressing as women. Those of us who are "just" crossdressers are some way behind. I think that, as a group, we tend to hide behind our guilt and believe that we will be ridiculed. And I am equally sure that there are those amongst us who dress and behave in a way that leads to ridicule or suspicion.

But, that said, I am also of the opinion that what is really needed is education and an increase in society's awareness that we are not freaks or perverts or gays or whatever other labels their bigotted ignorance places on us. We are ordinary people and something in our psychological make-up means that we actually enjoy dressing up in clothes normally worn by the other gender. That is not "wrong" - just a bit different from the perceived "norm". But our own reticence at being out there only encourages society in their misconception about what and who we are.

We need to be out there in the real world but not looking as though we are parodying womanhood. The more we are seen and the more we appear to be ordinary people the more likely it is that we will be accepted as what we are.

Personally I try very hard to blend rather than making myself stand out; I am out there whenever I can be and am readily accepted wherever I have been. I try my best to encourage others to be out there too.

It is a slow, desperately slow, process but it is way better than it was 40 years ago or even 10 years ago...

Michelle
xx

josrphine

08-21-2016, 04:28 PM

Hi Leonal, I understand all of what everone has put in there answer. I live on the west coast of Florida, Venice south of Tampa. This week end I have done what I like to do most wk ends. Yesterday I went to the Hard Rock Casino from 9:30 to 6:00 the amount of people get to much after 6. I used the women rest rm. I ate in the bufay restrant. In all I was very well received an no one , I say again no one said any thing negative to me. I had a great time playing the slots an roulette, I sat next to both men an women and we talked as we played. I have been doing this for over a year. I have gone to the Casino south of here and stayed overnight dressed all the time. I go out to the local places to eat with my wife, my life in going out as a women is I hate to say is normal. Right now still dressed as a women, my wife she is takeing a nap. Are going to the 7:00 church were I am very well received. We are suppost to go for ice cream, why is my life sort of normal. I don't dress like a hooker, I would not disgrace my wife. I have gone this summer to a conference in Tenn. for a wk dressed all the time. I had more women that came to me and told me i look very good and ask me all kinds of question. I answered to the best of my abilty. Also went to a confrence in Orlando and had the same time of my life. Only this time it was the men that came to me with question. Let me say that if u put your self out there with a negative mind set ,your going to get more heat. I had a few years back went to a collage in our area and talked with students in a human relation class's. I was well received. I will continue to go out as Josephine, if I run into a fool or a person that is looking to make them self feel normal, SO WHAT. I friend of mine another C Dis living her whole life as a women, she even works in Wal-Mart so go figure. Jo

Leslie Langford

08-21-2016, 06:15 PM

It will never be accepted as a social norm. Ever...

Nor will wearing burqas, chadors, niqabs or hijabs likely be widely accepted in much of the Western world as that also goes against entrenched cultural norms there, but that fact doesn't stop Muslim women from continuing to try to exert their rights and freedoms to do so in those countries...

Never say "never". Even the Berlin Wall eventually came down, along with the fall of monolithic Communism. Who'd-a-thunk that back at the height of the Cold War? That and "Red" China one day supplying virtually all of the world's low-, mid-, and high-tech manufactured goods as is now the case...

ChristinaK

08-21-2016, 06:17 PM

We represent about 0.5% of the population. Gays are much more accepted in business as they can blend in. We are such a minute part of the human equation that most people cannot and will not choose to comprehend us.

If we are to gain a foothold, it must not come through interviews, which we would surely not pass, but through the workplace after being hired.

If you want retail women's fashions, fine. If you want to be an instructor in CA in Sociology, that's points for you. If you want to be a cosmetologist, that's great. If you want to be in management in 99% of American companies, doh! Don't pass GO, go directly to jail.

The way to do it is through subversion, just like the commies of yesterday! Sorry, I got carried away. Once you're hired and have passed probation, then come out. In my experience, the company goes bezonkers, then decides that a lawsuit will be forthcoming. In such a case, you will be career limited, but accepted as they don't want a lawsuit and the stigma of being transphobic!

You will face the effects of being shunned by some, but by others will be accepted with smiles. I have received emails stating that the TG will not be ostracized or litigation will result with resultant termination of employment. Does that create an atmosphere of comradery, or fear of you?

Forrest Gump said it most eloquently, "Life is like a box of chocolates, it gets sticky and gooey when it gets hot." I said that correctly, didn't I?

Sorry girls, we have a long way to go and many will fall in the better good of the masses.

Rhian

08-21-2016, 06:29 PM

We need people in well respected positions within society to come out such as doctors, teachers, CEOs, politicians and police officers so that the general public begin to see that people across all walks of life crossdress and not just creeps and weirdos. When will this happen? I suspect not for many years as anyone outing themselves would face ridicule and would likely see their career suffer.

Michelle_G

08-21-2016, 08:28 PM

Just Do It! Some people may never fully accept it but the more they see it in public the less of a shock it will be to them. We should never shove it down peoples throats though; we don't like it when others do that to us.

Tracii G

08-21-2016, 08:43 PM

TrishaTX

08-21-2016, 08:56 PM

aint gonna happen anytime soon, that said it is such better than it was. so, keep on keeping on, be yourself and hope for the best..yes all sayings I agree.I just don't see how anything will change dramatically anytime soon.

ReineD

08-22-2016, 03:27 AM

But there has to be some way.. Sometimes I feel it depends on how we carry ourselves.

I agree with Jennifer. It will be accepted as the social norm when it IS the statistical norm. In other words, everyone would need to have 2 or 3 TGs living on their street, they'd need to see them working in the grocery stores, retail stores, restaurants and banks they frequent, they'd need to work alongside a few, who all dress openly. But there simply aren't that many TGs. I don't think that a TG's walk, talk, or fashion choice has anything to do with it. Unless the TG has transitioned, the TG will be read as a male no matter the presentation. That said, I do agree the worst thing you can do is adopt fake female mannerisms like a falsetto voice or a wiggle. People with fake mannerisms don't inspire confidence.

Still, people are tolerant. Compare the way it is for TGs who go out in public today to how it was during the 1970s-80s and prior. The vast majority of people you will encounter today will not react negatively towards you. You're barely a blip on their radar.

If you want to come out at work, some members have done this successfully. Major companies have progressive transgender policies. You can always start a thread to ask how to come out at work. Do you work for a company that has a HR department?

And no, not all TG teens in high schools get suspended in the US. In fact, many are supported.

Kate Simmons

08-22-2016, 04:31 AM

Other than working on getting accepted individually, not much short of being an activist. That doesn't usually work as folks don't like to have things shoved down their throats.In my own personal case I just did things on my own. Early on after coming out I joined a TG Org. Later, even that moved too slow so I went out on my own to make friends and socialize as my femme self. I'm planning now on joining a mainstream church as my femme self. This particular denomination claims to be accepting of LGBTQ folks. We'll see, New adventure for myself in any case. One step at a time.:battingeyelashes::)

Georgina

08-22-2016, 06:08 AM

Always dress stylish, ditch the funny voice and walk, use make up if you wish but remain a man.

mykell

08-22-2016, 07:15 AM

.................................................. .If you want CDing to be more accepted, then the path is clear. A LOT of you need to come out, and you need to start living your lives in the open. Stop hiding that you're a crossdresser. Show people that you're not a problem. Go out and live your lives. If you're constantly waiting for more people to accept it before you do that, you'll be waiting forever.

so mainly that - statistically some one on my block has a box of womens things hidden in theyre garage or crawlspace, someone on my block has not told theyre wife, children or friends about theyre pleasure for fashion, someone on my block has went out dressed as a women and interacted with perfect strangers without a care and made some relationships while doing so, someone on my block has gone out shopping and brought something nice for the mrs. that was really for themselves.....

some how some under the umbrella think that they are more normal or truthful than others, some disparage those not like themselves......thus divides are formed....

before you jump down my throat and put words in it.......i get it, im guilty of some of these things as i type this.....

i had a thread awhile ago about what one does as a trans ally...... 5-6 replies ??? i think most here do more than they might realize in just little simple everyday tasks.

everytime we admit a purchase is indeed for ourselves, everytime we step out into the wild dressed as we wish to whether we pass, have a beard, look like a hooker, (had my debutante period for a while but was private with it) or somewhere in the middle, Prince, boy george, steven tyler say or those with an androgynous looks, we are talking steps to be more socially norm.

it will happen even if at a snails pace, since coming here ive learned much and share as much as possible while living in established parameters between my Mrs. and when in uncomfortable conversations stick up for myself while not outing myself, many time using "we have a trans person in our family" regularly without telling that person is me.....and when said the conversation assuredly takes a turn and i have never been pressed to answer who...

so i think we all advocate in little ways and take baby steps while here, just look at all the "first time" threads, or the "i just did it" ones and if anyone would like to use my "we have a trans person in our family" phrase feel free...its fun seeing the person who was disparaging the community squirm out of the conversation and i feel good doing it....

so once we realize that indeed we are as normal as say furies, trekkies, comic-cons, B&D, cival war re-en-actors, or whatever sub-set of culture you see WE will have to go into the daylight of the sun to do it......we are our worst enemies if you think about it objectively.

NancySue

08-22-2016, 09:04 AM

In one word...NEVER ! At least in this and nearby states. It's simply not and never will be viewed as a "social norm". I believe there are many, many more of us out there than the statistics indicate. We will never know accurate statistics because we range from closets, sabbaticals, partial to full, etc. I do think the way society is becoming less structured (Anything Goes), the toleration level will rise, but more from indifference than acceptance. We'll just to keep following our stars, which is fine with me. 👗👠💄👙👜👄😊

Heisthebride

08-22-2016, 10:37 AM

I work at a Fortune 10 company in the IT department. In the last 5 years I have seen one male to female transition accepted by the company and supported by HR. Just this year an intern has been hired who will present most days as female but occasionally as male.

IT, at least where I work is largely republican yet due to HR support the person transitioning was accepted and has been promoted through the company. This goes a long way as support is necessary for something to come to the mainstream. The thing I notice about the new intern is how accepted they are within the larger group of interns. Youth is the next hope for acceptance. With so many young people who see more and more transgendered people and hear about it in the news the more accepted it's becoming.

I have hope that this will be accepted behavior. Maybe not in my lifetime, but the future looks bright.

I think will go for cross dressing as well.

Meghan4now

08-22-2016, 11:22 AM

If it becomes a statistical norm, it will no longer be crossdressing technically. It will be just normal dressing. Like women wearing trousers. Used to be Man's wear, now it is not. Dresses, skirts and makeup would not be women's (only) wear, and therefore one would not be wearing the garb of another gender.

So, from a mathematical standpoint, by definition, impossible for crossdressing to be a norm.

Stephanie47

08-22-2016, 11:41 AM

There's two issues going on here. The OP is discussing "crossdressing" and not just the concept of a male body adorned in women's clothing. There seems to be wide acceptance by society that there are men and women "trapped" or "born into" the wrong body. That is a medical/psychological issue. Crossdressing? Trying to convey to the general public that there are men who enjoy not just wearing women's clothing, but, emulating a woman without wishing to transition really seems a little out there. If a crossdressing man cannot explain the "why" he does it, how can society in general understand? So, George shows up Monday in a dress shirt, slacks, tie, shined shoes. Then, on Tuesday Georgette shows up in a dress, hosiery, heels, bra, panty, slip and makeup, and, a wig if he does not have a full mane of hair.

In Washington State transsexuals and "gender expression" are covered by law. Basically, George may show up as Georgette anytime, and, go anywhere and be protected from harassment. That's a hate crime. I have not heard in the liberal area I live and worked in of any crossdressing male going to work as his female counterpart. Undergoing transitioning? Yes.

How can crossdressing become the norm when it is not presented by crossdressers. Going to a club at night is not going to generate a lot of exposure to the issue. Even the bathroom law bills seem to only bring up transsexual issues, and, not crossdressing issues.

I think until why a male wants emulate a woman without transitioning to a woman can be figured out, there is little hope. Tolerance does not equal acceptance.

Tamara Croft

08-22-2016, 11:44 AM

It will never be accepted as a social norm. Ever.

That's the wrong attitude to have, never say never, you won't be around forever... so you don't know!

It will be more accepted, when more of you come out of that closet and go out... maybe do what we did and go burn your bras :eek: OMG... or panties? no? lol :D

ReineD

08-22-2016, 03:57 PM

If it becomes a statistical norm, it will no longer be crossdressing technically. It will be just normal dressing. Like women wearing trousers.

You're right. I should have said, "statistically more robust". It will never be a statistical norm because most men simply are not interested in doing this.

Pattie

08-22-2016, 04:27 PM

The GG,s already have it their way nobody looks twice at a girl or woman dressed in levi jeans and western boots with a flannel shirt and a western hat. am I right on this or not?

Meghan4now

08-22-2016, 04:58 PM

Pattie, of course, and that's the point. Women are NOT crossdressing by wearing jeans!!!!! That is Normal wear. If 51% of guys wore dresses and skirts as an everyday thing, then it also would not be crossdressing, but just something that guys like to do.

And now that I think about, do I really want all the other guys dressing up. Heck, I am having enough competition looking good within the small population that already does! Forget that, I'm special dang it. Don't try to take that away from me!

Bruce64

08-22-2016, 05:02 PM

We can start a Men in Pantyhose Month say in January.
For February we already have international Crossdressing Month
For March we do Men in Bras Month
April Men in Thights Month

You follow

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August for sure Skirt Month

drEdge

08-22-2016, 05:22 PM

We should perpetuate the idea that it's normal for a man to dress in girl's clothes. Back in the 1800s little boys wore dresses all the time! It was only relatively recently that it became such a taboo!! I mean wearing dresses makes more sense for us guys dunnit? Less constricting down there...

Alice Torn

08-22-2016, 05:31 PM

In some large cities, and a few smaller ones, it is fairly tolerated. In small towns and farming areas, NOT. Fear is the biggest hurdle to going out in public. IF I AM UP TO IT, I plan on going out tomorrow late afternoon/ evening, for the first time in two months to walk around Northern Illinois University park, then go to Dekalb Illinois municipal band's final concert in the park, as it is not hot and humid now. I know it is an older crowd there, and I am odd being the only super tall loner woman there. I just block out the fears, and concentrate on the band and music. It is a liberal university area, too.

I Am Paula

08-22-2016, 07:03 PM

Just please don't think that LBGT advocacy groups, or the TS community is ignoring you. Right now we TS are getting our rights pulled out from under us, and a getting our asses kicked. Those of us who have no choice will fight for our side first. Good luck in your quest, but right now is probably the worst time in history to bring it up. Five years ago you would have had to face some narrow minded people. Now, you'll have whole states trying to legislate you out of existence.
Wether you have temporarily inhabited a man's body, and have set that right, or you are a man who enjoys presenting as a woman, we are now the enemy, and one election will not change that.

sometimes_miss

08-22-2016, 11:14 PM

There seems to be wide acceptance by society that there are men and women "trapped" or "born into" the wrong body.
Wide acceptance is really stretching it. Barely tolerating it, seems closer to the truth, and there are a whole lot of people out there that don't believe in it at all.

Crossdressing? Trying to convey to the general public that there are men who enjoy not just wearing women's clothing, but, emulating a woman without wishing to transition really seems a little out there.
Way, way out there.

If a crossdressing man cannot explain the "why" he does it, how can society in general understand?<snip>I think until why a male wants emulate a woman without transitioning to a woman can be figured out, there is little hope.
When we cannot explain it, the person who's observing it will come up with an explanation on their own, and it is NOT going to be the explanation you want them to come up with: They are going to assume that you are either gay or transsexual, and are simply in denial.

Like it or not, most women's clothing is designed to accentuate the female form; the female form has been developed by evolution to attract men, in order to enhance procreation. So.....what we're doing, whether we want to acknowledge it or not, is something that is designed to sexually attract men. That said, non-crossdressing men will not do it, and normal women will not be attracted to it, rather, it will be something that most often makes them actively turned off to us, in the same way that a straight woman is turned off at the thought of having sex with another woman, or a straight man is turned off by the thought of having sex with another man.

So it's not going to be considered a 'normal' behavior any time soon, if ever. It might be tolerated, the same way that someone who chooses to wear a clown costume every day as his chosen attire might; but we'll still be seen as eccentric at best, bizarre at worst. But it won't be celebrated.

Georgette_USA

08-22-2016, 11:30 PM

Just please don't think that LBGT advocacy groups, or the TS community is ignoring you. Right now we TS are getting our rights pulled out from under us, and a getting our asses kicked.

So, George shows up Monday in a dress shirt, slacks, tie, shined shoes. Then, on Tuesday Georgette shows up in a dress, hosiery, heels, bra, panty, slip and makeup, and, a wig if he does not have a full mane of hair.
Undergoing transitioning? Yes.

Compare the way it is for TGs who go out in public today to how it was during the 1970s-80s and prior.

I think we have two different arguments. CD acceptance and TG/TS acceptance.

I think the acceptance of CDs is way different. Not all places accept TG/TS even now. Even in states with laws. Some will use other arguments for not employing TG/TS, or letting them go. I can't see many places accepting a CD that changes back and forth. If one wants to fully present as a woman, it would be similar to a TG/TS.

Yes thing were different back in the 70-80s, few people ever heard of TG/TS or understood what that was. Of the older people here, how many knew or had any interaction with a TG/TS back then. I had to educate my employer and the military on what it entailed. I was lucky that they both accepted me, plus the some 100-200 people that I worked with. I held a Top Secret security clearance and they had NO problem with it as I was totally out to them. Other than work few if any even thought of TG/TS as it was very uncommon, plus I did a pretty good job of being stealth, including men in a sexual situation after SRS.

I was the George/Georgette, had to wear pants in my job though, but did have my own longer hair. But I NEVER went back to George once it was approved, in fact I made the leap of faith and had my name legally changed before coming out.

Krisi

08-23-2016, 07:55 AM

GretchenJ

08-23-2016, 08:14 AM

Nor will wearing burqas, chadors, niqabs or hijabs likely be widely accepted in much of the Western world as that also goes against entrenched cultural norms there, but that fact doesn't stop Muslim women from continuing to try to exert their rights and freedoms to do so in those countries...

i remember people saying the same thing about interracial relationships, a child raised by two dads or two moms, metrosexuals, and men wearing earrings. The more it becomes acclimated into society like the other items, and the more it is proven that it does not infringe on others to live their lives without issues, then it will slowly garner some form of acceptance. (But not necessarily approval by all)

adrienner99

08-23-2016, 09:08 AM

The question is not just, "What do we do to get crossdressing accepted?" It's "How can crossdressers get to the point where they don't care if they are accepted or not?"

mykell

08-23-2016, 03:20 PM

What can we do to get Crossdressing accepted as a social Norm?

Did anyone read the thread title? For those who did not, I reposted it here. The thread talks about crossdressers, not transsexuals or gay and lesbians. It's about males (like me and most others here ) who wear fake boobs, fake butts and fake hair along with women's clothing and accessories and pretend they are women just for fun.

It's possible that crossdressing will become more tolerated, especially by businesses (like Target) who want our money, but it will never be accepted as a social Norm. Never. No more than wearing a furry suit and fake tail and pretending to be a beaver.

its most certainly not about males like you, almost everyone who responded had constructive thoughts to move things forward and some ways to do that, not the negative hyperbole you spew out with regularity. as you may have seen in quite a few posts not everyone who dresses identifies as "Male" i would be one, some are bi or gay or have not yet accepted they are transsexual........since you re-posted the question, "what can you (we/Krisi) do to get crossdressing to be accepting as a social norm", you still haven't answered that....

Louise DK

08-23-2016, 03:53 PM

Crossdressing makes little sense, if any at all. And furthermore movies and media in general, still portraits the crossdresser/transvestite as being gay, wich we all know most is'nt. That creates an image in people minds, of us fishing for men, or even worse being a gross sexual deviant.
So I belive the general population has the wrong picture of us in the first place.
If you want acceptance, you have to get out in public, and interact with people, dress appropriate, and be kind and answers their questions if they have any.
Even then, most people will think it's wierd, because it is wierd. But when they realize that we are harmless, and that we are not pedofiles, and whatever else they vould think of us. Then maby they will think "whatever". Thats probably the best we kan hope for.
And to me that would be good enough.

Thats how I think about it.

Louise.

TaniaR

08-23-2016, 04:16 PM

BettyMorgan

08-23-2016, 10:54 PM

As Louise said above, crossdressing makes little sense. But then again, I can't explain why I like avocado or why I like the colour blue. In fact, I probably couldn't properly explain why I'm attracted to women. So it doesn't surprise me that crossdressing is something I can't explain or as some people think, makes little sense. Why the hell would I wear a white chiffon flowered dress and walk around Las Vegas this weekend if it wasn't something I needed to do? I can't explain it but does that mean it makes no sense?

I know that we need to be seen, we need to talk outside of this forum or CD social groups. Education is so important and I know that an open and diverse youth will lead the way in changing attitudes. Fear will eventually be overcome by love and people will wear what they want.

suzanne

08-24-2016, 01:44 AM

We are now where gay and lesbian people were some thirty years ago. Always a minority (estimates of homosexual prevalence run no higher than 10% of the general population, and usually lower), they realized they could never win equal rights referenda without support from the rest of the population. Their solution was to be OUT and visible as much as possible. That way, more people would learn three things. First, that they too know someone, like a close friend or family member, who is gay or lesbian. Second, that this gay person they know is a REAL HUMAN BEING, not some exaggerated monster caricature. And that, third, aside from who they sleep with, gays and lesbians are pretty much the same as the rest of us in all other respects. And that nothing bad happens when you extend to them the rights enjoyed by the majority.

So, more than just a personal statement that an individual refuses to hide any longer, outing oneself became political statement. It took a long time to develop the critical mass of support, and the campaign has not yet reached its goal, but progress is undeniable.

How do we duplicate that success? Get out there. In your dresses. Do regular things. In your dresses. Act the same way wearing your dress that you do in drab. Be seen. Be noticed. Dress your best but don't worry if you don't pass. The muggles need to see that, aside from your taste in clothes, you're no different from them. I might even go so far as to say that when we "pass" we disappear from view and lose opportunities to change a muggle's mind.

It's a long, slow process, but progress is already being made. We can now clothes shopping pretty much anywhere. Violent negative reactions are now rare. Law enforcement officers treat us the same as anyone else. In fact, the biggest barriers come from within us. We are just now learning to overthrow the conditioning we received since infancy. This too is addressed by just getting out there. In your dress. You learn at the same time you teach others.

TaniaR

08-24-2016, 06:26 AM

Dear CorsetsnPetticoats,

I don't live in the US so I don't understand all the changes enacted by the 'Bathroom Bill'. Your summary though is quite clear and disheartening to read when it seems that previously there was a much more legally tolerant position.

I'd just suggest we might not see enough acceptance as we'd like in our lifetimes. However, historical precedent shows that humanity has the capacity to change albeit at its own unique pace....slavery is significantly less prevalent than 300 years ago, for example; racism is being challenged and reduces....even though 'humanity' still has some way to go there, I'd suggest.

If we don't continue the pressure on society's current 'norms' to evolve then - let's all burn our bra's ...for all the wrong reasons. I don't think I will be accepted for who I know and feel I am in my lifetime but I do believe I am better off than if I had been born 100 years ago.

So I'd not only acknowledge what we have at the moment but also continue to take incremental steps, hopefully through logic, persuasion, emotional empathy and sensitivity as well as wearing our bras, dresses, skirts and stockings 'normally' so that one day it won't matter at all if you want to wear a dress, bra and knickers along with your "abdominal protector" - I think we all know what I mean.

We are winning I believe, so do keep going.
It might be a bit damp in your world today but being a wet blanket - no, I don't believe so.

Tania
PS ...any chance of some recommendations for a 'good' corset in the meantime? :)

Desiree2bababe

08-24-2016, 07:21 AM

I am leaning towards the thought that if it were the norm, all the fun and excitement would vanish.

MichelleDevon

08-24-2016, 07:34 AM

I am leaning towards the thought that if it were the norm, all the fun and excitement would vanish.

No chance, Desiree. We would just be able to do it more often and have more fun and more excitement.

Michelle
xxx

mechamoose

08-24-2016, 07:42 AM

Yah, corporateland is kind of staid.

Dressing cross-gendered is visually disruptive. Even for a totally in-the-flow person like myself I miss a step when meeting one of us. Not because it is bad, but because it is unusual.

That is partly why I try and present in the way that I do.. it should not cause that kind of bump.

In a company, if I am in a client facing role, I *can't* present. That personal bump I'm willing to endure now shows up as a company rep.

It is a bias, plain and simple. Used to be that skin color could cause this kind of 'bump'. We have miles to cross and minds to change.

-K/M

Rogina B

08-24-2016, 08:59 PM

If you want CDing to be more accepted, then the path is clear. A LOT of you need to come out, and you need to start living your lives in the open.
Yes...My feelings exactly. Own it and live it.

LexiNexi

08-24-2016, 09:44 PM

I think the GL crow will lead the way on Tele, ads and media and out in public, then as people don't blink twice, the TG will be more accepted like GL was at first. The TV crowd will walk on the trains of the TS crowd with a slightly delayed arrival. Watch out for confirmation bias when trying to see a change...

Mirya

08-24-2016, 09:54 PM

Short answer: Never. Not even in 1,000 years.

Long answer: Think about the other marginalized social groups in the last 100 years. Women didn't even have the right to vote 100 years ago. The Civil Rights movement in the USA was only about 50 years ago. Gays and lesbians after that. And now the fight for transgender (but really, transsexual) rights.

The common thread between all these movements was/is visibility. People who were a part of these marginalized groups put themselves out in the public eye. They laid bare their real names, real reputations, careers, and families to fight for acceptance and legal rights. I'm sorry, but I don't see crossdressers ever doing that. So many CDs can't even leave their house! :) And even for the ones who do go out - are they willing to risk everything, as women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals have done? Are CDs willing to proudly and publicly declare their existence, baring their entire lives to the public, as individuals in other marginalized groups have done? How many women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals sacrificed blood in order to fight for their rights? How many of them were willing to sacrifice their very lives?

Now ask yourself, how many CDs would be willing to do the same thing? And that's why CDs will always be relegated to the fringes of society. For another 1,000 years or more... which is sad. But that's what I see.

sometimes_miss

08-24-2016, 11:32 PM

I feel it may have to be worked on and change effected gradually. One aspect of enabling acceptability might be that clothing could be considered and made to be more and more non gender specific - by designers consciously making clothes which attract all genders to wear them.
You forget, that for most of us, the whole point of wearing the clothes is because they are female specific. time and time again, few crossdressers want feminine clothes that are marketed and designed for a male.

The common thread between all these movements was/is visibility. People who were a part of these marginalized groups put themselves out in the public eye. They laid bare their real names, real reputations, careers, and families to fight for acceptance and legal rights. I'm sorry, but I don't see crossdressers ever doing that. So many CDs can't even leave their house! :) And even for the ones who do go out - are they willing to risk everything, as women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals have done? Are CDs willing to proudly and publicly declare their existence, baring their entire lives to the public, as individuals in other marginalized groups have done? How many women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals sacrificed blood in order to fight for their rights? How many of them were willing to sacrifice their very lives? Now ask yourself, how many CDs would be willing to do the same thing? And that's why CDs will always be relegated to the fringes of society. For another 1,000 years or more... which is sad. But that's what I see.

You're forgetting something. Other than transsexuals, who are clearly still NOT considered normal and accepted by a whole lot of society, the rest of those marginalized groups didn't 'risk everything'. They had at least some type of support; any woman who was even remotely physically attractive got dates, blacks dated blacks, gays had other gay guys to date, and lesbians had other lesbians to date, they all had a large pool of potential spouses. We however, have no one. Once we come out, most of us have none at all. Even the ones here who are still married, only a fraction have wives who are supportive of it. Women, blacks, gays, lesbians still have a large potential pool of mates. We have none. After spending my first 20 years alone, I'm not willing to doom myself to the rest of my lifetime in some self imposed isolation from love just for 'the cause', and I certainly can't see someone who's under twenty volunteering for a lifetime of isolation, either.

When you can find a willing and eager population of women that will date us, then it may change. But not until. Because for most of us, dating a guy isn't an option.

Lorileah

08-24-2016, 11:40 PM

wait...is this about getting dates? I thought it was about acceptance. If it's about getting dates then WHEN the crossdressers get out and get seen and get acceptance, the dates will follow (sorta like interracial dating and gay marriage)

Zooey

08-25-2016, 12:04 AM

Well, if people didn't want to date them, then it wouldn't be easy, you see... It has to be easy.

Remind me to tell all of you about my dating life.

paranoidfish

08-25-2016, 09:13 PM

I like the term 'visually disruptive'. I don't often get comments these days but my standard response to 'OMG why are you wearing girls clothes' was always 'they're not a girls, they're mine'. This stumped a shocking amount of people! If women can wear jeans I can wear a skirt :)

Krisi

08-26-2016, 09:11 AM

its most certainly not about males like you, almost everyone who responded had constructive thoughts to move things forward and some ways to do that, not the negative hyperbole you spew out with regularity. as you may have seen in quite a few posts not everyone who dresses identifies as "Male" i would be one, some are bi or gay or have not yet accepted they are transsexual........since you re-posted the question, "what can you (we/Krisi) do to get crossdressing to be accepting as a social norm", you still haven't answered that....

Again, you misread the original question. It's about crossdressing, not TS, TG, Gay or whatever. That would be a different subject in a different thread. It helps greatly if you understand the question before you post an answer.

Now to ignore the above and answer the original question directly. Are we talking about men simply wearing clothes designed and marketed for women or are we talking about men wearing wigs, makeup, feminine earrings, breast forms and padded panties? There is a big difference.

It is possible that some day it might be acceptable for men to wear skirts and blouses and/or dresses. Not likely, but it's possible. Of course it would no longer be "crossdressing" it would be normal or "stylish". After all, fashions change and women wearing pants are not considered crossdressers.

Do I think it will ever become accepted for men to wear wigs, makeup, feminine earrings, breast forms and padded panties to work and in social situations? Nope, I do not. And what can we do to make it acceptable? Nothing.

Alice Torn

08-26-2016, 10:01 AM

Paranoid fish, Great comeback! I hope i will recall that answer, if i am ever asked why i am wearing women's clothes!! i agree with most all the answers here, and, i am afraid things will not change very much, for crossdressers. A bit more tolerance, but little aceptance, and we will always be considered very odd. and eccentric.

ReineD

08-26-2016, 04:57 PM

The common thread between all these movements was/is visibility. People who were a part of these marginalized groups put themselves out in the public eye. They laid bare their real names, real reputations, careers, and families to fight for acceptance and legal rights. I'm sorry, but I don't see crossdressers ever doing that. So many CDs can't even leave their house! :) And even for the ones who do go out - are they willing to risk everything, as women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals have done? Are CDs willing to proudly and publicly declare their existence, baring their entire lives to the public, as individuals in other marginalized groups have done? How many women, blacks, gays, lesbians, and transsexuals sacrificed blood in order to fight for their rights? How many of them were willing to sacrifice their very lives?

Even if they did, Mirya, there aren't enough crossdressers. Women during the suffrage movement? Fifty percent of the population stood to benefit. The civil rights movement? A whopping twelve percent of the US population is black. Both these groups are not only visible, they cross our paths every day.

The gay-rights movement? LGB demographics in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States) is about 3.5%. Now we're getting down to very few people but still, 3.5% is enough to be on people's radars. This means that one of every 30 people is L, G, or B and so the chances there are extended families that have one LGB member are favorable. But "T"s account for less than one percent of the population (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States), one third of one percent specifically, which is one out of every 3,333 individuals.

So because statistically there are very few people who are not comfortable in the gender assigned at birth, no matter how visible they are, they cannot be compared to the numbers of people involved in the suffrage, civil rights, or even gay-rights movements.

Some people may argue that there are many more crossdressers than transsexuals and if all the CDers came out, the overall "T" demographics would be more robust. But the difficulty here is that by definition, crossdressers don't dress for identity reasons. They identify as men and they dress for leisure. And it is difficult to convince society that dressing for leisure is serious.

Teresa

08-26-2016, 05:40 PM

Reine,
I'm not sure if I would say some of us dress for leisure, if that were the case it's possible I wouldn't be doing it and certainly not to go through the anguish and pain for myself and my family.
I have to admit now I do enjoy it and I confessed that to my wife but it's taken many painful years to get to this point, I know this doesn't apply to all and some do have it as an enjoyable hobby that the may share with their partner. When I do talk to people about I explain it's some thing I was born with and it's an inner need that I have to satisfy , I also admit that I prefer to look like Teresa than the man behind her, but it's not out of it being a leisure activity.

Mirya

08-26-2016, 05:46 PM

Some people may argue that there are many more crossdressers than transsexuals and if all the CDers came out, the overall "T" demographics would be more robust. But the difficulty here is that by definition, crossdressers don't dress for identity reasons. They identify as men and they dress for leisure. And it is difficult to convince society that dressing for leisure is serious.

Yes, I also think that if more CDs came out, everyone under the TG umbrella would benefit in some way. And yes, there are many more CDs than TS, so it sometimes frustrates me that more CDs are not helping the movement by being more out in the open.

And why not? Is it really because it's just a "leisure" activity? I don't know about you, but most of the CDs and other part-timers I've spoken to give me the distinct impression that their dressing isn't simply some sort of hobby. It's not like other leisure activities that they can just give up at any time. CDs keep telling me that it's an inseparable, lifelong part of who they are. And if that's the case, isn't that something worth fighting for? Or at the very least, being out in the open about it?

mykell

08-26-2016, 05:49 PM

reine we because of how we hide are an immeasurable part of society, i think the numbers have been upped to show .6 percent in a recent NCTE e-mail but being the secretive society we are only works against ourselves, and as i said earlier i am guilty of this as well......but if we all donned our preferred clothing on a date and time worked out ahead at the exact same time and did our usual daily chores and functions i think we would surely surprise how many more of us their are, just my thoughts on this number.

Krisi, :eek: :bonk: :censor: :strugglin :wall:

Vickie_CDTV

08-26-2016, 08:13 PM

The point about "dates" is actually a good one. There are very few women who are attracted to men who are straight and open and publicly "non gender conforming". Most "non gender conforming" men, like the general population, are straight and like all straight men need women. Alienating potential partners (and living a lonely life without love) is one heck of a good reason to not be open and public with one's "gender nonconformity". I really wouldn't underestimate that. No one wants to be lonely (take it from someone who has been alone most of their life), it is emotionally (and physically) painful in a way those who have not experienced that kind of deprivation just can't understand.

ReineD

08-26-2016, 10:42 PM

And why not? Is it really because it's just a "leisure" activity? I don't know about you, but most of the CDs and other part-timers I've spoken to give me the distinct impression that their dressing isn't simply some sort of hobby.

Google "crossdresser". There were 48 million results when I did it. After the first few google pages, it's all about fetish and dating sites. I can't believe that the majority of the crossdressers who go to these sites would want to be public about their affinity for big boobs, lingerie, and posting suggestive pictures on meet-up sites.

How many people participate regularly in this forum's discussions. A few hundred maybe from around the world, a world that has in excess of 7 billion people? The majority of crossdressers on this planet aren't members here. They don't want to be, they just want to dress for fun. My SO and I belong to a TG support group in a city that has nearly 3 million people. There are about 30 regular members. Thirty! And this is going out to a safe place with a changing room on the premises for the CDers who don't want to leave their homes dressed! Thirty people out of three million, in a city where it is easy to find the group for anyone who has a cell phone!

I understand what you're saying about the people you know. But please remember that just because like-minded individuals have a tendency to find each other to hang out with, this doesn't mean they represent the majority. I'm sorry.

Lorileah

08-27-2016, 01:03 AM

Are we talking about men simply wearing clothes designed and marketed for women or are we talking about men wearing wigs, makeup, feminine earrings, breast forms and padded panties?

^ pretty much the standard definition of crossdressing. They both are correct

And those that choose to do nothing deserve, nothing. You know if everyone who has been shunned or marginalized in life followed your advice we would still be under the rule of Monarchs and Despots. Being in the closet won't gain yu acceptance, in fact it reinforces the negativity associated with the community. If you are ashamed of yourself,m then everyone else will be ashamed of you also.

and like all straight men need women. Wait, again, what??? Need women or WANT women A couple words in that sentence make it false. "All" and "need" My neighbor has no problem being straight (overtly) and sans woman. And since I married a woman and had a long term relationship with another, the other part of that is false.

Teresa

08-27-2016, 06:47 AM

Reine,
I'm not sure of the population catchment area but at my first social meeting there were 45-50 people present, even on a quite evening we usually get 20 but often it's 25-30 some with partners.

I'm not sure what to make of your figures but as you say you can't blame them on a lack of facilities .

As for the numbers joining this or any other forum, I now how nervous I was when I clicked the join button so how many are hovering , still hesitating to join is difficult to say. As for the sites they may not wish to be public about again it would be interesting to know how many aren't members of the TG community ?

sarahcrossed

08-27-2016, 11:54 AM

It starts with ourselves. I feel like we are our own worst critics. At least i was, until recently. We cant just hide and expect people to to be ok with it. If you hide then that means you are ashamed. im not saying this to blast any one who is still in the closet or isnt comfortable leaving the house dressed.

When i came to terms with who i am(being non-binary/gender-fluid) , i still am, i realized that its all in my head. the fears of some one calling you out, and embarrassing you, will fade. Because it doesn't matter what other people think as long as we act normal and like its nothing out of the ordinary. Then i think we will begin to see acceptance, or at least some form of tolerance.

Teresa

08-27-2016, 01:13 PM

Sarah,
Your words are so true, I'm not ashamed of something I can't change and it doesn't matter what people think or do because that's not going to change me either. I also agree with you about acting normally, being dressed isn't an act so I don't try and change my voice and my actions are those of a person going about everyday living, the difference is I'm dressed as I prefer to be dressed .

EffyJaspers

08-28-2016, 01:29 AM

I'd say when only 20% of the population are disgusted by CDs is when we are accepted. I'd say we're at only 60% thinks we're disgusting. Any media attention simply would need to ease the disgust factor down. A man in a dress not being preposterous is the public view goal.
Acceptance in my thought case is just indifference towards CDs. I don't care if they are embracing it, they just need to not care about my dressing style much.

Cassiek

08-28-2016, 01:49 AM

Funny part about whole subject is in early history we did wear women's clothes including heels and makeup Let's hope one day like most other fashion trends it will come around again in full circle and be accepted again. Only problem is this great forum may be obsolete and we'd never talk to each other and share our experiences.

Leslie Langford

08-28-2016, 02:14 PM

Even if they did, Mirya, there aren't enough crossdressers. Women during the suffrage movement? Fifty percent of the population stood to benefit. The civil rights movement? A whopping twelve percent of the US population is black. Both these groups are not only visible, they cross our paths every day...

Yes, a very logical, rational explanation to this fundamentally vexing question. Unfortunately, logic and reason often don't enter into the equation.

Funny, when it comes to "religious freedom" to justify discriminating against us or curtailing our rights - or even the current frenzy around the various already enacted and pending "Bathroom Bills" in the U.S. - our miniscule numbers and the unlikely odds of the average "muggle" ever encountering one of us in the wild seem to carry no weight.

To hear the politicians and their rabid adherents who champion these bills tell it, we are literally the "Barbarians at the Gate", Western civilization as we know it is in peril, and the Apocalypse is sure to follow if TG people are allowed to use the washrooms that conform to their true gender identity.

ReineD

08-29-2016, 02:07 AM

Yes, but Leslie, the battle doesn't really have anything to do with TGs using bathrooms. I agree, realistically the majority of people will never encounter a TG in any bathroom, but that's not what the handful of people who were protesting on city hall steps were afraid of. It's just one wedge issue among many others (immigrants, refugees, terrorism, guns, abortion, etc) that are used to polarize the US population.

This isn't the bathroom thread, so I'll post the rest of my response as a visitor message on your profile page. :)

Krisi

08-29-2016, 07:24 AM

.......... Being in the closet won't gain yu acceptance, in fact it reinforces the negativity associated with the community. If you are ashamed of yourself,m then everyone else will be ashamed of you also.

I'm not ashamed of my penis but that doesn't make it appropriate to prance around my neighborhood buck naked.

What you and some other folks seem to forget from time to time is that the term "crossdressing" encompasses a wide spectrum of males dressing as females. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you are a more or less "full time" crossdresser. You live and work dressed as a woman. Most of the members here are not in that situation. Some are coming to this forum to find out what size panties or bra they should be wearing. Others are asking how to hide their dressing from their wives or how to tell them about it without losing them. Many crossdressers here wear things like ballet outfits, wedding gowns or "hooker" outfits that most actual women would not wear in public.

Individual crossdresser's choices on being "out", in the closet or somewhere in between are based on their personal situations and it would be best if others would respect those decisions. There shouldn't be any implied ranking of the worth of an individual based on his willingness to expose his dressing to the outside world.

Maybe there should be two separate sections here, one for casual or part time dressers and one for serious and full time dressers.

mykell

08-29-2016, 01:14 PM

krisi you cant have it both ways….

these are your words,

What can we do to get Crossdressing accepted as a social Norm?

Did anyone read the thread title? For those who did not, I reposted it here. The thread talks about crossdressers, not transsexuals or gay and lesbians. It's about males (like me and most others here ) who wear fake boobs, fake butts and fake hair along with women's clothing and accessories and pretend they are women just for fun.

It's possible that crossdressing will become more tolerated, especially by businesses (like Target) who want our money, but it will never be accepted as a social Norm. Never. No more than wearing a furry suit and fake tail and pretending to be a beaver.

i have an unabridged version of this with your honest thoughts...

Quote Originally Posted by Krisi

The facts are, you can have breast implants, you can get a vagina, get your body hair removed and several other things done, but your internal organs will still be male and your DNA will still be male. You will still have a male build and size. These are facts, they cannot be changed. You can live as a woman and you can dream you are a woman but you are sill male medically and biologically.

Again, facts.

so if a gay man wears womens clothes he is crossdressing.
if a transgender person is wearing women's clothes they are crossdressing,
if a transsexual is wearing women's clothing they are crossdressing ???

male DNA right, folks have offered answers to the OPs original question.

so why are you so uptight they these folks are contributing to the conversation,

point out one post where someone has implied ranking of the worth of an individual based on his willingness to expose his dressing to the outside world. (your pronouns).

now as you stated above did you read the title and we did and contributed to the OPs question,

you however stated
And what can we do to make it acceptable? Nothing.
so it would seam you have nothing further to contribute to the conversation the OP started, and
Maybe there should be two separate sections here, one for casual or part time dressers and one for serious and full time dressers.

i thought we had that already.....the MtF section and a transsexual section.

lately i get the feeling from you that if were not a "male crossdresser" you dont like us and dont like being associated with us....

oh and lorileah is a women.... you know a “fulltime" crossdresser

ReineD

08-29-2016, 04:14 PM

I can see Krisi's point about the choice to come out vs staying closeted for Crossdressers.

At the same time, biology is separate from internal gender ID and although MtF transitioners fully feel female, are regarded as female by their peers, and transition to a female body as much as medical science will allow, they still cannot ovulate.

Mikell, back to your main point, transsexuals do not crossdress. They dress in a manner that reflects their gender identity. The OP's question is, "What can we do to get Crossdressing accepted as a social Norm?" and not "What can we do to get transsexualism accepted as a social Norm".

I think that Krisi was commenting on the fact there are many in this forum who believe that crossdressers need to dress for identity reasons and this is as dire for them as it is for a MtF transsexual who needs to live her life and be regarded by others as herself. I'd say that (some? many? most?) CDers want both: to have the ability to crossdress at will (bonus points if they can arrange to do so in public), all while not having it affect their male lives. Transsexuals do not want this, they don't want male lives. So it's up to each individual to establish a balance that is right for them and their own needs, without being made to feel guilty for not coming out to everyone in their life the way a transsexual must do when she transitions. Some CDers would like to be more out than they are, and these people hopefully will take steps to do so. But other CDers are quite happy with the way they've orchestrated their lives and they don't need to change.

This conversation would be different if it was in the TS section. Then there would be no question that everyone who transitions needs to be out.

CherylFlint

08-29-2016, 06:15 PM

At home I dress myself with critiquing from my wife.
When we go out she’s in charge of the outfit and makeup so I “pass”, and I must say she does a really good job.
When we’re out I don’t speak and just follow her lead.
She is fine with the arrangement and we’ve been married for over 20 years.
Sometimes she’ll dress me and then have her friend’s over, and even then I don’t speak.
It has worked very well and I wouldn’t want it any other way. If she’s not happy with the makeover we stay home or she’ll just tell me to dress “drab”.
Everyday is rather exciting. We have a spare bedroom where I keep all my stuff and she’ll layout what she wants me to wear that evening. Or not.
Anyway, the idea is to have fun.
Good luck.
Social norm? Don't hold your breath.

Lauri K

08-29-2016, 08:24 PM

Maybe there should be two separate sections here, one for casual or part time dressers and one for serious and full time dressers.

Maybe if you have nothing beneficial to add to the thread on this subject you just don't comment on it, everything you have said sounds like a broken record of sorts justifying all these "special situations" even to the point of you wanting to start another section on the forum for part time / casual dressers

Sophie Yang

08-29-2016, 10:29 PM

First off, this 'guy' thinks that it starts with self acceptance of ourselves first and foremost. If you cannot accept yourself, how can one expect others to accept you. If the bully picks on someone without any consequences, the bully continues to pick on them. Take spousal abuse as an example. Most us who are not in that kind of relationship say we would just get out. Those in that relationship see it as their fault and try harder to please, only to be disappointed again. Those who break the violence and seek help can find help. The switch from a victim mentality to one of self acceptance and self worth makes taking corrective action easier.

Early on when I started, I was talking with a cross dresser who participated in a gender panel discussion. There was one participant who was or had transitioned. I don't remember. What I do remember is that the cross dresser said that most of the questions were directed to her. Paraphrasing, she said the audience understood the need for one to align their physical body with their gender and the need to transition. The audience had a much harder time understanding why a guy would want to just dress up as a women. Being in the cross dresser camp, I thought that most of the questions would have gone to the one who transitioned. I guess it just depends on which camp you are in. Since the general public is in neither camp, I imagine how hard it is to get their heads around either one.

One of the biggest drivers of social change has been the US military. The integration of different racial groups, in particular, blacks, and now women in combat roles are two examples. Both of these did not happen over night, but happened a lot faster than most people ever thought possible. The new policy to allow transgender personnel to serve openly is policy, but still has a long way to go to implement. On a macro-level, the policy is official. On a micro level, it is difficult to over come years of institutionalized culture, history, and traditions on the micro level. A lot is riding on the out come of the next election.

Another, as others have mentioned, is one-on-one education. There are politicians who rail against some social issue, say gay rights. They rail until confronted with their own son or daughter comes out and then some change their tune dramatically.

This weekend I was out at two events, two different extremes. On Saturday, I was at a Luau/birthday garden party thrown by and for a woman who owns a transformation business. As part of the business, she also runs a bed and breakfast for her special girls and the public. Her place is a very safe place for the girls to hang out if they are not out and about.

There were about 20 people in attendance. I knew many of the girls there that night, but not all of them. There was a young couple there with their 8 month old daughter. They were staying at the bed and breakfast and attended the party. Last year there was a young lady, not one of her special girls, who came to the Luau and was also staying at the B and B. She worked in the wine industry as a chemist and was working her way up from California to Canada performing some tests at different sites. Everyone had a good time.

One of the girls at the party had just attended her 25th high school reunion. Initially she sent in her picture, but wasn't sure she could attend. The reunion organizers begged her to try and come. She ended up going, had a good time, and felt accepted. Pretty easy to win most changed award. Another gal, older I'd say mid 60's, retired postal worker, is also a poker player. She was playing a tournament and was knocked out in an early round. Some guys at the bar asked if they could ask a few question which turned into several hours of discussion. When it was all over, one of the guys said if I win, I am paying for your transition.

Another conversation at the party was from a couple. The wife said that once she realized that once she realized that she still wanted to be with her husband over any of her other friends, it was much easier for her to come out to her friends. Her husband who worked at Intel was going to come out at work in 2017, but decided to take the early retirement option instead in the latest round of layoffs. The couple made two interesting observations. Over the last three years that they have attended Esprit, the number of couples attending has grown a lot. This year they became mentors for two other couples.

In another conversation at our table was how to get younger girls to join our group. Most of the people in the group are 45+. The group often refers to themselves as T-Girls without any real meaning attached to the term. The wife of the couple works with a lot of young people and she said that many in the younger generation are some what offended by the T-Girl term. Something us old ladies never really considered.

On Sunday, I played in a golf scramble tournament. The tournament consisted of two guys, 3 gals, and 11 crossdressers. There were probably 5 golfers and 11 hackers. When the groups were gathering to tee off at 1:00, one of the course managers dropped by. He said the club was wondering if we were going to have our tournament this year or not. The group has played there for several years now. Last year was my first time and about 25-30 years since I had been on a golf course. Last year the group played twice. The manager said that the club always looked forward for the girls to play their tournament.

Each participant got a pink goodie bag which contained among other things a pink visor. I looked over at the two guys talking. One of them was my brother. Before teeing off, my brother and I went to the putting green. I asked him what they were taking about. He said the other guy would wear the pink visor if my brother did. Neither one wore their pink visor. Everyone who played had their own visor so they stayed in the bag. There was also a set of pink golf balls. My brother said he would not be hitting any pink golf balls. He is one of the serious ones and only plays with a particular brand. After everyone played, prizes were handed at the BBQ dinner. The other guy's team was 6 under so he got another pink bag for winning team. My brother got longest ball so he got another pink bag also. Even though the other guy made a big show about the pink bags, visor, and girly prices, he is accepting of the girls. He always bar tends all the holiday parties.

On the drive home, my brother said there were some stares out on the course and at the BBQ. Acceptance of cross dressing will be slow in coming, but it will come on the coat tails of other gender issues that get worked out. It will be way too slow for many in this group and way too fast for others, but it will come. It probably never become a main stream though.