X's and Y's what if ???

[anna kate]

Basic biology tells us about XX and XY. What if there are different degrees of X's and Y's ? If a man has higher degrees of X's than Y's, is it then possible for him to lean toward the feminine side, depending on how much or little of each ? That could explain the different degrees of CD etc. Just something that crossed my mind. How about some of the Biologists on here... I know this would go beyond my high school diploma, so I thought I'd ask.

[jennifer0918]

Remember, nature will always find a way.

[JenniferR771]

I seems unlikely. You get one chromosome from your mom and one from your father.
However--several complications can occur. Calico cats have different chromosomes in different parts of their body.

Other variations exist for example a chimera. Different genes in different parts of the body.

https://newrepublic.com/article/118725/venus-chimera-cat-explained-geneticist

[GBJoker]

Nevermind.

[Lorileah]

It's actually a part of my theory as to why there are more trans-peoples than before WW2.


It might be a good time to read up on transpeople before WWII. I don't think there are more now, but more "out". I doubt the numbers have increased as to "being" but more the ability to to talk about it with less repercussions. In the US the mood was more conservative and gays and transpeople were forced into hiding or had to live as straight in public. Also the economy made it difficult for LGBT people who were out to find and keep jobs. Even today we can't a good number because of the stigma still attached to being LGBT.

That said, there are things that have effected the genome. We know DES did and it is possible chemicals like Agent Orange did. Environmental hazards existed long before 1940 also, so maybe there have been changes.

The expression of many things depend on more than pair of chromosomes. X and Y was easy because it was quite noticeable even without gene sequencing to see. Getting deep into this there are 23 pairs of chromosomes. The XY or XX pair is one. There are also many combinations of such as alluded above (the calico gene for the colors orange and black are on the X and in order to get tri-color cats you need two X's, how ever you can have male calicos but they are XYX or XXY and thus sterile). Gene typing is early still and we know certain genes or combinations of genes can cause birth defects. (Ya all getting sleepy yet? This was actually a full semester class for me and I didn't even major in it). It would be nice to think the RR and WW would make only white red or pink peas but it doesn't. Gene expression is whole science in itself. I doubt most geneticists are freaking out, most are trying to manipulate the genes to stop disease and cancer. There are studies being done on transgenetics also, I think they are serious. But under stand when you are less than 1% of the population and being trans isn't a life or death syndrome medically (not talking social constructs or moral ethics...true medical), research is going to look for a cure for cancer instead. Which BTW they have found certain genes can be manipulated to cure or prevent that.

[chelyann]

there are more now after WW2 because there are more people on the planet

[sometimes_miss]

there are more now after WW2 because there are more people on the planet
Maybe not; perhaps all the ones in the closets just never got counted!

[anna kate]

Wow!!! Twenty-three pairs of chromosomes, in my mind that makes for a lot of variations. I'm going to stick with that, makes sense to me, a simple but complicated solution.
Thanks Lorileah,Jennifer and all, I feel like I've learned my lessons for today.

[I Am Paula]

My endocrinologist said it perfectly.
A few years ago, while I was being prescribed hormones, I asked if I should get tested to determine if there was a chromosome abnormality.
His response- Why, are you looking for something to blame?

[Mayo]

There are many factors that affect sexual development - not just chromosomes, but the environment in the womb as well as postnatally. There's a good article in Nature (http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943#/spectrum) that addresses some of the contributions, though by no means all. The article could easily be twice as long. Given that our sense of gender identity is probably significantly influenced by our social environment, the physiological contributions are only a small part of the picture but could easily predispose us to lean one way or the other. Neither sex or gender are binary.

[Teresa]

Paula,
I like that reply, maybe it's one reason I may not tell my mother !

Whatever factor you put it down to there is so much that can go slightly wrong in our makeup but as Lorileah says the percentage is so low and they would have so little to profit of it as there's no cure.

[Confucius]

"What if there are different degrees of X's and Y's ? If a man has higher degrees of X's than Y's, is it then possible for him to lean toward the feminine side."

Actually you may be on to something... Researchers have identified something called "epigenetics" which means some factors may account for suppressing the expression of certain genes. So it is possible to think that your mom did something which resulted in suppressing the expression of masculine genes, and the default expression will always result in the feminine.

People with Swyer syndrome have typical X,Y (male) chromosomes, but they have a defect on their y-chromosome and the result is that they appear and identify as females (with vagina). Also, boys with a defect in the SRY gene of their y-chromosomes have 5-alpha-reductase deficiency (guevedoces), and are considered girls at birth (with vagina) and then develop male genitals at puberty.

So any time there are problems with the y-chromosome, either by defect, or by epigenetic suppression, the default express will be toward the feminine.

There are other good theories including simply hard-wiring of the brain's neural pathways. During synaptogenesis you can develop a condition known as synesthesia, where stimulation of one sensory pathway leads to automatic, involuntary sensation in a second sensory pathway. For example, most men can wear feminine clothing and not feel anything but humiliation, however a much smaller group of men will experience a myriad of wonderful sensations from the release of feel-good neurotransmitters. In such cases their brain may be hardwired to interpret crossdressing as actual contact with a female.

[ReineD]

You don’t need to ask "what if", there are indeed chromosomal variations. So first, to supplement Lorileah’s post, is a little basic biology:


In humans, each cell normally contains 23 pairs of chromosomes, for a total of 46. Twenty-two of these pairs, called autosomes, look the same in both males and females. The 23rd pair, the sex chromosomes, differ between males who have one X and one Y, and females who have two Xs. So basically, males have 22+XY and females have 22+XX. This is usually denoted as 46,XY (male) and 46,XX (female).

There are many chromosomal mutations in non-sex chromosomes (genetic disorders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_disorders)), but you’re specifically asking about atypical sex chromosomes.

Here’s a list of sex chromosomes variations (the medical community refers to these as sex chromosome disorders). When the sex chromosomes result in ambiguous phenotypes (the physical traits of an individual), the people affected are referred to as 'intersex'. You can click on each link on the page below for specifics about each variation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_chromosome_disorders

This is a summary of the above for those of you who don't feel like clicking: the variations are 47,XXX, 48,XXXX, 49,XXXXY syndrome, 49,XXXX, 47,XXY Klinefelter syndrome, 45,X Turner syndrome, XX gonadal dysgenesis, XX male syndrome, XXYY syndrome, XXYY syndrome, XYY syndrome. Please note that these mutations are rare.

In addition to the above chromosomal mutations, there is Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome where a person who is genetically male (46,XY) is resistant to androgens. As a result, the person has some or all of the physical traits of a woman, but the genetic makeup of a man. This is rare as well, affecting 2-5 people in 100,000:

http://www.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/overview.html


And here is an expanded list of intersex conditions from the now defunct Intersex Society of North America (ISNA):

http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions

[anna kate]

Reine, Guess I didn't pay attention in Bio 101, 'cause I don't remember anything about that many pairs of chromosomes. That's probably why I ended up digging ditches all my working life. Anyway, I intend to read at least some of the info you offered. Who knows, maybe I'll learn something. Never too late, I'm told.

Thanks to all who replied, I'm going to go with yes, there's a probability, that something could get mixed up in our ( XX XY etc.) journey to life.

[Nadine Spirit]

Why, are you looking for something to blame?

I think many people are looking for exactly that. They can't accept who they are and how they were made or maybe even just choices they make. Anyway about it, some are upset and looking for something to point the finger at.

[ReineD]

Paula and Nadine, there’s also the reverse - people who look for genetic confirmation for their desire to crossdress or their need to transition. But the danger there is possibly finding out they are indeed 46,XY.

[Mayo]

But the danger there is possibly finding out they are indeed 46,XY.
Though there could be some other biological or neurological factor (e.g. epigenetic, hormonal, environmental) that is predisposing them to not conform to the default template for their sex.

[Tracii G]

Always someone elses fault

[Samantha Clark]

Don't forget that chromosomes don't determine anything. It's the alleles or genes within the chromosomes that matter. So subtle differences in the genes and the mix of genes within the entire genome need to be considered.

Until I became a father, I always thought that behavior traits were driven by both genetics and environment in rather equal shares. Since becoming a father and observing the strong and unique personality of small children from an early age, I'm not so sure anymore that genes don't have the upper hand in influencing the formation of temperament and behavior.

[Helen_Highwater]

My first response was, Doesn't it matter? People are what they are. But I suppose it does, if it can be demonstrated that this is a natural occurrence, not some psychological aberration then it supports the claims of I can't help what I am. Against that is the idea of free choice. If I choose this path then who are you to condemn me for it. This goes back to those who say someone can be cured of being gay. Ultimately it's about choice and educating people to be accepting of other people's choices. Don't blame your genes, just live your life.

[ReineD]

Don't forget that chromosomes don't determine anything. It's the alleles or genes within the chromosomes that matter.

Well, you can't carry the SRY gene (which is the master gene that specifies maleness and male features) unless you have a Y chromosome? Either way, I understood the OP's question. :)



I'm not so sure anymore that genes don't have the upper hand in influencing the formation of temperament and behavior

Last year there was a meta-analysis of almost every twin study published in the last 50 years: 2,748 classical twin studies - involving 14.5 million pairs of twins and examining 17,804 traits - published between 1958 and 2012. Some of the traits were more due to genetics than enviroment (i.e. bipolar disorder, 70% genetics/30% enviromental), while other traits were the reverse (i.e. risk for developing an eating disorder, 40% genetics/60% enviromental). Overall they found that we are all influenced about 49% genetics and 51% environmental.

Article: http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/have-researchers-settled-nature-vs-nurture-debate/

The study: http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v47/n7/full/ng.3285.html


Though there could be some other biological or neurological factor (e.g. epigenetic, hormonal, environmental) that is predisposing them to not conform to the default template for their sex.

Yes, obviously. :)

[GBJoker]

It might be a good time to read up on transpeople before WWII.

I have. Sub-continent Indians saw transsexuals and hermaphrodites as borderline holy. The Japanese at least acknowledged that transsexuals can be useful to society. Chinese seemed to have tolerated their presence as well. The Thai have been fine with transsexuals since they became Thai. Before Islam and Catholicism entered the Pacific Island nations, transsexuals were seen as necessary for society to survive. The same can be said for many tribes of Native Americans, with my favorite being Sioux general Red Cloud routinely giving war spoils to the transsexuals of the tribe after his lover killed herself.

While all of these groups have seen increases in the number of trans-people since WWII, it is far and away greatest among white people. In my opinion, it is so great as to not be explained by simply people being comfortable being out of the closet. At the same time, more whites were exposed to the various chemical agents of the 1950s and '60s compared to other groups. The numbers of people declaring themselves to be transsexual or "out of the closet" in other regions of the planet haven't gone up as quickly or to such levels, and most of these areas didn't flood their citizens with all these chemicals.

It might be a good time to expose yourself to other cultures.

[Krisi]

............... if it can be demonstrated that this is a natural occurrence, not some psychological aberration then it supports the claims of I can't help what I am. Against that is the idea of free choice. If I choose this path then who are you to condemn me for it. This goes back to those who say someone can be cured of being gay............. .

Can this be applied to criminal behavior? Can a burglar or rapist claim that he/she can't help their criminal behavior? Is it in the genes? Should the criminal behavior be excused because the criminal cannot help it?

Just wondering.

[NicoleScott]

I have an X because she couldn't understand Y I crossdress.

[Pat]

X and Y chromosomes explain sex. Sex is different than gender. Yes, there's such a thing as chromosome damage, but there isn't much evidence that transgender people as a whole are experiencing that.

Let's try a really strained metaphor -- DNA is like the blueprints for a house -- most people have heard and accept that. If the builder follows them exactly you know a lot about how the house is going to come out, but you don't know, for example, what color it's going to be -- that's not in the blueprints. Sometimes the builder doesn't follow the plans exactly and the house doesn't match the plan. Sometimes the materials called for in the blueprints aren't available and substitutions are made. The blueprints have to be combined with the builder's process -- you pour the foundation before you put up the frame, for example. Blueprints don't say that, but it's how things are done. So the theory that's currently the favorite goes like this: your Mom's body is busy building you according to the blueprints. The process requires that your sex organs be developed at a certain week and probably that's going to happen -- the prints says XY and your male sex organs start to develop. Weeks later, the process calls for your gender core to be built, but to do that a supply of testosterone needs to be delivered. 99.4% of the time the supplier delivers the right goods at the right time. But this time it's not there -- or maybe the supplier sent estrogen instead -- the plans say XY so you're supposed to get a male gender core but the supplies aren't there and the clock's ticking. They're going to build a gender core whether it's to spec or not -- the customer (you) can work it out. So the gender core they build is the best they can do under the circumstances but maybe it's not classic male. Oops.

That trivializes a lot of the development theory, but I think captures it in a single paragraph. The strongest presumption at the moment is that gender issues are due to development issues during gestation. There are other things that can go wrong too, not just gender. We're seeing the horrors of Zika virus during development and so on. DNA isn't the whole story by a long chalk.

[Lorileah]

Can this be applied to criminal behavior? Can a burglar or rapist claim that he/she can't help their criminal behavior? Is it in the genes? Should the criminal behavior be excused because the criminal cannot help it?

Just wondering. Really? You're comparing crossdressing to being a criminal? Yes, they have used that as a defense. And if it is a compulsion (the crime) then it becomes a mental disorder. It does not excuse you from being a criminal it just sends you somewhere else for punishment. Since being a TG is NOT a mental disorder or illegal, then your question is specious and off topic.

[Sometimes Steffi]

Reine. Even what you've stated above is oversimplified.

About 30 years ago, my wife and i were having problems conceiving a child, or at least conceiving one that would live to term. Over a two year period, my wife had 4 confirmed 2nd trimester miscarriages and maybe a few 1st trimester miscarriages that were less obvious. With each miscarriage, more medical resources were applied to understand what the problem was, and each time, more medical tests were performed.

Eventually, it got to be my turn to be tested. I underwent a chromosomal analysis, and 50 cells were analyzed. It turned out that 48 of the 50 samples were XY and the other 2 were XX. I was called “mosaicked”, meaning not all cells were created the same. So, officially, I’m 96% male and 4% female genetically. Needless to say, I think this is well beyond eighth grade biology. Whether this condition is related to me being transgender, I can’t say. It’s not a discussion that I was willing to have with my doctor given how deep I was in the closet.

[jeanieinabottle]

Hi Y'all. Settle in for the ride!

I hope I don’t sound to “teachy” but I apologize in advance and for the following length and I don’t want to take sides in the debate since even though I am a doc, the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about genetics and gender is well above my pay grade. But here goes to try to shed a little light on the X and Y subject.
1. Chromosomes are just long winding convoluted strings of DNA which is actually pretty simple in basic structure of 4 simple “nucleotides/bases,” double stranded with the opposing nucleotide on the opposing strand that matches up like pieces of a puzzle, all in a sugar base.
2. what makes the DNA special is not that all parts of DNA are the same but the sequencing of these nucleotides (in what order they occur) that produce a code.
3. Most of the DNA or code of chromosomes is nonsensical and actually means nothing. But every so often on this long string of DNA in each chromosome, there is a section that does mean something and those areas are called genes.
4. The sequencing/order of the nucleotides in the gene (which can be of various length, some short, some exceptionally long) codes for a particular protein, just like a string of numbers codes for each of our telephone numbers.
5. These codes allow us to make all kinds of proteins, which dictate the millions of functions we have, whether chemically, anatomically or physiologically and yes even behaviorably..
6. The codes are read off DNA when it splits from 2 strands to one strand by a type of RNA (single strand but very similar with only a slight nucleotide difference) which then go to areas called ribosomes where the protein is made from a pool of amino acids.
7. while we simply refer to a “blue eye gene” or a “curly hair gene” it is actually the protein produced from the code or genetic cookbook that produces these effects.
8. And yes, we have generally 23 pairs of chromosomes with the 23rd pair, the sex chromosomes being either XX as female or XY as male. (Yes I know there are many variations of the theme, Kleinfelters, Turners, and on and on. But that is more the exception rather than the rule)
9. And yes, while certain genes are located where and on which chromosome is pretty well defined, we all have differences which makes us all (with the exception of identical twins who came from the same egg and sperm) unique in our own individual code. Hence we are all genetically different in some areas even though also identical in various areas on our chromosomes
10. And we should remember that the 23rd pair (sex chromosomes of X or Y) have genes/codes on them for things other than determination and development of sex or gender. That’s where we get various sex linked diseases such as Duchennes Muscular Dystrophy which involves a defective protein (dystrophin) for muscular development occurring in males since this is where that code is located, on the Y chromosome. And conversely, areas on the other 22 pairs of chromosomes also may have codes for protein that also affect chemicals/substances which influence gender and gender expression.
11. That’s the simple part but here is where the wicket gets sticky. In the millions of cell divisions per day, it is inevitable that some chromosomal damage occurs. Bound to happen just by frequency. But the body is pretty good at identifying and repairing the damaged chromosome or destroying it before it can do something bad. In breast cancer, the BRCA1 and BRCA2 genes do become mutated and in a large variety of ways and they lose the ability to repair the damage resulting in the high incidence of breast cancers in individuals with BRCA1 and/or 2 mutations.
12. This damage can be from a number of different mechanisms (environment, external physical factors, medications, radiation, etc.) and therefore may continue on for further generations of the cell which may result in disease, cancer and yes, possibly even sex or gender expression, yes also if before birth.
13. But what is even more interesting beyond Chromosomal/DNA/gene damage has to do with epigenetics. What this means is that external environmental factors or other stimuli can be capable of either turning various genes on or off. Therefore in these cases, there is no structural change in the chemistry of the gene but how the gene expresses itself can be remarkably changed. On or Off. Or in some cases can actually cause a defect in how the code on the gene is read, even though the gene is not defective or damaged, resulting in deficient protein thus how the gene expresses or shows itself externally. The light is simply on or off.
14. the turning on or off can be temporary or long lasting. The result is producing a change in how the gene shows itself, its activity, without actually structurally changing the gene.
15. it has been suggested that this is how stem cells may actually work. Stem cells can be just about whatever they want to be when they grow up. But why does one stem cell become a kidney cell and another becomes a nerve cell or a particular type of blood cell, very different cells structurally and physiologically. Maybe under the influence of a particular stimulus (which is probably the hardest part to figure out) various genes are either turned on or off which direct which way the stem cell develops. HMMMM.
16. So what does all this mean? Its probably more than simply X’s and Y’s involved here with gender expression. Its probably more than one simple thing that causes us to be how we are. It’s probably a mixture of many things, the perfect storm that makes us who we are. And, I’m just guessing (but I think a good guess) that it can be very different in each one of us.
17. So for me I’ve given up trying to explain on a molecular level who and what I am. I’m just me. And I’m happy and content with that.

Again I apologize for the length and commend you if you got thru all this. Its just the teacher/practitioner in me that takes over my mind. Sorry.

Peace to all
Dr. J

[ReineD]

Reine. Even what you've stated above is oversimplified.

Steffi, no one can possibly encapsulate the entire field of genetics in just a few paragraphs. But if you're interested in learning more, you might want to start with basic genetics, freshmen level: Human Genetics: the basics (https://books.google.com/books?id=Pzd_jRUp4hYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=human+genetics&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj41oOtjfXOAhXGKyYKHYHVDoc4ChDoAQgzMAQ#v =onepage&q=human%20genetics&f=false), Ricki Lewis, Routledge.

And then there are entire textbooks on what we know about atypical chromosomes and also X & Y recessive and dominant inheritance, although as Jeannieinabottle mentions, most of these disorders have nothing to do with the development of sex or gender.

If you're interested in mosaicism though, click on the second link in my post#13 for atypical chromosomes. There is reference to mosaicism in some of their links.

[Krisi]

Really? You're comparing crossdressing to being a criminal? Yes, they have used that as a defense. And if it is a compulsion (the crime) then it becomes a mental disorder. It does not excuse you from being a criminal it just sends you somewhere else for punishment. Since being a TG is NOT a mental disorder or illegal, then your question is specious and off topic.

You really do have a problem with anyone who posts something you don't agree with, don't you. It is not necessary to attempt to twist my words to make it seem I posted that I did not. I was simply asking a question. Nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps you should chill a bit. Let the discussion continue.

[Lana Mae]

I agree with what Dr. J said on #17! I am me and let the X and Y fall where it may!! LOL Hugs Lana Mae

[Lorileah]

I was simply asking a question. Nothing more, nothing less.

Perhaps you should chill a bit. Let the discussion continue.


Uh huh ...let's take a look at the tape
Can this be applied to criminal behavior? Can a burglar or rapist claim that he/she can't help their criminal behavior? Is it in the genes? Should the criminal behavior be excused because the criminal cannot help it?

The post you were referring to was about crossdressing, you jumped in with criminality and how could the reasoning of crossdressing be used by criminals to defend themselves (it was free will specifically). No one twisted your words. Your question was off topic

[NicoleScott]

Krisi's point (a question, actually) is being missed. It's not comparing crossdressing to criminal behavior, but asking if it's possibly the same mechanism that determines different "attributes", without speculating on what that mechanism might be. We are told if you're a crossdresser, accept it because you can't change it. I have wondered this about habitual criminals. Let's take serial killers, for example. With no personal connection, no revenge, nothing financial to gain, some people seem to have an insatiable need to kill strangers. Some have confessed that "if you let me out of prison, I'll do it again. I can't help it. I don't know why". Could some genetic "copying error" be the cause? What causes one to crossdress? Or kill strangers? If we want answers to these and other unknowns, we must allow questions to be asked.

[Sarasometimes]

I think more of it has to do with the conditions in utero during the various stages of development. We all start out female and some develop into males but during gestation hormone levels vary and they determine many of our characteristics (Watch"The 9 Months that made you" documentory). During our development if testosterone is high at a certain point we will be risk takers, if it is lower we will not be risk takers, aka adrenaline junkies. I strongly believe these variations determine where we will be on the spectrum for gender, gender identity and sexual orientation. All are separate characteristics. MHO

[Mayo]

Before Islam and Catholicism entered the Pacific Island nations, transsexuals were seen as necessary for society to survive.
Many of the countries that were conquered/colonized by Britain had Victorian morality forcibly imposed upon them. Among other things, many traditional behaviours and customs were outlawed - as only one example, the Indian hijras were criminalized as being 'against nature'. As a result, they were relegated to almost the bottom of the social hierarchy for several hundred years, and it's only very recently that they've been accorded legal recognition and protection in India. I think that the increase in acceptance of LGBT people in the West is also due to a waning of this sort of morality.

I will concede that many endocrine disruptors (e.g. DES, DDT, PCBs, etc.) have come into existence since WWII and that they exist in many personal products (one consequence of which is thought to be the decreasing age of menarche in women), so it could very well be that the increased prevalence of such products in recent years has had some effect on whatever neural systems are responsible for the development of gender identity. However, I think that social change - not increased numbers - is a better explanation for the increased visibility of gay/trans people. That said, nobody really knows... just as we're engaged in a massive yet unintentional experiment with the planetary systems that support us, perhaps we're also unwittingly involved in modifying ourselves as a species.

[Krisi]

Krisi's point (a question, actually) is being missed. It's not comparing crossdressing to criminal behavior, but asking if it's possibly the same mechanism that determines different "attributes", without speculating on what that mechanism might be. We are told if you're a crossdresser, accept it because you can't change it. I have wondered this about habitual criminals. Let's take serial killers, for example..

Thank you for actually thinking about my post and not posting a knee jerk reaction.

[ReineD]

We all start out female and some develop into males

That's not quite accurate.

We all start out as undifferentiated zygotes, not females - we all are "its", and we all have equivalent non-sexual internal structures during the first month of incubation. No one develops sexual characteristics until sexual differentiation occurs during the second month of incubation: fetuses that are pre-programmed with XX chromosomes (the programming happens when the egg is fertilized) will differentiate as girls during the second month and will begin to form a uterus and fallopian tubes. Fetuses that are pre-programmed with XY chromosomes will differentiate as boys and will begin to form testes.

At no point, even in the beginning, do all fetuses have ovaries and fallopian tubes (i.e. your contention that we all start out female), which then differentiate to testes for some fetuses. It just doesn't work that way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_differentiation_in_humans



During our development if testosterone is high at a certain point we will be risk takers, if it is lower we will not be risk takers, aka adrenaline junkies. I strongly believe these variations determine where we will be on the spectrum for gender, gender identity and sexual orientation. All are separate characteristics. MHO

Yes, a fetus' brain is exposed to testosterone in different waves at different times during gestation, resulting in different brain regions that are more or less affected, but this happens regardless of whether the fetus is male or female. This is what accounts for the complexity in determining someone's personality traits - there are many different regions of the brain that are exposed to more or less testosterone during gestation and at different times. But, boys can be nurturing/empathetic and girls can be aggressive/competitive, without possessing a desire to present as a gender opposite their sex. In fact, (many? most?) MtFs who end up transitioning have a normal range of testosterone for males before starting on androgen blokers and estrogen.

You might also be interested in watching this video: Is Your Brain Male or Female (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPg0s6fMUDg)

Note that the women who had good spacial reasoning were not interested in being male, and the men who were as nurturing as the females were not interested in being female. So if you're looking for an explanation of why you crossdress, it may be as simple as having it start out as a sexual response to the crossdressing, which has more to do with simply having had a sexual response than posessing some more-male or more-female brain regions. We do all know that sexual preferences, no matter what they are, are distinct from gender, if you consider homosexual males who are not interested in being female and lesbians who are not interested in being male.

... and yes, for those of you who began crossdressing at an early age, even young children have sexual responses, even though their sexual responses are more along the lines of "this feels good" ... and are obviously not as developed as the orgasms they will be capable of achieving during puberty.

[Robin777]

I am not convinced it all genetic makeup that causes the lean toward to the feminine side. I am more convinced some of it is caused by the exposure to various chemical in the environment.That would explain the increase since the 40's.

[Lorileah]

People complain that things get off topic here frequently and then they take things OFF TOPIC

Let's get back to the original question

Basic biology tells us about XX and XY. What if there are different degrees of X's and Y's ? If a man has higher degrees of X's than Y's, is it then possible for him to lean toward the feminine side, depending on how much or little of each ? That could explain the different degrees of CD etc.


Do you see ANYTHING there that says anything about anything else (i.e. criminals)? So unless you are putting criminal behavior in the same category as crossdressing, it's NOT what was asked in the OP.

[ReineD]

But it’s more complex than the OP’s simple XX or XY question. The sex chromosomes only determine our sexual characteristics and not our gender identity. So unless a person has ambiguous genitalia or karyotype tests have determined they have atypical chromosomes (although there is no evidence even this causes gender issues), they need to look further than XX or XY.

Subsequent discussion went into further detail, such as genes and alleles. Although identifying genes on each chromosome is an active area of genetic research, they have not identified a crossdressing gene. They also have not proven hormonal washes in utero that cause gender dysphoria. Mayo also mentioned epigenetics (the study of changes in organisms caused by modification of gene expression rather than alteration of the genetic code itself) which includes chemical changes to our body and brain as the result of our environment … and not only the foods, drugs, or pollutants we’ve ingested, but our own behaviors as they’ve influenced our brain’s reward system, which is a fundamental process of learning. Behavioral epigenetics is a fairly new area of study.

Behavioral epigenetics (http://bioscience.oxfordjournals.org/content/61/8/588.full)

So basically, every human trait falls under this discussion. A discussion of whether psychopathy is inherited, influenced or learned might provide insight on whether any other type of behavior is inherited, influenced or learned, including the crossdressing. And I’m guessing there have been more studies of psychopathy than the crossdressing. Also, people do use analogies in their discussions in an attempt to clarify what they mean, since again, very little is known about the causes of the crossdressing, specifically.

You’re right, psychopathy is not in the same category as alcoholism, which is not in the same category as shopping addictions, which are not in the same category as the crossdressing (although some CDers can be said to have a sexual compulsion), but these are all behaviors that are outside the statistical norm, as much as we don't like to think of it in these terms. This is why people are interested in finding out if humans are coded for anomalous behaviors, or whether they've been exposed to anomalous hormones in utero, or whether they’ve suffered trauma that has caused behaviors that are not well accepted in our society, or whether they've been imprinted somehow, or whether their own actions have reinforced and strengthened these behaviors. And the reason there are these discussions is because no one knows the answer.

Conversely, it’s easy to understand how we are all coded for eye and skin color.

[Paula_56]

The statement that God made only male and female without any variations is false. There are intersex people and transgender people and they have always been part of humanity. There are physical and genetic variations of sex that occur naturally. So I say there are also variations of gender identity that occur naturally. Because we have not conclusively traced transgenderism to a gene or a certain part of the brain doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. They are all part of the human experience, instead of condemning it’s time to open our minds, to begin learning, to begin understanding, then accepting and finally celebrating.

[Krisi]

Personally, I don't believe our desires to strap on a pair of breasts and pretend we are women or have sex with people of our same sex have anything to do with chromosomes, conditions in the womb or drugs our mothers may have taken, I believe these desires come from events that happen to us after we are born and maybe that should be the subject of a separate thread someday.

But, if we are discussing the possibility of these traits being formed in the womb, it would be pretty unscientific to leave out other traits such as compulsive, anti social or habitual criminal behavior. You can't pick and choose.

[Mayo]

I'm of the opinion that sexual orientation and gender identity are somewhat like schizophrenia - it's probably mediated by multiple genes but also has a strong environmental component, so you are more likely (but not certain) to develop it if you have a genetic predisposition, but you can still acquire it even if you don't. Our genetic default is to be cisgender and heterosexual, but some people could naturally (or because of a disorder of sexual development) have a tendency toward the opposite gender or orientation, which may or may not be expressed in actuality depending on how other factors contribute. Similarly, some people who don't have this predisposition can still become non-cis/het under certain conditions. The degree to which all of the genetic, environmental and social factors interact determines how we eventually turn out, though it may vary over time and some of us may also have some degree of personal agency (choice) in our responses to those tendencies. This is a vast oversimplification, of course - suffice to say that I believe biology and environment interact, but not necessarily in the same way or degree for everyone, and because of this complexity we will never be able to exactly pin it down and say 'this is the cause'.

[Nadine Spirit]

But, if we are discussing the possibility of these traits being formed in the womb, it would be pretty unscientific...

Hahahaha..... as if anything discussed on these boards could be considered scientific.

These discussions are simply people's opinions.

And Krisi - while you love to give out your opinions, you hate it when people give their opinions about your thoughts.

Maybe thats what can't be picked or chosen?

[LilSissyStevie]

There's no need for all of this complicated mumbo jumbo. The only thing you need to know is that genes make proteins. If any one can show me how some mix of proteins can make me put on a dress or identify as a man or woman, then I'll become a believer in the genetic theory of transgenderism. Otherwise I'll just assume that I'm not a biochemical automaton and go about the business of living.

[Stephanie47]

I've made a valid attempt to follow this discussion. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, as a retiree I may need to go to one of my local colleges and audit a class on genetics. I have tried to apply all this to the world around me and it just does not make what I have experienced or see any clearer. As a young boy pre-puberty I showed absolutely zero tendencies or interests in any thing feminine or female. I was rough and tumble with the scars to show it. I did find my mother's nylon slips interesting became of the feel of the material. There was no sexual motivation. Sex did not exist is society in the 1950's like it does today. The black and white girdle ads in the New York Daily News may have been the most erotic thing available to me, but, I did not care. When puberty arose in me, then the conflict arose. That draw to the nylon slip did become sexual in nature. It was downhill from there. I lived and have lived a dual life. I am still a rough and tumble guy. There were periods of time when my male hormones were raging and rightfully so. In the army there was no time for sexual thoughts..just preservation of life. Maybe there was some would argue, because, I had no thoughts of rape, pillage and burn. No sense of the male conqueror entitled to the spoils of war. Then again, throughout history not everyone involved in warfare exhibited those tendencies.

Anyway, I really have not seen anything offered that conclusively addresses the defining event that seems to be shown in many threads...hit puberty and the boys starts dabbling in cross dressing. To me, that is totally different than the young..very young child.. who has always felt and tried to act as the child of the opposite sex. I suspect there are different answers to the same question, a through d and all of the above.

My therapist for war related issues believes all men and all women have some DNA of the opposite sex, and, to the degree they have it will determine the final outcome.

[Micki_Finn]

Kind of a side note to the main thrust of the discussion, but I recently read an article about intersex persons. The term was first used to describe what used to be called "hermephroditic" individuals, or persons who displayed characteristics of both genders. Apparently they are discovering that more people than previously believed might be intersex because they are finding that there aren't always outward signifiers. There was a runner in the olympics who was nearly banned (I think they let her run, but not 100%) because her body produced abnormal levels of testosterone. It turns out there may be a whole spectrum of intersex individuals, many of whom may display no outward intersex characteristics.

[ReineD]

Apparently they are discovering that more people than previously believed might be intersex because they are finding that there aren't always outward signifiers.

Yes, and if MtF members here want to determine if they are intersex and if this might explain why they feel compelled to dress as women, here are some resources they can read rather than engaging in endless speculation. Some of these conditions do not have definitions, but they can be googled separately:

http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions

Many of these conditions involve atypical sexual characteristics and development and should be easy to rule out for members here who grew up with typical male sexual characteristics.

Other intersex conditions, as you say, are hidden (they do not show up as atypical sexual characteristics), but it is not likely these individuals have gender issues. The advocacy group, Intersex Society of North America (ISNA is now defunct), maintains that "intersex" is not synonymous with "transgender" and the vast majority of intersex individuals identify as male or female rather than transgender or transsexual. They do have a gender identity that corresponds with their most prominent sexual characteristics.

http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender

Accord Alliance, a group working on establishing medical Standards of Care for intersex individuals say the same thing. Scroll down the FAQs to the "Social Implications" section, and click on "Does having a DSD make a person transgender":

http://www.accordalliance.org/learn-about-dsd/faqs/

(Note that Accord Alliance refer to intersex as "Disorders of Sexual Development", which is a contested term, since intersex conditions are not disorders. A preferred term is "Differences of Sexual Development".

A third advocacy group, the Organization Intersex International (OII), also say that Intersex is historically defined by biology and not gender identity. Intersex refers to congenital biological sex (chromosomes, genitals, hormones and/or gonads) which is not typically male or female and that can result in additional variations in secondary sexual characteristics such as muscle mass, hair distribution, breast development, hip to waist ratio, and stature.

http://oiiinternational.com/2559/intersex-medicine-fourteen-days-intersex/

So again, if members here grew up with typical male sexual characteristics (which I gather most have), and karyotype testing has determined they do not have atypical chromosomes, they do not have an intersex condition. In other words, the vast majority of intersex conditions have traits or something that causes people to see their doctors for explanations. It shouldn’t be, "maybe I can use the intersex label to explain away the crossdressing". Instead, people who have questions should visit their doctors and get tested for hidden, atypical sexual characteristics.






There was a runner in the olympics who was nearly banned (I think they let her run, but not 100%) because her body produced abnormal levels of testosterone.

Yes, it is Caster Semenya. She won the gold medal in the women's 800 metres at the Rio Olympics. Instead of all the media speculation, I think she should be tested. Although I'm no expert, if her body does produce more testosterone to compensate for androgen insensitivity (if she has CAIS) and this gives her an advantage in women’s competitions but would place her in a disadvantagous position in men’s competitions, I think it might be fair to introduce a third competitive category in sports and she should race against other individuals who are like her.

In this thread we shouldn't focus on Caster Semenya's involvement in sports competitions but rather whether people like her identify as male or female. If Semenya is indeed CAIS (46,XY), she would be an example of having a gender identity that agrees with her genitals, despite having opposite sex chromosomes. Reverse this and apply it to forum members here who would like to believe that although they have male genitals (and presumably Y chromosomes), a hidden intersex condition might explain the crossdressing. If they are analogous to Semenya, then they would have a gender identity that agrees with their genitals?

[Pat]

Wow, this thread has carried on quite a bit... I thought it would die off or get locked quickly. ;)

As I think it's clear, there are no authoritative answers yet.

If you believe / want to believe that transgenderism is coded in DNA, you have to explain why it does not seem to follow families and it does seem to be uniformly distributed across the human population. It's fair to argue that medical histories are taken by interviewing the patient and because of social stigma the patient might not know that their parent / grandparent / sibling was transgender but the stigma does not apply in all cultures and still the condition does not seem to follow families. It's a stumbling block for the genetic crowd, but again the question isn't settled.

Developmentalists have their own mysteries to solve before they can claim victory. I've heard of, but have not found, an animal study that is claimed to show that manipulating hormone levels during gestation allowed the researchers to create gender-incorrect behavior in some animal. That would be pretty interesting if true, though it would still be a long way from proof that that's the mechanism in humans.

But Behaviorists (folks who think transgenderism is learned behavior,) I think are on the ropes. There was a study out of the Netherlands (they do a lot of TG studies there -- I'm told it's because of the way the Dutch fund their research) that documented using a pheromone that men and women react differently to -- when the pheromone was used by people who identified as transgender the transgender people's reaction was congruent with their gender identity, not their sex. Which, since a pheromone reaction happens down in the "lizard brain" where an individual can't control it, is a strong indicator that there is a biological basis to transgenderism. (Of course, it says nothing about DNA vs Development.) There's still a snag, though -- the pheromone reaction was apparently solid in post-pubescent people, but not clear in pre-pubescent kids. Most theories hold that transgenderism is not linked to puberty so this has to be explained and the experiment has to be replicated elsewhere before it's more than just a curiosity.

There's another study (both this and the previous one were lightly mentioned in Scientific American Mind for January 2016) where the arrangement of neurons in transgender people's brains were found to be more like their gender identity than their sex, again arguing that there's a biological basis. Again, it's just an indicator not absolute proof. Stay tuned. Write your congressman and insist on research funding.

Just to lightly touch on the sensitive topic of "born this way" defenses -- it's true that there are a range of conditions, including some that are considered criminal (serial killers, arsonists, etc.) that have evidence that people are born with a predisposition toward them for some reason. They deserve research too, but the most important part of the "born this way" defense in the LGBT community is that we are born this way and we are harmless to society. In fact, we can generally demonstrate a net positive for society if we are allowed to flourish. THAT'S what makes it effective for us.

[Rianna Humble]

Can this be applied to criminal behavior? Can a burglar or rapist claim that he/she can't help their criminal behavior?

These remarks have nothing to do with the topic and border on accusing cross-dressers and trans people of being criminals.

Jut wondering why someone would be so full of hate as to post that.

[NicoleScott]

...if it can be demonstrated that this is a natural occurrence, not some psychological aberration then it supports the claims of I can't help what I am.

This is part of the post that Krisi referenced when ASKING THE QUESTION about criminal behavior.

Let's try this again. Without arguing over the words that drive the behavior (obsession, compulsion, fixation, etc.), some people are driven to collect stamps, others to explore caves. In my opinion, Krisi was ASKING if it's possible that the same mind/body process that causes one behavior causes different behaviors in other people. This is in no way comparing the two activities. Krisi was not comparing crossdressing to criminal behavior. And now Krisi is accused of saying crossdressing IS criminal behavior. Jeez.
This is twisting words, attacking for what wasn't said, and accusing hate. Shameful.

[jeanieinabottle]

Being a retired doc, in my 40 years and thousands of patients often the answers to medical problems were simple and I could give simple answers. However, not uncommonly, the answers were much more complex with complex answers. What I found in most cases that even in these complicated cases, patients tended to want only simple answers. I don't think it was because they couldn't in many cases understand a more complex answer. But it was more "just the facts Jack" sort of thing. Where am I going with this. I really feel that how we express our gender is not a simple state with a simple answer but probably in many cases a mixture of a lot of factors.
To believe that there could be no genetic influence in some cases might be misleading in that epigenetically, we know that that because of various influences, environmental, developmental, and possibly even stress or psychologically related, some genes may be turned on or turned off. Therefore they might not be followed in a genetic chain within families and expressed by other siblings or offspring. We also know that DNA can be damaged and DNA makes up the gene. In most cases it is either repaired or destroyed and hence not continued. But sometimes it does. Result...abnormal protein codes. And yes proteins are more than just parts that make up tissue. They contribute to neurotransmitters that allow nerves to communicate, hormones, enzymes which result in thousands of chemical reactions in our bodies and therefore run our physiology amonst other things. So they can affect more than development of tissue but how we live on a daily basis. So they do have an effect. This is above and beyond that all our genes are a little different. our codes are different. That is why we are different.
To say that there isn't an organic reason would be a mistake as well. PET scans in some studies do seem to suggest that brain wiring and centers that become excited with various external stimuli may represent those of our opposite structural apparatus, ie. our sex. This is probably only the tip of the iceburg.
As well from the environmental aspect, plastics, medications, polluntants, foods, dyes, and you name it affect our biological processes and also may affect our DNA (remember epigenetics, gene/DNA damage, etc.) So to think that there isn't any environmental reasons would also be an error.
And how about behavioural? Stress, conditioning (Clockwork Orange), deprivation, relationships and all kinds of things of the sort affect us as well.
I've spent years trying to look at studies, listen to people, read texts, go to lectures, and just sit and think and in the end what do I think? Even looking at it from a scientific point of view, I wanted the simple answer. And my simple answer is that it can be a lot of things. There can be alot of reasons, there can be multiple factors, there might be only a few. But as an old retired doc who has seen a multitude of medical advances over the 40 years of a blessed life, it would be pure folley and totally foolhearted of me to think we know it all. Probably not even half. I know I'll probably be gone if and when they come up with a definitive answer. Who knows. Everyone can think what they want and give their opinion. Thats your privilege. But what I'm doing is to think I just want to enjoy the ride, whatever runs it and that is my simple answer that I gave to myself. I haven't totally given up trying to understand...I just don't want to let it get in my way of just being who I am. I'm at peace......FINALLY
Again, as always, I apologize for the length of my post and commend anyone that has the perseverance to struggle thru my humble words. My bad.
Peace to all
Dr. J.

[Robin414]

It's soooo simple, Chernobyl! The nuclear disaster sent tons of genderfluidinium into the atmosphere and it infiltrated the food chain, and complicated biological stuff...I eat a lot of tuna, bet you do too! 😉

[Rianna Humble]

And now Krisi is accused of saying crossdressing IS criminal behavior. Jeez.
This is twisting words, attacking for what wasn't said, and accusing hate. Shameful.

You claim people were twisting Krisi's words, yet you do the same to those who dare to question what she had written. Now, what is the word for that kind of behaviour? Don't answer in this thread, I have no wish to derail it further.

[ReineD]

We all know that several people can look at the same words and derive different opinions of the motives for saying them.

Some people in this thread believe that Krisi accuses crossdressers of being criminals. Others, including me, believe that Krisi’s main point in her response to Helen (albeit with a bad example), centered on whether any behavior is naturally occurring or whether it is psychologically driven. Since there are two ways to take Krisi’s words, the best solution is to ask Krisi to clarify and confirm whether or not she does equate the crossdressing to criminal behavior.

And to be fair, Krisi should clarify this publicly since she has been publicly accused of saying something horribly negative against the crossdressing, which could harm her reputation here and cost her friends. If she says again that she does not believe that crossdressers are criminals, then she needs to be believed. To do otherwise would be accusing her of lying.

Also, the very gist of this thread is precisely a determination of whether the crossdressing is naturally occurring or whether it is psychologically driven … and any behavior can be used as an example, i.e. do I love to draw because I was born with a propensity for drawing, or have I learned to draw and grew to love it.

Finally, I don’t think any of this can be answered even if we look at all the available scientific evidence. The fields of genetics/phsychology/etc are not developed enough to explain the full complexity of human behaviors and the nature vs. nurture debate rages on - although there was a meta analysis done last year comparing all the twin studies from the 1950s to now, and they did determine that overall, it is 50/50, even though some specific traits are more nature (i.e. depression), while others are more nurture (i.e. bulimia). They have not discovered anything about the crossdressing though.

For those interested in the study, google "Meta-analysis of the heritability of human traits based on fifty years of twin studies", by Polderman, Benyamin, de Leeuw, Sullivan, van Bochoven, Visscher, & Posthuma. This study examined 17,804 traits among 14,558,903 twins from studies among 2,748 publications. It is the most comprehensive analysis of the causes of individual differences in human traits thus far.

[Krisi]

Hahahaha..... as if anything discussed on these boards could be considered scientific.

These discussions are simply people's opinions.

And Krisi - while you love to give out your opinions, you hate it when people give their opinions about your thoughts.

Maybe thats what can't be picked or chosen?

No, I hate it when the "opinion" is phrased as a personal insult (like your post is). I understand that people have different opinions but if you find yourself having to insult someone else to defend your opinion, your opinion is pretty weak.

Posting why you think I am wrong is fine. Insulting me to try and defend your opinion is not.

- - - Updated - - -


We all know that several people can look at the same words and derive different opinions of the motives for saying them.

Some people in this thread believe that Krisi accuses crossdressers of being criminals. Others, including me, believe that Krisi’s main point in her response to Helen (albeit with a bad example), centered on whether any behavior is naturally occurring or whether it is psychologically driven. Since there are two ways to take Krisi’s words, the best solution is to ask Krisi to clarify and confirm whether or not she does equate the crossdressing to criminal behavior.

And to be fair, Krisi should clarify this publicly since she has been publicly accused of saying something horribly negative against the crossdressing, which could harm her reputation here and cost her friends. If she says again that she does not believe that crossdressers are criminals, then she needs to be believed. To do otherwise would be accusing her of lying..

OK, I will say it. I never said or meant to imply that crossdressing was equal to criminal behavior. That was someone (look it up) intentionally twisting my words around to start an argument. Someone who by their position here, should have known better.

My intention was to suggest that if the desire to crossdress is created before birth by whatever conditions, then it is entirely possible that other behaviors are also, and that would include compulsive antisocial or criminal behavior. Nothing more, nothing less. No comparison other than they seem to be compulsive behaviors.

[ReineD]

My intention was to suggest that if the desire to crossdress is created before birth by whatever conditions, then it is entirely possible that other behaviors are also, and that would include compulsive antisocial or criminal behavior. Nothing more, nothing less. No comparison other than they seem to be compulsive behaviors.

OK, so now we're back on track.

But we mustn't limit the comparison to just compulsive, antisocial, or criminal behavior. What about our likes and dislikes that propel other types of behaviors like sports activity, drawing, painting, acting, etc. With practice, people get better at it and the activity gives them positive feedback, which encourages them to want to do more. Is this all nature or is it nurture?

Let's take another example and look at a scientific analysis of Michael Phelps (https://www.scienceabc.com/sports/michael-phelps-height-arms-torso-arm-span-feet-swimming.html) (we do not have similar scientific analyses of crossdressers, else I'd discuss this here instead). Phelps is an excellent swimmer and because of this he no doubt grew to love swimming which helped him to become dedicated to training. He has taller than average height (6'4), a longer than average arm span (6'7), a longer than average torso, larger than average palms, longer than average feet, extremily flexible ankles, and his body produces less lactic acid than the average swimmer which reduces his recovery time. He most definitely has a genetic advantage to excel, but this is only half the story. The other half involves nurture ... the extreme amount of hard work and dedication to training in order to hone his skill, without which he would not be such a prolific medalist, together with the prodigeous amounts of food he needs to eat every day to keep up his training (12,000 calories).

So you see, even Michael Phelps, who is genetically coded to be a powerful swimmer, would not have been an Olympic champion without purpose and dedication, which were motivated by the reward system we all have when we choose to love and to become excellent in one activity over another.

[StephanieH]

I've dressed since childhood, long before I knew what sex was or that a girl had different naughty bits - used to scare my mom to death to come over to my cousin's house and find me wearing all her clothes (she's the same age as me) when we were kids, right down to her undies (especially her undies - knew I liked them, had no idea why). My cousin thought it was good fun dressing me up and I enjoyed it. I'd get fussed at and spanked, but we'd end up doing it again. Won the boy's beauty pageant in 4th grade and got to stay in drag at school the whole day - thought it was great, had no idea why. And so it continued.

In the midst of loads of medical testing for chronic prostatitis and and an esophagus condition, a couple years ago (I'm now 52), they finally make the discovery that I'm a legit Mosaic Klinefelter Syndrome guy. I looked it up and thought to myself, well, that explains a helluva' lot. Wife was very relieved, I think, that there was an actual reason for me being a "perv" - although she's always been very, very, supportive.