The Price of Moving Forward

[Marcelle]

I heard and interesting quote once "It's a cash and carry world. Sometimes you pay a little. Mostly it's a lot. Sometimes it's everything you have." In my mayfly existence on this planet I have paid much and in two cases came close to paying the Ferryman everything. Yesterday I truly learned what it means to willingly put "everything" in the pot.

As many here know I have maintained the stance that HRT is not for me for reasons which I did not go into. I guess we spend so much of our lives denying who we are that sometimes that denial stubbornly hangs on and we come to believe that it is fact not falsehoods. I know in my heart of hearts I am a woman but sometimes "he" clings to my existence like some ghost echo not truly wanting to let go. Over the past few months things have been getting chaotic in my mind, in essence the same as when I first came to this realization three years ago and sometimes my thoughts are dark. Anger, bitterness and depression creeping back in like some insipid mold which won't die. When I get like this I become introspective during which I realized . . . I am lying to myself much the same way I lied to myself three years ago, all in an attempt to hold tenuously on to the last vestiges of him. Now it wasn't all lies as it included deep seated and I truly believe a healthy fear of not wanting to rush into something until I was completely sure . . . HRT. However, once I separated the fear from the fact I realized this is something . . . I need. Emotionally I am becoming a bit unstable (not self-destructive unstable should someone wonder) just emotionally unbalanced. I know it is time and so I made an appointment through my medical system to speak to a doctor to start the process. I cannot describe the shear joy I felt when that appointment was confirmed . . . no doubts, no fear . . . just happiness that things are going to move forward.

That was the easy part. My wife would have to be told and though she has been supportive of me, I sensed that a step down this path may be a bit too jagged for her to navigate with me. I love my wife and I am sure she loves me but our relationship has kind of skewed over the last three years in that romance has departed but a deep seated bond of friendship has replaced it. Our conversations are enjoyable, our time existing together is a joy . . . we just sync better than before . . . love but a different sort. However, I am cognizant that physiologically I am still male and I think that provides her with a security blanket of sorts . . . she may dress as a woman, live as a woman but she is still a guy which makes me heterosexual. I feared that my announcing that HRT was now on the table which in effect could produce physical changes which may make it difficult to see her security blanket not to mention I am sure she will wonder what is next (GCS?) . . . just saying, I was not expecting a good outcome. Yesterday after work we had our talk . . . it did not go well. As expected she was deeply confused and hurt as I had maintained that this was not something I was seeking . . . I know, I know a fatal error on my part and anyone reading this should learn from my mistake . . . never say never when dealing with loved ones. The proper approach should have been, "as of now HRT is not something I am thinking of but I cannot make any promises because I don't know where this will lead". There was a lot of yelling, a lot of crying and talk of separation/divorce followed by accusations of destroying her dreams of retirement. I tried to explain I still see a future for us but unfortunately I will have to live that future as a woman. Then my worst fear . . . she is not prepared to be in a same sex marriage. I get that and I hold no ill will towards her for that . . . it just hurt. The woman I have loved for almost three decades was slowly slipping from my grasp before my very eyes and there was nothing I could do because of this cursed condition. She could not discuss anymore and asked for some time to think.

So last night was quiet and reflective for me. Sorry, I am going to get a bit Sci-Fi nerdy girl here. In essence I am facing my very own Star Trek Kobayashi Maru . . . should I choose to cross the neutral zone and save her (not start HRT) which would most likely destroy me or move forward with HRT which could likely result in the destruction of our 28 year marriage. I know nobody can give me the answer and some of you have already lived this . . . but for me writing these thoughts down are cathartic and hopefully will help others in a similar situation or are just starting down the path. This is a hard journey and sometimes things go well and then a small bump sends things flying out of control. Right now I feel sad and for the first time in my life . . . totally alone . . . with life altering decisions to be made.

. . . Sometimes you pay a little. Mostly it's a lot. Sometimes it's everything you have.

Marcelle

[Jennifer-GWN]

Oh my dear Marcelle. Your post is both surprising, saddening, but yet a reflection of what many of us have had to come to terms with as well. I had thought/hoped you'd be immune to this one. The precipice of HRT represents such a large chasm for many cis women even when the relationships are strong and grounded. It's a turning point. I've watched you grow as the woman you are with the greatest degree of maturity, strength, and pragmatism. Please know that you are not alone. You have a following of friends and those near by to draw from. You have the strength to power through this with the highest degree of thought and reflection. I understand completely that in this case you're fighting not one battle front but 2... The HRT aspects to bring closure to your transition and the other a battle of relationship and maintaining the sanctity of your long standing marriage. This one is never easy. You in the end have to survive emotionally while finding the path forward from a relationship perspective. I wish you the best on this. Offer that my line remains open to talk anytime and the door is always open should you need a refuge to think.

I am so sorry to hear that's it's come to this. Be well with yourself Marcelle and time to start changing the rules a bit to reach the desired outcome.

You are in my heart and thoughts.
Jennifer

[JanePeterson]

I am so sorry to read your pain... I am so proud of your strength... I hope you find some comfort. Much like you said to avoid saying never, sometimes we need to leave the door open a crack for our spouses too- who knows, maybe eventually you'll both find a place where you can be authentic and be together.

[Megan G]

Marcelle,

I am so sorry, that was difficult to read as it brought up many memories from my journey. I am sure most/if not all of us have been there and totally feel for you right now. I hope as the days pass you both can find some comfort and understanding.

Megan.

[Pat]

Marcelle -- so sorry to read your anguish. I've been following you since I came here and you've always been a role model to me as you felt your way along the path. Another saying is "it ain't over 'til it's over." Things might still settle out between you and your wife. I hope that's the case. Good luck.

[Brooklyn]

I'm so sorry Marcelle. Part of me wants to say "I KNEW it", but really I was hoping that somehow you had squared the circle - that by using your intellect and warm heart, you had figured out a way around medical transition. You just cannot negotiate with this stuff, however. All you can do is try to manage the situation as best as you can, and the only reward in resisting is to give people time to come to terms with the reality that you are transsexual and that all this is really happening.

Your wife will feel angry and betrayed as any woman in that situation would. She may still perceive you more as an eccentric man rather than the woman you are becoming. Maybe you can work something out? Even if divorce is in your future, that happens to most marriages and life goes on afterwards. I'm sure you will make the best of the situation.

I'm also thrilled that you are finally starting HRT! That is a huge step and it will make you feel better. Welcome aboard the starship.

[Bria]

Marcelle, I can only echo the previous comments, I am sorry that your relationship is in the crosshairs, would that it not be so. I have followed your posts since I joined here only one month after you did, and have received much insight from them. As I saw your development as a woman proceed at a fairly rapid pace I wondered if you could stop short of HRT. Naturally, I hoped that would be the case as we all know that the HRT threshold is a big one to cross.

I hope that your wife will come to the point that she can make this journey with you as I know that her support would be very helpful as you navigate the future.

Whether or not your wife makes the journey with you, please know that my thoughts and prayers are with you.

Hugs, Bria

[KymberlyOct]

Hi Marcelle, I am so torn between wanting to congratulate you and wanting to express my sympathy. I cannot empathize because I am divorced due to non gender issues. It must be incredibly difficult to take this path with your wife. For that you are in my heart and prayers. Not having lived your situation perhaps the only advice I can give is from a bigger picture life perspective. I am convinced that when we make choices in life to make those close to us happy and those choices go against what we want or who we are that ultimately in the end both our loved ones and ourselves end up unhappy. We must make choices that are true to ourselves to make both our loved ones and ourselves happy in the long run. Good luck and stay strong.

[Mirya]

Marcelle, thank you for sharing such an intimate and powerful story. And I'm so sorry to hear of the pain you are experiencing.

Another possibility is that you will start HRT, decide you don't like it after all, and discontinue. And maybe your wife will be more likely to stay with you.

Just saying... Not everyone responds the same way to HRT, so you never know.

[Badtranny]

Hmmmm, this is what transition looks like.

I'm sorry Marcelle, but thank you for giving us this little glimpse.

It's so sad that finding peace requires blowing up things that we care about. I wish there was another way.

[tgirlamc]

Hi Marcelle,

I too am so sorry for the anguish you are feeling at this point...I know that no matter how things work out, time will bring you relief and healing. The bonds of our past are strong and can hold to us tightly... Sadly, they can often complicate an already complicated journey. I believe that HT will offer you a different lens with which to view things and provide you with more options on how best to proceed. Wishing you peace of mind, clarity of thought and happiness as you move ahead!

Onward We Go...

Ashley :)

[Nigella]

95% of what you have written Marcelle jibes with me, you have described my transition almost to a T. Just to give you hope, there may be a light ahead in this dark tunnel. Your wife may be able to see the real you underneath what she has expected. There are a number of ladies on this forum and in the TS world at large who accept their SO is a woman and still love them for who they are. Whilst the world may see them as lesbian, they see themselves as hetro, just loving the person they fell in love with.

:hugs:

[Tommie.]

I too am sorry for the trouble and pray for a positive change. In discussing HRT with my SO she said she was concerned the change to Tommie would turn her away and replied that has she ever considered that it was really Tommie who fell in love, married her, made 42 years with her and physically and spiritually bonded to her.... Not tom who was a shell.... She replied no she had not thought of it that way and would think about it. Please be patient and continue to love with an expectation of a positive outcome. And since we are doing old sayings a favorite of my SO and now myself is 'when a door closes a window will open'..... Huggs... Tommie

[Zooey]

I've been struggling for the past couple of hours with what I could possibly say here, especially given what's already been said by so many others.

To be completely honest, I've had mixed feelings about your "no HRT" stance in the past, and I can't say I'm surprised by this change. The changes that come from HRT can be so fundamental... That's about me though... This is about you.

I'm sorry things are so hard right now, and i understand at least some of what you're dealing with. Transition is tough, and it tests all of us (and the people who love us) in ways most people can't even imagine. I wish you and your wife nothing but the best while navigating the road ahead of you, and I hope that no matter what happens, you emerge from the other end a happier person.

[Starling]

Marcelle, my wife has never been able even to discuss my gender feelings to get a better idea of how I experience life. There has never been an opportunity for us, somewhat calmly, to talk about our future. Consequently, she is always on edge, waiting for the next shoe to drop, and I am always feeling guilty and lonely. Without telling her, I started HRT--which worked on me like nature's own tranquilizer--but stopped it a couple of months later. I am willing to trade a few years of life for a fuller life, but at that time I felt it was unfair of me to make her share that risk, for nothing but pain.

That was no solution to the problem, though. Resentment grows and grows, when one's deepest needs are not met, regardless of why; when it is to spare your loved one pain, you take on the pain yourself. I'm sorry you have reached a point of extreme conflict between your needs and your wife's; but enough women here have found a new way of being together, after the intense emotional shock has passed, and the love they have shared begins to express itself anew, to give me hope that you and your wife will once again be close.

:) Lallie

[jentay1367]

It's all so hard. My Wife says she's on board and her body language often tells me different. This journey is difficult and we keep making deals with ourselves.

From the Band "The Who"

"Keep away old man, you won't fool me
You and your history won't rule me
You might have been a fighter, but admit you failed
I'm not affected by your blackmail
You won't blackmail me"

and from the same song.........

"no easy way to be free, no easy way to be me"

more eloquent than I can manage.

Good luck to you Marcelle....good luck to all of us.

[PretzelGirl]

Marcelle, I am terribly sorry that it has come to this. A mix of emotions. The joy of moving on to HRT and the heart wrenching talk. It isn't easy and our sympathies and support are with you. It is likely no consolation, but leaving the crack open doesn't always help. I always said "I am a crossdresser and currently have no plans on transitioning" . When I said I was transitioning, I was told "you said you weren't going to do this". It is tough as we all grab on to what we want. Keep caring and keep hope and life will drive things from there. All we have been given that we can control is being our authentic selves. The rest just happens around us.

[Donnagirl]

I'm sure we all feel your pain Marcelle, so many have lived that and I was so very close. I did so hope that this news would have come in a happier way, but I know, as I'm sure you do that this is the only option. You've finally stopped swimming against the current, just turn and go with the flow.

For my wife talking to other wives really helped. Seeing relationships that have lasted decades after transition is comforting. Only you'll know what's best.

And on a lighter side, OK girls who had 1 September in the pool!

Biggest hugs hun,

Donna

[Donna Joanne]

I'm so sorry for your pain Marcelle. Even though we all have different paths our transition journey takes us to, what you describe is such a common thread to the tapestry that our lives become. My marriage only lasted 10 months after 'the talk'. She voiced the same objections that your spouse has. I hoped for a 'fairy tale ending', but wound up with the real world. My only advice is to prepare for the absolute worst and hope for the best....

My divorce will be final any day now.

[Heidi Stevens]

Hey Marcelle. The others have expressed how we are not surprised you've come to this point. The parallels between your progression and martial status to mine is uncanny. I too am trying to keep a 27 year marriage in tact while trying to progress towards transition and keep my wife happy. Your wife has helped you along the way, but now you've told her something she was not expecting. You were wise enough to realize that this decision would lead to conflict and seem to have weathered this first wave. Even so, this rift is not the way you wanted it to go, no wonder you are emotionally a wreck.
I have kept Heidi's world separate and isolated to protect our relationship. And my love has tempered any thoughts of leaving my wife for my personal gain. But I'm happy with that. My advantage is she did allow the HRT and then see how things progressed with me in her world. So far, so good. Perhaps your wife will be open to this approach as well. She should quickly see a more calm and relaxed you once the HRT is started. The physical appearance changes can be managed for a while, I'm 17 months in and presenting male is still not a problem. But we are all different, so my approach may not be your best path. I'm just suggesting that the two of you can work out a different route to happiness, you do not need to expect things to go the traditional A to B to C progression. There is a way to keep your relationship in tact, but not if you totally give up on working for a solution that makes both partners happy. Good luck my friend, I'm behind you all the way!

[KymberlyOct]

Just to put a smile on your face Marcelle for a brief moment............. Your avatar may be about the cutest thing ever :battingeyelashes:

[Rachael Leigh]

Marcelle, I've been doing some reading on the subject of being transgender and I know you with your introspective on all this have done prob way more then me, what has happend for me is I've finally come to a place that this part of us is so diverse and has so many aspects that there is just no conseneses on why this happens.

Your situation fits a lot of these things I've been reading about and I want to say how much I hurt for girls like yourself who find they have to make such a difficult decision and go this route. For whatever reason some like myself and others who can manage this by just dressing and going out and presenting are very fortunate we can go back to male mode after a time.
I know that being more on the side you are on the thinking and emotions are very different but yet the understanding of needing to be right with oneself do seem alike in many ways.
I will say I don't fully understand your situation and why your making this decision but I want you to know I will say a prayer for you my friend as you continue to make decisions on all this and I pray you will find your peace with it.
Leigh

[KellyJameson]

For a TS woman who has not transitioned a symptom or condition if you prefer is to live with oppression. The circumstances create the condition of oppression just as severe as anything an individual or group usually associated with oppression has experienced.

To understand gender dysphoria you must understand oppression. Transitioning frees the person from oppression to the degree they experience themselves as a woman.

You begin to feel real (have substance " I am" " I exist" ) and free ( genuine/authentic) for the first time in your life.

Unlike others who are oppressed by groups this oppression is imposed by the body and by extension how this sexed body must live, which is contrary to what is natural for the person who lives within this sexed body.

Transitioning gives you the means to an end. It is both escape from oppression and the birth of possibilities that would not be possible otherwise.

[Suzanne F]

Marcelle,
Like some of the others I have been expecting this. You and I started this almost exactly the same time and we both have worked hard to keep our marriages. However, we have both chosen to stay alive and face our issue. It's not fair and I accept that. I hate that for your family too!
Tonight my wife is with me. However, it could end tomorrow. So like you I do the best I can while I work at being the real me. I cannot control outcomes. I wish I had some way to help. I guess I can just offer to be here. You will not go through this alone. Someday I am going to give you such a big hug. You were my first sister here ! Please be good to yourself.
Yours,
Suzanne

[Marcelle]

Hello everyone,

Firstly thanks for all your shared experience and support during this very hard time. Yesterday, I just needed to keep my head down and bury myself in some project where I could maintain distance between my wife and myself and give her time to process. Late in the afternoon she came out to where I was working and indicated she was ready to talk . . . I was not looking forward to this. She was armed this time with information she had garnered from the internet (my recommendation) and we proceeded to discuss the depth of my dysphoria. I do want to be clear with everyone, I still like my body as it is . . . yup physiologically I am male but that is my cross to bear. However it is my body and I know how it reacts to what I do with it. Changing fundamental aspects of that is not something I would take lightly and to be honest the potential physical changes are not something I am seeking. I only want to quell the chaotic thought patterns which are slowing creeping back into what was once a stable mind.

With the above in mind and fully explained to my wife, her concerns were that the potential physical changes may result in her not seeing the person she knew and not being able to reconcile that in her own mind. I explained that the changes differ from person to person and while some are consistent (breast development, body fat distribution) it is still a genetic crap shoot on what comes out. If I look at my sisters and mother, they are all small chested, narrow hipped with athletic frames and it is likely my changes will mimic their body type just a bit more south of male. Facial feature softening is a probability but then again at shy of 53 and all that testosterone in my body for so many years, it is likely the softening will be minimal. She understood that but was still frightened and asked (rightly so) if I don't welcome the changes myself then why put myself through it? She was correct, I don't welcome the changes and if that makes me a bad trans woman then so be it but I need to calm the chaos and this is the only way I can see it happening. We were once again at a stalemate and things went silent . . .

I thought that was it and she was now prepared to drop the hammer. Surprisingly she did not. She said that if this is something I have to do then she will go forward with me but she cannot make any promises once the physical changes start. That was a big step for her and one I did not take lightly as she was in essence gambling everything. So to reciprocate and again if this makes me a bad trans woman then so be it , I let her know during my last physical (last year) my testosterone levels were extremely high for a male my age, in fact a bit too high. So I promised that when I go for my appointment I would explore the option of androgen blockers only to bring my t-levels down to see if that can help quell the chaos. No promises that it will, but at least I could try . . . she was trying so I owe her the same courtesy. As an added surprise she agreed that I should move forward with change of "gender designation" on my documentation. The name change is in process but the gender marker was a bit of a sticking point for her. I don't know perhaps she was throwing that out as a consolation prize but that is another big step for her and I truly believe it was genuine.

So this is where we stand now. I will move forward exploring the effects of androgen blockers only to see if that can calm the chaos. If it does not then perhaps I will have to move forward and accept the changes I do not desire. If people are curious why I do not seek physical change I can provide some context. My body has been through a lot over the past ten years including an IED strike which demolished my vehicle, fractured my lower back and right femur as well as scrambling my insides along with various other combat related injuries doing damage internally which even today is still healing. I spent over two years rebuilding my physical and have grown quite attached to it . . . call it a badge of honor, pride or whatever . . . it was a hard road but I made it out and in a way I am not prepared to give that up. If in the end I have to accept that full HRT is the only way forward then I will but I have to at least try this road first. I hope all of you can understand that. :)

Cheers all

Marcelle

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I can understand it...i really hope things work out for you..
your honesty and good nature are huge plusses and will get you through the toughest situations..

that being said (hammer drops...heh)

i'd simply say you cannot negotiate or control gender dysphoria... it boxes you in...just it like it already has done to you.... the way you handled your presentation is a good example...you cannot predict the course of GD.

i'm with you 100% on going slow and i have no idea where you will end up.. but you are holding on tight to something about maleness for whatever reason, and GD will not let you get away with it...

I think your plan and ideas are postiive and constructive...dont take it the wrong way... but no more promises( you already found that out), and i have to tell you that my gut reaction is you are better off being wide OPEN to anything, allowing your thinking mind to consider your options fully and openly...that includes everything.... my experience was fighting it in any way just made it worse..

sometimes its hard to express what i'm trying to say and it sounds harsh but i really feel you holding on so tightly to things is a big risk of making GD worse..and thus making things harder than neccessary for everyone

[tgirlamc]

Marcelle!

What a wonderful post to wake up to! I am happy you can see a path that will move things forward for you...Onward we go!!!!....

[arbon]

I guess I don't understand. You like your male body and don't want to change it but want hrt to calm the dysphoria. What is causing the dysphoria if not being unhappy being a woman with a male body?

[Marcelle]

snip . . . I think your plan and ideas are postiive and constructive...dont take it the wrong way... but no more promises( you already found that out), and i have to tell you that my gut reaction is you are better off being wide OPEN to anything, allowing your thinking mind to consider your options fully and openly...that includes everything.... my experience was fighting it in any way just made it worse . . . snip sometimes its hard to express what i'm trying to say and it sounds harsh but i really feel you holding on so tightly to things is a big risk of making GD worse..and thus making things harder than neccessary for everyone

Hi Kaitlyn,

You are correct . . . no more promises which is what we (my wife and I) agreed to. I can only tell her what I know/feel at any given time with no understanding of where end game may be for me. She agrees with that and has made no promises to remain should things just get too difficult for her. Will the androgen blockers only work? Can't answer that but I guess I have to try. BTW you did not come off as harsh . . . realistic yes . . . harsh no :)


I guess I don't understand. You like your male body and don't want to change it but want hrt to calm the dysphoria. What is causing the dysphoria if not being unhappy being a woman with a male body?

Hi Arbon,

Fair question and one I will try to answer but I am not sure if it will make sense. Am I woman? Yes, I know that in my core. Do I feel trapped in a male body? No but, then that is assuming that gender dysphoria stems from body dysmorphia in each person's case. My dysphoria is not driven by my appearance, my masculine features masculine build and with the exception of body hair issues, I have no problems with how I look, present, appear or whatnot to the outside world. My presentation screams . . . male, trans, whatever but I am fine with that. It is who I am and like any woman . . . it is the body I need to live with and make the best of. My dysphoria comes from an internal sense of self and how I define myself. I may live 24/7 as a woman, have/will change my documentation to define me legally as a woman but sometimes my thoughts are still chaotic and in essence still very male. In my opinion it has nothing to do with what is between my legs or how I look. It does however have everything to do with how I feel mentally and emotionally. Sometimes I feel fine other times I do not but again, it is not me looking in the mirror wishing I looked more feminine, it is about emotions, thoughts and being (for me).

Is this odd? I suppose. Do I not conform to the trans checklist? I suppose. Does it make me odd, wrong, a poser, confused? I guess you could argue that point. However, it cannot negate that I am woman anymore than anyone here cannot argue the same. Perhaps I am still in denial and some day I will feel differently and want to go all the way to end game. Then again perhaps I won't. Perhaps the androgen blockers will lower my testosterone enough to calm the racing thoughts. Perhaps it is about chemistry and the high levels of testosterone are messing with a sense of calm?

Cheers all

Marcelle

[arbon]

Am I woman? Yes, I know that in my core


My presentation screams . . . male, trans, whatever but I am fine with that.

I do want to be clear with everyone, I still like my body as it is



My dysphoria comes from an internal sense of self and how I define myself. I may live 24/7 as a woman, have/will change my documentation to define me legally as a woman but sometimes my thoughts are still chaotic and in essence still very male.

It does sound like a very messed up chaotic and confusing way to live. Your between being a man or a woman, trying to be both and neither at the same time. Can you feel whole, complete that way?
Keep working on it, trying to sort it out and make some sense of all this. Figure out who you are.

[Zooey]

My presentation screams . . . male, trans, whatever but I am fine with that. It is who I am and like any woman . . . it is the body I need to live with and make the best of.

Except that it's not like any woman, and it's not the body you need to live with? For one thing, having a cross-sex body from your identity is very different from having an aligned body with issues you need to work to accept. I started with a cross-sex body that caused me great discomfort, and I now have a woman's body that I need to learn to love. I can say from experience that they are very different things.

For another, you have an option for bringing your body far more inline with your identity, both functionally and aesthetically. I think that choosing not to take it says a lot more about you and where you are with your identity than you might think.


Is this odd? I suppose. Do I not conform to the trans checklist? I suppose. Does it make me odd, wrong, a poser, confused? I guess you could argue that point.

That fact that you like your body is very odd, IMO. Do you conform to a trans checklist? Depends. In the umbrella sense? There's no checklist. In the "I'm a woman" sense? I have a lot of feelings about that... It's complicated, and discussing it gets potentially hurtful in a hurry.

Still, I really wonder whether you actually like your body, or whether you're just stuck in a hostage situation where rather than negotiating for freedom, you're hoping that negotiating for sandwiches will make you feel good enough.

[Starling]

...she agreed that I should move forward with change of "gender designation" on my documentation. The name change is in process but the gender marker was a bit of a sticking point for her...

That's an effing big deal, Marcelle; she is agreeing to be married to a woman. Meanwhile, wow! What a powerful reason you have for loving your body as it is.

:) Lallie

[Bria]

Marcelle, I glad to hear that your wife is willing to stick with you as you move forward, at least for now. And your go slow approach is, I believe, an appropriate response. I hope it works out for you and your wife. I will continue to remember you in my prayers.

Hugs, Bria

[Marcelle]

Hmmm . . . to be honest Zooey/Arbon, I needed to calm myself before responding. I do thank you for your observations and in-depth analysis of my psyche and soul. It is comforting to have people who know me so well from the brief glimpse of what I post here. Oh I know you are going to say, it is tough love, experience, been there done that got the t-shirt . . . I get that. However, as much as you think you got me figured out to be honest . . . you don't know me, you don't know what I go through or how I live my life. Okay, I posted something here and I expected honest responses and you provided . . . we are five by five now. So let me be honest in my reply back to you.





snip . . . Your between being a man or a woman, trying to be both and neither at the same time.

Arbon,

Thanks much for an off handed way of telling me I am not authentic . . . neither a woman or man . . . very nice. So I suppose in order to conform to your idea of what a woman is I have to what . . . alter my body chemistry, grow breasts, remove my penis? Why? Because you did and that is the only way forward. Am I confused? Sure, but I don't think there is a soul here who has not been confused or is now confused. However my decisions are such that I make them to deal with real life and the feelings of those around me . . . I don't think that makes me messed up.



Zooey,


snip . . . Except that it's not like any woman, and it's not the body you need to live with? For one thing, having a cross-sex body from your identity is very different from having an aligned body with issues you need to work to accept. I started with a cross-sex body that caused me great discomfort, and I now have a woman's body that I need to learn to love. I can say from experience that they are very different things.

Note the highlighted "I did this, I did that, I believe". You are you, I am me and what you believe is the only way forward is what is good for you. Not once have I gravitated here and accused anyone of not knowing what they are doing based on how I choose to handle my transition. Yet you shoot foot loose and fancy free with myself and others because you believe you have an in-depth perspective on what it means to be a woman. While you are most certainly entitled to your opinion and certainly entitled to espouse how messed up I am . . . it has an undertone of arrogance so it is not well meaning.


I think that choosing not to take it says a lot more about you and where you are with your identity than you might think..

Please enlighten me since you have me figured out so perfectly. Are you saying because I cannot commit then I have no right calling myself a woman? I am fake, a fraud? I live this each day the same as you, I am out the world the same as you and I work as a woman each day in an a very tough environment to be so . . . same as you. However, you seem to believe that because I have not altered myself in some manner it what . . . makes me less authentic than you. Nice . . . very nice.


That fact that you like your body is very odd, IMO. Do you conform to a trans checklist? Depends. In the umbrella sense? There's no checklist. In the "I'm a woman" sense? I have a lot of feelings about that... It's complicated, and discussing it gets potentially hurtful in a hurry.

I am glad I am just "odd" and not "messed up" . . . whew. I am fully aware of your feelings on the subject as it quite evident in your responses that unless you follow the same path as you . . . you can never be a woman in your eyes.



Still, I really wonder whether you actually like your body, or whether you're just stuck in a hostage situation where rather than negotiating for freedom, you're hoping that negotiating for sandwiches will make you feel good enough.

I am going to cut you some slack on this one in that you were not implying that somehow my wife is some horrible harpy holding me hostage. However if that was your intent . . . you are way out of line.

I make decisions which affect my life and yes I do have to take into account those around me. I don't know what choices you have made in your life so I can't speak to your experience but I have had to make life and death decisions both for myself and others. This is no different . . . did I take the fact that I was preparing to destroy the life of someone I loved into my decision making matrix? You bet. Does that mean I may have to eat some sandwiches while I move forward? Likely. However that is my decision. What don't you get about the fact that I don't feel the need to alter my body? Seriously you talk about crossed sexed bodies like there is a how to guide on being trans. So by your definition someone who goes on HRT but does not have GCS is what . . . not true to themselves? I guess since you have not had GCS yet you would probably cut them slack but I also suspect once you do . . . well just saying . . . all those only on HRT won't pass your high standard of being trans and definitely not being a woman.

Marcelle

[Zooey]

Marcelle...

At the end of the day, I am just a talking head on the internet. I have a certain perspective based on my experiences, and that's where I respond from. I actually didn't want to get too direct, because, more than anything else, you confuse the hell out of me. I have no desire to hurt you, and so I apologize if I did.

Let me be clear about my perspective, because clearly dancing around it doesn't do any good, and that way you can feel fine ignoring everything I say. I don't believe in the idea of "trans" as an umbrella concept - I think it's silly, and renders the term meaningless. The umbrella definition certainly isn't the opposite of "cis", which is what "trans" actually means. I don't believe in "social dysphoria" without "body dysphoria". To my mind, a male-bodied person comfortable with (and especially enjoying) having a male body is more or less the definition of a cisgender male. Being gender non-conforming is not the same thing as being transexual, no matter how extremely gender non-conforming you may be.

I put a lot of stock in HRT. Two years ago, I wouldn't have said the things I said today. It's not because I got meaner in that time period; it's because I have seen firsthand how fundamentally different my relationship with my body and the outside world is due to HRT. Testosterone fundamentally changes so many things. I literally don't think the way I used to - I can't. I certainly don't feel the way I used to (or used to NOT feel, as the case may be). Being perceived as female a large percentage of the time, rather than perceived as a "trans male", has changed the way people treat me, which has shifted my perspective on a lot of things.

A lot of trans people (both by my definition and otherwise) disagree with me on lots of that... You should feel 100% free to do so as well. I won't be offended; to the contrary, I don't feel good about feeling the way I do, but it is what it is.

Look, I think you are an incredibly genuine, authentic person. I have never thought anything to the contrary. I do not think of you as a man. I struggle to think of you as a woman though, at least in the same way as most of the women I know (cis and trans), for the reasons above. It's entirely likely that that's MY problem.


I am going to cut you some slack on this one in that you were not implying that somehow my wife is some horrible harpy holding me hostage. However if that was your intent . . . you are way out of line.

I did not mean it that way. If anybody is holding you hostage in my metaphor, it's yourself. It's always ourselves who do it.


So by your definition someone who goes on HRT but does not have GCS is what . . . not true to themselves? I guess since you have not had GCS yet you would probably cut them slack but I also suspect once you do . . . well just saying . . . all those only on HRT won't pass your high standard of being trans and definitely not being a woman.

It's an arbitrary thing, and I get that, but I can say that I have a lot less trouble relating to people who choose not to get GCS than I do people who are not on HRT. For one, compared to HRT, the medical risks are HUGE. For two, I don't interact with their genitals, so I don't care. I DO interact with their hormones though, constantly. I interact with them via their actual body, and how I perceive them by default without having to engage my conscious brain and remind myself. I interact with them through responding to certain things in a way that feels shared. I interact with them through having certain shared experiences of development. In my experience, HRT changes SO MUCH.

Is all of that unfair? Sure. Is it real? As far as I can tell, and in my experience (and the experience of lots of other women I know)... Absolutely.

Listen... Be well, and be you, whatever you believe that to be. You don't need my approval.

[arbon]

I think you are authentic. But your not unique. I thought you might be until I read this thread. A bad ass woman doing it her way transitioning without any medical help. Now though, your story and path are sounding much like most other transitioned woman's stories.

- - - Updated - - -

And just for the record I've never said all that medical stuff that we do is what makes us women.

[Badtranny]

this is fun

Marcelle, I loved your reply to the girls, (cuz I love a fighter) but I have to say that I'm a little taken aback by the defensiveness. You are smart enough to know what defensiveness usually means, so I'll spare you the lecture, but let me at least try to adjust your perspective a little.

You have been roundly accepted and mostly admired by this current crop of post transition gals around here. Basically, you're in the tribe, and when you say stuff that makes the tribe uncomfortable, they start beating the drums a bit. This is to be expected right? We come here to share our tales of transition and sometimes we challenge each other's perceptions of what a transition really is.

Your recent revelations are fascinating to me, but to most of the girls it means something is wrong. Maybe everything is fine, but maybe it's not, and maybe the challenge to your stated position will cause you to reexamine that position. Maybe it won't. Who knows, but I think the important thing here is that we all remain honest with each other. How do we preach the value of authenticity in transition, and then look the other way when one of our own goes off the reservation?

You are saying things that don't make sense to most of us, and intellectual honesty pretty much demands that we say so. My advice to you, (in regards to this forum anyway) is to relax and not take it personally. It's just commentary after all, and at the end of the day, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Just keep keepin' it real, and appreciate that these girls will too. We're not all gonna agree on everything, ya know. :-)

[LeaP]

Theresa's comment was quite sympathetic, Marcelle.

[Brooklyn]

Marcelle, are you thinking you could take spiro or some other t-blocker without taking estradiol? Check it out with your endo but I don't think that's safe and you will probably feel really fatigued and angry all the time. I read that eventually you can have liver and bone density issues. So take care of yourself and do what the doctor says!

Estradiol valerate is my best friend; I feel so much better on HRT than I did years ago before transition. You can still workout, chop firewood, and be just as athletic as you want. I hear it eventually makes you a foxy genius also.:battingeyelashes:

[Marcelle]

Okay . . . so as not to come off defensive I want go back to my original aspect of the post . . . paying everything to get through this.

If I had posted . . . my wife and I had a talk and irrespective of her wants, her hopes and her pleas, I have decided to not compromise and just wreck havoc on her life after 28 years of standing by me through some serious stuff (trans issues aside), discussion would have gone a whole different way. There would have been sympathy for the loss and lots of congrats on moving forward - smiley face and thumbs up emojis all around. However, the advance would have progressed forward but unfortunately there is always collateral damage and that would have been my wife. She is the one who was called to Germany to basically say goodbye after the IED strike, she is the one who watched me struggle to learn to walk again, she is one who watched me struggle through PTSD due to all the abhorrent things I had to do in the name of democracy, and now this and she never batted an eye or offered an ill word in my direction. I pushed and I pushed and nothing . . . until now. So yes, you are all right . . . if things were different, if she wasn't in my life I would be down the HRT road quicker than you can say "one, two, three" and I would beat your count of three. I could have, she gave me the out during our conversation and when I appeared to waiver in that direction . . . I watched the light of joy that has been my rock for the past ten years, bleed from her eyes. It was like someone reached inside of her and took her soul away. I am sure some of you have been there and seen that and still moved forward with your transition. Perhaps you are made of stronger stuff or perhaps I am just a coward. However in the end, I came to the best compromise I could to give her time to adjust. We all make decisions and guess what . . . sometimes you don't always get what you want. Sometimes doing the right thing is the hard choice and yes . . . I will pay for it. Most likely I will spiral into an abyss of misery and perhaps one day pay the Ferryman his toll . . . which he should have collected long ago . . . it would have been easier than this misery.

Arbon . . . I spoke in haste and after a re-read of your post I realize it was coming from a place of kindness not facetiousness. My apologies as I have nothing but the utmost respect for you.

Zooey . . . some of things I said were uncalled and from a place of darkness which I now live in. I hate that part of me but it seems to be coming more prevalent these days and where I land . . . well I guess we'll see. I do apologize if I offended and likewise I respect you and your opinion. You said I could be honest with you so I will. I don't agree with your stance on what constitutes a woman when it comes to those of us who choose to transition. You stated that you don't have a problem with those who choose not to undergo GCS because you are not interacting with their genitals. However, those on HRT you interact with on a hormonal level because you see them more as a woman. I am sorry, I have seen plenty of post HRT women and some have no physical change of note so I am not sure what you are talking about unless you are implying you can sense one another on some neurochemical level? Regardless, to me your argument holds as much logic as those women of TERF who imply we are not real women because we don't have an understanding of the female shared consciousness because we experienced male privilege at some point in our lives so by definition we cannot be women. It is a hurtful argument to those of us who choose a different path or don't reach the same headspace and timing you are currently in.

Look folks, I am going to back away from things for awhile as I have in this instance "paid everything" to keep my relationship in tact. Is it the right decision? Can't say but, it is the hard choice I have made. Will it be my undoing? The balance of probability says . . . yes and I will cross that path when I get there. I hold you all in deep respect. No I am not running for the hills I just need to work through this and I truly believe my path confuses too many here for any understanding or kindred spirit. So I will navigate this rocky point on my own and perhaps it will be everything I have this time or perhaps I will come out the other end unscathed . . . time will tell.

Marcelle

[Mirya]

Marcelle,

Your situation is definitely very confusing to me. I have good friends who have been on HRT for many, many years, who are still married with supportive wives. But they do not live full-time. They take HRT as it eases their mental anxiety (other anti-depressants and medications did not work for them). But again, they are part-time. You on the other hand... you're already full-time, without having started HRT... which is highly unusual.

Who are you really? What are you really? Who can say? HRT will help to answer that question in due time, I'm sure. As Zooey said, it tends to have a very profound effect - on everything. You are definitely on the right path to figuring yourself out for who you really are... Good luck and all the best to you! :)

[nikkiwindsor]

Marcelle,

I'm hoping and praying all the best for you and your wife as you guys traverse the challenges that lie ahead. The two of you are tough people who have a proven track record for surmounting enormous difficulties. And I'm inspired and learning from the life experiences you're sharing with our community.

Nikki

[KymberlyOct]

Marcelle, When you read this now or in the future I want to tell you although we do not communicate directly I read your posts regularly. I find you to be intelligent, courageous and honest with us. In my opinion your last post was the most honest you have been with yourself - at least for our consumption. I wish you nothing but the best and your wife as well.

[Zooey]

I don't agree with your stance on what constitutes a woman when it comes to those of us who choose to transition. You stated that you don't have a problem with those who choose not to undergo GCS because you are not interacting with their genitals. However, those on HRT you interact with on a hormonal level because you see them more as a woman. I am sorry, I have seen plenty of post HRT women and some have no physical change of note so I am not sure what you are talking about unless you are implying you can sense one another on some neurochemical level? Regardless, to me your argument holds as much logic as those women of TERF who imply we are not real women because we don't have an understanding of the female shared consciousness because we experienced male privilege at some point in our lives so by definition we cannot be women. It is a hurtful argument to those of us who choose a different path or don't reach the same headspace and timing you are currently in.

So, I'm not gonna lie, "passing" is part of it. I'm not proud of it, but it's unquestionably true. Remember, though, that passing is not the same as being conventionally pretty or beautiful. I have yet to meet anybody on HRT who did not feminize substantially, and that includes a number of older (than me at least) transitioners. Not everybody is the prettiest girl in the world (I certainly don't think I am), but they all look a lot more feminine than they did pre-HRT (and it's not the makeup - I know makeup).

I wish I could explain it to you better than I did, but my relationship with other women AS women does happen on a lower level, and it's a combination of about a million things. I guess the best thing I can say is... Do whatever you're going to do. If you end up on HRT, talk to me 6-12 months after you start, and we can discuss all the things that surely haven't changed from your perspective.

Here's the secret about TERFs, btw... They're wrong, and actively so, about a few things, in some very fundamental ways, and I could go on and on and on about that. I don't like 'em. That said, they're not wrong about everything. Female socialization DOES affect people, as does male socialization. Male privilege is legit, and the vast majority of us (especially "late" transitioners) absolutely benefitted from it in one way or another. Experiencing life as a woman - that is to say, being treated as a woman - IS different from living/being treated as trans. Lastly, and most importantly, men are disproportionately responsible for the oppression of, and violence against, women. TERFs focus on the penis (whether it's still there or not), and I think that's a mistake. I focus on testosterone, because personal experience tells me THAT's where the vast majority of the aggression and the physical advantage comes from. I would not expect anybody - trans or cis - who hasn't felt that change for themselves to appreciate the incredible contrast between running on testosterone and running on estrogen, but that experience has shaped my view on what that change means and how important it is.

[jaleecd]

Marcelle
I hope you show your post to your wife, so that She understands the loving heart that holds her emotional well being foremost in the decisions her warrior Princess is trying to make. You will make the best choices for your family. you could not do otherwise. I pray peace for you both.

[Marcelle]

So, I'm not gonna lie, "passing" is part of it. I'm not proud of it, but it's unquestionably true . . . snip . . . I wish I could explain it to you better than I did, but my relationship with other women AS women does happen on a lower level, and it's a combination of about a million things . . . snip . . .

Here's the secret about TERFs, btw... They're wrong, and actively so, about a few things, in some very fundamental ways, and I could go on and on and on about that. I don't like 'em . . . snip . . . TERFs focus on the penis (whether it's still there or not), and I think that's a mistake. I focus on testosterone, because personal experience tells me THAT's where the vast majority of the aggression and the physical advantage comes from. I would not expect anybody - trans or cis - who hasn't felt that change for themselves to appreciate the incredible contrast between running on testosterone and running on estrogen, but that experience has shaped my view on what that change means and how important it is.

Zooey,

My intent was not to get drawn into another crossing of pens and just leave with whatever grace I have left . . . however I cannot let this one go. So, I will throw my graceless self back into this diatribe.

You have a very strong opinion on what constitutes being a woman and seem to attach some sort of "them/us" litmus test. If you are on HRT then you belong to the "Joy Luck Club". If you are not then you will never understand because you can't. So by your definition, a person who is part-time on HRT is a woman even though they present male from time to time. They would feel the "feminine call" the same as you . . . running on estrogen I believe is your mark of measure? Yet you have openly posted that these folks are not being authentic so they cannot claim the title of woman. You a draw a distinction between TERFs and yourself yet you use the same "exclusionary" rhetoric they use . . . "you can't be a woman because you are not like me" . . . that is what their argument comes down to and that is what your argument comes down to. When somebody calls you on it . . . well you just trot out some mythical aspect and say "see . . . we are different . . . now fall from sight." So when it comes right down to it, all this being authentic stuff we talk about is all BS? You can only be authentic if you are like me or like her.

I came to this site three years ago to find kinship because I was floundering badly. I found it on the other side and as things progressed I found it on this side. However, it now appears that kinship only goes as far as your hormones for you and what the balance of probabilities would dictate others as well. So you keep us "odd ducks" around for amusement, to make yourself feel good because you are one step further and that makes you more of a woman? I worked in an environment where people thought they were "special" based solely on self perceived sense of uniqueness and it didn't make sense to me anymore than what you are saying makes sense. But that could just be me.

However, in my world we have a saying "you choose the hill you want to die on". This is not one. So Zooey . . . you win. You are a woman and I am just a delusional man who belongs nowhere. Now before anyone accuses me of being a sore sport, defensive or whatnot . . . folks I am tired. I have fought my entire life. I have fought against who I am (trans) repressing to the point of self-harm, I fought against demons which still haunt my dreams because of my job, I fought against significant physical injuries, I fought against hurtful comments and physical attack once I came out of the closet and now I am fighting against people in my own community from whom I am just looking for a bit of support to prop me up during a difficult time only to be told by some . . . take a hike buddy . . . no boys allowed. Now folks I get the whole "tough love" thing and I will be the first to admit I used it myself on this very forum. However, sometimes people flounder and are just looking for a bit support or a kind reset. So to have someone bull forward and tell you that you really don't belong because you are not like them . . . it hurts, hurts a lot.


I consider myself a rather tough person but even tough people have limits and I have reached mine. I am tired of having to choose between hurting the one bright aspect of my life (my wonderful wife) and me. I am tired of trying to feel like I belong somewhere and have kinship with somebody only to be told I don't. So you win Zooey . . . I am just an ugly old white dude who has no right to call himself a woman because I will never understand what that means because I am sporting a non-feminine face, a masculine body and less we forget testosterone. Your heart, your soul, you very being has nothing to do with it . . . only what you can see and measure by some standard set by yourself.

So I am tired and will meander down the path to shoulder this burden alone and perhaps fate will be kind and I will pay the Ferryman his last due before I hurt anyone else.

Regards

Marcelle

[STACY B]

Yep I have seen this deal play out time and time again and I am not immune to it ether. I always lay in wait for my turn at the Dreaded talk,, And I know down deep that my day will come. But as for the bit of a Frickus going on between the two on the Boards here that Testosterone talking to Estrogen ,, So I pay no attention to all of that,, It will fix itself once the right medication is provided ,,lol,,,

Read what she said in the beggining,, The MAN is talking through her and tring to hold on to the last bit of it, And a soldier at that, So after it's all said and done the right meds will take the wind out of HER SAILS,,lol

[Heidi Stevens]

Marcelle, I for one have your back, Sis! You are looking for answers and some support, not rejection and ridecule. There are good Samaritans out here and we will help you and anyone else anyway we can, as positively as we can. So don't give up on your quest to resolve your struggles. I sure don't have all the answers, but I'm not going to leave someone behind to be picked on by the vultures, when I'm on the same path. Remain positive and things will resolve themselves. PM me if you need some support, but so far you're doing petty good defending yourself. And defending yourself is something we shouldn't have to do on this site.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

.........................................


I am tired of having to choose between hurting the one bright aspect of my life (my wonderful wife) and me. I am tired of trying to feel like I belong somewhere and have kinship with somebody only to be told I don't. ...........

So I am tired and will meander down the path to shoulder this burden alone and perhaps fate will be kind and I will pay the Ferryman his last due before I hurt anyone else.

Regards

Marcelle

Welcome to the club...
I got very tired too
but unfortunately you dont get to decide Marcelle... thats what its about.. you are who you are no matter what you or I or anybody says... sounds so trite, but we all know how NOT trite it is...

it goes both ways remember.... when person A says "i had to transition or die" or "i had to transition" and person B says "i love my wife too much to transition".... there are 2 sides of pain..
how do you think it feels to me, who lost my job, my wife, had to earn back her trust and respect (cuz i was a big time liar/promiser for a while) when someone says they love their family too much..
too much for what?

it feels horrible to me still...i had to choose, and in the end it felt like no choice..
an unfair emotional response of mine would be "i guess Person A is better than me"...she was stronger.... she loved her wife more than i did and so she didnt transition...

i actually dont feel that way anymore but i used to..
and as a pragmatic analyzing math head.... when you say to your wife, "hey all i can do is be honest , and see where this goes". you've already crossed the huge line... this gender problem is highest priority.,..you cant have two highest priorities... an understanding and loving wife has the choice to stay and support or not, but she has to accept that until the GD is beat, she is #2...its brutal and its true




anyway when i hear your story i think its most likely going to be that you will end up having no choice...
i feel for you because you are doing your own version of coping/denying/prevaricating/negotiating...etc.... the only thing that works is progress towards yourself...the GD comes when that is not happening for you...it drifts away with progress...


You are doing exactly what many of us did...

When you say some of the things you say about what you desire and what you are going to do, i dont really beleive it...because i've seen it so many times...
when pretty much every attempt to go part way is met with initial success and then it morphs into GD and wanting "more"..I've seen it so many times..

i know you beleive it , because i've seen it so many times...

like i said, my constructive answer is to stay OPEN... this is your best chance to skate through the way YOU want to... who cares what fricking tribe i'm in or you're in..

This is brutal..you are doing great...keep doing it your way, as best you can...

[jentay1367]

And defending yourself is something we shouldn't have to do on this site.

I don't think that's happening here. We spend a lifetime justifying things. You don't need this site or these people or their permission to transition or not transition. Regardless of the path we choose, we chose it. Without some opportunity for introspection and soul searching, what may be the purpose of this place? Cheerleading for transition or not transitioning should not be the purpose of this place any more than your therapist should be unequivocally telling you that you are or are not TS. The women here who have fought the monster and won are merely sharing their experiences in an effort to show you where the land mines are so you don't get body parts blown off.....least ways not until you're ready. In the long run, this place should be a forum for finding the right questions to ask yourself. It seems it serves that purpose quite well.

[Zooey]

Sigh... Marcelle, I am one person on the Internet, not the international arbiter of womanhood. Just because I don't understand the situation you say you're in, that doesn't mean it isn't real. All it means is that I'm not going to validate it. If you are certain about what you want and/or need to do, then just do it. Live your damn life, be you, and dont look to others (least of all me) for validation.

In time, you may find out that you were right about some things, and wrong about others. I will almost certainly do the same.

Good luck, and I'm going to shut up now.

[Nigella]

This thread highlights some of the issues our community faces. Marcelle is herself to keep the one person who means more to her, at this point in time, than she is trying to be the woman she is. She is attempting to bring herself some calm in the face of turmoil. I can see her point of view because I did not do the "typical" transition path, I can see the point of view of those who do not "understand" her situation.

Unfortunately, whilst the words typed on these pages are not posted, in the main, to hurt, a persons own circumstances and feelings at the time of reading can and do get mistaken in their intent.

Marcelle, you need to follow your own heart and take whatever you can from the words typed on these pages, the rest of us need to understand the pressures Marcelle is under at the moment trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

[Georgette_USA]

Marcelle

I usually stay out of discussions when involved with marriages. Never was may never be.

Only been here a short time, and have listened to your tales. Felt that it takes a very determined woman to eschew all the HRT-SRS route, and you seemed to be doing it very well. I cannot fully understand your dilemma, between your love with your wife and the need to become more of the woman you are. So many I know have had bad marriage endings, but others that are still involved with their wives, not as husband and wife but as friends, even still living in the same house.

I come from another time and circumstances. Back then the few that I knew always worked to HRT-SRS and just live their life again. After coming back to this community, I had to re-learn and re-think many things. Pre-Op / Post-Op / and even Non-Op. To me it made NO sense to be Non-Op. But I have learned to listen to all. I still know some that feel if you don't go all the way to SRS that you are not authentic.

I hope you stay with us, as I like to hear all peoples perspectives.

[KellyJameson]

Human beings fall on a very wide spectrum. One of these spectrums is mental health versus mental illness, which no person can really define for another.

One persons madness is anothers inner peace. It is extremely personal.

It is my opinion that transitioning is a search for health and an attempt to attain it. A form of healing and escape from disease . A movement from illness toward health "if it takes the person toward truth and away from illusion " as defined and known by them and for them.

Transitioning is a form of reality testing.

Let this be the measure of yourself as a woman.

Forums are often places where people congregate because they have nowhere else to go. Reddit anyone?

The members jockey for position and status to the degree they do not have it in real life. This makes for a toxic stew. Be careful when exposing yourself to this. Especially when transitioning in any definition of the word because this is a time when you are very vulnerable.

I could not live halfway between the world of man and woman because that was the very thing I needed to escape from. I was born into this halfway world and it made me sick. I could not understand when others talked about living in this world intentionally as partial transition because it was the world I needed to escape from.

It does not make them wrong or right, just different from me. When you meet a TS woman you have only met one TS woman. She is not the definition of all TS women or what makes a woman and this is true for all women and men. No one person defines what all others are.

I'm not interested in what makes a woman or not for others. I'm interested in what makes me "me" and becoming it. It was a search for authenticity and escape from pretending to be what I was not for others.

This required a physical transition so that the vessel that housed my soul and spirit matched this spirit and soul. I needed a pureness without contradiction. I could not live with the contradictions that split me apart from myself.

Try to ignore what others think and what principles they use for defining what is and what is not. Their reality is not yours and when you support what they think and believe you risk sacrificing yourself at a time when you are fragile from a changing identity.

There is no community or tribe. There is just you searching for self and health. Living in a world that will use you if you play by their rules or cast you aside if you do not.

Ignore the noise of those who think they can define what is or is not a woman or man. You have your identity. You now know that you are a woman. Of all the possible steps in transitioning this is in my opinion the most crucial.

Don't let anyone take this knowledge of self from you in their immoral attempt to hold onto theirs because they will gladly sacrifice you to save themselves. They need you to believe what they believe so they do not lose themselves and when you do not it causes them anxiety.

This "knowing" is where mental health grows out of.

Follow it to the degree you need to and you will find health on the otherside.

[Starling]

I've given myself more s*** than anyone else ever gave me. I think that's true for most of us. Face it, we all got screwed by Mother Nature, whom it's not nice to fool.* And as "survivors" of this cosmic effing joke, we are exhausted by the war against ourselves before combat is truly engaged. Sometimes we just crave a little unconditional love, even if it's abstract, because we desperately need some relief from the endless dissonance.

:) Lallie

*See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijVijP-CDVI

[jentay1367]

I've been on a large dosage of AA and IM Estradiol for 3 months now. What differences have I experienced? Few, if any. Will I, at a later date? who the heck knows. Haven't yet though. This is to let you know Marcelle, that if you start HRT....don't expect much in the short term (90 days for me)....and who the heck knows in the long run?? I reiterate, I'm no more sensitive, giving, loving, intuitive...yadda, yadda....(whatever your rationalization is that relates to the feminine) than I was when I started. What it does do, or at least has done for me is, lower my libido and sense of furtiveness and makes me look at all my motives for my transition. You WILL have epiphanies from this perspective, I assure you. It's the elephant in the room that seems is never ever discussed. Loss of male libido is huge... and regardless of anything else, it seems to bring a universal outcome. Meaning it's not a YMMV thing. I won't share my feelings about my mental state from all this as I'm sure this actually is a YMMV thing...... in reality, I'm quite sure of it.
I guess my point to you Marcelle, if you try this thing, (the HRT) you may find you need it, or you may find you can simply take it or leave it. Whether or not you choose to continue with it, .........at least you'll have a clear understanding of what it means to be on it. Thus allowing you the opportunity to make an elucidated decision on what you're doing. Mystery solved. It has brought massive clarity to me.
At any rate.... my point is,..... no harm....no foul..... if you choose to drop the regimen after a short period, your body will be intact, and you will then have the knowledge to move forward in a meaningful way without the niggling and nagging of your subconscious mind not knowing what's on this other side. Peace of mind is invauable and trumps second hand information or apocryphal descriptions every time. This being regardless of your decision to stay or go.
Anyway...I just wanted to share that with you Marcelle. Hoping it will help you some. My little benefit of a minor real world exposure and all.
Ultimately, whatever route you choose,I'm on board with anything that enriches your life. You're a Sister and God knows, we all need to get where we're going in one piece, or......what the hell is the point?????????

Good luck. Lisa

[Rianna Humble]

This thread is in danger of becoming a conversation about whether someone is authentically trans or not. That is not its purpose.

I will freely admit that there are things I don't understand in the approach Marcelle is taking, that does not make her approach wrong. Heck, I don't always understand the approach that I am taking, but I know it is more or less right for me.

Marcelle, I agree with a lot of people who have said that you have chosen a rough path to tread and one that may well be fraught with danger. I also respect your love for and devotion to your wife and sincerely hope that you don't have to choose between your wife and being true to yourself.

So let's get this thread back on track for offering support - which includes challenging the OP's thinking but without the overtones of "Me Jane, you Tarzan".

I'd hate to see this thread come to a premature close.

[Christina Kay]

Marcelle , I understand what your marriage means to you. The lengths that you are going for it as for yourself. Lord only knows the amount of us , that are traversing a similar balancing act. But a lot of us aren't as forth coming to post. I couldn't have said it any better than Heidi. Sad that some people couldn't read that at this point in your journey, some understanding was needed. If you need to chat pm me. We've been here about the same amount of time, stay strong.
Hugs Christina

[Rogina B]

I side with your wife.. You have gone from a crossdresser to a gender non comforming person when you came out at work. You" out toughed" the opposition. Going into battle,I am quite sure that your wife said "If you want to,and are tough enough,and there are no ill repercussions possible"...I doubt she sees you the same way that you see yourself. Your wife has [had] a vision of the future..retirement,no danger,rules,etc. She didn't "sign up" for your latest program. I feel for her.

[GretchenJ]

But a lot of us aren't as forth coming to post. I couldn't have said it any better than Heidi. Sad that some people couldn't read that at this point in your journey, some understanding was needed.

Marcelle, add me to Christina and Heidi to the list of those who will always support you and your wife in an attempt to find a compromise as you attempt to reach an equilibrium between curbing the possible dysphoria vs threatening your marriage.

There is no master cookbook in navigating throughout this path, the only way to go is to trust your gut. You have done amazing and very brave things in bringing Marcelle out in the open, in a very challenging work environment. There is nothing wrong with liking your body the way it is, and you and your spouse is the only ones who matters to this regard.

My continued prayers and support is always available throughout this circumstance

[Cindy J Angel]

I'm in the same place as Marcelle 28 years x navy went to live as me and keep my wife who's doesn't .28 is a long time my wife and I had the talk the same night and I got the same response from her go down that road and I don't know if I can stay. I did not marry a woman. Just to night she was pissed. At me we had a condo labor day party she asked if I was dress as a woman.and an well I said of courses. It has taken me quite a long time just to get to were I am at.
Marcelle has to do what she has to do to get to the next day. I walk on egg shells all the time but like Marcelle we still move forward maybe not as fast as we went or as fast as others but we move. Even though the next day could be the day she walks out. I here this all the time on the site. If it was not for badtran I would not be out to anyone. Thank you for the push but keep in mind we are all I this to gathering and at the same time alone. Marcelle I stand with u. But listen to what the other's have to say. It all could go to shit In a hand bag really quick. For I see that happening to me and don't know how to stop it. And mite never. Love
cindy

[rachel de Corvus]

Marcelle, I have always admired you and do so even more now. We are all humans striving to be better humans here. You are a strong, thoughtful woman. May you and your wife weather this storm, have many more years of happiness, together if that can be. I just sent you a long personal note. Best wishes, rachel

[Sarah Doepner]

Marcelle, I've been watching you follow your path for the last few years and wondering where mine may be the same in one way or another. There are too many differences in age, relationships and experience to say they are parallel, but the desire to find peace while not disrupting the lives of those we care about is the same. They (whoever "they" are) say one of the best and most honorable things we can do is go home from the dance with the one who brought you. From all you have written, your wife is a strong, devoted and loving person. It would be an honor to know her. Your struggle between finding out how to quiet the inner turmoil while not hurting her is a battle worth fighting. I've said things in the past to loved ones that I've had to take back later and seeing how I damaged the relationship hurt me as much (but in different ways) as it did them. I understand the need to preserve that special relationship with someone who has provided support, stability and love through so many times. I wish you both the very best as you attempt to discover the path that will work best. It's obvious it won't be one without challenges and even disappointment, but in the end, I do hope it leads to that peace of mind you both deserve.

[Jmichelle60]

Marcelle, it's obvious that you and your wife love each other. You've thought this through and waited for some time before deciding to start HRT. I hope that that you find the balance you are looking for.