Why is the negative so easily assumed?

[Jenniferathome]

I didn't want to derail another thread but something written stuck me as odd. A member wrote:

"There are some CDs and transwomen who have accepting and supportive wives/girlfriends but this is not the norm...."

Now, the ease with which this comment was made is only matched with the ease by which I state, it IS the norm. Perhaps it's just the two verbs used which confuse the statement as written. They are not the same thing. I strongly believe, and based on the posts on this site, it is confirmed that the norm is acceptance. Meaning that the clear and overwhelming majority of relationships continue after the reveal. This is not to suggest that this same SO enjoys this part of her mate or even wants to know more, but clearly staying together is acceptance. Perhaps the posters meaning was focused on "supportive" and yet even there I can't endorse this notion based on what I have read here. If the poster was really suggesting the idea of active participation being "not the norm", I can get there.

Still, a frequently written theme here is that "most" women don't like cross dressers. And yet, the women who are on this site, ALL respond that it is the lying, hiding, self absorption that drives the wedge and not the cross dressing per se, even if that woman does not like the cross dressing!

It's funny, but it is a well known and studied psychological tendency that we remember a negative thing more easily than a positive one. And it takes many, many positive experiences to wipe out a single negative one. The stereotype of "women drivers" being poor is evidence of this phenomenon even though actual data refutes it.

My thought of the night is to suggest that we remember the positives. They are there and in my experience outnumber the negatives.

[Tracii G]

When someone makes a blanket statement like that I have to wonder who made them the expert on the subject?

[Victoria92116]

Normal is a relative thing. Yes, it can be studied and compute the most consistent outcome based on similar data, but even those outcomes have outliers which can still be construed as normal given the specific parameters. Social norms are very rapidly changing, and always have really, so what is normal is constantly changing, one factor that resists change is the individual, and even that changes given enough time and evidence that what they view as normal in reality is just their perception of normal. I hope that all made sense, long day. Now off to let my wife pluck my eyebrows, which probably isn't normal to your average Joe blow, but for me it's slowly becoming the norm because I love the after effects, and she likes to hurt me I think.

[MartineCD]

In my own personal observation people tend to recount information coloured by their own experiences. There have been many studies that show how two individuals can witness the same event yet have different experiences. It does take delibrate effort not to make sweeping statements from a single point of view.

We are all individual as are our relationships. Even among accepting couple there are varying degrees of acceptance and rules that define them.

I have read many threads detailing closet, DADT, tolerant and fully integrated relationships but there are so many that don't feel the need or can't/won't share to gain anything more that a vague idea of how an individual SO will a react to the revelation that their partner is a CDer.

As Victoria has said, negative reactions are more easily shared and accepted. To paraphrase Mark Twain 'Bad news is halfway round the world before Good new puts on its shoes.

M x

[lianatcharles]

I agree with Jennifer- Can't go into telling a SO with the negative mindset or advise those who havent told theirs with that. I think it is more about the trust in your partner and having the hard unfiltered discussions about this topic.

[Sara Jessica]

I think it has to do with how one defines accepting & supportive.

My situation for example would be considered a godsend for many in these pages but rather than accepting and supportive, I'd call it tolerating, understanding but decidedly non-participating. Add to that a self-defined subsection of DADT which I call yeah, whatever (Y,W) where communication on the subject is on a need-to-know basis. The trans is certainly not a part of everyday conversation even though it is an inescapable part of our everyday lives.

(more on Y,W... www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?228059-degrees-of-DADT-(labels-again-Bruce-)&highlight=degrees+dadt)

Yes, many if not most relationships survive the big reveal but the way I define accepting & supportive (and based on anecdotal tales in these pages), I would have a hard time arguing that accepting & supportive is the norm.

[Teri Ray]

Thanks for you positive comments Jennifer. I cannot speak for others but I know what you stated above is absolutely true in my case. My fear of opening up to my wife lead her to be suspicious, untrusting and overall much more fearful of my dressing desires. Once we had the big talk, although difficult, things in our marriage slowly became better. My dressing desire, I am sure, is still conundrum to her, but honest answers to her questions seem to replace the fear of the unknown.

Thanks for you insight. What is right for one person may not be right for all. I may be one of the lucky ones who has a wife that is making an attempt to better understand, be it the norm or not. I do know I am a believer in telling the truth.

[josrphine]

Jenn, I little saying [ don't confuse me with the facts my mind is made up ] I have a wonderfull women that we are together for 10yrs now. I am her best girl friend and we find that my self as a women can relate to many of her problems. I have been told by quite a few intuative and friends that we have made, that I have become the perfect blend of a man and a women. As her girl friend she has told me more then if I was just her husband. So let put this into the mix. Jo

[Elizabeth G]

Hi Jennifer,

Perhaps it is true that acceptance is the norm, and for my own sake I hope it is, as I am still closeted, and I agonize daily over when and how to come out to my wife.

However any hypothesis is only as good as its constituent data. In this case the data is drawn from self reported instances in a generally positive and supportive environment. I think people by nature tend to be less forthcoming with things they believe reflect them in a less than positive light. Therefore I think it may be possible that negative outcomes are under reported.

As I said earlier, I hope you are right for my own sake, but I promise, when the time comes, I will tell the group either way.

Elizabeth

[deebra]

Jennifer are you saying that when male meets female and they are both looking to start a relationship if he tells her first and outright that he is a crossdresser that most women are O.K. and will be accepting?

[Krisi]

Little girls grow up believing that they will be swept away by a knight in shining armor. When they come home one day and find their "knight" prancing around the house in a tutu and heels, it can be quite a shock.

As crossdressers, we are not in a good position to have a handle on what "normal" means and certainly not in a position to understand how most women feel about crossdressers and being married to one. And we have absolutely no input from women who are not married to crossdressers.

There are many stories here of wives ending the marriage when they find that their husband is a crossdresser. There are many others of wives saying "OK but keep it hidden. I don't want to know about it." (DADT). For the wives that seem to accept our hobby, I think it's more that they love us enough to put up with it or possibly they feel it's too much trouble to leave and start over. Another though is that if the husband is dressing as a woman he's probably not having an affair with one.

I doubt there are many women who honestly feel "Oh goody, my husband is a crossdresser." They put up with it but they would be happier if it just went away.

[Ellie Summer]

See this is where I feel like I've been cursed by this beautiful thing that we all share. It has brought me so much happiness, self confidence, personal growth, tolerance, etc., but I have never dated someone who would have been cool with it, or even moderately accepting of it. I feel like I need to test the waters out a little bit before even hinting that it might be something I'm into and either it was clear to me that it would not end up well, or it definitely did not end up going well. In my own personal experience, finding someone who would handle it well is a tall order.. I know you all understand when I say how damn frustrating it can be, feeling different but having even the closest people in our lives reject us over it. Granted I'm looking at this from my own point of view so it's easier for me to say "what's the big deal, only good has come from it", and I try to see it from the point of view of others, but I also know that their point of view is so skewed by horrible stigmas that unfairly exist. We're so often seen as creeps, psychopaths, perverts, and we're not. I hate it. If any of you have spouses that are accepting or even encouraging of who you are, you're some very lucky people.

[Jenniferathome]

Jennifer are you saying that when male meets female and they are both looking to start a relationship if he tells her first and outright that he is a crossdresser that most women are O.K. and will be accepting?

Of course not. I wrote specifically about one's SO. One's Significant Other. A stranger is decidedly not a "Significant Other."

In your example, a stranger simply has no vested emotional interest to find out more. It is a possible complication that is easier to avoid than to understand.

[dolovewell]

I was the one who made that comment. I'll go ahead and stand by it because I still believe the core of what I said is correct.

My comment was given from my perspective. I'm in my 20s, from looking at the pics of the users here, I'd say most of you are old enough to be my mother or grandmother. My comment was more geared toward younger single men and not so much older married men. For people my age, things are different. We live in a world where divorce rates are over 50% and no fault divorce is a thing. Those of you who are older and have been married lived in a different time. Where marriage actually meant something. Where marriage contracts were actually enforced, and society helped enforce them. Where divorce was frowned upon. Older married couples actually work to keep their marriage going because they actually believe their marriage contract means something. So of course those marriages are likely to stay together even when the crossdressing cat is out of the bag, that is what the couples vowed to do on the altar, stay together for better or worse.

Krisi nailed it, women want a knight, they want a champion. Women are the selective gender not just with humans, but with most species. Males compete with each other to be chosen by the female. Women these days have lots of options. If they are unmarried and dating men, chances are the average woman would not choose a guy who is a crossdresser over a man who is not - as they view crossdressing as the opposite of what they are looking for - a strong, masculine knight/champion. That's just the way it is.

In my experience I'd say 90-95% of women are supporting and accepting of me as a crossdresser when I interact with them at various places. But those women are not my girlfriend or spouse. When they may be accepting of a man who is a crossdresser, they may not be accepting of their SO being one. It's a different level of acceptance.

In college I told 3 girlfriends about my crossdressing. Not only did all 3 break up with me almost immediately, they completely went no contact on me and treated me like some kind of creep afterward. The thing is, before telling them I would float trial balloons with them and asked them how they felt about various things in general, like MTF crossdressers, and they seemed to be completely OK with it. But just because they are OK with a man crossdressing in general, didn't mean they would be OK with their BOYFRIEND being one.

[Jenniferathome]

Dolovewell, please save the message you wrote. Print it and put in an envelope maker do not open until 2036. You will crack yourself up over your youth.

You seem to be thinking of marriage as it was in the 1940's and 50's where divorce was actively frowned upon. Marriage in the 70's and beyond is quite different. I have three kids in their 20's. When I got married, more than two decades ago, divorce rates were 50%, as they are today. Marriage is about a relationship with another person and the contract means nothing. It's two people making a promise to each other. Are both parties serious? Clearly, half the time, they are not. But even today, half the time they are.

As I wrote above, a new girlfriend, the ones you have in college, have little vested in you and have limited life experiences. It's logical that they would not choose the hard path they're still figuring themselves out. You both are!

Perhaps the problem is the term used to describe the woman in your life. Girlfriend or even SO can be "casual" or "serious." Do both parties look at this relationship the same way? This is a problem in communication. Has text overtaken talk?

_______

And Ellie, I can't deny there is a stigma around cross dressing. This is due to a lack of information. Most people have no clue about us. But that is changing. Everything I wrote above applies to you too. It comes down to what does "serious" mean in a relationship? And are you both there?

[Lana Mae]

HI! There is only one thing that keeps a relationship together! LOVE And how committed the partners are to that love and to each other! Love is the bedrock or foundation and trust and communication are the glue or nail that hold it together. Irregardless of crossdressing, if any of the three is weak or not present the relationship could fall apart! Imho And I was married 34+ years! Hugs to all! Lana Mae

[Ellie Summer]

So what happens when everything in the relationship is fine and dandy, working well and the future looks bright, then this throws a big wrench into the system and stops it in its tracks? I think a lot of people who stay in the closet about it are of the mind that it's just not worth it to mess up an otherwise good thing, and that's why I have a hard time blaming anyone for keeping something like this to themselves. Is it lying? Is it deceit? Or is it just someone wanting to keep something to themselves to keep an otherwise good relationship afloat because the other partner can't look past all the stigmas?

[lianatcharles]

Dolovewell, in college and throughout my 20s (i'm 32- so, not your mom/grandma) i've had completely the opposite experience with the 4 or so girlfriends i'd had then. I do think it is about the type of love & trust built up in a relationship, and not so much about whether one is seen as a typical Knight/Champion or not. I think that if you are truly one's champion, they will love you no matter what you do as a CD or otherwise. We can talk about the "biology" and selection stuff but it's funny when a lot of the CDs I know are more masculine, stronger, and rugged than a lot of those we assume as non-cd men out there. My fiancee even pointed that out when the night before I was dressed as a beautiful woman, and that next day i'm the manly man using my power tools around the house. I do understand where you're coming from though as your experiences have been different.

[Jenniferathome]

So what happens when everything in the relationship is fine and dandy, working well and the future looks bright, then this throws a big wrench into the system and stops it in its tracks? I think a lot of people who stay in the closet about it are of the mind that it's just not worth it to mess up an otherwise good thing, and that's why I have a hard time blaming anyone for keeping something like this to themselves. Is it lying? Is it deceit? Or is it just someone wanting to keep something to themselves to keep an otherwise good relationship afloat because the other partner can't look past all the stigmas?

Ellie, coming out is absolutely a wrench in the machine. BUT, if everything actually was "fine and dandy, working well and future looks bright," in such context, cross dressing is just a thing and can be worked through.

I also understand why cross dressers don't come out. I hide this from my wife for decades. And it is lying. It is deceit. I think we hide this for the simple reason of fear. Fear of the unknown, fear of imagined rejection, fear of humiliation, ...fear. But to me, your "fine and dandy" statement is the litmus test. I have often written that any relationship with a solid foundation can survive the reveal. The question is, how solid is that relationship?

[~Joanne~]

My comment was given from my perspective. I'm in my 20s, from looking at the pics of the users here, I'd say most of you are old enough to be my mother or grandmother. My comment was more geared toward younger single men and not so much older married men. For people my age, things are different. We live in a world where divorce rates are over 50% and no fault divorce is a thing. Those of you who are older and have been married lived in a different time. Where marriage actually meant something. Where marriage contracts were actually enforced, and society helped enforce them. Where divorce was frowned upon. Older married couples actually work to keep their marriage going because they actually believe their marriage contract means something. So of course those marriages are likely to stay together even when the crossdressing cat is out of the bag, that is what the couples vowed to do on the altar, stay together for better or worse.


I fully agree with this statement. Most women do seem to go into a marriage with the intent on having "that big day" but fail to understand the commitment that comes with it. I figure that is why a lot of people write their own vows so they can omit the parts that they don't like about the standard vows.

But as for the age thing, I find that the generations behind me are more open to people being different than say the marriage generation your talking about. The older generation is more set in there ways and are far from "free thinkers" than what Your generation is. I am sorry that the 3 girls you told ran the other way but I guess that depends on which part of the country you live in because they are a lot more open about things here especially if they are gay. Gay seems to be the new norm around here where it's not shunned on or anything and you get shamed if you have a different opinion about it. Since people always assume that your gay if you CD, I would suspect that they would be more open to it than say my generation is.

This is why a lot of us hide it or are in a DADT relationship whether they want to admit it or not. My SO took all of this very easily even though she's in my generation but I assume it's because she is a very strong woman to begin with. I'll give you credit for coming forth about your dressing very early on but I think you may want to wait until the relationship gets a bit more serious than just dating. There is no reason to tell someone your dating any of this until the point it turns serious unless you want to date and go out dressed.

And of coarse this is just my opinion, some will agree, some won't but that's why it is mine ;)

[mykell]

:timeout: jennifer you always share the point of view of the women in your life, wife, daughters.....fashion sense, opinions....just entertainer this scenario :thinking: dolovewell meets your daughters in school and he tells them of that passion for womens style, clothes, makeup....what are your thoughts on what they will do.....hit the road or chive on.....he's such a catch :devil: you have made this statement many times...."no women wishes that their man is a crossdresser" so both your girls dump dolovewell and now that number is 6, so now is the statement "negative" or just this persons truth :facepalm:

just by our nature of our secrecy i dont think its possible to make a demonstrable assertion of either POV ........just my :2c:

[Jenniferathome]

Mikel, of course I share my point of view. What other point of view can any individual have?


Regarding he question about my girls meeting Dolvewell.. I covered this idea above.

"As I wrote above, a new girlfriend, the ones you have in college, have little vested in you and have limited life experiences. It's logical that they would not choose the hard path they're still figuring themselves out. You both are!"

Now, would my girls dump their "serious" boyfriend if he came out to them? I don't know but I doubt it.

[AlyssaJ]

Wow so much going on in this thread. First and foremost, I think it is very important to really define acceptance versus supportive versus encouraging. There's a pretty solid argument to be had over whether a DADT arrangement is acceptance. DADT is simply avoidance and avoidance is not acceptance. I wouldn't even call it tolerance as tolerance implies you're at least facing the subject. To me, acceptance is a point where our SO says, I know this is who you are and it's not something you can just hide away. They likely don't like it but they acknowledge that it's a part of you and therefore part of what makes you who you are. Supportive is the next step where not only do they accept that this is who you are but they help enable you to express yourself and will stand up for your right to dress and act as you please. They likely call you by a feminine name and use feminine pronouns when you're dressed. They might help you learn how to apply makeup or give you "tricks of the trade" for other feminine behaviors. Encouraging is then the last step, SO's that are encouraging to me would be the ones that seem to almost enjoy it and certainly participate actively in your dressing. Maybe they use your dressing as a snickers bar (i.e. you're kinda cranky, you should go dress up). They go shopping with you and suggest clothes that would look good on you. They actively engage with you as a female just like a close female friend and fully treat you as a female when you're dressed.

So are the majority of our SO's accepting? Obviously the metrics we have available to measure this are completely inadequate to answer that question. However, I believe acceptance is a pretty high bar already, it's so much more than just DADT. Based on the numbers I've seen on this forum it seems to be a pretty even split. There are many of us in DADT relationships, there are many of us with SO's who are accepting or better. Those who are still closeted can't be measured. We can't say if their SO's are accepting or not because they've not been given the chance.

Now as we look to why, I do believe a spouse is more likely to be accepting than a girlfriend/boyfriend situation. It is usually to walk away from a dating relationship both emotionally and logistically than a marriage (long term dating relationships of many years might be an exception to that). In a marriage you've invested so much more time, love, energy, money, etc. Especially if you've been married for some time, your spouse has become a fixture in your life and it maybe difficult to imagine your life without them. This makes it far more likely that a spouse will make an attempt to work through things. The logistics of divorce are also a factor no doubt. Financial issues, parenting issues, etc all come into play. And personally, despite some suggestions to the contrary here, there is still a stigma attached to divorce in our society. While it is far more accepted and not the taboo it was a half century ago, there is still a lot of pressure on married couples to make it work. There is some embarrassment as you look to your friends who got married around the same time if they're making it work and you're the one that couldn't.

[ellbee]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall, so I could hear what goes on in the GG-only section -- and in their PM's to one another.

Because honestly, we'd probably be hearing a much different story.


Anyway, "accepting" & "supporting" really need to be defined, here.

[Ellie Summer]

Do we have any GGs in here that are willing to weigh in on this? I'd really love to hear their perspectives after getting to know the people on this forum and what goes through our minds

[ellbee]

To be fair, I think many of the GG's already here might, at the very least, be trying to make some kind of effort. Otherwise, why would they even be here to begin with? (Not saying it's always easy for them, though, either.)

But think of how many *aren't* here at a site like this. And that's where I think you'd find a *whole* lot more of the "not-so-nice" stuff.

[Lorileah]

Laura, I think you'd be wrong (and no I don't have access). The women who are here are here because they WANT to understand and keep the relationship intact. So I feel that in the GG section there is more discussion about "I want to be there for him (her) but they don't make it easy."

Let this old geezer give her perspective about being 20 something and the dating scene. How many times was I dumped or turned down because I wasn't built or look like a movie star (hundreds). How many times was I dumped or turned down because I wasn't a "biker" (3). How many times was I turned down because I was in the Army (TMTC). So going through women until you find the one who likes YOU...that is the "norm". The number of couples I know who found Mr or Ms Right early on I can count on one hand. The divorce rate (IMHO) is more due to NOT being honest up front and having things pop up later. So you are a carnivore. You meet the woman of your dreams but she is total vegan. Now YOU have a choice. You can stay. If you stay you can arrive at an understanding (acceptance) that she is a vegan. You don't have to be a vegan (My GF was a select carnivore. She would not eat red meats or mammals...still had the best times of my life with her...and dinners too). That would be tolerance of her life. I didn't try and change her mind, instead I let her eat what she wanted (Support). Yeh it made it awkward at some functions but hey, as stated above, that is LOVE. I grew up in a family that ate meat, a community that made it's living from meat, so I was taught that meat was good. She didn't grow up that way. OK now you're saying "Hey, not eating meat doesn't change the world." OK, I get that. I informed this same woman about "Lori" before we met. She (if she was you "normal" woman) should have run away...and yet she wanted to be with ME. Not the clothes. (accepting AND supportive). The thing is if one has anything you suspect may interfere with your future (i.e. you KNOW she doesn't like men who wear dresses) then she should be the one to decide if the relationship continues. If you hide that you allow her to build a life without all the facts. Not fair. And then you wonder why she gets upset. Maybe, if you had allowed her to use her own brain, instead of trying to guess how she is supposed to feel and react (projecting), then your dressing would have been something she tolerated, or was willing to work around. This is what we like to call trust. Trust is given easily but it is fragile. And once broken it is hard to rebuild.

And much of what is said here is tainted with how we feel about ourselves. Often it is noted that "woman want men who..." and in fact the men here have been taught the same as how they "should" be. From the start we are told how a man should act. That is why there is so much guilt and a huge reason CDs hide in the closet. So, we tend to to not like showing that side. But again we don't let the women decide. Granted, they have as skewed vision. The knight in shining armor is a fallacy (us old geezers who could be mothers or grandmothers know that). But youth clouds that. One thing that shows our own bias is words. Words like "prancing" ( I don't prance). And words like "tutus" (never have worn one of those either) Let's change those words in the above post.
When they come home one day and find their "knight" prancing around the house in a tutu and heels, it can be quite a shock. to When they come home one day and find their "knight"(has solved the string theory and will bring unlimited fame and fortune sitting) around the house in (a stylish Women's outfit.) It would still be a shock. Hey after all you hid an important part of your life for years (who knew you were a Quantum Physicist?) But it doesn't show your bias that you are less than what society says you should be. As Jen noted, a positive spin.

That, I think, is a major point of this thread. When we expect bad, we get it. Not that you will get the best all the time, but you don't give it a chance to happen. You are Eeyore. Think of it like a salesperson. How many sales do you get if you say "Hey, you wouldn't want to buy this would you?" vs "Have I got something you would love to have." If you decide that whomever you are after has already made up their mind, you lose the sale. That's what happens here. You have decided your SO doesn't have the ability to decide if they love YOU over what you wear. Personally, if I was with someone like that, the relationship would eventually implode. I have a brain, you have a brain. I don't decide what you would think, you don't decide what I should think. Why is there a greater than 50% chance your marriage will fail (and a much higher rate that your dating life will fail)? Honesty and trust, specifically the lack thereof (and this isn't just dressing...it's everything)

[Ineke Vashon]

I do like your thoughtful explanations and contribution in this post, Lorileah.

Ineke

[ellbee]

Laura, I think you'd be wrong (and no I don't have access). The women who are here are here because they WANT to understand and keep the relationship intact. So I feel that in the GG section there is more discussion about "I want to be there for him (her) but they don't make it easy."

Yeah, I understand that, which is why I followed up to my original post that I probably made in haste.

With the ones here who *are* trying to make it work & understand it all, which we should give them full credit for, even *they* are probably honestly & deep-down struggling a bit on some levels. And I've seen a little of this here publicly before. So, I can imagine the ones who aren't even bothering to make an effort are probably way more likely to seriously "frown" upon this kind of stuff, and automatically assume "the worst" -- and I think many (but not all!) shared stories here reflect that.


Honestly, as a usually-single guy just trying to live as "normal" of a life as I can (and arguably there might be a bit more than just a simple case of CD'ing going on with me, ha!), I'll agree that it's not easy for me, either. I'd like to think, anyway, that I can certainly make a pretty awesome SO -- though I can also relate to some others here, with many GG's who'd rather see me as a friend/one of their sisters, than as a potential mate, because of all this.

Not to toot my horn too much, but hey, their loss. :D

Though at the same time, it is rather unfortunate for both sides, especially over something like this.

[Brynna M]

This forum and people on it are a small subset of the world at large. Many people with SOs who are no chance in hell of accepting probably aren't any where near this forum ( either thy never were or left often a bad reveal). Then there are all the females in other parts of life that make comments about the trans spectrum in a negative light.
I've got not data to say one way or the other but I don't think this forum is a fair sample pool and with the generally negative (or tolerate at a distance) view of atypical gender variation expressed by most people I don't think. "Acceptance is not the norm" is a stretch assumption.

[mykell]

Mikel, of course I share my point of view. What other point of view can any individual have?
jen not tryng to be critical, youve shared views from your family and hoped you could share "if" it was them or something they may have shared about this or something similar.

Regarding he question about my girls meeting Dolvewell.. I covered this idea above.
"As I wrote above, a new girlfriend, the ones you have in college, have little vested in you and have limited life experiences. It's logical that they would not choose the hard path they're still figuring themselves out. You both are!"
many here advocate that we disclose this to anyone when we first start getting close to someone, dolovewell has done this and shared what its like in her reality and she kinda gets shamed for doing it, you say that its negative but to dolovewell its just the truth, "it was not the norm"......what timing is right and how does anyone know when they have met theyre soulmate .....at what time does it becomes serious enough to disclose this hard truth we guard, how many here met the love of theyre life while attending or at a higher learning facility ?


Now, would my girls dump their "serious" boyfriend if he came out to them? I don't know but I doubt it.

like i stated you share the POV of the women in your life, i was trying to get your feelings of if your girls found themselves in this situation, i have no daughters so their is no dinner table banter about what young a womens perspective like your girls bring to the table.....at mine, only my mrs. and my son. just looking for something deeper than "you doubt it." from that kind of perspective.
i didnt see "not the norm as negative, just an observation......again just my :2c:

[Micki_Finn]

I'm just going to leave this here:

"My comment was more geared toward younger single men and not so much older married men. For people my age, things are different. We live in a world where divorce rates are over 50% "

In a NYT piece looking at the stubbornness of the 50 percent divorce rate myth, Claire Cain Miller reiterates what she says social scientists have been trying to tell us for a while now: Divorce rates reached their peak in the 1970s and 1980s and have been going down—not up, and not holding steady—ever since. Some 70 percent of folks who got married in the 1990s made it 15 whole years together, a 5 percent increase from the previous two decades. And nearly 75 percent of marriages from the last decade are going to make it to death.

[dolovewell]

Dolovewell, in college and throughout my 20s (i'm 32- so, not your mom/grandma) i've had completely the opposite experience with the 4 or so girlfriends i'd had then. I do think it is about the type of love & trust built up in a relationship, and not so much about whether one is seen as a typical Knight/Champion or not. I think that if you are truly one's champion, they will love you no matter what you do as a CD or otherwise. We can talk about the "biology" and selection stuff but it's funny when a lot of the CDs I know are more masculine, stronger, and rugged than a lot of those we assume as non-cd men out there. My fiancee even pointed that out when the night before I was dressed as a beautiful woman, and that next day i'm the manly man using my power tools around the house. I do understand where you're coming from though as your experiences have been different.

I actually think this is my problem. I believe women are attracted to me because, in male mode, I am a masculine man.

If any of you saw me in person on the street in male mode, you'd probably stereotype me as a "dumb jock frat boy" type. That's who I am in male mode. I played 4 sports in high school and 2 in college. I lift 4 days a week, I am in tip top shape, I'm confident, cocky, muscular, low body fat %, six pack abs, all of that. Therefore I attract women who are attracted to masculine, muscular, cocky men like myself. So when I tell them I wear women's clothing, it destroys the vision and perception they have of me. They lose attraction because the reason they were attracted to me has been tainted.

I weren't a masculine muscular jock type, I could theoretically attract a different type of woman, who theoretically could probably be more open to me being a crossdresser.

[Jenniferathome]

Dolovewell, you are not alone. The cross dressers here run quite the gamut of "manly men." I was only a one sport star in my D1 college (tennis). I now race mountain bikes and road bikes. There are many others here with similar stories. Cops, military, jocks a plenty. When I was chasing my wife to be, I was the alpha male. No one ever, even today, would think cross dressing was a possibility for me. This is really the norm. Cross dressing doesn't make me less manly, unless I am cross dressed....

[dolovewell]

I have to agree with you there Jennifer.

If you saw me on the street I'd be the last person you'd suspect to be a crossdresser.

I started cross dressing at 12. Something I did in secret growing up. I was a star athlete in high school, was fortunate enough to be able to play two sports in college. As I grew up I would go through "cycles" of dressing and loving it, and purging and hating it. I'd dress, love it for a while, then eventually be shamed of myself, purge it all and vow to never do it again. I'd then overcompensate by being ultra masculine but eventually the urges to come back and the cycle would repeat. I'd be in the locker room and feel like a piece of worthless garbage because here I am, a great athlete surrounded by great athletes, and yet I wear women's clothes in my private time.

My last purge, in March of 2015, I seriously thought that was it. I'd never do it again. And I made it about 16 months. That's the longest I've ever gone without dressing. But the desire to crossdress came back. I suppressed and suppressed and suppressed. Until it was pushing back too hard to suppress anymore. It has been like a flood. I realized that this is part of me, and its not going anywhere, and purging/suppressing will only make it come back that much harder. I've come to accept that crossdressing doesn't make me any less of a man, or should it be something I should be ashamed of. Therefore I called a truce with my crossdressing. I've finally accepted it. Something I was never able to do. It was something I did and was ashamed of. Now, its something I am embracing. That was the final hurdle. Now I can do it guilt and shame free.

I do consider myself fortunate that I don't have gender identity issues like some do. That would be hard to deal with. I am a man and happy with my male life. No desire to go full time or transition or anything like that. But sometimes I just like to step out away from my male world, be feminine and be a woman.

[Lorileah]

Which sorta explains a gold medal winner, an Ex-Navy SEAL, an EX-Marine officer, Ex-High School All State football player That off hand I can vouch personally for who are TS. I think many of of "us" played the man card to the max when we started. It isn't uncommon, but DoLove I think maybe you are shopping the wrong market.
I weren't a masculine muscular jock type, I could theoretically attract a different type of woman, who theoretically could probably be more open to me being a crossdresser. . I am sure there are many women who would be more attracted to your intellect or wit or charm if you actually went where they are.

[dolovewell]

I am sure there is some truth to that Lorileah. The women I have dated... I guess the best way to describe them would be bar bimbos. The types of women who are all glitz and glam and looks but not much brains. Two of the girls I outed myself to were dancers for two different NBA teams, stunning looks and bodies but not much mental intellect.

But for now I am satisfied being single and on my own. I don't have to answer to anyone. I can do what I want when I want. And with my lifestyle, that's how it has to be. In my line of work I move around a lot. I've lived in 7 different cities since graduating college a few years ago. So I actually don't really search around because I don't want to have to worry about committing to someone when I could be on the move again.

One day I'll settle down in a city for longer than a year or two and perhaps then I will be open to a relationship.

[Nikki.]

yeah....I have a single datum only, but I pursued a pretty, smart girl who was well read, intellectual and into art. So perhaps not surprisingly when I told her I liked to wear women's clothes 6 months into dating she didn't run screaming for the exits. 25 years later we're still together. And like Jen, then and now I'm a cyclist and outdoor adventurer type. Though I'be never had an interest in following sports.

They are out there...

[Thictoria]

I agree with Jenniferathome, if a relationship is rock solid and the love is there it can survive anything! I had a partner that was abusive and manipulating, if he had told me he was a cd i would of used it to get away from him (not saying anyone else is this) but my current partner of only nearly 2 years told me 6 ish months ago and i had to get him to admit it to me! The difference is i love him with all my heart and him for who he is which is an honest, loving supportive and kind person who i want a future with!! It's definitely not the worst thing a man could love to do and we both enjoy it now after a few wobbles on my part :) the feelings and commitment definitely have to be there and lots of trust !

[Teresa]

Jen,
I wonder if the problem is most CDers think in the negative , we have to look for so many work rounds, for that reason it's difficult to find enough positives to balance that feeling out.

So what is the " Norm" to my wife and I guess like most , an honest, hard working man who will stand by her as a husband, support her with the children and be there to enjoy the fruits of grandchildren. To most of us here, parts or all of that possibly remain true , as you say it's perhaps not the CDing that is the problem but the lies and deceit that go with it. The problem with that is and it's something our partners don't always realise is for many years we lie and try and deceive ourselves. When we finally come out to our partner we very often come out to ourselves, we have to face the many aspects of it before we can even begin to explain it to anyone else, on top of that all the years we have been the dutiful partner are suddenly thrown aside with rejection, accusations of lying and threats of divorce.

Some will argue that we should have been honest before committing to a partner, but it just isn't as simple as that. The simple statement that we lied and intended to deceive isn't true in so many instances, we only find much of this out in hindsight when we find how complex being TG is. I know I've said this before, our partners aren't all whiter than white, many of us have been deceived through our married lives, the saying of only wanting the man she married goes both ways .

I will admit I have too many negatives or maybe you could say I'm getting older and more cynical , all I know is I'm glad CDing is finally an open part of my life , because I enjoy it and it makes me happy.

Bryanna,
I'm not sure if I agree with you, the percentage of CDers on the forum can never be stated but we are a good cross section, if you look at the different replies to any of the threads they give a good cross section of the TG community. The percentage of members here probably give a good idea of the feelings and situation of people that chose not to search on the forum or the web in general . The members of my social group reinforce this point , I know three are members here but the majority aren't and yet their feelings and opinions are very much the same as most here, I am surprised at the number of supportive partners that accompany the Cders to the meetings.

[AlyssaJ]

I was a little different in High School. Very slight and tall. I ran track and cross-country and was not the typical "jock". However, at about 24 years old, my body finally decided to catch up and now days I've got the V shaped upper body I'd have loved to have as a teen, muscle definition that I could never get no matter how many hours I spent in the weight room as school, and overall a much more macho appearance. I lift 6 days a week, run every day, and also am involved in sports. The good news is that when I walk into a bar in male mode, generally I don't have any issues with guys wanting to start fights with me. Unfortunately, my build makes it hard to pass as anything other than what guys often refer to as "an amazon" when in female mode. But then I'm guessing that's probably a similar issue many of us have.

[dolovewell]

I guess that is where I am lucky Lisa. I am muscular and strong, but very lean. Low body fat. I am 6 feet tall but only 155 pounds.Think Brad Pitt from fight club.

In November of 2014 I was about 185 pounds and ballooned up to 205 pounds by February of 2015. You could see the changes in my face, for the worse. I got the double chin going, a beer belly and everything. I went from looking decent in clothes to looking terrible. My dress size was 12, had to wear large size tops and panties and bra size was 38 band.

I got motivated and shed 50 pounds. Waist size went from 39 to 28, measurements are 33/28/38. My dress size is now 6, I wear small sized tops, small sized panties and 32/34 band size bras. I haven't dressed fully yet all the way since losing the weight so I wonder what I will look like when I am fully dressed up again with makeup, wig, and all. I am certain my body will look better because I am thinner, but I wonder how my face will look having shed all the fat in my face. I have a chiseled Mount Rushmore style jawline now amongst other things, so I wonder if my face being more sculpted and angular will be for the worse.

However, I am fortunate I won't come across as a built, muscular Amazon woman with a beer belly and double chin going when I am dressed up anymore.

[AlyssaJ]

Yeah it sounds like you've got a slighter build than me. At 5'10" and 9% body fat, I'm still 165 lbs when fully stripped. To really get thinner I think I'd have to burn off muscle which would probably feminize my body some but I'm not sure I'm ready to do that. I do enjoy having the muscle definition and so forth, but the bulk I've gained makes dressing a bit tougher.

[CONSUELO]

Once again we are in a debate with no definitive answer because we simply do not have the data to know what is the norm ( in its true statistical sense)
I would hope that Jennifer is right and most SO's are supportive, but I simply do not have the data to say she is right.

[Lorileah]

Statistics...bell curve...deviation (mathematical people). :)

I agree there is a good cross section here. We may not hold the sexual fetishists but we seem to run the spectrum. So what is the "norm?" The posts (threads) appear to be more toward the outside of the bell curve as far as accepting/non accepting but I think that is "normal" for most forums. The middle are content and really don't feel they need to say much. I would postulate that th majority here are comfortable in their relationship, either by consent or because they choose to be where they are. While the negatives often do stand out especially to those on the fence (we often look at the possible bad result of any action and tend not to focus on what good could happen), I see just as many "my spouse found out and she is OK as long as..." posts as the ones where brimstone rained down. As far as finding someone while dating, that is a crap shoot in any world. I had a whole bunch of frogs when I was young (they would say the same about me) until one person focused on who they saw IN me. And luckily I have had two like that. Now if I could hit the money lotto the world would be grand. As far as GGs who have posted in the Loved Ones or MtF sections, the far majority are women who really WANT to keep their spouse and learn. But we don't attract GGs as much unfortunately. Personally I think they go to friends for support, not the webz. And this site is an island as many well know. Googles "trans____" and the top sites are sexual (and often pay sites) so "we" get painted as such. If a GG was looking for support, they would have to wade through all the noise. Same with any transperson who is new or confused. It reinforces often that when you are seeking out why (or who) you are the most common answer is a sexual outcast. Maybe the people here are the most tenacious?

[TinaMc]

Just to add another positive, my wife is supportive of my dressing. She would come along to my trans social group given the opportunity. When I first told her it wasn't plain sailing from the outset, but a few years down the line, it's all good.
Not to detract from anyone else's bad story, but it's not all doom and gloom for everyone.

[sometimes_miss]

but clearly staying together is acceptance.
Perhaps tolerance is a better word.


I doubt there are many women who honestly feel "Oh goody, my husband is a crossdresser." They put up with it but they would be happier if it just went away.
^this.

And, to answer the original question of the thread. We assume the negative because that's how women generally feel about it. Put an ad in any of the major dating sites, add that you're a crossdresser, and see how many 'accepting' women respond. Really. Write to a bunch, tell them you'd love to date them, and that you would enjoy dressing up as a woman when you two go out.

Then come back here and tell us the results of how many accepting women you find. Because if there is such acceptance by so many women, surely there will be plenty to be found.

Again, I challenge anyone who believes in this nonsense to start their own date a crossdresser website or agency. Find all these 'accepting' women and You'll have many thousands of men willing to pay up to join. Just be prepared to be chased down with tar and feathers should you be faking it all.
I've brought this up several times over the years, if it were so simple that there were all these crossdresser accepting women out there, someone would surely have done it and gotten rich by now. Yet, not a single dating site has done it. Gee, I wonder why? There are gay dating sites, race specific dating sites, kink specific dating sites, but not one genuine straight girl/crossdresser dating site? The only crossdresser dating site that exists is strictly inhabited by men.

So, where are all these 'accepting' women? Because I work with women, and the single ones always bemoan about the lack of any 'good men' left. Yet, there are surely a good number of us who are nice, eligible potential mates.....with only one particular potential deal breaker: We are crossdressers.
We're not allowed a lot of links. But here are a couple:
https://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts26662.aspx

https://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts2091335.aspx

Do a search and there are other threads there when guys ask about this.

[Jenniferathome]

Did you even read these stings from plentyoffish? The clear and overwhelming response is that women are open to it.

Perhaps you have not considered that there is more to a relationship than cross dressing. Of the million things in a relationship cross dressing may be one. You need to work on the other 999,999 things.

[Krisi]

....................: Divorce rates reached their peak in the 1970s and 1980s and have been going down—not up, and not holding steady—ever since. Some 70 percent of folks who got married in the 1990s made it 15 whole years together, a 5 percent increase from the previous two decades. And nearly 75 percent of marriages from the last decade are going to make it to death.

Has anyone considered that in the 1970s and 1980s people actually got married while in more recent times, many just live together? If you and your partner just live together and don't get married, there is no divorce when you split up.

Sometimes "statistics" don't mean what they seem to mean.

[DanielleLee]

I'm in total agreement with Missi & Krisi. From the original post, what Jennifer calls acceptance, others like us call tolerance.

Wives aren't jumping at joy over finding out their husbands are cross dressers and support them. They may accept it out of beliefs over marriage vows, financial reasons, kids, etc. It may be they just love their husbands enough to block it out and bury it.

So while yes, technically, Jennifer is correct based on Merriam-Webster's definitions...

Simple Definition of acceptance



: the act of accepting something or someone
: the quality or state of being accepted or acceptable


Most CDs are accepted by their wives/SOs.

It's not to say those same SOs are supportive.

Simple Definition of support



: to agree with or approve of (someone or something)
: to show that you approve of (someone or something) by doing something
: to give help or assistance to (someone or something)


What many here (dare I say most?) are looking for, is support... not just acceptance. The two words or ideas are used interchangeably and incorrectly at that; but it doesn't change what we know about each others' needs to feel supported.

[Alice Torn]

Love can keep a relationship somewhat together, but RESPECT,, is very important, too. I am62, still single, and i fine women lose respect for me, when i reveal that i sometimes CD. They want a "real man", not an effeminate one, and cannot fathom why i would CD. Only a lesbian seemed to accept me, and she was not looking for a man, though. Respcit is number one with men, in what they want. When the respect is gone, even love is not that great.

[mykell]

Not sure who you're responding to. This thread is already 11 years old, and the last post is a year old. Of the several threads on this topic which you will find on this forum, it's been disclosed that there were less than a handful of women who would even consider dating a crossdresser. Most studies show that about 99% won't date a crossdresser, and the remaining 1% won't seek us out intentionally; that, because there's no upside for her to do it. Women enjoy having an impressive man as a companion, and a crossdresser is the last thing she wants to tell her girlfriends that she's dating. And so...The best advice I've gotten, would be to befriend gay women and get them to take you along to their bars where you could potentially meet staight, or bi-curious women who, while attracted to females, aren't really ready to have sex or any other physical contact with another woman. Those women are your 'market', and there's pretty much no other way to find them. You'll have to learn female dating body language (read Leil Lowndes 'U.S.S.' to learn this) as well as be able to talk to these women without seeming to be just interested in sex. Good luck. You're going to need it. I've been on personal ad sites now for almost 20 years, and have gotten less than 5 responses from women who knew this about me. (OTOH, on sites where I don't disclose this, I get plenty of responses from women, so it's not the rest of me that's a problem, just the crossdressing).

i read it, platypus_man had shared a pretty credible perspective on page 6 of one of those links....

[Jenniferathome]

... because that's how women generally feel about it. Put an ad in any of the major dating sites, add that you're a crossdresser, and see how many 'accepting' women respond.

....with only one particular potential deal breaker: We are crossdressers.
We're not allowed a lot of links. But here are a couple:
https://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts26662.aspx

https://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts2091335.aspx.

That's your litmus test!?!? Dating sites? I already responded to your "plentyoffish" reference that simply refutes your argument.

Of course, women are not seeking out cross dressers. In fact, I'd bet women are not seeking out blind people either. It's a complication that is easy to avoid by not starting. That analogy ends here as blind people probably don't come out their wives 20 years later with, "Honey, I have to tell you something. I'm blind." Still, if you asked 100 women about dating a blind person, they'd likely respond the same as they do about cross dressers, "I don't know." or "I might be open to it." You se, the "deal breaker" you reference is not cross dressing. It's YOU. It's one's personality and common interests. Cross dressing is one thing, not all things.



...Wives aren't jumping at joy over finding out their husbands are cross dressers and support them. .....

Nope, they are not. But most importantly, no one has ever written such a thing on this forum that I have read. Again, it is a complication that is easier to live without than to live with. I know my wife would rather I was not a cross dresser. It makes life easier or "normal." But I am a cross dresser and she accepts that without reservation. It is a fact, after all.

To your point about "support" I agree, all would like it but this complication makes that tough for many wives. Acceptance isn't a bad thing because at least one can stop hiding. Support may come in time or not at all but hiding ends with acceptance.

[Teresa]

Jen,
Just another thought on the NORM question.
I can't speak for everyone but the norm side of me tried so dammed hard to to keep a business going when part of me was somewhere else, so the norm to us maybe proving to ourselves that with have the mental ability to earn a living and provide for a family, I always related it to a car engine, two cylinders were firing normally and two were pulling in an entirely different direction .
Some might say I was lucky and others say a terrible distraction but as professional photographer for thirty years I had to arrange hundreds of wedding dresses, secretly all I wanted was to be one of the bridesmaids, some of those dresses did get through to me sometimes !!

[sometimes_miss]

Did you even read these stings from plentyoffish? The clear and overwhelming response is that women are open to it.
Well, of the ones that I can identify as most likely being female in the first four pages of the first thread, here:

1 well i guess if thats what a guy likes its ok but i'm not a big fan of it
2 i'm really not in to any guy right now except kyle where having twins
3 I don't like them cause some of those guys can look way better than me and that's just not fair...;)....
I let ppl. be, It's cool I give them their space..
4 no thanks.......
5 Not really. It doesn't excite me in any way, if that's what you mean. I suppose I could live with a guy who does it as long as he doesn't steal my clothes.
6 Sorry folks,...I thought I was open minded but this is where I draw the line as it does nothing for me.....but to each their own as long as you are happy go for it!
7 No, but I do like guys in make up...Dave Navarro type make up, not stripper girl make up, but I think a lot of guys look a lot better in make up than we do!
8 It's not for me. I would think that a woman would kind of have to be into women to be attracted to a man dressed as a woman. Or at least bi-sexual. JMO!
9 Think of myself as a liberal kinda gal. But no wouldn't do anything for me, unless it was funny, eg going to see The Rocky Horror Picture Show, then I would prob expect him to dress up. I would too.
10 Hi, i don't mind them - and I also have a lot of respect for them, for not being so taken back by society that they are able to show who they feel they are. I don't mind so long as its not continuously shoved in somebodies face if they don't particually feel comfortable with it. On a romantic level, I don't tink I would ever be able to be emotionally involved with somebody - but I would certainly be friends with somebody.
11 each to their own and if thats what floats your boat fair enough, personally for me i am not keen as i like my men to be manly.
12 I love em! Heterosexual men in skirts, Gladiator style? Glam rocks! * this one, while seemingly positive, embraces only 'gladiator' style skirts. Not feminine style.
13I have nothing against someone who is a crossdresser,but I don't know if I
would want to date one.
14 All I have to say is: Leather Kilts * positive again, but again not feminine attire.
15 I thought I already posted to this thread. Guess not. Know I posted to others like it tho. Bottom line is it depends who it is. Could be lots of fun. But this question is much like 'do you like guys in jeans?', 'how about guys in uniform?', 'scuba gear?' etc. Depends who it is. Some guys are hot no matter what they are or aren't wearing. Some aren't. And the yes or no vote varies between respondents. *This one is mixed.
16 Lol, darlin' that just DON'T churn my butter, lol...but if any of you guys like doin' that, knock yaself out!
17 Nope, keep your boxer-briefs on!
18 I was intimate with one...but he was in the closet about it. Didn't find out until I found him dressed in thigh highs and heels on another site. He was KINKY...I loved it. * Ahh, finally a positive one!
19 Personally, I like transexual men. The kind who take it serious, always dress like girls, have glued in or woven extensions, etc etc. It's like being bisexual without being bisexual? But that's just me. *another positive!
20 I tried to be ok with it but it did break us up in the end. Each to their own but its not for me sorry.
21 the guy is demented and needing counseling NOTTTTTTTTTTT a turn on at all
22 It's an instant turn off for me.
23 give me a man in a corset, fishnets and heels any day ... *another positive!
24 Definitely NOT. TOTAL turn off.
25 I think its cool to be totaly honest * + again.
26 if he is cute, i like it.
27 I like my men straight and Toppy.
28 I may like them as friends, and to each his/her own. HOWEVER, in terms of dating I will be the ONLY one wearing heels, make-up and lingerie
29 Think i could accept it and everything and certainly wouldn't have a problem with it but i can't ay i'd look for it ina guy..
30 It just doesn't do anything to excite me. I like my man to be a manly man!!!!
31 You are just going to have to buy your own clothes dude cause you ain't wearing mine.
32 Not a turn on! No thanks!
33 I used to live with /date a Tranny in Lauderdale
34 I don't ever wish to date a crossdresser..............ever!
35 on my term would be ok but not sure id like it if they insisted on wearing my dresses
36 I'm not sure I'd want to date a man who seriously loved dressing like a woman..
37 I have a few friends that crossdress. But date? No. I want my man looking like a man
38 it's not my thing...but to each their own...I like me a manly man...
39 girls do you like cross dressers Personally I think they are very sick !!
40 I am sexually attracted to a man. Men (in my mind) don't share my clothing and makeup. Not knocking it. Just saying it's not something I would ever consider for myself.
41 I dress my boy up all the time :) He looks especially pretty in white fishnet thigh hi's and lace booty shorts.
42 I don't think I could date a crossdresser
43 I think they're queers
44 I have nothing against cross dressers but it is my preference not to date a man who likes to dress up like a woman

If you call that a clear and overwhelming indication that women are open to it, we 'clearly' read things differently. What it best indicates, is when you look for something, that's what you're more likely to see.

There are some positive, but mostly negative. There are even some which seem to think that wearing a kilt or gladiator outfit is considered crossdressing, and I wonder how they would feel about the same guy in a cheerleader uniform instead of that gladiator skirt, because it's what we'd more likely wish to wear. Some seem to be on the fence; perhaps not sure until they're in a relationship with one of us. Of course, over the years when I tried to contact the ones who seemed 'open to it', I got no response back. Doesn't mean they weren't open to it, just that there simply aren't anywhere's near enough women that ARE open to crossdressing, to go around for each of us to have one of our very own.


Cross dressing is one thing, not all things.
Yes, it's 'only' one thing. But it IS the 800 pound gorilla in the living room, not the fly on the windowsill

[mykell]

noun
noun: norm; noun: the norm
1.
something that is usual, typical, or standard.


jen, why do you feel that dolovewell's original comment is negative, its dolovewell's "norm"
its different than jennifer@home's "norm" on your "litmus test" a tolerant crossdresser support site of mostly older married crossdressers.

dolovewellis dating and doing what is described and even preached by some here as the right thing to do.....be honest about it in the beginning of the relationship,
i shared a post from platapus_man from 2016 from the dating site somtimesmiss shared, it is current it is relevant and it is from someone who is dating and sharing with potential partners that he is indeed a crossdresser and shared his "norm"

so everybody has a different "norm" why would it make it negative if it does not match yours....for all three of these examples it is theyre truth....

[ellbee]

Lexi, didn't you hear? That's the overwhelming majority being "open" to it!

In which case, I'd hate to hear from those who are *against* the idea. :confused3:



Anyway, let's not spoil the fantasy that everybody in the world just loves CD'ers.

Because it's only the experiences of a certain few here which are obviously the norm everywhere for everyone, don't you know... :rolleyes: ;)

[MelanieAnne]

It is the norm. And this forum abounds with stories of those who came out and it didn't end well!

[ellbee]

Nah, it's pretty apparent that the hypothetical CD'er in this case obviously did something wrong to everyone -- otherwise, all those GG's would be totally into it, don't you know! ;)


Maybe she just didn't have her head up, shoulders back & a smile on her face? :strugglin

[Tina_gm]

Wow, interesting thread. A lot of it has to do with any individuals circumstance. Some find partners who do not have a big issue with it. Others find partners that all have big issues with it. Some areas are a bit easier in acceptance than others. Those that live in more accepting areas vs those who live in less accepting areas.

Just recently I vacationed for a week in Florida. Went to several different places. I also observed that there is a lot of work in the state right now. Seems to be that the Florida's economy is doing better than many other states right now. So, a lot of blue collar guys around. And ya know what, they ain't the same as the blue collar guys in my area. Many of the women in my area also are decidedly into the macho hardcore masculinity. It is what it is in the area in which I live. Thankfully I do travel enough to keep my sanity and know that the entire world is not like where I live.

In here I call it the bubble. Many of us surround ourselves with people and perhaps partners and live in places that generally are more accepting than not accepting. And that is a good thing, a smart thing really, because why live with such dislike or vial hatred? It only makes sense. To those who are late to the party, maybe only now discovering themselves or at least to the extent of themselves (me for one) We formed our life without ever looking or seeking acceptance. We didn't accept ourselves. I was born and raised where I live now. For whatever reason, most likely socio economics, it has slid very far down in a lot of ways. So it is even more of a non accepting place then it was decades ago, not that it ever was an overly accepting place, but now where I live really dives right to the bottom of non accepting places and people. I have A LOT invested in my life, and just packing up and moving to a more accepting area is not just something I can do on a whim. 3 more years till my 1st window to retire. Do I give that up? Do I take that big of a financial hit? I have one in college and another one soon. I have 2 houses, great benefits.... Both my wife and I are lucky in the job security we have.

Just about anywhere I go I see more accepting places and people than where I live. I could chuck it all and live where it better suits my gender issues. I could make my wife more uncomfortable, I could upset my sick elderly mother, confuse my kids....