Deception Only Hinders Dressing

[Anita Mae GG]

A recent thread inspired my thread. First let me say that I am in no way putting anyone down or anything. Just my thoughts here......please don't take offense.

I have read recently and not so recently in here about some of you girls having issues with yourselves and your wives in relation to crossdressing. Now I know not everyone has an accepting wife. That is obvious but what I don't understand is WHY you haven't told her (if you haven't already).

For those with unccepting wives:

You have to take agood hard look at your relationships. If she knows and has tried to accept but it has been YEARS and she is not willing at this point, then you have to re-evaluate your relationship. If she hasn't changed by now she probably isn't going to.


For those who haven't told their wives:

You need to do that NOW. If you wait it'll only be worse. The realistic reaction is going to be hurt and anger and confusion. But the longer you wait the more magnified these reactions will be. They will feel even more betrayed etc. Every day that goes by that you don't tell her is another day you have deceived her. Whether it be out of fear, or love for her...you need to not deceive her anymore. If you have been together a few years or more, she is going to be hurt no matter what, no basically you have nothing to lose. The sooner you tell her the more time you have to help her understand. Worst case, she leaves...but if I can try and put a positive spin on that.....that is a chance for you to find yourself and someone who loves you for ALL of you!

Bottom line is this....if she is not willing to learn about crossdressing and at least TRY and accept it, then she probably won't anytime in the future. In the meantime you are stifling your true self and hurting yourself by shutting a part of you down. That is not fair to anyone.

No one should feel that they cannot be their true selves. Or feel that they have to hide from the one person they love most. Put your whole self out there and see what happens. If things with your wives were meant to be then they will be. If not then that is your chance for freedom and acceptance from someone else. Not all wives are unaccepting...you can find someone who loves ALL of you. It is possible.

Now I am in no way telling you all to leave your wives and children. I am telling you that YOU are responsible for your OWN happiness and if you can't be true self without fear...then that makes for a miserable person. You all need to talk to your wives and figure out if your relationships are going to change for the better or if you are better off moving on.

There seems to be a lot of unhappy girls in here that have to hide themselves in their own homes......is it worth it to live your life as someone you are not ...........????

Good luck and God Bless!!! :happy:

[ladyelaine]

Thanks for sharing this Tammy, especially the last and longest part about the need for not hiding or deceiving another. Separate from the matter of cding, a wonderful point to make, but, for those of us having issues with others respecting our choices as "gender gifted," this is especially meaningful. We might not be accepted, but if we are honest we at least are making our first steps. Kindest regards.

Elaine

[katiecd2004]

I agree Tammy!

I talked to my girlfriend about this stuff when we first started dating. It is something that I can't control, it is just there. She was very supportive and understood this whole crazy society we live in.

She told me she has often thought about how ironic it is that a girl can go out with a t-shirt and jeans on(guy type clothing) and no make-up, and go ride four-wheelers in the woods...But it is wrong if guys want to dress in a skirt and heels and go shopping! Why is the world like that??

My point is, communication is very important to any relationship! I'm just lucky to have a SO that understands!

Katie

[Kimberley]

Tammy,
I fit into the first category and wont argue your thoughts on the matter other than to say that it is extrememly difficult to throw away 35 years not only of marriage but the subsequent explanations to friends and family. I think most of us in this position would say the same thing.
As for me personally, it is an issue I am dealing with with my counsellor. Her comment? "I dont know how to treat your wife at a distance." Speaks volumes doesnt it? All I can do is try to work to a point of personal acceptance or throw it all away.
i think that those of us at this stage, who have tossed in the towel probably have considerably less of a lifestyle than before including some deep regrets and increased mental problems, although that could be debatable because one set of problems get exchanged for another. I think most of us hope for a compromise somewhere on some level and are willing to fight for that.
I only wish it was a perfect world with a black and white solution.
Thanks for the input. It is ALWAYS appreciated.

Kimberley.

[JoAnnDallas]

TammyGG... If your avatar is real, then you are what in your 20/30's. As a CDr that is approaching 60 and still in the closet with my wife, I will be the first to say YES tell her at the beginning of your relationship. BUT for those of us that are older, you don't have a clue. you don't know how society was when we were younger and starting out.

As I have stated in other posts, today people on the most part are more tolerant than they were when I was your age. If I was outed when I was younger (20-30), I could have very well ended up tied to a fence and had all types of things done to me. That happen to a friend of mine who told a buddy he was "GAY". My friend died of the adbuse.

I don't make judgements of others. I have seen too much injustice to allow myself to make judgements. If they are a friend, then I will stick by them and not adbandom them just because they are different. Oherwise I stay nothing and if someone askes me what I think, I usually reply " When you reach my age, you will understand, until then you don't have a clue".

[Anita Mae GG]

Tammy,
I fit into the first category and wont argue your thoughts on the matter other than to say that it is extrememly difficult to throw away 35 years not only of marriage but the subsequent explanations to friends and family. I think most of us in this position would say the same thing.
As for me personally, it is an issue I am dealing with with my counsellor. Her comment? "I dont know how to treat your wife at a distance." Speaks volumes doesnt it? All I can do is try to work to a point of personal acceptance or throw it all away.
i think that those of us at this stage, who have tossed in the towel probably have considerably less of a lifestyle than before including some deep regrets and increased mental problems, although that could be debatable because one set of problems get exchanged for another. I think most of us hope for a compromise somewhere on some level and are willing to fight for that.
I only wish it was a perfect world with a black and white solution.
Thanks for the input. It is ALWAYS appreciated.

Kimberley.

Kimberley,

I understand being invested in a relationship, IF you can find a way to be HAPPY with an unaccepting spouse and can be a peace with yourself., then that is great! I am merely saying that if you CAN'T and are miserable then maybe you need to take a deeper look at things.

No one should live an unhappy life......we only get one shot in this world.....:)

I am sure some on here are as invested in you and it is hard to turn away from that but if you can find a place in your relationship to be happy, that is fantastic :happy:

[Anita Mae GG]

TammyGG... If your avatar is real, then you are what in your 20/30's. As a CDr that is approaching 60 and still in the closet with my wife, I will be the first to say YES tell her at the beginning of your relationship. BUT for those of us that are older, you don't have a clue. you don't know how society was when we were younger and starting out.

As I have stated in other posts, today people on the most part are more tolerant than they were when I was your age. If I was outed when I was younger (20-30), I could have very well ended up tied to a fence and had all types of things done to me. That happen to a friend of mine who told a buddy he was "GAY". My friend died of the adbuse.

I don't make judgements of others. I have seen too much injustice to allow myself to make judgements. If they are a friend, then I will stick by them and not adbandom them just because they are different. Oherwise I stay nothing and if someone askes me what I think, I usually reply " When you reach my age, you will understand, until then you don't have a clue".

I am just wondering WHY you wouldn't want to try and be accepted by your wife instead of being in the closet.....

I do have a clue what it was like...things have even evolved sonce I was younger. But if you are happy being in the closet then that is your choice. I just think living unhappy or in fear isn't the best choice. Though at this point you have deceived your wife for a VERY long time (assuming she has no clue) she would be devastated at your deceit. I am not saying you absolutely MUST tell her (at people for your stage) but I don't understand living as a person you truly are not.. Do you think you would be happier being free to be who you are or closeted and with the woman you love.......I gues that is each persons decision to make......


My avatar IS real and I am 34 years old :)

I understand your points and thank you for your insight :)

[JoAnnDallas]

Tammy Marie GG....As for myself, I'm very happy with my choice NOT to tell my wife. I have my reasons, as I stated in another post. Yes, I wish I could be JoAnn more openly, but I put my wife first and foremost. If it means staying in the closet, I am very happy to do so.

All I am saying, is DON'T be so judgemental, IMHO it only shows INTOLERANCE.

[Anita Mae GG]

Tammy Marie GG....As for myself, I'm very happy with my choice NOT to tell my wife. I have my reasons, as I stated in another post. Yes, I wish I could be JoAnn more openly, but I put my wife first and foremost. If it means staying in the closet, I am very happy to do so.

All I am saying, is DON'T be so judgemental, IMHO it only shows INTOLERANCE.

JoAnn, I am glad that you are happy with your decision. That is AWESOME. I am NOT being judgemental. I started this thread in response to those who are complaining that they are unhappy .........

For those happy with how your life is...I am truly happy FOR you. That is awesome that you can find that balance and still feel happiness etc. Please don't take this thread the wrong way. I was not trying to be judgemental, merely saying that you should explore all of your options IF you are unhappy.......

BTW, I am NOT intolerant...I think my posts reflect that...

[ashlee chiffon]

i understand the wives and relationship necessities for honesty and being totally upfront..
but at what point do you discuss the urges to dress with a new girlfriend from a GG's point of view? Just trying to get a feel as i am getting to know a new gal and i can go either way with it in my mind, at least until i feel it's necessary or i have her trust...lots of issues bringing things up with someone you're not sure of..

[Anita Mae GG]

i understand the wives and relationship necessities for honesty and being totally upfront..
but at what point do you discuss the urges to dress with a new girlfriend from a GG's point of view? Just trying to get a feel as i am getting to know a new gal and i can go either way with it in my mind, at least until i feel it's necessary or i have her trust...lots of issues bringing things up with someone you're not sure of..


I think for me I would want to know after the first few dates where you have decided you want to really get to know each other. But that is a question maybe some of the CD'ers with girlfriends can give you some insight on.... but DEFINITELY when you are VERY serious, pending a marriage etc...but I would want to know WAY before that...before I got too emotionally invested and felt lied to.....

[Kimberley]

Kimberley,

I understand being invested in a relationship, IF you can find a way to be HAPPY with an unaccepting spouse and can be a peace with yourself., then that is great! I am merely saying that if you CAN'T and are miserable then maybe you need to take a deeper look at things.

No one should live an unhappy life......we only get one shot in this world.....:)

I am sure some on here are as invested in you and it is hard to turn away from that but if you can find a place in your relationship to be happy, that is fantastic :happy:
*********
Tammy,
I am working on it both here and with the pdoc. It isnt easy by any means and the choices to remain "closeted" or give up a marriage are not easy. It took me 50+ years to get here so an overnight solution is not to be expected.

Keep it up girl, you are always giving us something to think about one way or another. :)

Kimberley

[Sophia Rearen]

Tammy Marie,
Good stuff here. I believe that a lot of the not telling has to do with self acceptance. If a cd isn't 100% ok with who they are, then they may be emotionally fragile to deal with the possibilty of losing one's SO or wife. Look at all the examples of the cd that got marrried without telling the wife. Most say something along this line, "when I married her, I thought the issue or desire would go away". This, to me, means they have not accepted themselves for who they are. When one reaches self acceptance it is important to be able to share the acceptance with someone. Hopefully, the SO or wife. Without self acceptance telling a SO or wife that he/she is a cd/tg is like sending a boxer into a ring with his hands tied behind him. He can only take a beating. The beating the cd fears is emotional, not physical. Now, arming one's self with self acceptance, a dialogue can be created, and hopefully a positive outcome. Without it, the only defense is being defensive and typically that is not good outcome.

[Anita Mae GG]

*********
Tammy,
I am working on it both here and with the pdoc. It isnt easy by any means and the choices to remain "closeted" or give up a marriage are not easy. It took me 50+ years to get here so an overnight solution is not to be expected.

Keep it up girl, you are always giving us something to think about one way or another. :)

Kimberley


Good for you for getting there at all!!!!...................I hope you find peace and happiness! Good luck!!!

[Anita Mae GG]

Sophia,
Very good insight...thank you!!!!!

Even though I probably ticked some people off (which was never my intention), I think we can all learn from this thread :)

[Julie Avery]

i understand the wives and relationship necessities for honesty and being totally upfront..
but at what point do you discuss the urges to dress with a new girlfriend from a GG's point of view? Just trying to get a feel as i am getting to know a new gal and i can go either way with it in my mind, at least until i feel it's necessary or i have her trust...lots of issues bringing things up with someone you're not sure of..

I suppose if I were in this position I might try to break the ice by wearing some outer garment or accessory that's feminine but not outlandish - could be something as simple as a distinctly feminine ring or watch - ask how she likes it, and take it from there.

[Sophia Rearen]

Even though I probably ticked some people off (which was never my intention), I think we can all learn from this thread :)


Great thread Tammy. We need these from time to time. Thank you for being here and your welcome.

[Anita Mae GG]

Like I just said to Sophia (via PM) I understand the situation..I have seen the fear in my husbands eyes a few times...I am only saying that for those that are absolutely miserable and unhappy because that cannot be themselves, then DO something about it. Start taking the steps to fix the situation :) Ultimately YOU are responsible for YOUR happiness
0.02

[randi_789]

I agree totally with what she says. I have been married 35 years and sure I wish I had told her before we were married, or at least before we had kids, but I didn't. I did bring it up about eight years into the marriage and she expressed dislike of me dressing and made me promise not to do it again. Of course I promised. But of course I couldn't keep the promise. After all these years it is too much to expect her to accept it now. I choose not to tell her only because there is way too much to lose. I love her dearly and cannot hurt her, and I know this probably will based on her reaction those many years ago.

I sit here and read thread after thread saying that we should all tell our wives, and I agree with JoAnn it shouldn't apply to everyone. Some of us make the choice not to tell. Sure I would like to live the lives some of you have where your wife knows, buys you things and goes out with you. But I know my wife. I know how she feels about things. I know what there is to lose, and the benefits of coming out to her are only for me. I have to think of her and of us. That is more important to me than crossdressing in secret. Love is what is important here.

[MsJanessa]

JoAnn, I am glad that you are happy with your decision. That is AWESOME. I am NOT being judgemental. I started this thread in response to those who are complaining that they are unhappy .........

For those happy with how your life is...I am truly happy FOR you. That is awesome that you can find that balance and still feel happiness etc. Please don't take this thread the wrong way. I was not trying to be judgemental, merely saying that you should explore all of your options IF you are unhappy.......

BTW, I am NOT intolerant...I think my posts reflect that...
Probably doesn't want to pay all that alimony and property split that a messy divorce would entail----at age 34 it's not too expensive to get divorced at age 60+ it could cost a lot---by all means tell your wife but only if you can accept the fact that she may well leave you and take half of your property and an annual third of your salery in addition until she is deceased.

[MelissaM]

Wow what a great post Tammy!! I agree 2000%. Honesty and communication is what keeps a relationship going. Trust. Well done!

[Kimberley]

Like I just said to Sophia (via PM) I understand the situation..I have seen the fear in my husbands eyes a few times...I am only saying that for those that are absolutely miserable and unhappy because that cannot be themselves, then DO something about it. Start taking the steps to fix the situation :) Ultimately YOU are responsible for YOUR happiness
0.02
************
I think you hit something right on the head. Fear. It is our greatest enemy but also our protector. It is something we all live with whether we are out or not, it is always there.

Kimberley

[Kimberley]

I agree with the divorce thing. The longer a marriage exists not only do you have significant emotion invested but also finance. It is easy to say I am not materialistic as you open a can of cat food for your dinner at age 70.

Kimberley

[Anita Mae GG]

I did bring it up about eight years into the marriage and she expressed dislike of me dressing and made me promise not to do it again. Of course I promised. But of course I couldn't keep the promise.

If you can live with the deceit then so be it. I am mainly aiming this thread at those that complain and whine that their wives don't understand and they aren't ahppy...and so on......

Basically as I have said, if you aren't happy then DO something to change it, or stop complaining....

Fear is a factor. I have fear regarding this, as a matter of fact I just expressed this to my husband. BUT that does not mean I am going to stop moving forward with what we arew doing as a couple to overcome BOTH of our fears. We will keep working towards our joint goal.

Take the fear and turn it into something that will make you happy. If you chose to keep it a secret and you "promised" things and didn't keep them, well that is YOUR conscience you have to deal with and if you can deal with it and live happily then all the power to you :)

It's interesting to see the different points of view on this.....

[JMO2]

I was upfront and honest with my SO or future wife and I was met with " Well its just a phaze....right".
I am an active crossdresser and have been since 14 years old or so and told her this when we got togather. She still thinks its a phaze. To make things just a little worse she thinks now that I have completely "outgrown it"
How do you confront this, that, it is in your makeup. (no pun intended)
Honesty may be the best policy and all that but this is a little hard for me to keep hashing out with her when she appears to be happier when she thinks I have "outgrown it".

[Krissi]

I told my wife while we were still dating, an opportunity presented itself, we were talking about kinks and fetishes and such and since crossdressing wasn't the weirdest thing mentioned in those conversations I put it out there. I never really felt the pressure of hiding from a spouse, now I hid and still hide from parents/brother/inLaws and will forever and sometimes that can be its own form of torture.

But to me I think a lot of folks over look a very big key factor. Telling your wife/gf/SO is not as much about is she accepting/unaccepting as we tend to think it is. I think it has to do with the communication you have as a couple. It just seems to me that the accepting spouses tend to be from couples that talk openly about things (and not just whats for dinner or how was work) but really get into who each other is, their dreams (not goals) their desires. And what I mean is I have a goal to have my own office in a few years, thats something everyone knows. But I have a dream that I can lose enough weight, get in good enough shape that I can go out dressed on a special occasion and not feel embarrassed in my own mind. Obviously I'm not telling that one to many people.

When I give advice to others on how to tell their wife, its always more about talking to her, not telling her. No one wants to hear that old phrase "we need to talk." You have to ease into these things. Start talking about things, asking her what she likes, letting her know what you like things like that.

And JoAnn makes a very valid point. When you've been down this road a long time, its harder than ever to come out. Times have changed, but that also depends on where you are too. I was just talking to a girl that works here in our office a couple days a week about how open the gay students are here in the high schools. Now I live in a metro area, it doesn't seem to matter as much who is gay, who's dating interracially or anything like that. I'm from a small country town, and still to this day, theres no openly gay folks in town, no one dates another race, people start to talk if you date someone more than a couple years of your age. I really think that if I had married a girl from back home, I'd probably still be hiding myself. I know I would if we lived there. Might be different say if we lived here.

My long drawn out rambling point is that there is more to coming out than just telling her so you don't have to hide. If you've never told her nothing more in depth than I like Pot Roast, its probably not going to go well. If your scared yourself of everyone else finding out, especially in a small town, then telling her might bring more stress cause its one more person that can leak your "terrible" secret either on purpose or accident. And I've seen a lot of threads talking about how someone thinks they are going to save a rocky relationship by all of a sudden telling the truth. It seems to me that has just led to more ammo for the divorce lawyer.

This was a great thread, a good topic to get folks talking. And it sounds to me like Tammy Marie is one of those special ladies that listens and tries to understand us, and its great to see her here with a thread that makes us think about our own situations.

[Anita Mae GG]

I was upfront and honest with my SO or future wife and I was met with " Well its just a phaze....right".
I am an active crossdresser and have been since 14 years old or so and told her this when we got togather. She still thinks its a phaze. To make things just a little worse she thinks now that I have completely "outgrown it"
How do you confront this, that, it is in your makeup. (no pun intended)
Honesty may be the best policy and all that but this is a little hard for me to keep hashing out with her when she appears to be happier when she thinks I have "outgrown it".

I think you need to get some info together, give it to her and tell her it is not just a phase and talk to her about it :)

[Anita Mae GG]

Good point Krissi. youhave to be able to communicate with your wife. If you haven't then you have put yourself in the position to have to work twice as hard as someone who has an open relationship....

[Keyplayer74]

I agree that honesty is the best policy. I tell my wife about everything else in my life and keep no secrets.. except for this. If I thought there was a way that this would impact her, then I might be inclined to tell her about it. There is something to be said about being able to have a happy marriage, and knowing that "I'm a CD" isn't on her mind. It would probably burden her to know it. Since I will never leave the house, or get active with my CDing (other than just enjoying myself at home) - I don't know what good could come of telling her other than I would have the truth out. Sometimes the truth hurts - how much of the truth do you want out there in the world? Would you want to wear a sign out in public that says, "I'm a CD"? Well, dang if you're going to be honest about it.. you probably should. The thing is.. after I tell my wife, I may as well be wearing that sign AT HOME. I don't want that sign on at home. I have to LIVE with her.. I don't want her to see me as any less of a person. That's what I'm afraid of. Once it's out, it can't be taken back. So I ask myself.. do I want to have as many happy years with her as possible.. or should I tell her and live out the rest of my marriage in shame? I think I'll take my chances with the closet... I have a degree of control over that at least.

[linnea]

Thank you, Tammie,
Your initial comments and the response have been enlightening. I am almost 60, but I have not told any personal friends nor my wife or grown children. I probably won't either. Yes, it is fear, and it is probably self-doubt. I find ways to go out, but I do dislike the deception and, of course, I risk being found out which would probably be messier in some ways than volunteering the information before accident detection.
On the other hand, I worry about the hurt, disillusionment, and anger--none of which I really want to face and deal with.
Since joining this site, however, I have had several revelations and new insights. And I'm trying to keep an open mind and to be honest with myself and others. I'll keep working at it.
Thank you all for your observations and you, Tammie, for initiating the thread.

[nikisbest]

I agree 100% on the being honest with your spouse.
When there have been years gone by and you have kept a secret
from your spouse, chances are your not going to tell them.
There is only one more thing I would like to say about this, how come
when a GG makes a comment about something like this, there is ALWAYS
someone, that has to say (YOUR JUDGING ME.) Lord help, these ladies arent
judging you, far from it. If they were judging us, they would have been on
this site bashing us for wearing something that is taboo, and doesnt really
fit well with society today.
Sorry I went off on that one, I just hate to hear someone say that about
any of the ladies on this site. We have enough problems dealing with close-
minded people, to jump on our supporters on this site.
OK, I am off my soap box.
Niki

[Wenda]

[QUOTE=Krissi It just seems to me that the accepting spouses tend to be from couples that talk openly about things (and not just whats for dinner or how was work) but really get into who each other is, their dreams (not goals) their desires.
This quote speaks loudly to my situation. My ex, whom I married when I was not yet 22 and she only 5 days 19, really didnt realize how strict her beliefs were. She helped me build a Wonder Woman outfit for a Halloween party, but never considered it crossdressing.
As I may have disclosed in prior posts, my urge to dress was not strong during my marriage. We separated in 2000, and I found my GF shortly after. Completely different personality. Non judgemental (maybe the result of oppressive religious school), and accepting.
When I rediscovered dressing in July, 2004, it truly was a re-awakening experience. I was in another city, and bought several items on my way home. During the six hour drive, I visualized (fantasized) how my discussion was going to evolve.
My GF did not share my new enthusiasm, however, and was hopeful that I could get a full refund for some of my stuff. She was open to change however, and we went from there. Without pressing the issue, but always replying honestly, Wenda became more and more accepted. By October, when we went to a festival in ND, she was moderately comfortable with Wenda.
Wenda brought a small pair of breast forms, a little bra, a thong, some thigh high stockings, and Jaya, my GFs alter ego was discovered. They had a great time (on my VIS card), and since then, have had a good, but somewhat complex relationship.
My point in this long story is that you can share your innermost feelings and desires with some partners, but not others. My ex was not a bad person, just trapped in her grandmothers social values.
Even if you can share your secret desires and dreams, it takes trust and time to be sufficiently confident with your partner to share something that many still view as abnormal. my two cents worth,

[Katiegirl]

Tammy Marie GG

You have made some very good points and with our younger members to tell their SO/girlfriend at the beginning of the relationship is a wise move.

As many of the older members have said in my youth TG's were in fear of ridical, being beaten up, loosing their job as well as their marriage and its hard to overcome that fear.

My wife did find out and divorced me citing my dressing as the cause, her solicitor(lawyer) advised her to tell my friends and threatened to restrict assess to my children. The tactic was to wear me down so I would give up everything, it didn't work and after a bitter fight there was a settlement that both of were able to live with. When the fight was over I found that I had only one or two friends left and things were difficult at work, so I moved away and started again.

Once the legal people were out of the way we built up a working arrangement that benefited the kids. A few years after the divorce in one of the very rare comments made by her on my dressing, it would seem that she feared my dressing would have been bad for the kids and that was one of the main reasons she divorced me.

Although I agree with all you said, the effect on children was not mentioned, and I know that this is a worry to many both closited and out. What are your thoughts of this!

I live alone now and able to express my female side when I want, but also I have a good social life with many female friends. I have not told them about Katie, but now if they ever found out I would discuss it with them.

I am glad that we have several GG like yourself who express their opinions well, keep posting.

:)

[BrendaB GG]

Hi Tammie

I think your post is right on. I'm not as young as you are, I'm 47, so right in the middle of the extremes. We were married 28 years when my husband came out to me. He married me because he loved me and he thought that love would cure him. So you all know how that turned out!

Anyways, just over a year ago, he placed a book in my lap, and asked me to read it and then of course I knew. I then read another book on my own, and learned everything I could. Also my husband is not only a crossdresser, he's a transexual and I don't know what the future holds (do any of us, really?).

But I do know that i can't walk away from 28 years of love and that he treats me like a princess, even though I know he wants to be the princess sometimes too. We have 4 kids, a grandchild, a business and yes, its all just so complicated. But call me Pollyanna, I believe that all will work out and my husband is still the same person (only now so many things make sense to me finally!).

And you know what, i wish he had told me many years sooner, we have lost a lot of years of fun and excitement together. I'm willing to bet that my life is way more interesting than anybody I know! And my husband is happier than I have ever seen him.

Yeah, so I'm with Tammie. Find a way to tell your wives.

Brenda

[Sophia Rearen]

. We were married 28 years when my husband came out to me. He married me because he loved me and he thought that love would cure him. So you all know how that turned out!

Anyways, just over a year ago, he placed a book in my lap, and asked me to read it and then of course I knew. I then read another book on my own, and learned everything I could. Also my husband is not only a crossdresser, he's a transexual and I don't know what the future holds (do any of us, really?).

But I do know that i can't walk away from 28 years of love and that he treats me like a princess, even though I know he wants to be the princess sometimes too. We have 4 kids, a grandchild, a business and yes, its all just so complicated. But call me Pollyanna, I believe that all will work out and my husband is still the same person (only now so many things make sense to me finally!).

And you know what, i wish he had told me many years sooner, we have lost a lot of years of fun and excitement together. I'm willing to bet that my life is way more interesting than anybody I know! And my husband is happier than I have ever seen him.


Brenda


Wow, one of the most powerful replies I have read in a long time. Brenda, you're beautiful! :yrtw::clap:

[Veronica E. Scott]

Why is youth wasted on the young and that hind sight is always 20-20. In my case I grew up in a small fishing village in Massachusetts called Brant Rock all of my family lived there and still do What do you think would happen if I came out and told them that there son and grandson and nephew great nephew and great great grand nephew great great grandson liked to gress like a girl and wear girlie thing and then when he got married told his wife to be that he wanted to dress like a girl, especially in a very small town . In colonial times he would be beaten at the steak in the town center and this has happened to some of my relatives and I have documentation on this fact now it is in the 60ies and you want me to disclose to the whole town thAT i AM A LITTLE WEIRD you must have put your head on backwards this morning or you don't live in the same world that I do you learn at a very early age to keep your mouth shut and mind your own business and you dont go around telling people about your own personal business.

[Kimberley]

I agree 100% on the being honest with your spouse.
When there have been years gone by and you have kept a secret
from your spouse, chances are your not going to tell them.
There is only one more thing I would like to say about this, how come
when a GG makes a comment about something like this, there is ALWAYS
someone, that has to say (YOUR JUDGING ME.) Lord help, these ladies arent
judging you, far from it. If they were judging us, they would have been on
this site bashing us for wearing something that is taboo, and doesnt really
fit well with society today.
Sorry I went off on that one, I just hate to hear someone say that about
any of the ladies on this site. We have enough problems dealing with close-
minded people, to jump on our supporters on this site.
OK, I am off my soap box.
Niki
************
Nikki, you are right however, some of the GG's here are struggling as much as we are and sometimes they forget we are here to support them as much as they are for each other.

When that happens and she "lets loose" to vent, that is fine as long as it isnt destructive criticism. It doesnt happen often, but it does happen just as some of us do the same. I know I have and I dont mind being told about it either. Even at that, we hear the same judgment comment in threads started by one of us. We are a very diverse group and the great thing about this forum is that we can express ourselves as long as we are honest about it.

My observation seems to be the difference in generations that generally seem to lead to misunderstanding, particularly where communication is the topic. We older ones come from a different time and place where the attitudes were anything but tolerant in any way shape or form. The younger generations have more tolerance and sometimes they struggle to understand why we act and think as we do. There is nothing wrong with that as long as they take in our position as well.

The GG's are all great ladies and have a lot of strength that many of us could use. I always consider their opinions whether I agree with them or not because they are usually well thought out.

Thanks again Tammy. Great Thread!
Kimberley

[VeronicaMoonlit]

But I know my wife. I know how she feels about things. I know what there is to lose, and the benefits of coming out to her are only for me. I have to think of her and of us. That is more important to me than crossdressing in secret. Love is what is important here.

You don't "know". You may guess, but you don't really know with certainty. You're also taking away her opportunity to know and that's important.

I'm not married, but I did the same thing you did with my parents and sister. Not tell, to protect them (and me) out of fear of what they "might" say or do. I was guilty of selling their love short, and not trusting in them. I was wrong to do that.


Veronica

[Sophia Rearen]

I agree that honesty is the best policy. I tell my wife about everything else in my life and keep no secrets.. except for this. If I thought there was a way that this would impact her, then I might be inclined to tell her about it. There is something to be said about being able to have a happy marriage, and knowing that "I'm a CD" isn't on her mind. It would probably burden her to know it. Since I will never leave the house, or get active with my CDing (other than just enjoying myself at home) - I don't know what good could come of telling her other than I would have the truth out. Sometimes the truth hurts - how much of the truth do you want out there in the world? Would you want to wear a sign out in public that says, "I'm a CD"? Well, dang if you're going to be honest about it.. you probably should. The thing is.. after I tell my wife, I may as well be wearing that sign AT HOME. I don't want that sign on at home. I have to LIVE with her.. I don't want her to see me as any less of a person. That's what I'm afraid of. Once it's out, it can't be taken back. So I ask myself.. do I want to have as many happy years with her as possible.. or should I tell her and live out the rest of my marriage in shame? I think I'll take my chances with the closet... I have a degree of control over that at least.

Not to disagree. Just some thoughts. You're ok with her not knowing the real you then? And, since you haven't told her, you don't know what her reaction would be, so you really can't assume, can you?

[JoannaDees]

Excellent advice! The stress of secrets is horrible, and time only makes it worse. I'm scared silly of trying to meet my girl and having to tell her about this, but tell her I will. Even if she is my huckleberry, and I have no more desire to dress, I'll divulge in case it does come back.

[Anita Mae GG]

you must have put your head on backwards this morning or you don't live in the same world that I do

Actually I do live in your world and my head is on pretty straight and level too! Thanks for input and reminder that diversity is good and can be learned from :)

[ashlee chiffon]

hmmmm...now what low profile item to wear? maybe a hoop earring on my one pierced ear?
how about side zip pants? eyeliner? see thru blouse?
*L*...just KIDDING!

maybe some type of necklace...
now ya gots me thinkin'!

thanks luv..bobby

and Tammy Marie...i understand what you're saying completely and in my last 12 year relationship, it was that way from day one *my so's previous boyfriend was a cd!*
....but in a future relationship, i think i could live with just wearing panties and an occasional nightgown if that was all my SO would tolerate...
maybe i could playfully ask a new potential gf *i'm single now* if she would mind me trying on her panties and see how it goes from there. Would that work?

[Anita Mae GG]

hmmmm...now what low profile item to wear? maybe a hoop earring on my one pierced ear?
how about side zip pants? eyeliner? see thru blouse?
*L*...just KIDDING!

maybe some type of necklace...
now ya gots me thinkin'!

thanks luv..bobby

and Tammy Marie...i understand what you're saying completely and in my last 12 year relationship, it was that way from day one *my so's previous boyfriend was a cd!*
....but in a future relationship, i think i could live with just wearing panties and an occasional nightgown if that was all my SO would tolerate...
maybe i could playfully ask a new potential gf *i'm single now* if she would mind me trying on her panties and see how it goes from there. Would that work?

if you are happy with only wearing panties then that is fine, you are not makingyourself miserable which is my point...be honest...that is all.

[serinalynn]

Tammy, My wife knows and she accepts me wearing some feminine things, though, shes never seen me in a skirt or a dress, But thats OK, because she lets me wear some very feminine tops and womens, pants and jeans any-thing lingerie, including bras, garter belts and most lacy and frilly lingerie and night gowns. I have my own Lane Bryant charge card and always go to Lane Bryant www.lanebryant.com or Avenue www.avenue.com with dollars off coupons. My wife tells me I have too many feminine clothes, but let there be a sale and she says go buy something. I also do some serious shopping in the Jessica london Catalog www.jessicalondon.com
Go Figure!!! I also have a subscription to Figure Magazine.
www.figuremagazine.com


Serina Lynn

[ashlee chiffon]

honesty Is the best policy and a minimal amount of dressing would make me happy...i could live with just wearing panties daily as i have most of my life *though i would Prefer more*...but more important to me would be to enter into a meaningful, honest, and mutually rewarding relationship with love and trust as the bond! Was in a relationship where i could dress at will...but it lacked in love and it fell apart *after 12 years*...how i regret letting what i "thought" my urges were and selfishly letting them contribute to it falling apart. I know i'm going to shower my next love with lingerie and clothes if i can't do it for myself. If i'm lucky, it'll be for both of us!:thumbsup:

[Ava Mouse]

Tammy,

I was driven to tell my wife, and I was ready to purge everything, go to counseling and never wear another feminine thing again. The real force behind it was indeed a closer intimate honesty with my wife.

She accepts it, with limitations. Very reasonable limitations. ;)

Am I lucky? No. Luck has nothing to do with it.

I've been 100% faithful to my wife. I've been a gentleman, responsible, reliable, loving, listening and caring husband/father. She knows me very well, so while crossdressing was a shock, she sees that I have integrity dressed or not.

Our relationship was able to overcome it because we worked hard at building and maintaining it BEFORE I told her.

Your thoughts go right to the core of the married crossdresser. "Does my wife really love me no matter what?" "Do I really love my wife more than anything?.. more than crossdressing?"

The moment of truth! Is my marriage strong enough to survive telling?

For me, there's no doubt in my mind that I love her more than anything and visa versa. There never was any doubt! Opening my closet, I made myself completely vulnerable to her, it wasn't too hard, I did trust her, after all.

BUT! Some of us don't want to know the answers to those questions! The answer might be scarier than getting caught or going out in public.

Be careful Tammy, even angels fear to tread here... ;)

-Ava

[Anita Mae GG]

Thanks Ava I think you are right. I think in order to be able to tell your SO you need to feel confident enough that they truly love you like you think they do..and you have to trust them. If you fear telling them then there is a component missing there somewhere.

I am not trying to put anyone down ..............simply said is this: If you told me 5 years ago I would be married to a crossdresser I would never have believed you...just because I had that taboo association to it that comes from being uneducated.

When Dave told me about Danielle I was shaken up a bit and afraid of the unknown (I still am afraid of the things we haven't ventured into yet) We talk about things though and we are going through this together one step at a time) BUT that being said....I LOVED him enough to be willing to educate myself (and continue to educate myself) about this and accepted him immediately (before I educated myself) and I did that because I LOVE him and TRUST him and saw that he was the SAME person he was before he told me.

We discussed the deceit part of it and I got to understand his fear and anxiety...........because I love him and trust him. He is the same person to me who happens to have a little something special in his personality. Danielle is Dave and I love both of them.

You have to have trust and love to be able to communicate and have a happy life with your SO.......I wish you all had the confidence to talk openly with your SO's and be 100% happy and honest with each other. She may surprise you and accept ALL of you. :happy:

[Sarahgurl371]

Tammy, you make some very good points. I am currently struggling daily with most of the issues you have brought up.

I am 34, been married since 19. Been dressing in some form since I was 6 or 7. Hated myself for it. Never felt right, never fit in. Thought I had found the answer to me dreams in her. Wasn't dressing then, but told her I had. It came back a couple of years into the marraige. I hid it. I knew how she would feel. I again hated myself. All the guilt, fear, anxiety etc.

6 or 7 years ago now, I told her about wearing panties or lingerie. She was all upset, lots of tears, a couple of all nighters, and she said - "if you ever wear a dress I am out of here". What could I do? I love her, almost lost her. So I said nothing. Thought our new found agreement would be enough. It wasn't. I hear all the time that I apparently live CDing more than her. Not true. CDing is just a part of me. I am learning to love me.

Just like you say, I began to not be able to live with myself. Two reasons really. I needed to be honest about myself with her because she deserved the truth, and I needed to be honest with myself as well. And HONEST I have been. I have told her EVERYTHING. That has probably just made matters worse.

So now here we are over two years since then. And I struggle between hurting her or hurting myself (mentally). Apparently we define love differently. I know that this is alot to ask, I have read so much from wive's perspectives. I just wanted to drop the curtain and be me, whatever that is. Your point about if she loved me she would educate herself - apparently people are just plain different. I am just emotionally drained right now, completley lost my thoughts.

So who is better off? Those who hide it, or accept a glimmer of tolerance to be allowed to exist, or those who gamble it all to be themselves. To take the chance that they could find somone similar to yourself.

Look, I have handled this all wrong, I know that. I have apologized, accepted crushing controls on my self expression in an attempt to repent. I have tried to incorporate the "positives" of my "feminine" personality into daily life. I try to lessen her load. When do I get out of jail? I think probably never.

Yeah, what to do. Take a gamble on me. Am I worth it? Or hang in there a little longer. People like you give me hope. But I think you started from a different place. Don't want to hurt her anymore either. Worry that I have scarred her for life. Would she be better off without me?

Your post is pretty much is right where we are. Yes I most certainlly wish to be loved for who I am. I desire the freedom to be me. The right to exist in my own home. I guess I lack the self confidence / acceptance to obtain it. Fear, absolutely. What will everyone think of me? I just want to be me, but am I willing to live a life of lonliness that I feel will most certainlly be the outcome.

Wish I had the answers.

[ashlee chiffon]

"life ain't easy for a boy named Sue!"...whatareyagonnado?
i don't think any of us has the answer..learning to live with our needs and the needs of another are tough enough in a "vanilla" relationship..
i don't blame women for their issues as i, like you, have created a persona of a third person in a relationship of what most women consider as two...We feel that it is all one identity *logical...rational...to us*, but most women fear cd's want to be with guys and that is why they dress...understandible, probably true with a lot but not all, and hard to argue against...the best i have found to do is be on my own until i find another that accepts my dressing and can enjoy the benefits and fun we can have. I think different now that i am older, but still don't understand myself after all these years! i love wormen and their clothes and that is what i feel. It is a fun and greatly enjoyable passion, but quite lonely at times with no one to share it with.Try to make the best of your relationship and hope she can understand and enjoy it with you, because it isn't easy finding another that understands, either. And its lonely, when you are alone and can't share at least a part of it with someone. Good luck and my encouragement to try and make it work out...it'll be worth it!

[HeatherCD]

I agree Tammy!

I talked to my girlfriend about this stuff when we first started dating. It is something that I can't control, it is just there. She was very supportive and understood this whole crazy society we live in.

She told me she has often thought about how ironic it is that a girl can go out with a t-shirt and jeans on(guy type clothing) and no make-up, and go ride four-wheelers in the woods...But it is wrong if guys want to dress in a skirt and heels and go shopping! Why is the world like that??

My point is, communication is very important to any relationship! I'm just lucky to have a SO that understands!

Katie

I second that.. I told my wife when we met. She is accepting and has no real issues with it. If I had waited, she might wonder what else I was hiding from her. I think deep down inside, she is fascinated by the whole idea.

[BethGG]

Ah, so this is the thread you were telling me about ;) I think it's a good post. I know some may feel like it's not realistic, at least for people who are going to someday be in a relationship, they should know that telling someone ASAP is the best way to do it. And by the way, someone mentioned asking to wear their girlfriend's underwear...bad move I think! My bf and I are not able to share clothes(size difference), and I admit I take comfort in that, I think it would be weird(but having seperate girl clothes is fine, don't get me wrong).

My bf told me when we were just friends and not yet dating, though more along the lines of "I go out in drag to clubs sometimes", and then a couple weeks into dating he actually told me more about his CD'ing and explained the mental aspect of it. Although I was a little confused/unsure/afraid at first, I was quite impressed with his bravery to tell me all about it, and I was supportive. As our relationship has gone on, we've had many talks, more details, and I've come to be more and more used to it. Had he never mentioned a thing and then suddenly sprang it on me now, I think I would definitly still be supportive, but I would feel...maybe less trusting. Cause even if you don't mean it in that way, you're still lying to the person.

I think what has helped me and can help other GGs is lots of information. When I realized there were websites/forums/books/ect., I think that helped a great deal in making me feel like it's something many people do, like a subculture, which normalized it for me. I think wives who are upset may benefit greatly from this.

[Anita Mae GG]

I think what has helped me and can help other GGs is lots of information. When I realized there were websites/forums/books/ect., I think that helped a great deal in making me feel like it's something many people do, like a subculture, which normalized it for me. I think wives who are upset may benefit greatly from this.

The "subculture" sentence is EXACTLY how I feel/felt! Funny how we view things sometimes :)..... Nicely put ......

[Anita Mae GG]

Your post is pretty much is right where we are. Yes I most certainlly wish to be loved for who I am. I desire the freedom to be me. The right to exist in my own home. I guess I lack the self confidence / acceptance to obtain it. Fear, absolutely. What will everyone think of me? I just want to be me, but am I willing to live a life of lonliness that I feel will most certainlly be the outcome.
Wish I had the answers.

It is a double edge sword but only YOU can decide what is best for you to do.....your gut will tell you that...good luck!:happy:

[Ms. Donna]

I think what has helped me and can help other GGs is lots of information. When I realized there were websites/forums/books/ect., I think that helped a great deal in making me feel like it's something many people do, like a subculture, which normalized it for me. I think wives who are upset may benefit greatly from this.

0.02

I can't help but feel that referring to crossdressing as a subculture is to refer to it in a marginalizing way. The implication of this is that this is somehow a lifestyle choice. It does nothing to speak to the fact that for most, it is the outward expression of a deeply rooted part of one's core identity.

It is near impossible to deny and act in opposition to what amounts to one's 'identity'. What we do is no more a 'choice' than is our attraction to our partners/wives/etc. One does not 'choose' to be TG - one simply is.

I completely get the spirit in which you use the term subculture. It makes what we do more accessible to those who do not understand it well or at all. In that respect, I can not complain. I would only hope that the subculture aspect is minimized with one's growth in understanding and acceptance.

And yes, this is an excellent thread!

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[BethGG]

0.02

I can't help but feel that referring to crossdressing as a subculture is to refer to it in a marginalizing way. The implication of this is that this is somehow a lifestyle choice. It does nothing to speak to the fact that for most, it is the outward expression of a deeply rooted part of one's core identity.

It is near impossible to deny and act in opposition to what amounts to one's 'identity'. What we do is no more a 'choice' than is our attraction to our partners/wives/etc. One does not 'choose' to be TG - one simply is.

I completely get the spirit in which you use the term subculture. It makes what we do more accessible to those who do not understand it well or at all. In that respect, I can not complain. I would only hope that the subculture aspect is minimized with one's growth in understanding and acceptance.

And yes, this is an excellent thread!

Love & Stuff,
Donna
Oh I didn't mean it that way at all, I know it's not a "lifestyle" or choice, anymore then being gay is a choice. What I mean is that when he first told me, I didn't really know much about CD'ing, I knew about transexuals, and about drag queens, but I didn't realize there was a whole bunch of people inbetween that. So when he told me I had no reference point of "oh, he's a CD'er". It was more like umm ok you wear women's clothes? As I became more informed I realized lots of people do this, it's like a part of the world I never really had seen, you know? Personally when I think subculture I don't think it's the same as choosing, so perhaps I have a different definition then you on it.

[Jenny Warren]

TammyGG... If I was outed when I was younger (20-30), I could have very well ended up tied to a fence and had all types of things done to me.

As a youngster in my early teens (in the mid 1960's) I went into town dressed one Saturday afternoon and was spotted by a group of friends almost immediately.

These were the friends that I hung around with every day at and after school, including my cousin.

One of them ran after me and tried to get me to go back and join them, but I said no and rushed off. (Wish I'd gone now)

They never referred to seeing me afterwards and it made absolutely no difference to our friendship. They certainly didn't tie me to a fence.

About 20 years later, when I decided to tell a friend about Jenny she said "Well I already know about that, we all do"

As she was not one of the group mentioned above I asked her how she knew and she told me that the friends who had seen me that day had freely shared the information.

NONE of my friends has EVER said anything derogotary or stopped being friends with me over my 'outing'.

When it comes to telling your SO I beleive each case is individual and only one person can make that decision.

Jenny

P.S.
I might mention to my SO the tying to a fence thing, she does have a weird sense of fun :)

[JoAnnDallas]

Jenny Warren... You didn't finish the post. I also said that a friend of mine WAS tied to a fence and beaten, because he admitted to his BUDS that he was GAY.
While reading this thread other similiar threads, I have begin to notice a trend that in all these. That is the difference between those that grew up in small close knit towns, like I did, and those that grew up in more metropolitan towns. When you grow up in a small close knit town, something like being GAY, a different race or TG/TS/CD is like going to the Friday night football game and cheering for the rival team. People in these towns have nothing but football and GOSSIP. Anything that is NOT NORMAL in their eyes is PERVERTED. Most of these towns are VERY RELIGIOUS. which adds fuel to the fire. Plus everyone knows everyone else, so there is hardly no secrets. In fact my hometown newspaper prints everything that happens even if it is so and so coming home to visit family and friends.
Growing up in towns like this is very hard. Even when you get older it's still there, even if your thousand miles away in a large metropolitan area like Dallas, Atlanta, New York, and etc. When you have a secret like your a CDer, you hide it, cause it's not just your wife you have to worry about, it's your family that will also suffer, since they may still be living there.
I think Tammy has a good thread, except IMHO, I think she might have open a can of worms that she didn't really want to open. I am not mad at her, this is a good thread. It's just that I like many of us over 50, that grew up in those small towns, can not shake the enviroment that we grew up in. As another also said, as we get older the harder it is for us to fess up to our wifes, cause we have gone this long and do to our and thiers health and monetary status, it may well be TOO LATE, wiether we are happy with our situration or not.

[Ms. Donna]

Oh I didn't mean it that way at all, I know it's not a "lifestyle" or choice, anymore then being gay is a choice. What I mean is that when he first told me, I didn't really know much about CD'ing, I knew about transexuals, and about drag queens, but I didn't realize there was a whole bunch of people inbetween that. So when he told me I had no reference point of "oh, he's a CD'er". It was more like umm ok you wear women's clothes? As I became more informed I realized lots of people do this, it's like a part of the world I never really had seen, you know? Personally when I think subculture I don't think it's the same as choosing, so perhaps I have a different definition then you on it.

Hi Beth,

I realize your intent was not to marginalize and I'm not implying that you were. In fact, as an initial way for one to 'wrap their head' around all of this, it is a pretty good way to look at it. However, as I mentioned, I would hope that as one's understanding increases, the 'subculture aspect' of this would decrease proportionally.

English is a such an imprecise language with people having their own interpretations of almost everything - semantics often gets in the way when discussion socially related terms. Allow me to clarify my interpretation of subculture.

When a group of people are categorized into a 'subculture', it is usually done by some other larger group who perceive themselves as being the primary or dominant group. Those so categotized are, by definition, subordinate to the larger group. They are marginalized because they are now socially positioned at a level below the larger group. They are marginalized because they are no longer a part of the whole. Most often, defined subcultures are seen as something other than normal (another socially loaded term with no clear definition) - with 'normal' being defined by the dominant group with little consideration being given to the marginalized group.

In short, it's about class and power: who has it and who doesn't. Those who have it get to make the rules. Those who don't...


You may find the following of interest as it relates to how I see our place in society.


Back in October of 1999, the following question was posted to the alt.support.crossdressing newsgroup:


It would be helpful if someone could also explain the culture of crossdressing and it's significance in modern societies.

I followed up with the following:


Crossdressing is not a 'culture'. Individuals who crossdress cut across all cultural lines. We are males, females, black, white, oriental, christial, jewish, rich, poor, attractive, homely and all other points inbetween. The thing we all have in common is a lack of affinity towards the gender to which we were assigned at birth. Many of us identify strongly with that gender opposite to that which we were assigned. Others of us reject the binary system of gender which has been enbraced by most, declaring ourselves as something other than either a man or a woman. In all cases, it amounts an individual declaring, for themselves, their identity. Phyllis Burke in her book "Gender Shock" sums this up quite well:


"To cross-dress, whether across class or gender boundaries, means to challenge the identity that society has dictated, to declare that you are not quite what has been determined by powers outside of ourself."

Crossdressing is not about clothing. It is about the meaning associated with the clothing and using that association as a means to establish an identity and sense of self independent of that which has been assigned to us by society.

The significance of this is that we are people who have dared to challenge that which is at the core of how our society is organized. The man/woman dichotomy is assumed to be a natural one. The naturalness of this is bassed on the assumption that men are male and women are female. Sex (male/female) and gender (man/woman) have been linked and assumed to be the same thing. As a rule, most people use the two terms interchangably. The problem is that the two are not the same thing.

Basically, sex is biology. It's about plumbing and parts. I won't deny the male/female dichotomy, although even that is not as clear cut as one might like. One need only line up people and have a look to see that there is some basis for it.

Gender, however, is not about biology. Gender, in it's colloquial usage, refers to "the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex." The key here being typically associated. While a gender may be typically associated with a specific sex, it is not a hard and fast rule.

It is important to note that as it is about "the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex", gender is not something static or fixed. It changes from culture to culture and over time. In short, gender is culturally defined and ergo is not something natural or innate. That society has choosen to link it to sex is not to imply that gender 'naturally' follows from one's sex. And yet, that is exactially how children are raised. Males are raised as boys and females are raised as girls. At no time are the feelings of the child taken into consideration on this point. In fact, children exhibiting non-conforming gender traits are corrected immediately. The assignment of gender and it's subsequent enforcement are completely non-concentual. Another quote, this one by Pat Califia from his book "Sex Changes: The Politics of Transgenderism" speaks to this:


"...it's not supposed to be hard work to be accepted as a man or a woman; it's supposed to be a natural and effortless process. Few of us are even aware of the pervasive rewards and punishments that shape our gender identities - unless that process was not successful. I suspect much of the hatred and fear of transsexuals is based on the discomfort that others experience when forced to recall the pain of involuntary gender conditioning. It is easier to believe we never had a choice about something so fundamental than to process and accept the fact that the choice was taken away from us and ruthlessly suppressed."

The significance of crossdressers and other gender variant individuals in society is that we are no longer willing to have out identities assigned to us. We reject, sometimes on a wholesale basis, the notion that we should be the men and women we were told we are. Instead, we have opted to embrace and accept who are really are, whoever that may be. As a result, we are becomming more visible. That means that we can no longer be ignored or discounted as a bunch of weirdos. More and more, gender variant people are choosing to be visible, thus bringing us more into the mainstream of society. As we move from the background to the forefront, society will have to yield to the fact that gender, as it is defined today, is a wholely inadequate construct and in need of revision.

As always, just my half-nibble's worth. Thanks for listening - er - reading. :)

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Jenny Warren]

[QUOTE=JoAnnDallas]Jenny Warren... You didn't finish the post. I also said that a friend of mine WAS tied to a fence and beaten, because he admitted to his BUDS that he was GAY.[QUOTE]

I DID finish the post, but that wasn't really relevant to my reply, the point of which was that each place and community is different.

[QUOTE=JoAnnDallas]That is the difference between those that grew up in small close knit towns, like I did, and those that grew up in more metropolitan towns. [QUOTE]

This is a fair point. I was born and raised on an island, 9 miles by 5 miles. Not exactly a heaving metropolis by any standards. The incident I related in my post happened in that environment.

[QUOTE=JoAnnDallas]When you grow up in a small close knit town, something like being GAY, a different race or TG/TS/CD is like going to the Friday night football game and cheering for the rival team. People in these towns have nothing but football and GOSSIP. Anything that is NOT NORMAL in their eyes is PERVERTED. Most of these towns are VERY RELIGIOUS. which adds fuel to the fire. Plus everyone knows everyone else, so there is hardly no secrets. [QUOTE]

Only if the population is small minded, ignorant and bigoted.

[QUOTE=JoAnnDallas]It's just that I like many of us over 50, that grew up in those small towns, can not shake the enviroment that we grew up in.[QUOTE]

I think my home environment would meet that criteria. When I left home to live in England I settled in a village with a population of just over 1000. I have lived in small villages most of my life, and the place I live in now is no exception. ALL of my neighbours have seen me coming and going as Jenny as much as they have seen me in 'male mode'

I've lived here six months and people I hardly know stop me and ask me how I'm settling in. No-one is treating me as a pervert, weirdo or freak

[QUOTE=JoAnnDallas]As another also said, as we get older the harder it is for us to fess up to our wifes, cause we have gone this long and do to our and thiers health and monetary status, it may well be TOO LATE, wiether we are happy with our situration or not.[QUOTE]

This only reflects a reluctance to be completely honest with someone you claim to love and respect. I have been with my SO for over 12 years, and I told her about Jenny (and showed her photographs) before we even got into a relationship.

Previous to that I was married for 13 yrs to someone who knew about my crossdressing long before we got serious in our relationship.

Jenny

[Anita Mae GG]

I think Tammy has a good thread, except IMHO, I think she might have open a can of worms that she didn't really want to open.

No I think that I expressed my opinion and made people think about their own situations. There is no "can of worms" to open. Maybe I opened a few eyes and those people didn't like what they saw in themselves or their relationships.

Bottom line for me is this. Everyone has to do what they feel is right. Whether you grew up in a small town or a city doesn't affect everyone the same no matter where you live. Every ONE person is different regardless of occupation, years married, where you live. and where you grew up. We are ALL different.......but at the end of the day if you are not being honest with someone you are in fact LYING to them...that has no boundries of where you live, work etc. If you can accept that you are deceiving your wife for whatever reasons you try to rationalize it, then so be it......if you can live with yourself and feel good about yourself at the end of the day and you are happy, then live, love and be happy........


For me, I am VERY happy I have an honest spouse who loves and trusts me enough to tell me everything. He has more courage then anyone I have ever met! I am glad I have him :)

[Alexandria]

Very good thread and many great points raised. Although I don't have an SO at the moment, I want to draw the point that it's best to be forward early on, especially with friends!

Myself, I was raised in a highly conservative and religious home. I've loved women's clothing for years, but without the finances nor the privacy to do this on my own. It didn't help that my parents considered crossdressers and transvestites "homosexual freaks". I used my feminine energy by drawing figures and clothes from fashion catalogues...I tried my best to keep them all hidden from my parents.

Last year one of my best GG friend's saw my drawings and loved them, she believed I was not only great artistically, but had an excellent fashion sense. I told her about the catalogues and how I used them for reference. She thought it was cute...and eventually over time she played around with the concept of putting makeup on me.

Still in the "religious conservative" mindframe. I was a bit afraid of what others would think. I told her it was a weird idea and I wouldn't be up for doing it. Weeks passed and I grew more and more interested in the idea. So one day I asked her "You know a few weeks ago you asked me about putting on makeup? I think I want to do it."

Her eyes widened with excitement and we went shopping the next day for clothes, helping me select clothes so I might find out my size, being with a friend was comforting as there was no way I'd go through a women's department (let alone a dressing room) alone. That weekend she invited me and another friend (who was very enthusiatic about the idea) to a drag show. I dressed entirely en femme and talked to other CDers there, they all thought I was adorable!

I started opening up more and talking to more friends about it. I did get a few "Ewws!" but overwhelmingly most of the people I knew (females mostly) were in support of it. They would send me links to clothing sites, give fashion advice, and we'd go out shopping together at several occasions. I went to many more drag shows and other crossdressing events. Even my friends from work found out and didn't care at all :).

I guess the moral of the story is to be open very early on. Don't hide and be afraid of what others think. If you loose a friend or girlfriend over the matter. It's not as bad as being in the closet keeping it hidden from your SO for years...only to be heartbroken one day when they find out and that they don't support it...or that they are hurt because you've been hiding something from them that's not that serious at all. Communication is a key element in any relationship.

[Annaliese]

A recent thread inspired my thread. First let me say that I am in no way putting anyone down or anything. Just my thoughts here......please don't take offense.

I have read recently and not so recently in here about some of you girls having issues with yourselves and your wives in relation to crossdressing. Now I know not everyone has an accepting wife. That is obvious but what I don't understand is WHY you haven't told her (if you haven't already).

For those with unccepting wives:

You have to take agood hard look at your relationships. If she knows and has tried to accept but it has been YEARS and she is not willing at this point, then you have to re-evaluate your relationship. If she hasn't changed by now she probably isn't going to.


For those who haven't told their wives:

You need to do that NOW. If you wait it'll only be worse. The realistic reaction is going to be hurt and anger and confusion. But the longer you wait the more magnified these reactions will be. They will feel even more betrayed etc. Every day that goes by that you don't tell her is another day you have deceived her. Whether it be out of fear, or love for her...you need to not deceive her anymore. If you have been together a few years or more, she is going to be hurt no matter what, no basically you have nothing to lose. The sooner you tell her the more time you have to help her understand. Worst case, she leaves...but if I can try and put a positive spin on that.....that is a chance for you to find yourself and someone who loves you for ALL of you!

Bottom line is this....if she is not willing to learn about crossdressing and at least TRY and accept it, then she probably won't anytime in the future. In the meantime you are stifling your true self and hurting yourself by shutting a part of you down. That is not fair to anyone.

No one should feel that they cannot be their true selves. Or feel that they have to hide from the one person they love most. Put your whole self out there and see what happens. If things with your wives were meant to be then they will be. If not then that is your chance for freedom and acceptance from someone else. Not all wives are unaccepting...you can find someone who loves ALL of you. It is possible.

Now I am in no way telling you all to leave your wives and children. I am telling you that YOU are responsible for your OWN happiness and if you can't be true self without fear...then that makes for a miserable person. You all need to talk to your wives and figure out if your relationships are going to change for the better or if you are better off moving on.

There seems to be a lot of unhappy girls in here that have to hide themselves in their own homes......is it worth it to live your life as someone you are not ...........????

Good luck and God Bless!!! :happy:

Tammy you are right, It is freedom when you don't have to hide part of your self or be some one you are not. It give you freedoms in other thing also. Yesterday I had a doctors appointment I have one pair af boy underware for, time like this. This time I wore a pink thong and when he doctor check my lower back he had to have seen my thong. I no longer feared going to the doctor. I shave my legs and arms year round and my finger nails are keep long, I have had other comment on my shave legs, arms or long nails. This is the first time I have let some one see my panties beside my wife I was not exposing my self this was a Doctor visit. I am choseing not to live in fear any more. I am going to be 53 in April my health is not good I have had two back surgery and one neck surgery and am looking at another back surgery. I have found that there are much worse things to be afraid of. Being your self is not one of them. One has to get to the point that they can be them self and I am not just talking about cd-ing I know men that go hunting just because it is expected of them and this is just one example. It has taken me almost 53 year to get to this point life experence has help me a long the way. I know that if I had not had these experence that I would have never had talk to my wife and would be still living in fear. My wife ask me why I did not tell her, I told her fear and afraid of her anger and that she would leave, we had a long talk and over the years she has gotten better there is still times of anger. One thing she said to me was you thought that little of me. I then understood how much I have hirt her by keeping it from her.

Anna

[Penny]

THIS IS ME

As an older CD, I can understand why some older CD's are still in the closet.
Crossdressing was taboo as a young man. Today, it is much different. People may still talk about you, but the likelyhood of being beaten to death is rather remote. At certain times throughtout my life, oportunities have presented themself for me to come out. I was able to withstand the need to reveal myself. When my first child was born, I could not deal with the fact that I was who I was and thus told my 1st wife. We went to counciling and she pretty much
learned that this is something not cureable because it is not a dease but rather,a birth flaw. It took 6 years for this to happen. Ultimately, our marriage ended in divorce but not because of this although it might have had something to do with it. When I remarried, it took me 8 years to tell my second wife. Early on our marriage we were looking something on TV dealing with TV's and her comment was " if I was like that she didn't think she could live with it. The second time, I showed her when I told her. In the second instance my prelude to my confession was that this was a very personal thing and trusted her competely. You see, the problem with not telling our
spouse is not only do we not get out of the closet world but we never let
our wife into our world. How tragic that we allow noone into our world because we grew up with the notion that being a TV ment you were some kind of freek and even more tragic, we bought it. If we can't tell the one we love, then we can trust nobody. My wife is neither encouraging nor
discouraging about my crossdressing. She is totally accepting and I can dress however I want and at times when she needs something from the store,
she will send Penny. We have been out in public togather but she is not entirely comfortable with that. She has however, come to appreciate Penny and all she brings into our marriage. For example, when she needs to look exta special at work she will ask me "how do look?". She knows I won't be judgemental but will offer suggestions of adhancement "you know those earrings, the ones with the pink in the middle, they would look great with
your outfit". She ask's for and gets a take on things from a woman's perspective. Thank you Tammy for surfacing the problem.
For you gentalmen: Crossdressing is neither freeky, immoral, abnormal or
unhealty. It is, infact, ia demonstrative way for us to express part of
our total self. If the world only knew our inner structure, it would be in fact
envious as opposed to critical. We are uniquely gifted with the ability to
relate to both genders through our thinking and emotions. As I said, crossdressing is not unhealthy, however living a lie is. Not telling our spouse
is living a lie (who we are who we are as opposed to having people think less of us)is unhealthy. So I am making this plea, pleasplease===please>>>> tell yourwife, confirm her suspisions, eliminate any doubts. Everyone needs to belong.Everyone dserves to be happy. For most of you older Cd's as the urge to crossdress grows stronger perhaps time is running out and a lot might have been missed, now is the pefect time to tell your wife. Listen, you've protectedeveryone, yourself, your job , your marital journey. Allow yourself to share your gift with your loved ones and stop treating it as a curse. If you can't tell your spouse or SO, then consider printing this and presenting it . I spent 12 years total in the closet and 20 years out. I know how you feel and I would love for you to feel how I now feel.

WE chose our partner good and bad
joy and pain is what we've had
sometimes it's pushed us to the edge
all because we made a solemn pledge

There is no rhyme to life at all
Sometimes we'r up, sometimes we fall
But sharing life with one's we love
This is deamed from God above

[Megan G]

Tammy Marie GG,

After reading your first post I can honestly say that you have descibed me perfectly. Hiding "Trisha" from my wife of 8 months is tearing me up inside but the only thing that stops me from telling her is the fear of losing her.

I have wanted to tell her for a while now but am trying to come up with a comment to "spark" a conversation on CD'ing to guage her responce on it and to see if she would be accepting or not.

What I am thinking of doing is she is pregnant with our first child and is always wearing my cloths (because they fit a little looser, we are the same size) the next time she wears some of my sweats I was thinking of saying that soon my clothes are going to be wore out and I will soon be wearing her skirts and dresses as I will have nothing of my own to wear.....

Give me your opinion on how to bring this up PLEASE....

Trisha

[carol ann]

Whilst I understand where Tami Marie is coming from, I believe her assessment is too black and white. There are a thousand and one matters to be taken into consideration before you can make judgements on wheter one should be more open either to a wife or to the community at large.

I will just mention (or remention) a few.

The first is that (certainly for us more mature people) at a younger age there was always a feeling of guilt that accompanied our dressing - the feeling that what we were doing was wrong or un-natural. Consequently it was something we hid or supressed - sometimes for years as the nature of lives militated against dressing. Military service in my case, physical male sports, then career chasing, girl friends, young marriage followed by small children.

All of these gave neither the time nor opportunity (or the finance) to allow freedom of the feelings to express themselves. One then reaches a stage in life when yourealise that although you now want to give way to the urge, to come out would start to hurt people and (if generally known) would affect relationships with friends and at work and would in a prejudiced world affect careers.

How many times already have I read on this forum how marriages broke up because a wife could not come to terms with a partners crossdressing and the marriage broke up. Whilst one may say that there must have been other problems there as well, the crossdressing would be a huge thing for a wife to assimilate.

My view is that each individual must consider what is the most important matters in their lives and act accordingly. No one rule for every case!!!

[JoAnnDallas]

People have to remember that each of us are different and have different circumstances. Case in point. Emily Ann Brown. She was in the closet to her wife and was very happy that way. Now wife knows about her and Emily is now very unhappy, sad, disgruntled, and moody. Wife did not even want to learn or hear anything about us and MADE EM PURGE everything, including everything on her computer.

There have been others too. Many you don't hear about because they are NO LONGER ON THIS FORUM. ALso I have another CD friend that told her wife and again it very very negitive. She is now deep in closet at home but lets her fem self out ONLY on business trips.

We all know that we can not quit, so what do sisters like EM do when it raises it's head again.

It's NOT all roses out there.

[BethGG]

Tammy Marie GG,

After reading your first post I can honestly say that you have descibed me perfectly. Hiding "Trisha" from my wife of 8 months is tearing me up inside but the only thing that stops me from telling her is the fear of losing her.

I have wanted to tell her for a while now but am trying to come up with a comment to "spark" a conversation on CD'ing to guage her responce on it and to see if she would be accepting or not.

What I am thinking of doing is she is pregnant with our first child and is always wearing my cloths (because they fit a little looser, we are the same size) the next time she wears some of my sweats I was thinking of saying that soon my clothes are going to be wore out and I will soon be wearing her skirts and dresses as I will have nothing of my own to wear.....

Give me your opinion on how to bring this up PLEASE....

Trisha
I think being more straightforward is best, sitting her down and having a talk with him. If you just make a casual comment like that, she still will have no clue and not connect the two. Although others have said telling a wife while she is pregnent is a bad time to tell her. Maybe after the child is born? I think you should really try to be gentle with the subject, let her know there are lots of other people who are crossdressers too, and that if she wants there is lots of information online and in books so that she can understand it better.

[Bliss GG]

Tammy Marie GG,

After reading your first post I can honestly say that you have descibed me perfectly. Hiding "Trisha" from my wife of 8 months is tearing me up inside but the only thing that stops me from telling her is the fear of losing her.

I have wanted to tell her for a while now but am trying to come up with a comment to "spark" a conversation on CD'ing to guage her responce on it and to see if she would be accepting or not.

What I am thinking of doing is she is pregnant with our first child and is always wearing my cloths (because they fit a little looser, we are the same size) the next time she wears some of my sweats I was thinking of saying that soon my clothes are going to be wore out and I will soon be wearing her skirts and dresses as I will have nothing of my own to wear.....

Give me your opinion on how to bring this up PLEASE....

Trisha

Trisha,
I agree with BethGG that it is much better to be clear and direct. I suspect that you want to be indirect at first to ease the shock, and I do think that easing into the subject is a good idea, but you can still bring the subject up without being vague. After all, if she doesn't understand you, or misinterprets what you are talking about, she may still be shocked when you reveal that you crossdress.

You probably know your wife well enough to know if she would be accepting of crossdressing in general, even if she's not ready to accept it of you. How does she treat other people who are "different" by society's standards? Does she make comments/jokes about gays and lesbians? Does she look down on people who dress differently, like goths and punks? I suspect that you chose her to be your mate because she doesn't treat people badly, or speak of them harshly, just because they are "different" from the norm.

My suggestion is that you do bring it up more more casually at first, but still be direct. You could find a way to introduce the topic by maybe referencing an article or TV program about crossdressing. Ask her what she thinks of crossdressing, or of men who crossdress. Her response will probably indicate how you should proceed. At least you will have time to think about her response before it gets personal.

As to whether to wait until after the baby is born, I have no advice, except to say that hormones affect emotions in wacky ways. I've never been pregnant, but I know that I will react differently to the same information at differnt times in my hormonal cycle.

However you do it, it is better to tell than to keep the secret. You shouldn't have to continue being torn up inside. Good wishes and good luck.