Is Crossdressing an Insult to Women?

[Krisi]

I'm reading threads here and I see things like "It's hard being a woman" or "I enjoy being a girl". Talk about heels, girdles, makeup and such.

It seems to me that women are far more than makeup and heels, bras, girdles and such. We can dress as women, we can buy wigs, breast forms and padded panties. We can buy false fingernails, paint our toenails, etc. but that doesn't make us women. No matter what we do, we are still men dressed as women. As I have posted many times, strapping on a pair of boobs does not make one a woman.

I'm not suggesting that anyone stop crossdressing, but I am suggesting that people think about they are doing and what they are thinking and posting.

Being woman is much more than wearing wigs, breast forms and heels. Think about the real women in your life. Your mother, sisters, wife or girlfriend. Don't insult them.

Rant over, carry on.

[Dana44]

Well said Krisy, however, some of us do not strap forms on or pads or wigs, We just are and still we know, but it is nice to be both and I appreciate women more than me. However, that has gotten me into a lot of trouble. But we don't hold a candle to our women.

[NancySue]

Excellent 'rant'. I totally agree. I'm blessed with a very supportive wife and we've talked about exactly what you are also addressing. The difference is we 'need' to do what we do. They don't. She feels it's an invasion of her inherent genetic female persona, of which protection from 'invasion' is part of their life. This 'invasion ' could be viewed as an insult. Females are very private about many aspects of their lives of which their clothes, makeup, etc. is a large part. A 'no no' example is: most females, even the supportive ones resent a husband or SO wearing their clothes, especially their unmentionables. I have all my own things including things she's given me. It's called 'respect'. Anything less could be viewed as an insult.

[ellbee]

Get what you're saying & agree, but I suppose it also needs to be taken within context? :strugglin


Anyway, maybe a better way to put it is, "It's hard being a CD'er" or "I enjoy being a CD'er".


Oh, and BTW, if done properly, CD'ing could also be viewed as some sort of respect, too. Paying homage, if you will. :worship::dom:

[Alice Torn]

Some do think it is, and lump it with drag queens, insulting, condescending. I am sure my sister knew i wore her things, and ruined some, and to this day, decades later, i sense some hostility toward me, for that.

[Lana Mae]

Very good rant! I want to see my feminine side but I will never be a woman. I have the utmost respect for women and what they have to go through. For me, it is emulation not disrespect. Well said, Krisi! Hugs Lana Mae

[Dana44]

Nancy, you are so right. I have never worn any of my girls things in my life. I have always bought my own clothes.

[AlyssaJ]

Glad I'm not the only one that was feeling this way after reading some of those threads. After getting kind of blasted by someone who felt they new my wife's mind better than me in one of those discussions, I got really turned off to participation in this forum. As a gender-fluid person, I can tell you that when I'm feeling feminine, it's a lot more than just an urge to wear female clothing or prance around trying to act like a woman. There is a very real and very deep connection to a female identity that can take over completely at times. Even then, even when I feel most female and am presenting as female, I still don't claim to be a woman. I'm not a man either, I just am me.

I had to kind of laugh at some of those posts and I think your message here Krisi is spot on.

[Mayo]

In many cases, it seems like CDs have a sincere desire to express 'femininity', which is defined by our culture in specific ways, many of which are insulting and demeaning to women. I feel that occasionally CDs express (and even emphasize) the stereotype, rather than a more nuanced or appreciative understanding of what femininity is, and that's where it becomes problematic.

[Kendra Sue]

I have the utmost respect for women. I realize that dressing like a woman does not make me one. I am fufilling an emotional need. Women should always be admired and treated well.

[Lily Catherine]

I'd like to suppose that the threads would be better phrased as "It's hard looking like a woman" or something to that effect. Although it should just stop there: all that is discussed seems to be the image of a woman. I reckon this emphasis comes from shallowly adopting over(t)ly and stereotypically feminine mannerisms out of deliberate emphasis. Granted a good part of the crossdressing experience of an MtF CD is very likely to be the clothing, but that is the surface at best and warrants such acknowledgement.

Unless an MtF CD happened to be raised and socialised female, I doubt it's accurate to say that they would know What It Feels Like For A Girl - much as they might want to. Clothes here may well make the image of a woman. Ditto for silicone boobs and hips. But do they make the woman? No way in hell.

[Jodi]

I have been told by gg's that it's an insult when cd's go out in public and don't know how to act--

Such as-being loud and boisterous in a restaurant, acting like macho guys while dressed
dining with little or no table manners, very common
dressing like a hooker, and I've seen many of these

In general, not giving women a very good image.

jodi

[NicoleScott]

I crossdress because I am compelled by some mysterious unknown internal drive to fo so. Further, I'm driven to dress over-the-top. It's not intended to insult women (nobody crossdresses for that reason). It's about me, my clothes, my wigs, my shoes, makeup, jewellery.....and my mirror. I can't take responsibility for others' choice to be offended.
For some crossdressers, "feeling girly" and the like is their fulfillment of a fantasy. This is a give and get support site for all kinds of crossdressers. Blatant intentional insults of women (or anybody) shouldn't be tolerated, but honest expressions of a crossdresser's fantasies shouldn't be stifled in fear of the lowest threshold of insultees. I crossdress and a woman is insulted? Get over it.

[PeggyNell]

I believe I am MORE respectful of women because I am a Crossdresser. I am respectfully of the time it takes women to get "ready"!😊
More importantly keeping in mind that women have a lot more things "going on" in general than us men.
I am glad I have a really super female friend. She has helped me soooo much in my journey. We had a good laugh and I told her how much i respected her, when we helped each other tighten up our corsets one evening. At that moment I felt a deeper connection with her, and what women go trough to look sexy and feminine for us men.
I am a man, I will never known what it is like being a woman outside of the material things. But as a man, women appreciate me more. Mainly because I am more respectful to them than most typical males.

[Kate Simmons]

I personally think it would depend on the particular woman affected. Some are insulted, some are flattered, some don't give two flying walnuts. I don't feel I am a woman by any stretch. What others may think when they see me is up to them.:)

[Alice_2014_B]

I can see how some women could be offended, but I believe more are either flattered, don't care at all, or might be jealous. And I mean "jealous in a good way, not like a crossdresser tries to make women jealous. I mean it in a light way, like, "You look hot in those heels, wish I was able to walk in them."

I dress how I want to, knowing it doesn't make me a woman; at the same time I cannot help if women were to get offended.

:)

[Rachael Leigh]

I don't believe it to be an insult at all I've always felt that emulating a women is really more of a complement to their bueaty, knowing I can never be as beautiful as one I enjoy the opportunity be myself but never do I consider it an insult
I fully respect women and who they are in our society

[Teresa]

Krisi,
I can only say that every GG I've talked to and shown pictures to and those who have seen me dressed have never taken it as an insult .

They may not understand why we do it but they don't see it as being disrespectful . It may be the way I come over to them, but they are very honest in their opinions and often enjoy talking about the clothes and other aspects of the things we share with them.

We should not stop CDing because of those feelings women are insulted far more by men who don't CD, more of them are abused and mistreated by so called normal men than members of the TG community.

My wife may not approve but she has never accused me of insulting her, my daughter is so supportive because she understands my needs but she certainly wouldn't if she felt insulted.

Sometimes I feel you carry a load of guilt with your dressing, you don't appear to be comfortable with it, I think you have your own problem to sort out with the need to dress.

[ReineD]

In many cases, it seems like CDs have a sincere desire to express 'femininity', which is defined by our culture in specific ways, many of which are insulting and demeaning to women.

I’m not insulted by the ways that members here choose to express femininity.

But, let’s get a bit more specific so we can have an understanding of what we’re talking about. I think that most CDers do choose to portray aspects of women they themselves admire, if they have the body for it. Right? No one would choose to wear something they feel looks unattractive on women. Popular are cute/coordinating outfits, or dresses or skirts that show off legs, or tops that show more shoulder or chest than men’s clothes whith some emphasizing cleavage, or pants/jeans that emphasize butt and thighs, using wigs with long hair and using other embellishments like jewelry, polished nails, fashionable shoes & hose, or choosing to wear pretty vs. basic-functional underthings.

As with everything, there are a number of ways to accomplish all of this depending on budget and the evolution of the CDer’s style, from the less refined (ultra short skirts and boobs that are way too big) to the more refined (designer clothing, more expensive forms, more natural looking wigs).

But, in just about all cases, from the pictures I’ve seen, the woman portrayed seems to be an object of admiration, which makes sense to me. I don’t know how many CDers would want to wear the things that GGs wear at the mall, whom CDers believe aren’t dressed well at all.

And so in my eyes, this isn’t insulting, it’s just rather old fashioned. It’s true there are GGs who also place in evidence their various physical assets, but the number has decreased considerably since the 1950s, if we simply look at the average GG we see walking on the street. We could discuss the many social forces that have contributed to the dressing-down of America in a separate thread, although IMO an important change is the way that women see their roles in society compared to the 1950s. We no longer need to depend on men for our financial survival and so there is less focus, with the advent of feminism, to dress in our day-to-day lives in ways that place our feminine assets in evidence. But CDers are still physically wired to find certain things about women attractive, and so they choose to wear these things things when they dress.



I'm reading threads here and I see things like "It's hard being a woman" or "I enjoy being a girl". Talk about heels, girdles, makeup and such.

I agree that what we all choose to wear or how we choose to adorn ourselves is only a small part of who we are. This is true for both men and women. We are primarily wives, husbands, parents, contributing members of society, etc. So I don’t know why there is such a focus on presentation in this forum, and why so many people seem to think that dressing like a woman equates to being a woman … maybe it’s because most of the members here are birth males and the only real difference between men and women (other than their bodies) is the way they attire themselves. There is generally not much difference between men and women in terms of education, job choices, social roles, the ability to experience the full breadth of human emotion, etc. The major difference between us are our bodies and reproductive functions, but most members here do not want to transition, and so the only thing left is presentation?


I can see how some women could be offended, but I believe more are either flattered, don't care at all, or might be jealous.

The only time I've ever seen a GG say she was jealous of her husband (or husbands who say their wives are jealous of them), was when there was a difference in body mass index. I hope you can understand that many GGs who are overweight have negative body images, although thankfully this is beginning to change. But if you compare apples to apples, you'll seldom see a GG who likes her body, say that she is jealous of her husband when he is dressed. If she is jealous, it is at the attention she perceives her husband pays to the feminine persona, which the wife feels detracts from their relationship. One member in a current thread wrote that when GGs see a CDer out in public, they make a mental calculation and decide that CDers risk attracting these GGs' potential boyfriends to themselves, and so they are jealous. But, this is wishful thinking IMO.

[Sandra]

I'm not insulted by anyone crossdressing :) What does insult me is when some people say they look better than women, especially when they are talking about their wife/gf :Angry3:

[josrphine]

Krisi , I don't know about you, but you must feel you are insulting women. Can the question be made that the women that dress in mens cloths are insulting men. I have spoken at collages in different class's here in Florida out of 45 women almost all had mens boots on tank tops no make up no bra's heels all of the things that you mention. The line between men an women is what they pack. Cloths do not insult any one. What the person who wear the cloths, to make a point dose. Now a days every one wants to be there own person. We who wear women cloth have out own reasons. Josephine

[DIANEF]

Never considered myself anything other than a guy who wears womens clothes, and I have immense respect and admiration for women. I dont enjoy 'being' a girl but I do enjoy looking like one. What I do hate is seeing some CDers who look more like a parody of a woman than anything else (and they do exist). Emulation, not disrespect.

[ReineD]

Can the question be made that the women that dress in mens cloths are insulting men. I have spoken at collages in different class's here in Florida out of 45 women almost all had mens boots on tank tops no make up no bra's heels all of the things that you mention.

Josrphine, were you invited to speak to members of the LGBTQ community? It makes sense the audience would include many birth-females who blur their gender, some of whom might actually be transitioning and indeed wearing men's clothes. But, if you were speaking to the general public, for example a sociology class in gender studies, then I'm afraid that what you may have perceived as men's clothes, were actually items these GGs bought in women's stores. Also, fewer women are wearing makeup nowadays or at least this is true on our local campus, and certainly students don't go to college wearing heels anymore. Also, not wearing a bra is no longer seen as improper unless the GG really needs one for support .... but these fashion choices do not mean the GGs are attempting to present as men.

If we are to compare apples to apples though (FtMs vs MtFs), men's fashions don't tend to sexualize men's bodies like some women's fashions sexualize women's bodies (the body-hugging clothes, short skirts, low-cut blouses, stilleto heels, etc). And so FtM's choices are pretty much limited to presenting as regular guys. MtFs, however do have choices; they can present like regular GGs and not wear much makeup, jeans and casual tops, and sneakers, or they can choose to place the focus on a woman's physical assets, which some people might construe as overly sexualizing women.

[Tracii G]

I'm not insulted by anyone crossdressing :) What does insult me is when some people say they look better than women, especially when they are talking about their wife/gf :Angry3:

This exactly Sandra.
I'm a guy sadly I know it and so wish it wasn't that way.

[Helen_Highwater]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Yes saying things like, "It's hard being a woman" when patently we're not could at face value be possibly viewed as demeaning. However it could just as easily be viewed as an acknowledgement of our understanding of just some of the trials and tribulations the females go through. We literally walk in their shoes and hence have an understanding of just what that takes. How many male SO's truly know what it's taken when the say to their female partners, "You look nice tonight". Have no understanding when they ask, "Aren't you ready yet, we'll be late".

I fully acknowledge that if a CD'er goes over the top in their behavior/dress then that's more caricaturing females and not something I find as a minimum to be in good taste, at the maximum showing any respect to the opposite sex. I thankfully see little evidence that those here exhibit such behaviors.

[audreyinalbany]

I've always been acutely aware of the dichotomy of being a crossdresser. One the one hand, it is the ultimate tribute to women...saying, in effect, I admire you...I want to be like you, to emulate you,to closely identify with you. One the other hand, it is, somehow making a mockery of womanhood...i like to 'get pretty', but I don't have to put up with that annoying menstruation...I'll never have to go through childbirth...I can take these boobs off when they start to get sweaty or annoying...I can pretend to be like you, and then whenever I choose, go back to my male privilege & let you take care of the kids, be underpaid for the same work, have to tolerate sexism, or what have you. it's a conundrum.

[ellbee]

I fully acknowledge that if a CD'er goes over the top in their behavior/dress then that's more caricaturing females and not something I find as a minimum to be in good taste, at the maximum showing any respect to the opposite sex.

I give some drag queens a pass on that one -- they can be a total riot! :thumbsup:

[ReineD]

Helen, judging by the posts I read, a great many of the members who say "it's hard being a woman", don't understand that we don't think it's difficult at all. It's true there are some occasions when we choose to wear elaborate makeup and clothes that require a bit more effort than the way we present in our day-to-day lives, but again in places where people go in their day-to-day lives (casual restaurants, malls, grocery stores, etc), you'll see that most women don't look as if they've spent hours grooming. This is not meant to be disparaging, because I count myself among those women. When my SO and I decide to go out for dinner, I usually just go as I am, like my SO, (no makeup and wearing the clothes I've worn all day), or I might take 5 minutes to change my top, brush my hair, and put on a bit of foundation. But, I hardly call this difficult or time consuming.

And if a woman works in an environment that calls for dresses and hose, plus makeup, when I did this I had my morning routine down pat, which didn't take much longer than a guy who showers and shaves. Women who don't want to fiddle with the time it takes to blow dry long hair choose shorter, easier styles. And putting on a dress and hose doesn't take more time than a pair of jeans and a top. So at most, we're talking what ... 10-15 minutes (give or take) difference between getting dressed for work and for a Saturday morning? This is not difficult.

Also, I question the stereotype of the women who are habitually late because they've spent time grooming themselves (I refer to your "Aren't you ready yet, we'll be late"). I know how long it takes me to wash and dry my hair and put on a bit more makeup than usual should I so choose, and I make sure to have finished in a timely fashion. I'm guessing that most women do the same.

However, I do appreciate it when my SO tells me I look nice. I especially appreciate being told when I'm in my more natural state (no makeup with the clothes I wear every day). :)



I'm not insulted by anyone crossdressing :) What does insult me is when some people say they look better than women, especially when they are talking about their wife/gf :Angry3:

Yes!!

This and also the stereotypes they keep putting us into.

[Judy-Somthing]

And don't forget cooking, laundry, and cleaning!

Just kidding of course.

[Tracy Irving]

In today's society, there is virtually no clothing off limits to the opposite sex. I guarantee no woman is thinking she is insulting men when she wear pants or a man's dress shirt.

[Georgina]

Krisi thank you for your rant. If you had not done so I think I would have done something similar. I have always been annoyed by statements like, "I know how a woman feels" and "when I finished dressing I became the girl I should have been" plus many others. I wondered how this was possible as, when I dressed, I felt a difference, but I was still me and male. I don't consider crossdressing to be an insult to women as I consider many of the clothing of, and behaviour of, a percentage of women to be a greater insult. In my mind I have the same right to skirts and dresses as women, and as they have to male clothes. I consider a women to be totally feminine when she is totally naked, without clothes, makeup and other products. The same for a man at his most masculine. Anything after this is purely artificial and should be available to all, both carrying the same respect.

[Majella St Gerard]

Any woman that feels insulted or threatened by my crossdressing must have very low self-esteem and that is not my problem. I dress for myself sometimes plain, sometimes classy, sometimes sexy , I make no apologies. I love and respect women, especially strong women. I take no offense when women wear masculine clothes, if they can wear whatever they want for whatever reason why can't men. Sorry for the rant but there seems to be a double standard.

[ellbee]

Tracy,

There's a good segment of the population who feel it's okay for a GG to "trade up" to some men's clothing, as that could be viewed as elevating themselves up the societal ladder... Yet on the other hand, a male would be viewed as "trading down" when wearing women's clothing, as that would be considered reducing his status -- which is why it can be frowned upon.

Not saying it's right, but I've heard this before, and on some level it can make "sense" to some, unfortunately.

[Lorileah]

Semantics. When you say either I say either. I think many here don't "think" before they say things. "I feel like woman" really translates more into "I feel like I would like to believe a woman who was dressed as I am would feel...sexy, pretty" I don't believe most people here intentionally insult women. Today seems to be me pointing out our own biases day for me. "Men" are taught a concept of what women should be and the add their own skewed view to that. Many here "emulate" the look they find most attractive. It isn't meant to cause competition or anger or jealousy. It is meant to make us feel good about ourselves. I find many "drag" performers to be insulting to not only women but to people's respect in general. We have outgrown caricatures in most other areas, especially minorities, but gender seems to still be a HUGE target. And, if I am alerted to the fact that I have in some way insulted who a person is (race, creed, color, religion, gender, sexuality) I try very hard to not do it again. But, as long as people find humor in other people's lives, it will continue

[Tina_gm]

Some of it may be of women who just do not have a good attitude of CDers. But, I would be willing to bet a lot of those who feel insulted feel this way due to the attitudes and certain comments made by some CDers. The I am just like a woman because of how well they can do their make up, walk in heels, paint their nails etc etc...

Anyone can do those things with practice. WE who CD do practice, but there is so much more to being a woman than the cover. It's what is inside. What it is like growing up with the body issues of being too tall, to heavy to whatever, or not enough. Women are judged on their appearance, a lot of which they have little control over. They are judged much more harshly as compared to men. The workplace.... harder to get promotions, and when they do, an authoritative woman will be thought of as a mean bitch, whereas the man is well, authoritative, in command etc etc. Or they get made to feel they are inadequate by simple virtue of their gender.

How about what it is like to be judged as a mother. Men are not judged as much for their fathering skills as women are of their being a mother. Balancing hormonal issues during the monthly. Or when menopause comes during middle age. We CDers simply do not know what any of that is like, because we simply cannot.

Lastly, how far too many CDers dress and act in such provocative ways, like lap dancers and such. Nothing very flattering to GG's about that.

[HollyGreene]

I never think of myself as a woman, and I never refer to the CDs on here as "girls" or "ladies".
I am a man. If I took hormones and had surgery, I'd still be a man, albeit one that physically resembles a woman. Nothing can make my XY chromosomes into XX chromosomes.

I dress like a woman and I like to feel feminine. I envy women their bodies. For as long as I can remember, I wished I'd been born female.
I see that as a compliment to women - not as an insult.

[AllieSF]

I agree with you Lori about what they mean when they use those often written phrases, and I do not believe that they have any intent to hurt anyone. What you translated in your intro is a mouthful and just saying "I feel like a woman" is close enough and one hell of a lot simpler to say. The majority here get that full intent and do not get our pink, or red or whatever color panties in a bunch about it. Sensitive ears should try to de-sensitize them if at all possible.

PS: Gendermutt,

"Lastly, how far too many CDers dress and act in such provocative ways, like lap dancers and such. Nothing very flattering to GG's about that."
The same could be said of GG's dressing in such provocative ways, lap dancers and such! It is not how one dresses, but rather how one acts with and to others.

[Barbara Jo]

Two things....

1) A male dressing as a female is no different than than a female dressing as a male...complete with a male style haircut.
Being a male is also more than just clothes and a haircut.

2) The old adage says that....."imitation is the most sincerest form of flattery". :)


BTW drag queens are no part of issues as they strive to be caricatures of females often to the extreme.

[Stephanie47]

I read this thread early this morning and started to comment twice. Then I deleted because I wanted to see where this was all going. I believe Krisi had two thoughts going; the clothes and women in general.

Ah, the clothes. I don't think my cross dressing is insulting to any of the women in my family, although I think if they knew a few would keel over in either disgust or laughter. I dress a la June Cleaver, which is probably insulting to many women because it may confer some sort of home body servitude to a man. Frankly, I enjoy donning a dress, hosiery and heels and undergarments. I am under no false pretense that I look better than any woman. I'm still as man in a dress. On the other hand there are many on this forum who dress very casual and feel comfortable in women's jeans and a feminine tank top. So be it! When Stephanie appears during my wife's absence, Stephanie is baking, vacuuming, ironing, doing the laundry, meal preparation, dead heading the roses, washing the windows. I personally do not view wearing women's clothing insulting to women. I do agree stating one looks better than his wife. Well, maybe you think you need all that baggage; clothes, makeup, false boobs, etc to emulate a woman. Well, a woman needs none of that to be a woman.

As to the other thought I had. I made sure my daughter received her college education. She has a good job. She has a master's decree. She needs no man to survive in this world. My wife is a professional and does not need me to survive. I pity women who are married to some of the cross dressers on this site when their husband's seem to treat them as persons in servitude. I do not ascribe to the tactic that a cross dressing man should shove cross dressing down the throat of a wife...take it or leave it. Wearing the clothes of a woman does not turn a man into a woman. Some MCP's remain MCP's, even when attired as a sow.

[MisterEgurl]

Over the last few months I have been encountering more and more overt, and increasingly accepted, views that crossdressing or transvestism of the male-to-female persuasion is being seen within feminist ideological circles as misogynistic and insulting. The "Drag" culture is specifically being singled out as an affront to womanhood. It's to the point where at least one Pride event is singling out "Drag Performers" as not invited and specifically barred. The growing consensus is that any such behavior where men attempt to dress, apply makeup, alter their bodies with padding and breastforms is a mean-spirited lampooning women. They assert that we are co-opting, appropriating and then mocking the feminine by taking on the appearance and exaggerated behaviors of the stereotypical woman. That as privileged males we are exercising our power to take the feminine for ourselves and define it for ourselves with no respect for cis-women. There seems to be an increasing cry in support of this notion by many leaders in the LGBT action community leadership.

Now, I don't know that this is simply a matter of confirmation bias; where I'm just good at finding what I seek, but I'm worried that as in the past, the winning of rights by one group or segment of a repressed minority infers the ostracizing of certain sub-segments that are deemed "out of line". The Civil Rights movement largely abandoned the gay/lesbian community, The Gay Rights movement left the transgendered on the curb and that now the growing (maybe awareness stage now) Transgender movement will kick off the crossdressers as "those misguided souls".

Personally, I am at a loss for words and thoughts other than to continue hiding my increasingly disapproved behavior. As someone who did believe he was a progressive feminist (if, I guess any man can really be said to be that) I am appalled to be construed as to damaging the goals of gender equity through my odd behavior (or "sick fetish" and "Debasement of women" if you follow the reasoning of this growing voice). Yet, I know how I feel and what I want to do. I guess the only option is to retreat to the closet. Oh well. Nothing changes. Be quiet, don't make eye contact and get to the back of the bus.

[Tina_gm]

I think there is a difference between the segment of feminists that are over the top, with the feminist movement itself. femnazies, if you want to call them that really don't ever seem to like much of anything. So for them, CDing is just among a very long list of things that they don't like.

If a CDer is so simply because they have an internal need for feminine expression, I don't think women in general are going to be overly offended just by them needing to do so. When a CDer acts over the top, or equates their appearance to being such a girl, or just like a real woman etc etc etc, that is when women are likely to be offended.

I don't see how CDers are getting thrown to the curb due to increased acceptance of gay or bi-sexual people. I really don't think TG people are getting thrown to the curb moreso than in the past. The ONLY thing I may see that would equate some of this is the bathroom bills, but that to me is just a certain segment who lost on gay rights so they are going after another angle.

Before the suffragette movement, no one considered women's rights much. Then, when it happened, there were some who responded harshly against it. Even though a lot were in favor of it too. Until the very recent past, TG was just those who transitioned or drag queens. That is what the public thought of it anyway and didn't particularly care much about it. Now, in just the last several years, there is the knowledge that there are more of us then was believed, and many of us who are somewhere other than TS or draq queens. Haters will hate. One day in the distant future the hating on TG will all but be gone, and the haters will move on to the next cool thing for them to hate.

[dolovewell]

I don't care what anyone thinks about me crossdressing. I don't care what men think. I don't care what women think. I don't care if its insulting. I do it for me. I do it because its fun and I enjoy it. I don't struggle with gender identity, I don't think of myself as a woman or a woman trapped in a man's body. I am definately not a feminist, I strongly believe in gender roles and that each gender has their strengths & weaknesses. I am completely content with my male life, hence why I only dress up once or twice a week. But, sometimes I just like to be a girl. If that's insulting, than so be it.

[Ressie]

I'm reading threads here and I see things like "It's hard being a woman" or "I enjoy being a girl". Talk about heels, girdles, makeup and such.

It seems to me that women are far more than makeup and heels, bras, girdles and such. We can dress as women, we can buy wigs, breast forms and padded panties. We can buy false fingernails, paint our toenails, etc. but that doesn't make us women.

Think about the real women in your life. Your mother, sisters, wife or girlfriend. Don't insult them.

It seems that women are more than makeup, heels, bras…? I hope so. It should be very clear to everyone that women aren't their clothes.

As far as "It's hard being a woman" "I enjoy being a girl", I consider this figurative language, not literal. CDs that have posted these types of phrases aren't meaning them literally. Anyone that's offended should realize this. What is being said is "it's a lot of work trying to pass as a woman" - "I love dressing and emulating a woman".

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't say "it's hard being a woman" to any woman, unless it was in the right context. You're right. We (CDs) certainly ain't real women.

I don't know if there are any women that feel insulted by crossdressing per se. I know many don't like it.

[ReineD]

It's to the point where at least one Pride event is singling out "Drag Performers" as not invited and specifically barred. The growing consensus is that any such behavior where men attempt to dress, apply makeup, alter their bodies with padding and breastforms is a mean-spirited lampooning women. They assert that we are co-opting, appropriating and then mocking the feminine by taking on the appearance and exaggerated behaviors of the stereotypical woman. That as privileged males we are exercising our power to take the feminine for ourselves and define it for ourselves with no respect for cis-women. There seems to be an increasing cry in support of this notion by many leaders in the LGBT action community leadership.

First, drag queens dress for show. Crossdressers don't. I don't think the majority of people place them in the same box.

Second, some members of the LGBTQ community seem to get offended over many things. They battle each other over labels and pronouns, the Ts don't like what some of the Ls say and vice versa, various G communities don't like other G communities, and this isn't even mentioning the T purists who want to exclude other Ts. What a war zone!

That said, there are indeed avid feminists (TERFs) who insist that birth males appropriate and co-opt womanhood when they dress, but thankfully they are not speaking for the majority of women. And now the good news: we're at the cusp of fourth wave feminism! Fourth-waves are:

1. Queer. They disagree with gender and sexuality based binaries.
2. Sex positive. No more sl*t-shaming!
3. Trans-inclusive!
4. Anti-misandrist. Misandry not a good way to combat misogyny.
5. Body positive. They don't need to conform to media ideals of beauty!
6. Digitally driven. No surprise, we're talking about Millenials.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/119524-6-things-to-know-about-4th-wave-feminism

[Kelly Whelan]

Political and social movements run into supply and demand problems when most of their primary goals have been met: universal suffrage, civil rights, end of gender and race discrimination. What we have now is more than a few movements lowering the threshold for being defined as their philosophical and political enemies.

Terms like 'racist' and 'sexist' have been so watered over the past few decades that they have lost so much of their meaning. The word used to describe Germany in the 1930s is the same one used to describe a matchmaking website that lets you specify which ethnic group you are most attracted to.

If the feminist movement (or sections thereof) think that crossdressers are misogynistic then they really have disappeared up their own arses. We're possibly the least threatening to women yet we can be turned into the enemy with some academic gymnastics and the will to keep the movement relevant.

All that being said: There is however a case to be made for those CDs who are rampantly sexual in their behaviour and their identity. On other forums I belong to I get a bit annoyed when I see a member whose pictures are the typical provocative borderline adult poses. This might tie in a bit with ReineD's definition of 4th wave feminism and it's rejection of sl*t shaming. I'm all for ending it but that's something for women to do,

[Shayna]

I can see some woman not necessarily finding it insulting, but finding it annoying that a man is trying to portray femininity without having to deal with the struggles they may go through. For some women, say in a business setting, they are always expected to present in a certain way, where as men can get away with a lot more. Some women may feel like getting to choose is not an option for them, and that presenting as female is false when you don't have to deal with systematic discrimination, lower wages, expectations of motherhood, not to mention menstrual cycles, menopause, etc.

[Scarlett398]

Dolovewell, I totally agree with everything you have posted here. I love dressing up because it's fun, exciting, exhilarating and I really enjoy it as well. I don't struggle with gender identity at all either. Each gender does have their strengths and weaknesses and I, like you, enjoy being a guy as much as being a girl. It's really fun to be able to be both! I dress up about twice a week too and really enjoy every minute of it with the exception of having to take the makeup and nail polish off completely with no evidence of residue before my gorgeous wife returns from work. I don't have any desire to kiss a man or make love to another woman other than the beauty I'm married to. I love making love to my wife. Especially for about an hour and a half including all of the foreplay and the rest. I look forward to our love making every Friday or Saturday night after a movie and dinner. I love seeing her in a stretch lace top with a matching thong on. She drives me absolutely crazy! I try to wear something sexy too. Like some black boy shorts and a long sleeved matching top. I never wear anything lacey. It's not what my wife would enjoy and I respect her wishes in and outside of the bedroom. I wish I could be open about this cross dressing that I love to do but I can't and that's just fine with me. That's it for now. Thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts...Scarlett

[immike]

I still enjoy the feel of silky pantyhose against my skin,as I slide them up my leg,then step into a short mini skirt&pull it up&pick out a silky blouse&tuck it into my skirt&silently
sneak into mothers room and borrow a pair of her heels

[Violetgray]

I'm reading threads here and I see things like "It's hard being a woman" or "I enjoy being a girl". Talk about heels, girdles, makeup and such.

I'm not suggesting that anyone stop crossdressing, but I am suggesting that people think about they are doing and what they are thinking and posting.

Being woman is much more than wearing wigs, breast forms and heels. Think about the real women in your life. Your mother, sisters, wife or girlfriend. Don't insult them.

Rant over, carry on.

Honestly I don't think this really needed to be said. I think that most people who make these comments are well aware that wigs don't make them a female and that when they use these terms, it is within the context of a femme presentation.

Even cisgender women will sometimes make these comments. Things like "Ugh, I cut my leg shaving. Being a girl sucks sometimes!"

It's understood that she's speaking about those things that come with presenting yourself in a feminine manner to the rest of our society.

[Ashley090]

It probably depends on each one person if they see it as insult or not. I don see it as insulting at all. It isnt anything bad being cd :)
I am new here and some of you maybe notices that i refere myself as girl and talk about myself as girl. I dont mean to insult gg's or anyone else. I just feel that way. Idk why, it just is like that. Maybe i am being TS or something, not sure. But again i dont think anyone here want to insult gg's. We do what we want, what we like. Maybe gg's get offenden if cd say that shd is better looking then gg or do stuff better then them. It is understable why is that, sort of. I am just being myself. And if I offended somebody in anyway,I am sorry :)

[dolovewell]

All that being said: There is however a case to be made for those CDs who are rampantly sexual in their behaviour and their identity. On other forums I belong to I get a bit annoyed when I see a member(whose) pictures are the typical provocative borderline adult poses. This might tie in a bit with ReineD's definition of 4th wave feminism and it's rejection shaming. I'm all for ending it but that's something for women to do.

I completely agree. There is a lot of stuff I see on this board and on other CD communities that makes me cringe and would just give us a bad name if an average bystander saw it. The overtly fetishized and sexualized posts are something I don't care much for. But I am not going to judge them. Everyone enjoys CDing in their own ways. I just hope for their sake, those types of cringey comments and posts stay on this board and do not come out of their mouths in real life. If someone is negative about your crossdressing, maybe you should look at yourself and see if its because you are acting inappropriate or saying inappropriate things.

[PeggyNell]

I don't know, do men get insulted when women wear pants or ball caps that typically "men" wear? To me I just happened to wear what Society has put in the " woman's" category. This is my view for this debate. I like to feel gg and sexy, just like some women feel more comfortable in men's wear. I am not talking about women jeans etc. I mean that they go to the men's section to shop for themselves.

[Ashley090]

I don't know, do men get insulted when women wear pants or ball caps that typically "men" wear?.
Totaly agreed. I dont wanna start discussion on why girls wearing pants are acceoted and guys wearing skirts are insulted. If gg's are insulted by guys dressed as girl or in female clothes then I can be insulted by girls dressed as guys. They like sneakers and cargo pants? Okay, why not. I like high heels and skirts. Its same, so what is problem?.
Whatever floats your boat ;)

[Alice Torn]

In this cruel old world, it is tough being a woman, and tough in other ways being a man, and tough being human, or animals. or insects, or fish.

[Aleca]

Yes. I did feel women we

- - - Updated - - -

Yes. I did feel women were insulted and some even defeminized when I went out in public last summer. So I began to dress down quite a bit and reduce breast size a lot to better blend in and mingle. Almost androgynous like

[Fiona123]

It hard to be a woman, I agree. I can see why a woman might be insulted. Its tough to be transgender too. In the end we girls need to be true to, and take care of ourselves.🌺

[Lorileah]

It's hard to be human in general

[Georgette_USA]

Don't know what it is like to be a CD and interface with people in public.

I think attitudes can be all over the place for everyone.

At a very mixed str8 and LGBT club. They have Drag performances. A lot of str8 Bridal parties and Birthdays attend in droves. They get a big kick out of it all.

I have quite a few of CD and TG/TS friends. Some of the str8 and lesbian women love to spend time with all of us. Same with some of the gay men. I have many gay men as friends, because I treat them with respect and they treat me the same. I will talk with any on what it means to have been Post for so many years, plus they will answer my questions on the Gay community.

I love to mix it all up, but some of my more serious TS friends look down on us at times.
I see more disparaging looks from some of the TS crowd to CDs and the Drag performers than any of the LGB people.

They have a once monthly Drag contest, and some think I should give it a try, I have a good stage presence when singing. Others think that is such a bad idea.
I get a variety of reactions when outside smoking, as I only smoke cigars.

Recently had a women love the dress I was wearing, and introduced me to her wife - her mother - her friend and her friends husband, they even bought me a drink.
Few people ask or care what my status is. Plus I love dancing with any women that wants to. Not something I can do in str8 clubs.

[Alice_2014_B]

I don't know, do men get insulted when women wear pants or ball caps that typically "men" wear? To me I just happened to wear what Society has put in the " woman's" category. This is my view for this debate. I like to feel gg and sexy, just like some women feel more comfortable in men's wear. I am not talking about women jeans etc. I mean that they go to the men's section to shop for themselves.

My thoughts exactly, Peggy.
It has just always been easier, and acceptable, for woman to flow from the women's clothing to the men's.
Regardless, I still agree.
:)

[NicoleScott]

Pants styled and cut for women's shapes are women's clothing. So let's use a different example: a woman goes to a football game (as a spectator) wearing an oversize football jersey and eyeblack under her eyes. Are men insulted? No.

Crossdressers who think crossdressing is insulting to women ought to quit crossdressing. Let's see how that works out.

[sharpestcookie]

My thoughts exactly, Peggy.
It has just always been easier, and acceptable, for woman to flow from the women's clothing to the men's.
Regardless, I still agree.
:)


It's really only been acceptable for the last century or so. The primary things that changed were
a) Women's suffrage,
b) We had to work in outdoor/industrial settings where wearing a dress was dangerous, and
c) Men gradually stopped feeling as though their masculinity was threatened by a woman wearing pants.

Part of what it appears GGs come up against is social conditioning when it comes to being with an outwardly masculine man. Like you, GGs have also been bombarded with the ideal male partner images, and none of them cover "your SO in a skirt and heels." We don't know what to do in a situation so drastically different from the expected outcome, and like most humans confronted with cognitive dissonance we end up being insulted and/or lashing out instead of supporting you.

As far as crossdressing being insulting, consider that every time we see men in women's clothing in the media, it's as the brunt of a joke, which eventually gets twisted around and absorbed into our subconscious as "man in a skirt = femininity is a joke unless it's sexy." They're making fun of you too, but we don't experience that because we aren't you.

Also, in the real-life uncanny valley, drag queens look the least like GGs. Like X-rated Disney characters, they've got big eyes, are hilarious, sometimes adorable, and are altogether not taken seriously. On the other hand, you're much more understated and GG-like; you look and act like us but...not...quite. And some of us don't know what to make of it. For more info, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley.

I hope all of that makes sense and was on-topic.

Anyway, if I can walk with my big feet into the men's shoe section without hassle, why can't you shop in the women's? It's my hope that fashion really is cyclical so that one day men can wear heels and makeup again without stigma. :daydreaming:

[Karine]

Just wanting to share my point of view.

I don't think crossdressing is an insult to women. Personally, I just admire them, just like women's fashion.
However, I have to admit that when I crossdress I tend to emulate them in a stereotypicial way, in a way I think feminine.
By the way, what is feminity by the way ? What thing is feminine , what thing is not ?
Women like men are very different. Some like to wear dress and heels, some don't. Some are very sensitive, some aren't. Some like dancing or gardening, some like mechanic or traditional boys' sports. They are all women.
So, I would say that when I crossdress I just play with makeup, heels, alter my mannerism and have fun playing the role of A woman (not the women) and I try to be in touch with a part of me that need to express and that is not "allowed" by "the social norms".

However, reading the forum, I can understand that some women can be upset if they read things like:
"When I wear heels, I feel like a woman." (does the women that do not wear heels are not women ?) but I think is just a question of semantics. The member would rather want to say "I feel in touch with this part of me, with the woman inside me (not all the women)".

It is also true that some crossdressers (not really on this forum) post "very bordeline" or porn picture of themselves. I can understand that some women can said to themselves "That is what they think about us ?"
But everybody is free and like dolovewell I don't judge. And like some women don't like to wear heels or don't like fashion, some like to be provocative or more. So, in one way, these crossdressers just emulate another type of women.

Human being come in all shapes, we are all very different. So, we have to keep in mind to not stereotype (in this case) women.