"Feeling like a woman"?

[BethGG]

I was just reading a thread in the TS section, where the topic turned to "feeling like woman", and what it means. I have conflicting thoughts on this topic, as I tend to view things from a feminist view point. When TG'd people say they want to feel like a woman, I mean to me, I am a woman, and I don't "feel" my gender. I just feel like me. I happen to have female body parts. If I were born a guy, I don't think I'd end up being transgendered, I think I'd just be a guy and not really think about it. I don't know if that's weird or what. But I happen to feel like a lot of the "female traits" women have are culturally defined, I don't think women *actually* are that way naturally, or at least not to that extent.

So TG's and GG's, what are your opinions on this? What is "feeling like a woman" and do you think your views are nature, nurture, or both? Also I'd like to just say I'm a supportive GG, and this post is just random thoughts on my mind!

[GypsyKaren]

You know Beth, I really have to agree with you. I know that for me, I just feel like me, I can't or don't put labels and such on it. I know that perhaps some may think that I try to be or present myself as female, but that is never my intent. I just go about being myself, a person, and that's all I want to be taken for.

Who really knows what it feels like to be one gender or another. Does feeling like a guy make you want to take a shower in a flannel shirt? I used to worry about such things, but they're not important to me anymore. You are what and who you are, is all.

Karen

[Julie Avery]

I can't speak to "feeling like a woman" except that as an mtf cd I enjoy feeling that I am projecting an attractive feminine appearance. As to how our ideas of what is involved in being "attractively feminine" get constructed, I think both nature and nurture are involved. Obviously fashion is a social construct. On the other hand I've seen research lately, for instance on what makes men perceive a woman's face as beautiful, which suggests that beauty may be tied with fertility, which clearly would be "nature".

[Kimberley]

Hi Beth,
I agree with you, I just am. How does one describe a feeling or emotion? I know I have definite feminine traits and thought processes just as I have male. The female ones have been suppressed (or rather beaten down) for decades. I dont switch my thinking, I just react as I am. I think that all of us have some cross gender traits in one form or another whether we are TG or not. Just my opinion based on observation of people at large. I think we TG's are just more aware of ours.

Feminism? Gloria Steinham is my heroine and Betty Friedan should be nominated for sainthood.

Kimberley

[maid phylis]

well as with everyone else to me feeling like a woman is doing what every woman would do ,when i get dressed in the morning i put on my lingerie and go to work.now since i am i male i am presenting my self as such but underneath those drab clothes i am feminine ,now thats just the physical side of me. my inner core is me and i have allways felt like a woman in that inner self we call the soul./hugs phylisanne:gorgeous: :rose2:

[Ms. Donna]

For the longest time, I didn't feel like a 'man' - however that is supposed to feel. When I really started to evaluate all of this, I concluded that if I don't feel like a man, than it must be that I feel like a woman. This was based on the assumption that one could only be a 'man' or a 'woman'. However, the more I thought about it, I realized that I couldn't feel like a woman. There are a host of experiences which help to shape the identity that 'women' have - a host of experiences which I will never have. What ever it is I was feeling, I was neither that of a man nor a woman - it was something unique and personal to me and me alone.

Our toolset is lacking in it's ability to express constructs which do not cleanly fit into the man / woman dichodomy. To echo Karen, I don't try to present myself as a woman. I present myself as me. The issue here in part is that there is no name - no 'label' - for us other than man and woman. To present as not one implies that by default you are presenting as the other. Regardless of how we may - or may not - gender ourselves, society at large will gender us is it sees fit.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[livy_m_b]

If you use a concrete literalistic definition of what "feeling like a woman" must be, you are driven to conclude that no one except a "woman" can "feel like a woman". However, to impose that definition on others' use of the phrase is to be dismissive of the feelings the person is trying to express. It's like being "slain by the spirit" to evangelicals - a lot of people use the phrase - it's not at all clear they're talking about the same thing. Ultimately, one can only listen and try to understand what the other person means when it comes to expressing his or her feelings.

[JoannaDees]

Of course it's societal. I don't know what "feeling like a woman" is, but I do know what NOT feeling as other men is. It's kind of a relationship to the world, to society, to others that is lacking for men (again society, and probably somewhat gender based). My 0.02 .

[Mona]

When I look at a woman I consider attractive, and realizing attractive is subjective, I see her as pretty or beautiful, sexy and desirable. So for me to feel like a woman I have to feel (notice I did NOT say look) pretty or beautiful, sexy and desirable.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Obviously, only someone who was female-at-birth is going to know what it feels like to "be female."

TGs who have been living full-time as women can reasonably talk about what it's feel like to live life being treated by others as a woman. But obviously they weren't raised as girls -- and for better or worse missed out on all the lessons learned about "being a woman."

I think in the TG community talk of "feeling like a woman" is sometimes a short-hand metaphor for having feelings that fall outside of what's typically allowed for "masculinity." Most people are relatively comfortable with their gender, so I don't think they think about it that much. But when you feel like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole, it's pretty natural that you'll be more aware of your gender. That's true for folks on the TG spectrum -- but it was also true for folks like Betty Friedan.

Some folks to do seem have a "fantasy gender" idea of what being a women is like. I think gender envy does often play a part in transness for CDs, TGs and TSs alike. And like a lot of grass-is-greener thinking, there's often an idealized view of what being the opposite gender is like. I've seen the same thing in some feminist writings and Norah Vincent in her "Self-Made Man" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=adahlshous-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&path=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2F 0670034665%2Fqid%3D1139440406%2Fsr%3D2-1%2Fref%3Dpd_bbs_b_2_1%3Fs%3Dbooks%26v%3Dglance%26 n%3D283155) clearly was shocked at how her experience posing as a man showed her that being a man was, in her words, "really hard."

(BTW, Beth and other SOs, while I've got some reservations about the book -- see my review (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=adahlshous-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&path=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2F 0670034665%2Fqid%3D1139440406%2Fsr%3D2-1%2Fref%3Dpd_bbs_b_2_1%3Fs%3Dbooks%26v%3Dglance%26 n%3D283155) -- I think it's extremely useful to read, since you'll get a better sense of why some of feel the need to take a gender vacation.)

But I can understand how GGs can be at best bemused when CDs, TGs, TSs talk about "being a woman" when it's clear they're only talking about a subset -- usually the fun bits -- of the experience.

[Sarah Rabbit]

Hi Beth

I think you would have to be transgendered to understand what they are talking about. I have known since I was a small child that I should have been a girl. There is something deep inside of me that tells me this is true. I suppose if was was born a full gg or a full gm I too would question what you are questioning. I suppose like Spock said to McCoy in refrence to his views on death. Without a common reference point if if hard to explain a feeling

Hugs, Sarah R :bunny:

[Jennaie]

I don't think that I use "feeling like a woman", but I have used "feeling Feminine". I suppose what feeling feminine means to me it that I can let go of some the societal expectations of what a man is supposed to be like and grasp on to some of the societal expectations of what a woman is. For me, these traits include but are not limited to: being non-confrontive or yeilding, elegant, supportive, non-violent, alluring to males or even females that find the same sex attractive, feeling pretty or beautiful and enjoying doing all the things that make me feel pretty and sexy, like doing my nails, shaving my legs, rubbing lotion all over my body, and wearing clothing that I view as feminine and attractive.

I think that every person has their own views of what feminine means to them. I also think that a very important part of feeling feminine for me is feeling like I have escaped the male role, if even for only a short period of time.

I enjoy "Feeling Feminine" so much, that I stay up way past my bedtime simply because I don't want go come out of my feminine role, and taking the clothes off is the wake-up for me, and I don't want to wake-up.

[ashlee chiffon]

in response to thinking about it...
when dressing in part *maybe just panties and skirt*, my first "feelings" aren't so strong anymore after all these years...but when dressing further, the feminine traits in me come out~ with adding heels and/or makeup/wig, hose, garters, etc...my movements become much more fem *use of hands, movement in hips, method of walking, way i sit* and i actually take on a "girlish" frame of mind...
Maybe its the same for women when they dress up...maybe we're Not so different after all!
i guess the one difference is that i don't dress for anyone to attract or impress. I dress for myself and to fulfill my need to do so. My mindset would be much different if i dressed to look good for someone else!
So many ways to approach this thread!

[ronda]

i think it is nature there are mornings i wake up and feel like i have c breast on my chest and i feel so fem i can't explain how that feels but i don't feel my normal male self i do not wake up in the morning and feel male i just feel like me. i guess if you don't have changes with in you don't feel male or female you just feel like you :) :)

[melissacd]

Perhaps the distinction is one of biology and gender. A transexual is stating that they have a feeling that their biology is incorrect whereas a CD/TV does not have a problem with biology but rather wants to be able to express themselves in ways that are culturally reserved for biological females.

A transexual has an intrinsic feeling that the overall plumbing is wrong and when that is corrected as best as modern science will allow they have a feeling of rightness which they express as "feeling like a woman". Their comment is just a statement that they feel like they have corrected a mistake.

With cross dressers they have a different feeling. This feeling is related to gender not biology. They recognize within themselves that there is a range of behaviour that they want to express, but that society would prefer that they do not. The spectrum for cross dressers is wide and varied, however, it takes the form of emotional, decorative, expressive, relational, interactive, intuitive modes that are considered normal for females and not normal or acceptable for males. The reality is that men and women are more alike than our bipolar society allows for. While not all men want to take it to the extreme of dressing in women's clothes, I believe that a large percentage of men do want to express the more classically feminine part of their personalities. Men and women have both a masculine and feminine personality component. In our society women are more and more able to express their masculine component. Cross dressers are just saying they want the same right. Most cross dressers only want the wider range of expression, however, they are comfortable with their assigned biology.

Transexuals on the other hand want to express their feminine component and also want their biology to match their expression, hence the whole feel like a woman thing. Feeling like a woman is their way of saying the opposite of how their assigned biology feels. I do not know how else, in our limited language, that you might express that sentiment.

Have I confused things ??? :p

[Helen MC]

I am I suppose on the 101 level of the CD/TV ladder. I do not go outdoors dressed, I would not "pass" I do not wear make-up , nor a gaff, nor breast forms nor a wig, but do wear panties under my male trousers every day as I have done for decades and at home I do dress but am aware that I am a man with the genitals thereof and have never had any desire to have GRS and I still feel sexual attraction towards women. I am however not a butch and macho male, I never have been even as a kid and I am well aware of the more female side of my persona. I am not competitive nor agressive, am happy to share, to wait my turn and will try to achieve a modus vivendi rather than go for victory, you can see why I hate most sports etc.

I have met biological women who are as macho as you can get, not bull dyke lesbians, though I know quite a few of those but hetero women but in attitude and approach as masculine as the most Bravura Bull CEO of a top 100 Business.

So as regards "feeling like a woman" I cannot say as that can mean many different things to many different people, but I do have and can comprehend my female side and I am at ease with it.

[livy_m_b]

The reality is that men and women are more alike than our bipolar society allows for.



We should paste this on our mirrors, wear it in our phylacteries, repeat it in the depths of the night.

There appear to be statistical differences between men and women in some areas, but statistical differences notwithstanding, for almost any non-biological trait that men think is uniquely masculine and for almost any non-biological trait women think is uniquely feminine, there are individual women and men respectively who have that trait to the same or a greater degree. The percentage of the population having that trait to that degree may be less, or greater, depending on whether one is male or female, but we share almost all of the same traits. If some choose to express a sense of similarity by saying they feel like a woman, or that they feel like a man, we shouldn't be so surprised.

[Rachel Ann]

Here's how I put it in my "coming out" post at another forum:

"Obviously, I haven’t led a woman’s life or known a woman’s pain, so you could fairly say that I’m 'skimming the cream' or 'cherry picking' here. I prefer to say that, after paying a lifetime’s worth of 'man dues' (taking care of my family, etc.), I get to be Rachel for my reward. In any case, I now know what it is to fall in love with a dress or a pair of shoes, and I will never again say 'Honey, what's taking you so long?'. :)

"So for now, Rachel’s a bit stereotyped and idealized as a woman, but I hope that she grows in to more of a 'warts and all' woman over time. So far she can understand feminism in an abstract way but has no way to resonate emotionally with it. Another thing: I’m 60, but if you subtract the time that Rachel’s been locked away in my unconscious mind, she’s still 19 or 20. Hence, she is more romantic and preoccupied with things like makeup, hair and clothes than a more mature woman usually is.

"Meanwhile, she just needs more time and space in the light of day to grow and spread her wings."

[BethGG]

Interesting replies :)

[Penny]

"Feeling like a woman" is not literal but the feeling derived from behaving like a woman or how I perceive she would behave either inheritly or as a result of social training. For example, nature provides a motherly instinct early on by fostering a natural desire for girls to play with dolls and this occurs long before puberty. So with boys, it's trucks and car. But what happens, as was in my case, when someone like me wants to play with dolls? The other boys laughed and the kindergarden teacher redirected me to the place that matched my physical gender. Because I needed to fit in, I subconciously surpressed those feelings and also because I have a sufficiently male gendered brain, I was able to adjust. This in itself was both bad and good. On one hand it deprived the nurturing of my feminity and perhaps developement of a female vocabulry (I.e. divine, beautful, darling, wonderful ect.) On the other hand, it saved me from being labled as a freek, degerate or gay. As puberty approached at around age 11 and I wondered what was happening to me, I experimented trying of female artles of clothing and for me, it awakened those surpressed feelings previously self imposed and thus my gender dysphoria (I'm a heterosexual male, having a predominanting male sex brain with a predominant female gender brain). So distress arrises with the desire to "feel like a woman" my feminine expression is achieved through crossdressing which my male sex brain says threatens my masculinity (I.e. acting feminine promotes being mislabled as gay or a beer can falls from the sky and crushes you).
When my first son was born, I took off work for 6 months to care for and bond with him (probably a feminine instinct). Later on when my first wife left me,she gave me custody and was in fact both mother and father. But the motherly gender role did not make me "feel like a woman" because I was socially not permitted to express my feminity. In other words, theatricaly speeking, I got the part but couldn't play it to my satisfaction, because the director quit in kindergarden, I had no wardrobe and makeup was out of the question. But for sure, I had an audience.
So when I view a GG it triggers usually one of 3 responses. I'd like to be in her shoes (feminine emotions, experiences demeanor ect) , feel what she feels and of course, look like her. Or I'd like to get in her pants (self explanitory)but also knowing that would get me into a whole lot of trouble. Finally, my response is nothing which I can assure you, is no compliment.

What would be your reaction to a two man conversation in The Mens Warehouse
"Bill, isn't that pinstriped suite just devine? Wouldn't it look darling with the blue shirt?
and hevenly with this tie?)?

THE MIRROR

Seeing what I see
oh, could this be me

Acting like I should
if only that i could

[TracyDeluxe]

I've been reading this thread with interest, and finally felt like adding my 0.02

I have woken up most of my life, and gone to sleep also, not feeling like a woman, and not feeling like a man, either. The question/feelings at those times has been, rather, "What am I, a woman or a man?" And I still don't know, although I have finally decided that I am just me, whatever that is. But I am not sure I am happy with that because, in most cases, that type of "me" is not accepted, in this society, at least. And this is the only society I have.

At various times, I have been fully accepted into women's groups (makeover sessions, AA "women only" groups, etc.), but even though the girls accepted me into their groups, I have never been comfortable there, always feeling like an imposter (Note!! They knew I was TG before letting me in their groups/parties, I was not there under false credentials!) Not totally dissimillar (sp) to how I felt while in a group of men, back when I was living as a man. Just NEVER fitting in, whether with men or women.

So I don't think I can ever "feel like a woman", except maybe when checking out the produce in the supermarket, LOL!

But there ARE times when I "feel feminine"! And those are the best times of all. That's when I feel most like "me".

I understand GG's saying that CD's/TG's/TS's can never really feel like a woman, I understand that. That you don't "feel" like a woman, you just feel like you; my main therapist said the same thing, and I understand, I think, what you are saying. That's the deal with me, though (and others like me?), I NEVER, OR HARDLY EVER feel like "me", because I don't know how "me" is supposed to feel! Should I feel like a man, or a woman, or a TG, or a fag, or a sissy, or what??

So, to any GG's that object to "us" saying that we feel like a woman, how would you like us to feel??

[Ranee Daze]

Look at just about any other species on this planet, and I am sure when we finally meet them from beyond this planet, and it is usually the male with the long slinky feathers, the more elaborate headpiece, beek, flashier scales etc. I use this to explain my fascination with "dressing" and my boredom with the "male" construct as it is currently supported by fashion. A very short look back in history to say 18th century Europe and we see men as coiffed, primped and adorned in fashion equal to women. I really believe that men are the ones naturally pretty and that the current "male" fashion construct goes against that natural instinct. I think that it may be at the root of alot of macho anger and frustration. Pretty is really what normal should be for men.
Men fear softness, gentility, beauty, colour because they fear being seen as homosexual. As we all know, the majority of we dressers are hetero and probably better lovers for our acceptance of our "feminine" natures. Pity!

All that said I suspect that my mother secretly wanted girls and may have dressed us as little dollies pre-memory, pre-school. She sure wanted my two sons to wear that frilly baptism dress when they were Christened! I suspect that there is some nurture going on as well from the fact that mommy was a hairdresser and from her and clients as well I saw a revolving palette of hair colour and style through the sixties.

Another element, which is diminishing in this age of same-sex marriage and such, is the illicit nature of the pursuit. I don't know about others, but as I relax and dress better and am more accepted in public, part of the thrill, the danger of getting caught, is easing. Not to worry, I've replaced that with joy coming from the freedom I have to dress more. It's still there, the danger, just less, or different than before. I recently shared an elevator with someone who I know very well in life as a male who looked right at me, asked which floor I wanted and didn';t bat an eyelash of recognition. I think she liked my purse actually! Well, I really got a jolt of energy out of that encounter.

Finally, what makes me feel like a woman? Well inside I am what the current social construct of gender calls womanly. When I bring out those qualities, right out front it releases an incredible energy, a truly positive force and I am happier. Would I dress 24/7? Probably not. Then again I really like brandy, but I'm not having it for every breakfast. I manage my dressing by doing it well once a month or so. The whole ritual of bathing in scented water, shaving away the "manly", putting on foundation then having my hair, nails and makeup done is a celebration of an essential part of my character. It rejuvenates me to nourish and exercise that part of me which I have come to love so much! Putting "Thommie" in the drawer for a few hours per month and letting Ranee dance about? Pure bliss!

[ashlee chiffon]

reading these posts makes me realize that there are sooo many perceptions of even the simplist of daily behavior...and the perceptions span individual life circumstances...i think even a tg who has a sex change operation in their teens and lives their life As a woman, still never knows childbirth, physical pms, vaginal issues, nursing and nuturing a baby *well, at least the nursing part*, menopause, and other "Womans' lifestyle issues" that we, as men, can never experience because we simply...don't have womens natural born bodies!.
That is not to say that we cannot try to find the part of womanhood that we relate to the most and achieve some of our dreams in this regard.
The low end of this scale is the dressing and that is such a small part of womanhood, as i understand the GG's posts on this topic. Any degree of feminization past dressing is one step closer to realizing the "woman" inside. Each of us knows our limits of those degrees and that is how our knowledge of womanhood comes to be. I would never change my sex, but i have many times wished i could be a member of the fairer sex. To experience their bodies and know their world as they know it! I just like *i.e.love* Women and all they are about! This dressing is as close as i'll ever get, i know that, but its fun to ....fantasize!!!

[Rachel Ann]

The less sexualized this gets, the more "real" it feels. When I thought of myself as "just a guy", things like panties or painted toenails were erotic triggers. Now that they are part of my "everyday skin", and not something that I react to libidinously, I feel much more authentic as a feminine being.

I hope that makes sense.

Rachel xxx

[melissacd]

Yes I agree there is something about immersing oneself into feminine things that makes one feel more authentic. Excellent point.

[Aileen]

I'm just a CDer and I have no desire to become a woman. I don't insist that anyone use feminine pronouns with me, and I even use my own male name here. But I would like to think that I feel a little bit of what some women feel when I put on a cute twirly dress and pose for the camera.

I seldom feel like a man because I don't like doing macho things. But I often feel like a guy, because I like to wear comfortable clothing and to be a slob.

I wrote a story called "The Magic of Vintage Dresses" about a crossdresser who could magically become a woman for a while by trying on various dresses, and I tried to include the sort of feelings that I believe women feel, at times. There was one review that I got, that I was proud of, because I'm pretty sure it came from a GG:

"As I read you story, I became enraptured as the story progressed into what you were trying to addressed, it pulled me in to the story theme and at the end, I could relate to everything the woman (man) was trying to convey. I found myself feeling everything your characters felt, especially how they felt when being in a position of feeling like a woman. It really is how we feel!!"

[LizBeth]

I was just reading a thread in the TS section, where the topic turned to "feeling like woman", and what it means. I have conflicting thoughts on this topic, as I tend to view things from a feminist view point. When TG'd people say they want to feel like a woman, I mean to me, I am a woman, and I don't "feel" my gender. I just feel like me. I happen to have female body parts. If I were born a guy, I don't think I'd end up being transgendered, I think I'd just be a guy and not really think about it. I don't know if that's weird or what. But I happen to feel like a lot of the "female traits" women have are culturally defined, I don't think women *actually* are that way naturally, or at least not to that extent.

So TG's and GG's, what are your opinions on this? What is "feeling like a woman" and do you think your views are nature, nurture, or both? Also I'd like to just say I'm a supportive GG, and this post is just random thoughts on my mind! how do you post a subject on this page ?

[BethGG]

"Feeling like a woman" is not literal but the feeling derived from behaving like a woman or how I perceive she would behave either inheritly or as a result of social training. For example, nature provides a motherly instinct early on by fostering a natural desire for girls to play with dolls and this occurs long before puberty. So with boys, it's trucks and car. But what happens, as was in my case, when someone like me wants to play with dolls?
But see in this case, I don't think women really have more of a "nurturing" sense then men, I think it's a cultural thing. Girls are given dolls before they know what to choose, and boys are given little cars/trucks before they can either. I mean if you think about it, it's not like girls don't drive, why wouldn't they be given toy cars at the same rate?? When I was little I loved "boys" toys and didn't care for fake baby dolls :p Then again I've never wanted kids lol. Anyway, ideally I think toys/colors should not be gendered, I think kids should be given whatever they want to play with!

Tracydeluxe- I hope you understand I'm not trying to tell you/others how to feel, I mean I'm not TG'd so I could never truely understand what it feels like(though I can be as supportive as possible). I'm not trying to say "Men in dresses can't know what it's like to be a woman", I'm saying what exactly IS feeling like a woman to you? I guess I'm just not ultra girly so to me I have sort of a androgynous personality. Also it bothers me when people say doing womanly things and it's actually culturally defined stereotypes.

[Julie Avery]

there ARE times when I "feel feminine"! And those are the best times of all. That's when I feel most like "me".


To me, Tracy's answer was very moving. Sorry to have snipped so much of it, in order to highlight what I think is a real gem of a sentence.

[Jennaie]

I was just reading a thread in the TS section, where the topic turned to "feeling like woman", and what it means. I have conflicting thoughts on this topic, as I tend to view things from a feminist view point. When TG'd people say they want to feel like a woman, I mean to me, I am a woman, and I don't "feel" my gender. I just feel like me. I happen to have female body parts. If I were born a guy, I don't think I'd end up being transgendered, I think I'd just be a guy and not really think about it. I don't know if that's weird or what. But I happen to feel like a lot of the "female traits" women have are culturally defined, I don't think women *actually* are that way naturally, or at least not to that extent.

So TG's and GG's, what are your opinions on this? What is "feeling like a woman" and do you think your views are nature, nurture, or both? Also I'd like to just say I'm a supportive GG, and this post is just random thoughts on my mind!

I just read a thread by Dawn/David in the F to M section. Just below her name it said, "GG that likes feeling like a Male". suppose it all goes both ways. I certailnly understand what she is talking about, because I see it the from the other side.

[Deborah]

I've been pondering this question for awhile. I don't think anybody can feel like a woman because in reality they don't know what a woman feels.
I may have slipped up a few times and said i feel female or feel like a women, but as i thought long and hard about it i can say this. I suppose instead of saying woman one should say girly perhaps. When a CD or TS ect is having one of those moments or prolonged moments perhaps they are having the same feelings or traits as women do. Loving, tender, soft, maternal or perhaps a better all encompassing phrase feminine.
I'm not saying a male can't have the loving, tender or soft and numerous other feelings, but there is a difference in intensity i'm sure.

[BethGG]

When a CD or TS ect is having one of those moments or prolonged moments perhaps they are having the same feelings or traits as women do. Loving, tender, soft, maternal or perhaps a better all encompassing phrase feminine.
I'm not saying a male can't have the loving, tender or soft and numerous other feelings, but there is a difference in intensity i'm sure.
See stuff like that, I think we're just brought up to see things that way. I'm not maternal and "tender", and I think there are many women who aren't as well. I think a man or woman having a child should feel loving towards it, and I don't think a man would feel any less, except for that our society teaches it's ok not to.

[livy_m_b]

At a bookstore this evening, I ran across this book:

On Female Body Experience : "Throwing Like a Girl" and Other Essays (Studies in Feminist Philosophy) (Paperback)
by Iris Marion Young

Book Description (courtesy of Amazon)
Written over a span of more than two decades, the essays by Iris Marion Young collected in this volume describe diverse aspects of women's lived body experience in modern Western societies. Drawing on the ideas of several twentieth century continental philosophers--including Simone deBeauvoir, Martin Heidegger, Luce Irigaray, Julia Kristeva, and Maurice Merleau-Ponty--Young constructs rigorous analytic categories for interpreting embodied subjectivity. The essays combine theoretical description of experience with normative evaluation of the unjust constraints on their freedom and opportunity that continue to burden many women.

The lead essay rethinks the purpose of the category of "gender" for feminist theory, after important debates have questioned its usefulness. Other essays include reflection on the meaning of being at home and the need for privacy in old age residences as well as essays that analyze aspects of the experience of women and girls that have received little attention even in feminist theory--such as the sexuality of breasts, or menstruation as punctuation in a woman's life story. Young describes the phenomenology of moving in a pregnant body and the tactile pleasures of clothing.



The reason I'm posting it is because it addresses some aspects of bodily experiences such as being a person with breasts and tactile pleasures of clothing along with other more biological matters such as menstruation, pregnancy, etc. Some of these experiences flow directly from the body or from clothing so anyone who achieves a feminine body or wears feminine clothing should be able to "feel like a woman" in respect for example of having breasts, female fat deposits, the tactile pleasures of clothing etc. Some of the embodied aspects of course will never be shared, but that doesn't mean that people can't empathize to some degree anyhow.

Beyond that there are psychological aspects relating to nurture etc. To some extent these are also body related - the cycling of hormones, the release of oxytocin at birth, etc. Some of these can also be simulated by appropriate treatments. But as others have pointed out, to some extent these psychological aspects are also socially determined. If you accept that some people have cross-wired brains, it's not too great a leap to imagine that some of the psychological aspects of feeling also approximate feelings of typical members having that brain sex.

All that said, I do agree we're fundamentally very much alike and can expect to share a lot of common feelings which we might learn to express in a common language, and also agree that social structures have made it difficult to recognize how much we have in common.

[Deborah]

See stuff like that, I think we're just brought up to see things that way. I'm not maternal and "tender", and I think there are many women who aren't as well. I think a man or woman having a child should feel loving towards it, and I don't think a man would feel any less, except for that our society teaches it's ok not to.

In the ideal world yes. Most women i know are like that. There may be a few such as yourself who aren't. The ratio is in favor against you though. Men who aren't loving towards their kids shouldn't have kids imho. Society says go watch a stupid football game instead. :rolleyes:

[Penny]

But see in this case, I don't think women really have more of a "nurturing" sense then men, I think it's a cultural thing. Girls are given dolls before they know what to choose, and boys are given little cars/trucks before they can either. I mean if you think about it, it's not like girls don't drive, why wouldn't they be given toy cars at the same rate?? When I was little I loved "boys" toys and didn't care for fake baby dolls :p Then again I've never wanted kids lol. Anyway, ideally I think toys/colors should not be gendered, I think kids should be given whatever they want to play with!

Tracydeluxe- I hope you understand I'm not trying to tell you/others how to feel, I mean I'm not TG'd so I could never truely understand what it feels like(though I can be as supportive as possible). I'm not trying to say "Men in dresses can't know what it's like to be a woman", I'm saying what exactly IS feeling like a woman to you? I guess I'm just not ultra girly so to me I have sort of a androgynous personality. Also it bothers me when people say doing womanly things and it's actually culturally defined stereotypes.

Beth, there are distinct clinicly documented differences between males and
females at birth; clinical studies conducted at intial social interaction between children also indicate that there are suggnicant differences between males and females reguarding natural traits (Brain Gender) and behavior patterns(Brain Sex). If left alone to pick their toys, girls will pick
certain toys such as dolls and boys will pick certain toys like trucks. The
girls will gather in a small area to play while the boys will be all over the place. This is usually true 9 7% of the time because most children posess
suffcient brain gender and brain sex that matches their physical sex. The
other apx 3% are those individuals who's physical sex, brain gender and brain sex are mismatched to a degree and as proof of that, here we are!
Adults can only influnce brain sex. As a child you mentioned that you didn't like playing with dolls. No matter how much you could have been forced to play with them, it wouldn't have altered your dislike for dolls. Your own brain
would have had to that through one of your other traits or behavior patters (i.e. I'll like playing with those stupid doll just as long as I can comb their hair real hard and watch it fall out). I may have to pay taxes but still don't like
it and no matter how much or how l pay, I still don't like it. And no matter how much I get back, I still won't like it.

[Claudia5]

Interesting thread!

Going back to Beth’s original post I’d say that in a way what she suggests should be true for everyone. Ultimately I can only know what it feels like to be me and by that I’m expressing my individuality rather than my classification. IMO, When closely examined so much of the classification around gender & sexual orientation runs through the fingers like so much sand. But then classification is such a “bloke” thing.. LOL :cheeky:

Women are under a lot of pressure to behave in certain ways, to be the good wife/ mother/ daughter, to be supportive & nurturing. To put themselves 2nd. The gender pay gap as revealed in Britain this week is a proof that women need feminism and to continue to kick against gender stereotypes.

I don’t know if I’ve ever expressed the view of “feeling like a woman”. My individualism is that at a certain level (i.e. the core of my being :cheeky: ) I “am” a woman but no amount of clothes, surgery, hormones etc. are going to make me any more a woman on the outside than I am already because somehow that misses the point. Plus, like Beth there are huge amounts about me that I don’t see as relating to my physical gender (or my core gender come to that).

There’s tons & tons more one could write in this but I’ll spare you the novel :cheeky:

Kisses

claudia

[Rachel Ann]

Great thread, Beth!


... I don't "feel" my gender. I just feel like me. ... What is "feeling like a woman" ... ?
I think that there is a heightened self-awareness (self-consciousness?) that goes with "changing modes". And for most of us (MtFs), "girl mode" is a relative novelty, so naturally we are more focused on the total experience than when in the (far more familiar) "boy mode".

This isn't just gender-linked, we all have different "selves" that we present, say, in the office as opposed to at home, or at a party.

I can't say that I know what it is to "feel like a woman", never having been one, but I do know what it is like to feel feminine!



See stuff like that, I think we're just brought up to see things that way. I'm not maternal and "tender", and I think there are many women who aren't as well.
Yes, but having been brought up as a man I have had enormous difficulty connecting with my feelings and emotions, with being nurturing, caring, and forgiving. Even if those are "stereotypical" traits assigned to women, the "payoff" of being TG for me is largely that I am finally able to give myself permission to do/be those things. Whether it's about nature or nurture is moot - it's just the way it is for me!

Why crossdressing is the way to bring out that part of myself I don't know. I suppose that it could be done by meditation or something, but dressing is what works for me.

Rachel xxx

[Sarah Rabbit]

reading these posts makes me realize that there are sooo many perceptions of even the simplist of daily behavior...and the perceptions span individual life circumstances...i think even a tg who has a sex change operation in their teens and lives their life As a woman, still never knows childbirth, physical pms, vaginal issues, nursing and nuturing a baby *well, at least the nursing part*, menopause, and other "Womans' lifestyle issues" that we, as men, can never experience because we simply...don't have womens natural born bodies!.
That is not to say that we cannot try to find the part of womanhood that we relate to the most and achieve some of our dreams in this regard.
The low end of this scale is the dressing and that is such a small part of womanhood, as i understand the GG's posts on this topic. Any degree of feminization past dressing is one step closer to realizing the "woman" inside. Each of us knows our limits of those degrees and that is how our knowledge of womanhood comes to be. I would never change my sex, but i have many times wished i could be a member of the fairer sex. To experience their bodies and know their world as they know it! I just like *i.e.love* Women and all they are about! This dressing is as close as i'll ever get, i know that, but its fun to ....fantasize!!!

Correct, I do not have the Periods, chidbirth, nurturing, menopause, and what have you. But how do you explain that inate feeling since very early childhood that things are not what there suppose to be??

Hugs, Sarah R :bunny:

[TGMarla]

Great topic. Um, where to start? Okay....
I happen to feel like a lot of the "female traits" women have are culturally defined....I agree with this statement only partially. Studies have shown defined differences in the thought patterns and physical characteristics between males and females even from early ages. I'm not talking about the obvious physical differences, but about mannerisms and the way the two genders physically do things. But to some degree, our secondary sexual characteristics define our mental being as well. Think about it, and you'll see what I mean.
I don't think women really have more of a "nurturing" sense then men, I think it's a cultural thingI disagree with this statement. It's not a matter of cultural brainwashing here. Women are generally more nurturing than men are. It's in other areas that the learned behavior comes in. But little girls tend to gravitate towards toys that are generally recognized as "girl toys", and boys do the same with the "boy toys". In studies that do not force any specific behavior, where a cultural bias is eliminated, the different genders tend to get in line much with our present cultural norms.

Now, that's not to say that BethGG doesn't have a good point, though. Any and all behaviors can be learned. I learned to love wearing women's clothing, for instance. There are women who learn to drive trucks and pour concrete. I wash dishes now and then. But were I to make the statement that I "feel like a woman", I think that it could only be speculation as to what it would feel like at that moment had I been anatomically a female. And that speculation is not unfair. It's a statement made when one feels quite differently than he has at other times. We as men are attuned to what is feminine in our worlds. When that sense of femininity becomes extrememly strong, we might utter such a statement.

And heck, even it it is only some culturally derived state of being, it's one that is generally denied to males in our society. So it's still quite a pleasure to get to the point where one "feels like a woman." No harm, no foul.

[Aileen]

I remember hearing on the radio a FtM TG was saying she/he sees men on the subway, and they just don't seem to appreciate how great it is to be a man and to wear a tie. As you can imagine, this is mystifying to me, because women can wear ties if they want to. And of course I hate wearing a tie.

[Julie Avery]

Interesting thought on the ties, Alan. The women I've seen wearing ties I have assumed were trying to look "campy", not male. And they are horrible contraptions indeed (ties, not women).

[Aileen]

Julia Roberts was wearing a tie and what looked like a man's shirt in that movie "Notting Hill".

[Sophia Rearen]

I feel bitchy every now and then! Does this count?

Just some much needed comic relief, sorry couldn't resist.

[Julie Avery]

:evilbegon
I feel bitchy every now and then! Does this count?

Just some much needed comic relief, sorry couldn't resist.

:evilbegon

lol

[ashlee chiffon]

the fact that i have only worn them on few occassions...not that i hate wearing them so much...just no reason...i seldom wear suits or sport coats..
i guess a lot of women feel the same way about bras...though i Luvvv them!
"its a strange,strange world...Master Jack!"

[Jodie_Lynn]

Wow, so many well thought out and meaningful replies. I hesitate to throw in my comments :blushing: And for me, MelissaCD said it best.

All my life I have had people (male and female) tell me "You're not like other guys". For a long, long time that bothered me until I realized that it was true. I wasn't interested in many of the "traditional" male pasttimes like football or baseball, or tinkering with my car. At the same time, many of my closest friends were females who I felt 'at ease' with. Not that we would sit and discuss typical 'girly' things with, but who would ask my opinion about guys and 'guy ways of thinking'.

Its kind of difficult to express, but I've always felt a little of BOTH genders: I can and am the fierce protector of my family, but at the same time, I can empathize with my daughters grief and tears over a dead hamster.

I think that "society" has determined what the roles of men and women are >>supposed to<< be, and for those of us who fall outside those parameters (whether gay, Bi, Lesbian, TG/CD/TS, or whatever I've forgotten), we are considered 'odd' because we don't fit our assigned roles.

For example, my wife never wanted to be a mom. No real reaon given except for "I wouldn't be good at it". After our daughter was born, she proved herself wrong and became a very good mother. Although she is still uncomfortable around babies and small children, while I love to hold them and play with them. In this, we each express aspects and attitudes of the opposite gender: SHE is the one who is supposed to 'ooh and aah' over a newborn, while the guys are supposed to slap each other on the back and say "Atta Boy!"

When I first began trying on womens clothes, it was a purely erotic experience. Now, when I dress, it is like I am free to express the side of myself that I was conditioned to think was "not for you". My wife has noticed that when "Jodie-Lynn" is about the house, I am more relaxed, more conversational, more emotionally expressive, and more helpful around than when I am just "Joe".

I'm not sure if this thread is the right venue for expresssing one's beliefs, but I am a firm believer in re-incarnation, and I know I have lived as a woman before. I think, ideally, that to be truly human, one must encompass both the masculine and the feminine in order to be one whole being.


Sorry, I'll get off the soapbox now. Thanks for listening.

~Jodie-Lynn

[Rachel Ann]

Just a couple of more thoughts ...

Traits, sex-linked or not, inherent or learned, are still just average tendencies. There are always exceptions. Example: The population at large tends to be heterosexual, but that doesn't mean that everybody is!

When in drab, I usually wear a jacket and tie even when I don't have to, because people tend to treat you better when you are better-dressed. And if your shirt collar is the right size, there is nothing uncomfortable about wearing a tie.

[ashlee chiffon]

true for you Rachael, but i spent 18 years as a commercial diver...with a wet suit choking my neck...i just Hate stuff around my neck, fem or not..
don't even feel comfortible in a turtleneck..
but that's just me...

[ToyGirl]

Anyone that isnt raised perfectly , that doesnt have perfect hormone levels , that has some sort of medical condition that effects the reproductive system , to those born with imperfect genitals. To say anyone that has one or more of those problems can never feel like a 'real' man or woman is just elitist and wrong.

[Falcor]

As the response to this thread have been splendid and thoughtful,my contribution is fairly basic,I don't know how I feel.As I grew older and gathered in my position on this planet,I remain oblivious to how I feel,either as a man or my female persona.Nevertheless I'm generally a gentle happy soul,who at times feels more fem than male and at other times Ifeel rather pathetic,confusion is a bitch of a ghost that will haunt me forever,although the pleasureable moments of feminine bliss are powerfull and sweet and flow deeply within me...always.
falxx

[Aileen]

I like to think of it as the way Maria feels when she sings "I Feel Pretty."

[Sarahgurl371]

I guess I just feel like me. I don't dress to feel like a women. I just dress because I want to. I like the way I look, of course, I wish I looked better.

On the other hand my wife says she feels like a women. I certainlly do not feel like a man. At least when I look into myself, I don't identify with the personality traits that most identify as masculine. And I tend to identify with commonly characterized feminine traits within myself. I guess I feel a little of both. Make any sense?

[cdsheri6977]

wow i have been reading all the threads in here for about a week now and im starting to think that the frist problem is labels, when i came here and joined i thought i knew alot more then i did or do, and every one has me rethinking just who i am or what i em, and the bigest problam i am finding is the labels.

i love to look and act like what i am told is a woman/girl
as a woman/girl i want to feel and look sexy
as a woman/girl i want others to think of me as a woman/girl
as a woman/girl i want to be treated like woman/girl
but im not a woman/girl
i was as i am told born as a man/boy
and as a man/boy i sould not want to look like i want to look
as a man/boy its ok to feel sexy but not in the way i want or do
as a man/boy i sould want others to look at me as a MAN
but i dont want what most man/boys want

i always thought i was a crossdresser but after reading some things on other sites befor i came here i had to ask myself am i?
wow now i think im TG or could i be TV as i do like the sex that come with dressing the way i do?
or am i TS as i really do want to be a woman but then do i?

i do know that i love sheri and how i feel as sheri, i know that sheri has many side to her and not all of them known to me just yet as sheri has never had the freedom to run free and open.
as todd its not that i dont like my self cause i do like todd he takes care of his kids made sure he had a retiremimt plan in place, made sure his kids would have something after his is gone, i have had lots of fun, been to most of the places i wanted to go to, raised good kids, but todd knows that he is sheri, likes sheri, want to be seen as sheri, so is sheri/todd is TG?TV?TS?CD?

TO MUCH GRAY

maybe im all of the above.

im learning that i am who i am and if others need a label to know, will thay can give me the label that make them feel ok with it or not, and i will label myself as ME till some one comes up with something that dont have so much gray to it.

ill just be me!

thank hun for askin this one.

and thanks girls for all the help so far that you have givin me, you all know who you are and you have givin me lots to think about. and its not what label to put on me.

sheri:doll:

[Nita]

I am Nita.A man who dresses in womesn clothes.A man who always wanted to be a woman.A man who always wanted a sex change...but knew i would never go there.So now i accept Nita as a part of me.And now Nita is my "fem" side.So...on the scale of one to ten...am i "Fem" ..."weird" ... something else? You tell me, I dress as a woman, i Love all things fem...i think fem....i wonder what a dick would be like in my mouth....have never gone there...but am curious....so where do i fit?
I dress male for work....an they all know me as male....but i dream dresses an heels...so where do i fit?
You tell me....
Nita


*******
I am Nita. And I was born Steve. Steve always was...Nita came when I was 13.After 13, Steve never...Never could escape Nita. I dreamed of her....I dreamed of becoming her...but never made the "transition".I never will.But Nita lives.She is as much a part of me as breathing is.So you tell me...am I "fem"?Do I think "fem" ??? hmmm
Nita

[melissacd]

I certainlly do not feel like a man. At least when I look into myself, I don't identify with the personality traits that most identify as masculine. And I tend to identify with commonly characterized feminine traits within myself. I guess I feel a little of both. Make any sense?

Tammy,

It makes a great deal of sense. We are trying to characterize feeling like a man or like a woman as if they were static identifiable states. The fact is they aren't. We belong to a species that has two distinct easily identifiable biological states, male and female. Even within that biology there can be confusion due to variance in genetics that cause traits such as androgyny and hermaphrodism.

Add to this that the human genome is so complex that it has taken a great deal of computing power and great human minds to partially map it's many combinations and permutaions.

Add to this the influence of millions of years of evolution that has created a reptilian brain stem, that can be modified by the old brain, that can be further modified by the neo cortex.

Add to that the infinite varieties of cultures, upbringings and personal life experiences.

With all those variables, it is a wonder that we can feel like anything, well - except ourselves. All any of us knows is our own personal feeling of what it is like to be us. What does it feel like to be a man or a woman, those are just mental constructs.

For example, I know to some extent what it feels like to live in my body. I know that I have some biological attributes that define me within my reproductive role. This reproductive construct is intrepreted by social convention to extend to defining my role within society. From a biological standpoint this has evolved to aid the mating and reproducing process. We construct methods to signal to prospective mates that we are prospective mates. The idea is to make it simple to be biologically successful as a species so humans have amplified the differences.

Now we add to all of this the fact that women have a new variability of clothing, that men can be attracted to men and women can be attracted to women and now we started to mess up the original plan. Further added to the mix are men who like being men, but they also like adorning themselves as women and then there are men and women who don't like their assigned gender and then .... there are men who like their gender and like men but don't like to adorn themselves like men...ah yes and then there are men and women who like men and women...and...arghhh...gasp...ahhhh....

Well you can see, the variability is infinite. What does it feel like to be a man or a woman? Because the soup is made of so many ingredients, who really knows. So perhaps at the end of the day all we can really say is we as cross dressers happen to value certain things that at the present moment our western society deems to be appropriate for females and inappropriate for males. We need to recognize that this is just a societal construction. It is a view not an absolute never changing truth. We, as feeling thinking diverse humans can choose to see the world in any way we want to. The world can certainly make us feel uncomfortable for our choices, but they are still our choices. In the end we choose. In the end we have to live our own personal truth and feel good about our uniqueness.

So it is not about how it feels to be anything but who we are.

Huggs
Melissa